There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
This is a very astute post.
The Tory party won’t survive a Remain position.
The UK may not survive a No Deal position, Scotland and NI may both leave.
It is a question of country or party. Better Remain or SM+CU and then a PM Corbyn then pick a Brexiteer as Leader of the Opposition than break up the country
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
How are you going to explain to people on the doorstep that FOM has continued unabated, despite Brexit, and every British benefit is also paid to EU citizens in the UK?
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
This is a very astute post.
The Tory party won’t survive a Remain position.
Presumably remain will only occur if sanctioned by a 2nd referendum so no need for any party to campaign on leave or remain at a GE. A maserstroke for May would be to propose a free parliamentary vote in the event of no agreement.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The Tory Party that backed Remain would have very, very few activists working for it at the next election.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
This is a very astute post.
The Tory party won’t survive a Remain position.
Presumably remain will only occur if sanctioned by a 2nd referendum so no need for any party to campaign on leave or remain at a GE. A maserstroke for May would be to propose a free parliamentary vote in the event of no agreement.
And watch as Labour and traitor Tories subvert the public vote? Under a Tory government. That's 20 years out of power, right there.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
How are you going to explain to people on the doorstep that FOM has continued unabated, despite Brexit, and every British benefit is also paid to EU citizens in the UK?
We could have controlled FOM in the EU had Blair imposed transition controls on FOM from the new accession nations. Plus Eastern European migration has declined since the EU referendum anyway.
In any case polling is quite clear a majority of voters are not prepared to accept No Deal Brexit, so permanently ending FOM does not conquer all if it trashes the economy and the Union
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The Tory Party that backed Remain would have very, very few activists working for it at the next election.
I'd be one of the founder members of whatever new right wing/leave movement is born out of the ashes of the party. Let the likes of Meeks and TSE have the rump of the 25% of remain Tories.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.
Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.
Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'
Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'
The policy makers should just cancel Brexit. Those that foolishly supported Leave need to admit that they did not have the faintest idea of what they were talking about and they need to, albeit belatedly, apologise to the Nation.
Not a great fan of a second referendum - it will just deepen the massive divide already in the country.
Cancellation only hope....
Brexit = a calamity! Brexiteers = deluded fantasists!
So you think giving people a vote then cancelling it because you don't agree with the result is the way to go?
I wonder why people despise the political class
Well, it's the only hope for this country. The Referendum was won on false and incomplete information with a dose of xenophobia layered on for good measure.
The alternative is the hardest of hard Brexits which will cripple this country for decades.
The choice is clear, a crippling Brexit or the cancellation of such madness.
Can you explain why you think leaving a trade block would have more effect on us than a total war?
Total war???
Madness.
The last war didn’t cripple us for decades. I can’t think of a single modern historical event that did.
Describing the leaving of a trade block as crippling us for decades is utterly mad. The kind of hyperbole that causes sensible British people to laugh.
Claiming Brexit to be not quite as bad as total war, while true, is hardly an endorsement. Remember we voted for this nonsense whereas invasion in 1939 was forced on us. I'm not laughing.
Does anyone else have a problem viewing linked Twitter posts on this forum? Just started doing this to me.
Invasion wasnt forced on us we declared war on Germany
Delia Smith to lead Saturday's 'People's Vote' March in London.
Gary Linekar, Dominic West, Lena Beasley, Michael Morpurgo, Tracey Ullman and Andy Serkis have recorded video messages of support. Armando Iannucci, Sir Patrick Stewart, Natascha McElhone and Jamie Carragher have sponsored coaches to the march.
Mrs Brown star Brendan O'Carroll has told marchers 'It could be the March of your lives.'
Bob Geldof is also involved and has promised to 'bring democracy to Parliament.'
On the topic of the post, regardless of the numbers, I've always seen the argument that we don't have to shift because the German car-makers (or other such industry) will cause the EU to shift as being rather similar to giving advice to the driver of a lightweight hatchback in a game of chicken with the driver of a lorry - the inconvenience of your impact will cause him to swerve; you can just close your eyes and ignore him. It'll be fine. It'll be fine.
It may even work, but you've got to bear in mind that the other driver might have the same reasoning as you, and with far more justification. Which leads to torn metal, smashed fuel tanks dripping, and the mangled body of the hatchback driver.
There’s a tasty spat brewing between France and Italy. France has been caught dumping illegal immigrants in Italy. It’s already apologised for the “error”. You can imagine how that is going down...
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Anything is better than allowing Corbyn into Number 10
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Anything is better than allowing Corbyn into Number 10
No, I would rather have Corbyn in Number 10 than a No Deal Brexit which leads to Scotland and NI leaving the UK (though preferably a Corbyn in Number 10 without a majority)
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by which the Union would be dissolved in the event of no deal? If anything no deal will force the four parts of the Union tighter, at least in the short term. There won't be anywhere else to go for a while.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years oent
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by which the Union would be dissolved in the event of no deal? If anything no deal will force the four parts of the Union tighter, at least in the short term. There won't be anywhere else to go for a while.
Survation had a Scottish poll a fortnight ago putting Yes to independence on 52% with No Deal, a poll in NI put support for a United Ireland on 56% if NI leaves the SM and CU
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Anything is better than allowing Corbyn into Number 10
Instant economic meltdown and the break-up of the UK?
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with much of what you say, this part is simply and demonstrably untrue. She has spent far too long avoiding taking decisions due to worrying about her party and not what is best for the country, but it is impossible to square her actions of the past 4 months, which have led to increasingly severe disagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her specifically, with the charge that she is not, belatedly, trying to do what is best for the country. Too little too late, perhaps, but I think you overdo it on the critique there, it is simply not credible to explain May's actions for the better part of this year by suggesting she has not cared at all about what is best for this country. What, exactly, do you think her motivation has been picking a fight with a huge part of her own party? Fun? May is inadequate for the task at hand, and she is architect of plenty of her own troubles, but she has at least tried toward the end.
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP and Tories on the border issue. For the former it is an existential threat and to the latter it speaks to the core of what the party stands for. May was stupid to agree to a backstop of any kind and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years oent
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by which the Union would be dissolved in the event of no deal? If anything no deal will force the four parts of the Union tighter, at least in the short term. There won't be anywhere else to go for a while.
Survation had a Scottish poll a fortnight ago putting Yes to independence on 52% with No Deal, a poll in NI put support for a United Ireland on 56% if NI leaves the SM and CU
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years oent
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by which the Union would be dissolved in the event of no deal? If anything no deal will force the four parts of the Union tighter, at least in the short term. There won't be anywhere else to go for a while.
Survation had a Scottish poll a fortnight ago putting Yes to independence on 52% with No Deal, a poll in NI put support for a United Ireland on 56% if NI leaves the SM and CU
That's a poll. Let's see what the vote says.
The idea that a messy extrication from a recent trade bloc would provoke Scots to attempt to extricate themselves from a 300+ year, full blown monetary, currency, military and social union is for the birds.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years oent
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by which the Union would be dissolved in the event of no deal? If anything no deal will force the four parts of the Union tighter, at least in the short term. There won't be anywhere else to go for a while.
Survation had a Scottish poll a fortnight ago putting Yes to independence on 52% with No Deal, a poll in NI put support for a United Ireland on 56% if NI leaves the SM and CU
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Anything is better than allowing Corbyn into Number 10
I'm trying to think of something worse than Corbyn.
Other than McDonnell or Abbott, I think I have to agree.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Indeed. What is the purpose of a political party? Why should any given one even exist? Surely it's to deliver what its members consider to be the best way forward for the country. Or even, at the very least, to endeavour to deny another party the ability to do (what the first party considers to be) harm to the country.
Absent these and it's not a political party. It's a political parasite. And, if it does abandon this purpose, it totally deserves to die, in that case, having so mutated from its original purpose into merely a damaging tribe, sucking resources from its host and occupying a position that denies other parties space.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years oent
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by which the Union would be dissolved in the event of no deal? If anything no deal will force the four parts of the Union tighter, at least in the short term. There won't be anywhere else to go for a while.
Survation had a Scottish poll a fortnight ago putting Yes to independence on 52% with No Deal, a poll in NI put support for a United Ireland on 56% if NI leaves the SM and CU
That's a poll. Let's see what the vote says.
I would rather not dice with death with the Union thankyou very much
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years oent
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by whica while.
Survation had a Scottish poll a fortnight ago putting Yes to independence on 52% with No Deal, a poll in NI put support for a United Ireland on 56% if NI leaves the SM and CU
That's a poll. Let's see what the vote says.
The idea that a messy extrication from a recent trade bloc would provoke Scots to attempt to extricate themselves from a 300+ year, full blown monetary, currency, military and social union is for the birds.
Only for those blinded by the hardest of Brexit's at all costs, as BigG confirms with his own family it is a very real threat if No Deal
Those who want a deal will be very annoyed, the EU is pretty keen on no deal it seems.
The EU has always been very keen on a deal that left us significantly worse off or stopped us leaving. That is why they have been so duplicitous and intransigent all the way through. That is also why the negotiations were left to Juncker and Barnier rather than individuals who could pass for sane, competent, honest and sober in a reasonably clear light.
They have now realised the second goal is unattainable, therefore they are revving up the first one.
The risks inherent in No Deal are considerable for the EU, but as it's not about sense but about politics now they don't care any more.
Good night.
As I keep on saying they have to try and punish us.
Now, why would anyone want to remain in that club?
Anything is better than allowing Corbyn into Number 10
Unsurprisingly I agree with that. Which is why I'm disappointed that May didn't prepare the ground at all in Brussels for her deal and instead spent her time bullying the cabinet to support it. It wasn't great but it would have been enough to beat Corbyn in 2022 and by 2027 Labour would have to have a rethink to win.
I think either no deal or remain results in Corbyn winning. No deal probably results in a minority government for Jez but remain results in a huge Jez majority.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Anything is better than allowing Corbyn into Number 10
Instant economic meltdown and the break-up of the UK?
Followed by Corbyn in Number 10 as PM of whatever the state Number 10 ends up in decides to call itself?
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP and Tories on the border issue. For the former it is an existential threat and to the latter it speaks to the core of what the party stands for. May was stupid to agree to a backstop of any kind and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Those who want a deal will be very annoyed, the EU is pretty keen on no deal it seems.
The EU has always been very keen on a deal that left us significantly worse off or stopped us leaving. That is why they have been so duplicitous and intransigent all the way through. That is also why the negotiations were left to Juncker and Barnier rather than individuals who could pass for sane, competent, honest and sober in a reasonably clear light.
They have now realised the second goal is unattainable, therefore they are revving up the first one.
The risks inherent in No Deal are considerable for the EU, but as it's not about sense but about politics now they don't care any more.
Good night.
As I keep on saying they have to try and punish us.
Now, why would anyone want to remain in that club?
No they are not trying to punish us. It is just that if you are no longer member of the Union you do not get the privileges of membership.
It really is quite easy for anyone to understand, apart from Leavers!
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years oent
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by whica while.
Survation had a Scottish poll a fortnight ago putting Yes to independence on 52% with No Deal, a poll in NI put support for a United Ireland on 56% if NI leaves the SM and CU
That's a poll. Let's see what the vote says.
The idea that a messy extrication from a recent trade bloc would provoke Scots to attempt to extricate themselves from a 300+ year, full blown monetary, currency, military and social union is for the birds.
Only for those blinded by the hardest of Brexit's at all costs, as BigG confirms with his own family it is a very real threat if No Deal
HYUFD; I have family that live in the EU. I have a business that exports to the EU.
I don’t want no deal, but in the absence of the EU negotiating in good faith, we have no choice.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Doesn't matter, that's how the campaign would go down. Remain/Leave was already seen as that, a second ref would be even worse for remain in that sense given it would be Westminster elites in the commons and lords telling the people "fuck you, give us the answer we want".
Those who want a deal will be very annoyed, the EU is pretty keen on no deal it seems.
The EU has always been very keen on a deal that left us significantly worse off or stopped us leaving. That is why they have been so duplicitous and intransigent all the way through. That is also why the negotiations were left to Juncker and Barnier rather than individuals who could pass for sane, competent, honest and sober in a reasonably clear light.
They have now realised the second goal is unattainable, therefore they are revving up the first one.
The risks inherent in No Deal are considerable for the EU, but as it's not about sense but about politics now they don't care any more.
Good night.
As I keep on saying they have to try and punish us.
Now, why would anyone want to remain in that club?
No, really they don't. All they're saying is that if you don't want to be in the club anymore, you don't get the benefits of belonging. Otherwise why would any member bother to cough up the membership fee? Just like any club anywhere.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
The best solution is a hard border along the Cheviots.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Doesn't matter, that's how the campaign would go down. Remain/Leave was already seen as that, a second ref would be even worse for remain in that sense given it would be Westminster elites in the commons and lords telling the people "fuck you, give us the answer we want".
No, it would be saying "We have been unable to obtain for you what you wanted. The best we can get is this bucket of sh!t over here. If that's what really you want, go for it, but we really don't think you're going to like it."
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with much of what you say, this part is simply and demonstrably untrue. She has spent far too long avoiding taking decisions due to worrying about her party and not what is best for the country, but it is impossible to square her actions of the past 4 months, which have led to increasingly severe disagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her specifically, with the charge that she is not, belatedly, trying to do what is best for the country. Too little too late, perhaps, but I think you overdo it on the critique there, it is simply not credible to explain May's actions for the better part of this year by suggesting she has not cared at all about what is best for this country. What, exactly, do you think her motivation has been picking a fight with a huge part of her own party? Fun? May is inadequate for the task at hand, and she is architect of plenty of her own troubles, but she has at least tried toward the end.
Her problems in the last few months are a direct consequence of the decisions she took in the months after she became PM and those were done in order to paint herself as some new Thatcher and more Brexity than the Brexiteers. She is reaping now what she sowed then. She may be trying her best but she has been quite incapable of moving outside the boundaries of her party. She is not a leader. She has picked these fights beause she combines a lack of leadership and imagination with stubborness. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years oent
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union lehis moderate MPs
Please explain to me the mechanism by whica while.
Survation had a Scottish poll a fortnight ago putting Yes to independence on 52% with No Deal, a poll in NI put support for a United Ireland on 56% if NI leaves the SM and CU
That's a poll. Let's see what the vote says.
The idea that a messy extrication from a recent trade bloc would provoke Scots to attempt to extricate themselves from a 300+ year, full blown monetary, currency, military and social union is for the birds.
Only for those blinded by the hardest of Brexit's at all costs, as BigG confirms with his own family it is a very real threat if No Deal
HYUFD; I have family that live in the EU. I have a business that exports to the EU.
I don’t want no deal, but in the absence of the EU negotiating in good faith, we have no choice.
Fine if leaving the SM and CU comes before all else for you that is up to you but remember No Deal creates a big threat to the Union and a severe risk of economic downturn. Don't say you weren't warned!
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
The only way it will be Remain will be if voters themselves vote for it in EUref2 (which is likely against No Deal) otherwise it will be SM +CU with most Tory MPs still voting for No Deal over that but enough Labour + LD + SNP + Tory Remain MPs voting for it to pass it given the hung parliament
And if we as a party put forwards a vote with remain on the ballot paper we are finished. Tbh, we'd be finished even if leave won again (which it probably would on the basis of a people vs the elites campaign). The level of betrayal would not be seen as forgivable by far too many of our voters if we either supported a remain position or allowed it to happen by proposing EUref2: Electric Boogaloo.
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
I would rather live with 15 years or even 20 years in opposition than allow the nationalists to destroy the UK and the economy with No Deal Brexit, sorry. We were out for 13 years from 1997 to 2010 anyway and Labour was out for 18 years from 1979 to 1997, both the Tories and Labour eventually came back to power.
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
I'm sure, though I'd venture that even 5 years of Corbyn would do more damage to both the economy and Union than no deal would, let alone 15.
With No Deal Brexit there may be no Union left, Corbyn would do economic damage no doubt but at least there would be a country still there. In any case at most he will likely only get in with LD and SNP support and constrained by his moderate MPs
The best solution is a hard border along the Cheviots.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with much of what you say, this part is simply and demonstrably untrue. She has spent far too long avoiding taking decisions due to worrying about her party and not what is best for the country, but it is impossible to square her actions of the past 4 months, which have led to increasingly severe disagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her specifically, with the charge that she is not, belatedly, trying to do what is best for the country. Too little too late, perhaps, but I think you overdo it on the critique there, it is simply not credible to explain May's actions for the better part of this year by suggesting she has not cared at all about what is best for this country. What, exactly, do you think her motivation has been picking a fight with a huge part of her own party? Fun? May is inadequate for the task at hand, and she is architect of plenty of her own troubles, but she has at least tried toward the end.
Assume May's only goal is to stay in Number 10 for as many days as possible. What would she have done differently in the last 4 months?
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Doesn't matter, that's how the campaign would go down. Remain/Leave was already seen as that, a second ref would be even worse for remain in that sense given it would be Westminster elites in the commons and lords telling the people "fuck you, give us the answer we want".
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP and Tories on the border issue. For the former it is an existential threat and to the latter it speaks to the core of what the party stands for. May was stupid to agree to a backstop of any kind and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
The EU will NOT even temporarily give way on Ireland; they will back Eire to the hilt.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Doesn't matter, that's how the campaign would go down. Remain/Leave was already seen as that, a second ref would be even worse for remain in that sense given it would be Westminster elites in the commons and lords telling the people "fuck you, give us the answer we want".
Sums up the Leave approach... the truth "Doesn't matter".
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP and Tories on the border issue. For the former it is an existential threat and to the latter it speaks to the core of what the party stands for. May was stupid to agree to a backstop of any kind and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
The EU will NOT even temporarily give way on Ireland; they will back Eire to the hilt.
And then what?
"We're building a border that we don't want and we're going to make Ireland pay for it and they really don't want it"
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Doesn't matter, that's how the campaign would go down. Remain/Leave was already seen as that, a second ref would be even worse for remain in that sense given it would be Westminster elites in the commons and lords telling the people "fuck you, give us the answer we want".
Sums up the Leave approach... the truth "Doesn't matter".
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP and Tories on the border issue. For the former it is an existential threat and to the latter it speaks to the core of what the party stands for. May was stupid to agree to a backstop of any kind and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
The EU will NOT even temporarily give way on Ireland; they will back Eire to the hilt.
And then what? "We're building a border that we don't want and we're going to make Ireland pay for it and they really don't want it"
Really?
I don't expect a physical hard border; a hard Brexit would probably lead to an early and successful plebiscite on Irish re-unification.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Doesn't matter, that's how the campaign would go down. Remain/Leave was already seen as that, a second ref would be even worse for remain in that sense given it would be Westminster elites in the commons and lords telling the people "fuck you, give us the answer we want".
Sums up the Leave approach... the truth "Doesn't matter".
Leave 2 campaign: "What part of the word Leave didn't you understand?' / 'Leave means leave'
Remain 2 campaign: "It isn't worth it' / 'Think of your job'
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Doesn't matter, that's how the campaign would go down. Remain/Leave was already seen as that, a second ref would be even worse for remain in that sense given it would be Westminster elites in the commons and lords telling the people "fuck you, give us the answer we want".
Sums up the Leave approach... the truth "Doesn't matter".
It doesn't. That's why you got beaten by a bus.
Indeed.
But ultimately the true impact of a No Deal Brexit will be impossible to ignore, and we'll be grovelling to the EU to take us back in in 5 years time.
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Doesn't matter, that's how the campaign would go down. Remain/Leave was already seen as that, a second ref would be even worse for remain in that sense given it would be Westminster elites in the commons and lords telling the people "fuck you, give us the answer we want".
No - it would be people being told the truth about what deal, if any, is achievable and being asked to decide if they want to go ahead with that or remain. If you are so confident in the Leave case why are you so scared of asking people. Those who talk about “the people” seem awfully afraid to ask the people when the reality - rather than all the bullshit promises of 2 years ago - is upon us.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with much of what you say, this part is simply and demonstrably untrue. She has spent far too long avoiding taking decisions due to worrying about her party and not what is best for the country, but it is impossible to square her actions of the past 4 months, which have led to increasingly severe disagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her problems in the last few months are a direct consequence of the decisions she took in the months after she became PM and those were done in order to paint herself as some new Thatcher and more Brexity than the Brexiteers. She is reaping now what she sowed then. She may be trying her best but she has been quite incapable of moving outside the boundaries of her party. She is not a leader. She has picked these fights beause she combines a lack of leadership and imagination with stubborness. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP and Tories on the border issue. For the former it is an existential threat and to the latter it speaks to the core of what the party stands for. May was stupid to agree to a backstop of any kind and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
I see some of those who piped a gin marinaded eye at the luvvies & elitists who gathered in Trafalgar Sq in 2014 to save a union are now sneering at the luvvies & elitists who will be marching past Trafalgar Sq to save a union this Saturday.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with much of what you say, this part is simply and demonstrably untrue. She has spent far too long avoiding taking decisions due to worrying about her party and not what is best for the country, but it is impossible to square her actions of the past 4 months, which have led to increasingly severe disagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her specifically, with the charge that she is not, belatedly, trying to do what is best for the country. Too little too late, perhaps, but I think you overdo it on the critique there, it is simply not credible to explain May's actions for the better part of this year by suggesting she has not cared at all about what is best for this country. What, exactly, do you think her motivation has been picking a fight with a huge part of her own party? Fun? May is inadequate for the task at hand, and she is architect of plenty of her own troubles, but she has at least tried toward the end.
Her problems in the last few months are a direct consequence of the decisions she took in the months after she became PM and those were done in order to paint herself as some new Thatcher and more Brexity than the Brexiteers. She is reaping now what she sowed then. She may be trying her best but she has been quite incapable of moving outside the boundaries of her party. She is not a leader. She has picked these fights beause she combines a lack of leadership and imagination with stubborness. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Agree with you there. There was too much spin in politics pre-2015 but oh how a little bit in the last two years would have made the path smoother.
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP
The EU will NOT even temporarily give way on Ireland; they will back Eire to the hilt.
And then what?
"We're building a border that we don't want and we're going to make Ireland pay for it and they really don't want it"
Really?
As if you think anyone in Ireland is going to care about whatever border that can be thought up. As it stands now, TMay or whoever in the Tory Party takes over from her, is more than likely going to Buckingham Palace to explain to HMQ that she is no longer the Queen of Northern Ireland... .
With the greatesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Ok, say for a minute we get the no deal vs remain EUref2. How does that campaign go down? It's a very predictable chain of events and it results in no deal winning, IMO. A campaign which puts the people on one side and the elites on the other only ever has one winner.
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP and Tories on the border issue. For the former it is an existential threat and to the latter it speaks to the core of what the party stands for. May was stupid to agree to a backstop of any kind and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
I am heartily sick of this "people on one side and the elites on the other" crap being wheeled out in support of Leave.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
Yeah, but they're not all marching down the Mall saying "we are the people" are they?
They know they'd be laughed at. That's the point. Elite Leavers know they are an elite and therefore don't do it
It's the unself-awareness of rich Remainers that is killing their cause. A bunch of billionaire celebs parading through London saying "shut up you working class racist twats, and also can you change your minds?" is not a good look.
It would, for a start, have much more effect if they marched through a Leaver heartland and took on the locals. Sunderland, south Wales, Stoke. Let's see Delia and Lineker and the rest of them walk through the Potteries.
You should come along on Saturday. Sure there will be a few celebs, but many more ordinary folk. Indeed the most high profile are likely to be @albawhitewolf and @Femi_sorry Both of whom have been actively campaigning, including in Sunderland.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Standing Ovation!!!!!
The last two, shambolic years have been inflicted on us by a party that has put itself before the country. May’s red lines were put in place specifically to assuage the Buccaneers and get the Brexit press onside. She probably knows now how foolish she was, but it’s far, far too late.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
snip oo late, perhaps, but I think you overdo it on the critique there, it is simply not credible to explain May's actions for the better part of this year by suggesting she has not cared at all about what is best for this country. What, exactly, do you think her motivation has been picking a fight with a huge part of her own party? Fun? May is inadequate for the task at hand, and she is architect of plenty of her own troubles, but she has at least tried toward the end.
Her problems in the last few months are a direct consequence of the decisions she took in the months after she became PM and those were done in order to paint herself as some new Thatcher and more Brexity than the Brexiteers. She is reaping now what she sowed then. She may be trying her best but she has been quite incapable of moving outside the boundaries of her party. She is not a leader. She has picked these fights beause she combines a lack of leadership and imagination with stubborness. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
May has absolutely no Foreign Office or related experience on her CV.
I humbly put it to the committee that this is a factor.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
I mean, that's great and all, but normally when somebody on disputes something they mean "that's not true", not "that isn't saleable to the electorate as true".
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with much of what you say, this part is simply and demonstrably untrue. She has spent far too long avoiding taking decisions due to worrying about her party and not what is best for the country, but it is impossible to square her actions of the past 4 months, which have led to increasingly severe disagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her specifically, with the charge that she is not, belatedly, trying to do what is best for the country. Too little too late, perhaps, but I think you overdo it on the critique there, it is simply not credible to explain May's actions for the better part of this year by suggesting she has not cared at all about what is best for this country. What, exactly, do you think her motivation has been picking a fight with a huge part of her own party? Fun? May is inadequate for the task at hand, and she is architect of plenty of her own troubles, but she has at least tried toward the end.
Her problems in the last few months are a direct consequence of the decisions she took in the months after she became PM and those were done in order to paint herself as some new Thatcher and more Brexity than the Brexiteers. She is reaping now what she sowed then. She may be trying her best but she has been quite incapable of moving outside the boundaries of her party. She is not a leader. She has picked these fights beause she combines a lack of leadership and imagination with stubborness. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
I don't blame Mrs May for Brexit turning out as I confidently expected it turn out. Yes she made some bad calls, but to her credit she is almost the only politician now who is seriously trying to make something out of Brexit.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
Ahem, Japanese bank now. Don't give me that provincial doctor rubbish, public sector fatcats are all elites. I don't deny that I'm clearly part of an internationalist elite, I've spent more time in airports in the last 5 years than 99% of people will spend in a lifetime. I'm not the average leave voter, though.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calamitous election where she actually refused to debate "because I'm doing more important things", etc etc etc
OMG.
She's a fucking Aspergery idiot, that's all there is to it. A terrible, over promoted middle ranking politician of very little imagination. She may be a political midget eerily surrounded by even smaller dwarves, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
With the greatest respect, but I think you are delusional if you think that abandoning the country to a No Deal Brexit followed by a Corbyn government will only result in you being out of power for 5 years. Stop thinking of just the party and think of the country instead.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
Standing Ovation!!!!!
The last two, shambolic years have been inflicted on us by a party that has put itself before the country. May’s red lines were put in place specifically to assuage the Buccaneers and get the Brexit press onside. She probably knows now how foolish she was, but it’s far, far too late.
If Cameron had not promised a referendum in order to save the Tories, UKIP could well have held the balance of power and there’d have been a referendum anyway
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
A provincial doctor earns close to £100,000 a year, no? That makes you very definitely ELITE.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calamitous election where she actually refused to debate "because I'm doing more important things", etc etc etc
OMG.
She's a fucking Aspergery idiot, that's all there is to it. A terrible, over promoted middle ranking politician of very little imagination. She may be a political midget eerily surrounded by even smaller dwarves, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
He’s saying the leaders of the campaigns are elite isn’t he? Not you
At this moment I think TM still stands, the mutineers seem impotent, and the Country is in uproar with itself.
People say anyone is better than TM but no one wants it, other than Corbyn who is just a protest leader
I am not fighting anymore, just watching, listening, and hoping a way will be found out of the maze
And before I bid everyone a good nights rest, just think on that maybe the ordinary voter sees TM as the only one in the room who is grown up and has the best chance of achieving a deal
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn't believe in the Brexit promises she should have said so and refused the premiership, 2, if she did, she's totally fucked up
Looks to me like she wanted the mantle of the New Thatcher and didn't care if she lied about her Brexit beliefs to do it. Turns out the Brexit task is WAY beyond her skillset.
She's dreadful. Sadly she is surrounded by even more dreadful geeks. We're fucked.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn't believe in the Brexit promises she should have said so and refused the premiership, 2, if she did, she's totally fucked up
Looks to me like she wanted the mantle of the New Thatcher and didn't care if she lied about her Brexit beliefs to do it. Turns out the Brexit task is WAY beyond her skillset.
She's dreadful. Sadly she is surrounded by even more dreadful geeks. We're fucked.
She doesn’t think Brexit is a good idea, she doesn’t think limiting immigration is important. That’s why she’s making a mess of it.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
He’s saying the leaders of the campaigns are elite isn’t he? Not you
The leaders of both campaigns can be fairly considered elites. And the overwhelming majority of both those who voted for Leave and those who voted for Remain were ordinary people.
Thus the whole 'Elites versus the People' meme is total bullshit, fake news, spin.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
He’s saying the leaders of the campaigns are elite isn’t he? Not you
The leaders of both campaigns can be fairly considered elites. And the overwhelming majority of both those who voted for Leave and those who voted for Remain were ordinary people.
Thus the whole 'Elites versus the People' meme is total bullshit, fake news, spin.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
He’s saying the leaders of the campaigns are elite isn’t he? Not you
They always are! leaders are by definition elite. Leave was led by public school educated financiers and journalists claiming to be the voice of Britain.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn't believe in the Brexit promises she should have said so and refused the premiership, 2, if she did, she's totally fucked up
Looks to me like she wanted the mantle of the New Thatcher and didn't care if she lied about her Brexit beliefs to do it. Turns out the Brexit task is WAY beyond her skillset.
She's dreadful. Sadly she is surrounded by even more dreadful geeks. We're fucked.
I thought you said May was fantastic a few months ago.
This is what the remain camp didn't and still don't understand. The best political campaigns are built on difficult to attack half truths. Was Turkey going to join the EU? No, of course not. Was there enough truth in the claim to make the other side defend it and explain it, yes. Do we really send £350m per week to the EU? No, but the figure was close enough and the remain response of "well it's actually only £200m per week" was about as bad as possible.
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
Says the financier who works for a swiss bank. Yet a provincial doctor from a comprehensive school is "elite".
He’s saying the leaders of the campaigns are elite isn’t he? Not you
They always are! leaders are by definition elite. Remain was led by public school educated financiers and journalists claiming to be the voice of Britain.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with mudisagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her send.
Her probleess. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Churchill, Blair, Disraeli, Attlee, Thatcher, Gladstone and Lloyd George all wrapped into one would still not have got Barnier to agree to no backstop for Ireland
None of them would have made that ludicrous "citizens of nowhere" Conference speech or laid down those obviously stupid red lines or triggered A50 so pointlessly early or called a calames, but she's still a fucking midget. Get rid of her. Try ANYONE else. It cannot get any worse. Literally.
It was not May who made undeliverable promises in the referendum the EU would never agree to for any sort of FTA, May backed Remain.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
If she 1 didn't believe in the Brexit promises she should have said so and refused the premiership, 2, if she did, she's totally fucked up
Looks to me like she wanted the mantle of the New Thatcher and didn't care if she lied about her Brexit beliefs to do it. Turns out the Brexit task is WAY beyond her skillset.
She's dreadful. Sadly she is surrounded by even more dreadful geeks. We're fucked.
She doesn’t think Brexit is a good idea, she doesn’t think limiting immigration is important. That’s why she’s making a mess of it.
Nah. Sean's right - she's making a mess of it because she's not very good. Her qualities (resilience, tenacity) are the very ones which, at this moment in time, are least helpful to the country.
I think we may well be fucked. It's an existential crisis looming. Unless a route to a sensible soft-Brexit or Brexit reversal can be found, the UK will no longer exist in 10 years time.
If she 1 didn't believe in the Brexit promises she should have said so and refused the premiership, 2, if she did, she's totally fucked up
Looks to me like she wanted the mantle of the New Thatcher and didn't care if she lied about her Brexit beliefs to do it. Turns out the Brexit task is WAY beyond her skillset.
She's dreadful. Sadly she is surrounded by even more dreadful geeks. We're fucked.
Difficult to argue with your last sentence.
But you did vote for this...
Nobody in their wildest dreams thought we'd end up with Theresa May as PM when they voted for Brexit.
There's only one reason why no deal wins out over remain. The party can wear no deal and blame it on the EU, lose in 2022 and let Labour deal with the mess, dump the leadership and come back in 2027. With remain we've got no one to blame and we're betraying our own voters, there's no way back for us with remain, not for at least three cycles.
If it was a remain backed by our party I'd be tempted to vote for Jez just to give our party the right royal kicking they would deserve. I'm certain I'm not alone with that sentiment.
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country.
While I agree with much of what you say, this part is simply and demonstrably untrue. She has spent far too long avoiding taking decisions due to worrying about her party and not what is best for the country, but it is impossible to square her actions of the past 4 months, which have led to increasingly severe disagreements within her party and much personal animosity focused on her specifically, with the charge that she is not, belatedly, trying to do what is best for the country. Too little too late, perhaps, but I think you overdo it on the critique there, it is simply not credible to explain May's actions for the better part of this year by suggesting she has not cared at all about what is best for this country. What, exactly, do you think her motivation has been picking a fight with a huge part of her own party? Fun? May is inadequate for the task at hand, and she is architect of plenty of her own troubles, but she has at least tried toward the end.
Her problems in the last few months are a direct consequence of the decisions she took in the months after she became PM and those were done in order to paint herself as some new Thatcher and more Brexity than the Brexiteers. She is reaping now what she sowed then. She may be trying her best but she has been quite incapable of moving outside the boundaries of her party. She is not a leader. She has picked these fights beause she combines a lack of leadership and imagination with stubborness. And such debate as there has been has only been with her party. What about the rest of us?
Yes, her absurd, hostile Conference speech and the red lines it contained have sowed the seeds of this disaster, It all starts there.
A subtler, silkier politician could have got the same rhapsodic ovation - Free, Free At Last! - without promising anything, and leaving lots of wiggle room.
She is autistic. She just is. We are led by the worst PM in decades at the one time when we needed the best, or something close.
Comments
It is a question of country or party. Better Remain or SM+CU and then a PM Corbyn then pick a Brexiteer as Leader of the Opposition than break up the country
If say at least 15 years before we get back into power, maybe even 20. Our voters would just desert us and vote for whatever populist movement sprung up from the 45-55% of the people who vote leave again.
In any case polling is quite clear a majority of voters are not prepared to accept No Deal Brexit, so permanently ending FOM does not conquer all if it trashes the economy and the Union
In any case in opposition we could easily pick a hardline Brexiteer having at least not destroyed the country in government
It'll be fine.
It'll be fine.
It may even work, but you've got to bear in mind that the other driver might have the same reasoning as you, and with far more justification. Which leads to torn metal, smashed fuel tanks dripping, and the mangled body of the hatchback driver.
Brexit Britain risks destabilising the EU
Nationalist Austria risks destabilising the EU
Undemocratic Poland risks destabilising the EU
The EU elections risk destabilising the EU
What is the constant, immovable, implacable (f)actor in all these destabilising scenarios?
Comment from the FT!
May has spent the last two and a half years worrying only about her party and not about what is best for the country. That is why we are in the mess we are in. It is long past the time for the government to think about the country. Not to proceed with a harmful course just so that you can avoid worrying about your membership (all 100,000 of them).
IF THE Tory party wants to have a breakdown over Europe let it but it should not drag the rest of us with it. If the Commons cannot decide then let us have the choice between a No Deal Brexit or Remain before that choice is taken away from us. I am heartily sick of watching the Tories argue amongst themselves when it is clear that those who wanted Brexit have not got the first fucking clue about how to go about it and, worse, are now revelling in their ignorance and taking an apres moi le deluge approach to the country’s interests. It’s pathetic.
And you claim that Corbyn hates his country. He may do but just listen to yourself - it’s all “party” this, that and the other. The country doesn’t get a look in. You’re no more patriotic than Corbyn, frankly.
(With apologies to the Dunny-on-the-Wold By-election episode of Blackadder III)
So now we're heading for a no deal, the Tory party is utterly discredited by allowing the second ref to go ahead and Corbyn is within touching distance of No 10.
Also, remember that I'm talking in the specific no deal vs remain scenario. I'm still fairly confident that no deal will be avoided and we'll end up with some kind of deal with the EU temporarily giving way on Ireland until some solution can be found. I don't think they were fully prepared for the resolve of the DUP and Tories on the border issue. For the former it is an existential threat and to the latter it speaks to the core of what the party stands for. May was stupid to agree to a backstop of any kind and we're seeing the consequences of that now.
https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/10/saudis-may-admit-khashoggi-died-in-botched-interrogation.html
See you on Saturday on the march
Other than McDonnell or Abbott, I think I have to agree.
Surely it's to deliver what its members consider to be the best way forward for the country. Or even, at the very least, to endeavour to deny another party the ability to do (what the first party considers to be) harm to the country.
Absent these and it's not a political party. It's a political parasite. And, if it does abandon this purpose, it totally deserves to die, in that case, having so mutated from its original purpose into merely a damaging tribe, sucking resources from its host and occupying a position that denies other parties space.
Now, why would anyone want to remain in that club?
I think either no deal or remain results in Corbyn winning. No deal probably results in a minority government for Jez but remain results in a huge Jez majority.
Johnson, Rees-Mogg, Farage, Rothermere, Murdoch, Bamford, Dyson, Dacre, Digby-Jones, Lawson and may other Leave supporters are as elitist as any on the Remain side.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=85dYshiw55Q
It really is quite easy for anyone to understand, apart from Leavers!
140/1
I don’t want no deal, but in the absence of the EU negotiating in good faith, we have no choice.
https://twitter.com/B37boy/status/1051945259230527490
"We're building a border that we don't want and we're going to make Ireland pay for it and they really don't want it"
Really?
Remain 2 campaign: "It isn't worth it' / 'Think of your job'
But ultimately the true impact of a No Deal Brexit will be impossible to ignore, and we'll be grovelling to the EU to take us back in in 5 years time.
Funny ole world.
https://twitter.com/NE4EU/status/1051778782510628864?s=19
The leaders of the remain and leave camps are as elitist as each other, yet there is enough truth in the people vs the elites campaign for it to work just as the other two referendum winning lines did.
The last two, shambolic years have been inflicted on us by a party that has put itself before the country. May’s red lines were put in place specifically to assuage the Buccaneers and get the Brexit press onside. She probably knows now how foolish she was, but it’s far, far too late.
I humbly put it to the committee that this is a factor.
Whoever became PM after Brexit took a hospital pass
This!!!! In spades.
"triggered A50 so pointlessly early"
Boris is Keith Chegwin who hit head and woke up thinking he was Churchill.
At this moment I think TM still stands, the mutineers seem impotent, and the Country is in uproar with itself.
People say anyone is better than TM but no one wants it, other than Corbyn who is just a protest leader
I am not fighting anymore, just watching, listening, and hoping a way will be found out of the maze
And before I bid everyone a good nights rest, just think on that maybe the ordinary voter sees TM as the only one in the room who is grown up and has the best chance of achieving a deal
Good night folks
But you did vote for this...
Thus the whole 'Elites versus the People' meme is total bullshit, fake news, spin.
It's clever, but it doesn't make it acceptable.
GET IN RAHIM I NEVER DOUBTED YOU UNLIKE SOME TRAITORS ON HERE.
Ahem.
I think we may well be fucked. It's an existential crisis looming. Unless a route to a sensible soft-Brexit or Brexit reversal can be found, the UK will no longer exist in 10 years time.