There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn'trrounded by even more dreadful geeks. We're fucked.
I thought you said May was fantastic a few months ago.
I challenge you to find that quote. If you do find it, I plead intoxication.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
He’s saying the leaders of the campaigns are elite isn’t he? Not you
The leaders of both campaigns can be fairly considered elites. And the overwhelming majority of both those who voted for Leave and those who voted for Remain were ordinary people.
Thus the whole 'Elites versus the People' meme is total bullshit, fake news, spin.
It's clever, but it doesn't make it acceptable.
"Acceptable" is another way of saying "waaaah, it's not fair, they shouldn't be allowed to do thaaaaat".
As I said half truths. The simple fact is that even after all of this there is little to no positive vision for remain. It's the "well the other way is too hard" option. I'm not sure a campaign can be based on that.
More than once you have have used the terms autistic and Aspergers in , it appears, a derogatory, perhaps even flippant fashion. I assure you , that families that live with this/these conditions have no energy for this kind of ‘adjective’. As a writer, how do you justify these terms?
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn't believe
She doesn’t think Brexit is a good idea, she doesn’t think limiting immigration is important. That’s why she’s making a mess of it.
Nah. Sean's right - she's making a mess of it because she's not very good. Her qualities (resilience, tenacity) are the very ones which, at this moment in time, are least helpful to the country.
I think we may well be fucked. It's an existential crisis looming. Unless a route to a sensible soft-Brexit or Brexit reversal can be found, the UK will no longer exist in 10 years time.
Yes, I think that the UK is heading the way of Yugoslavia, with the Brexiteers in the role of the Serbs.
If she 1 didn't believe in the Brexit promises she should have said so and refused the premiership, 2, if she did, she's totally fucked up
Looks to me like she wanted the mantle of the New Thatcher and didn't care if she lied about her Brexit beliefs to do it. Turns out the Brexit task is WAY beyond her skillset.
She's dreadful. Sadly she is surrounded by even more dreadful geeks. We're fucked.
Difficult to argue with your last sentence.
But you did vote for this...
Nobody in their wildest dreams thought we'd end up with Theresa May as PM when they voted for Brexit.
I blame Boris, he should have ploughed on and fucked Gove off. At least we would have had a race and seen May's flaws before making her PM.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn't believe
She doesn’t think Brexit is a good idea, she doesn’t think limiting immigration is important. That’s why she’s making a mess of it.
Nah. Sean's right - she's making a mess of it because she's not very good. Her qualities (resilience, tenacity) are the very ones which, at this moment in time, are least helpful to the country.
I think we may well be fucked. It's an existential crisis looming. Unless a route to a sensible soft-Brexit or Brexit reversal can be found, the UK will no longer exist in 10 years time.
Yes, I think that the UK is heading the way of Yugoslavia, with the Brexiteers in the role of the Serbs.
Good grief. PB is getting more depressing by the day.
More than once you have have used the terms autistic and Aspergers in , it appears, a derogatory, perhaps even flippant fashion. I assure you , that families that live with this/these conditions have no energy for this kind of ‘adjective’. As a writer, how do you justify these terms?
Speaking as someone with Asperger’s, I think Sean is right. If she is, she’s done well to reach the top of a career where “people skills” are usually regarded as essential, but I really don’t think she is the right fit fot the job.
More than once you have have used the terms autistic and Aspergers in , it appears, a derogatory, perhaps even flippant fashion. I assure you , that families that live with this/these conditions have no energy for this kind of ‘adjective’. As a writer, how do you justify these terms?
Speaking as someone with Asperger’s, I think Sean is right. If she is, she’s done well to reach the top of a career where “people skills” are usually regarded as essential, but I really don’t think she is the right fit fot the job.
There's no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum shouldn't be PM.
More than once you have have used the terms autistic and Aspergers in , it appears, a derogatory, perhaps even flippant fashion. I assure you , that families that live with this/these conditions have no energy for this kind of ‘adjective’. As a writer, how do you justify these terms?
Speaking as someone with Asperger’s, I think Sean is right. If she is, she’s done well to reach the top of a career where “people skills” are usually regarded as essential, but I really don’t think she is the right fit fot the job.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn'trrounded by even more dreadful geeks. We're fucked.
I thought you said May was fantastic a few months ago.
I challenge you to find that quote. If you do find it, I plead intoxication.
I think the important thing here is “ If she is”. Do we know that ? If not , then it is just an assumption , randomly and thoughtlessly thrown out. Of course , it may be that she is still not the right fit for the job. Autism/Aspergers seems to be a convenient /lazy adjective in this case.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
A provincial doctor earns close to £100,000 a year, no? That makes you very definitely ELITE.
I earn that sort of salary - I grew up on a council estate and certainly don't think of myself as elite.
Lucky yes, (but I have worked hard for it), but no, not elite.
More than once you have have used the terms autistic and Aspergers in , it appears, a derogatory, perhaps even flippant fashion. I assure you , that families that live with this/these conditions have no energy for this kind of ‘adjective’. As a writer, how do you justify these terms?
Speaking as someone with Asperger’s, I think Sean is right. If she is, she’s done well to reach the top of a career where “people skills” are usually regarded as essential, but I really don’t think she is the right fit fot the job.
There's no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum shouldn't be PM.
Not at all, although it’s definitely harder for someone on the spectrum to achieve than someone who’s not. Being PM is not like other jobs though: events can break a PM who could otherwise have been very successful. I don’t think May has the flexibility the rôle needs right now. In another time that might not have mattered, but as it is she is not the right person for the job. The trouble is, it’s hard to see who would be.
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
To be fair, trying to solve the Brexit Cube with a majority dependent on ALL of (a) the DUP (b) hardline Brexiteers and (c) unrepentant Remainers would tax anyone, and she's at least been trying doggedly. I think the Project Fear 2 bit has worked pretty well - almost nobody now thinks that No Deal is an attractive option, and she has a fair chance of getting a "little change, maybe something in the future" package through. The problem is that she's been obsessed with day-to-day party management. What the situation really called for was a Tony Blair type - whatever one thinks of him specifically - who would set out a coherent objective and argue everyone into the ground in Parliament and every media channel available.
Corbyn, I think, would be uninterested in traditional patriotism (not in the sense of hating it, but not relating to it either), but he does identify strongly with "ordinary people living in Britain" (in which he'd certainly include immigrants). It's a form of left-wing patriotism which has quite an honourable history, even though it's not what we'd usually think of by the term.
More than once you have have used the terms autistic and Aspergers in , it appears, a derogatory, perhaps even flippant fashion. I assure you , that families that live with this/these conditions have no energy for this kind of ‘adjective’. As a writer, how do you justify these terms?
I have very close family members on the autistic spectrum. Trust me, I know it well.
I have written a novel about a child on this Aspergery spectrum and I have read all the books.
I have absolute sympathy for anyone who suffers from it, or any parent or relative who has to deal with the consequences.
Nonetheless, I am (in that light) prepared to call it when I see it in major politicians. Because it effects all our lives. And I see autism in TMay, the lack of empathy, the tin ear, the weird gestures and grimaces (stimming), the relatively high intelligence, diligence and thoroughness allied with a very closed inner circle. The social awkwardness.
In some jobs (often in IT and engineering) this mindset can be actually positive. In a prime minister dealing with a national diplomatic revolution, and having to play 4D political chess with dozens of other countries, it is disastrous.
I am a bipolar, yet highly functional alcoholic. If I saw the same symptoms (as mine) in a major politician I would say so, whatever the consequences, because this shit is important.
More than once you have have used the terms autistic and Aspergers in , it appears, a derogatory, perhaps even flippant fashion. I assure you , that families that live with this/these conditions have no energy for this kind of ‘adjective’. As a writer, how do you justify these terms?
I have very close family members on the autistic spectrum. Trust me, I know it well.
I have written a novel about a child on this Aspergery spectrum and I have read all the books.
I have absolute sympathy for anyone who suffers from it, or any parent or relative who has to deal with the consequences.
Nonetheless, I am (in that light) prepared to call it when I see it in major politicians. Because it effects all our lives. And I see autism in TMay, the lack of empathy, the tin ear, the weird gestures and grimaces (stimming), the relatively high intelligence, diligence and thoroughness allied with a very closed inner circle. The social awkwardness.
In some jobs (often in IT and engineering) this mindset can be actually positive. In a prime minister dealing with a national diplomatic revolution, and having to play 4D political chess with dozens of other countries, it is disastrous.
I am a bipolar, yet highly functional alcoholic. If I saw the same symptoms (as mine) in a major politician I would say so, whatever the consequences, because this shit is important.
By the way, why exactly did May choose to make a statement today? As far as I can tell, all it achieved was giving everybody an opportunity to have a go at her
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
A provincial doctor earns close to £100,000 a year, no? That makes you very definitely ELITE.
I earn that sort of salary - I grew up on a council estate and certainly don't think of myself as elite.
Lucky yes, (but I have worked hard for it), but no, not elite.
You're wrong. Whether you think of yourself that way or not you are.
A third of Cabinet in pizza club secret meeting. Hunt Gove Lesson all there
The real question is - who has pineapple on theirs?
Hunt.
Actually, if you were Brexiteers from the moment the campaign began, now hunt is sat at the table with you, wouldn’t you be side eyeing him suspiciously? He’s wetter than wetty mcwetface pouring wet into yesterday’s incontinence pad. At FO now but certainly taken road to Damascus at somepoint
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with much of what you say, this part is simply and demonstrably untrue. She has spent far too long avoiding taking decisions due to worrying about her party and not what is best for the country, but it is impossible to square her actions of the past 4 months, which have led to increasingly severe disagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her specifically, with the charge that she is not, belatedly, trying to do what is best for the country. Too little too late, perhaps, but I think you overdo it on the critique there, it is simply not credible to explain May's actions for the better part of this year by suggesting she has not cared at all about what is best for this country. What, exactly, do you think her motivation has been picking a fight with a huge part of her own party? Fun? May is inadequate for the task at hand, and she is architect of plenty of her own troubles, but she has at least tried toward the end.
May's massive tactical mistake was to cede too much ground to early to the EU. Now she's nothing left she can give away, but the EU having found her a soft touch keep holding her feet to the fire for more.
She should have stood her ground a year ago, when the wretched backstop was first mooted, and told them that it was no Irish Sea boarder, or no deal, and by the way we aren't going to help police the Irish boarder one little bit if you make them have one. That would have had two effects - it would have called the EUs bluff (and probably they would have offered up some fairly helpful fudge if we conceded a bit too), and it would have started us preparing properly for what's increasingly looking like an inevitable no deal outcome.
By all the conceding and can kicking, now May has much less leverage if she walks out now going "no deal" and we're rapidly running out of time to have the planning and grown up conversations required with the EU to minimise the chaos of a no deal outcome.
I see where you are coming from.And yet , the comments you made earlier , to me , seem to include all Aspergers/autistic people. I too live with people on the spectrum. One even has Type 1 diabetes as well , and I am awed at their stoic acceptance of all that dreadful disease throws at them , on top of everything else.
I agree with what AndyJS said further down : There is no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum should not be PM.
Brexiteers challenging May over end date, but surely the mechanism is just as important? Say someone confidently gave a date, but mechanism turns out to be vote in Parliament to endorse everything is in place, what outcome you get in parliament can’t be guaranteed, so that’s not guaranteed end date? We are talking about something that needs to be delivered, inspected and agreed is delivered as fit for purpose before things move on, so simply demanding firm date to such a thing is daft, the actual questions are what needs to happen, and what is the process signing off it has happened?
By the way, why exactly did May choose to make a statement today? As far as I can tell, all it achieved was giving everybody an opportunity to have a go at her
She needed to get a statement out today, because tomorrow is the European Council meeting. If you think they were savage at Salzburg, my guess is it was just warming up for the vast clumps of warm, stinky ordure they're gonna be flinging at May over the next couple of days.
Listen to the tabloids. Drive us laughing over that cliff edge, whilst the wrinkled semi-living carcass of Rupert Murdoch wanks himself sobbing tears of... something that might be joy(?)...into a cup.
DO IT TESSIE, YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO.
The power to unleash that chaos is in your grasp. All you have to do is reach out and grab it.
Boudicca and *every single person she ever knew and cared about* was routed and brutally massacred by a small legion led by a mid level provincial administrator called Paulinus.
I think it's a very apt historio-political metaphor for what might be about to happen.
I see where you are coming from.And yet , the comments you made earlier , to me , seem to include all Aspergers/autistic people. I too live with people on the spectrum. One even has Type 1 diabetes as well , and I am awed at their stoic acceptance of all that dreadful disease throws at them , on top of everything else.
I agree with what AndyJS said further down : There is no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum should not be PM.
We agree. If my use of "autistic" or "Aspergery" seems derogatory - and it can do so, from my rhetorical style - then I apologise.
But in this case it is not a rhetorical gesture, I sincerely believe (from close personal knowledge of the condition) that TMay is on the spectrum.
Does this prevent her being a good PM in all cases? God no. Tony Blair was the opposite of autistic, he was empathetic, charming, sociable, charismatic, smooth to a fault - and yet he nearly destroyed Labour. Sometimes, perhaps often, a high-functioning mildly autistic PM would be a much better idea. Dogged, logical, determined, unpersuadable, diligent, uncaring of public opinion. Perfect.
It's just right now, during Brexit, we need a Blair not a May.
I see where you are coming from.And yet , the comments you made earlier , to me , seem to include all Aspergers/autistic people. I too live with people on the spectrum. One even has Type 1 diabetes as well , and I am awed at their stoic acceptance of all that dreadful disease throws at them , on top of everything else.
I agree with what AndyJS said further down : There is no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum should not be PM.
We agree. If my use of "autistic" or "Aspergery" seems derogatory - and it can do so, from my rhetorical style - then I apologise.
But in this case it is not a rhetorical gesture, I sincerely believe (from close personal knowledge of the condition) that TMay is on the spectrum.
Does this prevent her being a good PM in all cases? God no. Tony Blair was the opposite of autistic, he was empathetic, charming, sociable, charismatic, smooth to a fault - and yet he nearly destroyed Labour. Sometimes, perhaps often, a high-functioning mildly autistic PM would be a much better idea. Dogged, logical, determined, unpersuadable, diligent, uncaring of public opinion. Perfect.
It's just right now, during Brexit, we need a Blair not a May.
If we had Blair back right now we would have EUref2 tomorrow and be back in the EU before the weekend.
Blair the Sunday Times has reported has been visiting EU officials with Chuka Umunna urging them to keep pressing Britain hard as they think they can win a second EU referendum and reverse Brexit
I see where you are coming from.And yet , the comments you made earlier , to me , seem to include all Aspergers/autistic people. I too live with people on the spectrum. One even has Type 1 diabetes as well , and I am awed at their stoic acceptance of all that dreadful disease throws at them , on top of everything else.
I agree with what AndyJS said further down : There is no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum should not be PM.
We agree. If my use of "autistic" or "Aspergery" seems derogatory - and it can do so, from my rhetorical style - then I apologise.
But in this case it is not a rhetorical gesture, I sincerely believe (from close personal knowledge of the condition) that TMay is on the spectrum.
Does this prevent her being a good PM in all cases? God no. Tony Blair was the opposite of autistic, he was empathetic, charming, sociable, charismatic, smooth to a fault - and yet he nearly destroyed Labour. Sometimes, perhaps often, a high-functioning mildly autistic PM would be a much better idea. Dogged, logical, determined, unpersuadable, diligent, uncaring of public opinion. Perfect.
It's just right now, during Brexit, we need a Blair not a May.
Thanks for making it clearer,I agree. However, I cannot go as far as Blair, but I understand what you are saying. I think there are many interests muddying the waters. Meanwhile , the stories about potential medicine shortages (insulin! among other just as important) creates a lot of anxiety and uncertainty , which is anathema to those (physically and mentally) on the spectrum. We observe, but reassure ( while feeling ever more fearful).
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn't believe
She doesn’t think Brexit is a good idea, she doesn’t think limiting immigration is important. That’s why she’s making a mess of it.
Nah. Sean's right - she's making a mess of it because she's not very good. Her qualities (resilience, tenacity) are the very ones which, at this moment in time, are least helpful to the country.
I think we may well be fucked. It's an existential crisis looming. Unless a route to a sensible soft-Brexit or Brexit reversal can be found, the UK will no longer exist in 10 years time.
Yes, I think that the UK is heading the way of Yugoslavia, with the Brexiteers in the role of the Serbs.
Given that a number of Serbs have been prosecuted for genocide do you think that’s a little OTT?
By the way, why exactly did May choose to make a statement today? As far as I can tell, all it achieved was giving everybody an opportunity to have a go at her
And you don't think they will have been watching in Brussels? As Mr Meeks pointed out earlier it was a perfect demonstration of how limited (or indeed non-existent) her room for manoeuvre is.
By the way, why exactly did May choose to make a statement today? As far as I can tell, all it achieved was giving everybody an opportunity to have a go at her
And you don't think they will have been watching in Brussels? As Mr Meeks pointed out earlier it was a perfect demonstration of how limited (or indeed non-existent) her room for manoeuvre is.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
A provincial doctor earns close to £100,000 a year, no? That makes you very definitely ELITE.
I earn that sort of salary - I grew up on a council estate and certainly don't think of myself as elite.
Lucky yes, (but I have worked hard for it), but no, not elite.
You're wrong. Whether you think of yourself that way or not you are.
You really don't know me - I am happier hanging out with a bunch of builders playing poker over a pint or two than public school educated people (who I have nothing against btw)
No way am I part of any elite
Yes, I earn good money but do not move in those circles.
We just are lucky enough to live in a country where talent and hard work can be rewarded. Well, until Corbyn fucks it up anyway.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
A provincial doctor earns close to £100,000 a year, no? That makes you very definitely ELITE.
I earn that sort of salary - I grew up on a council estate and certainly don't think of myself as elite.
Lucky yes, (but I have worked hard for it), but no, not elite.
You're wrong. Whether you think of yourself that way or not you are.
You really don't know me - I am happier hanging out with a bunch of builders playing poker over a pint or two than public school educated people (who I have nothing against btw)
No way am I part of any elite
Yes, I earn good money but do not move in those circles.
We just are lucky enough to live in a country where talent and hard work can be rewarded. Well, until Corbyn fucks it up anyway.
I have a friend in Washinton DC. His wife is a senior scientist at the FDA, and he's an incredibly bright (frustrated) stay at home dad.
He rails against the 1%. Yet he is, without a doubt, a member of the global 0.1%, and probably a member of the US 1%.
Just because you don't see yourself as a member of the elite, doesn't mean you're not. There's a real tendency for all of us to regard anyone who's about 50% richer than ourselves as rich, while we're just reasonably well off.
I see where you are coming from.And yet , the comments you made earlier , to me , seem to include all Aspergers/autistic people. I too live with people on the spectrum. One even has Type 1 diabetes as well , and I am awed at their stoic acceptance of all that dreadful disease throws at them , on top of everything else.
I agree with what AndyJS said further down : There is no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum should not be PM.
We agree. If my use of "autistic" or "Aspergery" seems derogatory - and it can do so, from my rhetorical style - then I apologise.
But in this case it is not a rhetorical gesture, I sincerely believe (from close personal knowledge of the condition) that TMay is on the spectrum.
Does this prevent her being a good PM in all cases? God no. Tony Blair was the opposite of autistic, he was empathetic, charming, sociable, charismatic, smooth to a fault - and yet he nearly destroyed Labour. Sometimes, perhaps often, a high-functioning mildly autistic PM would be a much better idea. Dogged, logical, determined, unpersuadable, diligent, uncaring of public opinion. Perfect.
It's just right now, during Brexit, we need a Blair not a May.
If we had Blair back right now we would have EUref2 tomorrow and be back in the EU before the weekend.
Blair the Sunday Times has reported has been visiting EU officials with Chuka Umunna urging them to keep pressing Britain hard as they think they can win a second EU referendum and reverse Brexit
I do wonder why people think it is appropriate to conspire with a foreign power to undermine the British government
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't un
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
A provincial doctor earns close to £100,000 a year, no? That makes you very definitely ELITE.
I earn that sort of salary - I grew up on a council estate and certainly don't think of myself as elite.
Lucky yes, (but I have worked hard for it), but no, not elite.
You're wrong. Whether you think of yourself that way or not you are.
You really don't know me - I am happier hanging out with a bunch of builders playing poker over a pint or two than public school educated people (who I have nothing against btw)
No way am I part of any elite
Yes, I earn good money but do not move in those circles.
We just are lucky enough to live in a country where talent and hard work can be rewarded. Well, until Corbyn fucks it up anyway.
I have a friend in Washinton DC. His wife is a senior scientist at the FDA, and he's an incredibly bright (frustrated) stay at home dad.
He rails against the 1%. Yet he is, without a doubt, a member of the global 0.1%, and probably a member of the US 1%.
Just because you don't see yourself as a member of the elite, doesn't mean you're not. There's a real tendency for all of us to regard anyone who's about 50% richer than ourselves as rich, while we're just reasonably well off.
most people – even if they are making a lot of money – tend to think that they are not rich, and that the point where someone becomes “rich” is always at a higher earning level than they themselves are on.
The results of the survey bear this out. The higher an income someone is on, the less likely they are to say that earning a certain amount makes a person rich. For instance, while 74% of people with an income of £20,000-29,999 would consider someone on £60,500 a year to be rich, this figure falls to 56% of those whose annual income is £40,000-£49,999 and just 27% of those on £50,000+ a year.
Most British people are in the top 10% globally, even people who aren't well off by UK standards. You could argue that just having access to free health care and free education, which 95% of the world's population doesn't have, makes one a member of a global elite.
BAE and those in the UK MOD who do well out of the UK-Saudi tie in are probably hoping that the kingdom's woes just drift off the radar.....for those in Yemen, blood is on a lot of people's hands and rather sadly I suspect no judgement will ever come to pass. Am I right in thinking that the UK's once vibrant charity sector is nervous about airing concerns after the scandal in haiti and a rather hard nosed DFID (and thats even after P Patel)
A provincial doctor earns close to £100,000 a year, no? That makes you very definitely ELITE.
I earn that sort of salary - I grew up on a council estate and certainly don't think of myself as elite.
Lucky yes, (but I have worked hard for it), but no, not elite.
You're talking about different things. Most people talking about elites are thinking of conspicuous spenders who gather together in luxurious surroundings to socialise and put the world to rights (Osborne and Mandleson spring to mind). You're not one of those - few of us are - perhaps Charles and SeanT, or others who are reticent about it. Sean is talking about people who objectively have no real money worries but who may associate naturally with people who may well do.
Either of them may or may not have a genuine empathy with people who are struggling. But there is a popular reluctance to credit the former in particular with much real concern, so when they hold forth on the need to do this or that (e.g. Remain) for the country's sake, people are pretty sceptical.
It's possible to overcome it - an apparent example is Trump, who is of course extremely well off, yet because of his crude manner is seen as instinctively a bloke who understands ordinary folk. Conversely someone like Duncan Smith who definitely does spend a lot of time worrying about people at the bottom of the ladder don't get much credit for it. (I'm not suggesting that they actually get the policies right, just discussing perception.)
I see where you are coming from.And yet , the comments you made earlier , to me , seem to include all Aspergers/autistic people. I too live with people on the spectrum. One even has Type 1 diabetes as well , and I am awed at their stoic acceptance of all that dreadful disease throws at them , on top of everything else.
I agree with what AndyJS said further down : There is no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum should not be PM.
We agree. If my use of "autistic" or "Aspergery" seems derogatory - and it can do so, from my rhetorical style - then I apologise.
But in this case it is not a rhetorical gesture, I sincerely believe (from close personal knowledge of the condition) that TMay is on the spectrum.
Does this prevent her being a good PM in all cases? God no. Tony Blair was the opposite of autistic, he was empathetic, charming, sociable, charismatic, smooth to a fault - and yet he nearly destroyed Labour. Sometimes, perhaps often, a high-functioning mildly autistic PM would be a much better idea. Dogged, logical, determined, unpersuadable, diligent, uncaring of public opinion. Perfect.
It's just right now, during Brexit, we need a Blair not a May.
If we had Blair back right now we would have EUref2 tomorrow and be back in the EU before the weekend.
Blair the Sunday Times has reported has been visiting EU officials with Chuka Umunna urging them to keep pressing Britain hard as they think they can win a second EU referendum and reverse Brexit
I do wonder why people think it is appropriate to conspire with a foreign power to undermine the British government
Blair believes he is still the British Government....
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
A provincial doctor earns close to £100,000 a year, no? That makes you very definitely ELITE.
I earn that sort of salary - I grew up on a council estate and certainly don't think of myself as elite.
Lucky yes, (but I have worked hard for it), but no, not elite.
You're wrong. Whether you think of yourself that way or not you are.
Agreed, Anyone who earns £100k is part of the elite whether they are Left or Right, And I am politically closer to Floater than most.
I shall just say Pff!
2 things which you may not have considered, low wage property owners in London and the SE who incidentally have become "rich" to the increase in the value, will have to move out to release the equity and buy property elsewhere (which of course, increase prices elsewhere), secondly, most people will need medical and social care in their final years, which means the government will effectively steal the property to pay for it.
The arguments for equity release will fail as I believe that the products on offer will be a PPI type scandal of epoch proportions. The companies will not be getting any of the money back, or the interest kept on their books, until the property is sold and no guarantee that house prices will keep rising or even remain steady in the unforeseeable future. And if the property is under equity release, then the "owner" now resident, will not be able to pay for the care, or the company be able to sell the property until the person dies (increasing number of dementia cases). And this just ignores the Leasehold mess that also has to be sorted out (if Scotland could do it back in the 60's with feu hold, then surely England can do now)
Comments
As I said half truths. The simple fact is that even after all of this there is little to no positive vision for remain. It's the "well the other way is too hard" option. I'm not sure a campaign can be based on that.
The Assad documentary is being repeated on BBC2. Someone flagged it up a few days ago.
The combined population of Australia and New Zealand has just reached 30 million.
http://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/0/1647509ef7e25faaca2568a900154b63?OpenDocument=
http://archive.stats.govt.nz/tools_and_services/population_clock.aspx
Sorry to be so late with this but I've on just to my PC.
As much as hate to disagree with OGH these VW figures are limited in the reporting.
From VW Annual Report 2017
Passenger Car Deliveries :--
World Wide sales are 10,038,650
Western Europe 3,157,107
Germany 1,131,414
UK 531592 = 16.8%
Making the UK (non domestic) it's second biggest market behind USA however I think most of the USA product are built in the US!
Worldwide 10,038,650
Volkswagen Passenger Cars 6,230,229
Audi 1,878,105
ŠKODA 1,200,535
SEAT 468,431
Bentley 11,089
Lamborghini 3,815
Porsche 246,375
Bugatti 71
Mike S
Lucky yes, (but I have worked hard for it), but no, not elite.
Corbyn, I think, would be uninterested in traditional patriotism (not in the sense of hating it, but not relating to it either), but he does identify strongly with "ordinary people living in Britain" (in which he'd certainly include immigrants). It's a form of left-wing patriotism which has quite an honourable history, even though it's not what we'd usually think of by the term.
Actually, if you were Brexiteers from the moment the campaign began, now hunt is sat at the table with you, wouldn’t you be side eyeing him suspiciously? He’s wetter than wetty mcwetface pouring wet into yesterday’s incontinence pad. At FO now but certainly taken road to Damascus at somepoint
She should have stood her ground a year ago, when the wretched backstop was first mooted, and told them that it was no Irish Sea boarder, or no deal, and by the way we aren't going to help police the Irish boarder one little bit if you make them have one.
That would have had two effects - it would have called the EUs bluff (and probably they would have offered up some fairly helpful fudge if we conceded a bit too), and it would have started us preparing properly for what's increasingly looking like an inevitable no deal outcome.
By all the conceding and can kicking, now May has much less leverage if she walks out now going "no deal" and we're rapidly running out of time to have the planning and grown up conversations required with the EU to minimise the chaos of a no deal outcome.
I agree with what AndyJS said further down :
There is no reason why someone on the autistic spectrum should not be PM.
https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/1051968029440000000
Listen to the tabloids. Drive us laughing over that cliff edge, whilst the wrinkled semi-living carcass of Rupert Murdoch wanks himself sobbing tears of... something that might be joy(?)...into a cup.
DO IT TESSIE, YOU KNOW YOU WANT TO.
The power to unleash that chaos is in your grasp. All you have to do is reach out and grab it.
Boudicca and *every single person she ever knew and cared about* was routed and brutally massacred by a small legion led by a mid level provincial administrator called Paulinus.
I think it's a very apt historio-political metaphor for what might be about to happen.
Blair the Sunday Times has reported has been visiting EU officials with Chuka Umunna urging them to keep pressing Britain hard as they think they can win a second EU referendum and reverse Brexit
Meanwhile , the stories about potential medicine shortages (insulin! among other just as important) creates a lot of anxiety and uncertainty , which is anathema to those (physically and mentally) on the spectrum. We observe, but reassure ( while feeling ever more fearful).
I wonder if Leo has had indigestion?
No way am I part of any elite
Yes, I earn good money but do not move in those circles.
We just are lucky enough to live in a country where talent and hard work can be rewarded.
Well, until Corbyn fucks it up anyway.
He rails against the 1%. Yet he is, without a doubt, a member of the global 0.1%, and probably a member of the US 1%.
Just because you don't see yourself as a member of the elite, doesn't mean you're not. There's a real tendency for all of us to regard anyone who's about 50% richer than ourselves as rich, while we're just reasonably well off.
The results of the survey bear this out. The higher an income someone is on, the less likely they are to say that earning a certain amount makes a person rich. For instance, while 74% of people with an income of £20,000-29,999 would consider someone on £60,500 a year to be rich, this figure falls to 56% of those whose annual income is £40,000-£49,999 and just 27% of those on £50,000+ a year.
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/06/02/how-much-money-do-you-need-earn-year-be-rich/
In terms of wealth, you need a net worth of £585,000, which will include many London home owners.
https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/050615/are-you-top-one-percent-world.asp
Well that's OK then.
And this is completely unintended, too.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-middle-east-45857729/yemen-could-be-worst-famine-in-100-years
Either of them may or may not have a genuine empathy with people who are struggling. But there is a popular reluctance to credit the former in particular with much real concern, so when they hold forth on the need to do this or that (e.g. Remain) for the country's sake, people are pretty sceptical.
It's possible to overcome it - an apparent example is Trump, who is of course extremely well off, yet because of his crude manner is seen as instinctively a bloke who understands ordinary folk. Conversely someone like Duncan Smith who definitely does spend a lot of time worrying about people at the bottom of the ladder don't get much credit for it. (I'm not suggesting that they actually get the policies right, just discussing perception.)
The arguments for equity release will fail as I believe that the products on offer will be a PPI type scandal of epoch proportions. The companies will not be getting any of the money back, or the interest kept on their books, until the property is sold and no guarantee that house prices will keep rising or even remain steady in the unforeseeable future. And if the property is under equity release, then the "owner" now resident, will not be able to pay for the care, or the company be able to sell the property until the person dies (increasing number of dementia cases). And this just ignores the Leasehold mess that also has to be sorted out (if Scotland could do it back in the 60's with feu hold, then surely England can do now)