The news story today will all be about numbers.. The remainers will no doubt say 2 million attended and the brexireers will say around 150000... It will then become another slanting match.. The echo chamber is in full swing today..
Wise words. Predictable and tiresome beingthe order of the day, stock dismissal and stock praise. Us amateurs have already gone through all the cliched lines, and by the end of the day we'll have had the professionals doing the same. They really could save a lot of time and just publish or record what they always intended to say now, and leave in sections to be filled out by readers based on later reporting. Eg 'The crowd was [decent/fantastic/terrible] at [insert crowd estimate here]. We'd get as much out of it.
I predict right now someone dismissing the size of the crowd will tweet a picture of Trump's boasting of the size of his inauguration crowd.
My brother is on a train to London at the moment, from Coventry. It’s not busy at all, apparently.
Coventry not being a hotbed of Remain protestors is hardly breaking news...
Exactly. This People's March is just going to be people we already know are remainers walking through a city we already know supports remain.
Pointless.
No, there is a right of peaceful protest in this country and people are exercising that right, It is never pointless to put forward an argument and in a democracy people have every right to put forward views and arguments you and I oppose.
What of the anti-Iraq War march or the pro-Countryside march - were they pointless as well?
One big difference. We didn't hold a referendum on entering the Iraq war or abolishing fox hunting - so the public were never really heard directly on either issue and the protests therefore had more validity. They are perfectly entitled to have their nice little march in their safe space - but it might have more effect if they held a few more such events in towns like Stoke or Sunderland or Boston where they would be lucky to attract tens rather than tens of thousands.
As has been said its going to be the usual white middle class remainers (the last ones have been surprisingly undiverse considering its an event in the capital) mostly from London talking a walk through the leafy parts of central London to inform over 17 million people - 90 per cent of whom weren't from London - that they got it wrong and must vote again. Its a collective Violet Elizabeth Bott moment from the chattering classes - i will squeam and squeam and squeam until I get my people's vote.
We know for once Londoners - well 60% of them as more people there voted leave than voted for Sadiq Khan after second preferences at Mayor - didn't get what most of them wanted. Perhaps they just aren't used to the regular experience of much of the rest of the country.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
The EU Commission has long operated on the basis that, in the unfortunate event that the people are given the opportunity to cast a direct vote that ends up challenging the direction of travel towards an elite-led European super-state, then a situation has to be contrived where member states are prevailed upon to hold repeated votes until the right result is obtained. You clearly regard that system as democratic, I do not.
Nor I
It is the EU who treats democracy and EU citizens with contempt and cares little about what damage it's policies cause to ordinary people.
What damage is that? Like getting rid of roaming charges do you mean?
It's not that the EU cant or doesnt do any good things. There are a load of things which i believe have made the EU and the UK stronger. Our economic reforms of the 1980s were exported to the rest of the EU and are now the core economic basis of the Single Market. The environmental changes enforced on the UK made us sort our dirty habits out. We now have incredibly clean air and water. The abolition of roaming charges makes life much easier for travellers across the EU.
It won't make a difference, 3 days, 30 days, Israel will continue the occupation and the theft of land and people will continue to excuse them.
Continuing the brutal occupation is not going to stop the rockets, it is the whole reason for them. Demanding the opposition stop fighting back without stopping the occupation is obviously not going to work. The only reason to do so is to excuse the continuation of occupation.
The trivialisation comes from the attempts to compare the attacks from both sides as if they ar equal. Of course the hundreds and hundreds of enhanced fireworks (along with some higher powered stuff) causes some damage over decades that will add up.
Nowhere near as much as the serious firepower that comes back the other way. It is a convenient excuse for people like you when only a few casualties and a small amount of damage is caused to talk about hundreds of rockets being fired and make it sound like Israel is under actual seige in the way Palestine often is.
Both Israeli (authorities) and Palestinian (authorities) attacks are wrong, and need condemning. You fail to do so, and trivialise one sides: your 'firework' comments are, frankly, sick.
And I'm not saying the attacks are equal: they're evidently not.
I'm saying they're both wrong. That's a step you seem unable to make, and I do wonder why that might be.
In excusing the rocket attacks, you are showing you are uninterested in the welfare of Israelis, or in peace itself. Oddly, you are also uninterested in the welfare of Palestinians, as the rocket attacks have killed Palestinians as well when they misfire.
I oppose the occupation rather than dither around with excuses for it, the fact you find that sick says everything.
I said your firework comments were sick, and I stand by that. I did not say what you just claimed in your comment.
Opposing the occupation (peacefully) is all well and good. But we need to move forward. So again I ask (and would appreciate a sane answer this time): how would you move things forward?
The PR offensive is part of supporting the occupation. My pointing out of that is part of the opposition to it that you found sick.
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
When Mountain Dew came up with a slightly different type of sugar laden shite they ran an Internet poll to let the people choose a name for it. The most popular name and the winning entry was "Hitler Did Nothing Wrong". Going ahead with Brexit on a specious claim of vox populi, vox dei makes as much sense as Mountain Dew using that name that the great unsoaped selected.
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
Which borders? 47, 67, 82? Or pre 47?
I think the 47-67 border would be accepted by everyone in exchange for peace, with two exceptions.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
What the Peoples Vote campaign should be doing is playing the long game rather than the short game. Calling for another vote at this point can be, and is being quite successfully, as petulance by those that lost the first time around. Depending on how the next couple of months go it could be entirely feasible that another referendum is the only option but I doubt that it is likely.
If they want this country to be a long term member of the EU then they actually need to make the positive case to the people. Explain to people what the constituent parts are and how they are of a benefit to the economy of this country. They also need to do it again and again and again over the course of decades like the Brexiteers have.
They are not helped by the undemocratic nature of the EU or the fact that the EU is a political project for the creation of a European superstate which the people of this country have never bought into. We saw the 'vote again' mantra asked of the Danish and the Irish in the past and it smelt wrong. When France voted against the European constitution they rebadged it into the Lisbon treaty and made people vote again.
If there needs to be another vote it has to be for the right reasons and on the right issues otherwise we'll end up in a worse position than we already are.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
When Mountain Dew came up with a slightly different type of sugar laden shite they ran an Internet poll to let the people choose a name for it. The most popular name and the winning entry was "Hitler Did Nothing Wrong". Going ahead with Brexit on a specious claim of vox populi, vox dei makes as much sense as Mountain Dew using that name that the great unsoaped selected.
Are you seriously suggesting that an internet poll is comparable to a nationwide plebiscite organised by the government and conducted under basically the same rules as a general election?
Because if so, I think you should pause and reflect there may be a reason why Brexit supporters show no signs of changing their mind on the basis of the arguments our side is putting forward...
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
When Mountain Dew came up with a slightly different type of sugar laden shite they ran an Internet poll to let the people choose a name for it. The most popular name and the winning entry was "Hitler Did Nothing Wrong". Going ahead with Brexit on a specious claim of vox populi, vox dei makes as much sense as Mountain Dew using that name that the great unsoaped selected.
Are you seriously suggesting that an internet poll is comparable to a nationwide plebiscite organised by the government and conducted under basically the same rules as a general election?
Plenty of people also claim that opinion polls should count as much as GEs and referenda, when they show the right thing. In fairness not the second referendum people, who right or wrong about what the people think are at least seeking to confirm that with the people further.
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
What the Peoples Vote campaign should be doing is playing the long game rather than the short game. Calling for another vote at this point can be, and is being quite successfully, as petulance by those that lost the first time around. Depending on how the next couple of months go it could be entirely feasible that another referendum is the only option but I doubt that it is likely.
If they want this country to be a long term member of the EU then they actually need to make the positive case to the people. Explain to people what the constituent parts are and how they are of a benefit to the economy of this country. They also need to do it again and again and again over the course of decades like the Brexiteers have.
They are not helped by the undemocratic nature of the EU or the fact that the EU is a political project for the creation of a European superstate which the people of this country have never bought into. We saw the 'vote again' mantra asked of the Danish and the Irish in the past and it smelt wrong. When France voted against the European constitution they rebadged it into the Lisbon treaty and made people vote again.
If there needs to be another vote it has to be for the right reasons and on the right issues otherwise we'll end up in a worse position than we already are.
+1
It's been two years and I'm still waiting for someone to make a positive case for the EU. All I see is project fear mark II.
Those hoping for a "people's vote" to reverse Brexit should be careful what they wish for. Leaving aside how divisive and damaging to the country another vote would be (and why should leavers accept it as final, if the first one wasn't?), a result of "we told you the first time, leave means leave" is incredibly possible the way remainers are going about demanding a second vote.
Wentworth is like the RIchmond upon Thames of Australia covering a lot of the wealthiest parts of Sydney and was one of the safest Liberal party seats in the country - they have held it since 1901 which was the first federal election. Malcolm Turnbull the former PM who got dumped as leader was their local MP and understandably the locals aren't too happy with the Liberal party.
Its now been called for the independent candidate Kerryn Phelps who has won win an estimated 27 per cent swing. Memories of the Richmond by election here post Brexit?
So quite a dramatic protest and probably not a good sign for the Coalition for next year's election. The Coalition is now a minority government relying on independents - if it can persuade them - to get its legislation though.
Malcolm Turnbull was an absolute turd. He got his seat in Parliament by branch stacking and deselecting the sitting MP. He became leader of the opposition by backstabbing the leader. He became Prime Minister by backstabbing the existing PM. And when it happens to him, he has a huge sulk and resigns his seat to deprive his own Party of its majority. But despite his history of bloodshed all the left wing Australian press could do was say how terrible it was that he got knifed. Ignoring the fact that he was miles behind in the polls and was leading the Government to a huge election defeat.
The Australian Liberal Party is the example of what happens when a centre right party gets taken over by the liberal elite. The right wing then gravitates to social conservatism which also has no traction. They are just what the Tory Party were becoming under Heath before Thatcher saved them and what they were becoming before Brexit rescued them. But there is no sign of such a saviour anywhere in the Liberal Party - such a person would never be accepted as a candidate.
The Liberals will get destroyed at the election. I doubt they really care. They are all rich and well connected. They will just retreat to their coffee shops and sip Latte and go on the news to complain and just wait their turn again.
Turnbull was polling better than Morrison is and far better than the Abbott backed Dutton was. Julie Bishop polled best and she is very centrist
What I like about today’s march is that it is the physical manifestation of a genuinely bottom-up, grassroots popular movement beyond the control of the far left and hard right. No wonder the Corbynistas and Bucanneering Brexiteers hate it so much. I am not sure that a second referendum will help much. I doubt it would change anything, but I am marching in spirit with everyone in London today. The energy, the solidarity, the hope is what matters. It won’t go away after Brexit day. This is the start of something.
Wow, really? It's as much an organised top down establishment setup as it's possible to have. A bunch of very sore losers.
Hard to believe that they're any sorer than the winners. I thought Unionists in 2014 were the sorest, most graceless winners I'd seen, but Brexiteers are running them damn close.
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
Which borders? 47, 67, 82? Or pre 47?
I think the 47-67 border would be accepted by everyone in exchange for peace, with two exceptions.
Unfortunately the exceptions are Likud and Hamas.
Would only work if you could guarantee peace - unfortunately the 47 borders make Israel very vulnerable to a surprise attack
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
Which borders? 47, 67, 82? Or pre 47?
I think the 47-67 border would be accepted by everyone in exchange for peace, with two exceptions.
Unfortunately the exceptions are Likud and Hamas.
Would only work if you could guarantee peace - unfortunately the 47 borders make Israel very vulnerable to a surprise attack
Well, yes, in theory. A country ten miles wide at its narrowest point, surrounded by hostile states, would be easy meat.
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
What the Peoples Vote campaign should be doing is playing the long game rather than the short game. Calling for another vote at this point can be, and is being quite successfully, as petulance by those that lost the first time around. Depending on how the next couple of months go it could be entirely feasible that another referendum is the only option but I doubt that it is likely.
If they want this country to be a long term member of the EU then they actually need to make the positive case to the people. Explain to people what the constituent parts are and how they are of a benefit to the economy of this country. They also need to do it again and again and again over the course of decades like the Brexiteers have.
They are not helped by the undemocratic nature of the EU or the fact that the EU is a political project for the creation of a European superstate which the people of this country have never bought into. We saw the 'vote again' mantra asked of the Danish and the Irish in the past and it smelt wrong. When France voted against the European constitution they rebadged it into the Lisbon treaty and made people vote again.
If there needs to be another vote it has to be for the right reasons and on the right issues otherwise we'll end up in a worse position than we already are.
+1
It's been two years and I'm still waiting for someone to make a positive case for the EU. All I see is project fear mark II.
Those hoping for a "people's vote" to reverse Brexit should be careful what they wish for. Leaving aside how divisive and damaging to the country another vote would be (and why should leavers accept it as final, if the first one wasn't?), a result of "we told you the first time, leave means leave" is incredibly possible the way remainers are going about demanding a second vote.
The problem is that there's been nobody making the positive case for the EU for 40+ years so why would they start now?
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
What the P
If they want this country to be a long term member of the EU then they actually need to make the positive case to the people. Explain to people what the constituent parts are and how they are of a benefit to the economy of this country. They also need to do it again and again and again over the course of decades like the Brexiteers have.
They are not helped by the undemocratic nature of the EU or the fact that the EU is a political project for the creation of a European superstate which the people of this country have never bought into. We saw the 'vote again' mantra asked of the Danish and the Irish in the past and it smelt wrong. When France voted against the European constitution they rebadged it into the Lisbon treaty and made people vote again.
If there needs to be another vote it has to be for the right reasons and on the right issues otherwise we'll end up in a worse position than we already are.
+1
It's been two years and I'm still waiting for someone to make a positive case for the EU. All I see is project fear mark II.
Those hoping for a "people's vote" to reverse Brexit should be careful what they wish for. Leaving aside how divisive and damaging to the country another vote would be (and why should leavers accept it as final, if the first one wasn't?), a result of "we told you the first time, leave means leave" is incredibly possible the way remainers are going about demanding a second vote.
The problem is that there's been nobody making the positive case for the EU for 40+ years so why would they start now?
Some people have been talking about how we benefit from EU membership, but it gets lost amidst the negative case, and undone by hyperbolic doom mongering about supposed cultural loss of not being a member.
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k. If a very high number is claimed they might do a " 'Millions' demand peoplesvote - organisers" style headline as it is more dramatic.
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k.
Shame they picked half term.week when a load of people have gone away
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k.
Shame they picked half term.week when a load of people have gone away
Oi! Not everyone is on half term this week. For some of us it's the following week, which is bloody annoying.
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
What the P
If they want this country to be a long term member of the EU then they actually need to make the positive case to the people. Explain to people what the constituent parts are and how they are of a benefit to the economy of this country. They also need to do it again and again and again over the course of decades like the Brexiteers have.
They are not helped by the undemocratic nature of the EU or the fact that the EU is a political project for the creation of a European superstate which the people of this country have never bought into. We saw the 'vote again' mantra asked of the Danish and the Irish in the past and it smelt wrong. When France voted against the European constitution they rebadged it into the Lisbon treaty and made people vote again.
If there needs to be another vote it has to be for the right reasons and on the right issues otherwise we'll end up in a worse position than we already are.
+1
It's been two years and I'm still waiting for someone to make a positive case for the EU. All I see is project fear mark II.
Those hoping for a "people's vote" to reverse Brexit should be careful what they wish for. Leaving aside how divisive and damaging to the country another vote would be (and why should leavers accept it as final, if the first one wasn't?), a result of "we told you the first time, leave means leave" is incredibly possible the way remainers are going about demanding a second vote.
The problem is that there's been nobody making the positive case for the EU for 40+ years so why would they start now?
Some people have been talking about how we benefit from EU membership, but it gets lost amidst the negative case, and undone by hyperbolic doom mongering about supposed cultural loss of not being a member.
There was painfully little of it visible two years ago...
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
What the P
If they want this country to be a long term member of the EU then they actually need to make the positive case to the people. Explain to people what the constituent parts are and how they are of a benefit to the economy of this country. They also need to do it again and again and again over the course of decades like the Brexiteers have.
They
If there needs to be another vote it has to be for the right reasons and on the right issues otherwise we'll end up in a worse position than we already are.
+1
It's been two years and I'm still waiting for someone to make a positive case for the EU. All I see is project fear mark II.
Those hoping for a "people's vote" to reverse Brexit should be careful what they wish for. Leaving aside how divisive and damaging to the country another vote would be (and why should leavers accept it as final, if the first one wasn't?), a result of "we told you the first time, leave means leave" is incredibly possible the way remainers are going about demanding a second vote.
The problem is that there's been nobody making the positive case for the EU for 40+ years so why would they start now?
Some people have been talking about how we benefit from EU membership, but it gets lost amidst the negative case, and undone by hyperbolic doom mongering about supposed cultural loss of not being a member.
There was painfully little of it visible two years ago...
That's true, and there's not enough now (and it is diluted by 'defences' of the EU which make the EU look bad like focusing on the supposed inevitability of its nature), but I was conceding that it is not the case that no one makes a positive case, some are talking about how we are better off in the EU, and not purely on the grounds the apocalypse is coming if we are not in it.
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k.
Shame they picked half term.week when a load of people have gone away
Oi! Not everyone is on half term this week. For some of us it's the following week, which is bloody annoying.
It is half-term in Bucks. Some schools (mine included) are taking a bit more than a week as well. We broke up on Thursday and are taking the Monday after as a much needed trading day (and I’m not being ironic - we have a new IT system to learn and set up).
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
It is, of course, your democratic right to hold hundreds of thousands of your fellow citizens in contempt; just as they have the right to march and to call for a further democratic vote.
And if your "people's vote" returned the same answer a second time, what would you do then?
If you don't accept the result of the first vote, why would you accept the result of the second? How many times would "the people" have to vote before you accept the result of a democratic referendum?
Attempting to make people vote, vote and vote again until they return the "right" answer is about as democratic as an election in Putin's Russia.
I do accept the first vote. I do not accept the interpretation of it that sees it as a mandate to make people poorer, cut public services and make Britain less influential in the world. However, as I say downthread I back this march not because I want a second referendum, but because I very much like the idea of an energised, grassroots movement of people whose views broadly reflect my own. This could be the start of something.
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k.
Shame they picked half term.week when a load of people have gone away
Oi! Not everyone is on half term this week. For some of us it's the following week, which is bloody annoying.
It is half-term in Bucks. Some schools (mine included) are taking a bit more than a week as well. We broke up on Thursday and are taking the Monday after as a much needed trading day (and I’m not being ironic - we have a new IT system to learn and set up).
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k. If a very high number is claimed they might do a " 'Millions' demand peoplesvote - organisers" style headline as it is more dramatic.
Probably yes but I thought these things had a natural rhythm with lots arriving early?
What damage is that? Like getting rid of roaming charges do you mean?
Ask that of the people of Greece. While it was probably necessary in the long term to make significant changes in the Greek economy it was made much more painful by the policies of the EU.
So because the Greek economy was given a hard but necessary correction we must wreck ours?
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
Which borders? 47, 67, 82? Or pre 47?
I think the 47-67 border would be accepted by everyone in exchange for peace, with two exceptions.
Unfortunately the exceptions are Likud and Hamas.
Why on earth would Israel accept a pre 1967 border? They would be mad. They were invaded by a coordinated set of forces to destroy them, Israel not only defended themselves they managed to expand their borders from the invaders. Good for them.
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k.
Shame they picked half term.week when a load of people have gone away
Oi! Not everyone is on half term this week. For some of us it's the following week, which is bloody annoying.
It is half-term in Bucks. Some schools (mine included) are taking a bit more than a week as well. We broke up on Thursday and are taking the Monday after as a much needed trading day (and I’m not being ironic - we have a new IT system to learn and set up).
Will you please stop rubbing it in my face???!!!
If it makes you feel any better, my wife doesn’t have half term until next Friday, either.
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k.
Shame they picked half term.week when a load of people have gone away
Oi! Not everyone is on half term this week. For some of us it's the following week, which is bloody annoying.
It is half-term in Bucks. Some schools (mine included) are taking a bit more than a week as well. We broke up on Thursday and are taking the Monday after as a much needed trading day (and I’m not being ironic - we have a new IT system to learn and set up).
Will you please stop rubbing it in my face???!!!
If it makes you feel any better, my wife doesn’t have half term until next Friday, either.
That does at least make me feel less left out, so thank you!
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
Have you seen the pictures as opposed to making useless and baseless conjecture?
I am reporting what I heard on BBC radio
My assumption is that is more informed than me eyeballing a few shots on TV.
The rest is my interpretation of the difference between “thousands” and “tens of thousands” about which you can have a different view. You might regard it as “useless” but it’s not “baseless”
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k. If a very high number is claimed they might do a " 'Millions' demand peoplesvote - organisers" style headline as it is more dramatic.
Probably yes but I thought these things had a natural rhythm with lots arriving early?
No idea, but given it is apparently hard to estimate crowd numbers, the BBC might as well play it safe on the language until the claims and counter claims come out and then just use those.
I'm sure we have been through this before I see little point but very briefly Israel needs to pull back to its borders and there needs to be an international effort to rebuild Palestine. You aren't going to anything out of the Palestinians whilst they continue to be held in poverty. This won't happen whilst Israel continues to occupy Palestine with international approval.
Which borders? 47, 67, 82? Or pre 47?
I think the 47-67 border would be accepted by everyone in exchange for peace, with two exceptions.
Unfortunately the exceptions are Likud and Hamas.
Why on earth would Israel accept a pre 1967 border? They would be mad. They were invaded by a coordinated set of forces to destroy them, Israel not only defended themselves they managed to expand their borders from the invaders. Good for them.
In case you hadn't fully understood my comment - they won't.
But it's hard to see any path to peace unless they do.
What the Peoples Vote campaign should be doing is playing the long game rather than the short game. Calling for another vote at this point can be, and is being quite successfully, as petulance by those that lost the first time around. Depending on how the next couple of months go it could be entirely feasible that another referendum is the only option but I doubt that it is likely.
If they want this country to be a long term member of the EU then they actually need to make the positive case to the people. Explain to people what the constituent parts are and how they are of a benefit to the economy of this country. They also need to do it again and again and again over the course of decades like the Brexiteers have.
They are not helped by the undemocratic nature of the EU or the fact that the EU is a political project for the creation of a European superstate which the people of this country have never bought into. We saw the 'vote again' mantra asked of the Danish and the Irish in the past and it smelt wrong. When France voted against the European constitution they rebadged it into the Lisbon treaty and made people vote again.
If there needs to be another vote it has to be for the right reasons and on the right issues otherwise we'll end up in a worse position than we already are.
Agree as a long-term strategy, but in the short term it's crucial that they focus on what's happening right now. If any remotely plausible settlement is reached, including a really bad one, the appetite to even think about EU membership will be gone for 10-20 years. It's perfectly reasonable for people in any part of the spectrum to say they want to judge a deal on its merits and if they think it a bad deal to campaign to overturn it, either in Parliament or through a new vote. Freedom of expression, innit.
Not at the march but judging from helicopter shots it looks big. Very big.
I'm sure it will be at least 500k...doesn't matter though it's the largest echo chamber in the world..
BBC radio said “thousands”
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
I would guess, and it is purely a guess, that the BBC will start out saying thousands, so they can cover the bare minimum as a possibility while still being accurate, and as things progress a bit they will switch it to tens of thousands, and higher if it becomes clear it is at the least 100k. If a very high number is claimed they might do a " 'Millions' demand peoplesvote - organisers" style headline as it is more dramatic.
Probably yes but I thought these things had a natural rhythm with lots arriving early?
No idea, but given it is apparently hard to estimate crowd numbers, the BBC might as well play it safe on the language until the claims and counter claims come out and then just use those.
True, although their natural affection for the type of celebrities leading the march could incline them to give a positive slant
In fairness, the previous 15 elections had also produced three one-party non-Tory majorities. The lock they have had on power since certainly 1885-86 and arguably 1874 is really quite extraordinary.
Ah yes, and the same old infantilism approach as with Nick Griffin, where people seem to fear that if we hear from terrible people millions will fall under their sway.
Ah yes, and the same old infantilism approach as with Nick Griffin, where people seem to fear that if we hear from terrible people millions will fall under their sway.
As far as I can make out Sturgeon is refusing to share a platform with Bannon. It’s hard to see the problem with that. I wish Jeremy Corbyn had taken the same stance instead if sharing platforms with the countless anti-Semites and apologists for terror he’s shared platforms with over the years.
I shall be marching round Taunton's green spaces with beloved wife and Yorkiepoos to show support for the plucky Remainers exercising their democratic right to peaceful demonstraion, though my placard will only be visible to onlookers with AR phones. Looks like a lovely day for it too.
I shall be walking round my garden's green spaces to show support for the other 60-odd million Brits, who are looking at those "Peoples Vote" marching because Brexit was only voted for by badgers - and thinking "what wankers...."
With Corbyn leading the Labour Party I occasionally think I might have to vote Conservative next time around - then I read I post by you or Casino Royale and I think sod that.
Ah yes, and the same old infantilism approach as with Nick Griffin, where people seem to fear that if we hear from terrible people millions will fall under their sway.
Is it ? The strange readiness of the BBC to give a platform to assorted American controversialists on a regular basis is an enduring curiosity which has little to do with issues of free speech.
Ah yes, and the same old infantilism approach as with Nick Griffin, where people seem to fear that if we hear from terrible people millions will fall under their sway.
As far as I can make out Sturgeon is refusing to share a platform with Bannon. It’s hard to see the problem with that. I wish Jeremy Corbyn had taken the same stance instead if sharing platforms with the countless anti-Semites and apologists for terror he’s shared platforms with over the years.
Ah yes, and the same old infantilism approach as with Nick Griffin, where people seem to fear that if we hear from terrible people millions will fall under their sway.
As far as I can make out Sturgeon is refusing to share a platform with Bannon. It’s hard to see the problem with that. I wish Jeremy Corbyn had taken the same stance instead if sharing platforms with the countless anti-Semites and apologists for terror he’s shared platforms with over the years.
It's almost like Sturgeon thinks she should be able to choose with whom she wants to share a platform, and not have their presence sprung upon her. Shocking arrogance, why wouldn't she legitimise a non UK 'powerful and influential figure' who hasn't even bothered with attempting democratic accountability in his own country?
Ah yes, and the same old infantilism approach as with Nick Griffin, where people seem to fear that if we hear from terrible people millions will fall under their sway.
As far as I can make out Sturgeon is refusing to share a platform with Bannon. It’s hard to see the problem with that. I wish Jeremy Corbyn had taken the same stance instead if sharing platforms with the countless anti-Semites and apologists for terror he’s shared platforms with over the years.
Ah yes, and the same old infantilism approach as with Nick Griffin, where people seem to fear that if we hear from terrible people millions will fall under their sway.
As far as I can make out Sturgeon is refusing to share a platform with Bannon. It’s hard to see the problem with that. I wish Jeremy Corbyn had taken the same stance instead if sharing platforms with the countless anti-Semites and apologists for terror he’s shared platforms with over the years.
Ah yes, and the same old infantilism approach as with Nick Griffin, where people seem to fear that if we hear from terrible people millions will fall under their sway.
As far as I can make out Sturgeon is refusing to share a platform with Bannon. It’s hard to see the problem with that. I wish Jeremy Corbyn had taken the same stance instead if sharing platforms with the countless anti-Semites and apologists for terror he’s shared platforms with over the years.
A good point.
Indeed, an unanswerable point.
No doubt someone will try to prove you wrong...
I suppose the argument could be made that she would at least be in a position to refute his views, while Corbyn was at best tacitly supporting the views of divers murderers, Holocaust deniers, bullies and swindlers.
But given Bannon's modus operandi when caught out is to lie, shout, scream, bully and generally behave like an arse, I can see why she might think trying to do so was a waste of time that would merely risk legitimising him.
And, of course, it's entirely reasonable for her to say she doesn't want to be in the same room as such a scumbag. I've had to advise SLT earlier this week that there is a student I am not willing to have in the same room as me due to her persistent obnoxious behaviour. But that one is no Bannon.
People's Vote campaign claiming 570,000 marching today which would overtake the 400,000 who attended the Countryside March and be the second biggest March in postwar UK history I think after the anti Iraq War March
People's Vote campaign claiming 570,000 marching today which would overtake the 400,000 who attended the Countryside March and be the second biggest March in postwar UK history I think after the anti Iraq War March
Agree as a long-term strategy, but in the short term it's crucial that they focus on what's happening right now. If any remotely plausible settlement is reached, including a really bad one, the appetite to even think about EU membership will be gone for 10-20 years. It's perfectly reasonable for people in any part of the spectrum to say they want to judge a deal on its merits and if they think it a bad deal to campaign to overturn it, either in Parliament or through a new vote. Freedom of expression, innit.
Two responses to that.
1) regardless of what happens in the short to medium term a long term strategy needs to be outlined and implemented. whereever we are after brexit, there won't be an appetite to be or remain a member of the EU without one. I've argued for a long time that we as a country need to be fully engaged in the project (including euro membership) or completely out of it. the toe-dipping position of successive governments has undermined the idea of membership.
2) there's a difference between strategy and tactics. The short term strategy is probably the correct one to a point but the tactics have been counterproductive. It's been far too easy for the Brexiteers to paint it as petulence of the defeated wanting to run the campaign again. if they'd waited until the deal, or lack of a deal, was agreed there would be much better optics and it'd be much harder for the brexiteers to cast it in the same light. whatever happens now the brexiteers will be able to continue to cast the call for a referendum in those terms. doind the right thing at the wrong time can be as bad as doing the wrong thing at the right time.
People's Vote campaign claiming 570,000 marching today which would overtake the 400,000 who attended the Countryside March and be the second biggest March in postwar UK history I think after the anti Iraq War March
People's Vote campaign claiming 570,000 marching today which would overtake the 400,000 who attended the Countryside March and be the second biggest March in postwar UK history I think after the anti Iraq War March
Comments
I predict right now someone dismissing the size of the crowd will tweet a picture of Trump's boasting of the size of his inauguration crowd.
(*Looks round carefully in case Mr Eagles and Sunil bury their differences and go for a joint attack*)
Doesn’t sound very impressive
Of course, I imagine the economy took a hit when war broke out in the next movies.
This analogy doesn't altogether work from a remainer's point of view...
Unfortunately the exceptions are Likud and Hamas.
If they want this country to be a long term member of the EU then they actually need to make the positive case to the people. Explain to people what the constituent parts are and how they are of a benefit to the economy of this country. They also need to do it again and again and again over the course of decades like the Brexiteers have.
They are not helped by the undemocratic nature of the EU or the fact that the EU is a political project for the creation of a European superstate which the people of this country have never bought into. We saw the 'vote again' mantra asked of the Danish and the Irish in the past and it smelt wrong. When France voted against the European constitution they rebadged it into the Lisbon treaty and made people vote again.
If there needs to be another vote it has to be for the right reasons and on the right issues otherwise we'll end up in a worse position than we already are.
Because if so, I think you should pause and reflect there may be a reason why Brexit supporters show no signs of changing their mind on the basis of the arguments our side is putting forward...
It's been two years and I'm still waiting for someone to make a positive case for the EU. All I see is project fear mark II.
Those hoping for a "people's vote" to reverse Brexit should be careful what they wish for. Leaving aside how divisive and damaging to the country another vote would be (and why should leavers accept it as final, if the first one wasn't?), a result of "we told you the first time, leave means leave" is incredibly possible the way remainers are going about demanding a second vote.
Thought Colonel Nasser and King Hussein...
I’d interpret that as being less than 20,000... if there was no doubt about it being more than that it would be “tens of thousands”
Well it’s a view.
My assumption is that is more informed than me eyeballing a few shots on TV.
The rest is my interpretation of the difference between “thousands” and “tens of thousands” about which you can have a different view. You might regard it as “useless” but it’s not “baseless”
But it's hard to see any path to peace unless they do.
I’d say that the headline is misleading
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-45925542
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Micrographia#/media/File:HookeFlea01.jpg
The strange readiness of the BBC to give a platform to assorted American controversialists on a regular basis is an enduring curiosity which has little to do with issues of free speech.
https://twitter.com/LibDems/status/1053617149896470530
But given Bannon's modus operandi when caught out is to lie, shout, scream, bully and generally behave like an arse, I can see why she might think trying to do so was a waste of time that would merely risk legitimising him.
And, of course, it's entirely reasonable for her to say she doesn't want to be in the same room as such a scumbag. I've had to advise SLT earlier this week that there is a student I am not willing to have in the same room as me due to her persistent obnoxious behaviour. But that one is no Bannon.
https://twitter.com/peoplesvote_uk/status/1053628358536429568?s=20
1) regardless of what happens in the short to medium term a long term strategy needs to be outlined and implemented. whereever we are after brexit, there won't be an appetite to be or remain a member of the EU without one. I've argued for a long time that we as a country need to be fully engaged in the project (including euro membership) or completely out of it. the toe-dipping position of successive governments has undermined the idea of membership.
2) there's a difference between strategy and tactics. The short term strategy is probably the correct one to a point but the tactics have been counterproductive. It's been far too easy for the Brexiteers to paint it as petulence of the defeated wanting to run the campaign again. if they'd waited until the deal, or lack of a deal, was agreed there would be much better optics and it'd be much harder for the brexiteers to cast it in the same light. whatever happens now the brexiteers will be able to continue to cast the call for a referendum in those terms. doind the right thing at the wrong time can be as bad as doing the wrong thing at the right time.
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