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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Daily Mail’s change of tone Brexit should help Mrs May sel

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  • I can't help feeling that it would have been a lot less trouble for Paul Manafort to have registered as a lobbyist and paid the 37% tax on his foreign income, all things considered.

    Taxes are for plebs.

    Mr Manafort has very expensive fashion tastes.
  • I can't help feeling that it would have been a lot less trouble for Paul Manafort to have registered as a lobbyist and paid the 37% tax on his foreign income, all things considered.

    Taxes are for plebs.

    Mr Manafort has very expensive fashion tastes.
    Too right. The court document lists $849,215 of transfers to Alan Couture, NY.
  • I can't help feeling that it would have been a lot less trouble for Paul Manafort to have registered as a lobbyist and paid the 37% tax on his foreign income, all things considered.

    Taxes are for plebs.

    Mr Manafort has very expensive fashion tastes.
    Too right. The court document lists $849,215 of transfers to Alan Couture, NY.
    You should see my latest suit*.

    I could quite easily be mistaken for a Swiss Guard.

    *I've not ordered it yet.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    murali_s said:

    Love it!

    The biggest c*nt in British politics!
    Really murali, you may have your faults but I think you're selling yourself a bit short there.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,176
    No mention of the High Court's ruling on the Electoral Commission on tonight's Six O'Clock News. I see the EC have come out fighting:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45519676

    The Commission's chief executive Claire Bassett said: "The High Court has not ruled on the advice we gave to Vote Leave. Our advice was generic and covered hypothetical scenarios.

    "At no point did we give any advice or discuss payments to Aggregate IQ.

    "Suggestions made otherwise today on social media are categorically untrue.

    "Put simply, today's ruling states that donations from one campaign group to another are lawful, but that those donations must be declared as expenditure by the person or campaign group making the donation, if it is for a specific purpose. This is something that Vote Leave did not do."
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    They are patriots trying to stop the Brexit traitors that are the ERG.
    Look at it this way - no one in govt is laying groundwork in case the whole process has to stop. At least this bunch are asking questions and finding out positions. If Brexit grinds to a halt, the information gleaned by this lot's activities might actually be very helpful.

    Consider it a backstop.....
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    tlg86 said:

    No mention of the High Court's ruling on the Electoral Commission on tonight's Six O'Clock News. I see the EC have come out fighting:

    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45519676

    The Commission's chief executive Claire Bassett said: "The High Court has not ruled on the advice we gave to Vote Leave. Our advice was generic and covered hypothetical scenarios.

    "At no point did we give any advice or discuss payments to Aggregate IQ.

    "Suggestions made otherwise today on social media are categorically untrue.

    "Put simply, today's ruling states that donations from one campaign group to another are lawful, but that those donations must be declared as expenditure by the person or campaign group making the donation, if it is for a specific purpose. This is something that Vote Leave did not do."

    So their generic advice was crap? Good to know. :D
  • Winning with the Jews....

    More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/more-than-85-per-cent-of-british-jews-think-jeremy-corbyn-is-antisemitic-1.469654
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Winning with the Jews....

    More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/more-than-85-per-cent-of-british-jews-think-jeremy-corbyn-is-antisemitic-1.469654

    The fact that 14% still want to vote for him reminds me of the Afro-Carribean voter in Leicester who hated Muslims so much he voted for the BNP.
  • ydoethur said:

    Winning with the Jews....

    More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/more-than-85-per-cent-of-british-jews-think-jeremy-corbyn-is-antisemitic-1.469654

    The fact that 14% still want to vote for him reminds me of the Afro-Carribean voter in Leicester who hated Muslims so much he voted for the BNP.
    It might not be 14%, you might not think Jezza antisemitic and still not vote Labour and vice versa i.e. your local Labour MP is wonderful.
  • Now the judges agree – the vote for Brexit was clearly tainted - Jolyon Maugham

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/14/judges-brexit-vote-eu-referendum-vote-leave

    Well that's one opinion...
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293
    The collapse in the Daily Mail's circulation under Geordie Greig will be entertaining...
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    ydoethur said:

    Winning with the Jews....

    More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/more-than-85-per-cent-of-british-jews-think-jeremy-corbyn-is-antisemitic-1.469654

    The fact that 14% still want to vote for him reminds me of the Afro-Carribean voter in Leicester who hated Muslims so much he voted for the BNP.
    Where did you get 14% wanting to vote for him?
  • A trade union leader has been recorded suggesting that Israel "created" the anti-Semitism row in the Labour Party.

    In a recording published by the Independent, PCS general secretary Mark Serwotka suggested the country had created the story to hide what he called its own "atrocities".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45517094
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,293

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Good luck. Hope everything goes well for you. :)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    I can't help feeling that it would have been a lot less trouble for Paul Manafort to have registered as a lobbyist and paid the 37% tax on his foreign income, all things considered.

    Once you’ve got used to lobbying for guys like Mobutu, paying tax probably seems beneath you.

    And when your ‘impulses’ drive you to blow $15k on something like this...
    https://nypost.com/2018/08/28/manaforts-15k-ostrich-jacket-was-an-impulse-purchase-tailor/
    ...your judgment is perhaps a touch impaired anyway.

    That might give even TSE pause.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Funny...

    The president’s legal team put out an initial statement that said: “the President did nothing wrong and Paul Manafort will tell the truth.” Minutes later, they put out a new statement that said simply: “the President did nothing wrong.”

    — Eamon Javers (@EamonJavers) September 14, 2018
  • GIN1138 said:

    The collapse in the Daily Mail's circulation under Geordie Greig will be entertaining...

    I rather think that is wishful thinking. It has lots of good features without the politics and is very successful on line. I very much doubt there will be any collapse
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    edited September 2018
    Nah, I can’t imagine Private Eye would ever print a photo like that! I mean, it was nearly 24 years ago.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    GIN1138 said:

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Good luck. Hope everything goes well for you. :)
    Seconded. Hope the recovery goes well Mr @Gallowgate.
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781

    A trade union leader has been recorded suggesting that Israel "created" the anti-Semitism row in the Labour Party.

    In a recording published by the Independent, PCS general secretary Mark Serwotka suggested the country had created the story to hide what he called its own "atrocities".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45517094

    Story was circulating this morning, and perhaps before.

    I can't see that anyone will worry about his discomfort, or (hopefully) demise. I'd be surprised if anyone greatly approves of him.

    This stupid, stupid, knee-jerk defending of the indefensible by Labour really can't help their cause. I'm a Tory, so not going to approve anyway, but the idea that a mainstream British political party could be equivocating on these matters beggars belief. The rather odd ArchCommie of Canterbury stuff makes this a pretty bad week for Labour.

    Not a great week for Vince and co.... or is it just Vince now? Many, many MPs queueing up to embrace him, but no sign of that happening.

    Mrs May? She really doesn't have good weeks, and yet somehow all those bad weeks when added up start to look like good months and good years. She perhaps should be happy that we no longer prosecute witches - she's starting to look like magic is involved.

    ('Witch': I'm not suggesting Mrs May is in any sense evil. For her I'm thinking of a much kinder interpretation, but of course the historical context is pretty harsh.)
  • FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    They are patriots trying to stop the Brexit traitors that are the ERG.
    Look at it this way - no one in govt is laying groundwork in case the whole process has to stop. At least this bunch are asking questions and finding out positions. If Brexit grinds to a halt, the information gleaned by this lot's activities might actually be very helpful.

    Consider it a backstop.....
    Here's some interesting extracts from that article:

    "It is a question of pressing them to keep open the extension of the article 50 process beyond the March deadline to give UK negotiators more time including to prepare legislation on a people’s vote."

    "Clegg is also trying to gather support for a new offer from Europe in the event of a further referendum. We cannot just turn the clock back to just before the 2016 referendum. There would have to be some changes of freedom of movement; we cannot just put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    Blair, who met Barnier on 18 July, said a large part of his meetings last week were to discuss a new common approach to immigration in the UK and EU.

    You cannot deal with this Brexit issue unless you deal with the questions of immigration and the anxieties that gave rise to it, he said. Since 2016 and the referendum, immigration is Europe’s problem. Today it is upending the politics of every single country in Europe every single one. There are lots of things we as the UK can do without displacing the basic principle of free movement.

    Clegg has also tried to explain how the UK could participate in the European parliamentary elections in May, and have MEPs leave later if necessary."
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Omnium said:

    A trade union leader has been recorded suggesting that Israel "created" the anti-Semitism row in the Labour Party.

    In a recording published by the Independent, PCS general secretary Mark Serwotka suggested the country had created the story to hide what he called its own "atrocities".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45517094

    Story was circulating this morning, and perhaps before.

    I can't see that anyone will worry about his discomfort, or (hopefully) demise. I'd be surprised if anyone greatly approves of him.

    This stupid, stupid, knee-jerk defending of the indefensible by Labour really can't help their cause. I'm a Tory, so not going to approve anyway, but the idea that a mainstream British political party could be equivocating on these matters beggars belief. The rather odd ArchCommie of Canterbury stuff makes this a pretty bad week for Labour.

    Not a great week for Vince and co.... or is it just Vince now? Many, many MPs queueing up to embrace him, but no sign of that happening.

    Mrs May? She really doesn't have good weeks, and yet somehow all those bad weeks when added up start to look like good months and good years. She perhaps should be happy that we no longer prosecute witches - she's starting to look like magic is involved.

    ('Witch': I'm not suggesting Mrs May is in any sense evil. For her I'm thinking of a much kinder interpretation, but of course the historical context is pretty harsh.)
    There are entirely legitimate (and necessary) criticisms to be made of the state of Israel; conspiracy theories to explain away evidence of anti-semetism in the Labour party don’t fall into that category.
  • Mark Carney announces that he expects a £16 billion bounce for the economy on a Chequers deal
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301

    Mark Carney announces that he expects a £16 billion bounce for the economy on a Chequers deal

    And the EU expect an £18bn bounced cheque in the absence of one ?
  • Nigelb said:

    Mark Carney announces that he expects a £16 billion bounce for the economy on a Chequers deal

    And the EU expect an £18bn bounced cheque in the absence of one ?
    I don't think you need to be Carney to predict an immediate uplift in the pound, stocks and investment when TM and the EU do the deal.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Nigelb said:

    Mark Carney announces that he expects a £16 billion bounce for the economy on a Chequers deal

    And the EU expect an £18bn bounced cheque in the absence of one ?
    I don't think you need to be Carney to predict an immediate uplift in the pound, stocks and investment when TM and the EU do the deal.
    There's probably a lot of pent up investment given the current uncertainty.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 63,159
    edited September 2018
    Sky just had misery Ed Conway explaining the 2008 crash and after his report who do Sky go to, David Blanchflower to give his take on things. Really, Blanchflower who failed on all his predictions
  • PaganPagan Posts: 259

    FPT, but more appropriate to this one:

    This is surprisingly interesting:

    TRIGGER WARNING: Leavers of a sensitive disposition should go to their designated Safe Space rather than click on the link.

    https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/sep/14/clegg-leads-pro-remain-grandees-on-diplomatic-mission-to-stop-brexit

    that line ups worth about 10% to Leave

    No - 20% - who do they think they are
    They are patriots trying to stop the Brexit traitors that are the ERG.
    Look at it this way - no one in govt is laying groundwork in case the whole process has to stop. At least this bunch are asking questions and finding out positions. If Brexit grinds to a halt, the information gleaned by this lot's activities might actually be very helpful.

    Consider it a backstop.....
    Here's some interesting extracts from that article:

    "It is a question of pressing them to keep open the extension of the article 50 process beyond the March deadline to give UK negotiators more time including to prepare legislation on a people’s vote."

    "Clegg is also trying to gather support for a new offer from Europe in the event of a further referendum. We cannot just turn the clock back to just before the 2016 referendum. There would have to be some changes of freedom of movement; we cannot just put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    Blair, who met Barnier on 18 July, said a large part of his meetings last week were to discuss a new common approach to immigration in the UK and EU.

    You cannot deal with this Brexit issue unless you deal with the questions of immigration and the anxieties that gave rise to it, he said. Since 2016 and the referendum, immigration is Europe’s problem. Today it is upending the politics of every single country in Europe every single one. There are lots of things we as the UK can do without displacing the basic principle of free movement.

    Clegg has also tried to explain how the UK could participate in the European parliamentary elections in May, and have MEPs leave later if necessary."
    Is it just me that can't believe the colossal arrogance of messrs Blair, Clegg and Major . Two of whom aren't even elected officials to presume to "negotiate" for us. Who asked them too? By what damn right do they do it. People would soon get arsey if I turned up in Brussels to tell Junkers and Barnier what the british wanted. They would tell me quite rightly it is not my place to do so.
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up market and/or a better area or even to London.
    Mortgage lender will collapse, so very unlikely.No-one is going to lend 70 LTV if prices are down 35% y-o-y
    If you have £400,000 equity in a £500,000 house you can buy an £800,000 house with a £400,000 mortgage, only 50% LTV.
    That is quite a lot of leverage in a falling market, with the banks liability protected by the householders eqjuity. I suspect a much better investment by the bank than the householder.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Pagan said:

    Look at it this way - no one in govt is laying groundwork in case the whole process has to stop. At least this bunch are asking questions and finding out positions. If Brexit grinds to a halt, the information gleaned by this lot's activities might actually be very helpful.

    Consider it a backstop.....

    Here's some interesting extracts from that article:

    "It is a question of pressing them to keep open the extension of the article 50 process beyond the March deadline to give UK negotiators more time including to prepare legislation on a people’s vote."

    "Clegg is also trying to gather support for a new offer from Europe in the event of a further referendum. We cannot just turn the clock back to just before the 2016 referendum. There would have to be some changes of freedom of movement; we cannot just put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    Blair, who met Barnier on 18 July, said a large part of his meetings last week were to discuss a new common approach to immigration in the UK and EU.

    You cannot deal with this Brexit issue unless you deal with the questions of immigration and the anxieties that gave rise to it, he said. Since 2016 and the referendum, immigration is Europe’s problem. Today it is upending the politics of every single country in Europe every single one. There are lots of things we as the UK can do without displacing the basic principle of free movement.

    Clegg has also tried to explain how the UK could participate in the European parliamentary elections in May, and have MEPs leave later if necessary."
    Is it just me that can't believe the colossal arrogance of messrs Blair, Clegg and Major . Two of whom aren't even elected officials to presume to "negotiate" for us. Who asked them too? By what damn right do they do it. People would soon get arsey if I turned up in Brussels to tell Junkers and Barnier what the british wanted. They would tell me quite rightly it is not my place to do so.
    We have a bunch of elected officials who are supposed to negotiate for us and have spent two years doing nothing of substance. It might not be [Clegg et al's] place to do so, but since no one else seems to be bothering they might as well fill the void

  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    Sky just had misery Ed Conway explaining the 2008 crash and after his report who do Sky go to, David Blanchflower to give his take on things. Really, Blanchflower who failed on all his predictions

    Have you considered other news programmes, Sky News doesn't sound good for your blood pressure!

    Though it is interesting that the Murdoch organisation is much more pro EU, as part of its wider media interests, than it is with its red top for British consumption. One almost wonders about that motivation of the Australian turned Septic.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,158
    edited September 2018
    Foxy said:

    Sky just had misery Ed Conway explaining the 2008 crash and after his report who do Sky go to, David Blanchflower to give his take on things. Really, Blanchflower who failed on all his predictions

    Have you considered other news programmes, Sky News doesn't sound good for your blood pressure!

    Though it is interesting that the Murdoch organisation is much more pro EU, as part of its wider media interests, than it is with its red top for British consumption. One almost wonders about that motivation of the Australian turned Septic.
    It isn't really that interesting. By all accounts, Murdoch doesn't really get involved in Sky News at all and never has, unlike his newspapers where the likes of the Sun have long been given guidance.
  • PaganPagan Posts: 259

    Pagan said:

    Look at it this way - no one in govt is laying groundwork in case the whole process has to stop. At least this bunch are asking questions and finding out positions. If Brexit grinds to a halt, the information gleaned by this lot's activities might actually be very helpful.

    Consider it a backstop.....

    Here's some interesting extracts from that article:

    "It is a question of pressing them to keep open the extension of the article 50 process beyond the March deadline to give UK negotiators more time including to prepare legislation on a people’s vote."

    "Clegg is also trying to gather support for a new offer from Europe in the event of a further referendum. We cannot just turn the clock back to just before the 2016 referendum. There would have to be some changes of freedom of movement; we cannot just put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    Blair, who met Barnier on 18 July, said a large part of his meetings last week were to discuss a new common approach to immigration in the UK and EU.

    You cannot deal with this Brexit issue unless you deal with the questions of immigration and the anxieties that gave rise to it, he said. Since 2016 and the referendum, immigration is Europe’s problem. Today it is upending the politics of every single country in Europe every single one. There are lots of things we as the UK can do without displacing the basic principle of free movement.

    Clegg has also tried to explain how the UK could participate in the European parliamentary elections in May, and have MEPs leave later if necessary."
    Is it just me that can't believe the colossal arrogance of messrs Blair, Clegg and Major . Two of whom aren't even elected officials to presume to "negotiate" for us. Who asked them too? By what damn right do they do it. People would soon get arsey if I turned up in Brussels to tell Junkers and Barnier what the british wanted. They would tell me quite rightly it is not my place to do so.
    We have a bunch of elected officials who are supposed to negotiate for us and have spent two years doing nothing of substance. It might not be [Clegg et al's] place to do so, but since no one else seems to be bothering they might as well fill the void

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy. They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU. I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    Yes I do agree our government hasnt been doing its job however
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    The Daily Mail backed Ken Clarke to be Tory leader in 2001 of course while the Sun and Daily Telegraph backed IDS so it has not always been averse to backing a more pro EU position.

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    Now the judges agree – the vote for Brexit was clearly tainted - Jolyon Maugham

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/14/judges-brexit-vote-eu-referendum-vote-leave

    Well that's one opinion...

    Maugham is hardly known as an unbiased commentator on these matters.

    Today doesn’t look like the Electoral Commission’s finest hour, they need to publish much more guidance on the operation of elections and referenda rather than just opining on what happened after the event. Any clarifications with political organisations during campaigns should also be made public, to ensure a level playing field.

    The Speaker, to whom the head of the Commission reports, needs to have a close look at whether it’s fit for purpose, before the next election.
  • Foxy said:

    Sky just had misery Ed Conway explaining the 2008 crash and after his report who do Sky go to, David Blanchflower to give his take on things. Really, Blanchflower who failed on all his predictions

    Have you considered other news programmes, Sky News doesn't sound good for your blood pressure!

    Though it is interesting that the Murdoch organisation is much more pro EU, as part of its wider media interests, than it is with its red top for British consumption. One almost wonders about that motivation of the Australian turned Septic.
    The good thing is I had my annual health check this week and passed my liver, kidney, blood pressure tests and my diabetes is controlled and I do not take medication for it.

    So I decided I could to carry on with Sky. It tends to be on most of the time though I do switch to BBC but it seems possessed with US politics, even having a beyond 100 days programme jointly from London and Washington, bizarre

    I did hear a story that Murdoch positioned Sky pro EU and left leaning to try to deflect attempts at his takeover, but then conspiracy theories are all the rage these days

  • Sandpit said:

    Now the judges agree – the vote for Brexit was clearly tainted - Jolyon Maugham

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/sep/14/judges-brexit-vote-eu-referendum-vote-leave

    Well that's one opinion...

    Maugham is hardly known as an unbiased commentator on these matters.

    Today doesn’t look like the Electoral Commission’s finest hour, they need to publish much more guidance on the operation of elections and referenda rather than just opining on what happened after the event. Any clarifications with political organisations during campaigns should also be made public, to ensure a level playing field.

    The Speaker, to whom the head of the Commission reports, needs to have a close look at whether it’s fit for purpose, before the next election.
    It is quite funny seeing Mr "I'll Sue Ya" blow his own feet off and now desperately spinning this as a victory. The amount of other people's money he has blown on legal action is quite incredible.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    If Labour vote down a May BINO deal they may then find they get squeezed with May succeeded by a hard Brexiteer as Tory leader uniting Leavers behind them and Labour Remainers moving to the LDs
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
  • Pagan said:

    Is it just me that can't believe the colossal arrogance of messrs Blair, Clegg and Major . Two of whom aren't even elected officials to presume to "negotiate" for us. Who asked them too? By what damn right do they do it. People would soon get arsey if I turned up in Brussels to tell Junkers and Barnier what the british wanted. They would tell me quite rightly it is not my place to do so.

    Two of whom? Which one is an elected official? Two are retired former Prime Ministers and one is an ex-MP who was ejected by the voters of Sheffield Hallam last year.
  • ydoethur said:

    Winning with the Jews....

    More than 85 per cent of British Jews think Jeremy Corbyn is antisemitic

    https://www.thejc.com/news/uk-news/more-than-85-per-cent-of-british-jews-think-jeremy-corbyn-is-antisemitic-1.469654

    The fact that 14% still want to vote for him reminds me of the Afro-Carribean voter in Leicester who hated Muslims so much he voted for the BNP.
    I take you point but it isn't really what the JC was saying. 86% of Jews believe, according to the poll, that Corbyn is anti-semitic but that doesn't imply the other 14% would necessarily vote Labour.

    You can quibble with the poll but no matter what gloss you put on it, that is a horrifying figure for Labour. You'd think the Party and/or Corbyn himself would respond vociferously, but seems not.

    Incidentally, the paper also carried today an excellent piece by Howard Jacobson and a full page cartoon by Marf (once of this parish) on the subject. Both are worth looking at if you can find a copy. (I got the last one on Hampstead High Street this morning.)

    As an aside, I noted that whilst Theresa May scored 2% on the anti-semite scale, Vince Cable scored 6%. Since there is absolutely no reason to think VC is any more anti-semitic than her, this small difference can safely be put down to the conservative element in the sample which would always vote blue rather than anything else, regardless of the topic. In other words, there are some for whom the whole schemozzle is a super wheeze to slag off Labour. That does not of course mean that the Party doesn't deserve it on this occasion and this topic. It does. But we on PB will always of course distinguish the substance from the tribalism, won't we?

    ;-)

  • HYUFD said:

    The Daily Mail backed Ken Clarke to be Tory leader in 2001 of course while the Sun and Daily Telegraph backed IDS so it has not always been averse to backing a more pro EU position.

    The difference today is the noticeable change over the last few days to supporting TM and not the ERG
  • Scott_P said:
    He will be gone someday but the sooner the better
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,208
    edited September 2018

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Looking forward to it, GG
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,237

    Anazina said:

    The new editor is clearly sticking up for his core constituency – the middle classes. A house price crash suits them not.

    A house price crash makes it easier to move up marker and/or a better area or even to London.
    Except if you now have negative equity...
  • PaganPagan Posts: 259

    Pagan said:

    Is it just me that can't believe the colossal arrogance of messrs Blair, Clegg and Major . Two of whom aren't even elected officials to presume to "negotiate" for us. Who asked them too? By what damn right do they do it. People would soon get arsey if I turned up in Brussels to tell Junkers and Barnier what the british wanted. They would tell me quite rightly it is not my place to do so.

    Two of whom? Which one is an elected official? Two are retired former Prime Ministers and one is an ex-MP who was ejected by the voters of Sheffield Hallam last year.
    For some reason I thought Major was still an mp
  • Scott_P said:
    It has been obvious for quite sometime and just affirms the opinion he is not suitable to be PM
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Best wishes for long and fruitful discussions on pizza toppings selected by AV...


  • Foxy said:

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Best wishes for long and fruitful discussions on pizza toppings selected by AV...


    I thought banana was now topical together with pineapple.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936
    Foxy said:

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Best wishes for long and fruitful discussions on pizza toppings selected by AV...


    Pineapple chunks, pineapple slices... the possibilities are endless.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Pagan said:

    Pagan said:

    Is it just me that can't believe the colossal arrogance of messrs Blair, Clegg and Major . Two of whom aren't even elected officials to presume to "negotiate" for us. Who asked them too? By what damn right do they do it. People would soon get arsey if I turned up in Brussels to tell Junkers and Barnier what the british wanted. They would tell me quite rightly it is not my place to do so.

    Two of whom? Which one is an elected official? Two are retired former Prime Ministers and one is an ex-MP who was ejected by the voters of Sheffield Hallam last year.
    For some reason I thought Major was still an mp
    Not since 2001.
  • RobD said:

    Foxy said:

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Best wishes for long and fruitful discussions on pizza toppings selected by AV...


    Pineapple chunks, pineapple slices... the possibilities are endless.
    You hurl chunks onto the pizza?
  • Foxy said:

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Best wishes for long and fruitful discussions on pizza toppings selected by AV...


    I thought banana was now topical together with pineapple.
    Banana and bacon pizza. Go really well together.
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469
    My girlfriend had a Dominoes pizza last night with pinapple and pepperoni. Yuck.

    Ex girlfriend?
  • Foxy said:

    I’ll be in hospital for up to 10 days so plenty of free time to argue about Brexit, pizza toppings and Palestine and Israel. :smiley:

    Best wishes for long and fruitful discussions on pizza toppings selected by AV...


    I thought banana was now topical together with pineapple.
    Banana and bacon pizza. Go really well together.
    Banana, pineapple , bacon are fine by me, it is just pizza is not on my menu.

    The only pizza I have enjoyed is one in Amalfi and one in Cortona
  • HYUFD said:
    It is called inching towards the deal. Got to string it out and make a drama about it though
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469
    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
  • HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:
    It is called inching towards the deal. Got to string it out and make a drama about it though
    The Government is slowly getting there, hopefully Parliament will do too
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Scott_P said:
    He will be gone someday but the sooner the better
    I look forward to the day that he and Boris both depart office.
  • Scott_P said:
    He will be gone someday but the sooner the better
    I look forward to the day that he and Boris both depart office.
    We are at one on this
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    If Clause IV is restored to the party's constitution I don't think any Blairite can with any credibility say Labour is still their party, it may be the final trigger for an SDP2
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    It is called inching towards the deal. Got to string it out and make a drama about it though
    The Government is slowly getting there, hopefully Parliament will do too
    I am quietly confident mps will act in the national interest when tne time comes
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    If Clause IV is restored to the party's constitution I don't think any Blairite can with any credibility say Labour is still their party, it may be the final trigger for an SDP2
    If I am reading it correctly it will be at their 2019 conference and the way things are I can see a split before then if Corbyn continues on his present pathway
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    edited September 2018
    Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
  • GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,469
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    With all the news recently about waiting times in hospitals, I have no doubt that one could be very succesfully campaining on a ‘blairite-lite’ platform highlighting the huge drop in waiting list time under New Labour.

  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:
    It is called inching towards the deal. Got to string it out and make a drama about it though
    The Government is slowly getting there, hopefully Parliament will do too
    I am quietly confident mps will act in the national interest when tne time comes
    I am more hopeful that certain but we will see
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    You underestimate the dislike the SNP have for labour
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    ...stuff ...

    Congrats on your return!
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    If Clause IV is restored to the party's constitution I don't think any Blairite can with any credibility say Labour is still their party, it may be the final trigger for an SDP2
    If I am reading it correctly it will be at their 2019 conference and the way things are I can see a split before then if Corbyn continues on his present pathway
    Corbyn voting for a No Deal Brexit and restoring Clause IV to the Labour Party constitution are certainly going to bring things to a head with his party's Blairite wing, accompanied as they are by deselections of the likes of Joan Ryan and Frank Field
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    You underestimate the dislike the SNP have for labour
    The SNP activists don't mind Corbyn so much, it is the Tories, the LDs and New Labour they hated. Though Sturgeon is more social democratic than socialist
  • Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
  • HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    With all the news recently about waiting times in hospitals, I have no doubt that one could be very succesfully campaining on a ‘blairite-lite’ platform highlighting the huge drop in waiting list time under New Labour.

    The problem is waiting times are dreadful in Wales (labour) and Scotland.(SNP). It needs a cross party solution but I am not holding my breath
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    With all the news recently about waiting times in hospitals, I have no doubt that one could be very succesfully campaining on a ‘blairite-lite’ platform highlighting the huge drop in waiting list time under New Labour.

    The LDs though are closest to the Blair legacy at the moment, which is ironic as by 2005 the LDs were more opposed to New Labour than the Tories
  • Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
    You're trolling us, right?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
    You're trolling us, right?
    It's no different from saying "people who believe in what I believe in should speak for Britain"
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
    You're trolling us, right?
    You would rather that the UK's two year silence on Brexit continues? Just sail off the cliff on March 29th?

    DO nothing until it is too late? That's your preferred approach and YOU ask if I'm trolling????

    Comedy gold!
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    Nah, I can’t imagine Private Eye would ever print a photo like that! I mean, it was nearly 24 years ago.
    The Jimmy Saville reference is a little dated...,
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Sandpit said:

    Nah, I can’t imagine Private Eye would ever print a photo like that! I mean, it was nearly 24 years ago.
    The Jimmy Saville reference is a little dated...,
  • FoxyFoxy Posts: 48,749
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
  • Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
    You're trolling us, right?
    You would rather that the UK's two year silence on Brexit continues? Just sail off the cliff on March 29th?

    DO nothing until it is too late? That's your preferred approach and YOU ask if I'm trolling????

    Comedy gold!
    You have absolutely no idea what my preferred option is. Clearly, you'll grab at any option that corresponds with your own ideas.
    But, seriously, Tony Blair? That's the best you can come up with? Now that really is comedy gold.!
  • SunnyJimSunnyJim Posts: 1,106


    We have a bunch of elected officials who are supposed to negotiate for us and have spent two years doing nothing of substance. It might not be [Clegg et al's] place to do so, but since no one else seems to be bothering they might as well fill the void



    I could imagine apologists for Vidkun Quisling would have used similar reasoning.
  • Pagan said:

    Look at it this way - no one in govt is laying groundwork in case the whole process has to stop. At least this bunch are asking questions and finding out positions. If Brexit grinds to a halt, the information gleaned by this lot's activities might actually be very helpful.

    Consider it a backstop.....

    Here's some interesting extracts from that article:

    "It is a question of pressing them to keep open the extension of the article 50 process beyond the March deadline to give UK negotiators more time including to prepare legislation on a people’s vote."

    "Clegg is also trying to gather support for a new offer from Europe in the event of a further referendum. We cannot just turn the clock back to just before the 2016 referendum. There would have to be some changes of freedom of movement; we cannot just put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    Blair, who met Barnier on 18 July, said a large part of his meetings last week were to discuss a new common approach to immigration in the UK and EU.

    You cannot deal with this Brexit issue unless you deal with the questions of immigration and the anxieties that gave rise to it, he said. Since 2016 and the referendum, immigration is Europe’s problem. Today it is upending the politics of every single country in Europe every single one. There are lots of things we as the UK can do without displacing the basic principle of free movement.

    Clegg has also tried to explain how the UK could participate in the European parliamentary elections in May, and have MEPs leave later if necessary."
    Is it just me that can't believe the colossal arrogance of messrs Blair, Clegg and Major . Two of whom aren't even elected officials to presume to "negotiate" for us. Who asked them too? By what damn right do they do it. People would soon get arsey if I turned up in Brussels to tell Junkers and Barnier what the british wanted. They would tell me quite rightly it is not my place to do so.
    We have a bunch of elected officials who are supposed to negotiate for us and have spent two years doing nothing of substance. It might not be [Clegg et al's] place to do so, but since no one else seems to be bothering they might as well fill the void
    "Nothing of substance" "the void" and "80% is agreed"

    Discuss,
  • Pagan said:

    Look at it this way - no one in govt is laying groundwork in case the whole process has to stop. At least this bunch are asking questions and finding out positions. If Brexit grinds to a halt, the information gleaned by this lot's activities might actually be very helpful.

    Consider it a backstop.....

    Here's some interesting extracts from that article:

    "It is a question of pressing them to keep open the extension of the article 50 process beyond the March deadline to give UK negotiators more time including to prepare legislation on a people’s vote."

    "Clegg is also trying to gather support for a new offer from Europe in the event of a further referendum. We cannot just turn the clock back to just before the 2016 referendum. There would have to be some changes of freedom of movement; we cannot just put Humpty Dumpty back together again.

    Blair, who met Barnier on 18 July, said a large part of his meetings last week were to discuss a new common approach to immigration in the UK and EU.

    You cannot deal with this Brexit issue unless you deal with the questions of immigration and the anxieties that gave rise to it, he said. Since 2016 and the referendum, immigration is Europe’s problem. Today it is upending the politics of every single country in Europe every single one. There are lots of things we as the UK can do without displacing the basic principle of free movement.

    Clegg has also tried to explain how the UK could participate in the European parliamentary elections in May, and have MEPs leave later if necessary."
    Is it just me that can't believe the colossal arrogance of messrs Blair, Clegg and Major . Two of whom aren't even elected officials to presume to "negotiate" for us. Who asked them too? By what damn right do they do it. People would soon get arsey if I turned up in Brussels to tell Junkers and Barnier what the british wanted. They would tell me quite rightly it is not my place to do so.
    We have a bunch of elected officials who are supposed to negotiate for us and have spent two years doing nothing of substance. It might not be [Clegg et al's] place to do so, but since no one else seems to be bothering they might as well fill the void
    "Nothing of substance" "the void" and "80% is agreed"

    Discuss,
    I believe that has moved to 85%
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Pagan said:

    But they are negotiating for the losing side for a start which shows not only arrogance on their part but a striking disdain for democracy.

    You can look at it that way if you wish, but you can also look at it that they are concerned that paralysis in the govt will result in a Hard/WTO crash Brexit and no one (except the swivel-eyed brigade) wants that. So, how to minimise a car-crash Brexit? Ask officials to consider the options beforehand. If Brexit fails or becomes BINO or an agreement is reached then no harm done....
    Pagan said:

    They should be told in no uncertain terms to shove off

    And leave no one to speak for Britain?
    Pagan said:

    and the fact the EU is cooperating with them tells us all we need to know about the EU.

    Yes. It tells us that the EU does not want car-crash Brexit either.
    Pagan said:

    I am sure remainers like yourself would soon complain if Boris, Gove and Farage went to negotiate as private individuals.

    It would not bother me. Look how effective they have been in their official capacity. I am sure that in their private capacity they would be no better.

    :D:D:D:D
    Anthony Charles Lynton Blair? Seriously?
    I would rather the govt spoke for us, but to date .....
    You're trolling us, right?
    You would rather that the UK's two year silence on Brexit continues? Just sail off the cliff on March 29th?

    DO nothing until it is too late? That's your preferred approach and YOU ask if I'm trolling????

    Comedy gold!
    You have absolutely no idea what my preferred option is. Clearly, you'll grab at any option that corresponds with your own ideas.
    But, seriously, Tony Blair? That's the best you can come up with? Now that really is comedy gold.!
    You are right, I have no idea what your preferred option is and frankly I do not really care. Blair is a sweaty slimeball IMO, but compared to the political pygmies in charge of either party he is probably a political giant. Even Major - Mr Dull & Grey - looks like a statesman these days.

    When yesterday's men look like the last hope it shows what a dire state we are in and I do care about avoid a bl**dy disaster for the country.
  • Matthew Parris: A second referendum could save us from disaster

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/a-second-referendum-could-save-us-from-disaster-nh0q97xj2

    You know I support TM getting a deal but if that failed or was voted down I would support a second referendum but I am far from certain how it would resolve anything, indeed it could make things worse

    One thing that has to happen - hard Brexit/WTO must be stopped by the HOC
    So if you support a second referendum if May's deal is defeated in Parliament, what do you think the question should be?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 123,206
    edited September 2018
    Foxy said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Corbynism prepares to deliver the final blow to New Labour and Blair's legacy in the party

    https://twitter.com/paulwaugh/status/1040673046649024513?s=20

    Very symbolic.
    Maybe wishful thinking but I feel this is just going to give ammunition to any future LD or Tory election campaign.
    And SNP
    The SNP and Corbynites both hate Blair, ironically he is probably now more popular in Cable's LDs and even with Cameroon Tories than with them
    It was opposition to Blairite warmongering that led to the electoral success in the nineties and loads of new members.

    Blair is not popular with LDs.
    Correction, Blair was not popular with LDs.

    However most of the leftwing, sandal wearing LDs who were part of the party when Charles Kennedy led it on a left of New Labour, anti Iraq War platform have now defected to Corbyn Labour.


    The LDs who remain under Vince Cable are economically centrist and pro EU, they more than Corbyn Labour or the Tories are the true carriers of the Blairite torch now of the 3 main UK wide parties
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 10,781
    Nigelb said:

    Omnium said:

    A trade union leader has been recorded suggesting that Israel "created" the anti-Semitism row in the Labour Party.

    In a recording published by the Independent, PCS general secretary Mark Serwotka suggested the country had created the story to hide what he called its own "atrocities".

    https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-45517094

    Story was circulating this morning, and perhaps before.

    I can't see that anyone will worry about his discomfort, or (hopefully) demise. I'd be surprised if anyone greatly approves of him.

    This stupid, stupid, knee-jerk defending of the indefensible by Labour really can't help their cause. I'm a Tory, so not going to approve anyway, but the idea that a mainstream British political party could be equivocating on these matters beggars belief. The rather odd ArchCommie of Canterbury stuff makes this a pretty bad week for Labour.

    Not a great week for Vince and co.... or is it just Vince now? Many, many MPs queueing up to embrace him, but no sign of that happening.

    Mrs May? She really doesn't have good weeks, and yet somehow all those bad weeks when added up start to look like good months and good years. She perhaps should be happy that we no longer prosecute witches - she's starting to look like magic is involved.

    ('Witch': I'm not suggesting Mrs May is in any sense evil. For her I'm thinking of a much kinder interpretation, but of course the historical context is pretty harsh.)
    There are entirely legitimate (and necessary) criticisms to be made of the state of Israel; conspiracy theories to explain away evidence of anti-semetism in the Labour party don’t fall into that category.
    Labour have people that have misjudged the line in the past. It's so easy to just say that. Corbyn now probably wouldn't wish to meet with terrorists - he may have done so in the past, but that was misjudged if he did. Trying to defend every past action as if it was one you'd make the same decision on now is just lunacy.

    Worse still trying to gloss over the stupid stuff actually means that anyone truly anti-semitic gets cover.

    Israel is in my view a state that stands for good things. It's full of mad people, but they're good people.

    Palestine I guess is much the same, apart from their leaders.
This discussion has been closed.