Labour's complaint to IPSO is looking even more ill-advised.
What chance page 1 non-apologies from the papers concerned, saying they were bang on the money with their stories?
Ah but if Labour win the next GE, then press and media regulation will come in, and be enforced. The press and media better start thinking about this, being in the last chance saloon may not be the best place to be..
Just look at the comments underneath that. It's like someone has turned over a stone and all the unpleasant people at the edge of the left are scurrying about
Labour's complaint to IPSO is looking even more ill-advised.
What chance page 1 non-apologies from the papers concerned, saying they were bang on the money with their stories?
Ah but if Labour win the next GE, then press and media regulation will come in, and be enforced. The press and media better start thinking about this, being in the last chance saloon may not be the best place to be..
Just look at the comments underneath that. It's like someone has turned over a stone and all the unpleasant people at the edge of the left are scurrying about
i.e. I know longer care about the holocaust, because its denial by a lot of my fellow lab members is becoming an issue on the road to Jezza's glorious tenure of Downing Street.
FFS, leave. Break away. Do it. Stop talking about how bad it is. Act.
Eh, I suppose eventually a couple of Tory MPs had the balls to leave for UKIP (and I very much doubt they were the only ones who wanted to), so maybe we'll get a couple, but this lot seem to have never ending tolerance despite declaring that enough is enough. If they aren't prepared to cut loose from the party I get it, I really do (fighting from within is not inherently unreasonable), but if so they could stop signalling their virtue about how mad they are all the time.
Really it is astonishing. Not being involved with Labour I had no idea how far and deep the anti-semite thing has become. It is incredible. How many years has this been festering on the left?
It is now Blair=Iraq War= Basically a Tory = Jew=Banker=Elite=Block to Jezza = Shoah wasn't too bad folks.
Sam Curran Batting average 36.8 Bowling average 23.5
Ben Stokes Batting average 34.3 Bowling average 33.0
Stuart Broad Batting average 19.8 Bowling average 28.8
Get the feeling that the English cricket management pick their mates ?
Maybe, and there are questions to raise about the selection, but is comparing averages like really that fair when Curran only has 3 tests to his name? I'd have gone with him based on his performances, but rolling out the numbers like that isn't compelling due to the limited data.
On data Curran deserves to play and on performances he deserves to play.
Add on future potential - England are clearly going to win the series - so why not let Curran show what he's capable of.
What Curran doesn't have yet is either the 'big name' nor being 'one of the gang'.
Which is why I said I'd have picked him. But the averages comparison is not determinative on that.
It's also about roles and balancing the attack and side. Curran, brilliant young player that he is, probably isn't quick enough to get wickets if it doesn't swing much and the deck is slow and flat - certainly at this stage of his career. It took Anderson another three or four years to develop his skills to become a really potent test swing bowler. Therefore he's really competing for a place with Woakes. Stokes is basically the third strike bowler - he's quick and aggressive enough to get wickets if the ball is doing naff all. Jimmy is a master when it swings, Broad does a bit of both but these days is quite streaky. I'd have probably picked Curran over Woakes (harsh as it is to drop someone after a ton) as the the kid really can bat, and having a left-armer just gives you a different weapon. But it's a nice problem to have and no one should really care either way in cricketing terms.
Curran's time will come though. I'm guessing the theory is that the management know he's got time on his side and if they have the options, at 20, there's no need to play him constantly until he has the inevitable bad game and loses confidence. Leave him in an around the team and let him learn - he's well ahead of schedule and will get plenty of opportunities either on tour or when there's an injury or loss of form. He'll only be about 22-23 when Jimmy calls it a day!
FFS, leave. Break away. Do it. Stop talking about how bad it is. Act.
Eh, I suppose eventually a couple of Tory MPs had the balls to leave for UKIP (and I very much doubt they were the only ones who wanted to), so maybe we'll get a couple, but this lot seem to have never ending tolerance despite declaring that enough is enough. If they aren't prepared to cut loose from the party I get it, I really do (fighting from within is not inherently unreasonable), but if so they could stop signalling their virtue about how mad they are all the time.
In fairness 2 have left Labour, but it hardly feels noteworthy, as one was over things nothing to do with the party's direction it seems, and the other it kind of was, but they already seemed practically an independent.
Funny how being a malcontent is a bad thing now the old malcontents are in charge.
Interesting to hear on here the other day that apparently Williamson used to seem pretty unremarkable pre2015. Losing his seat seems to really have shaken him up, or maybe he is just that committed to the person who helped him regain it.
FFS, leave. Break away. Do it. Stop talking about how bad it is. Act.
Eh, I suppose eventually a couple of Tory MPs had the balls to leave for UKIP (and I very much doubt they were the only ones who wanted to), so maybe we'll get a couple, but this lot seem to have never ending tolerance despite declaring that enough is enough. If they aren't prepared to cut loose from the party I get it, I really do (fighting from within is not inherently unreasonable), but if so they could stop signalling their virtue about how mad they are all the time.
It's an entirely different situation though. Rightly or wrongly non-Corbynite, Labour MPs feel they have a duty to stay and fight because they have colleagues and members who they have to fight for -appalled as they are. They won't jump until they really do feel the party has truly reached the point of no return - and those who stand with them feel the same. You still have a Jewish Labour Movement who are vocal in how appalled they are but want people on the left to stay or join in solidarity rather than sod off and leave Labour entirely to the lunatic cranks.
Now, some MPs almost certainly are close to breaking point - but unlike the UKIP Tories, whose aim was basically to scare Cameron into doing exactly what he ended up doing - Labour MPs have to consider whether quitting is abandoning their post in the fight or a true call to arms. Doing say, a Tristam Hunt is as utterly ineffectual, if not more so as getting angry within Labour and continuing to call Corbyn out. At least for the moment.
Or, to put it another way - if you think Corbynism is an abomination that has enabled racism, you have to defeat it and marginalise it somehow on the left. The only thing worse than the current situation is taking up arms when you're going to lose and leave the battlefield entirely to the awful individuals currently in the ascendancy. You may know you need to break out of the salient - but it's a question of how and when to do so - and when you absolutely have to.
It has been noted that Corbyn can't be shamed into anything. He is not ashamed of anything he has done, however repugnant.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
FFS, leave. Break away. Do it. Stop talking about how bad it is. Act.
Eh, I suppose eventually a couple of Tory MPs had the balls to leave for UKIP (and I very much doubt they were the only ones who wanted to), so maybe we'll get a couple, but this lot seem to have never ending tolerance despite declaring that enough is enough. If they aren't prepared to cut loose from the party I get it, I really do (fighting from within is not inherently unreasonable), but if so they could stop signalling their virtue about how mad they are all the time.
It's an entirely different situation though. Rightly or wrongly non-Corbynite, Labour MPs feel they have a duty to stay and fight because they have colleagues and members who they have to fight for -appalled as they are. They won't jump until they really do feel the party has truly reached the point of no return - and those who stand with them feel the same. You still have a Jewish Labour Movement who are vocal in how appalled they are but want people on the left to stay or join in solidarity rather than sod off and leave Labour entirely to the lunatic cranks.
Now, some MPs almost certainly are close to breaking point - but unlike the UKIP Tories, whose aim was basically to scare Cameron into doing exactly what he ended up doing - Labour MPs have to consider whether quitting is abandoning their post in the fight or a true call to arms. Doing say, a Tristam Hunt is as utterly ineffectual, if not more so as getting angry within Labour and continuing to call Corbyn out. At least for the moment.
Many years ago Labour used to be the party of the working man, now it is the party of ponces.
It has been noted that Corbyn can't be shamed into anything. He is not ashamed of anything he has done, however repugnant.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
It should be remembered how close the Liberal-SDP Alliance came to winning power. They polled 40-50% through the autumn and early winter of 1981-2. Who knows how events might have panned out but for the Falklands - or, for that matter, had Britain lost.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
It has been noted that Corbyn can't be shamed into anything. He is not ashamed of anything he has done, however repugnant.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
John Woodcock
He was kind of already on the outs, unique in that he flat out said he couldn't countenance Corbyn as PM prior to election. Clearly unique, and left under a cloud of investigation. No one seems particular keen to follow him and O'Mara into the wilderness.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
"A centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit"
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
"A centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit"
So the EU want economic Armageddon for Europe. And some people think we should stay in their club?
Brexit means Brexit.
There's nothing clever in that phrase. Not in those who coined it, and not in those who think they are throwing in back in someone else's face. It pretends inevitability of specific outcomes, when even if certain ones were and are more likely and people, like me for instance, should have been more cognizant of that, are still not inevitable so as a retort it is just bloody silly.
It has been noted that Corbyn can't be shamed into anything. He is not ashamed of anything he has done, however repugnant.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
IIRC in 1981 all three Islington Labour MPs and a majority of Islington councillors joined the SDP.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
"A centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit"
What is your logic for that statement?
Oops. I meant "strongly pro-Remain on Brexit".
I really do not believe that Brexit is a sufficiently salient issue on which to build significant support for any new party.
So the EU want economic Armageddon for Europe. And some people think we should stay in their club?
Brexit means Brexit.
There's nothing clever in that phrase. Not in those who coined it, and not in those who think they are throwing in back in someone else's face. It pretends inevitability of specific outcomes, when even if certain ones were and are more likely and people, like me for instance, should have been more cognizant of that, are still not inevitable so as a retort it is just bloody silly.
You cancel your gym membership don't complain that you're not allowed in the gym anymore.
It should be remembered how close the Liberal-SDP Alliance came to winning power. They polled 40-50% through the autumn and early winter of 1981-2. Who knows how events might have panned out but for the Falklands - or, for that matter, had Britain lost.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
Indeed, as I've recounted on here before, I remember canvassing in midwinter 1982 down a very Conservative street in Bromley as an early sighter for the local elections due that May and I couldn't believe how soft the Conservative vote was - in truth, it had disintegrated to the SDP.
We'll never know - some claim the Conservatives would have won in 1984 on the back of an improving economy - maybe but I can't see a 144-seat landslide. Had the majority been very small or non-existent, the radical policies of the second term would never have been enacted.
It has been noted that Corbyn can't be shamed into anything. He is not ashamed of anything he has done, however repugnant.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
It should be remembered how close the Liberal-SDP Alliance came to winning power. They polled 40-50% through the autumn and early winter of 1981-2. Who knows how events might have panned out but for the Falklands - or, for that matter, had Britain lost.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
The timing of any breakaway is important, and one reason why we should not expect a split before 2021.
Too soon before a GE and any bandwagon surge of support for a new party risks running out of steam. Compare the timing and fate of the SDP with En Marche; 2 years ahead of a GE is perhaps too early - 1 year ahead seemed to work.
It has been noted that Corbyn can't be shamed into anything. He is not ashamed of anything he has done, however repugnant.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
It should be remembered how close the Liberal-SDP Alliance came to winning power. They polled 40-50% through the autumn and early winter of 1981-2. Who knows how events might have panned out but for the Falklands - or, for that matter, had Britain lost.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
The timing of any breakaway is important, and one reason why we should not expect a split before 2021.
Too soon before a GE and any bandwagon surge of support for a new party risks running out of steam. Compare the timing and fate of the SDP with En Marche; 2 years ahead of a GE is perhaps too early - 1 year ahead seemed to work.
The problem is that in this unstable climate an election could happen by accident at anytime.
Labour mps have a huge decision to take and it needs courage but they will end up in the abyss with Corbyn if they are not careful
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
"A centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit"
What is your logic for that statement?
Oops. I meant "strongly pro-Remain on Brexit".
Depends when it is formed. If some kind of a deal is reached it might be better to accept it and take a "reform if necessary" position. The main thing is to get a pragmatic anti-ideology "sensible" party that hasn't got the unpleasant outlook of some Tories (variously the Nationalist, reactionary and self-satisfied git groupings) and which can really combat the deranged sharlatan programme of Corbyn / McDonnell. Needs some optimistic fresh thinking on employment, tax, welfare and wealth creation and distribution. I'm probably in if a new party is launched. (Not if it is too late period Blair though!)
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
It should be remembered how close the Liberal-SDP Alliance came to winning power. They polled 40-50% through the autumn and early winter of 1981-2. Who knows how events might have panned out but for the Falklands - or, for that matter, had Britain lost.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
The timing of any breakaway is important, and one reason why we should not expect a split before 2021.
Too soon before a GE and any bandwagon surge of support for a new party risks running out of steam. Compare the timing and fate of the SDP with En Marche; 2 years ahead of a GE is perhaps too early - 1 year ahead seemed to work.
The problem is that in this unstable climate an election could happen by accident at anytime.
Labour mps have a huge decision to take and it needs courage but they will end up in the abyss with Corbyn if they are not careful
I cannot see how 'an election could happen by accident at any time' given the FTPA Big_G.
So the EU want economic Armageddon for Europe. And some people think we should stay in their club?
I asume the same would happen in French, Irish, Dutch and other EU ports.
The voters across Europe would be furious with the political classes, not just in the UK
Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha. Big and Sad, Your posts made me laugh. They are all still there, one united team clubbing together, helping each other out through the tough times ahead. The idea us on the outside all mean aggressive and competing against them brings Armageddon upon them, that’s fantasy. Because, and I will keep repeating this fact until the penny drops, key and vital trade for us with our nearest neighbours did not begin when we joined EEC in seventies, or EU in nineties, it’s been there since year dot. Being at the top table of EU for so long merely twisted and bastardised our economies dependency on EU commerce, not originated it.
So the EU want economic Armageddon for Europe. And some people think we should stay in their club?
Brexit means Brexit.
There's nothing clever in that phrase. Not in those who coined it, and not in those who think they are throwing in back in someone else's face. It pretends inevitability of specific outcomes, when even if certain ones were and are more likely and people, like me for instance, should have been more cognizant of that, are still not inevitable so as a retort it is just bloody silly.
It's a product of the world we now live in. Many people can't cope with anything other than short-speak; not that I'm suggesting that that applies to PBers!
So the EU want economic Armageddon for Europe. And some people think we should stay in their club?
I asume the same would happen in French, Irish, Dutch and other EU ports.
The voters across Europe would be furious with the political classes, not just in the UK
There will be a deal (I think). No Deal was only invented to avoid facing up to the fact that a vote for Leave was a vote for an arrangement on the EU's terms, necessarily worse than what we had before.
It has been noted that Corbyn can't be shamed into anything. He is not ashamed of anything he has done, however repugnant.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
It should be remembered how close the Liberal-SDP Alliance came to winning power. They polled 40-50% through the autumn and early winter of 1981-2. Who knows how events might have panned out but for the Falklands - or, for that matter, had Britain lost.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
Too soon before a GE and any bandwagon surge of support for a new party risks running out of steam. .
The problem is that in this unstable climate an election could happen by accident at anytime.
Labour mps have a huge decision to take and it needs courage but they will end up in the abyss with Corbyn if they are not careful
Only compulsory reselection would be a catalyst for major defections IMO.
Can see a Tory split coming post No Deal or BINO though
It has been noted that Corbyn can't be shamed into anything. He is not ashamed of anything he has done, however repugnant.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
Too many of the usual suspects are known, and this time, the clp's are ready and waiting for the MP's to flounce. Prospective candidates are waiting in the wings - after all, it will be a lot easier than going through the deselection procedure if the CCP deselect themselves.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
Yes, well, I'm sure the Conservatives are hoping for a schism on the model of the SDP because that will effectively give them another decade in power.
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
It should be remembered how close the Liberal-SDP Alliance came to winning power. They polled 40-50% through the autumn and early winter of 1981-2. Who knows how events might have panned out but for the Falklands - or, for that matter, had Britain lost.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
Too soon before a GE and any bandwagon surge of support for a new party risks running out of steam. .
The problem is that in this unstable climate an election could happen by accident at anytime.
Labour mps have a huge decision to take and it needs courage but they will end up in the abyss with Corbyn if they are not careful
Only compulsory reselection would be a catalyst for major defections IMO.
Can see a Tory split coming post No Deal or BINO though
Interesting view BJO. Do you think compulsory reselection is a possibility?
Only compulsory reselection would be a catalyst for major defections IMO.
Can see a Tory split coming post No Deal or BINO though
Interesting view BJO. Do you think compulsory reselection is a possibility?
I posted last week that I got polled by the Conservative party (for the first time ever) about my local MP and was asked if I'd be more likely to vote Conservative with a different candidate.
Again it is the basic question, "Why would haulage firms that know their lorries can not drive on mainland EU send their lorries to the the Chunnel and the ferry ports? They are not stupid. As the tweet in the middle says the haulage firms need to find a different method. It will be containers, into container ports. There will be no queues on the M20 into Dover because in the case of no deal, Dover will be a ghost town.
Or, to put it another way - if you think Corbynism is an abomination that has enabled racism, you have to defeat it and marginalise it somehow on the left. The only thing worse than the current situation is taking up arms when you're going to lose and leave the battlefield entirely to the awful individuals currently in the ascendancy. You may know you need to break out of the salient - but it's a question of how and when to do so - and when you absolutely have to.
I like your “politics is the art of the possible” post, ending in “there comes a time to plant our flag here and die beneath it.”
What exactly is that flag? And where exactly will it be planted?
I can answer those questions. The answer is the same as the ideological difference between Blairites and Brownites, the ideological differences between Trotsky and Stalin, the Eastern Church and The ravers from North Africa. Etc etc
So the EU want economic Armageddon for Europe. And some people think we should stay in their club?
I don't recall these transport problems prior to joining the EEC in January 1973.
Indeed. In the seventies the vehicles were stopped on the motorway because they were made in British Leyland by Red Robbo or whatever his name was. They never actually got to Calais.
Only compulsory reselection would be a catalyst for major defections IMO.
Can see a Tory split coming post No Deal or BINO though
Interesting view BJO. Do you think compulsory reselection is a possibility?
I posted last week that I got polled by the Conservative party (for the first time ever) about my local MP and was asked if I'd be more likely to vote Conservative with a different candidate.
LEAVING under the fear, till nothing else REMAINS All the children say We don't need another Euro We don't need to know the way home All we want is life beyond the Eurozone
Only compulsory reselection would be a catalyst for major defections IMO.
Can see a Tory split coming post No Deal or BINO though
Interesting view BJO. Do you think compulsory reselection is a possibility?
I posted last week that I got polled by the Conservative party (for the first time ever) about my local MP and was asked if I'd be more likely to vote Conservative with a different candidate.
Who was the pollster?
It wasn't a name I recognised and I wasn't fully paying attention at that stage so I don't remember. They only told me at the end who it was on behalf of.
Only compulsory reselection would be a catalyst for major defections IMO.
Can see a Tory split coming post No Deal or BINO though
Interesting view BJO. Do you think compulsory reselection is a possibility?
I posted last week that I got polled by the Conservative party (for the first time ever) about my local MP and was asked if I'd be more likely to vote Conservative with a different candidate.
Who was the pollster?
It wasn't a name I recognised and I wasn't fully paying attention at that stage so I don't remember. They only told me at the end who it was on behalf of.
Only compulsory reselection would be a catalyst for major defections IMO.
Can see a Tory split coming post No Deal or BINO though
Interesting view BJO. Do you think compulsory reselection is a possibility?
I posted last week that I got polled by the Conservative party (for the first time ever) about my local MP and was asked if I'd be more likely to vote Conservative with a different candidate.
Who was the pollster?
It wasn't a name I recognised and I wasn't fully paying attention at that stage so I don't remember. They only told me at the end who it was on behalf of.
Again it is the basic question, "Why would haulage firms that know their lorries can not drive on mainland EU send their lorries to the the Chunnel and the ferry ports? They are not stupid. As the tweet in the middle says the haulage firms need to find a different method. It will be containers, into container ports. There will be no queues on the M20 into Dover because in the case of no deal, Dover will be a ghost town.
Interesting thing will be foreign haulage firms. Having a quick look at the stats as long as I haven't bollockesed up what I am looking at in 1983 there were 186,000 UK registered lorries that headed into Europe and conincidentally 186,000 Foreign registered lorries that made the UK to Europe trip as well.
In 2017 it was 345,000 UK vehicles and 2 million European registered goods vehicles.
The University which proudly displays Salmond's preposterous assertion carved onto rock has this on its website: Due to Scottish Government limits on the number of places available, we are only able to offer vacancies to students who can be considered for a Widening Access place. We have no vacancies for EU applicants (outside the UK) or Scottish applications outside of SIMD20 areas.
It's an entirely different situation though. Rightly or wrongly non-Corbynite, Labour MPs feel they have a duty to stay and fight because they have colleagues and members who they have to fight for -appalled as they are. They won't jump until they really do feel the party has truly reached the point of no return - and those who stand with them feel the same. You still have a Jewish Labour Movement who are vocal in how appalled they are but want people on the left to stay or join in solidarity rather than sod off and leave Labour entirely to the lunatic cranks.
Now, some MPs almost certainly are close to breaking point - but unlike the UKIP Tories, whose aim was basically to scare Cameron into doing exactly what he ended up doing - Labour MPs have to consider whether quitting is abandoning their post in the fight or a true call to arms. Doing say, a Tristam Hunt is as utterly ineffectual, if not more so as getting angry within Labour and continuing to call Corbyn out. At least for the moment.
Many years ago Labour used to be the party of the working man, now it is the party of ponces.
I assume the final straw was when we lost people like working class champion and the opposite of poncey Tristram Hunt, real rough working class heroes like Tristram have been cast aside whilst poncey rich types who think of the working classes as peasants like Dennis Skinner have had their ideas come to the fore...
Labour should be the party of Tristram's or what is it for?
The reason there is so much anger at Labour is because they don't represent certain sections of wealthy middle classes that they used too, represented by people like Tristram and ex Labour voters on here. You can't exactly complain that Labour don't represent wealthy people anymore so they claim their annoyance is based on working class voters. Labour had been losing plenty of working class support previously and nobody cared outside of the ability to win seats. You'll forgive me for thinking it is another excuse for those who have no real interest in the working classes to have a go at Corbyn.
Labour actually attracted more working class support under Corbyn, that isn't the point, these wealthy people don't want Labour looking after the working classes, they want Tristram looked after and they will keep writing angry tweets and columns until they get it.
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
"A centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit"
What is your logic for that statement?
Oops. I meant "strongly pro-Remain on Brexit".
I really do not believe that Brexit is a sufficiently salient issue on which to build significant support for any new party.
That's not the point. The point is that if an SDP2 is created, it will inevitably be strongly pro-Remain (or Rejoin) simply by the nature of the MPs and peers who would join and lead it. And in turn, that would limit its appeal to Leave voters.
Telegraph leader going for Corbyn with a hard hitting article by a Munich survivor
Yawn.
Is that how you react to someone who survived an atrocity.
It’s how I’m reacting to you.
Not sure what Big G said to warrant that....
Apparently the telegraph article not only features an attack on Corbyn by Prof Shaul Ladany, who competed for Israel as a race walker at the 1972 Olympic Games, but also six members of the 1972 UK Olympic team
But Corbynista prefer to attack the messenger rather than the issues. The Sky paper review had a Corbynista blaming the media and everyone but the beloved JC for the anti semetic stories
It's an entirely different situation though. Rightly or wrongly non-Corbynite, Labour MPs feel they have a duty to stay and fight because they have colleagues and members who they have to fight for -appalled as they are. They won't jump until they really do feel the party has truly reached the point of no return - and those who stand with them feel the same. You still have a Jewish Labour Movement who are vocal in how appalled they are but want people on the left to stay or join in solidarity rather than sod off and leave Labour entirely to the lunatic cranks.
Now, some MPs almost certainly are close to breaking point - but unlike the UKIP Tories, whose aim was basically to scare Cameron into doing exactly what he ended up doing - Labour MPs have to consider whether quitting is abandoning their post in the fight or a true call to arms. Doing say, a Tristam Hunt is as utterly ineffectual, if not more so as getting angry within Labour and continuing to call Corbyn out. At least for the moment.
Many years ago Labour used to be the party of the working man, now it is the party of ponces.
I assume the final straw was when we lost people like working class champion and the opposite of poncey Tristram Hunt, real rough working class heroes like Tristram have been cast aside whilst poncey rich types who think of the working classes as peasants like Dennis Skinner have had their ideas come to the fore...
Labour should be the party of Tristram's or what is it for?
The reason there is so much anger at Labour is because they don't represent certain sections of wealthy middle classes that they used too, represented by people like Tristram and ex Labour voters on here. You can't exactly complain that Labour don't represent wealthy people anymore so they claim their annoyance is based on working class voters. Labour had been losing plenty of working class support previously and nobody cared outside of the ability to win seats. You'll forgive me for thinking it is another excuse for those who have no real interest in the working classes to have a go at Corbyn.
Labour actually attracted more working class support under Corbyn, that isn't the point, these wealthy people don't want Labour looking after the working classes, they want Tristram looked after and they will keep writing angry tweets and columns until they get it.
Labour actually attracted more working class support under Corbyn, that isn't the point, these wealthy people don't want Labour looking after the working classes, they want Tristram looked after and they will keep writing angry tweets and columns until they get it.
The thing that seems to unite populists on the left and the right is the belief that they represent the interests of the common man more than the 'professional' politicians they've usurped. Do they really care whether it's true, or are they more interested in getting one over on Tristram?
I asume the same would happen in French, Irish, Dutch and other EU ports. The voters across Europe would be furious with the political classes, not just in the UK
I'm sorry gentlemen but this exchange makes me sad. It encapsulates two consistent misconceptions that the Conservatives have had since day one, and it's depressing how difficult they are to shift. They are:
1) If anything bad happens, it's the EU's fault. 2) Everything bad that happens in the UK will be reflected by something equally bad in the EU.
Nobody here is capable of understanding two basic things, namely:
a) Brexit, even in an optimistic scenario, involves some economic pain. If we are lucky it'll be invisible: lower growth but still growing, minor inconveniences, etc. If we are unlucky it'll be the death of British industries, and Big G's children will have to become taxi drivers. b) The population differences between the UK and the EU-27 (65million vs ~480million) means that the pain will not be evenly spread: we will suffer more than them. We are severing 27 connections, they are severing one each.
Comments
https://twitter.com/salim4li/status/1030514877855612928
These people are a threat to our democracy.
FFS, leave. Break away. Do it. Stop talking about how bad it is. Act.
It is now Blair=Iraq War= Basically a Tory = Jew=Banker=Elite=Block to Jezza = Shoah wasn't too bad folks.
Curran's time will come though. I'm guessing the theory is that the management know he's got time on his side and if they have the options, at 20, there's no need to play him constantly until he has the inevitable bad game and loses confidence. Leave him in an around the team and let him learn - he's well ahead of schedule and will get plenty of opportunities either on tour or when there's an injury or loss of form. He'll only be about 22-23 when Jimmy calls it a day!
https://twitter.com/DerbyChrisW/status/1030520299324928002
Interesting to hear on here the other day that apparently Williamson used to seem pretty unremarkable pre2015. Losing his seat seems to really have shaken him up, or maybe he is just that committed to the person who helped him regain it.
Now, some MPs almost certainly are close to breaking point - but unlike the UKIP Tories, whose aim was basically to scare Cameron into doing exactly what he ended up doing - Labour MPs have to consider whether quitting is abandoning their post in the fight or a true call to arms. Doing say, a Tristam Hunt is as utterly ineffectual, if not more so as getting angry within Labour and continuing to call Corbyn out. At least for the moment.
I do find it surprising though that not a single Labour MP has been shamed into leaving a party led by him.
A trickle might become a flood, but it would need a single drop to flow first...
I suppose they could be careful what they wish for and perhaps a number of their own MPs and activists and Councillors would join a new party.
Those contemplating the schism might be considering one other thing - Corbyn in power might be easier to manage as he will be dependent on the majority of the parliamentary party to get through legislation in a way the formulation of policy in opposition doesn't.
The other aspects are logistical and legal - would whole CLP branches defect or would it be parts of the membership? I remember reading that 2/3 of those who joined the SDP in the first month hadn't been in any political party. Could a new party find such a groundswell of "new" people to get it started? Inevitably there would be areas of strength and areas of weakness - here in Newham would all 60 Councillors stay in Labour or would a number defect and form an Opposition group (bit of a novelty here)? Could enough defect in one area to give the New Party a council or two to run?
Huge questions, no easy answers.
https://twitter.com/JamesERothwell/status/1030552951536926722
Here's the highlights
https://twitter.com/JamesERothwell/status/1030553074794938368
https://twitter.com/JamesERothwell/status/1030553285026045954
https://twitter.com/JamesERothwell/status/1030553828146532358
https://twitter.com/JamesERothwell/status/1030553976872357890
https://twitter.com/JamesERothwell/status/1030554963204866049
I don't think that such a realignment is replicable at the moment because of Brexit (a centrist alliance has to be strongly pro-Brexit, which will mean the Tories have a floor of probably around 35%), but even so, if a new centre-left party could become the clear largest party, there's no reason why, in alliance with the Lib Dems, it couldn't match or exceed that share.
What is your logic for that statement?
The voters across Europe would be furious with the political classes, not just in the UK
Now that's one thing I can't see being repeated.
Or as I said before the referendum
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/722391453599723520
We'll never know - some claim the Conservatives would have won in 1984 on the back of an improving economy - maybe but I can't see a 144-seat landslide. Had the majority been very small or non-existent, the radical policies of the second term would never have been enacted.
Too soon before a GE and any bandwagon surge of support for a new party risks running out of steam. Compare the timing and fate of the SDP with En Marche; 2 years ahead of a GE is perhaps too early - 1 year ahead seemed to work.
He forgot to note the follow-up to the return question, “never I hope you repugnant bigot”
Labour mps have a huge decision to take and it needs courage but they will end up in the abyss with Corbyn if they are not careful
Brexit means we’re a junkie going to rehab.
Can see a Tory split coming post No Deal or BINO though
Who one day got stuck in his garage
He campaigned so hard
But let down his guard
And lost to an electoral barrage
There will be no queues on the M20 into Dover because in the case of no deal, Dover will be a ghost town.
What exactly is that flag? And where exactly will it be planted?
I can answer those questions. The answer is the same as the ideological difference between Blairites and Brownites, the ideological differences between Trotsky and Stalin, the Eastern Church and The ravers from North Africa. Etc etc
A new vote will sort all this huge public misunderstanding out.
Toby Young needs to get his Labour membership and beat you over the head with it until you wake up.
All the children say
We don't need another Euro
We don't need to know the way home
All we want is life beyond the Eurozone
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1030563813689647104
YouRes?
Opulus?
Popinium?
IMG?
BCM?
In 2017 it was 345,000 UK vehicles and 2 million European registered goods vehicles.
Due to Scottish Government limits on the number of places available, we are only able to offer vacancies to students who can be considered for a Widening Access place. We have no vacancies for EU applicants (outside the UK) or Scottish applications outside of SIMD20 areas.
Note he has not rushed to get that independent investigation and managed to stay in the Labour party before that.
Not that anybody cares about his potential victim, I assume she should be ignored so the right wing press have more ammo against Corbyn.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_Swedish_general_election,_2014
With the 4 exit polls, the average SD rating was 9.85%. They got 12.9%.
People who bet on politics are making money off the failure of the poor to secure a living wage etc etc.
That's if the vermin win of course.
Labour should be the party of Tristram's or what is it for?
The reason there is so much anger at Labour is because they don't represent certain sections of wealthy middle classes that they used too, represented by people like Tristram and ex Labour voters on here. You can't exactly complain that Labour don't represent wealthy people anymore so they claim their annoyance is based on working class voters. Labour had been losing plenty of working class support previously and nobody cared outside of the ability to win seats. You'll forgive me for thinking it is another excuse for those who have no real interest in the working classes to have a go at Corbyn.
Labour actually attracted more working class support under Corbyn, that isn't the point, these wealthy people don't want Labour looking after the working classes, they want Tristram looked after and they will keep writing angry tweets and columns until they get it.
That AV?
But Corbynista prefer to attack the messenger rather than the issues. The Sky paper review had a Corbynista blaming the media and everyone but the beloved JC for the anti semetic stories
1) If anything bad happens, it's the EU's fault.
2) Everything bad that happens in the UK will be reflected by something equally bad in the EU.
Nobody here is capable of understanding two basic things, namely:
a) Brexit, even in an optimistic scenario, involves some economic pain. If we are lucky it'll be invisible: lower growth but still growing, minor inconveniences, etc. If we are unlucky it'll be the death of British industries, and Big G's children will have to become taxi drivers.
b) The population differences between the UK and the EU-27 (65million vs ~480million) means that the pain will not be evenly spread: we will suffer more than them. We are severing 27 connections, they are severing one each.