Morning. I don’t really see this as interference. It’s telling us that we have another option. Mind you, I thought the EU should have got involved in the debate last time. It seemed to me absurd to have a debate about whether or not to remain in the EU and not involve the EU in that debate. Had we done so we might have had a clearer idea about the realities of what departure meant.
Anyway, I like the reference to “almost unanimous”. Who doesn’t want another UK vote? France?
they have left this card too late to play.
if chickeny runaway Dave had stayed in post they would have had a good chance of making it fly and probably scrape over the line
Has there ever been a more incompetent and useless Minister than Chris Grayling. If we had a functioning government he would have been fired ages ago. He agrees there is a problem with the railways and his answer is a 12 month enquiry into the way forward.
If he was not a leaver and a friend of TM and we were not overwhelmed by Brexit he would be toast.
It is so depressing
Owen Paterson must at least be in contention
This may come as a shock to many but I liked Owen Paterson.
Both sides have made big concessions on this over the last few days. Neither side will claim they’ve made any.
Both will say they’re absolutely sticking to their red lines. Meanwhile, a deal is coming.
It is amazing. The summit has basically proven that no progress has been made at all in nine months. There is no way forward. Both sides are still miles apart on the border, the trade relationship and the jurisdiction of the withdrawal agreement. Yet a deal is coming. Got it.
Another interpretation is that the EU leaders have all been told to spin that it is all going well because they are scared that May will go to her party conference, get torn apart and Boris will take over. They will hold her up because they are scared to death of an alternative and because they believe that she will cave in November. She probably will. But if they continue to insist on a NI backstop the DUP have the numbers to stop her dead.
Why would they be scared of Boris? Don't you claim that both he and they want a Canada-style deal?
They do. But Boris will not cave on NI, nor would he pay the EU before he gets the trade deal.
May will agree a backstop that will allow the EU to offer a FTA after Brexit but force us to accept all EU regulations as well - or they will simply say that the backstop needs to come into force. That is what the backstop is for, and why it should have been rejected.
Apparently, we're in for a deluge. I'm sure the dog will not be amused.
On the Lib Dems: good to hear that apparently Cable's deranged leadership election ideas went down terribly. Maybe there's hope for the yellows after all.
Mr Dancer, one other thing in the speech that stood out to me (apart from spasms, erotic, exotic, or otherwise) was his saying that campaigning to be in the EU wasn't enough - there had to be a recognition that the status quo ante was unsustainable and that the drivers for voting to Leave had to be addressed; that wanting to manage immigration wasn't racism, that areas feeling left behind had to receive investment, that free movement would have to be reformed, and that there was a real prospect of doing so (with Merkel and Macron seeing similar issues rising and EU-wide they were rising).
I've often complained elsewhere to those pushing for somehow still Remaining: "What then?" What was their plan for what do do afterwards, because otherwise we just end up with the exact issues all over again. It's nice to see at least an attempt to answer it and an acknowledgement that it needs to be done.
Interesting that in the podcast Mark Pack suggested, as a successor to Vince Cable, that Christine Jardine was one to watch.
This is NIs second biggest bank and can issue sterling funny money notes
My go to entertainment in Denmark is to go into a small branch with NI notes and ask for them to be exchanged into Krone... The airport branch and a lot of Kopenhagen branch staff now know that Danske issue UK bank notes, other places still don't...
youre doing better than I am. Its a real chore trying to get paddy notes exchanged in Birmingham usually I give them to my kids as a present and watch their faces fall :-)
And now the Einsteins at Ulster Bank have decided to make their bank notes look even less like legitimate bank notes.
The letters will go in the moment that is confirmed.
Wow. The impossible force meets the immovable object.
We cannot maintain the integrity of the Good Friday Agreement without a border free Ireland.
We cannot have a border free Ireland and quit the EEA
We cannot have a deal without the agreement of the EU and governments who will not agree to any deal that does not maintain the integrity of the Good Friday Agreement.
So we either remain in the EEA (end of May's government) or we get no deal (end of May's government).
We cannot leave NI in the EU Customs Union / Regulatory Sphere without breaking the Belfast Agreement (requires democratic consent to changes) - so Barnier's plan does not work either (and the EU very unlikely to grant NI a veto over their regs).
That’s a very creative interpretation of the GFA.
"Consent" isn't part of the Belfast Agreement? As for 'creative interpretations' we need look no further than M. Barnier.....
Any answer to the question you chopped out of my comment?
I thought I'd spare you the embarrassment.
NI is represented in Westminster.
NI will not be represented in Brussels - but will have to accept regulations. Where's the consent?
You used the word veto.
The U.K. is preparing to throw a new Brexit demand into the Irish border mix: democracy.
According to three senior officials from the U.K. and EU27, Theresa May’s team are exploring ways to insert the “consent principle” into the EU’s proposed Northern Ireland backstop — the insurance plan that is intended to avoid a hard border in all circumstances.
“There will have to be some democratic consent (a key element of the Good Friday Agreement),” said one senior U.K. official.
A second official said: “Under the EU’s version of the protocol, it would mean Northern Ireland accepting the EU’s rules without any democratic say. There’s a problem of democratic oversight. You need some kind of democratic anchor if parts of the protocol ever come into force.”
Emmanuel Macron has appealed to his fellow EU leaders to maintain their tough approach to Brexit in response to the British prime minister’s demand for compromise at the end of a late dinner at the opening of an EU summit.
Has there ever been a more incompetent and useless Minister than Chris Grayling. If we had a functioning government he would have been fired ages ago. He agrees there is a problem with the railways and his answer is a 12 month enquiry into the way forward.
If he was not a leaver and a friend of TM and we were not overwhelmed by Brexit he would be toast.
It is so depressing
Owen Paterson must at least be in contention
This may come as a shock to many but I liked Owen Paterson.
His work on GM foods was excellent.
for once you have surprised me Mr Eagles
But on Brexit Owen Paterson is a complete arse.
disappointing
I was hoping you would surprise me again and accept Osborne was the Hannibal Barca of our times
Earlier, the Czech prime minister, Andrej Babiš, had said he would like to see Britain hold a second referendum on membership of the EU.
May specifically ruled out a second vote in her comments at dinner. But Babis told the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “We hope that finally we will reach a deal but I am very unhappy that the UK is leaving, so it would be better maybe to make another referendum and maybe the people in the meantime could change their view.
Emmanuel Macron has appealed to his fellow EU leaders to maintain their tough approach to Brexit in response to the British prime minister’s demand for compromise at the end of a late dinner at the opening of an EU summit.
Particularly interesting as Labour relaxed the law wrt gambling adverts in the first place .
Am I right in recalling that Gordon Brown was against this, and managed to stop the mega-casinos Labour wanted?
Yep:
Blair said Brown’s decision to scrap the Manchester plans, which would have created 3,500 jobs, were ‘the worst form of puritanism’. The former PM said his successor’s decision was a ‘partisan’ and ‘ineffectual’ gesture under pressure from the church and right-wing press. Mr Blair’s attack – in his controversial new autobiography, A Journey – threatens to reopen wounds in the Labour party over the issue.
Banning isn’t the right approach, but the way they market gambling during live sports (with the emphasis on new customer deals and poor-value accumulators) does need looking at.
More important to address, after the machines, are the online bookies’ customer profiling operations.
"Romania has overtaken the Republic of Ireland and India to move from fourth to second most-common non-British nationality in the UK, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) found."
You'd better show that to Keith Vaz, he's still waiting at Heathrow to welcome the second one.
That epitomises politicians, they're always willing to give you the benefit of their ignorance and certainty, and never apologising when it's exposed. Hence the reason Project Fear failed.
Emmanuel Macron has appealed to his fellow EU leaders to maintain their tough approach to Brexit in response to the British prime minister’s demand for compromise at the end of a late dinner at the opening of an EU summit.
My host really doesnt like him. Mind you he'd prefer a return to monarchy
Emmanuel Macron has appealed to his fellow EU leaders to maintain their tough approach to Brexit in response to the British prime minister’s demand for compromise at the end of a late dinner at the opening of an EU summit.
My host really doesnt like him. Mind you he'd prefer a return to monarchy
Emmanuel Macron has appealed to his fellow EU leaders to maintain their tough approach to Brexit in response to the British prime minister’s demand for compromise at the end of a late dinner at the opening of an EU summit.
Of course he does. He sees Britain’s departure as the best way of increasing French influence in the EU. If he succeeds, it will likely make the EU an even more unattractive organisation to rejoin in future. The Eurosceptics focus on Germany’s failings has tended to obscure the fact that it is the French conception of the state which has strongly influenced how the EU operates and which is so at odds with the British approach.
Great, so when the government finally does something about planning and housing all we are going to get is dozens of rich NIMBY hacks more concerned with their own house price than the bigger picture.
Earlier, the Czech prime minister, Andrej Babiš, had said he would like to see Britain hold a second referendum on membership of the EU.
May specifically ruled out a second vote in her comments at dinner. But Babis told the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “We hope that finally we will reach a deal but I am very unhappy that the UK is leaving, so it would be better maybe to make another referendum and maybe the people in the meantime could change their view.
Maybe we should weigh in on the internal politics of other member states?
It’s not really internal politics, though. It’s about our relationship with the European Continent. Both internal and external politics. I really don’t see anything wrong with him expressing an opinion.
Emmanuel Macron has appealed to his fellow EU leaders to maintain their tough approach to Brexit in response to the British prime minister’s demand for compromise at the end of a late dinner at the opening of an EU summit.
Of course he does. He sees Britain’s departure as the best way of increasing French influence in the EU. If he succeeds, it will likely make the EU an even more unattractive organisation to rejoin in future. The Eurosceptics focus on Germany’s failings has tended to obscure the fact that it is the French conception of the state which has strongly influenced how the EU operates and which is so at odds with the British approach.
long term France is the loser though, they now have no country of any stautre to balance against Germany. Macron is going outof his way to wind up eurosceptic states so increasingly he restricts Frances freedom of movement .
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
You might be correct but public perception is clearly at odds with that so managing that is the key (although the nuance seems to beaffordable [ie cheaper] when I buy, expensive when I sell). Having said that there's a limited number of light filled, large apartments in zone 2 which journalists can afford so in the eyes of the press I doubt there will ever be a solution. If the Guardian were still the Manchester Guardian would its reporting be different?
Free market delivers what is actually needed better than management by Government. Who would have thought it...
Yet house prices keep on increasing beyond the ability of too many people to afford. Since our culture values ownership over renting, this is a real political problem.
Building more houses may not help the issue, but we do need a solution. Unfortunately a decrease in house prices is also politically fraught.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
Earlier, the Czech prime minister, Andrej Babiš, had said he would like to see Britain hold a second referendum on membership of the EU.
May specifically ruled out a second vote in her comments at dinner. But Babis told the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “We hope that finally we will reach a deal but I am very unhappy that the UK is leaving, so it would be better maybe to make another referendum and maybe the people in the meantime could change their view.
Maybe we should weigh in on the internal politics of other member states?
It’s not really internal politics, though.
When Mrs May has said the previous evening 'no second referendum' and when there is a campaign by her opponents for one, how could it not be? Even Ronald Reagan wouldn't be drawn on whether he wanted Mrs Thatcher to win before an election.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
And I made the complementary point that there is plenty of housing, it is the affordability that is critical and which poses the problem. Developers' costs are now, on account of the housing bubble of past decades, too high to be able to sell on their stock at affordable prices.
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
Cameron called the referendum Cameron lost the referendum Cameron made no back up plans Cameron legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
When Mrs May has said the previous evening 'no second referendum' and when there is a campaign by her opponents for one, how could it not be? Even Ronald Reagan wouldn't be drawn on whether he wanted Mrs Thatcher to win before an election.
When PM Abe says something like, "I hope the US will reconsider and join the TPP", do you also think that's interfering in their internal politics?
I think there's a difference between saying this and saying "I hope Trump loses to Hillary".
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
And will Lab cave on Brexit and go for full fat SM/CU (with added FoM)?
That's all anyone would care about or they might very likely re-elect the Cons even if they present a no deal/WTO in their manifesto.
But I don't think it will come to that. If I had to guess who will cave in terms of DUP vs hard border I think there will be enough of a fudge that the DUP will accept it (£££ plus other administrative bullshit). I mean if they really want to be aligned what's with the whole abortion thing?
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
I have no sympathy for May. She has done a poor job negotiating because she never believed in Brexit. In which case, she should never have put her hand up for the job. The NI backstop was one of the single biggest mistakes ever made by a British PM.
Now, question for you. You have supported Chequers but lets take May at her word (!) - if the EU won't drop the NI backstop that she has said she would never sign and she therefore elects for No Deal, would you support that?
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
Cameron called the referendum Cameron lost the referendum Cameron made no back up plans Cameron legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
Come, now. Many leavers wanted the referendum for decades, and helped bring down more than one Conservative leader. Despite all their massive intellect and skills, they could not agree on a course of action - and they still cannot.
May's problem lies in the fact that leavers wanted a referendum, and now cannot agree on what it means. That's not Cameron's fault - it's the fault of the people who put their hatred of the EU over and above the good of the country.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
As usual you do the PB jump straight to the extremes and paint everything in between the same colour. There were lots of different opinions both sides and the campaign was one set of dross against the other.
When the dust settles in a decade or so I wouldnt rulle out history being kinder to TM than it is to DC
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Beating Corbyn in 2017 was easy but May made a rickets of that too.
Evidence suggests she's just crap and will screw up any task put in front of her.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
As usual you do the PB jump straight to the extremes and paint everything in between the same colour. There were lots of different opinions both sides and the campaign was one set of dross against the other.
When the dust settles in a decade or so I wouldnt rulle out history being kinder to TM than it is to DC
It’ll be kinder to Dave. At least he never came out with this.
But I don't think it will come to that. If I had to guess who will cave in terms of DUP vs hard border I think there will be enough of a fudge that the DUP will accept it (£££ plus other administrative bullshit). I mean if they really want to be aligned what's with the whole abortion thing?
There's a fairly long list of people who are critical to the continuation of the Brexit project who could bail out for any number of disparate and unpredictable reasons, from concern about the integrity of the UK, to personal ambition, to vengeance.
Earlier, the Czech prime minister, Andrej Babiš, had said he would like to see Britain hold a second referendum on membership of the EU.
May specifically ruled out a second vote in her comments at dinner. But Babis told the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “We hope that finally we will reach a deal but I am very unhappy that the UK is leaving, so it would be better maybe to make another referendum and maybe the people in the meantime could change their view.
Maybe we should weigh in on the internal politics of other member states?
It’s not really internal politics, though.
When Mrs May has said the previous evening 'no second referendum' and when there is a campaign by her opponents for one, how could it not be? Even Ronald Reagan wouldn't be drawn on whether he wanted Mrs Thatcher to win before an election.
Don't be silly - this is merely about the Czech PM expressing a wish that we'd stay in the EU. Which is rather nice of him, really. It might be, probably is, entirely wishful thinking, but it's absurd to say that he doesn't have every right to express the opinion. And I don't think the Czechs (and also the Maltese, who made similar comments), are under any illusion that they will influence UK opinion in favour of a second referendum.
What is far more objectionable is Macron's unbending opposition to any form of compromise. He is a mirror image of the Tory right, in this respect.
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs pn left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
Cameron called the referendum Cameron lost the referendum Cameron made no back up plans Cameron legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
Come, now. Many leavers wanted the referendum for decades, and helped bring down more than one Conservative leader. Despite all their massive intellect and skills, they could not agree on a course of action - and they still cannot.
May's problem lies in the fact that leavers wanted a referendum, and now cannot agree on what it means. That's not Cameron's fault - it's the fault of the people who put their hatred of the EU over and above the good of the country.
The sad thing is they continue to do so.
The Europe boil has been twitching for decades. Lots of PMs have had to live with it, Major especially and he just toughed it out. Nobody forced Cameron to call the ref nor did they force him to call it when he did. Nor did they force him to try and re negotiate with Merkel nor did they force him to front Remain. He made a political call and got it wrong.
On the biggest issue where Remain was weakest - immigration - like every UK government before him he had the choice of changing the social security rules to stop people just drawing down on the system. He chose not to do it.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Shut up you kangaroo botherer.
Robert proved yesterday that you’re talking shite repeatedly.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Shut up you kangaroo botherer.
Robert proved yesterday that you’re talking shite repeatedly.
I see you have resorted to abuse a lot in recent days. It must be much harder than writing OPs when people argue back and you don't have any arguments to defeat them.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Shut up you kangaroo botherer.
Robert proved yesterday that you’re talking shite repeatedly.
It's almost impressive how his fantasies for the future have become 'facts'.
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
The DUP have 10 MPs. For getting a deal through Parliament, the Prime Minister can probably recruit more than that from Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP. The DUP doesn't have a golden ticket.
NB the DUP still haven't been able to spend the money they notionally booked last time because of the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly. For all the criticism Theresa May got last June, she's effectively had their support for free.
If the government is brought down, Jeremy Corbyn might well form the next government without a general election. I'm sure he'd try.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
As usual you do the PB jump straight to the extremes and paint everything in between the same colour. There were lots of different opinions both sides and the campaign was one set of dross against the other.
When the dust settles in a decade or so I wouldnt rulle out history being kinder to TM than it is to DC
It’ll be kinder to Dave. At least he never came out with this.
Just think your Leave vote may just have ultimately signed us up to Ever Closer Union and the single currency.
So funny if that happens.
If the country decides it wants the Euro and ECU so be it. thats to be welcomed , but it will be on the back of a vote not some backdoor sneak it round the edges political fix.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
I have no sympathy for May. She has done a poor job negotiating because she never believed in Brexit. In which case, she should never have put her hand up for the job.
I maintain she never expected or even particularly wanted to be PM.
When stood for the leadership it was really about holding on to her job as home secretary within a Johnson government.
She, like the rest of us, could never have envisioned Boris and Gove would blow themselves up like they did leading her holding the baby...
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Shut up you kangaroo botherer.
Robert proved yesterday that you’re talking shite repeatedly.
I see you have resorted to abuse a lot in recent days. It must be much harder than writing OPs when people argue back and you don't have any arguments to defeat them.
If you think that’s abuse then you really don’t live in the real world.
Earlier, the Czech prime minister, Andrej Babiš, had said he would like to see Britain hold a second referendum on membership of the EU.
May specifically ruled out a second vote in her comments at dinner. But Babis told the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “We hope that finally we will reach a deal but I am very unhappy that the UK is leaving, so it would be better maybe to make another referendum and maybe the people in the meantime could change their view.
Maybe we should weigh in on the internal politics of other member states?
It’s not really internal politics, though.
When Mrs May has said the previous evening 'no second referendum' and when there is a campaign by her opponents for one, how could it not be? Even Ronald Reagan wouldn't be drawn on whether he wanted Mrs Thatcher to win before an election.
Don't be silly - this is merely about the Czech PM expressing a wish that we'd stay in the EU. Which is rather nice of him, really.
Then he could do it a lot more skilfully.
"This is of course a matter for the British government and people. Were they to decide to Remain in the EU after a second referendum I for one would welcome that."
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
As usual you do the PB jump straight to the extremes and paint everything in between the same colour. There were lots of different opinions both sides and the campaign was one set of dross against the other.
When the dust settles in a decade or so I wouldnt rulle out history being kinder to TM than it is to DC
It’ll be kinder to Dave. At least he never came out with this.
Just think your Leave vote may just have ultimately signed us up to Ever Closer Union and the single currency.
So funny if that happens.
If the country decides it wants the Euro and ECU so be it. thats to be welcomed , but it will be on the back of a vote not some backdoor sneak it round the edges political fix.
If a party wins a majority on such a manifesto it’ll happen.
The country won’t put up with long term economic disruption.
Remember the dementia tax.
It’ll be one of history’s great ironies if the 2016 vote enabled that.
No wonder Bernard Jenkin is moaning like a whore about backing Leave now.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
It takes amazing powers of Double Think to believe Leave supporters have been in charge of the country in the last 25 years or so. Has there been a leave supporting PM or CofE in that time? Hardly reflective of a population who, on the whole, don't want to be in the EU
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
The DUP have 10 MPs. For getting a deal through Parliament, the Prime Minister can probably recruit more than that from Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP. The DUP doesn't have a golden ticket.
NB the DUP still haven't been able to spend the money they notionally booked last time because of the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly. For all the criticism Theresa May got last June, she's effectively had their support for free.
If the government is brought down, Jeremy Corbyn might well form the next government without a general election. I'm sure he'd try.
this is of course correct, the DUP to date havent had much to spend as theres nowhere to approve spending it
as for they will never shift, like SF they always do, but just wait for a payoff before they move
TM would have been better letting Nigel Dodds negotiate Brexit than David Davis
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
I have no sympathy for May. She has done a poor job negotiating because she never believed in Brexit. In which case, she should never have put her hand up for the job.
I maintain she never expected or even particularly wanted to be PM.
When stood for the leadership it was really about holding on to her job as home secretary within a Johnson government.
She, like the rest of us, could never have envisioned Boris and Gove would blow themselves up like they did leading her holding the baby...
Disagree. She always wanted it and played the opposite game to Boris.
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
If the government is brought down, Jeremy Corbyn might well form the next government without a general election. I'm sure he'd try.
He only has the numbers if he uses Diane Abbott's calculator.
Brexit is happening, May is going. Next PM will be Hunt or Gove.
Still 6 months of knicker wetting by remainers who think they have a chance of stopping it based on the Kabuki theatre of the negotiations. I feel a bit sorry for them thinking there is still hope.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs pn left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
Cameron called the referendum Cameron lost the referendum Cameron made no back up plans Cameron legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
Come, now. Many leavers wanted the referendum for decades, and helped bring down more than one Conservative leader. Despite all their massive intellect and skills, they could not agree on a course of action - and they still cannot.
May's problem lies in the fact that leavers wanted a referendum, and now cannot agree on what it means. That's not Cameron's fault - it's the fault of the people who put their hatred of the EU over and above the good of the country.
The sad thing is they continue to do so.
The Europe boil has been twitching for decades. Lots of PMs have had to live with it, Major especially and he just toughed it out. Nobody forced Cameron to call the ref nor did they force him to call it when he did. Nor did they force him to try and re negotiate with Merkel nor did they force him to front Remain. He made a political call and got it wrong.
Cameron only put it in the manifesto because he didn't think he'd win an outright majority and the Lib Dems would stop him. Little did he know that 'Clever George' would put paid to that - and end both their political careers.
I think history will judge Cameron's first premiership kindly, his second, not at all. Too soon to say how Mrs May will emerge....she had a rocky start....but is still there despite all the confident predictions.
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
The DUP have 10 MPs. For getting a deal through Parliament, the Prime Minister can probably recruit more than that from Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP. The DUP doesn't have a golden ticket.
NB the DUP still haven't been able to spend the money they notionally booked last time because of the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly. For all the criticism Theresa May got last June, she's effectively had their support for free.
A motion on special status for Northern Ireland was defeated by a single vote in 2016 when the DUP had a higher percentage of MLAs. If the Assembly were up and running, it's likely Carlotta would get her consent for the backstop.
What did people think of the LD Party Political Broadcast last night. Not sure if I was half asleep but I was thrown by it. Firstly a typically dull PPB, but surprisingly excluding anything to do with Brexit, then you think it is over and you get what looks like a trailer for a new drama on Brexit, which was quite effective. Only obvious, to me anyway (was I semi-conscious), that it was a continuation of the broadcast when the 'that was a PPB on behalf of the LDs' comes up.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs pn left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
Cameron called the referendum Cameron lost the referendum Cameron made no back up plans Cameron legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
Come, now. Many leavers wanted the referendum for decades, and helped bring down more than one Conservative leader. Despite all their massive intellect and skills, they could not agree on a course of action - and they still cannot.
May's problem lies in the fact that leavers wanted a referendum, and now cannot agree on what it means. That's not Cameron's fault - it's the fault of the people who put their hatred of the EU over and above the good of the country.
The sad thing is they continue to do so.
The Europe boil has been twitching for decades. Lots of PMs have had to live with it, Major especially and he just toughed it out. Nobody forced Cameron to call the ref nor did they force him to call it when he did. Nor did they force him to try and re negotiate with Merkel nor did they force him to front Remain. He made a political call and got it wrong.
On the biggest issue where Remain was weakest - immigration - like every UK government before him he had the choice of changing the social security rules to stop people just drawing down on the system. He chose not to do it.
"Nobody forced Cameron to call the ref nor did they force him to call it when he did."
Okay, now you're being really silly. Two Conservative MPs had moved over to UKIP, and others were threatening to. If you recall, there was *massive* grumbling on here that he didn't call one over the Lisbon Treaty (which would have been a pointless, ridiculous action), and then that he didn't hold one during the coalition. He had to call one after his 2015 win the Conservative Party would have utterly split.
To be clear: Cameron isn't blameless, but few people are in this mess (including myself, as I wanted a referendum). But leavers carry the biggest burden of shame - for they got what they wanted, and have f'all idea what to do next.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
As usual you do the PB jump straight to the extremes and paint everything in between the same colour. There were lots of different opinions both sides and the campaign was one set of dross against the other.
When the dust settles in a decade or so I wouldnt rulle out history being kinder to TM than it is to DC
It’ll be kinder to Dave. At least he never came out with this.
Just think your Leave vote may just have ultimately signed us up to Ever Closer Union and the single currency.
So funny if that happens.
If the country decides it wants the Euro and ECU so be it. thats to be welcomed , but it will be on the back of a vote not some backdoor sneak it round the edges political fix.
If a party wins a majority on such a manifesto it’ll happen.
The country won’t put up with long term economic disruption.
Remember the dementia tax.
It’ll be one of history’s great ironies if the 2016 vote enabled that.
No wonder Bernard Jenkin is moaning like a whore about backing Leave now.
the country has had long term economic disruption since 2008 and seems to be putting up with it. As for going back in, campaign on that basis if you wish but the terms of entry will be more prohibitive than before and we have seen that our current political class - remain or leave - just isnt up to the job of negotiating.
What did people think of the LD Party Political Broadcast last night. Not sure if I was half asleep but I was thrown by it. Firstly a typically dull PPB, but surprisingly excluding anything to do with Brexit, then you think it is over and you get what looks like a trailer for a new drama on Brexit, which was quite effective. Only obvious, to me anyway (was I semi-conscious), that it was a continuation of the broadcast when the 'that was a PPB on behalf of the LDs' comes up.
Probably just me!
I'm sure I saw a brief shot of Layla Moran MP walking along a canal bank with little Owen Jones!
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
The DUP have 10 MPs. For getting a deal through Parliament, the Prime Minister can probably recruit more than that from Labour, the Lib Dems and the SNP. The DUP doesn't have a golden ticket.
NB the DUP still haven't been able to spend the money they notionally booked last time because of the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly. For all the criticism Theresa May got last June, she's effectively had their support for free.
If the government is brought down, Jeremy Corbyn might well form the next government without a general election. I'm sure he'd try.
this is of course correct, the DUP to date havent had much to spend as theres nowhere to approve spending it
as for they will never shift, like SF they always do, but just wait for a payoff before they move
TM would have been better letting Nigel Dodds negotiate Brexit than David Davis
That would actually have been an inspired appointment. It would have caused complete meltdown all round, of course.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Very politically naive. Not sure you'd receive the expert political commentator visa.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs pn left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
Cameron called the referendum Cameron lost the referendum Cameron made no back up plans Cameron legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
Come, now. Many leavers wanted the referendum for decades, and helped bring down more than one Conservative leader. Despite all their massive intellect and skills, they could not agree on a course of action - and they still cannot.
May's problem lies in the fact that leavers wanted a referendum, and now cannot agree on what it means. That's not Cameron's fault - it's the fault of the people who put their hatred of the EU over and above the good of the country.
The sad thing is they continue to do so.
The Europe boil has been twitching for decades. Lots of PMs have had to live with it, Major especially and he just toughed it out. Nobody forced Cameron to call the ref nor did they force him to call it when he did. Nor did they force him to try and re negotiate with Merkel nor did they force him to front Remain. He made a political call and got it wrong.
On the biggest issue where Remain was weakest - immigration - like every UK government before him he had the choice of changing the social security rules to stop people just drawing down on the system. He chose not to do it.
"Nobody forced Cameron to call the ref nor did they force him to call it when he did."
Okay, now you're being really silly. Two Conservative MPs had moved over to UKIP, and others were threatening to. If you recall, there was *massive* grumbling on here that he didn't call one over the Lisbon Treaty (which would have been a pointless, ridiculous action), and then that he didn't hold one during the coalition. He had to call one after his 2015 win the Conservative Party would have utterly split.
To be clear: Cameron isn't blameless, but few people are in this mess (including myself, as I wanted a referendum). But leavers carry the biggest burden of shame - for they got what they wanted, and have f'all idea what to do next.
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
If the government is brought down, Jeremy Corbyn might well form the next government without a general election. I'm sure he'd try.
He only has the numbers if he uses Diane Abbott's calculator.
Brexit is happening, May is going. Next PM will be Hunt or Gove.
Still 6 months of knicker wetting by remainers who think they have a chance of stopping it based on the Kabuki theatre of the negotiations. I feel a bit sorry for them thinking there is still hope.
If the government is brought down, the current Parliamentary numbers will no longer apply. There will by definition be at least one group of MPs (and in all probability more than one) that can no longer be relied upon to sustain the present arrangements. Given that Jeremy Corbyn was arguing last June that he ought to be given a go, it is scarcely conceivable that he wouldn't have a crack at forming a minority government in such circumstances. Given that the Conservative party would be in chaos, it might well suit them to abstain and let him do so while they conduct their purges.
What did people think of the LD Party Political Broadcast last night. Not sure if I was half asleep but I was thrown by it. Firstly a typically dull PPB, but surprisingly excluding anything to do with Brexit, then you think it is over and you get what looks like a trailer for a new drama on Brexit, which was quite effective. Only obvious, to me anyway (was I semi-conscious), that it was a continuation of the broadcast when the 'that was a PPB on behalf of the LDs' comes up.
Probably just me!
Bizarre. First two thirds 'govt not focussing on what matters and just Brexit', final third 'Anna Wintour as Theresa May lets vote again on Brexit'
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Very politically naive. Not sure you'd receive the expert political commentator visa.
Wasn’t David Davis a prominent Leaver? And SoS for Leaving!
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
The EU's negotiating guidelines that were written when Enda Kenny was still there made Northern Ireland a phase one issue and said:
"In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order."
What did people think of the LD Party Political Broadcast last night. Not sure if I was half asleep but I was thrown by it. Firstly a typically dull PPB, but surprisingly excluding anything to do with Brexit, then you think it is over and you get what looks like a trailer for a new drama on Brexit, which was quite effective. Only obvious, to me anyway (was I semi-conscious), that it was a continuation of the broadcast when the 'that was a PPB on behalf of the LDs' comes up.
Probably just me!
I thought it was quite bizarre. The first part was wishy wash guff and then the second part was just odd. I was thinking how the actress looked nothing like Theresa May. For me it reinforces that the LDs are now EU-KIP
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Very politically naive. Not sure you'd receive the expert political commentator visa.
Well if you have an analysis then go for it. But simply implying a superior position is the hallmark of the elitst attitude that lost the referendum...
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs pn left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers , not Cameron. Leavers.
Cameron ca legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
Come, now. Many leavers wanted the referendum for decades, and helped bring down more than one Conservative leader. Despite all their massive intellect and skills, they could not agree on a course of action - and the country.
The sad thing is they continue to do so.
The Europe boil has been twitching for decades. Lots ot wrong.
On the biggest issue where Remain to do it.
"Nobody forced Cameron to call the ref nor did they force him to call it when he did."
Okay, now you're being really silly. Two Conservative MPs had moved over to UKIP, and others were threatening to. If you recall, there was *massive* grumbling on here that he didn't call one over the Lisbon Treaty (which would have been a pointless, ridiculous action), and then that he didn't hold one during the coalition. He had to call one after his 2015 win the Conservative Party would have utterly split.
To be clear: Cameron isn't blameless, but few people are in this mess (including myself, as I wanted a referendum). But leavers carry the biggest burden of shame - for they got what they wanted, and have f'all idea what to do next.
Hows that silly ?
Cameron had been open about moving to the centre ground, where presumably he expected more votes and seats this was his stragey . His response to his right wingers was fk off and join UKIP, they followed his advice. It was stupid advice as only broad churches win elections you only win elections in the centre if you keep the rest of your party on board. Unfortunately to his own detriment Cameron wasnt a good party manager.
As for the referendum there were loads of ways he could have framed it, Unlike you I think he should have held a Lisbon election post event since it would at least have strengthened his hand in any future EU discussions while also allowingpeople let off steam. imo wed still be in the EU if he had.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Very politically naive. Not sure you'd receive the expert political commentator visa.
Wasn’t David Davis a prominent Leaver? And SoS for Leaving!
Yes, good point. He told May not to agree to the EU sequencing of talks, he told het not to offer the momey, he told her not to agree the backstop and he planned an FTA exit. Very sensible chap. No wonder he had to resign when he realised that the Remainer PM was not listening to any of his advice, as he has made clear. That really confirms my point. Ta!
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs political skills I alsways retain a huge amount of sympathy for her given the shit hand Cameron left his successor
You Leavers said Brexit would be easy.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
Brexit is easy. We wasted endless time trying to cherry pick parts of the SM and CU to appease the remainers when we should have just insisted on a FTA from the start.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Very politically naive. Not sure you'd receive the expert political commentator visa.
Wasn’t David Davis a prominent Leaver? And SoS for Leaving!
Yes, but Theresa sidelined him from the start (as she's now doing with Raab) - Surely we can all agree that with this "negotiation" (which has never been a negotiation in any meaningful sense) it's May, Robbins and Hammond who have been calling the shots from the very start?
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
"In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order."
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
I have no sympathy for May. She has done a poor job negotiating because she never believed in Brexit. In which case, she should never have put her hand up for the job. The NI backstop was one of the single biggest mistakes ever made by a British PM.
Now, question for you. You have supported Chequers but lets take May at her word (!) - if the EU won't drop the NI backstop that she has said she would never sign and she therefore elects for No Deal, would you support that?
Of course you have no sympathy with TM. You just want us to crash out on your ultra hard brexit and trash UK jobs including my families
Of course I will support any deal TM brings back but no way will I support no deal, I would betray my family
Cameron had been open about moving to the centre ground, where presumably he expected more votes and seats this was his stragey . His response to his right wingers was fk off and join UKIP, they followed his advice. It was stupid advice as only broad churches win elections you only win elections in the centre if you keep the rest of your party on board. Unfortunately to his own detriment Cameron wasnt a good party manager.
That's not entirely accurate. Cameron welcomed ex-UKIP defectors back into the party and took the Tories out of the EPP. He did a lot to become a party welcoming to hard-Eurosceptics, even tolerating members of his cabinet advocating Brexit before the referendum pledge and well before the defection of Carswell.
As for the referendum there were loads of ways he could have framed it, Unlike you I think he should have held a Lisbon election post event since it would at least have strengthened his hand in any future EU discussions while also allowingpeople let off steam. imo wed still be in the EU if he had.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
The EU's negotiating guidelines that were written when Enda Kenny was still there made Northern Ireland a phase one issue and said:
"In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order."
Nothing has changed, to coin a phrase.
What??? That is the recipie for a soft MaxFac border. Which, as you should know, he was busy negotiating with the UK before Varadkar came along.
If you bothered to check, Barnier signed off the NI chapter as ‘complete’ in October 2017 - it was the money that was outstanding at that time. Dont’t rewrite history- we have the EU to do that for us.
Parliament can't agree a version of "Chequers" that Brussels will agree to Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
My guess is that the UK government will eventually blink. Some Leavers (eg @Casino_Royale) will choose to treat this as a compromise. Most will hate it. In the end it would be voted through, possibly with the help of rebel Labour votes, dividing the Conservative party perhaps irreparably. So there's always an upside.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
If the government is brought down, Jeremy Corbyn might well form the next government without a general election. I'm sure he'd try.
He only has the numbers if he uses Diane Abbott's calculator.
Brexit is happening, May is going. Next PM will be Hunt or Gove.
Still 6 months of knicker wetting by remainers who think they have a chance of stopping it based on the Kabuki theatre of the negotiations. I feel a bit sorry for them thinking there is still hope.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
I have no sympathy for May. She has done a poor job negotiating because she never believed in Brexit. In which case, she should never have put her hand up for the job. The NI backstop was one of the single biggest mistakes ever made by a British PM.
Now, question for you. You have supported Chequers but lets take May at her word (!) - if the EU won't drop the NI backstop that she has said she would never sign and she therefore elects for No Deal, would you support that?
Of course you have no sympathy with TM. You just want us to crash out on your ultra hard brexit and trash UK jobs including my families
Of course I will support any deal TM brings back but no way will I support no deal, I would betray my family
Actually I asked if you would support May if she comes back and declares No Deal?
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
The EU's negotiating guidelines that were written when Enda Kenny was still there made Northern Ireland a phase one issue and said:
"In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order."
Nothing has changed, to coin a phrase.
What??? That is the recipie for a soft MaxFac border. Which, as you should know, he was busy negotiating with the UK before Varadkar came along.
If you bothered to check, Barnier signed off the NI chapter as ‘complete’ in October 2017 - it was the money that was outstanding at that time. Dont’t rewrite history- we have the EU to do that for us.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
I have no sympathy for May. She has done a poor job negotiating because she never believed in Brexit. In which case, she should never have put her hand up for the job. The NI backstop was one of the single biggest mistakes ever made by a British PM.
Now, question for you. You have supported Chequers but lets take May at her word (!) - if the EU won't drop the NI backstop that she has said she would never sign and she therefore elects for No Deal, would you support that?
Of course you have no sympathy with TM. You just want us to crash out on your ultra hard brexit and trash UK jobs including my families
Of course I will support any deal TM brings back but no way will I support no deal, I would betray my family
Yes, the now daily PB spectacle of deranged ideologues wishing to visit economic chaos on Britain while pontificating from their safe house in Australia is rather unedifying,
What did people think of the LD Party Political Broadcast last night. Not sure if I was half asleep but I was thrown by it. Firstly a typically dull PPB, but surprisingly excluding anything to do with Brexit, then you think it is over and you get what looks like a trailer for a new drama on Brexit, which was quite effective. Only obvious, to me anyway (was I semi-conscious), that it was a continuation of the broadcast when the 'that was a PPB on behalf of the LDs' comes up.
Probably just me!
I thought it was quite bizarre. The first part was wishy wash guff and then the second part was just odd. I was thinking how the actress looked nothing like Theresa May. For me it reinforces that the LDs are now EU-KIP
Re the first part - yep.
That struck me re the actress; again making me feel like it was a trailer for some sort of semi related drama. It was only after, that it struck me the relevance of the shaking hands with the people wearing purple and red rosettes. My immediate thought was you don't wear rosettes outside of elections, then when I realised it was still the PPB it made sense.
If the UK blink what is going to stop the DUP bringing down the Govt? They will not lose their seats in GE and Corbyn is not going to win. They would get a new PM (probably a hung parliament again, so more money for them) and the backstop will be finished.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
If the government is brought down, Jeremy Corbyn might well form the next government without a general election. I'm sure he'd try.
He only has the numbers if he uses Diane Abbott's calculator.
Brexit is happening, May is going. Next PM will be Hunt or Gove.
Still 6 months of knicker wetting by remainers who think they have a chance of stopping it based on the Kabuki theatre of the negotiations. I feel a bit sorry for them thinking there is still hope.
If the government is brought down, .
If my auntie had baws she'd be my uncle.
No appetite for a GE from the Con party. None.
PM out yes. Govt out - no.
Talk me through your mechanics for this, with especial reference to the Fixed Term Parliament Act and the Conservative leadership election rules.
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
The EU's negotiating guidelines that were written when Enda Kenny was still there made Northern Ireland a phase one issue and said:
"In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order."
Nothing has changed, to coin a phrase.
What??? That is the recipie for a soft MaxFac border. Which, as you should know, he was busy negotiating with the UK before Varadkar came along.
If you bothered to check, Barnier signed off the NI chapter as ‘complete’ in October 2017 - it was the money that was outstanding at that time. Dont’t rewrite history- we have the EU to do that for us.
Yes, and it included the backstop.
No, the backstop was not included. This arrived in December, just as May was busy selling out on the money, If you recall she tried to sell out on it immediately to get her headlines, but Arlene stopped her. There was no backstop text before that - it was just a try on and May fell for it.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
While not impressed by TMs pn left his successor
Surely "the shit hand leavers have left" ?
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
Cameron called the referendum Cameron lost the referendum Cameron made no back up plans Cameron legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
Come, now. Many leavers wanted the referendum for decades, and helped bring down more than one Conservative leader. Despite all their massive intellect and skills, they could not agree on a course of action - and they still cannot.
May's problem lies in the fact that leavers wanted a referendum, and now cannot agree on what it means. That's not Cameron's fault - it's the fault of the people who put their hatred of the EU over and above the good of the country.
The sad thing is they continue to do so.
.
"Nobody forced Cameron to call the ref nor did they force him to call it when he did."
Okay, now you're being really silly. Two Conservative MPs had moved over to UKIP, and others were threatening to. If you recall, there was *massive* grumbling on here that he didn't call one over the Lisbon Treaty (which would have been a pointless, ridiculous action), and then that he didn't hold one during the coalition. He had to call one after his 2015 win the Conservative Party would have utterly split.
To be clear: Cameron isn't blameless, but few people are in this mess (including myself, as I wanted a referendum). But leavers carry the biggest burden of shame - for they got what they wanted, and have f'all idea what to do next.
Speaking for myself, I'm pretty pleased that Cameron called the referendum, and pretty pleased with the result.
Farage and Boulton having a ding dong on Sky and it is becoming just such a turn off
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
I have no sympathy for May. She has done a poor job negotiating because she never believed in Brexit. In which case, she should never have put her hand up for the job. The NI backstop was one of the single biggest mistakes ever made by a British PM.
Now, question for you. You have supported Chequers but lets take May at her word (!) - if the EU won't drop the NI backstop that she has said she would never sign and she therefore elects for No Deal, would you support that?
Of course you have no sympathy with TM. You just want us to crash out on your ultra hard brexit and trash UK jobs including my families
Of course I will support any deal TM brings back but no way will I support no deal, I would betray my family
Actually I asked if you would support May if she comes back and declares No Deal?
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
The EU's negotiating guidelines that were written when Enda Kenny was still there made Northern Ireland a phase one issue and said:
"In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order."
Nothing has changed, to coin a phrase.
What??? That is the recipie for a soft MaxFac border. Which, as you should know, he was busy negotiating with the UK before Varadkar came along.
If you bothered to check, Barnier signed off the NI chapter as ‘complete’ in October 2017 - it was the money that was outstanding at that time. Dont’t rewrite history- we have the EU to do that for us.
Yes, and it included the backstop.
No, the backstop was not included. This arrived in December, just as May was busy selling out on the money, If you recall she tried to sell out on it immediately to get her headlines, but Arlene stopped her. There was no backstop text before that - it was just a try on and May fell for it.
There was no public text of anything until December, but the principles had been under discussion well before then. If you want to point to the moment of failure from your perspective isn't not the backstop itself but the commitment to no physical infrastructure which rules out even MaxFac.
Off topic, I find that I will be in Birmingham for much of next week, not on party conference business. Would I be correct in guessing that a fair number of pbers will be there also?
Comments
if chickeny runaway Dave had stayed in post they would have had a good chance of making it fly and probably scrape over the line
May will agree a backstop that will allow the EU to offer a FTA after Brexit but force us to accept all EU regulations as well - or they will simply say that the backstop needs to come into force. That is what the backstop is for, and why it should have been rejected.
According to three senior officials from the U.K. and EU27, Theresa May’s team are exploring ways to insert the “consent principle” into the EU’s proposed Northern Ireland backstop — the insurance plan that is intended to avoid a hard border in all circumstances.
“There will have to be some democratic consent (a key element of the Good Friday Agreement),” said one senior U.K. official.
A second official said: “Under the EU’s version of the protocol, it would mean Northern Ireland accepting the EU’s rules without any democratic say. There’s a problem of democratic oversight. You need some kind of democratic anchor if parts of the protocol ever come into force.”
https://www.politico.eu/article/theresa-may-irish-border-brexit-assault-on-eu-demands/
"Labour calls for ban on gambling ads during live events"
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-45574180
Emmanuel Macron has appealed to his fellow EU leaders to maintain their tough approach to Brexit in response to the British prime minister’s demand for compromise at the end of a late dinner at the opening of an EU summit.
I was hoping you would surprise me again and accept Osborne was the Hannibal Barca of our times
May specifically ruled out a second vote in her comments at dinner. But Babis told the BBC Radio 4’s Today programme: “We hope that finally we will reach a deal but I am very unhappy that the UK is leaving, so it would be better maybe to make another referendum and maybe the people in the meantime could change their view.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/20/macron-urges-eu-leaders-to-stand-firm-against-theresa-may-brexit?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Maybe we should weigh in on the internal politics of other member states?
Am I right in recalling that Gordon Brown was against this, and managed to stop the mega-casinos Labour wanted?
Blair said Brown’s decision to scrap the Manchester plans, which would have created 3,500 jobs, were ‘the worst form of puritanism’. The former PM said his successor’s decision was a ‘partisan’ and ‘ineffectual’ gesture under pressure from the church and right-wing press. Mr Blair’s attack – in his controversial new autobiography, A Journey – threatens to reopen wounds in the Labour party over the issue.
https://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/local-news/tony-blairs-fury-at-gordon-brown-897914
More important to address, after the machines, are the online bookies’ customer profiling operations.
"Romania has overtaken the Republic of Ireland and India to move from fourth to second most-common non-British nationality in the UK, the Office for National Statistics (ONS) found."
You'd better show that to Keith Vaz, he's still waiting at Heathrow to welcome the second one.
That epitomises politicians, they're always willing to give you the benefit of their ignorance and certainty, and never apologising when it's exposed. Hence the reason Project Fear failed.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moroccan_Western_Sahara_Wall
https://twitter.com/EdConwaySky/status/1042698962933833734
Of course he does. He sees Britain’s departure as the best way of increasing French influence in the EU. If he succeeds, it will likely make the EU an even more unattractive organisation to rejoin in future. The Eurosceptics focus on Germany’s failings has tended to obscure the fact that it is the French conception of the state which has strongly influenced how the EU operates and which is so at odds with the British approach.
Constant attacks on TM from all sides must be switching so many people off
Indeed has any Prime Minister ever had such a difficult task and I believe the public may well have an increasing admiration and trust in her not mirrored by those so into politics including those of us on this forum
After all someone has to do it and no one wants it until the hard part is done
https://twitter.com/ONS/status/1042701001596317697
Building more houses may not help the issue, but we do need a solution. Unfortunately a decrease in house prices is also politically fraught.
Leavers are to blame here. Not May, not Cameron. Leavers.
And I made the complementary point that there is plenty of housing, it is the affordability that is critical and which poses the problem. Developers' costs are now, on account of the housing bubble of past decades, too high to be able to sell on their stock at affordable prices.
Parliament can't agree a version of the GFA that the DUP/Irish government can agree to
Parliament can't agree to let no deal happen
All are politically impossible. Can't get a deal through Brussels that would get through the Tory party. Can't agree to this morning's Irish Sea border without losing the DUP/ERG. I expect Parliament to vote to compel HMG to find a position that avoids crash Brexit despite also denying all the options available to do so.
A constitutional crisis of massive proportions. May will come back from the November summit having run out of tenable options - can't accept no deal, can't agree a deal. A General Election as cover to postpone A50 date feels increasingly inevitable. Question is who will be HMG at the point the election is triggered - and what triggers it. Failure of a government to win a confidence vote in the 2 weeks set out in the FTPA?
Cameron lost the referendum
Cameron made no back up plans
Cameron legged it
cant see how you can say thats either the fault of either May or the voters.
That we held all the aces and that they needed us more.
That German companies would force Merkel and the EU to give us a good deal.
Remember when people said no deal was just Project Fear.
I think there's a difference between saying this and saying "I hope Trump loses to Hillary".
That's all anyone would care about or they might very likely re-elect the Cons even if they present a no deal/WTO in their manifesto.
But I don't think it will come to that. If I had to guess who will cave in terms of DUP vs hard border I think there will be enough of a fudge that the DUP will accept it (£££ plus other administrative bullshit). I mean if they really want to be aligned what's with the whole abortion thing?
Now, question for you. You have supported Chequers but lets take May at her word (!) - if the EU won't drop the NI backstop that she has said she would never sign and she therefore elects for No Deal, would you support that?
May's problem lies in the fact that leavers wanted a referendum, and now cannot agree on what it means. That's not Cameron's fault - it's the fault of the people who put their hatred of the EU over and above the good of the country.
The sad thing is they continue to do so.
When the dust settles in a decade or so I wouldnt rulle out history being kinder to TM than it is to DC
The only problem has been the backstop. This was never even raised by Barnier until chancer Varadkhar came along and the wanted to see whether May would stand up to them and give them an absolute gift. She did. They probably couldn't believe it and it made them realise that if she was put under pressure she would cave. So they just kept going.
All May had to do is walk away from talks in December and refuse to come back until the backstop was off the agenda. The EU would have backed down and CETA would be agreed by now.
No matter how much you try, the facts are not going to go away - it is you Remainers who have been in charge of Brexit and it is you who have screwed it up. Don't worry, when the shit hits the fan the Leavers will take over and fix it for you.
Evidence suggests she's just crap and will screw up any task put in front of her.
https://twitter.com/daviddavismp/status/695208361625796608?s=21
https://twitter.com/andyrome64/status/898306913611300866?s=21
Just think your Leave vote may just have ultimately signed us up to Ever Closer Union and the single currency.
So funny if that happens.
It might be, probably is, entirely wishful thinking, but it's absurd to say that he doesn't have every right to express the opinion.
And I don't think the Czechs (and also the Maltese, who made similar comments), are under any illusion that they will influence UK opinion in favour of a second referendum.
What is far more objectionable is Macron's unbending opposition to any form of compromise. He is a mirror image of the Tory right, in this respect.
How many people have deceived themselves that the DUP were bluffing? They don't bluff.
On the biggest issue where Remain was weakest - immigration - like every UK government before him he had the choice of changing the social security rules to stop people just drawing down on the system. He chose not to do it.
Robert proved yesterday that you’re talking shite repeatedly.
NB the DUP still haven't been able to spend the money they notionally booked last time because of the suspension of the Northern Ireland Assembly. For all the criticism Theresa May got last June, she's effectively had their support for free.
If the government is brought down, Jeremy Corbyn might well form the next government without a general election. I'm sure he'd try.
When stood for the leadership it was really about holding on to her job as home secretary within a Johnson government.
She, like the rest of us, could never have envisioned Boris and Gove would blow themselves up like they did leading her holding the baby...
"This is of course a matter for the British government and people. Were they to decide to Remain in the EU after a second referendum I for one would welcome that."
The country won’t put up with long term economic disruption.
Remember the dementia tax.
It’ll be one of history’s great ironies if the 2016 vote enabled that.
No wonder Bernard Jenkin is moaning like a whore about backing Leave now.
as for they will never shift, like SF they always do, but just wait for a payoff before they move
TM would have been better letting Nigel Dodds negotiate Brexit than David Davis
Brexit is happening, May is going. Next PM will be Hunt or Gove.
Still 6 months of knicker wetting by remainers who think they have a chance of stopping it based on the Kabuki theatre of the negotiations. I feel a bit sorry for them thinking there is still hope.
I think history will judge Cameron's first premiership kindly, his second, not at all. Too soon to say how Mrs May will emerge....she had a rocky start....but is still there despite all the confident predictions.
Probably just me!
Okay, now you're being really silly. Two Conservative MPs had moved over to UKIP, and others were threatening to. If you recall, there was *massive* grumbling on here that he didn't call one over the Lisbon Treaty (which would have been a pointless, ridiculous action), and then that he didn't hold one during the coalition. He had to call one after his 2015 win the Conservative Party would have utterly split.
To be clear: Cameron isn't blameless, but few people are in this mess (including myself, as I wanted a referendum). But leavers carry the biggest burden of shame - for they got what they wanted, and have f'all idea what to do next.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b0bkgtzm/party-political-broadcasts-liberal-democrats-19092018
"In view of the unique circumstances on the island of Ireland, flexible and imaginative solutions will be required, including with the aim of avoiding a hard border, while respecting the integrity of the Union legal order."
Nothing has changed, to coin a phrase.
Cameron had been open about moving to the centre ground, where presumably he expected more votes and seats this was his stragey . His response to his right wingers was fk off and join UKIP, they followed his advice. It was stupid advice as only broad churches win elections you only win elections in the centre if you keep the rest of your party on board. Unfortunately to his own detriment Cameron wasnt a good party manager.
As for the referendum there were loads of ways he could have framed it, Unlike you I think he should have held a Lisbon election post event since it would at least have strengthened his hand in any future EU discussions while also allowingpeople let off steam. imo wed still be in the EU if he had.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2018-09-17/irish-said-to-face-eu-tax-pressure-in-return-for-brexit-support
Of course I will support any deal TM brings back but no way will I support no deal, I would betray my family
If you bothered to check, Barnier signed off the NI chapter as ‘complete’ in October 2017 - it was the money that was outstanding at that time. Dont’t rewrite history- we have the EU to do that for us.
No appetite for a GE from the Con party. None.
PM out yes. Govt out - no.
That struck me re the actress; again making me feel like it was a trailer for some sort of semi related drama. It was only after, that it struck me the relevance of the shaking hands with the people wearing purple and red rosettes. My immediate thought was you don't wear rosettes outside of elections, then when I realised it was still the PPB it made sense.