To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Wow. Fair play.
For what it’s worth I think WTO can work, but it requires a lot of work and a lot of legislation - and if the EU keep up the intransigence probably also a fair amount of international arbitration to keep planes and trucks moving.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
Indeed even the Tories are coming round to the idea. @ Williamglenn may yet prove to be tipster of the year.
The only result of a second referendum is chaos. The result of the original EU referendum has to be delivered. It's the reason you do refernda. Cameron was a complete fool to launch a referendum that couldn't be delivered upon immediately.
I disagree with all sorts of political thoughts. If you differ then good for you. A second referendum is about political process. I don't think there is any 'good for you' about such a thing. It's just treason.
I do think the Irish have played a blinder in Brussels lobbying - but if it does go no deal they will be hit almost as badly as the U.K. with fewer remedies at their n mmm. And the view that this Brussels support will not come with a price tag is naive.
Step back from the specifics of the border issue for a moment. Imagine the UK reached out to Ireland and they sorted a mutually acceptable position. The Irish could then take it back to member states and say, we really want this. Were affected more than anyone else. That would be a powerful voice in the EU. Instead ...
"Who do you think you are, playing games with your stupid border? Wait until your tinpot country, which is British really, disappears into the dust."
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
Isn’t it obvious now that it’s no deal. Time to hunker down.
No it is not, it will likely still be stay in the single market and customs union in all but name in the transition period and withdrawal agreement and a FTA to be negotiated in the transition
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
I’m looking looking forward to you explaining more about launch investment given you clearly don’t have a clue about government vetoes.
Woo-hoo been away from things for a while. Can she really not have okayed Chequers with the EU? That would have been monumentally stupid. Please say it is not so.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
Big G you certainly have been on a roller coaster of emotions. It is precisely to avoid the problems you face that you should come to see Leavers as the traitors.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
No it isn't. It's part of a political debate that is taking place across Europe and relates to defending the role of the EU in the 21st century. If he wants to call out someone like Boris Johnson as a liar in that context he's perfectly entitled to.
I do think the Irish have played a blinder in Brussels lobbying - but if it does go no deal they will be hit almost as badly as the U.K. with fewer remedies at their n mmm. And the view that this Brussels support will not come with a price tag is naive.
Step back from the specifics of the border issue for a moment. Imagine the UK reached out to Ireland and they sorted a mutually acceptable position. The Irish could then take it back to member states and say, we really want this. Were affected more than anyone else. That would be a powerful voice in the EU. Instead ...
"Who do you think you are, playing games with your stupid border? Wait until your tinpot country, which is British really, disappears into the dust."
No-one will respect that.
Citation required.
The British and Irish started work on border cooperation and Varadkar cancelled it. And that’s Britain’s fault?
This seems to be case of the member states pushing the EU Commission and Council to be more hardline, while the professionals want to keep it calmer. So much for going over the heads of Barnier at al. Theresa May possibly seeing the consequence of supporting a Hungarian despot against the powerful liberal states..
I do think the Irish have played a blinder in Brussels lobbying - but if it does go no deal they will be hit almost as badly as the U.K. with fewer remedies at their n mmm. And the view that this Brussels support will not come with a price tag is naive.
Step back from the specifics of the border issue for a moment. Imagine the UK reached out to Ireland and they sorted a mutually acceptable position. The Irish could then take it back to member states and say, we really want this. Were affected more than anyone else. That would be a powerful voice in the EU. Instead ...
"Who do you think you are, playing games with your stupid border? Wait until your tinpot country, which is British really, disappears into the dust."
No-one will respect that.
Citation required.
The British and Irish started work on border cooperation and Varadkar cancelled it. And that’s Britain’s fault?
Citation required.
Ireland's policy hasn't materially changed throughout Brexit and has always been driven by the need to avoid a hard border.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Davis stands down next year and Tories elect a new leader to take them though to 2022.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
Big G you certainly have been on a roller coaster of emotions. It is precisely to avoid the problems you face that you should come to see Leavers as the traitors.
The problem with that is no one gets anywhere by calling one side traitors.
The lack of respect and belittling of our PM today by the EU just confirms they are an organisation I want nothing to do with
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
No it isn't. It's part of a political debate that is taking place across Europe and relates to defending the role of the EU in the 21st century. If he wants to call out someone like Boris Johnson as a liar in that context he's perfectly entitled to.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Davis stands down next year and Tories elect a new leader to take them though to 2022.
You really shouldn't post on PB when you're drunk/high.
"Absentee ballots" counted in Florida show 2point lead to the Dems 41-39 and in North Carolina a massive 21pt lead 45-24.These indicate a pretty big swing from GOP to Dem and with Willie Nelson,aka God,supporting Beta O'Rourke in Texas,Ted Cruz looks to be toast.
Willie has even written a new song he plans to play at the O’Rourke rally, called ‘Vote ‘Em Out.'” He starts singing: “If you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out / that’s what Election Day is all about / the biggest gun we’ve got is called the ballot box / if you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out.”
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
Big G you certainly have been on a roller coaster of emotions. It is precisely to avoid the problems you face that you should come to see Leavers as the traitors.
The problem with that is no one gets anywhere by calling one side traitors.
The lack of respect and belittling of our PM today by the EU just confirms they are an organisation I want nothing to do with
They are negotiating, Big G, that's the game we're in right now.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Davis stands down next year and Tories elect a new leader to take them though to 2022.
You really shouldn't post on PB when you're drunk/high.
If you enforced that rule strictly @SeanT would be in a spot of bother.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
Truth hurts, Mr G. Macron's comments were accurate IMO.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
Big G you certainly have been on a roller coaster of emotions. It is precisely to avoid the problems you face that you should come to see Leavers as the traitors.
The problem with that is no one gets anywhere by calling one side traitors.
The lack of respect and belittling of our PM today by the EU just confirms they are an organisation I want nothing to do with
The French President isn't "the EU", and you don't get to avoid national embarrassment by leaving the EU.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Davis stands down next year and Tories elect a new leader to take them though to 2022.
That is not going to happen and by suggesting it you do not know how it works. I would suggest TM could do it for them and she would win by some distance.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Davis stands down next year and Tories elect a new leader to take them though to 2022.
LOL! David Davis is a clown man!
My sarcasm meter is not working - is this for real or a piss take? Help!
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Better than a continual guessing game of if enough Mps will back a deal that has already been rejected. I don't like the way he's acted or the thrust of his factions proposals, but even if not him someone needs to act.
The government's strategy has categorically failed. Other strategies might well be too late or fail too, but it's clearly time to try something different if they want to avoid a GE or referendum. There's no benefit in working more to water down a proposal already stated to be as close to pure water as the gov could go. There's no benefit to saying Davis and cos plan are nonsense when the EU is saying the same of the government offer.
I'd back May as at least trying to be grown up and get a deal which can pass the commons and the EU. And it may be no one else can manage it either. But she clearly cannot do it.
Time for May to go and someone else to try, and if that doesn't work, as it likely wont with so little time, a crunch point will come on no deal or remain .
But first step it's time for May to go. She tried and failed.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
I’m looking looking forward to you explaining more about launch investment given you clearly don’t have a clue about government vetoes.
I know you work in the aviation regulatory sector, I should have added that the launch funds are recoverable on sales. On the point of the rumoured Government veto on the manufacturing process do you have any other information that can enlighten the rumours?
I see some of the Conservative supporters are getting their knickers in a knot, stamping their feet and being nasty to the EU.
All pathetically predictable - what did you expect, that Macron, Merkel, Barnier and the rest were going to sign up to Chequers and throw rose petals on the ground in front of the Blessed Theresa?
It's the usual old nonsense - it's never our fault, it's always the "nasty perfidious Europeans" to blame and that's clearly going to be "the line" as an attempt to hold the Conservative vote together by wrapping the Union Jack ("our precious union") ever more tightly round.
Nick P is probably right - there's a dance going on and everyone has to dance their steps. As usual, the British have gone into a European negotiation assuming shouting a lot and promising to "scweam and scweam until I'm sick" will get us what we want. We will be forced to make concessions but we were always going to and it's how the Prime Minister sells the concessions that will be revealing.
It would be nice for May to come out and admit the Government hasn't done the work, hasn't thought through the A50 process and recognises we won't get what we want. HYUFD may well be right (there's a first time for everything) in that we end up with BINO in which we stay in the CU and possibly the SM for goods and get some platitudes on Freedom of Movement.
That would be in the national interest - whether it's in the Conservative Party's interest is of course immaterial.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
Truth hurts, Mr G. Macron's comments were accurate IMO.
Maybe but entirely inappropriate. Do not forget I have consistently attacked Boris, but I do not expect it from the leader of another Country
"Absentee ballots" counted in Florida show 2point lead to the Dems 41-39 and in North Carolina a massive 21pt lead 45-24.These indicate a pretty big swing from GOP to Dem and with Willie Nelson,aka God,supporting Beta O'Rourke in Texas,Ted Cruz looks to be toast.
Willie has even written a new song he plans to play at the O’Rourke rally, called ‘Vote ‘Em Out.'” He starts singing: “If you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out / that’s what Election Day is all about / the biggest gun we’ve got is called the ballot box / if you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out.”
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the "early voting" in 2016 supposedly indicate Trump was headed for a huge defeat....
Technical glitch earlier. The path to no deal is clear. Any other route takes a fundamental change from one party or another. A change for which there is no sign whatsoever today.
We can look forwards a few months, possibly a year, but not with certainty. We may look at Cameron with opprobrium, or we may thank him. Events may show that the EU is a political project that can only hold itself together with threats and force, or it may become glued together by love and loyalty. I can guess, but I don't know, and nor do any of you.
"Absentee ballots" counted in Florida show 2point lead to the Dems 41-39 and in North Carolina a massive 21pt lead 45-24.These indicate a pretty big swing from GOP to Dem and with Willie Nelson,aka God,supporting Beta O'Rourke in Texas,Ted Cruz looks to be toast.
Willie has even written a new song he plans to play at the O’Rourke rally, called ‘Vote ‘Em Out.'” He starts singing: “If you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out / that’s what Election Day is all about / the biggest gun we’ve got is called the ballot box / if you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out.”
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the "early voting" in 2016 supposedly indicate Trump was headed for a huge defeat....
I don't recall that, I have to say. In fact, the early suggestions from Virginia were as I recall a sign it was much closer than expected.
Technical glitch earlier. The path to no deal is clear. Any other route takes a fundamental change from one party or another. A change for which there is no sign whatsoever today.
I expect a change at some point, probably from Labour, but as much as most mps do not seem to want it deep down, as you point out the path to that outcome is at least clear, And therefore easier.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
Yes, but the truth hurts.
We knew Chequers was not something that the EU would agree, right back in July. Why did she squander another 2 months on it?
Overall, May seems a pretty pisspoor negotiator, probably due to her lack of people skills.
We can look forwards a few months, possibly a year, but not with certainty. We may look at Cameron with opprobrium, or we may thank him. Events may show that the EU is a political project that can only hold itself together with threats and force, or it may become glued together by love and loyalty. I can guess, but I don't know, and nor do any of you.
I don't think accidentally destroying the EU would help improve David Cameron's CV.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Davis stands down next year and Tories elect a new leader to take them though to 2022.
I'd prefer Corbyn than David Davis. I'd prefer Attila the Hun too. David Davis is no part of any solution to crossing the road, let alone Brexit.
Labour need to immediately appoint Abbot. She'll give the solid foundation that Lammy needs. In just a few months McDonnel's economic policies will be put before the World Bank. It's pretty clear that every mind in the room will align with this totally discredited view. McDonnel will borrow 4 trillion pounds. UNITE will form a committee as to how to make the best use of their 2bn share. Cakes all round, and 12% payrises linked to inflation or any number that might be greater, 51 weeks of holiday per year, with an additional dispensation to ex-mining families. What hasn't gone away though is class struggle - It is absolutely unfair that even under the new scheme there are people working over an hour a day and that their children can't expect to be gifted lordships.
Technical glitch earlier. The path to no deal is clear. Any other route takes a fundamental change from one party or another. A change for which there is no sign whatsoever today.
The problem is we don't want to admit we made an error with Brexit due to listening to dim witted demagogues, but the EU can't admit it's an error caused by their own corruption, complacency and incompetence.
Both sides are going to royally fuck up because they are too proud to admit their failures.
Technical glitch earlier. The path to no deal is clear. Any other route takes a fundamental change from one party or another. A change for which there is no sign whatsoever today.
I expect a change at some point, probably from Labour, but as much as most mps do not seem to want it deep down, as you point out the path to that outcome is at least clear, And therefore easier.
So what if Labour change? Tories or the EU need to change to create another option.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Better than a continual guessing game of if enough Mps will back a deal that has already been rejected. I don't like the way he's acted or the thrust of his factions proposals, but even if not him someone needs to act.
The government's strategy has categorically failed. Other strategies might well be too late or fail too, but it's clearly time to try something different if they want to avoid a GE or referendum. There's no benefit in working more to water down a proposal already stated to be as close to pure water as the gov could go. There's no benefit to saying Davis and cos plan are nonsense when the EU is saying the same of the government offer.
I'd back May as at least trying to be grown up and get a deal which can pass the commons and the EU. And it may be no one else can manage it either. But she clearly cannot do it.
Time for May to go and someone else to try, and if that doesn't work, as it likely wont with so little time, a crunch point will come on no deal or remain .
But first step it's time for May to go. She tried and failed.
Yep.
Davis said the EU wouldn't accept Chequers. He was right, May and Robbins were wrong.
Davis was preparing to unveil his plan at Chequers which was based on the offer the EU made months and months ago. May and Robbins ambushed him.
Time for May to say she and her plan have failed and hand over to the person who's plan she rejected.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
Yes, but the truth hurts.
We knew Chequers was not something that the EU would agree, right back in July. Why did she squander another 2 months on it?
Overall, May seems a pretty pisspoor negotiator, probably due to her lack of people skills.
I think actually it's simple. She knew she couldn't get more past Parliament without Corbyn's help, which would not be forthcoming. So she had to try it.
It was still obvious the EU would reject it, as they have rejected everything bar Norway or no deal, but she had to be seen to be trying it.
I do think the Irish have played a blinder in Brussels lobbying - but if it does go no deal they will be hit almost as badly as the U.K. with fewer remedies at their n mmm. And the view that this Brussels support will not come with a price tag is naive.
Step back from the specifics of the border issue for a moment. Imagine the UK reached out to Ireland and they sorted a mutually acceptable position. The Irish could then take it back to member states and say, we really want this. Were affected more than anyone else. That would be a powerful voice in the EU. Instead ...
"Who do you think you are, playing games with your stupid border? Wait until your tinpot country, which is British really, disappears into the dust."
No-one will respect that.
Citation required.
The British and Irish started work on border cooperation and Varadkar cancelled it. And that’s Britain’s fault?
Citation required.
Ireland's policy hasn't materially changed throughout Brexit and has always been driven by the need to avoid a hard border.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
Yes, but the truth hurts.
We knew Chequers was not something that the EU would agree, right back in July. Why did she squander another 2 months on it?
Overall, May seems a pretty pisspoor negotiator, probably due to her lack of people skills.
For the EUs reaction to be a surprise and May to be embarrassed like this, there must have been a failure of diplomacy. Whitehall is not working or no10 is in the bunker. That’s worrying.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Better than a continual guessing game of if enough Mps will back a deal that has already been rejected. I don't like the way he's acted or the thrust of his factions proposals, but even if not him someone needs to act.
The government's strategy has categorically failed. Other strategies might well be too late or fail too, but it's clearly time to try something different if they want to avoid a GE or referendum. There's no benefit in working more to water down a proposal already stated to be as close to pure water as the gov could go. There's no benefit to saying Davis and cos plan are nonsense when the EU is saying the same of the government offer.
I'd back May as at least trying to be grown up and get a deal which can pass the commons and the EU. And it may be no one else can manage it either. But she clearly cannot do it.
Time for May to go and someone else to try, and if that doesn't work, as it likely wont with so little time, a crunch point will come on no deal or remain .
But first step it's time for May to go. She tried and failed.
Yep.
Davis said the EU wouldn't accept Chequers. He was right, May and Robbins were wrong.
Davis was preparing to unveil his plan at Chequers which was based on the offer the EU made months and months ago. May and Robbins ambushed him.
Time for May to say she and her plan have failed and hand over to the person who's plan she rejected.
Not going to happen.
If you think I am wrong can you detail the mechanics for David Davis to take over and the time it would take.
Please make your argument based on possibility, not some vague wish
Technical glitch earlier. The path to no deal is clear. Any other route takes a fundamental change from one party or another. A change for which there is no sign whatsoever today.
I expect a change at some point, probably from Labour, but as much as most mps do not seem to want it deep down, as you point out the path to that outcome is at least clear, And therefore easier.
So what if Labour change? Tories or the EU need to change to create another option.
I agree, that's why I think no deal still happens - I don't rule out the Tories or eu changing radically, but the latter are playing hardball and clearly don't see the need, and the former are not united enough to do so.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
Truth hurts, Mr G. Macron's comments were accurate IMO.
Maybe but entirely inappropriate. Do not forget I have consistently attacked Boris, but I do not expect it from the leader of another Country
Boris is a muppet, but he's our muppet. Doesn't mean that he won't end up as Prime Minister mind you.
Based on Raab and May both trying to put pressure on Labour to rule out a second referendum, I think their plan, if today had been uneventful, was to hope Labour's conference would lead to a change of position so they could blame Labour for the EU refusing to support Chequers.
I do think the Irish have played a blinder in Brussels lobbying - but if it does go no deal they will be hit almost as badly as the U.K. with fewer remedies at their n mmm. And the view that this Brussels support will not come with a price tag is naive.
Step back from the specifics of the border issue for a moment. Imagine the UK reached out to Ireland and they sorted a mutually acceptable position. The Irish could then take it back to member states and say, we really want this. Were affected more than anyone else. That would be a powerful voice in the EU. Instead ...
"Who do you think you are, playing games with your stupid border? Wait until your tinpot country, which is British really, disappears into the dust."
No-one will respect that.
Citation required.
The British and Irish started work on border cooperation and Varadkar cancelled it. And that’s Britain’s fault?
Of course it's Britain's fault. Win some, lose some is a concept in sales. Lose them all and blame the customer isn't. No-one important in Ireland disagrees with Varadkar. In fact the UK makes it clear it doesn't think any Irish are important.
How might you deal with this ? You could say at the outset, the border issue is important. Nothing should get in the way of the GFA. Let's ask the Anglo Irish Council ( or whatever it's called now ) to investigate and come back with solutions. If nothing else it buys time.
I see some of the Conservative supporters are getting their knickers in a knot, stamping their feet and being nasty to the EU.
All pathetically predictable - what did you expect, that Macron, Merkel, Barnier and the rest were going to sign up to Chequers and throw rose petals on the ground in front of the Blessed Theresa?
It's the usual old nonsense - it's never our fault, it's always the "nasty perfidious Europeans" to blame and that's clearly going to be "the line" as an attempt to hold the Conservative vote together by wrapping the Union Jack ("our precious union") ever more tightly round.
Nick P is probably right - there's a dance going on and everyone has to dance their steps. As usual, the British have gone into a European negotiation assuming shouting a lot and promising to "scweam and scweam until I'm sick" will get us what we want. We will be forced to make concessions but we were always going to and it's how the Prime Minister sells the concessions that will be revealing.
It would be nice for May to come out and admit the Government hasn't done the work, hasn't thought through the A50 process and recognises we won't get what we want. HYUFD may well be right (there's a first time for everything) in that we end up with BINO in which we stay in the CU and possibly the SM for goods and get some platitudes on Freedom of Movement.
That would be in the national interest - whether it's in the Conservative Party's interest is of course immaterial.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
Big G you certainly have been on a roller coaster of emotions. It is precisely to avoid the problems you face that you should come to see Leavers as the traitors.
The problem with that is no one gets anywhere by calling one side traitors.
The lack of respect and belittling of our PM today by the EU just confirms they are an organisation I want nothing to do with
The French President isn't "the EU", and you don't get to avoid national embarrassment by leaving the EU.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Better than a continual guessing game of if enough Mps will back a deal that has already been rejected. I don't like the way he's acted or the thrust of his factions proposals, but even if not him someone needs to act.
The government's strategy has categorically failed. Other strategies might well be too late or fail too, but it's clearly time to try something different if they want to avoid a GE or referendum. There's no benefit in working more to water down a proposal already stated to be as close to pure water as the gov could go. There's no benefit to saying Davis and cos plan are nonsense when the EU is saying the same of the government offer.
I'd back May as at least trying to be grown up and get a deal which can pass the commons and the EU. And it may be no one else can manage it either. But she clearly cannot do it.
Time for May to go and someone else to try, and if that doesn't work, as it likely wont with so little time, a crunch point will come on no deal or remain .
But first step it's time for May to go. She tried and failed.
Yep.
Davis said the EU wouldn't accept Chequers. He was right, May and Robbins were wrong.
Davis was preparing to unveil his plan at Chequers which was based on the offer the EU made months and months ago. May and Robbins ambushed him.
Time for May to say she and her plan have failed and hand over to the person who's plan she rejected.
Not going to happen.
If you think I am wrong can you detail the mechanics for David Davis to take over and the time it would take.
Please make your argument based on possibility, not some vague wish
I do think the Irish have played a blinder in Brussels lobbying - but if it does go no deal they will be hit almost as badly as the U.K. with fewer remedies at their n mmm. And the view that this Brussels support will not come with a price tag is naive.
Step back from the specifics of the border issue for a moment. Imagine the UK reached out to Ireland and they sorted a mutually acceptable position. The Irish could then take it back to member states and say, we really want this. Were affected more than anyone else. That would be a powerful voice in the EU. Instead ...
"Who do you think you are, playing games with your stupid border? Wait until your tinpot country, which is British really, disappears into the dust."
No-one will respect that.
Citation required.
The British and Irish started work on border cooperation and Varadkar cancelled it. And that’s Britain’s fault?
Citation required.
Ireland's policy hasn't materially changed throughout Brexit and has always been driven by the need to avoid a hard border.
Only one month after the referendum, a quote like "I think these are things that need to be looked at creatively. But we are both agreed very firmly that there will be no return to a hard border" does not back up the idea that he was dead set on a technological solution. It was looked at, and determined that it wasn't a viable solution.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
Truth hurts, Mr G. Macron's comments were accurate IMO.
Maybe but entirely inappropriate. Do not forget I have consistently attacked Boris, but I do not expect it from the leader of another Country
Boris is a muppet, but he's our muppet. Doesn't mean that he won't end up as Prime Minister mind you.
Two people might persuade me to vote for an apologist for Nazism, Communism, terrorism and actually worse.*
One is Gove.
The other is Johnson.
They are both even more dangerous to Britain than Corbyn is.
*That's a reference to Corbyn, in case anyone is in doubt.
I think mrstodge is a bit hard on May - she has recognised we don't get a lot of what we want; and angered a lot of her party in doing so. Boiling it down to a game of us screaming and not thinking at all is oddly simplistic and I would say unreasonable of him.
The other day I suggested that normal EU negotiating procedure included a Crisis phase and then a Total Collapse of Talks phase, followed by a Last Desperate Effort phase, and finally a fudge. I think we're doing the first, and we will still end up with a deal.
Agreed. But there is a real risk of the long term relationship being notably cooler and more distant than it might have been.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
Big G you certainly have been on a roller coaster of emotions. It is precisely to avoid the problems you face that you should come to see Leavers as the traitors.
The problem with that is no one gets anywhere by calling one side traitors.
The lack of respect and belittling of our PM today by the EU just confirms they are an organisation I want nothing to do with
The French President isn't "the EU", and you don't get to avoid national embarrassment by leaving the EU.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
Truth hurts, Mr G. Macron's comments were accurate IMO.
Maybe but entirely inappropriate. Do not forget I have consistently attacked Boris, but I do not expect it from the leader of another Country
Boris is a muppet, but he's our muppet. Doesn't mean that he won't end up as Prime Minister mind you.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Better than a continual guessing game of if enough Mps will back a deal that has already been rejected. I don't like the way he's acted or the thrust of his factions proposals, but even if not him someone needs to act.
The government's strategy has categorically failed. Other strategies might well be too late or fail too, but it's clearly time to try something different if they want to avoid a GE or referendum. There's no benefit in working more to water down a proposal already stated to be as close to pure water as the gov could go. There's no benefit to saying Davis and cos plan are nonsense when the EU is saying the same of the government offer.
I'd back May as at least trying to be grown up and get a deal which can pass the commons and the EU. And it may be no one else can manage it either. But she clearly cannot do it.
Time for May to go and someone else to try, and if that doesn't work, as it likely wont with so little time, a crunch point will come on no deal or remain .
But first step it's time for May to go. She tried and failed.
Yep.
Davis said the EU wouldn't accept Chequers. He was right, May and Robbins were wrong.
Davis was preparing to unveil his plan at Chequers which was based on the offer the EU made months and months ago. May and Robbins ambushed him.
Time for May to say she and her plan have failed and hand over to the person who's plan she rejected.
Did the EU really offer a Canada Stlye deal months ago? Presumably if they did the issue was the border in the North Sea and that was why May rejected it?
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Better than a continual guessing game of if enough Mps will back a deal that has already been rejected. I don't like the way he's acted or the thrust of his factions proposals, but even if not him someone needs to act.
The government's strategy has categorically failed. Other strategies might well be too late or fail too, but it's clearly time to try something different if they want to avoid a GE or referendum. There's no benefit in working more to water down a proposal already stated to be as close to pure water as the gov could go. There's no benefit to saying Davis and cos plan are nonsense when the EU is saying the same of the government offer.
I'd back May as at least trying to be grown up and get a deal which can pass the commons and the EU. And it may be no one else can manage it either. But she clearly cannot do it.
Time for May to go and someone else to try, and if that doesn't work, as it likely wont with so little time, a crunch point will come on no deal or remain .
But first step it's time for May to go. She tried and failed.
Yep.
Davis said the EU wouldn't accept Chequers. He was right, May and Robbins were wrong.
Davis was preparing to unveil his plan at Chequers which was based on the offer the EU made months and months ago. May and Robbins ambushed him.
Time for May to say she and her plan have failed and hand over to the person who's plan she rejected.
Not going to happen.
If you think I am wrong can you detail the mechanics for David Davis to take over and the time it would take.
Please make your argument based on possibility, not some vague wish
Where there's a will there's a way Big G.
That is just not an answer. Please tell me how it comes about, I really am interested in your explanation
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
Yes, but the truth hurts.
We knew Chequers was not something that the EU would agree, right back in July. Why did she squander another 2 months on it?
Overall, May seems a pretty pisspoor negotiator, probably due to her lack of people skills.
For the EUs reaction to be a surprise and May to be embarrassed like this, there must have been a failure of diplomacy. Whitehall is not working or no10 is in the bunker. That’s worrying.
There has been a failure of diplomacy. The EU's comprehensive rejection of May's proposals today seems inconsistent with some of the recent public (never mind private) comments that EU leaders have made about the plan's potential. The EU seem disingenuous in the way they are negotiating and that may well harden anti EU feeling including amongst some remainers and undecideds.
Technical glitch earlier. The path to no deal is clear. Any other route takes a fundamental change from one party or another. A change for which there is no sign whatsoever today.
The problem is we don't want to admit we made an error with Brexit due to listening to dim witted demagogues,
Well then, the demagogues will win. It has always been quite clear that, like any club, you are either IN or OUT.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
Big G you certainly have been on a roller coaster of emotions. It is precisely to avoid the problems you face that you should come to see Leavers as the traitors.
The problem with that is no one gets anywhere by calling one side traitors.
The lack of respect and belittling of our PM today by the EU just confirms they are an organisation I want nothing to do with
The French President isn't "the EU", and you don't get to avoid national embarrassment by leaving the EU.
So it’s not a club, it’s a prison.
"There is no planet B", as Macron also said.
But there may the the A Ark, the B Ark and the C Ark.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
Yes, but the truth hurts.
We knew Chequers was not something that the EU would agree, right back in July. Why did she squander another 2 months on it?
Overall, May seems a pretty pisspoor negotiator, probably due to her lack of people skills.
For the EUs reaction to be a surprise and May to be embarrassed like this, there must have been a failure of diplomacy. Whitehall is not working or no10 is in the bunker. That’s worrying.
There has been a failure of diplomacy. The EU's comprehensive rejection of May's proposals today seems inconsistent with some of the recent public (never mind private) comments that EU leaders have made about the plan's potential. The EU seem disingenuous in the way they are negotiating and that may well harden anti EU feeling including amongst some remainers and undecideds.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
Truth hurts, Mr G. Macron's comments were accurate IMO.
Maybe but entirely inappropriate. Do not forget I have consistently attacked Boris, but I do not expect it from the leader of another Country
Boris is a muppet, but he's our muppet. Doesn't mean that he won't end up as Prime Minister mind you.
Rather hope not.
I hope not too, but he might as Well be given a chance to see if he can get a deal - until it is cleAR they cannot get one even close to what they want other options like a referendum or remain will not open up as possibilities, and only no dealers want that. Which is fine for them to believe but we need to get some outcome and with Chequers at last officially dead other options need to be eliminated one by one .
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Your son works at Airbus I believe. Why Airbus will not leave on day one, but long term the Govt needs to nurture them. We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds. The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems. It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
My son in law is a senior engineer flying to meetings all over Europe. It will not effect him short term but the jobs are high skill high pay and essential to the North Wales economy.
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
Big G you certainly have been on a roller coaster of emotions. It is precisely to avoid the problems you face that you should come to see Leavers as the traitors.
The problem with that is no one gets anywhere by calling one side traitors.
The lack of respect and belittling of our PM today by the EU just confirms they are an organisation I want nothing to do with
The French President isn't "the EU", and you don't get to avoid national embarrassment by leaving the EU.
So they're allowed to be petty snowflakes who get annoyed at aggressive articles but we aren't?
Very much still seems neither side understands the other, which justifies further the leave case. If they're attempt to De dramatise still crossed a red line of ours why would we have to be kind about that? You have rightly defended their right to be blunt in defending their red lines.
Way forward - Tories need to send the letters in to 1922 tomorrow, May needs to stand down straight the way.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Davis stands down next year and Tories elect a new leader to take them though to 2022.
I hope you have a long and rewarding life for many many years to come.
But when that sad day does finally arrive please ensure that you have asked for your brain to be donated to science because humanity really needs to know what is going on in there and learn from it.
"Absentee ballots" counted in Florida show 2point lead to the Dems 41-39 and in North Carolina a massive 21pt lead 45-24.These indicate a pretty big swing from GOP to Dem and with Willie Nelson,aka God,supporting Beta O'Rourke in Texas,Ted Cruz looks to be toast.
Willie has even written a new song he plans to play at the O’Rourke rally, called ‘Vote ‘Em Out.'” He starts singing: “If you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out / that’s what Election Day is all about / the biggest gun we’ve got is called the ballot box / if you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out.”
Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't the "early voting" in 2016 supposedly indicate Trump was headed for a huge defeat....
I don't recall that, I have to say. In fact, the early suggestions from Virginia were as I recall a sign it was much closer than expected.
The early returns on the night were quite positive for Trump, but I thought people analysing the pre-Election Day voting were claiming the Democrats were ahead of where they were at the same time in the 2012 early voting. In particular, I remember regular reports from some Nevada elections expert.
It is their fault that we want the benefits of being in whilst being out?
It was NEVER going to work.
No.
But it is their fault that the very real advantages have been outweighed, however unfairly, in the public mind (and not just here) by the very significant negatives.
I still think if they had had the sense to lock Juncker up in an inebriates' home instead of making him President of the Commission on the recommendation of the EPP we would have voted in.
Look at it with a cold eye and that's where we are. We want free trade but none of the political crap that comes with it.
The problem - and what ultimately tipped me to remain - is that we cannot have one without another, and we needed to be in to keep the crap to a minimum.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
Truth hurts, Mr G. Macron's comments were accurate IMO.
Maybe but entirely inappropriate. Do not forget I have consistently attacked Boris, but I do not expect it from the leader of another Country
Boris is a muppet, but he's our muppet. Doesn't mean that he won't end up as Prime Minister mind you.
Agreed he still could become PM.
I am sure he has been watching , The Darkest Hour in preparation for the nation to require his inspirational leadership.
The French President isn't "the EU", and you don't get to avoid national embarrassment by leaving the EU.
So it’s not a club, it’s a prison.
"There is no planet B", as Macron also said.
Whatever that means?
He said it in the context of the environment in his speech to Congress, but it applies to politics too. You can't move to a different world and escape the rest of humanity.
The other day I suggested that normal EU negotiating procedure included a Crisis phase and then a Total Collapse of Talks phase, followed by a Last Desperate Effort phase, and finally a fudge. I think we're doing the first, and we will still end up with a deal.
The EU has not negotiated with a split Tory party before. Like trying to come to agreement with a schizophrenic, drunk with a knife to its neck. Clever, clever negotiation tactics are risky.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
Yes, but the truth hurts.
We knew Chequers was not something that the EU would agree, right back in July. Why did she squander another 2 months on it?
Overall, May seems a pretty pisspoor negotiator, probably due to her lack of people skills.
For the EUs reaction to be a surprise and May to be embarrassed like this, there must have been a failure of diplomacy. Whitehall is not working or no10 is in the bunker. That’s worrying.
It's not the FCO, but rather Number 10's insistence on getting rid of voices other than Yes men.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
What is wrong with what Macron said? It's true.
It is direct interference in UK politics and wholly unacceptable
Truth hurts, Mr G. Macron's comments were accurate IMO.
Maybe but entirely inappropriate. Do not forget I have consistently attacked Boris, but I do not expect it from the leader of another Country
Boris is a muppet, but he's our muppet. Doesn't mean that he won't end up as Prime Minister mind you.
Comments
For what it’s worth I think WTO can work, but it requires a lot of work and a lot of legislation - and if the EU keep up the intransigence probably also a fair amount of international arbitration to keep planes and trucks moving.
We are very good at providing seed funds for new models with out questioning them, 450million for the A350 alone. The govt buys lots of airbus kit, we are only one of two EU countries that spend 20% of the defence budget on kit. No other EU government will take up those lost kit sales and start up funds.
The tariffs on components are low and submitting customs declarations are not that onerous especially with computer systems.
It has always been said that the Government has a veto on the access to the advanced manufacturing process to make the carbon fibre components i.e Airbus if you move the wing production we make the components for Boeing instead (remember the Dreamliner wings falling off).
I disagree with all sorts of political thoughts. If you differ then good for you. A second referendum is about political process. I don't think there is any 'good for you' about such a thing. It's just treason.
"Who do you think you are, playing games with your stupid border? Wait until your tinpot country, which is British really, disappears into the dust."
No-one will respect that.
This is just the bluster before the deal, right?
However, the EU today crossed the rubicon for me today and out it is, unless TM does a deal
I guess maybe we do have a 'beautiful state'.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-45590963
The British and Irish started work on border cooperation and Varadkar cancelled it. And that’s Britain’s fault?
Ireland's policy hasn't materially changed throughout Brexit and has always been driven by the need to avoid a hard border.
The Tories should rally round David Davis as interim leader no later than the Tory conference - Davis presses on with the Canada style deal he'd been working on (and the EU offered) months ago.
Davis stands down next year and Tories elect a new leader to take them though to 2022.
The lack of respect and belittling of our PM today by the EU just confirms they are an organisation I want nothing to do with
David Davis?
good lyrics... might have posted before....
Willie has even written a new song he plans to play at the O’Rourke rally, called ‘Vote ‘Em Out.'” He starts singing: “If you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out / that’s what Election Day is all about / the biggest gun we’ve got is called the ballot box / if you don’t like who’s in there, vote ’em out.”
My sarcasm meter is not working - is this for real or a piss take? Help!
The government's strategy has categorically failed. Other strategies might well be too late or fail too, but it's clearly time to try something different if they want to avoid a GE or referendum. There's no benefit in working more to water down a proposal already stated to be as close to pure water as the gov could go. There's no benefit to saying Davis and cos plan are nonsense when the EU is saying the same of the government offer.
I'd back May as at least trying to be grown up and get a deal which can pass the commons and the EU. And it may be no one else can manage it either. But she clearly cannot do it.
Time for May to go and someone else to try, and if that doesn't work, as it likely wont with so little time, a crunch point will come on no deal or remain .
But first step it's time for May to go. She tried and failed.
On the point of the rumoured Government veto on the manufacturing process do you have any other information that can enlighten the rumours?
I see some of the Conservative supporters are getting their knickers in a knot, stamping their feet and being nasty to the EU.
All pathetically predictable - what did you expect, that Macron, Merkel, Barnier and the rest were going to sign up to Chequers and throw rose petals on the ground in front of the Blessed Theresa?
It's the usual old nonsense - it's never our fault, it's always the "nasty perfidious Europeans" to blame and that's clearly going to be "the line" as an attempt to hold the Conservative vote together by wrapping the Union Jack ("our precious union") ever more tightly round.
Nick P is probably right - there's a dance going on and everyone has to dance their steps. As usual, the British have gone into a European negotiation assuming shouting a lot and promising to "scweam and scweam until I'm sick" will get us what we want. We will be forced to make concessions but we were always going to and it's how the Prime Minister sells the concessions that will be revealing.
It would be nice for May to come out and admit the Government hasn't done the work, hasn't thought through the A50 process and recognises we won't get what we want. HYUFD may well be right (there's a first time for everything) in that we end up with BINO in which we stay in the CU and possibly the SM for goods and get some platitudes on Freedom of Movement.
That would be in the national interest - whether it's in the Conservative Party's interest is of course immaterial.
We knew Chequers was not something that the EU would agree, right back in July. Why did she squander another 2 months on it?
Overall, May seems a pretty pisspoor negotiator, probably due to her lack of people skills.
Labour need to immediately appoint Abbot. She'll give the solid foundation that Lammy needs. In just a few months McDonnel's economic policies will be put before the World Bank. It's pretty clear that every mind in the room will align with this totally discredited view. McDonnel will borrow 4 trillion pounds. UNITE will form a committee as to how to make the best use of their 2bn share. Cakes all round, and 12% payrises linked to inflation or any number that might be greater, 51 weeks of holiday per year, with an additional dispensation to ex-mining families. What hasn't gone away though is class struggle - It is absolutely unfair that even under the new scheme there are people working over an hour a day and that their children can't expect to be gifted lordships.
Both sides are going to royally fuck up because they are too proud to admit their failures.
Davis said the EU wouldn't accept Chequers. He was right, May and Robbins were wrong.
Davis was preparing to unveil his plan at Chequers which was based on the offer the EU made months and months ago. May and Robbins ambushed him.
Time for May to say she and her plan have failed and hand over to the person who's plan she rejected.
It was still obvious the EU would reject it, as they have rejected everything bar Norway or no deal, but she had to be seen to be trying it.
#WhatGoesAroundComesAround
If you think I am wrong can you detail the mechanics for David Davis to take over and the time it would take.
Please make your argument based on possibility, not some vague wish
How might you deal with this ? You could say at the outset, the border issue is important. Nothing should get in the way of the GFA. Let's ask the Anglo Irish Council ( or whatever it's called now ) to investigate and come back with solutions. If nothing else it buys time.
One is Gove.
The other is Johnson.
They are both even more dangerous to Britain than Corbyn is.
*That's a reference to Corbyn, in case anyone is in doubt.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/13/its-hard-brexit-or-no-brexit-at-all-says-eu-council-president
"The UK faces the stark choice of either a hard Brexit or no Brexit, the president of the European council has said "
- Donald Tusk, Oct 2016
It is their fault that we want the benefits of being in whilst being out?
It was NEVER going to work.
It is not a prison. We ARE leaving. We just are not getting things our way.
Very much still seems neither side understands the other, which justifies further the leave case. If they're attempt to De dramatise still crossed a red line of ours why would we have to be kind about that? You have rightly defended their right to be blunt in defending their red lines.
But when that sad day does finally arrive please ensure that you have asked for your brain to be donated to science because humanity really needs to know what is going on in there and learn from it.
But it is their fault that the very real advantages have been outweighed, however unfairly, in the public mind (and not just here) by the very significant negatives.
I still think if they had had the sense to lock Juncker up in an inebriates' home instead of making him President of the Commission on the recommendation of the EPP we would have voted in.
Look at it with a cold eye and that's where we are. We want free trade but none of the political crap that comes with it.
The problem - and what ultimately tipped me to remain - is that we cannot have one without another, and we needed to be in to keep the crap to a minimum.
I am sure he has been watching , The Darkest Hour in preparation for the nation to require his inspirational leadership.
For example:
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-38503504