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SystemSystem Posts: 12,173
edited August 2018 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » ICM poll: Tories would be worse off if either BoJo or Moggsy succeeds TMay

Tories better off with May than any other leader, poll suggests | Politics | The Guardian https://t.co/gf5TKz7zs9

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  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    edited August 2018
    FPT: Tough call for the Tories: get Davidson in as an MP with a friendly retirement, but risk losing a raft of seats in Scotland. (Although maybe they would keep the appeal in Scotland if she was the Tory leader?)

    A Davidson leader/Javid deputy could - on paper - be an appealing double act. Probably touches more bases overall than Boris. (Still worry that Javid as leader could be terminally dull....)
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    Interesting call about May’s premiership.
    I’m not entirely persuaded...
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487
    edited August 2018
    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 71,301
    (OT) I see Cohen’s lawyer has stated emphatically that Cohen would not accept a pardon, even if offered.
    He really has turned 180 degrees, and is going to do Trump as much damage as he is capable of.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    Nigelb said:

    Interesting call about May’s premiership.
    I’m not entirely persuaded...

    It understates the potential upside for May. If she can make the decisive call on a second referendum she could settle the division in the Tory party for good, and ultimately lead Britain into the Eurozone, oversee the peaceful reunification of Ireland, and become the indispensable figure of European politics over the next decade.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    She's still working her notice.....

    Theresa May will not fight the next election as PM.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    FPT
    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    Nigelb said:

    Interesting call about May’s premiership.
    I’m not entirely persuaded...

    It understates the potential upside for May. If she can make the decisive call on a second referendum she could settle the division in the Tory party for good, and ultimately lead Britain into the Eurozone, oversee the peaceful reunification of Ireland, and become the indispensable figure of European politics over the next decade.
    I dare some of our – shall we say – more reactionary brethren will consider that post to be barely veiled trolling...
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    FPT: Tough call for the Tories: get Davidson in as an MP with a friendly retirement, but risk losing a raft of seats in Scotland. (Although maybe they would keep the appeal in Scotland if she was the Tory leader?)

    A Davidson leader/Javid deputy could - on paper - be an appealing double act. Probably touches more bases overall than Boris. (Still worry that Javid as leader could be terminally dull....)

    A lot of people might welcome dull.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, it’s a lacklustre selection. The Conservatives need a leader who can take them beyond Brexit. But it can’t be done and they don’t want one anyway.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    She's still working her notice.....

    Theresa May will not fight the next election as PM.

    She may not wish to and, if she doesn't, that will set her free from the ideologues.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    I do hope there’s enough popcorn to last for Conference season this year. Every single party seems riven by internal splits and dissatisfaction with their own leadership.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 42,992
    edited August 2018
    o/t

    Interesting article on Brexit and financial services.

    https://thetradenews.com/financial-firms-searching-control-amid-brexit-chaos/

    tl/dr: London will remain the European financial services Capital but will continue to lose business at the margin.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220
    edited August 2018
    So the mythical wonderkid who we can project all our hopes and dreams onto leads the polling ? Who knew

    In reality this is a very good poll for May.
  • AnazinaAnazina Posts: 3,487

    FPT: Tough call for the Tories: get Davidson in as an MP with a friendly retirement, but risk losing a raft of seats in Scotland. (Although maybe they would keep the appeal in Scotland if she was the Tory leader?)

    A Davidson leader/Javid deputy could - on paper - be an appealing double act. Probably touches more bases overall than Boris. (Still worry that Javid as leader could be terminally dull....)

    A lot of people might welcome dull.
    Dull and sensible would be fine by me.

    Great to see that the odious Boris and the risible Rees are unpopular.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Scott_P said:
    Can anyone here explain how attourney/client privilege works in the USA? It seems amazing that a lawyer can mouth off about his client to anyone who’ll listen, in order to try and save his own ass from the big house.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,220

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Pulpstar said:

    So the mythical wonderkid who we can project all our hopes and dreams onto leads the polling ? Who knew

    In reality this is a very good poll for May.

    Sajid Javid?
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    Can anyone here explain how attourney/client privilege works in the USA? It seems amazing that a lawyer can mouth off about his client to anyone who’ll listen, in order to try and save his own ass from the big house.
    Another indicator of Trumps lack of EQ. What that post actually says is "I used this guy for years and now I am saying he isn't any good. What do you think about my lack of judgement?"
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    The only way May stays on is if the Tory Party is so broken by a fucked up Brexit outcome that no-one wants to throw their hat in the ring - and so own the coming 1997-level loss. She might as well stay and own that.

    Ironically, if she engineers a half-way decent Brexit outcome then people will want to be the one to replace her. The whole Party has scar-tissue from that 2017 campaign. "Never again...."
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    An amusing post. Much as I think Brexit is an unmitigated disaster that is mainly the fault of the Tories, I think (hope) Corbyn has a big uphill battle to form a government. A different leader of Labour would be in a very different position
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
  • Tissue_PriceTissue_Price Posts: 9,039
    Pulpstar said:

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
    They're mostly going to get deselected anyway.
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    Surprised to see Jeremy Hunt is so unpopular.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Pulpstar said:

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
    The options haven’t really changed since 2015. And still they dither.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    Can anyone here explain how attourney/client privilege works in the USA? It seems amazing that a lawyer can mouth off about his client to anyone who’ll listen, in order to try and save his own ass from the big house.
    This came up on Google:

    "The attorney-client privilege protects most communications between clients and their lawyers. But, according to the crime-fraud exception to the privilege, a client's communication to her attorney isn't privileged if she made it with the intention of committing or covering up a crime or fraud."

    That would seem to explain it.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    edited August 2018

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    Surprised to see Jeremy Hunt is so unpopular.
    Because he generated so much love whilst running the NHS.....
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    The only way May stays on is if the Tory Party is so broken by a fucked up Brexit outcome that no-one wants to throw their hat in the ring - and so own the coming 1997-level loss. She might as well stay and own that.

    Ironically, if she engineers a half-way decent Brexit outcome then people will want to be the one to replace her. The whole Party has scar-tissue from that 2017 campaign. "Never again...."
    A credible analysis, except suggesting that Corbyn has the ability to reach a broad constituency as Labour did in 97. It isn't going to happen.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    Surprised to see Jeremy Hunt is so unpopular.
    Former Health Secretary, in charge of multiple crises of inadequate beds and shortages of medicines?

    Former Culture Secretary who had cosy little arrangements with the Murdoch press just before half of his key staff were locked up for terminally stupid and dishonest?

    TBH I'm surprised he polls as well as he does.

    Actually, I could make the same comment for Gove. Did they ask Richard Tyndall and Dominic Cummings multiple times?
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,164
    edited August 2018

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
    They're mostly going to get deselected anyway.
    However, as long as the dissidents remain MPs next time they can cause serious trouble for any Corbyn led government unless he has a landslide.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Pulpstar said:

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
    If (as is being suggested) they remove the union umbrella protecting many long-term MPs from being deselected, that might well be the - and I use the phrase cautiously - the tipping point. At that point there is nothing to lose for a moderate or ex-Blairite.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    Surprised to see Jeremy Hunt is so unpopular.
    Because he generated so much love whilst running the NHS.....
    I think many people in the NHS saw him as competent and pro-NHS, which was a large improvement on his predecessors. He has also the advantage (and in stark contrast to Boris) that he has actually run a major department without too many cock-ups
  • Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,677



    A credible analysis, except suggesting that Corbyn has the ability to reach a broad constituency as Labour did in 97. It isn't going to happen.

    He doesn't need a 97 scale victory; a majority of 1 is all it will take. I also think the Shinners will take their seats if that's what it takes to get their lad in No. 10.

    After all they didn't take their seats in the Dail for 80 odd years until it was politically convenient...
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    Yes, it is difficult to imagine circumstances where the Labour party could have more open goals to aim at, but the captain of their team just stares at them and runs the ball in the other direction. It is this that gives succour to the loonies on the Tory side
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    Their last best hope is to use a crisis over the ratification of the withdrawal agreement to force a General Election.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    Surprised to see Jeremy Hunt is so unpopular.
    Because he generated so much love whilst running the NHS.....
    I think many people in the NHS saw him as competent and pro-NHS, which was a large improvement on his predecessors. He has also the advantage (and in stark contrast to Boris) that he has actually run a major department without too many cock-ups
    Any Tory running the NHS will be demonised from Day 1 to Termination Day. Whether that bile is diluted over time remains to be see in Hunt's case.

    cf. the Secretary of State for Education.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    One should never entirely dismiss a poll. They nearly always tell you something, even if it's not the headline summary.

    In this case, it's that whoever succeeds May has a job to do on their personal image. My guess would be that if it's someone like Gove, then his activism will overcome his time at Education (some while ago now), and his on-off Boris leadership bid, and he'll be judged on what he does. Hunt - who comes across more as a generic politician - has more of a problem IMO. Javid just needs to get known.

    To me, some key questions (off the top of my head) about whether someone is likely to make a good PM are:

    - When times get tough, do they hide or come out fighting?
    - Can they work in a team, particularly one in which they don't have absolute discretion to hire and fire?
    - Can they do detail? Media and opponents will test them.
    - Can they explain detail in ways that are simple?
    - Can they explain the big picture in ways that are simple?
    - Do they have a human touch?
    - Are they willing to take, and defend, tough decisions, or do they dither?
    - Do they have an understanding of what they want to achieve for the country as PM?

    I'm not going to assess all the potential candidates (or the current leaders of the various parties) against these criteria; suffice to say that the answers are not binary and selecting a leader means inevitably choosing someone who has weak spots as well as strengths.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    edited August 2018

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    The only way May stays on is if the Tory Party is so broken by a fucked up Brexit outcome that no-one wants to throw their hat in the ring - and so own the coming 1997-level loss. She might as well stay and own that.

    Ironically, if she engineers a half-way decent Brexit outcome then people will want to be the one to replace her. The whole Party has scar-tissue from that 2017 campaign. "Never again...."
    A credible analysis, except suggesting that Corbyn has the ability to reach a broad constituency as Labour did in 97. It isn't going to happen.
    The Tories losing massively as in 1997 doesn't HAVE to translate into a similar number of Labour seats as 1997. Scottish seats could go SNP; and the LibDems could see a huge revival in market-town England with a new leader and a fair wind.

    As said above, a Labour majority of one is enough for Corbyn. Except, unless there is a major clear-out by deselection/resignation, that "Labour" win in seats disguises the reality of at least two parties in a fractious coalition.....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
    If (as is being suggested) they remove the union umbrella protecting many long-term MPs from being deselected, that might well be the - and I use the phrase cautiously - the tipping point. At that point there is nothing to lose for a moderate or ex-Blairite.
    I’m watching for Corbyn’s tactical abstention of the boundary review, that will be the signal that the deselections are on.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313
    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
    If (as is being suggested) they remove the union umbrella protecting many long-term MPs from being deselected, that might well be the - and I use the phrase cautiously - the tipping point. At that point there is nothing to lose for a moderate or ex-Blairite.
    I’m watching for Corbyn’s tactical abstention of the boundary review, that will be the signal that the deselections are on.
    fair point. It is though, unlikely that the LDs would prop up PM Corbyn, and even questionable that moderate Labour figures would (assuming they haven't all been purged by then)
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    I fear you overlook Arthur Henderson.
  • Nigel_ForemainNigel_Foremain Posts: 14,313

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    The only way May stays on is if the Tory Party is so broken by a fucked up Brexit outcome that no-one wants to throw their hat in the ring - and so own the coming 1997-level loss. She might as well stay and own that.

    Ironically, if she engineers a half-way decent Brexit outcome then people will want to be the one to replace her. The whole Party has scar-tissue from that 2017 campaign. "Never again...."
    A credible analysis, except suggesting that Corbyn has the ability to reach a broad constituency as Labour did in 97. It isn't going to happen.
    The Tories losing massively as in 1997 doesn't HAVE to translate into a similar number of Labour seats as 1997. Scottish seats could go SNP; and the LibDems could see a huge revival in market-town England with a new leader and a fair wind.

    As said above, a Labour majority of one is enough for Corbyn. Except, unless there is a major clear-out by deselection/resignation, that "Labour" win in seats disguises the reality of at least two parties in a fractious coalition.....
    This is the post I MEANT to respond to with : fair point. It is though, unlikely that the LDs would prop up PM Corbyn, and even questionable that moderate Labour figures would (assuming they haven't all been purged by then)
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
    If (as is being suggested) they remove the union umbrella protecting many long-term MPs from being deselected, that might well be the - and I use the phrase cautiously - the tipping point. At that point there is nothing to lose for a moderate or ex-Blairite.
    I’m watching for Corbyn’s tactical abstention of the boundary review, that will be the signal that the deselections are on.
    If I follow your logic, you mean that Labour abstains, the changes go through as the Tories have been whipped like an 18th Century mutineer, and every constituency has a new MP which needs selecting, because new boundaries,

    Hmmm. Interesting. I think an abstention is a 10-1 shot, but nevertheless very interesting.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Scorecard from Scarborough.

    Yorkshire lose by an innings and a lot.

    A certain Mr Moeen Ali had second innings figures of 6/49 having scored 219 in Worcestershire's only innings.

    I have a feeling I know who's batting number 5 for England at Southampton.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    I fear you overlook Arthur Henderson.
    I'm not overlooking him.

    Corbyn's worse.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited August 2018

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    Their last best hope is to use a crisis over the ratification of the withdrawal agreement to force a General Election.
    Good afternoon Mr Glenn.

    Coming back to an earlier question of yours, in the event that May can’t get her Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons, these are the options from most to least favourable:

    1) Deal/No Deal referendum - closes down the issue, shuts up the zealots on either side and makes the public rather than the Tory Party responsible. No risk of Labour Government.

    2) General Election - Brexiteer backbenchers must fall into line due to threat of Corbyn, who in turn has nowhere to hide his opportunistic Brexit stance. Labour will be split wide open on Europe and the media will give them greater scrutiny. Likelihood of a Tory victory, if narrowly.

    3) Deal vs Remain - if she attempts this she will be deposed. There is no way this will happen unless Jeremy Corbyn forms a government with or without a General Election. Not sure the Tory rebels would take that chance.

    On-topic: this poll is great for May.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    edited August 2018
    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    Can anyone here explain how attourney/client privilege works in the USA? It seems amazing that a lawyer can mouth off about his client to anyone who’ll listen, in order to try and save his own ass from the big house.
    I think an attorney can't be forced by law enforcement to disclose conversations with a client, but nothing to stop them doing so voluntarily? Of course, doing such a thing would harm a client's case and do significant professional harm, but as a convicted felon Cohen has already lost his license to practice law.
  • Carolus_RexCarolus_Rex Posts: 1,414
    Anorak said:
    That's appalling, even for Trump.

    It's DISCREET dammit.

  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    Who was the last Opposition Leader to increase his party's vote share at a general election by circa 10% ? Probably Attlee in 1945 - though that was his second election as leader.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    I fear you overlook Arthur Henderson.
    At least Arthur actually DID win the Nobel Peace Prize :)
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,914
    Anorak said:
    For a moment I thought that Trump had a sense of humour.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited August 2018
    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    Who was the last Opposition Leader to increase his party's vote share at a general election by circa 10% ? Probably Attlee in 1945 - though that was his second election as leader.
    Tony Blair 1997 - from 34 to 43%.

    (Corbyn was just under 9 points)

    Ps I think you mean by ten points not 10%, otherwise that would be Cameron.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Anorak said:
    That's appalling, even for Trump.

    It's DISCREET dammit.

    What if he was looking for precisely one extramarital affair?


    ... I'll get my coat.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited August 2018

    Anorak said:
    For a moment I thought that Trump had a sense of humour.
    Given his earlier (genuine) tweet on Cohen I briefly thought it was real if rather damning.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:
    For a moment I thought that Trump had a sense of humour.
    Given his earlier (genuine) tweet on Cohen I briefly thought it was real if rather damning.
    MAGA - My Attorney Got Arrested.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 51,752
    edited August 2018
    RoyalBlue said:

    Good afternoon Mr Glenn.

    Coming back to an earlier question of yours, in the event that May can’t get her Withdrawal Agreement through the Commons, these are the options from most to least favourable:

    1) Deal/No Deal referendum - closes down the issue, shuts up the zealots on either side and makes the public rather than the Tory Party responsible. No risk of Labour Government.

    2) General Election - Brexiteer backbenchers must fall into line due to threat of Corbyn, who in turn has nowhere to hide his opportunistic Brexit stance. Labour will be split wide open on Europe and the media will give them greater scrutiny. Likelihood of a Tory victory, if narrowly.

    3) Deal vs Remain - if she attempts this she will be deposed. There is no way this will happen unless Jeremy Corbyn forms a government with or without a General Election. Not sure the Tory rebels would take that chance.

    Option 1 would be a Hobson's choice and would cause huge resentment and bitterness, and probably wouldn't even get through parliament.

    If it's Option 2, Corbyn only has to come off the fence to the extent of promising another referendum, which will put the Tories in a very difficult position - do they match that promise?

    Option 3 is the only option that boxes Corbyn into a corner (he'd be forced to support it through gritted teeth, even as it destroys his strategy), could therefore get through parliament, and would be seen as the right thing to do by the country.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:
    For a moment I thought that Trump had a sense of humour.
    Given his earlier (genuine) tweet on Cohen I briefly thought it was real if rather damning.
    MAGA - My Attorney Got Arrested.
    Manage a Guiltyplea Again?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited August 2018

    Sandpit said:

    Scott_P said:
    Can anyone here explain how attourney/client privilege works in the USA? It seems amazing that a lawyer can mouth off about his client to anyone who’ll listen, in order to try and save his own ass from the big house.
    I think an attorney can't be forced by law enforcement to disclose conversations with a client, but nothing to stop them doing so voluntarily? Of course, doing such a thing would harm a client's case and do significant professional harm, but as a convicted felon Cohen has already lost his license to practice law.
    Testimony from breaking privilege cannot be used as evidence in a trial. It would be excluded in a trice. There are exemptions (see my earlier comment) which seem to cover Cohen in this case.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    edited August 2018

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    The only way May stays on is if the Tory Party is so broken by a fucked up Brexit outcome that no-one wants to throw their hat in the ring - and so own the coming 1997-level loss. She might as well stay and own that.

    Ironically, if she engineers a half-way decent Brexit outcome then people will want to be the one to replace her. The whole Party has scar-tissue from that 2017 campaign. "Never again...."
    A credible analysis, except suggesting that Corbyn has the ability to reach a broad constituency as Labour did in 97. It isn't going to happen.
    The Tories losing massively as in 1997 doesn't HAVE to translate into a similar number of Labour seats as 1997. Scottish seats could go SNP; and the LibDems could see a huge revival in market-town England with a new leader and a fair wind.

    As said above, a Labour majority of one is enough for Corbyn. Except, unless there is a major clear-out by deselection/resignation, that "Labour" win in seats disguises the reality of at least two parties in a fractious coalition.....
    This is the post I MEANT to respond to with : fair point. It is though, unlikely that the LDs would prop up PM Corbyn, and even questionable that moderate Labour figures would (assuming they haven't all been purged by then)
    I was more considering a situation where the Tories get wiped out in Scotland by the SNP (and maybe Labour too, again), and the Tories lose many seats to the LibDems whilst not entirely crashing and burning to Labour. It would need a lot of the centre/centre left to find a) Labour unpalatable and b) the LibDems palatable. A vibrant new female LibDem leader and Corbyn? Possible....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    A vibrant new female LibDem leader and Corbyn? Possible....

    Aargh.

    That's conjured a mental image I could have done without.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    ydoethur said:

    A vibrant new female LibDem leader and Corbyn? Possible....

    Aargh.

    That's conjured a mental image I could have done without.
    I'm glad I'm not alone in seeing a bright young LD leader coerced into a threesome with Jeremy and Diane.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Mr. D, ha, I was considering a similar line, but you wrote it first.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    UK, ICM Poll:

    LAB-S&D: 40%
    CON-ECR: 40% (+1)
    LDEM-ALDE: 7%
    UKIP-EFDD: 6%
    Greens-G/EFA: 2% (-1)

    Field work: 17/08/18 – 19/08/18
    Sample size: 2,021"
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,773

    Anazina said:

    The Post piece is excellent @MikeSmithson, thank you for posting.

    I said on here the other day (to widespread mockery) that May has the chance to be remembered as a good PM if she can steer the Good Ship Britain away from the rocks in the face of the Brexiteer wreckers.

    Like those other underrated PMs of modern times – Major (NI), and Brown (GFC) – you sometimes just need one key success amid an otherwise deeply mediocre tenure for history to judge you more kindly.

    I think you could be right. I am beginning to think I might have underestimated her. The alternatives are either horrific (Boris the Clown, or Jacob the Nazi look-alike) or just no more exciting than she is. Although it is against the odds, I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience
    Ironically, if she engineers a half-way decent Brexit outcome then people will want to be the one to replace her. The whole Party has scar-tissue from that 2017 campaign. "Never again...."
    A credible analysis, except suggesting that Corbyn has the ability to reach a broad constituency as Labour did in 97. It isn't going to happen.
    As said above, a Labour majority of one is enough for Corbyn. Except, unless there is a major clear-out by deselection/resignation, that "Labour" win in seats disguises the reality of at least two parties in a fractious coalition.....
    This is the post I MEANT to respond to with : fair point. It is though, unlikely that the LDs would prop up PM Corbyn, and even questionable that moderate Labour figures would (assuming they haven't all been purged by then)
    I was more considering a situation where the Tories get wiped out in Scotland by the SNP (and maybe Labour too, again), and the Tories lose many seats to the LibDems whilst not entirely crashing and burning to Labour. It would need a lot of the centre/centre left to find a) Labour unpalatable and b) the LibDems palatable. A vibrant new female LibDem leader and Corbyn? Possible....
    Possible but unlikely. The lib dems just aren't anywhere in the publics imagination. Even with a new leader, they just won't make a splash. Things are just too tribal, and a Hard-core remainer would just as likely put people off as attract them.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    A vibrant new female LibDem leader and Corbyn? Possible....

    Aargh.

    That's conjured a mental image I could have done without.
    I'm glad I'm not alone in seeing a bright young LD leader coerced into a threesome with Jeremy and Diane.
    You were alone in that.

    Sadly, you've now conjured that image as well...
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    RobD said:

    Anorak said:
    That's appalling, even for Trump.

    It's DISCREET dammit.

    What if he was looking for precisely one extramarital affair?


    ... I'll get my coat.
    Your coat's the last thing you'll need.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    AndyJS said:

    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    UK, ICM Poll:

    LAB-S&D: 40%
    CON-ECR: 40% (+1)
    LDEM-ALDE: 7%
    UKIP-EFDD: 6%
    Greens-G/EFA: 2% (-1)

    Field work: 17/08/18 – 19/08/18
    Sample size: 2,021"

    Again - those 6% for UKIP will not have candidates. Best guess? They go 3% Tory, 1% Labour, 2% Can't Be Arsed Party.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    RobD said:

    Anorak said:
    That's appalling, even for Trump.

    It's DISCREET dammit.

    What if he was looking for precisely one extramarital affair?


    ... I'll get my coat.
    Your coat's the last thing you'll need.
    Traditionally actually a coffin is the last thing most of us need.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    Possible but unlikely. The lib dems just aren't anywhere in the publics imagination. Even with a new leader, they just won't make a splash. Things are just too tribal, and a Hard-core remainer would just as likely put people off as attract them.

    Certainly they are moribund under Vince. But with a new leader? And perhaps if they captured the national mood - "We see a Govt. that is sleep-walking on all aspects of governance apart from Brexit. We will no longer be bogged down with Brexit - we will talk to you about all the other failings that we would correct....the thing that worry you, day to day." A party for Life-beyond-Brexit.....
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    ydoethur said:

    RobD said:

    Anorak said:
    That's appalling, even for Trump.

    It's DISCREET dammit.

    What if he was looking for precisely one extramarital affair?


    ... I'll get my coat.
    Your coat's the last thing you'll need.
    Traditionally actually a coffin is the last thing most of us need.
    I'll get my shroud....?
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    edited August 2018
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    Who was the last Opposition Leader to increase his party's vote share at a general election by circa 10% ? Probably Attlee in 1945 - though that was his second election as leader.
    Tony Blair 1997 - from 34 to 43%.

    (Corbyn was just under 9 points)

    Ps I think you mean by ten points not 10%, otherwise that would be Cameron.
    Only in the sense that Base Rates have increased by 200% in the last year or so.

    You are relying on UK figures - and on that basis Labour's vote share in 2017 was 40% compared with 30.4% in 2015 - an increase of 9.6%.In 1997 , Labour's vote share was 43.2% compared with 34.4% in 1992.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,814
    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:
    For a moment I thought that Trump had a sense of humour.
    Given his earlier (genuine) tweet on Cohen I briefly thought it was real if rather damning.
    MAGA - My Attorney Got Arrested.
    Manage a Guiltyplea Again?
    "My attorney's guilty! Aaargh!" ?

    "Mexico: able grant asylum?" (needs a 'to' really)

    "Multiple administration guilty affirmations"?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    Anorak said:
    For a moment I thought that Trump had a sense of humour.
    Given his earlier (genuine) tweet on Cohen I briefly thought it was real if rather damning.
    MAGA - My Attorney Got Arrested.
    Manage a Guiltyplea Again?
    "My attorney's guilty! Aaargh!" ?

    "Mexico: able grant asylum?" (needs a 'to' really)

    "Multiple administration guilty affirmations"?
    Massive Awesome Greatfuck again?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    edited August 2018
    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    Who was the last Opposition Leader to increase his party's vote share at a general election by circa 10% ? Probably Attlee in 1945 - though that was his second election as leader.
    Tony Blair 1997 - from 34 to 43%.

    (Corbyn was just under 9 points)

    Ps I think you mean by ten points not 10%, otherwise that would be Cameron.
    Only in the sense that Base Rates have increased by 200% in the last year or so.

    You are relying on UK figures - and on that basis Labour's vote share in 2017 was 40% compared with 30.4% in 2015 - an increase of 9.6%.In 1997 , Labour's vote share was 43.2% compared with 34.4% in 1992.
    They have.

    Didn't you notice?

    Edit - actually it was 39.99%, which gives a rise of 9.5 against 8.8 in 1997. They seem roughly comparable to me.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:

    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    UK, ICM Poll:

    LAB-S&D: 40%
    CON-ECR: 40% (+1)
    LDEM-ALDE: 7%
    UKIP-EFDD: 6%
    Greens-G/EFA: 2% (-1)

    Field work: 17/08/18 – 19/08/18
    Sample size: 2,021"

    Again - those 6% for UKIP will not have candidates. Best guess? They go 3% Tory, 1% Labour, 2% Can't Be Arsed Party.
    Interesting that the polls haven't changed all that much compared to August 1988, when ICM recorded figures of Con 45%, Lab 41%, LD 11%, Others 3%:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oHcxlAbkTJmqfOxYQM22cvjjjRf5pETIF30x7L-qybc/edit#gid=0
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    Corbyn is not PM now. If you think the current government should impose tougher sanctions or be declared unfit ... ah, but the former Foreign Secretary has been.
  • Pulpstar said:

    So the mythical wonderkid who we can project all our hopes and dreams onto leads the polling ? Who knew

    In reality this is a very good poll for May.

    George Osborne CH.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    Corbyn is not PM now. If you think the current government should impose tougher sanctions or be declared unfit ... ah, but the former Foreign Secretary has been.
    You can only be unfit to be PM if you are PM?
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    Corbyn is not PM now. If you think the current government should impose tougher sanctions or be declared unfit ... ah, but the former Foreign Secretary has been.
    Boris actually secured that concerted international opprobrium that has been heaped on Russia. For using military grade nerve agent on our soil.

    Has Corbyn accepted that yet?

    As I said - Corbyn is unfit to be PM. I note you don't demur.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426
    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    justin124 said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    Who was the last Opposition Leader to increase his party's vote share at a general election by circa 10% ? Probably Attlee in 1945 - though that was his second election as leader.
    Tony Blair 1997 - from 34 to 43%.

    (Corbyn was just under 9 points)

    Ps I think you mean by ten points not 10%, otherwise that would be Cameron.
    Only in the sense that Base Rates have increased by 200% in the last year or so.

    You are relying on UK figures - and on that basis Labour's vote share in 2017 was 40% compared with 30.4% in 2015 - an increase of 9.6%.In 1997 , Labour's vote share was 43.2% compared with 34.4% in 1992.
    They have.

    Didn't you notice?

    Edit - actually it was 39.99%, which gives a rise of 9.5 against 8.8 in 1997. They seem roughly comparable to me.
    In a sense of course this argument is rather sterile. The question isn't vote share, it's swing. And Corbyn barely managed a swing towards him - a measly 2%. By contrast Thatcher managed 5%, Wilson over 3% (for a majority of 4) Blair 10% and Attlee a barely believable 12%.

    This is of course because although he Labour vote went up substantially so did the Tory vote. Until Corbyn finds a way to get direct switchers, he can't win.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 54,631
    Anorak said:

    Sandpit said:

    Anorak said:

    Pulpstar said:

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Oh they keep saying they'll quit, but but but they know just how strong that Labour brand name is when it comes to re-election.
    If (as is being suggested) they remove the union umbrella protecting many long-term MPs from being deselected, that might well be the - and I use the phrase cautiously - the tipping point. At that point there is nothing to lose for a moderate or ex-Blairite.
    I’m watching for Corbyn’s tactical abstention of the boundary review, that will be the signal that the deselections are on.
    If I follow your logic, you mean that Labour abstains, the changes go through as the Tories have been whipped like an 18th Century mutineer, and every constituency has a new MP which needs selecting, because new boundaries,

    Hmmm. Interesting. I think an abstention is a 10-1 shot, but nevertheless very interesting.
    Yes, that’s exactly my thinking. I think it’s more like 2/1 than 10/1 though, and it could be done in a subtle manner with an Islington Friends of Palestine meeting scheduled for the same time that takes half a dozen MPs away from Parliament.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    RobD said:

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    Corbyn is not PM now. If you think the current government should impose tougher sanctions or be declared unfit ... ah, but the former Foreign Secretary has been.
    You can only be unfit to be PM if you are PM?
    You can only impose sanctions if you are in government, which Corbyn is not. If the test for unfitness is tougher sanctions than those already imposed, then surely the government is unfit -- but since the former FS is Boris, that might not be a controversial view.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Europe Elects
    @EuropeElects

    UK, ICM Poll:

    LAB-S&D: 40%
    CON-ECR: 40% (+1)
    LDEM-ALDE: 7%
    UKIP-EFDD: 6%
    Greens-G/EFA: 2% (-1)

    Field work: 17/08/18 – 19/08/18
    Sample size: 2,021"

    Again - those 6% for UKIP will not have candidates. Best guess? They go 3% Tory, 1% Labour, 2% Can't Be Arsed Party.
    Interesting that the polls haven't changed all that much compared to August 1988, when ICM recorded figures of Con 45%, Lab 41%, LD 11%, Others 3%:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1oHcxlAbkTJmqfOxYQM22cvjjjRf5pETIF30x7L-qybc/edit#gid=0
    Back in August 1988, Labour was in a leadership contest between Kinnock and Benn.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 59,936

    RobD said:

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    Corbyn is not PM now. If you think the current government should impose tougher sanctions or be declared unfit ... ah, but the former Foreign Secretary has been.
    You can only be unfit to be PM if you are PM?
    You can only impose sanctions if you are in government, which Corbyn is not. If the test for unfitness is tougher sanctions than those already imposed, then surely the government is unfit -- but since the former FS is Boris, that might not be a controversial view.
    Despite not being in government he can still have a view on the matter.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    He must not get into 10 Downing Street. Brexit will be a cakewalk compared to leaving NATO and the end of our defence and intelligence relationship with the US.
  • MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 52,628

    RobD said:

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    Corbyn is not PM now. If you think the current government should impose tougher sanctions or be declared unfit ... ah, but the former Foreign Secretary has been.
    You can only be unfit to be PM if you are PM?
    You can only impose sanctions if you are in government, which Corbyn is not. If the test for unfitness is tougher sanctions than those already imposed, then surely the government is unfit -- but since the former FS is Boris, that might not be a controversial view.
    The US is a "huge player on the world stage".

    On that basis, we can assume that Corbyn is very relaxed about eveything that Donald Trump does or will do? And will never call for sanctions?

    Right.

    Your party is led by a laughing stock.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,751
    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    I fear you overlook Arthur Henderson.
    At least Arthur actually DID win the Nobel Peace Prize :)
    Fair point, though not one of the awards that looks that great in retrospect.

    But that was achieved when out of UK office. His period of 'leadership', while not even an MP in 1931-2, cannot be considered to have been effective.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    Corbyn is not PM now. If you think the current government should impose tougher sanctions or be declared unfit ... ah, but the former Foreign Secretary has been.
    You can only be unfit to be PM if you are PM?
    You can only impose sanctions if you are in government, which Corbyn is not. If the test for unfitness is tougher sanctions than those already imposed, then surely the government is unfit -- but since the former FS is Boris, that might not be a controversial view.
    Despite not being in government he can still have a view on the matter.
    The government has not imposed tougher sanctions than the government has imposed. If the test is whether sanctions should be tougher, then the government fails.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    RobD said:

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    Corbyn is not PM now. If you think the current government should impose tougher sanctions or be declared unfit ... ah, but the former Foreign Secretary has been.
    You can only be unfit to be PM if you are PM?
    You can only impose sanctions if you are in government, which Corbyn is not. If the test for unfitness is tougher sanctions than those already imposed, then surely the government is unfit -- but since the former FS is Boris, that might not be a controversial view.
    The US is a "huge player on the world stage".

    On that basis, we can assume that Corbyn is very relaxed about eveything that Donald Trump does or will do? And will never call for sanctions?

    Right.

    Your party is led by a laughing stock.
    It is not my party and tbh I very much doubt a future Labour government or a future Conservative one will impose sanctions against the United States.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 71,426

    Anorak said:

    ydoethur said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    I wouldn't be surprised to see her fight the next election. The one thing you can say for her is that she has pretty serious resilience

    She definitely will. She's not going to spend 5 year hip deep in Brexit scented shit to hand the duty of being beaten by Corbyn to somebody else.
    Corbyn can't beat her.

    It's astonishing, but there you are. He is the most divisive and ineffectual leader of the opposition since Harcourt, so his inabaility to become PM even when he's dealt the political equivalent of five aces should come as no surprise.
    I fear you overlook Arthur Henderson.
    At least Arthur actually DID win the Nobel Peace Prize :)
    Fair point, though not one of the awards that looks that great in retrospect.

    But that was achieved when out of UK office. His period of 'leadership', while not even an MP in 1931-2, cannot be considered to have been effective.
    But he wasn't given the equivalent of an open goal, 22 supporting players, a biased referee and a ball that becomes leaden when the opposition kick it.

    Quite the reverse, in fact.

    Nor was he so divisive a figure.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892
    Vote for Mr/Ms Other! Better than all the other options.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 53,892

    FPT

    Scott_P said:
    In the words of Tracy Chapman and Primo Levi, if not now, when?
    Absolutely love that Tracy Chapman song. But it won't be now. It would just be too chaotic.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    RoyalBlue said:

    Comrade Corbyn doesn't want new sanctions on Russia: https://twitter.com/keiranpedley/status/1032263920550137858

    Quelle surprise.

    "Jeremy Corbyn has refused to endorse calls for the UK to follow the United States and impose tougher sanctions on Russia, describing it as a "huge player on the world stage"."

    Well, there's a free pass for Putin - for anything.

    Jeremy Corbyn. Unfit to be PM.
    He must not get into 10 Downing Street. Brexit will be a cakewalk compared to leaving NATO and the end of our defence and intelligence relationship with the US.
    It is not Labour policy to leave NATO or end our defence and intelligence relationship with the US. Is this the pb equivalent of push polling? Ascribe an absurd policy to your opponents and ask who will support it? Labour spent above the 2% guideline and it is the Conservatives who have decimated our armed forces.
This discussion has been closed.