A new party or Independent Labour is the only real option - but you can't do that in a day, it has to be put in place. Some are agitating for this but again, It's not something you shout about in public until you're ready to pull the trigger. It would, in effect, mean burning down Labour to save it.
Particularly while the party is doing fine in the polls (ok, oppositions have been even further ahead, but it is clearly not awful) there does not seem to be any one or any group of people who have the strength and determination to take such a huge risk or the ability to see it through.
I wish people would stop leaking stories about a new party - lots of people in Westminster and political wonks online like the idea, but the obstacles to people trying it in any significant way are clearly insurmountable and it is just getting tedious. We are stuck with Labour and the Tories until such time as one or the other splits - Labour are not going to as they would have already if they were. The Tories possibly could over Brexit, but it doesn't seem the most likely outcome by any means, far from it despite the vitriol the sides spit at each other.
Hmmm...I disagree. There's certainly some movement on the Labour side. More out of despair than anything. For certain MPs the idea of making a go of something, anything, is getting more attractive than waiting for the whitewalkers to arrive. The key problem with a new party is that to be even half successful - e.g. form a reasonably sized parliamentary bloc that could hold the balance of power, it needs a movement. The most important development on that front is probably the People's Vote and Open Britain. They may be doomed in their immediate aims but that's an awful lot of contacts to draw upon for a movement that shares their politics. Not saying It's likely by any means - but more so certainly than a year ago. Especially as after Brexit one tie that binds the liberal left to Labour is gone. Especially if Corbyn is seen as complicit in a total mess.
I can see Corbyn switching to supporting a 'People's vote', it's not as though people will hold his previous opposition to it against him. But I just cannot see how those scenarios provoke more people to leave that have not already. The closer we get to a new election the less someone will want to risk it.
Also Corbyn is an absolute disaster for labour and the Country. Neil Kinnock ridding labour of militant tendency is one of those political moments etched into my memory. Where is today's Neil Kinnock
Did you ever vote for Kinnock?
No of course not but it was an epic moment
A classic exchange showing why taking even genuinely-meant advice (I know Big G doesn't do wind-ups) from another party is not always helpful. I think Ken Clarke would (still!) be a much better Tory leader, but I wouldn't actually, er, vote Tory if he were.
Nick - it was one of those moments that provided genuine relief that labour would not be taken over by militant and that led to the Blair years which apart from Iraq were in the main successful. Even I voted Blair twice
WHAAAAAAAT?
BIG G????
I hope that it demonstrates I do have an open mind on politics but not when it comes to Corbyn
You are a credit to whichever party you support, Big G.
Also Corbyn is an absolute disaster for labour and the Country. Neil Kinnock ridding labour of militant tendency is one of those political moments etched into my memory. Where is today's Neil Kinnock
Did you ever vote for Kinnock?
No of course not but it was an epic moment
A classic exchange showing why taking even genuinely-meant advice (I know Big G doesn't do wind-ups) from another party is not always helpful. I think Ken Clarke would (still!) be a much better Tory leader, but I wouldn't actually, er, vote Tory if he were.
Nick - it was one of those moments that provided genuine relief that labour would not be taken over by militant and that led to the Blair years which apart from Iraq were in the main successful. Even I voted Blair twice
WHAAAAAAAT?
BIG G????
I hope that it demonstrates I do have an open mind on politics but not when it comes to Corbyn
You are a credit to whichever party you support, Big G.
I voted for Maggie back in the day
Too much Macallan since then has evidently taken its toll.
Isn't there a inconsistency ? I thought she had already called him a "f**king anti-semite". So someone who already was an anti-semite is now becoming one ?
Len McCluskey is the last straw surely for any Labour MP with even a scintilla of decency?
"petulant trolling" - his words about Jewish complaints.
For the love of God, moderates need to resign the whip and stop a Labour government under these people.
I think you are right. People who feel strongly should resign and leave the party.
You Gov poll on Corbyn and the wreath controversy not good as his personal ratings fall
I see no way the UK would elect someone with these ratings to be PM
As you know, if you have followed my posts in the past, I had two opportunities to vote for Corbyn in the last 3 years and did not in either. In the first one, I voted for Cooper with #2 going to Burnham. In 2017, I did not vote at all because I could not vote for Owen Smith who I had not even heard about until he became a candidate.
After his 40% in 2017, Corbyn is untouchable to about 60% of the membership today. Unless an incredibly awful result happens like 2015, I cannot see him going.
I hope he will be replaced by Thornberry.
Meanwhile, I would prefer Mourinho to go, whatever the cost!
Well we absolutely agree on Mourinho. He is a lost cause.
Also Corbyn
Did you ever vote for Kinnock?
No of course not but it was an epic moment
2 time loser, windbag who thinks he is able to give advice on winning an election
You forgot to say he should join the tories !!!!!!
Your welcome. Can Stephen join too
How sad it is BJO that you spent your 10,000th post defending your party leader from charges of anti-Semitism.
Did I?
It should really have been EICIPM!!!
Ed - the best PM we never had. Still time for him.
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
Also Corbyn is an absolute disaster for labour and the Country. Neil Kinnock ridding labour of militant tendency is one of those political moments etched into my memory. Where is today's Neil Kinnock
Did you ever vote for Kinnock?
No of course not but it was an epic moment
A classic exchange showing why taking even genuinely-meant advice (I know Big G doesn't do wind-ups) from another party is not always helpful. I think Ken Clarke would (still!) be a much better Tory leader, but I wouldn't actually, er, vote Tory if he were.
Nick - it was one of those moments that provided genuine relief that labour would not be taken over by militant and that led to the Blair years which apart from Iraq were in the main successful. Even I voted Blair twice
WHAAAAAAAT?
BIG G????
I hope that it demonstrates I do have an open mind on politics but not when it comes to Corbyn
You are a credit to whichever party you support, Big G.
I voted for Maggie back in the day
Too much Macallan since then has evidently taken its toll.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Isn't there a inconsistency ? I thought she had already called him a "f**king anti-semite". So someone who already was an anti-semite is now becoming one ?
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Also Corbyn is an absolute disaster for labour and the Country. Neil Kinnock ridding labour of militant tendency is one of those political moments etched into my memory. Where is today's Neil Kinnock
Did you ever vote for Kinnock?
No of course not but it was an epic moment
A classic exchange showing why taking even genuinely-meant advice (I know Big G doesn't do wind-ups) from another party is not always helpful. I think Ken Clarke would (still!) be a much better Tory leader, but I wouldn't actually, er, vote Tory if he were.
Nick - it was one of those moments that provided genuine relief that labour would not be taken over by militant and that led to the Blair years which apart from Iraq were in the main successful. Even I voted Blair twice
WHAAAAAAAT?
BIG G????
I hope that it demonstrates I do have an open mind on politics but not when it comes to Corbyn
You are a credit to whichever party you support, Big G.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Who do Metropolitan liberal Euroscpetics vote for?
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Isn't there a inconsistency ? I thought she had already called him a "f**king anti-semite". So someone who already was an anti-semite is now becoming one ?
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Experts call for national debate about 'culture and ambition in white working class families' after figures show rise in university admissions for all ethnic groups except white people
New figures published by the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) show the number of white students has fallen by more than 34,000 since 2013/14 – a decrease of 2 per cent – while in total enrolments rose by 1 per cent in the same period.
I do wonder to what extent some people are starting to work out that university really isn't worth it for them.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
That was basically what we had for 20 years leading up to Brexit. All right, your 'Metropolitan Liberal Party' was three parties rather than one, but it was in their hands that power lay and the voices of the other two blocs were marginalised. And look what happened then.
You can't simply marginalise the views you don't like. It doesn't work. That was what Labour tried to do with the SNP in 1997, and look how that turned out.
Isn't there a inconsistency ? I thought she had already called him a "f**king anti-semite". So someone who already was an anti-semite is now becoming one ?
She seems to be expanding her attack lines this evening on Sky
I think you could be right. This could be the artillery barrage before the infantry moves (out).
I will be glad when they are gone.
Purity matters. There is only one truth, and that is the truth that comes out from Corbyn's mouth. Anything else: tapes, photos, videos - even things he has said in the past - is untruth. Only the pure can be true believers, and only true believers can be true followers.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Right now, Labour will be the largest party.
I reckon the true tories would pull ahead, because there would be major defections from Corbyn to the Metropolitan liberals.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
I'm looking forward to the images of Corbyn laying a wreath at an IDF memorial in the interests of 'promoting peace' in order to shut this whole thing down.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Who do Metropolitan liberal Euroscpetics vote for?
A new party or Independent Labour is the only real option - but you can't do that in a day, it has to be ething you shout about in public until you're ready to pull the trigger. It would, in effect, mean burning down Labour to save it.
Particularly while the party is doing fine in the polls (ok, oppositions have been even further ahead, but it is clearly not awful) there does not seem to be any one or any group of people who have ple trying it in any significant way are clearly insurmountable and it is just getting tediousr splits - Labour are not going to as they would have already if they were. The Tories possibly could over Brexit, but it doesn't seem the most likely outcome by any means, far from it despite the vitriol the sides spit at each other.
Hmmm...ront is probably the People's Vote and Open Britain. They may be doomed in their immediate aims but that's an awful lot of contacts to draw upon for a movement that shares their politics. Not saying It's likel a year ago. Especially as after Brexit one tie that binds the liberal left to Labour is gone. Especially if Corbyn is seen as complicit in a total mess.
I can see Corbyn switching to supporting a 'People's vote', it's not as though people will hold his previous opposition to it against him. But I just cannot see how those scenarios provoke more people to leave that have not already. The closer we get to a new election the less someone will want to risk it.
I meant less the politics of it. Which are almost impossible to predict - although I can't see Corbyn going for a PV as it would be an admission he's wrong, pretty irrelevant, and would potentially endanger him by offering non-Corbynites a platform to build a following. The last thing he wants is someone like Chuka emerging as the remain golden boy, or him being blamed for another defeat. There probably isn't time anyway.
I more meant that any new party could have access to hundreds of thousands of potential activists' contact details and data. The underrated story of the Labour 2016 election was data. Smith did little wrong in one sense - but had been eviscerated before he'd even got out of the starting blocks. They'd sent emails accusing him of being Big Pharma to half the party before he's given a proper speech. It's a huge stumbling block to a new party that they wouldn't be able to compete with the Labour/Momentum machine. Those broader campaigns could at least incubate one that could be competitive.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Hope Not Hate are Metropolitan Liberals?
Prominent supporters of Hope not Hate include businessman Lord Sugar, boxer Amir Khan, singer Beverly Knight, actress and screenwriter Meera Syal, TV presenter Fiona Phillips, chef Simon Rimmer, songwriter Billy Bragg, entrepreneur Levi Roots, singer Speech Debelle, actress and singer Paloma Faith, presenter Dermot O'Leary, Baroness Glenys Kinnock, comedian Eddie Izzard and murdered MP Jo Cox.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Hope Not Hate are Metropolitan Liberals?
Prominent supporters of Hope not Hate include businessman Lord Sugar, boxer Amir Khan, singer Beverly Knight, actress and screenwriter Meera Syal, TV presenter Fiona Phillips, chef Simon Rimmer, songwriter Billy Bragg, entrepreneur Levi Roots, singer Speech Debelle, actress and singer Paloma Faith, presenter Dermot O'Leary, Baroness Glenys Kinnock, comedian Eddie Izzard and murdered MP Jo Cox.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Who do Metropolitan liberal Euroscpetics vote for?
This group is not a significant electoral force.
Disagreed!
It is a proportion of the Tory party and features within its electoral force arguably both Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. While the Faragists always backed Brexit arguably it was Gove et al winning over liberal sceptics like myself that tipped Brexit over the line.
I see that @NickPalmer has introduced a new form of morality. According to him, Corbyn has not been attacked for what he has said and done (not true, btw but never mind) but for being present at places or with people and not saying anything and that this is unfair. A novel idea this: that not doing something should somehow absolve you from blame or criticism. One would like to think that he doesn’t really mean this because the implications of this are really quite terrifying but it is a sign of the way supporters of Corbyn are allowing their sense of basic morality to be degraded.
A very good account of how in a democracy apparently normal good people who are not themselves extreme can find themselves slowly and with little accommodations here and there, self-justifying explanations, self-delusions, and all the rest of it, end up facilitating and supporting, passively or actively, revolting extremists can be found in Sebastain Haffner’s Defying Hitler. A very good book and well worth reading for an account written at the time of how many young Germans fell under the spell of a bad man.
I do not say that Corbyn is like a Hitler, let me be clear, though some of his friends and associates on the Palestinian side are much more admiring of the man and his methods. But the book describes very well the process by which good men end up doing bad things and/pr supporting bad men, almost without realising the way they are slipping away from real decency. We have seen something like this on this forum with some of our posters sadly.
Perhaps I am being too cynical but I think Labour’s complaint to Ipsos is not about getting a ruling but about being able to show that Ipsos does not work thus justifying much harsher laws restricting the press should Labour get into power.
If Labour were really concerned, they would have sued for libel. After all, what could be more libellous than suggesting that the leader of a political party honours terrorists? But doing so brings a wealth of danger so they have tried to avoid that.
I see that @NickPalmer has introduced a new form of morality. According to him, Corbyn has not been attacked for what he has said and done (not true, btw but never mind) but for being present at places or with people and not saying anything and that this is unfair. A novel idea this: that not doing something should somehow absolve you from blame or criticism. One would like to think that he doesn’t really mean this because the implications of this are really quite terrifying but it is a sign of the way supporters of Corbyn are allowing their sense of basic morality to be degraded.
Additionally, if that is what was suggested, I would suggest that it does not pass the 'Would party x accept their opponents doing the same?' test.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Who do Metropolitan liberal Euroscpetics vote for?
This group is not a significant electoral force.
Disagreed!
It is a proportion of the Tory party and features within its electoral force arguably both Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. While the Faragists always backed Brexit arguably it was Gove et al winning over liberal sceptics like myself that tipped Brexit over the line.
Yeah, but statistically I think it is still only a few percent of people in the country, because metropolitan liberals overwhelmingly voted remain. The significance in the referendum would not transfer to FPTP.
Re Mrs Hodge: there is a history between her and Corbyn. If you listen to Peter Hennessey’s interview of her a couple of years back, she cut her teeth in the 1980’s fighting what she contemptuously describes in that programme as “Trots” like Corbyn, Livingstone and McDonnell who she says do not have the Labour party’s interests at heart.
Also, her parents fled Germany and Austria in the 1930’s but they went to Egypt where she was born. As a result of anti-semitism there they then came to England. So she has experience of not just European but also Arab anti-semitism. No wonder she despises someone like Corbyn.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Who do Metropolitan liberal Euroscpetics vote for?
This group is not a significant electoral force.
Disagreed!
It is a proportion of the Tory party and features within its electoral force arguably both Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. While the Faragists always backed Brexit arguably it was Gove et al winning over liberal sceptics like myself that tipped Brexit over the line.
Yeah, but statistically I think it is still only a few percent of people in the country, because metropolitan liberals overwhelmingly voted remain. The significance in the referendum would not transfer to FPTP.
Yes it would. In fact it matters more in FPTP than under PR.
Not as an independent party but as a constituent of a party then they can again tip that party over the line. Even a 1% swing from Tory to Labour at the last election could have seen Corbyn becoming PM. So even if the proportion of the electorate who are metropolitan liberal eurosceptics is just 3% then under FPTP who that 3% vote for could make all the difference. That is why the two main parties are a coalition of interests and not homogenous.
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
The report about the Manchester mosque which the Manchester bomber attended is quite chilling, for a number of reasons, particularly the extent to which the sermons of the imam in question were little more than political rants.
Will the MCB, so quick to want Boris punished because, they said, words have “consequences”, be similarly quick to want effective action taken against this imam whose words did have some pretty fatal consequences?
I see that @NickPalmer has introduced a new form of morality. According to him, Corbyn has not been attacked for what he has said and done (not true, btw but never mind) but for being present at places or with people and not saying anything and that this is unfair. A novel idea this: that not doing something should somehow absolve you from blame or criticism. One would like to think that he doesn’t really mean this because the implications of this are really quite terrifying but it is a sign of the way supporters of Corbyn are allowing their sense of basic morality to be degraded.
A very good account of how in a democracy apparently normal good people who are not themselves extreme can find themselves slowly and with little accommodations here and there, self-justifying explanations, self-delusions, and all the rest of it, end up facilitating and supporting, passively or actively, revolting extremists can be found in Sebastain Haffner’s Defying Hitler. A very good book and well worth reading for an account written at the time of how many young Germans fell under the spell of a bad man.
I do not say that Corbyn is like a Hitler, let me be clear, though some of his friends and associates on the Palestinian side are much more admiring of the man and his methods. But the book describes very well the process by which good men end up doing bad things and/pr supporting bad men, almost without realising the way they are slipping away from real decency. We have seen something like this on this forum with some of our posters sadly.
Well worth reading the book, if you haven’t.
I have posted many times on here that the geniality and politeness of Nick Palmer on here should not delude anyone into thinking his views are anything other than very hard left along with Corbyn and his ilk. It is quite irrational to interpret Corbyn's actions for the last 30+ years as anything other than anti-British/American and Western on every opportunity that has presented itself. It does not help that he is pretty stupid at the same time. I'm afraid that for Nick Palmer to actively support such a person as a potential PM is more than sufficient for me to condemn him.
The report about the Manchester mosque which the Manchester bomber attended is quite chilling, for a number of reasons, particularly the extent to which the sermons of the imam in question were little more than political rants.
Will the MCB, so quick to want Boris punished because, they said, words have “consequences”, be similarly quick to want effective action taken against this imam whose words did have some pretty fatal consequences?
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Who do Metropolitan liberal Euroscpetics vote for?
This group is not a significant electoral force.
Disagreed!
It is a proportion of the Tory party and features within its electoral force arguably both Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. While the Faragists always backed Brexit arguably it was Gove et al winning over liberal sceptics like myself that tipped Brexit over the line.
Yeah, but statistically I think it is still only a few percent of people in the country, because metropolitan liberals overwhelmingly voted remain. The significance in the referendum would not transfer to FPTP.
Yes it would. In fact it matters more in FPTP than under PR.
Not as an independent party but as a constituent of a party then they can again tip that party over the line. Even a 1% swing from Tory to Labour at the last election could have seen Corbyn becoming PM. So even if the proportion of the electorate who are metropolitan liberal eurosceptics is just 3% then under FPTP who that 3% vote for could make all the difference. That is why the two main parties are a coalition of interests and not homogenous.
Not sure I follow. Surely lots of niche groups have a few percent?
The metropolitan liberals eurosceptics are likely to live in the same constituencies as the metropolitan liberal pro EU voters, who would outnumber them anyway, so what leverage are they going to have?
The other thing is that if we leave with an EEA type deal, many eurosceptic liberals will probably be happy anyway.
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
Hi all. I propose a 3 party system divided along the following lines.
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
Who do Metropolitan liberal Euroscpetics vote for?
This group is not a significant electoral force.
Disagreed!
It is a proportion of the Tory party and features within its electoral force arguably both Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. While the Faragists always backed Brexit arguably it was Gove et al winning over liberal sceptics like myself that tipped Brexit over the line.
Yeah, but statistically I think it is still only a few percent of people in the country, because metropolitan liberals overwhelmingly voted remain. The significance in the referendum would not transfer to FPTP.
Yes it would. In fact it matters more in FPTP than under PR.
Not as an independent party but as a constituent of a party then they can again tip that party over the line. Even a 1% swing from Tory to Labour at the last election could have seen Corbyn becoming PM. So even if the proportion of the electorate who are metropolitan liberal eurosceptics is just 3% then under FPTP who that 3% vote for could make all the difference. That is why the two main parties are a coalition of interests and not homogenous.
Not sure I follow. Surely lots of niche groups have a few percent?
The metropolitan liberals eurosceptics are likely to live in the same constituencies as the metropolitan liberal pro EU voters, who would outnumber them anyway, so what leverage are they going to have?
The other thing is that if we leave with an EEA type deal, many eurosceptic liberals will probably be happy anyway.
Yes and under FPTP all of those few percents add up. Whichever party can get the most of those few percents corralled together to vote for them wins.
This is where people fall down looking for purity of thought. Pure believers don't win FPTP, getting the most votes does and that means appealing to multiple niches not one.
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
Isn't that because no other party leader has had to deal with so much of it? It seems a poor line to defend him with to me, like saying a golfer has done more to combat driving into the rough than any other, to me that would suggest he goes into the rough too often
I see that @NickPalmer has introduced a new form of morality. According to him, Corbyn has not been attacked for what he has said and done (not true, btw but never mind) but for being present at places or with people and not saying anything and that this is unfair. A novel idea this: that not doing something should somehow absolve you from blame or criticism. One would like to think that he doesn’t really mean this because the implications of this are really quite terrifying but it is a sign of the way supporters of Corbyn are allowing their sense of basic morality to be degraded.
Additionally, if that is what was suggested, I would suggest that it does not pass the 'Would party x accept their opponents doing the same?' test.
Agreed. The other point is this. Corbyn could have quite easily defused the whole problem three years ago by apologising and explaining. He could have said, yes as an ardent supporter of the pro-Palestinian cause I mixed with some people I shouldn't have and for that I am sorry - but here's what I actually believe and It's fairly even handed and and threatening. I will no longer tolerate this behaviour, as I should not have done in the past. Would it have satisfied everyone? No. Stephen Pollard wouldn't have rushed out and bought a book of Poems for Corbyn - but lots of us in Labour, including myself, and probably the Jewish community too, would've been fairly accepting- perhaps with the odd grumble, but not fearful and furious at the man. He didn't. He obfuscated, lied, ignored, attacked those who raised the issue (see Jonathan Freedland). He made a relatively arcane problem about his objectively bad associations with cranks an urgent and sickening one. That is why, even if you take a fairly generous view of his initial actions, he is unfit to lead Labour.
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
I see that @NickPalmer has introduced a new form of morality. According to him, Corbyn has not been attacked for what he has said and done (not true, btw but never mind) but for being present at places or with people and not saying anything and that this is unfair. A novel idea this: that not doing something should somehow absolve you from blame or criticism. One would like to think that he doesn’t really mean this because the implications of this are really quite terrifying but it is a sign of the way supporters of Corbyn are allowing their sense of basic morality to be degraded.
Additionally, if that is what was suggested, I would suggest that it does not pass the 'Would party x accept their opponents doing the same?' test.
Agreed. The other point is this. Corbyn could have quite easily defused the whole problem three years ago by apologising and explaining. He could have said, yes as an ardent supporter of the pro-Palestinian cause I mixed with some people I shouldn't have and for that I am sorry - but here's what I actually believe and It's fairly even handed and and threatening. I will no longer tolerate this behaviour, as I should not have done in the past. Would it have satisfied everyone? No. Stephen Pollard wouldn't have rushed out and bought a book of Poems for Corbyn - but lots of us in Labour, including myself, and probably the Jewish community too, would've been fairly accepting- perhaps with the odd grumble, but not fearful and furious at the man. He didn't. He obfuscated, lied, ignored, attacked those who raised the issue (see Jonathan Freedland). He made a relatively arcane problem about his objectively bad associations with cranks an urgent and sickening one. That is why, even if you take a fairly generous view of his initial actions, he is unfit to lead Labour.
The problem is that the bad associations weren't an accident they go to the very root of who he is and what he believes in. He could renounce his lifelong euroscepticism to pretend to back Remain in the referendum as he didn't care that much about Europe.
He cares passionately and deeply on this. He hates Israel. He can't be balanced or fair.
There are some pretty extreme political groups in Israel who have racist views about Arabs generally and Palestinians in particular. Some want all Arabs expelled from Israel, not just Israel as it currently exists, but a greater Israel encompassing all the Occupied Territories. The way Palestinians in those territories are treated is horrible and demeaning. Land is seized with little or no compensation; farmers can no longer farm; soldiers treat civilians at checkpoints in dismissive and dehumanising ways. The current Israeli PM is corrupt, arrogant and shows no wish to seek peace. The new nationality law is a disgrace and demeans all non-Jewish citizens in Israel: Arabs, Druze, Christians. Israel has carried out a policy of targeted assassinations of its enemies. And so on.
Even those who wish Israel well need to recognise and criticise its awful behaviour and that amongst its political class there are groups and people who are, on any reading, pretty repellent.
Corbyn has always justified his meetings with Palestinians with pretty repellent views on the basis that it is important to have dialogue and a debate because this is the only way to get peace and that this is what he has been doing all his life and that it has been his life’s work.
Pretty strong words. So let’s take him at his word and assume he is sincere.
If what he says is the case, 2 questions for his supporters on here:-
1. Why over the last 40 years has he never once had a debate or dialogue with anyone on the Israeli side, including any of the ghastly people listed above, in order to advance peace?
2. Why not, now that he’s Opposition Leader and a possible PM, now seek to meet some of those on the Israeli side - from moderates to extremists to everyone in between - in order to have dialogue and debate and advance the cause of peace? What possible objection could he have to doing this?
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Sky reporting that Dame Margaret Hodge has said the cult of Corbynism has allowed anti semetic views to emerge and felt the same kind of fear her Father would have had when fleeing the Nazi's when labour opened their disciplinary investigation into her
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
She's spot on with that too. It's one of the most worrying aspects of Corbyn's leadership is that It's spread anti-Semitism as anti-Semitic conspiracy theories have mutated with pro-Corbyn ones. A basic timeline of the issue is this.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction. 2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation 3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy 4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum. 5. So Jews complain again, louder this time. 6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews) 7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks 8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum 9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
And why this crush on Victoria Derbyshire all of a sudden?
Great Surname
Oh, indeed. I prefer Sarah Kinder-Scout though, or Chi Dale.
The new Mayor of San Francisco is called London Breed.
My dad had a business associate called 'Hans Christian Anderson". He got stopped by the police once, and you can imagine what they replied when they asked him his name...
Dame Margaret Hodge was genuinely moving and many will support her after hearing such a heartfelt interview. I would urge everyone to listen to Sky's ten o clock news - it is very moving
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
I see three scenarios - One, the 'moderates' truly cannot take anymore, even with their tribal loyalty to Labour, and finally take the leap. Two, they are just expressing frustrations, and will continue to cause trouble when Corbyn has negative stories, but that's it, it is how they justify staying in place despite despairing of him. Three, Corbyn gets sick of his baggage causing difficulties, and anoints a successor who can carry the project forward.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
Dan Hodges' speculative timeframe on this suggests few are expecting many to actually leave any time soon, but just talk about it...
The spectacle of senior Corbynites spending the next few months running around screaming at Moderates to f**k off and stay in the Labour party is going to be a joy to behold...
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
I see three scenarios - One, the 'moderates' truly cannot take anymore, even with their tribal loyalty to Labour, and finally take the leap. Two, they are just expressing frustrations, and will continue to cause trouble when Corbyn has negative stories, but that's it, it is how they justify staying in place despite despairing of him. Three, Corbyn gets sick of his baggage causing difficulties, and anoints a successor who can carry the project forward.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
Corbyn is 69 years old and there is no general election due for another four years. (Trump is 72 btw.) I doubt he'd have aimed to be running the party then anyway, even without this.
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
I see three scenarios - One, the 'moderates' truly cannot take anymore, even with their tribal loyalty to Labour, and finally take the leap. Two, they are just expressing frustrations, and will continue to cause trouble when Corbyn has negative stories, but that's it, it is how they justify staying in place despite despairing of him. Three, Corbyn gets sick of his baggage causing difficulties, and anoints a successor who can carry the project forward.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
Corbyn is 69 years old and there is no general election due for another four years. (Trump is 72 btw.) I doubt he'd have aimed to be running the party then anyway, even without this.
I think there is merit to the idea he might leave after March 2019. I think he won't go voluntarily before Brexit has moved to the next phase or before May goes. He might not go even then, but certainly not before then.
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
So, if the Jezzuits are so worried that a split will destroy their dreams, why don't they occasionally trim and compromise? Or even treat moderate MPs with a modicum of decency, rather than 'fuck off and joining the tories'?
Answer: because the Left can't. They exist in a world of total endless war and betrayal.
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
I see three scenarios - One, the 'moderates' truly cannot take anymore, even with their tribal loyalty to Labour, and finally take the leap. Two, they are just expressing frustrations, and will continue to cause trouble when Corbyn has negative stories, but that's it, it is how they justify staying in place despite despairing of him. Three, Corbyn gets sick of his baggage causing difficulties, and anoints a successor who can carry the project forward.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
The problem with the Sky interview for Corbyn is that they will just continue playing it time after time provoking more and more negative responses for Corbyn and his cult to deal with.
The BBC are now reporting Corbyn claiming he didn't know the man he was standing next to at the wreath laying ceremony was a senior member of the militant Palestinian group, Maher Taher of the popular front for the liberation of Palestine.
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
So, if the Jezzuits are so worried that a split will destroy their dreams, why don't they occasionally trim and compromise?
Hasn't it been widely trailed that the party will now adopt the full IHRA definition? That'd be the compromise that will be the pretext to dial back the attacks on Corbyn.
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
I see three scenarios - One, the 'moderates' truly cannot take anymore, even with their tribal loyalty to Labour, and finally take the leap. Two, they are just expressing frustrations, and will continue to cause trouble when Corbyn has negative stories, but that's it, it is how they justify staying in place despite despairing of him. Three, Corbyn gets sick of his baggage causing difficulties, and anoints a successor who can carry the project forward.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
I am afraid I am in the 2nd option camp, as far as predictions go. I just don't believe they have the guts for it and feel too much tribal loyalty (and I understand how hard this must be).
So far only Woodcock has truly looked in the mirror.
Kinnock is a factor here. He took on (a much softer) version of the hard left and won in the end.
This isn't Kinnock's time again. It is way more serious.
Dame Margaret Hodge was genuinely moving and many will support her after hearing such a heartfelt interview. I would urge everyone to listen to Sky's ten o clock news - it is very moving
Ironically, Hodge compares Labour's complaint against her to Nazi Germany. That's the trouble with the IHRA's prohibition of Nazi comparisons: for the past decades since the war, in this country they have been standard fare.
I see that @NickPalmer has introduced a new form of morality. According to him, Corbyn has not been attacked for what he has said and done (not true, btw but never mind) but for being present at places or with people and not saying anything and that this is unfair. A novel idea this: that not doing something should somehow absolve you from blame or criticism. One would like to think that he doesn’t really mean this because the implications of this are really quite terrifying but it is a sign of the way supporters of Corbyn are allowing their sense of basic morality to be degraded.
Additionally, if that is what was suggested, I would suggest that it does not pass the 'Would party x accept their opponents doing the same?' test.
Agreed. The other point is this. Corbyn could have quite easily defused the whole problem three years ago by apologising and explaining. He could have said, yes as an ardent supporter of the pro-Palestinian cause I mixed with some people I shouldn't have and for that I am sorry - but here's what I actually believe and It's fairly even handed and and threatening. I will no longer tolerate this behaviour, as I should not have done in the past. Would it have satisfied everyone? No. Stephen Pollard wouldn't have rushed out and bought a book of Poems for Corbyn - but lots of us in Labour, including myself, and probably the Jewish community too, would've been fairly accepting- perhaps with the odd grumble, but not fearful and furious at the man. He didn't. He obfuscated, lied, ignored, attacked those who raised the issue (see Jonathan Freedland). He made a relatively arcane problem about his objectively bad associations with cranks an urgent and sickening one. That is why, even if you take a fairly generous view of his initial actions, he is unfit to lead Labour.
The problem is that the bad associations weren't an accident they go to the very root of who he is and what he believes in. He could renounce his lifelong euroscepticism to pretend to back Remain in the referendum as he didn't care that much about Europe.
He cares passionately and deeply on this. He hates Israel. He can't be balanced or fair.
Oh I'd certainly agree with that now. And probably did at the time. My point was that even if you took the most generous view of Corbyn's associations initially - as @NickPalmer entreaties us to do. We're so far beyond that It's absurd to do so given his conduct since.
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
So, if the Jezzuits are so worried that a split will destroy their dreams, why don't they occasionally trim and compromise?
Hasn't it been widely trailed that the party will now adopt the full IHRA definition? That'd be the compromise that will be the pretext to dial back the attacks on Corbyn.
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
So, if the Jezzuits are so worried that a split will destroy their dreams, why don't they occasionally trim and compromise? Or even treat moderate MPs with a modicum of decency, rather than 'fuck off and joining the tories'?
Answer: because the Left can't. They exist in a world of total endless war and betrayal.
Indeed! Idiots of Corbyn's ilk would just love perpetual opposition. That gives them the luxury of carping on about Israel, Loyalists, Capitalists, Tories and Blairites, which is what they live for. Who would they have to complain about if they were put in the driving seat, surely not themselves?
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
I see three scenarios - One, the 'moderates' truly cannot take anymore, even with their tribal loyalty to Labour, and finally take the leap. Two, they are just expressing frustrations, and will continue to cause trouble when Corbyn has negative stories, but that's it, it is how they justify staying in place despite despairing of him. Three, Corbyn gets sick of his baggage causing difficulties, and anoints a successor who can carry the project forward.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
It would make for a good 'Labour's Black September' headline though.
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
I see three scenarios - One, the 'moderates' truly cannot take anymore, even with their tribal loyalty to Labour, and finally take the leap. Two, they are just expressing frustrations, and will continue to cause trouble when Corbyn has negative stories, but that's it, it is how they justify staying in place despite despairing of him. Three, Corbyn gets sick of his baggage causing difficulties, and anoints a successor who can carry the project forward.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
It would make for a good 'Labour's Black September' headline though.
And we are only just over two weeks away from September
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
So, if the Jezzuits are so worried that a split will destroy their dreams, why don't they occasionally trim and compromise? Or even treat moderate MPs with a modicum of decency, rather than 'fuck off and joining the tories'?
Answer: because the Left can't. They exist in a world of total endless war and betrayal.
Indeed! Idiots of Corbyn's ilk would just love perpetual opposition. That gives them the luxury of carping on about Israel, Loyalists, Capitalists, Tories and Blairites, which is what they live for. Who would they have to complain about if they were put in the driving seat, surely not themselves?
That's what I worry about. Who would they blame when they are actually at the cabinet table?
BBC, journalists, liberals, jews, moderate union members, the bloke who delivers the milk. The list is endless.
Close your eyes and imagine Chris Williamson as a Minister for, say, the Home Office.
Sky's lead with Dame Margaret Hodge , followed by Corbyn's declaration against the print media, McCluskey's attack on the party including Chuka Umunna and Tom Watson, and Jewish leaders renewing their attacks on Corbyn tonight all as covered in the Sky report portray a party at war and must be a precursor to a split
Surely September is the moment? Surely, the moderates can't look themselves in the mirror and stand 3 or 4 more years of this ultra hard left crap.
I see three scenarios - One, the 'moderates' truly cannot take anymore, even with their tribal loyalty to Labour, and finally take the leap. Two, they are just expressing frustrations, and will continue to cause trouble when Corbyn has negative stories, but that's it, it is how they justify staying in place despite despairing of him. Three, Corbyn gets sick of his baggage causing difficulties, and anoints a successor who can carry the project forward.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
I am afraid I am in the 2nd option camp, as far as predictions go. I just don't believe they have the guts for it and feel too much tribal loyalty (and I understand how hard this must be).
So far only Woodcock has truly looked in the mirror.
Kinnock is a factor here. He took on (a much softer) version of the hard left and won in the end.
This isn't Kinnock's time again. It is way more serious.
The passage of time (and the continued antics of the hard left) might ultimately loosen the tribal loyalty to the party. But the political arithmetic is brutal. I don't see it happening, it is more likely that the moderates just fade away.
If Umunna et al won’t quit the Labour Party now, that tells us everything. Britain is a few hundreds of thousands of votes away from electing somebody who genuinely hates this country. What is he doing to stop it?
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
So, if the Jezzuits are so worried that a split will destroy their dreams, why don't they occasionally trim and compromise? Or even treat moderate MPs with a modicum of decency, rather than 'fuck off and joining the tories'?
Answer: because the Left can't. They exist in a world of total endless war and betrayal.
There's a chance that the split occurs not in the Labour party, but in Momentum. There is a long history of leftist and anarchist groups splitting for a whole host of reasons: ideological arguments, personal disagreements, ambition: the joke about the 'People's Front of Judea' and the 'Judean People's Front' is funny because it rings true.
At the moment, they have a sniff of power, and Corbyn to focus around. If Corbyn goes, then who takes over may well divide them. Which might be contributing to the rather startlingly illogical defences of Corbyn we see on here and out in the wild.
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
So, if the Jezzuits are so worried that a split will destroy their dreams, why don't they occasionally trim and compromise? Or even treat moderate MPs with a modicum of decency, rather than 'fuck off and joining the tories'?
Answer: because the Left can't. They exist in a world of total endless war and betrayal.
Indeed! Idiots of Corbyn's ilk would just love perpetual opposition. That gives them the luxury of carping on about Israel, Loyalists, Capitalists, Tories and Blairites, which is what they live for. Who would they have to complain about if they were put in the driving seat, surely not themselves?
That's what I worry about. Who would they blame when they are actually at the cabinet table?
BBC, journalists, liberals, jews, moderate union members, the bloke who delivers the milk. The list is endless.
I know I am seen as optimistic in this, but I find it hard to believe the same level of cultish behaviour will be possible once a Corbyn government starts to disappoint, as all governments do, on its promises. Some will of course remain just as passionate and attack any critics, but I cannot see the same number doing so, going the full Venezuela.
Blimey, just got in. Looks like senior corbynista are seriously sh***ing themselves tonight that the break is about to happen.
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
Any betting opportunities?
I have Chukka as next PM at 160. But that was from 3 months ago, when a mate came up with a complex scenario (after a few beers) as to how we would end up with a National Government led by Chukka.
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
No, anything to the political left of Ken Clark is now dead and buried. Any split on the left under FPTP means Boris is PM, Sine Die. Well done Jezza!
So, if the Jezzuits are so worried that a split will destroy their dreams, why don't they occasionally trim and compromise? Or even treat moderate MPs with a modicum of decency, rather than 'fuck off and joining the tories'?
Answer: because the Left can't. They exist in a world of total endless war and betrayal.
Indeed! Idiots of Corbyn's ilk would just love perpetual opposition. That gives them the luxury of carping on about Israel, Loyalists, Capitalists, Tories and Blairites, which is what they live for. Who would they have to complain about if they were put in the driving seat, surely not themselves?
That's what I worry about. Who would they blame when they are actually at the cabinet table?
BBC, journalists, liberals, jews, moderate union members, the bloke who delivers the milk. The list is endless.
Close your eyes and imagine Chris Williamson as a Minister for, say, the Home Office.
Chilling is not the word.
Absolutely. What is more worrying is who the desperate voter turns too when Corbyn has destroyed Labour and a Hard Brexit Johnson government has done a similar job on the country. His pseudonym is Tommy and they sing about him at Kenilworth Road.
A Labour spokesperson says Jeremy Corbyn is "determined" to tackle anti-Semitism in the party and says Dame Margaret Hodge's comparison of the party's disciplinary proceedings to Nazi Germany is "extreme and disconnected from reality"
While finding Corbyn's excuses for how he keeps ending up talking to and associating with awful people increasingly lame, am I alone in thinking Labour's press office is busy trawling through historical photos to find examples of Tory MPs standing next to bad people right now?
While finding Corbyn's excuses for how he keeps ending up talking to and associating with awful people increasingly lame, am I alone in thinking Labour's press office is busy trawling through historical photos to find examples of Tory MPs standing next to bad people right now?
Maybe they'll find one of Theresa May running through a field of wheat?
A Labour spokesperson says Jeremy Corbyn is "determined" to tackle anti-Semitism in the party and says Dame Margaret Hodge's comparison of the party's disciplinary proceedings to Nazi Germany is "extreme and disconnected from reality"
Turns out comparing x to the Nazis is extreme, noted Jeremy, noted.
Well, Lady Chakrabarti did tell Labour in her report that they should 'resist the use' of Nazi metaphors in debates. About 'Israel-Palestine 'in particular', but in fairness it's not bad advice generally (well ok, it's not great advice since it only asks them to resist the use, but it is better than nothing), for once, even if the swiftness to resort to it on specific topics is...suspicious.
Comments
https://www.timesofisrael.com/veteran-uk-labour-lawmaker-calls-corbyn-a-racist-and-anti-semite/
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/may/11/milifan-prime-minister-ed-miliband
This is not going away and makes you wonder if this is evidence of a wider split coming in labour over this summer
True tories - Anti EU. Populist. Anti immigration. Pro Trump. Pro British identity (whatever idea they agree that is)
Jeremy Corbyn party - left/populist. Pro Putin.
Metropolitan liberal party. Pro EU. Mixture of Chuka Umunna, Yvette Cooper, Nick Clegg, Gary Lineker, Anna Soubry, Ken Clarke, Big_G, TSE, Southam Observer, about 75% of people on PB, Hope not Hate, Channel 4 news, the residual blairites, lib dems, Richard Branson. Supported by most broadsheet newspapers, the economist, etc.
I will be glad when they are gone.
https://tinyurl.com/y7lqq24h
Experts call for national debate about 'culture and ambition in white working class families' after figures show rise in university admissions for all ethnic groups except white people
New figures published by the Higher Education Statistics Agency (HESA) show the number of white students has fallen by more than 34,000 since 2013/14 – a decrease of 2 per cent – while in total enrolments rose by 1 per cent in the same period.
I do wonder to what extent some people are starting to work out that university really isn't worth it for them.
You can't simply marginalise the views you don't like. It doesn't work. That was what Labour tried to do with the SNP in 1997, and look how that turned out.
https://culteducation.com/warningsigns.html
I more meant that any new party could have access to hundreds of thousands of potential activists' contact details and data. The underrated story of the Labour 2016 election was data. Smith did little wrong in one sense - but had been eviscerated before he'd even got out of the starting blocks. They'd sent emails accusing him of being Big Pharma to half the party before he's given a proper speech. It's a huge stumbling block to a new party that they wouldn't be able to compete with the Labour/Momentum machine. Those broader campaigns could at least incubate one that could be competitive.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hope_not_Hate
He hates Corbyn
And Hopes he never becomes PM
It is a proportion of the Tory party and features within its electoral force arguably both Michael Gove and Boris Johnson. While the Faragists always backed Brexit arguably it was Gove et al winning over liberal sceptics like myself that tipped Brexit over the line.
Outstanding posts today from@MJW and @AlistairMeeks.
I see that @NickPalmer has introduced a new form of morality. According to him, Corbyn has not been attacked for what he has said and done (not true, btw but never mind) but for being present at places or with people and not saying anything and that this is unfair. A novel idea this: that not doing something should somehow absolve you from blame or criticism. One would like to think that he doesn’t really mean this because the implications of this are really quite terrifying but it is a sign of the way supporters of Corbyn are allowing their sense of basic morality to be degraded.
A very good account of how in a democracy apparently normal good people who are not themselves extreme can find themselves slowly and with little accommodations here and there, self-justifying explanations, self-delusions, and all the rest of it, end up facilitating and supporting, passively or actively, revolting extremists can be found in Sebastain Haffner’s Defying Hitler. A very good book and well worth reading for an account written at the time of how many young Germans fell under the spell of a bad man.
I do not say that Corbyn is like a Hitler, let me be clear, though some of his friends and associates on the Palestinian side are much more admiring of the man and his methods. But the book describes very well the process by which good men end up doing bad things and/pr supporting bad men, almost without realising the way they are slipping away from real decency. We have seen something like this on this forum with some of our posters sadly.
Well worth reading the book, if you haven’t.
If Labour were really concerned, they would have sued for libel. After all, what could be more libellous than suggesting that the leader of a political party honours terrorists? But doing so brings a wealth of danger so they have tried to avoid that.
Also, her parents fled Germany and Austria in the 1930’s but they went to Egypt where she was born. As a result of anti-semitism there they then came to England. So she has experience of not just European but also Arab anti-semitism. No wonder she despises someone like Corbyn.
"Jeremy Corbyn has said he did not know that a man he stood next to at a wreath-laying ceremony was a senior member of a militant Palestinian group.
Maher Taher, of the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine (PLFP), was pictured alongside the Labour leader at a 2014 event in Tunis.
The PLFP was later linked to an attack on an Israeli synagogue. The US and EU consider it to be a terrorist group.
Mr Corbyn told the BBC: "I was unaware of any of his background."...."
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-45208358
Not as an independent party but as a constituent of a party then they can again tip that party over the line. Even a 1% swing from Tory to Labour at the last election could have seen Corbyn becoming PM. So even if the proportion of the electorate who are metropolitan liberal eurosceptics is just 3% then under FPTP who that 3% vote for could make all the difference. That is why the two main parties are a coalition of interests and not homogenous.
1. Labour has a few anti-Semitic cranks, who Jeremy happens to hang around with as they're part of his faction.
2. Jews complain and ask for an apology and explanation
3. Corbyn supporters get angry at people daring to complain about Jeremy
4. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum.
5. So Jews complain again, louder this time.
6. Corbyn supporters get even angrier and cry conspiracy against those complaining (Jews)
7. Jews complain about the new lot of anti-Semitic conspiracist cranks
8. Jeremy does nothing or the bare minimum
9. Jews complain...
Rinse and repeat until you've got people who previously had never even heard of the Rothschilds before, and who thought Israel might be a nice holiday, talking about media-banker canals and the tentacles of the Israel lobby. It's sad, frightening - and sickening the whole thing is fuelled, half-deliberately, as a bit of common or garden conspiracism helps cement Corbyn, by self-proclaimed anti-racists like Owen Jones.
Will the MCB, so quick to want Boris punished because, they said, words have “consequences”, be similarly quick to want effective action taken against this imam whose words did have some pretty fatal consequences?
I don't understand why people take the MCB seriously anymore. Their actions and track record are no better than Christian extremists.
https://twitter.com/the_awakend/status/1029685536951345152
The metropolitan liberals eurosceptics are likely to live in the same constituencies as the metropolitan liberal pro EU voters, who would outnumber them anyway, so what leverage are they going to have?
The other thing is that if we leave with an EEA type deal, many eurosceptic liberals will probably be happy anyway.
He is the arsonist who then throws a cup of water onto the fire when the whole building has been consumed.
And why this crush on Victoria Derbyshire all of a sudden?
This is where people fall down looking for purity of thought. Pure believers don't win FPTP, getting the most votes does and that means appealing to multiple niches not one.
Not a good look for Corbyn or labour
He cares passionately and deeply on this. He hates Israel. He can't be balanced or fair.
Even those who wish Israel well need to recognise and criticise its awful behaviour and that amongst its political class there are groups and people who are, on any reading, pretty repellent.
Corbyn has always justified his meetings with Palestinians with pretty repellent views on the basis that it is important to have dialogue and a debate because this is the only way to get peace and that this is what he has been doing all his life and that it has been his life’s work.
Pretty strong words. So let’s take him at his word and assume he is sincere.
If what he says is the case, 2 questions for his supporters on here:-
1. Why over the last 40 years has he never once had a debate or dialogue with anyone on the Israeli side, including any of the ghastly people listed above, in order to advance peace?
2. Why not, now that he’s Opposition Leader and a possible PM, now seek to meet some of those on the Israeli side - from moderates to extremists to everyone in between - in order to have dialogue and debate and advance the cause of peace? What possible objection could he have to doing this?
Well, chaps, you have dug your own nasty little hole.
https://twitter.com/AaronBastani/status/1030168530342367236
As he had put a couple of quid on, I didn't want to be left out.
The answer is obvious.
September seems too soon for two of those scenarios, never mind how likely any of them are.
Either he's a liar or he's a idiot. Neither option qualifies him for high office - but, sadly, neither excludes him either.
The spectacle of senior Corbynites spending the next few months running around screaming at Moderates to f**k off and stay in the Labour party is going to be a joy to behold...
Answer: because the Left can't. They exist in a world of total endless war and betrayal.
The BBC are now reporting Corbyn claiming he didn't know the man he was standing next to at the wreath laying ceremony was a senior member of the militant Palestinian group, Maher Taher of the popular front for the liberation of Palestine.
Corbyn is unbelievable
So far only Woodcock has truly looked in the mirror.
Kinnock is a factor here. He took on (a much softer) version of the hard left and won in the end.
This isn't Kinnock's time again. It is way more serious.
BBC, journalists, liberals, jews, moderate union members, the bloke who delivers the milk. The list is endless.
Close your eyes and imagine Chris Williamson as a Minister for, say, the Home Office.
Chilling is not the word.
Really is another important moment in the disintegration of labour
I have no idea how the sides can ever resolve this internal war
Sorry @Philip_Thompson - you’re the liberal tinsel to mine and @archer101au grimdark Brexitry
If Umunna et al won’t quit the Labour Party now, that tells us everything. Britain is a few
hundreds of thousands of votes away from electing somebody who genuinely hates this country. What is he doing to stop it?
At the moment, they have a sniff of power, and Corbyn to focus around. If Corbyn goes, then who takes over may well divide them. Which might be contributing to the rather startlingly illogical defences of Corbyn we see on here and out in the wild.
https://twitter.com/mr_s_wilder/status/1030197895600001031
Turns out comparing x to the Nazis is extreme, noted Jeremy, noted.