Just popped in for a few minutes and realised I had missed out on the opportunity to have a go at a raging Corbyn supporter/troll/antisemite.
In case you are still on here, be in no doubt, anyone that supports Corbyn is a racist. Stop pretending that it doesn't exist you miserable excuse for a human being. Anti-semites are the scum of the earth and Corbyn is one. he will be called out on it again and again. He is scum
Equally, you should be in no doubt that this kind of hysterical, unhinged ranting only helps Corbyn.
No its not unhinged, and no it doesn't help him. He is a racist. If you support him you are a racist by proxy.
Yep, it is unhinged, and yep, it does help Corbyn, because when the criticism of a politician becomes so persistently OTT, the "middle ground" voters end up just not listening to ANY criticisms of him (even if it's, hypothetically, a valid criticism) because they assume it will be drivel.
Even Tony Blair knows that:
"I never made my line of attack overly harsh. I always tried to make it telling. The aim was to get the non-politician nodding. I would wonder not what appealed to a Labour Party Conference in full throttle, but what would appeal to my old mates at the Bar, who wanted a reasonable case to be made .... Expressed like that, these attacks seem flat, rather mundane almost, and not exactly inspiring - but that's their appeal. Any one of these charges, if it comes to believed, is actually fatal. Yes, it's not like calling your opponent a liar, or a fraud, or a villain or a hypocrite, but the middle-ground floating voter kind of shrugs their shoulders at these claims. They don't chime. They're too over the top, too heavy, and they represent an insult, not an argument. Whereas the lesser charge, because it's more accurate and precisely because it's more low-key, can stick."
Maybe there's some truth in that argument. However, it does not deal with the fact that much of the criticism of Corbyn on anti-Semitism is red on red. It's no good people like J Wisemann dismissing Corbyn critics as discredited establishment right-wingers when they include people like Aaronovitch and Hodge.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
that is why your cult will just get smaller and smaller. For the labour party to stand a chance of power it has to appeal to floating voters. there are a lot of people who would gladly lend Labour their vote if it was not going to a terrorist sympathising, economically illiterate anti-semite
Labour are ahead in the polls and have an increasing membership from an already record-breaking baseline.
Fake news.
Labour membership has been in the millions before, so it isn't a record breaking baseline.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Zero evidence....
You sound like a Trump supporter.
OK. Shall we look at the facts, rather than the rabid, senile nonsense spewing out of here?
SO we have a small number of complaints that amount to approx 0.01% of the membership and 99% of those that have come to light are in some way related to criticism of Israel. There might have literally been a handful of actual anti-semitic nutcases amongst hundreds of thousands of people , just as there are undoubtedly in the Tory party too.
Virtually everything that has been picked up on happened during the pre-Corbyn era anyway, and yet strangely noone seemed to have suggested there was a problem then.
As we know anti-semitic views are much more prevalent amongst Tory voters than amongst Labour voters.
Corbyn has a long history of supporting early day motions against anti-semitism, better than his critics.
Basically the whole thing is tired bullcrap from a bunch of exhausted and discredited establishment right-wingers who are finding their endless mission to smear and destroy Corbyn dying on its arse.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
Yep, exactly. All the buffoons on here and in the right-wing westminster bubble twattersphere are completely getting it twisted as to how dragging this nonsense on is looking and who it is making look bad. Clue again: it isnt Corbyn.
It was more effective than many other attack lines which is why they have pushed it for a while but in terms of winning over new converts I don't think it will work to any great degree anymore, it does play well with the already converted, these people are lost to Corbyn anyway.
The problem will come with differential turnout, At the last election Corbyn had not yet proved to the centre left how appalling some of his views are. They were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Conversely the Tories proposed an extremely ill thought out social care policy alienating a lot of their own voters,
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
that is why your cult will just get smaller and smaller. For the labour party to stand a chance of power it has to appeal to floating voters. there are a lot of people who would gladly lend Labour their vote if it was not going to a terrorist sympathising, economically illiterate anti-semite
Labour are ahead in the polls and have an increasing membership from an already record-breaking baseline.
Fake news.
Labour membership has been in the millions before, so it isn't a record breaking baseline.
Labour has more members than any other party in Europe. I think that counts. (I was clearly talking about the modern political era anyway).
Just popped in for a few minutes and realised I had missed out on the opportunity to have a go at a raging Corbyn supporter/troll/antisemite.
In case you are still on here, be in no doubt, anyone that supports Corbyn is a racist. Stop pretending that it doesn't exist you miserable excuse for a human being. Anti-semites are the scum of the earth and Corbyn is one. he will be called out on it again and again. He is scum
Equally, you should be in no doubt that this kind of hysterical, unhinged ranting only helps Corbyn.
No its not unhinged, and no it doesn't help him. He is a racist. If you support him you are a racist by proxy.
Yep, it is unhinged, and yep, it does help Corbyn, because when the criticism of a politician becomes so persistently OTT, the "middle ground" voters end up just not listening to ANY criticisms of him (even if it's, hypothetically, a valid criticism) because they assume it will be drivel.
Even Tony Blair knows that:
"I never made my line of attack overly harsh. I always tried to make it telling. The aim was to get the non-politician nodding. I would wonder not what appealed to a Labour Party Conference in full throttle, but what would appeal to my old mates at the Bar, who wanted a reasonable case to be made .... Expressed like that, these attacks seem flat, rather mundane almost, and not exactly inspiring - but that's their appeal. Any one of these charges, if it comes to believed, is actually fatal. Yes, it's not like calling your opponent a liar, or a fraud, or a villain or a hypocrite, but the middle-ground floating voter kind of shrugs their shoulders at these claims. They don't chime. They're too over the top, too heavy, and they represent an insult, not an argument. Whereas the lesser charge, because it's more accurate and precisely because it's more low-key, can stick."
Maybe there's some truth in that argument. However, it does not deal with the fact that much of the criticism of Corbyn on anti-Semitism is red on red. It's no good people like J Wisemann dismissing Corbyn critics as discredited establishment right-wingers when they include people like Aaronovitch and Hodge.
Yes, incredible that a millionaire Israel-fanatic property developer and a Murdoch columnist known for endless anti-left diatribes would be anti-Corbyn.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
that is why your cult will just get smaller and smaller. For the labour party to stand a chance of power it has to appeal to floating voters. there are a lot of people who would gladly lend Labour their vote if it was not going to a terrorist sympathising, economically illiterate anti-semite
Labour are ahead in the polls and have an increasing membership from an already record-breaking baseline.
Fake news.
Labour membership has been in the millions before, so it isn't a record breaking baseline.
Labour membership is well over the membership af all other political parties put together.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
You are ignoring a raft of centre-left Labour voters who are appalled by how this is playing out. Some will hold their nose - but some will not. I know them. They are amongst my friends.
The anecdotal evidence of rafts of centre-left voters thinking of not voting Labour doesn't in my experience line up that well with the overall reality of how well Labour do. It could well be that some groups of people accurately report people turning away from Labour within their social circles.
Yep, it is unhinged, and yep, it does help Corbyn, because when the criticism of a politician becomes so persistently OTT, the "middle ground" voters end up just not listening to ANY criticisms of him (even if it's, hypothetically, a valid criticism) because they assume it will be drivel.
Even Tony Blair knows that:
"I never made my line of attack overly harsh. I always tried to make it telling. The aim was to get the non-politician nodding. I would wonder not what appealed to a Labour Party Conference in full throttle, but what would appeal to my old mates at the Bar, who wanted a reasonable case to be made .... Expressed like that, these attacks seem flat, rather mundane almost, and not exactly inspiring - but that's their appeal. Any one of these charges, if it comes to believed, is actually fatal. Yes, it's not like calling your opponent a liar, or a fraud, or a villain or a hypocrite, but the middle-ground floating voter kind of shrugs their shoulders at these claims. They don't chime. They're too over the top, too heavy, and they represent an insult, not an argument. Whereas the lesser charge, because it's more accurate and precisely because it's more low-key, can stick."
That's a good quote - don't remember seeing it before. Where's it from?
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is a gamechanger BIg G, 2017: Corbyn's annihilation of the Tory majority looks bad for Corbyn, this is a gamechanger Big G, 2018: Corbyn's supporters winning all the seats on the NEC looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2019: May being kicked out of office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2020: Corbyn elected looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger BIg G, 2030: Corbyn's third term in office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger. BIg G, 2035: The dissolution of the Tory party looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
Which ones? There are now two Momentums: Momentum and Provisional Momentum.
Probaby the labour party itself. How can Yvette Cooper, Starmer, Hilary Benn, Kinnock, Harman and Tom Watson and others allow this to continue
The problem is they have little power to stop it at the moment. The only thing they can do is wait or leave. The only way I could see them leaving is in a National Government due to Brexit causing the Tories to split. The Tory party is a vehicle for the ambitious to be politicians, the Labour party is almost like a religion. The only way MPs will leave in any decisive way would be to work in a National Government IMO.
Just popped in for a few minutes and realised I had missed out on the opportunity to have a go at a raging Corbyn supporter/troll/antisemite.
In case you are still on here, be in no doubt, anyone that supports Corbyn is a racist. Stop pretending that it doesn't exist you miserable excuse for a human being. Anti-semites are the scum of the earth and Corbyn is one. he will be called out on it again and again. He is scum
Equally, you should be in no doubt that this kind of hysterical, unhinged ranting only helps Corbyn.
No its not unhinged, and no it doesn't help him. He is a racist. If you support him you are a racist by proxy.
Yep, it is unhinged, and yep, it does help Corbyn, because when the criticism of a politician becomes so persistently OTT, the "middle ground" voters end up just not listening to ANY criticisms of him (even if it's, hypothetically, a valid criticism) because they assume it will be drivel.
Even Tony Blair knows that:
"I never made my line of attack overly harsh. I always tried to make it telling. The aim was to get the non-politician nodding. I would wonder not what appealed to a Labour Party Conference in full throttle, but what would appeal to my old mates at the Bar, who wanted a reasonable case to be made .... Expressed like that, these attacks seem flat, rather mundane almost, and not exactly inspiring - but that's their appeal. Any one of these charges, if it comes to believed, is actually fatal. Yes, it's not like calling your opponent a liar, or a fraud, or a villain or a hypocrite, but the middle-ground floating voter kind of shrugs their shoulders at these claims. They don't chime. They're too over the top, too heavy, and they represent an insult, not an argument. Whereas the lesser charge, because it's more accurate and precisely because it's more low-key, can stick."
Maybe there's some truth in that argument. However, it does not deal with the fact that much of the criticism of Corbyn on anti-Semitism is red on red. It's no good people like J Wisemann dismissing Corbyn critics as discredited establishment right-wingers when they include people like Aaronovitch and Hodge.
Yes, incredible that a millionaire Israel-fanatic property developer and a Murdoch columnist known for endless anti-left diatribes would be anti-Corbyn.
It's you that's the fanatic. Some of your posts are quite sinister.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
that is why your cult will just get smaller and smaller. For the labour party to stand a chance of power it has to appeal to floating voters. there are a lot of people who would gladly lend Labour their vote if it was not going to a terrorist sympathising, economically illiterate anti-semite
Labour are ahead in the polls and have an increasing membership from an already record-breaking baseline.
Fake news.
Labour membership has been in the millions before, so it isn't a record breaking baseline.
Labour has more members than any other party in Europe. I think that counts. (I was clearly talking about the modern political era anyway).
The present membership of 550,000 approx splits 330,000 - 220,000 for Corbyn.
That difference is perfectly possible to be bridged by the 220,000
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
Yep, exactly. All the buffoons on here and in the right-wing westminster bubble twattersphere are completely getting it twisted as to how dragging this nonsense on is looking and who it is making look bad. Clue again: it isnt Corbyn.
It was more effective than many other attack lines which is why they have pushed it for a while but in terms of winning over new converts I don't think it will work to any great degree anymore, it does play well with the already converted, these people are lost to Corbyn anyway.
The problem will come with differential turnout, At the last election Corbyn had not yet proved to the centre left how appalling some of his views are. They were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Conversely the Tories proposed an extremely ill thought out social care policy alienating a lot of their own voters,
What views are they exactly? What views do we now know about that havent already been misquoted and twisted to oblivion by one of the longest and most extreme propaganda campaigns this country has seen in living memory?
People seem to have incredible amnesia about the pre-2017 period. It was endless smears and attacks from the now thoroughly discredited and excoriated (and soon-to-be-ejected) Labour enemy within via their collaborators in the hard-right media, and still it had little effect. Its howling into the void.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is a gamechanger BIg G, 2017: Corbyn's annihilation of the Tory majority looks bad for Corbyn, this is a gamechanger Big G, 2018: Corbyn's supporters winning all the seats on the NEC looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2019: May being kicked out of office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2020: Corbyn elected looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger BIg G, 2030: Corbyn's third term in office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger. BIg G, 2035: The dissolution of the Tory party looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is a gamechanger BIg G, 2017: Corbyn's annihilation of the Tory majority looks bad for Corbyn, this is a gamechanger Big G, 2018: Corbyn's supporters winning all the seats on the NEC looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2019: May being kicked out of office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2020: Corbyn elected looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger BIg G, 2030: Corbyn's third term in office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger. BIg G, 2035: The dissolution of the Tory party looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
that is why your cult will just get smaller and smaller. For the labour party to stand a chance of power it has to appeal to floating voters. there are a lot of people who would gladly lend Labour their vote if it was not going to a terrorist sympathising, economically illiterate anti-semite
Labour are ahead in the polls and have an increasing membership from an already record-breaking baseline.
Fake news.
Labour membership has been in the millions before, so it isn't a record breaking baseline.
Labour has more members than any other party in Europe. I think that counts. (I was clearly talking about the modern political era anyway).
The present membership of 550,000 approx splits 330,000 - 220,000 for Corbyn.
That difference is perfectly possible to be bridged by the 220,000
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
that is why your cult will just get smaller and smaller. For the labour party to stand a chance of power it has to appeal to floating voters. there are a lot of people who would gladly lend Labour their vote if it was not going to a terrorist sympathising, economically illiterate anti-semite
Labour are ahead in the polls and have an increasing membership from an already record-breaking baseline.
(As an aside, I'd like to add that there are plenty of Jewish Corbyn supporters and also Jewish people who DO think this is a ridiculous and dangerous smear campaign that is doing damage to the real fight against anti-semitism, but all we seem to hear from in the media - I wonder why? - is right-wing pro-Israel groups and figures, who would be implacably opposed to Corbyn no matter what.)
There is what is electorally successful and what is morally right. You concentrate only on the former. Others are more concerned with the latter.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
that is why your cult will just get smaller and smaller. For the labour party to stand a chance of power it has to appeal to floating voters. there are a lot of people who would gladly lend Labour their vote if it was not going to a terrorist sympathising, economically illiterate anti-semite
Labour are ahead in the polls and have an increasing membership from an already record-breaking baseline.
Fake news.
Labour membership has been in the millions before, so it isn't a record breaking baseline.
Labour has more members than any other party in Europe. I think that counts. (I was clearly talking about the modern political era anyway).
The present membership of 550,000 approx splits 330,000 - 220,000 for Corbyn.
That difference is perfectly possible to be bridged by the 220,000
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is a gamechanger BIg G, 2017: Corbyn's annihilation of the Tory majority looks bad for Corbyn, this is a gamechanger Big G, 2018: Corbyn's supporters winning all the seats on the NEC looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2019: May being kicked out of office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2020: Corbyn elected looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger BIg G, 2030: Corbyn's third term in office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger. BIg G, 2035: The dissolution of the Tory party looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is a gamechanger BIg G, 2017: Corbyn's annihilation of the Tory majority looks bad for Corbyn, this is a gamechanger Big G, 2018: Corbyn's supporters winning all the seats on the NEC looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2019: May being kicked out of office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger Big G, 2020: Corbyn elected looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger BIg G, 2030: Corbyn's third term in office looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger. BIg G, 2035: The dissolution of the Tory party looks bad for Corbyn, gamechanger.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
This, although I don't particularly approve of calling BigG senile there is plenty of crap that flies in all directions, most people are often only bothered by that which goes against their own side. Some of his Wisemann's points do have merit.
Reading the thread, I see that it's a truth universally acknowledged, at least on the loony left, that Labour not only has nothing to worry about, but also has nothing to be ashamed of. That's OK, then.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
And it won't do anything but reinforce the views of Conservative voters about Corbyn, which really doesn't matter because they are not going to vote for him anyway.
that is why your cult will just get smaller and smaller. For the labour party to stand a chance of power it has to appeal to floating voters. there are a lot of people who would gladly lend Labour their vote if it was not going to a terrorist sympathising, economically illiterate anti-semite
Labour are ahead in the polls and have an increasing membership from an already record-breaking baseline.
Fake news.
Labour membership has been in the millions before, so it isn't a record breaking baseline.
Labour has more members than any other party in Europe. I think that counts. (I was clearly talking about the modern political era anyway).
The present membership of 550,000 approx splits 330,000 - 220,000 for Corbyn.
That difference is perfectly possible to be bridged by the 220,000
Plenty of pro Corbyn people voted for people off the slates like Ann Black and Eddie Izzard.
If you want to come up with a pro Corbyn and anti Corbyn count based on the NEC elections than only the Progress / Labour first slate could be counted as anti Corbyn.
Momentum slate pro Corbyn.
And the other off both those slates, which probably contain a more pro Corbyn slant than anti when you consider Ann Black was previously on the left slate and is a supporter of Corbyn.
I can't actually remember the figures but I think the pro Corbyn slate got around 3-4 times the percentage the anti Corbyn slate did with others off those slates making up the rest.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reaso the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
You seem to be under the misapprehension that noone has heard of or knows anything about the holocaust.
It is the disgusting cheapening of the memory of that unimaginable horror for short-term political expediency, by comparing it with a few badly-judged or bonkers criticisms of the appallingly violent and repressive racist settler state of Israel, a country that is falling ever further on the slope towards outright fascism, that really sticks in the craw, to be honest. It is a huge insult to the memory of those who endured it.
When was the last time a Labour member was ever convicted for any kind of racist attack on anyone, Jewish or otherwise? The real danger comes from the far-right who have been openly courted by the Tory high command over the past few years.
Sign up for their trial, the first 8 weeks are a pound a week.
Week six, ring up to cancel, and they'll offer you a good deal to stay.
Otherwise register and you can read one article a week for free.
Hoping for one of those 'perfectly legitimate' internet workarounds but thanks all the same.
I take the 'one article a week route' - and Aaronovitch's was good value for this week's article. In fact generally when a Times article is recommended on PB it's worth a look and it seldom seems to work out at more than one recommendation a week.
Three huge uncertainties overshadowing the political landscape at the moment:
How will Brexit pan out? Will Labour moderate MPs split to a new party? Will there be a Tory leadership challenge?
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
Yep, exactly. All the buffoons on here and in the right-wing westminster bubble twattersphere are completely getting it twisted as to how dragging this nonsense on is looking and who it is making look bad. Clue again: it isnt Corbyn.
It was more effective than many other attack lines which is why they have pushed it for a while but in terms of winning over new converts I don't think it will work to any great degree anymore, it does play well with the already converted, these people are lost to Corbyn anyway.
The problem will come with differential turnout, At the last election Corbyn had not yet proved to the centre left how appalling some of his views are. They were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Conversely the Tories proposed an extremely ill thought out social care policy alienating a lot of their own voters,
The accusations against Corbyn are mostly nothing new, there may be a new angle or a new story related to one but the people who didn't already believe/read/see/hear these accusations are likely to do exactly the same with the repeat of the accusation even with some new information attached.
Even Corbyn admits to the party have an anti semetic problem
And were you alive to witness the horrors the Jews experienced in the war. You would have a lot more sympathy if you had lived through those times
I wasn't, but my mother was - her passionate involvement in UNRRA's efforts to help Jewish victims during and after the war is partly what prompted me to join Labour Friends of Israel and later serve on its executive.
That said, I do think your concerns are not well-based. There is indisputably disagreement within Labour about Israel. But IMO both Zionists and anti-semites are mistaken when they identify anti-Zionism (an opinion about the Middle East) with anti-semitism (hostility to Jewish people). The latter is extremely rare in Britain in any party in my experience.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
This, although I don't particularly approve of calling BigG senile there is plenty of crap that flies in all directions, most people are often only bothered by that which goes against their own side. Some of his Wisemann's points do have merit.
It was a bit of a crass insult, I admit, but some of the stuff being directed at labour supporters here is incredibly offensive and whilst I mostly find the sheer hysterical lunacy of it quite amusing, the fact that this pantomime is actually harming genuine attempts to tackle prejudice periodically brings out my angry side too.
Reading the thread, I see that it's a truth universally acknowledged, at least on the loony left, that Labour not only has nothing to worry about, but also has nothing to be ashamed of. That's OK, then.
That's an Austen adaptation too far, if I may say so.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
I am only quoting Margaret Hodges interview.
Do you deny Jews in this Country are not living in fear over this
Yep, it is unhinged, and yep, it does help Corbyn, because when the criticism of a politician becomes so persistently OTT, the "middle ground" voters end up just not listening to ANY criticisms of him (even if it's, hypothetically, a valid criticism) because they assume it will be drivel.
Even Tony Blair knows that:
"I never made my line of attack overly harsh. I always tried to make it telling. The aim was to get the non-politician nodding. I would wonder not what appealed to a Labour Party Conference in full throttle, but what would appeal to my old mates at the Bar, who wanted a reasonable case to be made .... Expressed like that, these attacks seem flat, rather mundane almost, and not exactly inspiring - but that's their appeal. Any one of these charges, if it comes to believed, is actually fatal. Yes, it's not like calling your opponent a liar, or a fraud, or a villain or a hypocrite, but the middle-ground floating voter kind of shrugs their shoulders at these claims. They don't chime. They're too over the top, too heavy, and they represent an insult, not an argument. Whereas the lesser charge, because it's more accurate and precisely because it's more low-key, can stick."
That's a good quote - don't remember seeing it before. Where's it from?
From his autobiography, which I just spent a couple of weeks reading (the overlap on the Venn diagram of people who support Corbyn and who've read 'A Journey' must be very small!).
Yep, it is unhinged, and yep, it does help Corbyn, because when the criticism of a politician becomes so persistently OTT, the "middle ground" voters end up just not listening to ANY criticisms of him (even if it's, hypothetically, a valid criticism) because they assume it will be drivel.
Even Tony Blair knows that:
"I never made my line of attack overly harsh. I always tried to make it telling. The aim was to get the non-politician nodding. I would wonder not what appealed to a Labour Party Conference in full throttle, but what would appeal to my old mates at the Bar, who wanted a reasonable case to be made .... Expressed like that, these attacks seem flat, rather mundane almost, and not exactly inspiring - but that's their appeal. Any one of these charges, if it comes to believed, is actually fatal. Yes, it's not like calling your opponent a liar, or a fraud, or a villain or a hypocrite, but the middle-ground floating voter kind of shrugs their shoulders at these claims. They don't chime. They're too over the top, too heavy, and they represent an insult, not an argument. Whereas the lesser charge, because it's more accurate and precisely because it's more low-key, can stick."
That's a good quote - don't remember seeing it before. Where's it from?
Sign up for their trial, the first 8 weeks are a pound a week.
Week six, ring up to cancel, and they'll offer you a good deal to stay.
Otherwise register and you can read one article a week for free.
Hoping for one of those 'perfectly legitimate' internet workarounds but thanks all the same.
I take the 'one article a week route' - and Aaronovitch's was good value for this week's article. In fact generally when a Times article is recommended on PB it's worth a look and it seldom seems to work out at more than one recommendation a week.
Three huge uncertainties overshadowing the political landscape at the moment:
How will Brexit pan out? Will Labour moderate MPs split to a new party? Will there be a Tory leadership challenge?
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
This, although I don't particularly approve of calling BigG senile there is plenty of crap that flies in all directions, most people are often only bothered by that which goes against their own side. Some of his Wisemann's points do have merit.
It was a bit of a crass insult, I admit, but some of the stuff being directed at labour supporters here is incredibly offensive and whilst I mostly find the sheer hysterical lunacy of it quite amusing, the fact that this pantomime is actually harming genuine attempts to tackle prejudice periodically brings out my angry side too.
You get plenty of uncalled for abuse yourself (as do Labour and the left in general) so I wasn't (intentionally anyway) singling you out just wanted to make a point in agreement without that part of it.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
No he wouldn't be planning a progrom. But to be frank, I am no longer convinced that if one was to happen, he wouldn't go on TV and say he deplores violence on both sides.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
I am only quoting Margaret Hodges interview.
Do you deny Jews in this Country are not living in fear over this
You really can't entertain the idea that Hodge, who has had a vendetta against Corbyn for decades as detailed in Private Eye, could be being disingenuous to damage a political foe?
Even Corbyn admits to the party have an anti semetic problem
And were you alive to witness the horrors the Jews experienced in the war. You would have a lot more sympathy if you had lived through those times
I wasn't, but my mother was - her passionate involvement in UNRRA's efforts to help Jewish victims during and after the war is partly what prompted me to join Labour Friends of Israel and later serve on its executive.
That said, I do think your concerns are not well-based. There is indisputably disagreement within Labour about Israel. But IMO both Zionists and anti-semites are mistaken when they identify anti-Zionism (an opinion about the Middle East) with anti-semitism (hostility to Jewish people). The latter is extremely rare in Britain in any party in my experience.
I read your posts with interest Nick and my childhood memories are vivid, as indeed are my wifes, and my central argument is that every Jew living in this Country has a right to live in peace and at present they feel threatened by Corbyn and his inner circle
Even Corbyn admits to the party have an anti semetic problem
And were you alive to witness the horrors the Jews experienced in the war. You would have a lot more sympathy if you had lived through those times
I wasn't, but my mother was - her passionate involvement in UNRRA's efforts to help Jewish victims during and after the war is partly what prompted me to join Labour Friends of Israel and later serve on its executive.
That said, I do think your concerns are not well-based. There is indisputably disagreement within Labour about Israel. But IMO both Zionists and anti-semites are mistaken when they identify anti-Zionism (an opinion about the Middle East) with anti-semitism (hostility to Jewish people). The latter is extremely rare in Britain in any party in my experience.
I read your posts with interest Nick and my childhood memories are vivid, as indeed are my wifes, and my central argument is that every Jew living in this Country has a right to live in peace and at present they feel threatened by Corbyn and his inner circle
Even Corbyn admits to the party have an anti semetic problem
And were you alive to witness the horrors the Jews experienced in the war. You would have a lot more sympathy if you had lived through those times
I wasn't, but my mother was - her passionate involvement in UNRRA's efforts to help Jewish victims during and after the war is partly what prompted me to join Labour Friends of Israel and later serve on its executive.
That said, I do think your concerns are not well-based. There is indisputably disagreement within Labour about Israel. But IMO both Zionists and anti-semites are mistaken when they identify anti-Zionism (an opinion about the Middle East) with anti-semitism (hostility to Jewish people). The latter is extremely rare in Britain in any party in my experience.
I read your posts with interest Nick and my childhood memories are vivid, as indeed are my wifes, and my central argument is that every Jew living in this Country has a right to live in peace and at present they feel threatened by Corbyn and his inner circle
What, even the not inconsiderable number that actually support Corbyn? I suppose, as always, they are the wrong type of jews. Only racist hard-right pro-Israel nutters count.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dang
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
I am only quoting Margaret Hodges interview.
Do you deny Jews in this Country are not living in fear over this
None that I have met have mentioned it, but Leicester is a pretty tolerant place.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dang
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
I am only quoting Margaret Hodges interview.
Do you deny Jews in this Country are not living in fear over this
None that I have met have mentioned it, but Leicester is a pretty tolerant place.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
You do not have to have been born in the war to appreciate that the Holocaust was one of the most despicable acts carried out by humans on fellow humans.
I think some on the Labour left are mildy anti-semitic, largely as a by-product of their long-standing support for the Palestinian cause. I deplore that anti-semitism and unless and until they address it, it makes it very hard for me personally to consider voting Labour.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
You do not have to have been born in the war to appreciate that the Holocaust was one of the most despicable acts carried out by humans on fellow humans.
I think many on the Labour left are mildy anti-semitic, largely as a by-product of their long-standing support for the Palestinian cause. I deplore that anti-semitism and unless and until they address it, it makes it very hard for me personally to consider voting Labour.
'Many'? What's your evidence for this may I ask? A tiny handful, maybe (and one is too many, but proportion is needed here).
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dang
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
I am only quoting Margaret Hodges interview.
Do you deny Jews in this Country are not living in fear over this
None that I have met have mentioned it, but Leicester is a pretty tolerant place.
None that I know have either.
Indeed, had dinner with a Jewish friend on Friday - a lot about Brexit, American mid-terms, and table-tennis (don't ask!) - no mention of Labour anti-semitism.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
I think he is utterly insensitive to the concerns which Jews have and have expressed to him, in their meeting with him, and publicly. Jews know their own history better than anyone else. They know that what ends with pogroms (or worse) starts with words. I have Jewish friends who are getting foreign passports so that they have somewhere to go to if necessary. That is not something they were considering a few years ago.
There is a total lack of emotional intelligence on Corbyn’s part in understanding the fear of Jews and an utter lack of willingness to listen - he wouldn’t even stay to listen to his own MPs describing their experience in Parliament - or attempt to do something about their concerns. There is a total lack of empathy.
Jews are not going to wait for pogroms. If they don’t feel safe, they will go. As they have in France, for instance. An intelligent humane genuine anti-racist would seek to address those fears and could easily do so while still maintaining his support for the Palestinian cause.
But I do not think - based on his actions and words - not just before he became leader but since then - that Corbyn is intelligent or humane or a genuine anti-racist. He postures. He does not think. And he is unable to put himself in the shoes of those he disagrees with or dislikes, hence his utter tone deafness to the feelings of the Jewish community in Britain.
That's a good quote - don't remember seeing it before. Where's it from?
From his autobiography, which I just spent a couple of weeks reading (the overlap on the Venn diagram of people who support Corbyn and who've read 'A Journey' must be very small!).
I read it (and enjoyed it) when it came out, but must have forgotten that bit.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
You sound as if you want to wish it away.
This will follow Corbyn and labour all the way to the next GE if he remains leader
Hahaha. Love this senile guy's endless pronouncements on THIS DEFINITELY BEING THE END OF CORBYN, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE!?.
Big G, 2015: Corbyn's overwhelming election as leader looks bad for Corbyn Big G, 2016: Corbyn's overwhelming re-election as leader looks bad for Corbyn, now this is .
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
And it shows you are in panic mode.
I am not senile and I think many on here would see that as an insult
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
I can't help but feel that the truth lies somewhere mid-way between JWisemann's and Big_G's extreme assessments.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
You do not have to have been born in the war to appreciate that the Holocaust was one of the most despicable acts carried out by humans on fellow humans.
I think many on the Labour left are mildy anti-semitic, largely as a by-product of their long-standing support for the Palestinian cause. I deplore that anti-semitism and unless and until they address it, it makes it very hard for me personally to consider voting Labour.
'Many'? What's your evidence for this may I ask? A tiny handful, maybe (and one is too many, but proportion is needed here).
It's a fair point - I have no evidence for 'many' - edited it to 'some'.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
There is a total lack of emotional intelligence on Corbyn’s part in understanding the fear of Jews and an utter lack of willingness to listen - he wouldn’t even stay to listen to his own MPs describing their experience in Parliament - or attempt to do something about their concerns. There is a total lack of empathy.
Jews are not going to wait for pogroms. If they don’t feel safe, they will go. As they have in France, for instance. An intelligent humane genuine anti-racist would seek to address those fears and could easily do so while still maintaining his support for the Palestinian cause.
But I do not think - based on his actions and words - not just before he became leader but since then - that Corbyn is intelligent or humane or a genuine anti-racist. He postures. He does not think. And he is unable to put himself in the shoes of those he disagrees with or dislikes, hence his utter tone deafness to the feelings of the Jewish community in Britain.
Are you seriously sitting here with a straight-face and saying you think a single person in Britain, Jewish or otherwise, believes that any kind of Labour-led violence against the Jewish community (or any other community) is ever likely to happen in this Universe?
if it happened it would be coming from the far-right, as always, the same far-right encouraged and fostered by your beloved Tories.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
There is a total lack of emotional intelligence on Corbyn’s part in understanding the fear of Jews and an utter lack of willingness to listen - he wouldn’t even stay to listen to his own MPs describing their experience in Parliament - or attempt to do something about their concerns. There is a total lack of empathy.
Jews are not going to wait for pogroms. If they don’t feel safe, they will go. As they have in France, for instance. An intelligent humane genuine anti-racist would seek to address those fears and could easily do so while still maintaining his support for the Palestinian cause.
But I do not think - based on his actions and words - not just before he became leader but since then - that Corbyn is intelligent or humane or a genuine anti-racist. He postures. He does not think. And he is unable to put himself in the shoes of those he disagrees with or dislikes, hence his utter tone deafness to the feelings of the Jewish community in Britain.
Are you seriously sitting here with a straight-face and saying you think a single person in Britain, Jewish or otherwise, thinks that any kind of Labour-led violence against the Jewish community (or any other community) is ever likely to happen in this Universe?
if it happened it would be coming from the far-right, as always, the same far-right encouraged and fostered by your beloved Tories.
Your abuse is unacceptable and sadly so evident in Corbyn's inner circle.
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
There is a total lack of emotional intelligence on Corbyn’s part in understanding the fear of Jews and an utter lack of willingness to listen - he wouldn’t even stay to listen to his own MPs describing their experience in Parliament - or attempt to do something about their concerns. There is a total lack of empathy.
Jews are ndoes not think. And he is unable to put himself in the shoes of those he disagrees with or dislikes, hence his utter tone deafness to the feelings of the Jewish community in Britain.
Are you seriously sitting here with a straight-face and saying you think a single person in Britain, Jewish or otherwise, thinks that any kind of Labour-led violence against the Jewish community (or any other community) is ever likely to happen in this Universe?
if it happened it would be coming from the far-right, as always, the same far-right encouraged and fostered by your beloved Tories.
There is a total lack of emotional intelligence on Corbyn’s part in understanding the fear of Jews and an utter lack of willingness to listen - he wouldn’t even stay to listen to his own MPs describing their experience in Parliament - or attempt to do something about their concerns. There is a total lack of empathy.
Jews are not going to wait for pogroms. If they don’t feel safe, they will go. As they have in France, for instance. An intelligent humane genuine anti-racist would seek to address those fears and could easily do so while still maintaining his support for the Palestinian cause.
But I do not think - based on his actions and words - not just before he became leader but since then - that Corbyn is intelligent or humane or a genuine anti-racist. He postures. He does not think. And he is unable to put himself in the shoes of those he disagrees with or dislikes, hence his utter tone deafness to the feelings of the Jewish community in Britain.
Are you seriously sitting here with a straight-face and saying you think a single person in Britain, Jewish or otherwise, believes that any kind of Labour-led violence against the Jewish community (or any other community) is ever likely to happen in this Universe?
if it happened it would be coming from the far-right, as always, the same far-right encouraged and fostered by your beloved Tories.
They are not my beloved Tories. I have not said what you claim I have said. Anti-semitism is not restricted to the right and you are a fool if you think so. I have described my view of why Corbyn lacks the emotional intelligence to deal with this issue, something he could (and should) have done months, if not years, ago and which he could have done without compromising his support for Palestinians.
I have no confidence that Corbyn takes at all seriously the first - and most important - duty of a Prime Minister, namely, to protect this country and its citizens from harm, whether it comes from internal or external threats. And it is not Tories or Lib Dems saying this but senior Labour members, with a much longer and more distinguished record of serving Labour and the country than an obscure backbencher who voted so often with the Tories it’s a wonder they didn’t offer him free membership.
The deranged tweets from Trump supporters with blue ticks that follow his are even scarier.
Whilst I don't like Trump and can certainly see merit in say the courts originally striking down his Muslim travel ban as racist there could be said to be a crossover at some point between doing the right thing and actively undermining a democratically elected president.
Filling in for laziness or stupidity is one thing but if it came to the president's staff actively working against decisions taken by a president then it gets into murkier waters if we are looking at the principle rather than just Trump himself.
Aside from anything else it won't help Trump supporters to come to a different opinion of Trump but give them a betrayal narrative.
I was alive in the war years and saw the Jews suffering. Were you
You are constantly slandering labour and its supporters as anti-semitic with zero evidence which is cynical, disgusting and dangerous to those suffering from genuine prejudice, so Im afraid insults are all you deserve at this point really.
Sadly there is plenty of evidence even if you choose to ignore it.
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
Come on Ben - you did not live with the images in the war I assume.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
That is rather hyperbolic.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
I think he is utterly insensitive to the concerns which Jews have and have expressed to him, in their meeting with him, and publicly. Jews know their own history better than anyone else. They know that what ends with pogroms (or worse) starts with words. I have Jewish friends who are getting foreign passports so that they have somewhere to go to if necessary. That is not something they were considering a few years ago.
There is a total lack of emotional intelligence on Corbyn’s part in understanding the fear of Jews and an utter lack of willingness to listen - he wouldn’t even stay to listen to his own MPs describing their experience in Parliament - or attempt to do something about their concerns. There is a total lack of empathy.
Jews are not going to wait for pogroms. If they don’t feel safe, they will go. As they have in France, for instance. An intelligent humane genuine anti-racist would seek to address those fears and could easily do so while still maintaining his support for the Palestinian cause.
But I do not think - based on his actions and words - not just before he became leader but since then - that Corbyn is intelligent or humane or a genuine anti-racist. He postures. He does not think. And he is unable to put himself in the shoes of those he disagrees with or dislikes, hence his utter tone deafness to the feelings of the Jewish community in Britain.
Personally I don’t believe Corbyn would be behind attacks on Jews. Unfortunately I believe that Corbyn would be behind a tax on Jews.
The deranged tweets from Trump supporters with blue ticks that follow his are even scarier.
Whilst I don't like Trump and can certainly see merit in say the courts originally striking down his Muslim travel ban as racist there could be said to be a crossover at some point between doing the right thing and actively undermining a democratically elected president.
Filling in for laziness or stupidity is one thing but if it came to the president's staff actively working against decisions taken by a president then it gets into murkier waters if we are looking at the principle rather than just Trump himself.
Aside from anything else it won't help Trump supporters to come to a different opinion of Trump but give them a betrayal narrative.
Quite right. If your conscience says that you cannot do what the democratically elected leader requires you should resign. That said there is a fine line between that and doing what you can to implement things in a way which makes sense. I think most of us have had experience of loopy bosses you have to work around.
BTW the travel ban was ultimately upheld by the courts.
An emir (/əˈmɪər, eɪˈmɪər, ˈeɪmɪər/; Arabic: أمير ʾamīr [ʔaˈmiːr]), sometimes transliterated amir, amier, or ameer, is an aristocratic or noble and military title of high office used in a variety of places in the Arab countries, West Africa, and Afghanistan. It means "commander", "general", or "King".
An emir (/əˈmɪər, eɪˈmɪər, ˈeɪmɪər/; Arabic: أمير ʾamīr [ʔaˈmiːr]), sometimes transliterated amir, amier, or ameer, is an aristocratic or noble and military title of high office used in a variety of places in the Arab countries, West Africa, and Afghanistan. It means "commander", "general", or "King".
An emir (/əˈmɪər, eɪˈmɪər, ˈeɪmɪər/; Arabic: أمير ʾamīr [ʔaˈmiːr]), sometimes transliterated amir, amier, or ameer, is an aristocratic or noble and military title of high office used in a variety of places in the Arab countries, West Africa, and Afghanistan. It means "commander", "general", or "King".
An emir (/əˈmɪər, eɪˈmɪər, ˈeɪmɪər/; Arabic: أمير ʾamīr [ʔaˈmiːr]), sometimes transliterated amir, amier, or ameer, is an aristocratic or noble and military title of high office used in a variety of places in the Arab countries, West Africa, and Afghanistan. It means "commander", "general", or "King".
An emir (/əˈmɪər, eɪˈmɪər, ˈeɪmɪər/; Arabic: أمير ʾamīr [ʔaˈmiːr]), sometimes transliterated amir, amier, or ameer, is an aristocratic or noble and military title of high office used in a variety of places in the Arab countries, West Africa, and Afghanistan. It means "commander", "general", or "King".
There is a total lack of emotional intelligence on Corbyn’s part in understanding the fear of Jews and an utter lack of willingness to listen - he wouldn’t even stay to listen to his own MPs describing their experience in Parliament - or attempt to do something about their concerns. There is a total lack of empathy.
Jews are not going to wait for pogroms. If they don’t feel safe, they will go. As they have in France, for instance. An intelligent humane genuine anti-racist would seek to address those fears and could easily do so while still maintaining his support for the Palestinian cause.
But I do not think - based on his actions and words - not just before he became leader but since then - that Corbyn is intelligent or humane or a genuine anti-racist. He postures. He does not think. And he is unable to put himself in the shoes of those he disagrees with or dislikes, hence his utter tone deafness to the feelings of the Jewish community in Britain.
Personally I don’t believe Corbyn would be behind attacks on Jews. Unfortunately I believe that Corbyn would be behind a tax on Jews.
I don’t think he would order attacks on Jews. But would he do enough to stop others attacking Jews, whether verbally or physically? He is indifferent to them. And indifference can - sometimes - have lethal consequences.
A leader and a party that were serious about rooting out anti-semitism would not have a backlog of 000’s of cases and only one person dealing with the investigations. Any Labour member who felt like abusing Jews verbally knows that the chances of them ever being investigated let alone any disciplinary action being taken against them are pretty low. And they can always claim that they are exercising their right to free speech against Zionists and they would as likely as not get off.
So the practical result of Corbyn being militantly against anti-semitism is, in reality, the square root of sod all.
The problem with the alternative line of attack about Corbyn caring more is it is his enemies who keep the story or stories somewhat related to it running. Any fatigue or annoyance at caring about issues related to Israel-Palestine more than British issues will surely be a factor Corbyn's opponents also come up against. One major reason the stories have less impact as time goes on is the law of diminishing returns (also a bit of crying wolf) but a factor must just be that people are tired of hearing about it.
Which doesn't make it promising as a continued attack line.
Edit: Although thinking on it getting tired of hearing about it would probably just be part of the diminishing returns part anyway.
Yep, exactly. All the buffoons on here and in the right-wing westminster bubble twattersphere are completely getting it twisted as to how dragging this nonsense on is looking and who it is making look bad. Clue again: it isnt Corbyn.
It was more effective than many other attack lines which is why they have pushed it for a while but in terms of winning over new converts I don't think it will work to any great degree anymore, it does play well with the already converted, these people are lost to Corbyn anyway.
The problem will come with differential turnout, At the last election Corbyn had not yet proved to the centre left how appalling some of his views are. They were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Conversely the Tories proposed an extremely ill thought out social care policy alienating a lot of their own voters,
The accusations against Corbyn are mostly nothing new, there may be a new angle or a new story related to one but the people who didn't already believe/read/see/hear these accusations are likely to do exactly the same with the repeat of the accusation even with some new information attached.
Yes but the negative associations will linger. Even if likely to vote move downwards by one point it would be significant if accompanied with a stronger likelihood to vote Tory. Lets say that Labour certain to vote average moves down from 8.5 to 7.5 accompanied by a Tory move from 8 to 8.5. That could be enough for the Tories to gain the 11 seats with a majority of less than 1000 from Labour.
An emir (/əˈmɪər, eɪˈmɪər, ˈeɪmɪər/; Arabic: أمير ʾamīr [ʔaˈmiːr]), sometimes transliterated amir, amier, or ameer, is an aristocratic or noble and military title of high office used in a variety of places in the Arab countries, West Africa, and Afghanistan. It means "commander", "general", or "King".
The caliphs first used the title Amir al-Muminin or "Commander of the Faithful", stressing their leadership over the Islamic empire, especially over the militia. The title has been assumed by various other Muslim rulers, including sultans and emirs. For Shia Muslims, they still give this title to the Caliph Ali as Amir al-Muminin. The Abbasid (in theory still universal) Caliph Ar-Radi created the post of Amir al-Umara ("Amir of the Amirs") for Ibn Raik; the title was used in various Islamic monarchies;
The deranged tweets from Trump supporters with blue ticks that follow his are even scarier.
Whilst I don't like Trump and can certainly see merit in say the courts originally striking down his Muslim travel ban as racist there could be said to be a crossover at some point between doing the right thing and actively undermining a democratically elected president.
Filling in for laziness or stupidity is one thing but if it came to the president's staff actively working against decisions taken by a president then it gets into murkier waters if we are looking at the principle rather than just Trump himself.
Aside from anything else it won't help Trump supporters to come to a different opinion of Trump but give them a betrayal narrative.
Quite right. If your conscience says that you cannot do what the democratically elected leader requires you should resign. That said there is a fine line between that and doing what you can to implement things in a way which makes sense. I think most of us have had experience of loopy bosses you have to work around....
It is a bizarre article. The author claims to support most of Trump’s goals, and effectively to be saving him from himself in order to further them ... and then calls for the country to ‘come together’. (
If the individual (or his/her associates described in the article are cabinet members, they will have sworn the following:: “I... do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States...” If the President is truly incapable of fulfilling his role, then the remedy is the 25th Amendment. The actions described in the article are effectively usurpation of the office of the Presidency.
I take the point about loopy bosses, and the thought of a White House stuffed only by Sebastian Gorkas is certainly scary, but anonymous op eds in the NYT are not a viable remedy.
An emir (/əˈmɪər, eɪˈmɪər, ˈeɪmɪər/; Arabic: أمير ʾamīr [ʔaˈmiːr]), sometimes transliterated amir, amier, or ameer, is an aristocratic or noble and military title of high office used in a variety of places in the Arab countries, West Africa, and Afghanistan. It means "commander", "general", or "King".
It was more effective than many other attack lines which is why they have pushed it for a while but in terms of winning over new converts I don't think it will work to any great degree anymore, it does play well with the already converted, these people are lost to Corbyn anyway.
The problem will come with differential turnout, At the last election Corbyn had not yet proved to the centre left how appalling some of his views are. They were willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Conversely the Tories proposed an extremely ill thought out social care policy alienating a lot of their own voters,
The accusations against Corbyn are mostly nothing new, there may be a new angle or a new story related to one but the people who didn't already believe/read/see/hear these accusations are likely to do exactly the same with the repeat of the accusation even with some new information attached.
Yes but the negative associations will linger. Even if likely to vote move downwards by one point it would be significant if accompanied with a stronger likelihood to vote Tory. Lets say that Labour certain to vote average moves down from 8.5 to 7.5 accompanied by a Tory move from 8 to 8.5. That could be enough for the Tories to gain the 11 seats with a majority of less than 1000 from Labour.
Yes but the people reading/seeing/hearing and believing these stories is not universal among voters, there may be many Tory voters who are more than a point less likely to vote for Corbyn. Their likelihood to vote Corbyn was low enough to make it meaningless already. Many Labour voters who aren't moved or are even annoyed at these stories stories also produce no effect.
Given the evidence we have from polling and such I would suggest the only way to say Corbyn and Labour have suffered from this electorally is if they would have surged ahead without it. I don't think they would have.
...The new Bob Woodward book set the bad precedent. The high official who thought the president so addled that he would not remember the paper he snatched off his desk? Those who thought the president stupid, ignorant, beholden to Russia—and then exited the administration to return to their comfortable, lucrative occupations? Who substituted deep-background gripe sessions with a reporter for offering detailed proof of presidential unfitness, or worse, before the House or Senate? Yes, better than the robotic servility of the public record. But only slightly...
Winston Churchill once warned Europe that, by choosing the dishonor of Hitlerism in a bid to avoid war, they would, in the end, reap both Hitlerism and war.
It now behooves Europeans to say to their British partners that by cutting corners, playing with fire, lying to voters and allies, avoiding history, and shrinking from their own greatness, they, too, risk winding up with both—this time both Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn.
Winston Churchill once warned Europe that, by choosing the dishonor of Hitlerism in a bid to avoid war, they would, in the end, reap both Hitlerism and war.
It now behooves Europeans to say to their British partners that by cutting corners, playing with fire, lying to voters and allies, avoiding history, and shrinking from their own greatness, they, too, risk winding up with both—this time both Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn.
The left wing European parties generally try to learn from Labour and Corbyn (and I'm sure we do the same where it would be useful) rather than see him as a looming threat. There is a similarly close relationship with the Sanders wing of the Democrats (maybe more of us learning though)
Where they could get allies is in those who see Sanders as a threat for example or similar politicians across Europe within their own countries. Although this just ends up looking a bit like what it is, partisan.
Some of you may remember the MP for Christchurch, Christopher Chope. He insisted on blocking the upskirting law because of a deeply-held lifelong belief that backbench legislation be opposed.
Some of you may remember the MP for Christchurch, Christopher Chope. He insisted on blocking the upskirting law because of a deeply-held lifelong belief that backbench legislation be opposed.
(Seriously: is he mental? Not in the insulty way, but is-there-something-actually-wrong-with-him ? This isn't the actions of a coherent individual)
You weren't paying attention. He wasn't blocking the bill because he disagreed with the basic concept behind it, but because he thought it was being rushed through without enough scrutiny.
Where are our champions of liberalism? We're being over-run by half-witted populists.
The Conservatives have turned into antibusiness fantasists, Labour has turned into not-anti-semites-honest-guv, Libs have turned into So Very Old, UKIP is dissolving into a fizzing pool of gall. We are quite comprehensively f***ed.
Even Corbyn admits to the party have an anti semetic problem
And were you alive to witness the horrors the Jews experienced in the war. You would have a lot more sympathy if you had lived through those times
I wasn't, but my mother was - her passionate involvement in UNRRA's efforts to help Jewish victims during and after the war is partly what prompted me to join Labour Friends of Israel and later serve on its executive.
That said, I do think your concerns are not well-based. There is indisputably disagreement within Labour about Israel. But IMO both Zionists and anti-semites are mistaken when they identify anti-Zionism (an opinion about the Middle East) with anti-semitism (hostility to Jewish people). The latter is extremely rare in Britain in any party in my experience.
I read your posts with interest Nick and my childhood memories are vivid, as indeed are my wifes, and my central argument is that every Jew living in this Country has a right to live in peace and at present they feel threatened by Corbyn and his inner circle
Rubbish! I doubt a single one feels the slightest bit threatened. The reason this is gaining no traction other than with the iredeemably stupid is because to 99.9% of the population it doesn't ring true. I have lost count of the number of friends who ask me what I make of it and when I say confected bullshit it turns out they all think exactly the same.
Some of you may remember the MP for Christchurch, Christopher Chope. He insisted on blocking the upskirting law because of a deeply-held lifelong belief that backbench legislation be opposed.
(Seriously: is he mental? Not in the insulty way, but is-there-something-actually-wrong-with-him ? This isn't the actions of a coherent individual)
You weren't paying attention. He wasn't blocking the bill because he disagreed with the basic concept behind it, but because he thought it was being rushed through without enough scrutiny.
Perhaps, perhaps not. I recall that (one of) the positions he took was that backbench legislation was by definition undemocratic since he believed that legislation should only proceed from Government. I thought this was a ridiculous stance on multiple levels and said so somewhat wittily at the time, riffing on the Leave misconception about legislative initiative. If his true position was inadequate scrutiny then fair enough, but his actions at the time were more consistent with my interpretation, and any later spin he placed on his actions did not convince me.
Where are our champions of liberalism? We're being over-run by half-witted populists.
The Conservatives have turned into antibusiness fantasists, Labour has turned into not-anti-semites-honest-guv, Libs have turned into So Very Old, UKIP is dissolving into a fizzing pool of gall. We are quite comprehensively f***ed.
"What viewcode is trying to tell you is that we ain't got no entertainment center, no climate control, no video system, no surveillance, no freezers, no fucking ice cream, no rubbers, no women, no guns. All we got here is *shit*!"
Comments
Labour membership has been in the millions before, so it isn't a record breaking baseline.
I really wish you well
Big G is one of the most decent people on here. You are not fit to lick his boots.
That difference is perfectly possible to be bridged by the 220,000
People seem to have incredible amnesia about the pre-2017 period. It was endless smears and attacks from the now thoroughly discredited and excoriated (and soon-to-be-ejected) Labour enemy within via their collaborators in the hard-right media, and still it had little effect. Its howling into the void.
If you had you would fight for British Jews to feel safe in their own Country, not have suitcases packed and waiting as Margaret Hodge said the other day
If you want to come up with a pro Corbyn and anti Corbyn count based on the NEC elections than only the Progress / Labour first slate could be counted as anti Corbyn.
Momentum slate pro Corbyn.
And the other off both those slates, which probably contain a more pro Corbyn slant than anti when you consider Ann Black was previously on the left slate and is a supporter of Corbyn.
I can't actually remember the figures but I think the pro Corbyn slate got around 3-4 times the percentage the anti Corbyn slate did with others off those slates making up the rest.
It is the disgusting cheapening of the memory of that unimaginable horror for short-term political expediency, by comparing it with a few badly-judged or bonkers criticisms of the appallingly violent and repressive racist settler state of Israel, a country that is falling ever further on the slope towards outright fascism, that really sticks in the craw, to be honest. It is a huge insult to the memory of those who endured it.
When was the last time a Labour member was ever convicted for any kind of racist attack on anyone, Jewish or otherwise? The real danger comes from the far-right who have been openly courted by the Tory high command over the past few years.
Three huge uncertainties overshadowing the political landscape at the moment:
How will Brexit pan out?
Will Labour moderate MPs split to a new party?
Will there be a Tory leadership challenge?
I could be an interesting few years.
Jezza has been pro-Palestinian and anti -Zionist for years, but are you seriously suggesting he is planning a pogrom?
That said, I do think your concerns are not well-based. There is indisputably disagreement within Labour about Israel. But IMO both Zionists and anti-semites are mistaken when they identify anti-Zionism (an opinion about the Middle East) with anti-semitism (hostility to Jewish people). The latter is extremely rare in Britain in any party in my experience.
Do you deny Jews in this Country are not living in fear over this
Also 'ye without sin...' an all that.
https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/1037322563985268736?s=19
Maybe tomorrow we can all wake up to a more tolerant UK
Good night folks
You do not have to have been born in the war to appreciate that the Holocaust was one of the most despicable acts carried out by humans on fellow humans.
I think some on the Labour left are mildy anti-semitic, largely as a by-product of their long-standing support for the Palestinian cause. I deplore that anti-semitism and unless and until they address it, it makes it very hard for me personally to consider voting Labour.
There is a total lack of emotional intelligence on Corbyn’s part in understanding the fear of Jews and an utter lack of willingness to listen - he wouldn’t even stay to listen to his own MPs describing their experience in Parliament - or attempt to do something about their concerns. There is a total lack of empathy.
Jews are not going to wait for pogroms. If they don’t feel safe, they will go. As they have in France, for instance. An intelligent humane genuine anti-racist would seek to address those fears and could easily do so while still maintaining his support for the Palestinian cause.
But I do not think - based on his actions and words - not just before he became leader but since then - that Corbyn is intelligent or humane or a genuine anti-racist. He postures. He does not think. And he is unable to put himself in the shoes of those he disagrees with or dislikes, hence his utter tone deafness to the feelings of the Jewish community in Britain.
if it happened it would be coming from the far-right, as always, the same far-right encouraged and fostered by your beloved Tories.
https://twitter.com/gerardbattenmep/status/1037285376539410434?s=21
I have no confidence that Corbyn takes at all seriously the first - and most important - duty of a Prime Minister, namely, to protect this country and its citizens from harm, whether it comes from internal or external threats. And it is not Tories or Lib Dems saying this but senior Labour members, with a much longer and more distinguished record of serving Labour and the country than an obscure backbencher who voted so often with the Tories it’s a wonder they didn’t offer him free membership.
https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1037447783593254913
https://twitter.com/MsHelicat/status/1037397808502976512
Filling in for laziness or stupidity is one thing but if it came to the president's staff actively working against decisions taken by a president then it gets into murkier waters if we are looking at the principle rather than just Trump himself.
Aside from anything else it won't help Trump supporters to come to a different opinion of Trump but give them a betrayal narrative.
BTW the travel ban was ultimately upheld by the courts.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emir
https://www.whitehouse.gov/briefings-statements/remarks-president-trump-amir-sheikh-sabah-al-ahmed-al-jaber-al-sabah-state-kuwait-expanded-bilateral-meeting/
A leader and a party that were serious about rooting out anti-semitism would not have a backlog of 000’s of cases and only one person dealing with the investigations. Any Labour member who felt like abusing Jews verbally knows that the chances of them ever being investigated let alone any disciplinary action being taken against them are pretty low. And they can always claim that they are exercising their right to free speech against Zionists and they would as likely as not get off.
So the practical result of Corbyn being militantly against anti-semitism is, in reality, the square root of sod all.
The Abbasid (in theory still universal) Caliph Ar-Radi created the post of Amir al-Umara ("Amir of the Amirs") for Ibn Raik; the title was used in various Islamic monarchies;
If the individual (or his/her associates described in the article are cabinet members, they will have sworn the following:: “I... do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States...”
If the President is truly incapable of fulfilling his role, then the remedy is the 25th Amendment. The actions described in the article are effectively usurpation of the office of the Presidency.
I take the point about loopy bosses, and the thought of a White House stuffed only by Sebastian Gorkas is certainly scary, but anonymous op eds in the NYT are not a viable remedy.
Given the evidence we have from polling and such I would suggest the only way to say Corbyn and Labour have suffered from this electorally is if they would have surged ahead without it. I don't think they would have.
https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2018/09/this-is-a-constitutional-crisis/569443/
But what the author has just done is throw the government of the United States into even more dangerous turmoil. He or she has enflamed the paranoia of the president and empowered the president’s willfulness....
...The new Bob Woodward book set the bad precedent. The high official who thought the president so addled that he would not remember the paper he snatched off his desk? Those who thought the president stupid, ignorant, beholden to Russia—and then exited the administration to return to their comfortable, lucrative occupations? Who substituted deep-background gripe sessions with a reporter for offering detailed proof of presidential unfitness, or worse, before the House or Senate? Yes, better than the robotic servility of the public record. But only slightly...
It now behooves Europeans to say to their British partners that by cutting corners, playing with fire, lying to voters and allies, avoiding history, and shrinking from their own greatness, they, too, risk winding up with both—this time both Brexit and Jeremy Corbyn.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cy_Kws0wdX4
Where they could get allies is in those who see Sanders as a threat for example or similar politicians across Europe within their own countries. Although this just ends up looking a bit like what it is, partisan.
So the news that he has introduced his own backbench legislation to charge people to see their GP is in no way contradictory
(Seriously: is he mental? Not in the insulty way, but is-there-something-actually-wrong-with-him ? This isn't the actions of a coherent individual)
I've been thinking this for a while.
Where are our champions of liberalism? We're being over-run by half-witted populists.