There's No Deal and there's No Deal whatsoever. Are we heading to no deal whatsoever? No planes flying, unable to use drivers license abroad? Trucks cant enter or leave the UK?
The latter, we're close to that or an extension to Article 50.
We simply are running out of time to get stuff sorted and ratified.
Remember solving Northern Ireland was meant to be easy.
But thats assuming the other stuff isnt all done and ready to be agreed. The stuff that can be agreed, the 80% is already there.
We dont need an extension of membership, but a fall back into customs union/single market for a fixed time call it a transition or whatever. Not doing so will rip all the economies of Europe, ours more so, but all of them will suffer.
Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
If everything isn't agreed then we get No Deal.
An act of massive self sabotage for both sides to not allow planes to fly in and out of heathrow. To not let uk visitors go to spain on holiday. To not let BMW export their cars and cadburys to import their chocolate from Poland.
Without wanting to trigger some people, Brexit can be compared to the start of the WWI.
Why did the government and so many others delude themselves that they would.
And me also. The EU are very attached to their pillars, though they arent as core and historic as they imply. While a fudge could be possible, they've been quite consistent, if you want free movement of goods, you need to accept free movement of labour (not people, labour). The further you impede labour, the further you go from free movement of goods.
The choice has only ever really been a Norway model or a Canada model. Pick one and try and improve it and maybe customise it a bit. But Chequers wanted the Norway access with the Canada obligations....
We can perhaps update it to... the man who's divorcing his wife & has told all his mates, and her friends, that he'll be getting dinner & a blowjob from her every night after the divorce.
Good - it will make May's conference speech easier. A 'Fuck the EU' theme will be a much more pleasing sell.
But it is not a sustainable strategy. This is much of the problem we have had since the start: may has seen the entire process through the prism of keeping the Tories together and her in Number 10. The national interest has never been a consideration.
The Tories put their party interests ahead of the national interest. Every single time!
Yep, I wrote about it on this very site last year. It still rings very true today, IMO ;i)
In general, we all tend to think that the policies we favour are in the national interest. Those of us who support Brexit do so because we think it's the correct course of action, not because we think it benefits the Conservative Party.
Anyone not supporting Brexit has a tricky democracy issue.
Good - it will make May's conference speech easier. A 'Fuck the EU' theme will be a much more pleasing sell.
But it is not a sustainable strategy. This is much of the problem we have had since the start: may has seen the entire process through the prism of keeping the Tories together and her in Number 10. The national interest has never been a consideration.
The Tories put their party interests ahead of the national interest. Every single time!
Yep, I wrote about it on this very site last year. It still rings very true today, IMO ;i)
In general, we all tend to think that the policies we favour are in the national interest. Those of us who support Brexit do so because we think it's the correct course of action, not because we think it benefits the Conservative Party.
Anyone not supporting Brexit has a tricky democracy issue.
Anyone not supporting people's right to oppose Brexit has a tricky democracy issue.
As I have been saying since day one, Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are f*cking idiots!
I don't think you're the most persuasive of advocates for the EU,
It's why he won last time...
When you're up against xenophobia, disingenuous politicians placing political ambition above the national interest, a weak minded populace who rather than looking at themselves and trying to reflect on their lack of achievement (i.e. why am I a lazy uneducated piece of sh*t) taking the easy way out and pointing fingers at all those successful hard-working foreigners, it was always going to be a tough ask.
See that you have made the amazing transformation from someone who was on the sensible side of the argument to someone who is quite frankly a clown.
Mr. S, it's curious how some are some comfortable hating their own countrymen, and doing so openly, whilst accusing others of xenophobia with little or no accompanying evidence whatsoever.
There's No Deal and there's No Deal whatsoever. Are we heading to no deal whatsoever? No planes flying, unable to use drivers license abroad? Trucks cant enter or leave the UK?
The latter, we're close to that or an extension to Article 50.
We simply are running out of time to get stuff sorted and ratified.
Remember solving Northern Ireland was meant to be easy.
But thats assuming the other stuff isnt all done and ready to be agreed. The stuff that can be agreed, the 80% is already there.
We dont need an extension of membership, but a fall back into customs union/single market for a fixed time call it a transition or whatever. Not doing so will rip all the economies of Europe, ours more so, but all of them will suffer.
Nothing is agreed until everything is agreed.
If everything isn't agreed then we get No Deal.
An act of massive self sabotage for both sides to not allow planes to fly in and out of heathrow. To not let uk visitors go to spain on holiday. To not let BMW export their cars and cadburys to import their chocolate from Poland.
Without wanting to trigger some people, Brexit can be compared to the start of the WWI.
Why did the government and so many others delude themselves that they would.
And me also. The EU are very attached to their pillars, though they arent as core and historic as they imply. While a fudge could be possible, they've been quite consistent, if you want free movement of goods, you need to accept free movement of labour (not people, labour). The further you impede labour, the further you go from free movement of goods.
The choice has only ever really been a Norway model or a Canada model. Pick one and try and improve it and maybe customise it a bit. But Chequers wanted the Norway access with the Canada obligations....
We can perhaps update it to... the man who's divorcing his wife & has told all his mates, and her friends, that he'll be getting dinner & a blowjob from her every night after the divorce.
What's Boris's next move? Surely he'll pop up at some 'fringe event' during conference and absolutely eviscerate Theresa and all her works. He'll then sit back and wait for a desperate and humiliated nation to choose him as its saviour from Brexit.
Given his recent moves have been insane, who knows.
What he should do is work out where we'll be, work out what the issues will be, and think about what his views on them are. Then he should go on holiday,and especially so from his paper-round.
As I have been saying since day one, Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are f*cking idiots!
I don't think you're the most persuasive of advocates for the EU,
It's why he won last time...
When you're up against xenophobia, disingenuous politicians placing political ambition above the national interest, a weak minded populace who rather than looking at themselves and trying to reflect on their lack of achievement (i.e. why am i lazy uneducated piece of sh*t) taking the easy way out and pointing fingers at all those successful hard-working foreigners, it was always going to be a tough ask.
See that you have made the amazing transformation from someone who was on the sensible side of the argument to someone who is quite frankly a clown.
I support democracy. My side lost. I accept the result.
Calling those who voted for the other side names is unlikely to persuade them of the error of their ways.
How can you live in a country full of "lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t"?
If the choice is between no deal and the whole of the UK staying in the customs union, surely May chooses the latter? Am I right in thinking the customs union resolves the Irish border?
No, the customs union solves two issues for the EU they are that tariffs have been paid according to the CET and this means rules of origin are met. What it does not solve is regulatory checks. Regulatory checks are 70% of border checks at the EU borders. It also does not solve sanitary and phytosanitary checks for food. As we have found out even being a full member of the EU means we have SPS checks from GB to NI. EEA and CU does not solve the Irish border either, because of SPS checks so it would need to be EEA+CU+SPS agreements with the EU to have a friction less border.
We can perhaps update it to... the man who's divorcing his wife & has told all his mates, and her friends, that he'll be getting dinner & a blowjob from her every night after the divorce.
And is about to find out how it all works out.
I am toying with an update to that, but it might be a bit too shocking/graphic for most PBers.
Something expecting to be the pitcher but ending up being the catcher.
I see the recent 'May's doing rather well & we're reaching the kabuki & fudge stage' phase on PB didn't last long, and we're back to prolapses and pitiful blustering about withholding £39b. Can we have a sweepstake on which poster will be the first to demand Tusk's official residence should be nuked?
What's Boris's next move? Surely he'll pop up at some 'fringe event' during conference and absolutely eviscerate Theresa and all her works. He'll then sit back and wait for a desperate and humiliated nation to choose him as its saviour from Brexit.
Perhaps he'll have a mawkish film made of him travelling on the underground as he gauges the mood of The Peepul.
Mr. S, it's curious how some are some comfortable hating their own countrymen, and doing so openly, whilst accusing others of xenophobia with little or no accompanying evidence whatsoever.
Not sure who you have in mind, but the Brexiteers fundamental problem has always been a failure to prepare, seasoned heavily with mendacity.
The EU has always been consistent over the 4 freedoms being as one. We may disagree or dislike that position, but it is not in our power to change it.
The Brexiteers grandstanding over walking away was never credible without serious preparation for No Deal.
Boris' bizarre fetish for comparing himself to Churchill and wishing to be seen in that light is just odd.
Anyway, I suspect Boris will correctly identify the key strategic dividing line, then immediately take action that he doesn't want to succeed (it will) and which will simultaneously prevent him becoming PM.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
Mr. S, it's curious how some are some comfortable hating their own countrymen, and doing so openly, whilst accusing others of xenophobia with little or no accompanying evidence whatsoever.
There is abundant evidence that the Leave campaigns pandered to xenophobia.
What's Boris's next move? Surely he'll pop up at some 'fringe event' during conference and absolutely eviscerate Theresa and all her works. He'll then sit back and wait for a desperate and humiliated nation to choose him as its saviour from Brexit.
Perhaps he'll have a mawkish film made of him travelling on the underground as he gauges the mood of The Peepul.
Well didn't the German's say yesterday that we needed to experience our Darkest Hour?
Chequers was dead almost on arrival, the question was and is are those insisting the UK, at least under May, cannot concede further wrong or not. The EU clearly believe so, but the number opposed to Chequers or Chequers lite, for wildly different reasons, do not appear to indicate any more concessions can be made.
Given the lack of clear support for any option i suspect we shall see some pretty big shifts in position soon, even if it massively contradicts past comments. Labour backing a second referendum seems the most likely first step - no way labour rebels will outnumber Tory ones on a Chequers lite deal, should one emerge.
Still not straightforward, but with opposing options and no majority one, And a ticking clock, many people are going to do a vast u turn at some point. The EU dont look like doing so. May might but can she survive that? The hard Brexiteers would look very stupid if they did, and since no deal is preferred it seems unlikely. Labour have more wiggle room but are there enough Tory rebels to force something on the gov? It is fraught with problems, but itself more plausible than other options to me.
What's Boris's next move? Surely he'll pop up at some 'fringe event' during conference and absolutely eviscerate Theresa and all her works. He'll then sit back and wait for a desperate and humiliated nation to choose him as its saviour from Brexit.
Perhaps he'll have a mawkish film made of him travelling on the underground as he gauges the mood of The Peepul.
As I have been saying since day one, Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are f*cking idiots!
I don't think you're the most persuasive of advocates for the EU,
It's why he won last time...
When you're up against xenophobia, disingenuous politicians placing political ambition above the national interest, a weak minded populace who rather than looking at themselves and trying to reflect on their lack of achievement (i.e. why am i lazy uneducated piece of sh*t) taking the easy way out and pointing fingers at all those successful hard-working foreigners, it was always going to be a tough ask.
See that you have made the amazing transformation from someone who was on the sensible side of the argument to someone who is quite frankly a clown.
I support democracy. My side lost. I accept the result.
Calling those who voted for the other side names is unlikely to persuade them of the error of their ways.
How can you live in a country full of "lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t"?
Did I say the country was *full* of these people?
So, when Corbyn wins the next election, CarlottaVance will be one of his if not his greatest cheerleader. Can't wait...
I am lucky, I am fortunate enough to pack up and leave rather than face the catastrophe of a hard Brexit. Others are not so fortunate...
Chequers was dead almost on arrival, the question was and is are those insisting the UK, at least under May, cannot concede further wrong or not. The EU clearly believe so, but the number opposed to Chequers or Chequers lite, for wildly different reasons, do not appear to indicate any more concessions can be made.
Given the lack of clear support for any option i suspect we shall see some pretty big shifts in position soon, even if it massively contradicts past comments. Labour backing a second referendum seems the most likely first step - no way labour rebels will outnumber Tory ones on a Chequers lite deal, should one emerge.
Still not straightforward, but with opposing options and no majority one, And a ticking clock, many people are going to do a vast u turn at some point. The EU dont look like doing so. May might but can she survive that? The hard Brexiteers would look very stupid if they did, and since no deal is preferred it seems unlikely. Labour have more wiggle room but are there enough Tory rebels to force something on the gov? It is fraught with problems, but itself more plausible than other options to me.
We should all be able to agree - it is a monumental crisis and the way through it is simply impossible to predict
As I have been saying since day one, Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are f*cking idiots!
I don't think you're the most persuasive of advocates for the EU,
At least we are no longer ugly motherfuckers.
No, just "lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t"
Which is ironic, given it was the lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t who managed to lose the unloseable Referendum! Despite having every inbuilt advantage. They really must be some dumb mofos.....
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
A. With one exception - see below - the EU and members don't care what we think.
B. Wrong. The EU and members want to see us off the premises with the least cost to them. Hence the lack of compromise.
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
Chequers was dead almost on arrival, the question was and is are those insisting the UK, at least under May, cannot concede further wrong or not. The EU clearly believe so, but the number opposed to Chequers or Chequers lite, for wildly different reasons, do not appear to indicate any more concessions can be made.
Given the lack of clear support for any option i suspect we shall see some pretty big shifts in position soon, even if it massively contradicts past comments. Labour backing a second referendum seems the most likely first step - no way labour rebels will outnumber Tory ones on a Chequers lite deal, should one emerge.
Still not straightforward, but with opposing options and no majority one, And a ticking clock, many people are going to do a vast u turn at some point. The EU dont look like doing so. May might but can she survive that? The hard Brexiteers would look very stupid if they did, and since no deal is preferred it seems unlikely. Labour have more wiggle room but are there enough Tory rebels to force something on the gov? It is fraught with problems, but itself more plausible than other options to me.
We should all be able to agree - it is a monumental crisis and the way through it is simply impossible to predict
I honestly cannot see how any option actually happens, but something must. It reminds me of a critique if revisionism which, In ruling out as a main cause all the reasons for the civil war, inadvertendtly 'proved' that it could not have happened - every brexit option from no deal to remain is easy to explain away as fundamentally flawed.
No deal probably wins purely on the basis of default option in the event of total chaos.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
A. With one exception - see below - the EU and members don't care what we think.
B. Wrong. The EU and members want to see us off the premises with the least cost to them. Hence the lack of compromise.
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
Spoken like a true remainer and 39 billion is a lot to lose
As I have been saying since day one, Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are f*cking idiots!
I don't think you're the most persuasive of advocates for the EU,
It's why he won last time...
When you're up against xenophobia, disingenuous politicians placing political ambition above the national interest, a weak minded populace who rather than looking at themselves and trying to reflect on their lack of achievement (i.e. why am i lazy uneducated piece of sh*t) taking the easy way out and pointing fingers at all those successful hard-working foreigners, it was always going to be a tough ask.
See that you have made the amazing transformation from someone who was on the sensible side of the argument to someone who is quite frankly a clown.
I support democracy. My side lost. I accept the result.
Calling those who voted for the other side names is unlikely to persuade them of the error of their ways.
How can you live in a country full of "lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t"?
So, when Corbyn wins the next election, CarlottaVance will be one of his if not his greatest cheerleader. Can't wait...
I provided you with an explanation - clearly an understanding is beyond you.
If Corbyn wins the next GE he will be Prime Minister - I won't be calling for another GE. That's what democrats do. Accept the result, move on.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
The UK was working with Ireland on customs/border plans until Varadkar cancelled them.
As I have been saying since day one, Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are f*cking idiots!
I don't think you're the most persuasive of advocates for the EU,
At least we are no longer ugly motherfuckers.
No, just "lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t"
Which is ironic, given it was the lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t who managed to lose the unloseable Referendum! Despite having every inbuilt advantage. They really must be some dumb mofos.....
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
A. With one exception - see below - the EU and members don't care what we think.
B. Wrong. The EU and members want to see us off the premises with the least cost to them. Hence the lack of compromise.
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
Spoken like a true remainer and 39 billion is a lot to lose
In an EU context, 39 billion is peanuts, but if we don't pay any outstanding dues and bills, then we'll be well and truly f**ked when we want any favours.....
As I have been saying since day one, Brexit is a calamity and Brexiteers are f*cking idiots!
I don't think you're the most persuasive of advocates for the EU,
At least we are no longer ugly motherfuckers.
No, just "lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t"
Which is ironic, given it was the lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t who managed to lose the unloseable Referendum! Despite having every inbuilt advantage. They really must be some dumb mofos.....
Doh! You really don't get it, do you?
Have you made a point I'm supposed to have got? Cuz that would be a first....
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
A. With one exception - see below - the EU and members don't care what we think.
B. Wrong. The EU and members want to see us off the premises with the least cost to them. Hence the lack of compromise.
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
Spoken like a true remainer and 39 billion is a lot to lose
In an EU context, 39 billion is peanuts, but if we don't pay any outstanding dues and bills, then we'll be well and truly f**ked when we want any favours.....
I doubt it is peanuts to the EU and how do you think a UK PM can consent to handing over that money for no return - there would be public uproar
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
A. With one exception - see below - the EU and members don't care what we think.
B. Wrong. The EU and members want to see us off the premises with the least cost to them. Hence the lack of compromise.
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
Spoken like a true remainer and 39 billion is a lot to lose
In an EU context, 39 billion is peanuts, but if we don't pay any outstanding dues and bills, then we'll be well and truly f**ked when we want any favours.....
I doubt it is peanuts to the EU and how do you think a UK PM can consent to handing over that money for no return - there would be public uproar
It’s superficially a large number to the dimmer public (the same people who fail to get excited about billions of IT project failures). In the grand scheme of EU budgeting it’s peanuts.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
The UK was working with Ireland on customs/border plans until Varadkar cancelled them.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
A. With one exception - see below - the EU and members don't care what we think.
B. Wrong. The EU and members want to see us off the premises with the least cost to them. Hence the lack of compromise.
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
Spoken like a true remainer and 39 billion is a lot to lose
No need to personalize, Mr G. It is what it is. I regret people blaming others for the consequences of their decision, but it doesn't move you forward.
So it appears that today’s the day when everyone turns the rhetoric up to 11.
It was always going to happen at some point, but the actual negotiations continue as the politicians and journalists (and forum posters!) escalate their language - and 99% of the country tunes out completely.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
I am curious why this has caused you so much anger towards the EU. We've basically spent the entire year making them the same offer on the Irish border question over and over under different names and guises, and every time they've said "No". They obligingly gave May a reprieve over the summer, but all she's come back with is a request for them to help her run down the clock even more, with very little time left. I don't blame them for putting their foot down and making it clear that no still means no. The sooner we move on from a deal that was DOA, the better for everyone, right?
I guess people were still holding out for a compromise, but whenever we drill down into what that actually looks like, it seems to mean the EU crossing some of their red lines, but us not doing the same in return.
Sounds like a cold reboot of Parliament needed, or in other words a General Election.
How does that help in anyway? It's not like the parties will helpfully split into no deal and remain, since labour would probably fudge it with 'deal, but not this one and question mark if that doesn't work' and the Tories probably 'no deal, although if the EU change their mind then May be deal'
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
A. With one exception - see below - the EU and members don't care what we think.
B. Wrong. The EU and members want to see us off the premises with the least cost to them. Hence the lack of compromise.
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
Spoken like a true remainer and 39 billion is a lot to lose
In an EU context, 39 billion is peanuts, but if we don't pay any outstanding dues and bills, then we'll be well and truly f**ked when we want any favours.....
I doubt it is peanuts to the EU and how do you think a UK PM can consent to handing over that money for no return - there would be public uproar
If a friend owed you a lot of money, then refused to pay up, and then came back to you for help, you would probably express disinterest. And would you recommend your other friends and colleagues to do business with them? So it will be with other countries that we will try and do business with. If we do not pay for the money owed by the UK, then the penalties we will be paying will be a lot worse. Just think of getting a loan from the global equivalent of Wonga....
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
The UK was working with Ireland on customs/border plans until Varadkar cancelled them.
That's selective. Varadkar represents the firm consensus in Ireland. The fact is the border is a big issue.for the Irish and the UK aggressively patronized the Irish about it. Ireland would be the UK's biggest ally in the EU because they are affected by Brexit in a way other EU members aren't.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
I am curious why this has caused you so much anger towards the EU. We've basically spent the entire year making them the same offer on the Irish border question over and over under different names and guises, and every time they've said "No". They obligingly gave May a reprieve over the summer, but all she's come back with is a request for them to help her run down the clock even more, with very little time left. I don't blame them for putting their foot down and making it clear that no still means no. The sooner we move on from a deal that was DOA, the better for everyone, right?
I guess people were still holding out for a compromise, but whenever we drill down into what that actually looks like, it seems to mean the EU crossing some of their red lines, but us not doing the same in return.
We have made concessions have we not, that's why harder Brexiteers hated Chequers so much, so it is not fair to suggest we've not tried to give and to take, even to where many argue red lines were crossed. Indeed it would not be a negotiation if we did not ask for some give from the EU. They are not willing to do so to that extent and you're right we need to move on - Either concede still further (leaving aside for the moment the gov probably falls in that scenario) after all, or change direction to no deal - but however fair or reasonable the EU are or are not it does not seem reasonable to suggest we've not crossed lines. Of all the criticisms of our approach- failing to clarify the offer a long time ago for one- I don't think that's up there.
...and so is this calamitous incompetent *Tory* Government.
With us for another three and a half years.....
I wouldn't get on that, frankly. They don't want an early election, but someone is going to massively switch direction soon and some of the options could result in a GE. I don't buy for a second Tory leads or parity would survive a government collapse that woukd require either.
...and so is this calamitous incompetent *Tory* Government.
Not according to a stream of polls. The only party going down in the polls is the labour party
Opinion polls come and go. We all know what happened to the Tory 25% lead prior to the last GE....
That's true, and I think they'd lose, but it is incredibly complacent to assume a lead or parity would evaporate in a campaign, that isn't some law of nature either.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
The UK was working with Ireland on customs/border plans until Varadkar cancelled them.
That's selective. Varadkar represents the firm consensus in Ireland. The fact is the border is a big issue.for the Irish and the UK aggressively patronized the Irish about it. Ireland would be the UK's biggest ally in the EU because they are affected by Brexit in a way other EU members aren't.
Is it inaccurate?
I do think the Irish have played a blinder in Brussels lobbying - but if it does go no deal they will be hit almost as badly as the U.K. with fewer remedies at their disposal. And the view that this Brussels support will not come with a price tag is naive.
They said as soon as it was published that it was crap
Indeed, a very announced ambush. Mostly by leaks, but still. Time for the government to commit to no deal or admit we all need to bend over and let the ERG precipitate the next phase - a fight for a GE, extension, or referendum on the aforementioned bending over.
To be honest I have tried to play fair and assumed a deal was in the making. But after today's performance by the EU and in particular Macron's comments I am furious with the EU and their club.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
Aw diddums. How *dare* the EU look after their own interests? They should just do exactly what we say. Because ... well, just because.
Not giving in on red lines may well be in their interests. No deal is not though (though even less in ours). If they are betting on us kowtowing it might work, but they might regret not fudging a red line if the alternative is a chaotic mess. Principles may be in conflict.
If they were content to pay that price all along rather than fudge then what a waste of time they have engaged in this whole time.
“May calls on Corbyn to rule out EUref2” exactly what I have been saying for weeks, people waking up to the EUs charade of negotiation. Speak up Corbin! Stand up for the Democratic Leave vote! And whilst she’s calling Corbyn she can call on Greening and other sinners and circus acts in her own party to rule out peoples vote too, lets not underestimate support May needs behind her in Parliament and across British politics right now for the good of Britain,, those currently too quiet or aboard the peoples vote already, this IS undermining May when she goes to Europe to negotiate, because the overwhelming parliament votes in favour of triggering Brexit are now in history books, the whole of EU, Britain, the universe and heaven can see how pro Brexit and pro chequers coalitions are melting away by the hour, like a snowman in April sunshine. Speak up Corbin! Stand up for the Leave vote! Only way for proper deal is EU moves, they talk up the deal making to the media yet in their own minds they aint budging a smidgen whilst GB melts and wobbles. Speak up Corbin! Stand up and honour the democracy of Leave vote! Don’t mistake what I am saying, this isn’t attack on May, May aint melting and wobbling. But if everything else looks melting and wobbling around her, her difficult woman act in the negotiation room isn’t worth tuppence, is it?
Its time for the Mail to get their Traitors front page out, with Corbyn and Greening in the stocks (Not Vince, cant expect LibDems to honour democratic vote on leaving EU)
“May calls on Corbyn to rule out EUref2” that bits good, like it, long overdue. The next thing she needs to do is prevent whining millions at her own party conference calling for the People Vote as that will be toxic in the negotiating room.
What happens next is rubbish.
Corbyn responds saying, “I have just been to my own party conference who voted against me and democracy for EUref2 comprehensive 60% v 40%”
Only logical outcome, EU think, why are we giving ground right now? From negotiation team to council they thinking why we giving anything up for GB this moment, GB sliding to another vote, all we need do is tidy up No deal+ into less painful no Deal++ and wait for what happens.
No deal++ nailed on!
Meanwhile, back in GB, 2nd ref becomes more inevitable by the hour, as, rather than becoming known as the great democratic out vote, the first vote is fast becoming known as the “we didn’t know what we was voting for” vote, the blame for that (if there’s any justice in this world) on Osborne, Carney and Cameron for the ridiculous project fear when there should have been proper debate (and more ridiculous pre vote “negotiation” that couldn’t even rule out the arrival of Turkish hordes).
Aw diddums. How *dare* the EU look after their own interests? They should just do exactly what we say. Because ... well, just because.
Not giving in on red lines may well be in their interests. No deal is not though (though even less in ours). If they are betting on us kowtowing it might work, but they might regret not fudging a red line if the alternative is a chaotic mess. Principles may be in conflict.
If they were content to pay that price all along rather than fudge then what a waste of time they have engaged in this whole time.
There is, of course, still time for the fudge to be finished. But on the other hand, it's perfectly possible that they're not being rational - and that we're not, either.
What an awful mess that will be. A tragedy for the country.
The rejection today will focus minds and I would expect a groundswell of anti EU sentiment
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
I am curious why this has caused you so much anger towards the EU. We've basically spent the entire year making them the same offer on the Irish border question over and over under different names and guises, and every time they've said "No". They obligingly gave May a reprieve over the summer, but all she's come back with is a request for them to help her run down the clock even more, with very little time left. I don't blame them for putting their foot down and making it clear that no still means no. The sooner we move on from a deal that was DOA, the better for everyone, right?
I guess people were still holding out for a compromise, but whenever we drill down into what that actually looks like, it seems to mean the EU crossing some of their red lines, but us not doing the same in return.
We have made concessions have we not, that's why harder Brexiteers hated Chequers so much, so it is not fair to suggest we've not tried to give and to take, even to where many argue red lines were crossed. Indeed it would not be a negotiation if we did not ask for some give from the EU. They are not willing to do so to that extent and you're right we need to move on - Either concede still further (leaving aside for the moment the gov probably falls in that scenario) after all, or change direction to no deal - but however fair or reasonable the EU are or are not it does not seem reasonable to suggest we've not crossed lines. Of all the criticisms of our approach- failing to clarify the offer a long time ago for one- I don't think that's up there.
Both sides have red lines they're totally unwilling to cross, e.g separating the four freedoms or NI staying in the CU. The question has been whether there's any possible deal that doesn't break any of those lines... or alternatively will one side chicken out and concede something they'd said was a red line. Short of either of those happening, any other concessions are irrelevant because we don't even have the basis for a deal.
Comments
We can perhaps update it to... the man who's divorcing his wife & has told all his mates, and her friends, that he'll be getting dinner & a blowjob from her every night after the divorce.
And is about to find out how it all works out.
See that you have made the amazing transformation from someone who was on the sensible side of the argument to someone who is quite frankly a clown.
As someone said
What he should do is work out where we'll be, work out what the issues will be, and think about what his views on them are. Then he should go on holiday,and especially so from his paper-round.
Calling those who voted for the other side names is unlikely to persuade them of the error of their ways.
How can you live in a country full of "lazy uneducated pieces of sh*t"?
EEA and CU does not solve the Irish border either, because of SPS checks so it would need to be EEA+CU+SPS agreements with the EU to have a friction less border.
Something expecting to be the pitcher but ending up being the catcher.
https://twitter.com/GeorginaEWright/status/1042814586238500864
The EU has always been consistent over the 4 freedoms being as one. We may disagree or dislike that position, but it is not in our power to change it.
The Brexiteers grandstanding over walking away was never credible without serious preparation for No Deal.
Boris' bizarre fetish for comparing himself to Churchill and wishing to be seen in that light is just odd.
Anyway, I suspect Boris will correctly identify the key strategic dividing line, then immediately take action that he doesn't want to succeed (it will) and which will simultaneously prevent him becoming PM.
They are actively seeking a second referendum aided by many remainers here and this could just backfire on them
If this goes pear shaped the irony is that Ireland will be seriously damaged. Wonder how their new sea routes and larger ro ro ferries are coming on when UK closes their land bridge
May is the one pushing Chequers. Many others want a different deal (Davis' preference is Canada with twiddly bits).
Given the lack of clear support for any option i suspect we shall see some pretty big shifts in position soon, even if it massively contradicts past comments. Labour backing a second referendum seems the most likely first step - no way labour rebels will outnumber Tory ones on a Chequers lite deal, should one emerge.
Still not straightforward, but with opposing options and no majority one, And a ticking clock, many people are going to do a vast u turn at some point. The EU dont look like doing so. May might but can she survive that? The hard Brexiteers would look very stupid if they did, and since no deal is preferred it seems unlikely. Labour have more wiggle room but are there enough Tory rebels to force something on the gov? It is fraught with problems, but itself more plausible than other options to me.
Play nicely.
So, when Corbyn wins the next election, CarlottaVance will be one of his if not his greatest cheerleader. Can't wait...
I am lucky, I am fortunate enough to pack up and leave rather than face the catastrophe of a hard Brexit. Others are not so fortunate...
https://twitter.com/bellingcat/status/1042817276548919296
Negotiation via press release and gossip is no way to proceed.
https://twitter.com/tconnellyRTE/status/1042801651407618048
B. Wrong. The EU and members want to see us off the premises with the least cost to them. Hence the lack of compromise.
C. Ireland is damaged by Brexit, not of their choosing, any which way and to the same extent Britain is damaged. The UK has hardly reached out to the Irish to act as its advocate in the EU, seeing.as it shares the same fate.
No deal probably wins purely on the basis of default option in the event of total chaos.
If Corbyn wins the next GE he will be Prime Minister - I won't be calling for another GE. That's what democrats do. Accept the result, move on.
TMay 2018 Q4 exit continues to drift - now 11/2.
Odds on a 2019 GE pretty static - still over 2/1.
A bit of money for a 2018 GE but that appears completely implausible as long as negotiations continue until at least mid October.
Does this imply the markets are simply taking the Nick Palmer view - which seems entirely plausible.
Sounds like a cold reboot of Parliament needed, or in other words a General Election.
We need some betting prospects. I cannot get too excited about Senate races in flyover states.
It was always going to happen at some point, but the actual negotiations continue as the politicians and journalists (and forum posters!) escalate their language - and 99% of the country tunes out completely.
I guess people were still holding out for a compromise, but whenever we drill down into what that actually looks like, it seems to mean the EU crossing some of their red lines, but us not doing the same in return.
https://order-order.com/2018/09/20/new-chris-grayling-moron-party-thwarted/
I do think the Irish have played a blinder in Brussels lobbying - but if it does go no deal they will be hit almost as badly as the U.K. with fewer remedies at their disposal. And the view that this Brussels support will not come with a price tag is naive.
Indeed even the Tories are coming round to the idea. @ Williamglenn may yet prove to be tipster of the year.
LOL! What a cluster **** for May and that fool Robbins!
Guess Theresa should've stuck with her former Brexit secretary (who knew what the EU would accept and what they wouldn't) afterall.
They have caused justifiable anger and who wants to be associated with such an organisation
Indeed I may have to apologize to Aussie Archer. I do not want a WTO deal but if someone can convince me my families jobs are secure I would back it, entirely as a result of today
The bully boys of the EU and, but for three, they are all men need showing that no one humiliates this country, end of story
If they were content to pay that price all along rather than fudge then what a waste of time they have engaged in this whole time.
And whilst she’s calling Corbyn she can call on Greening and other sinners and circus acts in her own party to rule out peoples vote too, lets not underestimate support May needs behind her in Parliament and across British politics right now for the good of Britain,, those currently too quiet or aboard the peoples vote already, this IS undermining May when she goes to Europe to negotiate, because the overwhelming parliament votes in favour of triggering Brexit are now in history books, the whole of EU, Britain, the universe and heaven can see how pro Brexit and pro chequers coalitions are melting away by the hour, like a snowman in April sunshine. Speak up Corbin! Stand up for the Leave vote! Only way for proper deal is EU moves, they talk up the deal making to the media yet in their own minds they aint budging a smidgen whilst GB melts and wobbles. Speak up Corbin! Stand up and honour the democracy of Leave vote! Don’t mistake what I am saying, this isn’t attack on May, May aint melting and wobbling. But if everything else looks melting and wobbling around her, her difficult woman act in the negotiation room isn’t worth tuppence, is it?
Its time for the Mail to get their Traitors front page out, with Corbyn and Greening in the stocks (Not Vince, cant expect LibDems to honour democratic vote on leaving EU)
“May calls on Corbyn to rule out EUref2” that bits good, like it, long overdue. The next thing she needs to do is prevent whining millions at her own party conference calling for the People Vote as that will be toxic in the negotiating room.
What happens next is rubbish.
Corbyn responds saying, “I have just been to my own party conference who voted against me and democracy for EUref2 comprehensive 60% v 40%”
Only logical outcome, EU think, why are we giving ground right now? From negotiation team to council they thinking why we giving anything up for GB this moment, GB sliding to another vote, all we need do is tidy up No deal+ into less painful no Deal++ and wait for what happens.
No deal++ nailed on!
Meanwhile, back in GB, 2nd ref becomes more inevitable by the hour, as, rather than becoming known as the great democratic out vote, the first vote is fast becoming known as the “we didn’t know what we was voting for” vote, the blame for that (if there’s any justice in this world) on Osborne, Carney and Cameron for the ridiculous project fear when there should have been proper debate (and more ridiculous pre vote “negotiation” that couldn’t even rule out the arrival of Turkish hordes).
What an awful mess that will be. A tragedy for the country.