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In Peter Hennessey’s Reflections radio series, Margaret Beckett was asked why she abandoned the Catholic faith of her childhood.  The event which crystallised her disenchantment was John Freeman asking Cardinal Heenan what one word summed up the Church.  Margaret waited, expecting something like “charity”or “love”. The Cardinal’s answer was “Authority”.

Read the full story here

TheScreamingEagles

Super thread as usual.

TheScreamingEagles

Oh was that a primus inter pares.

Nigelb

TheScreamingEagles said:

Oh was that a primus inter pares.

Probably because someone has messed up access to comments again.

It's a vanilla kind of first.

TheScreamingEagles

Sort of on topic.

https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1028994248291635201?s=21

oxfordsimon

FPT -

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/Jamin2g/status/1028983556939415552

Corbyn clearly has no honour.

His unbelievable denial of the day is so inept

The Labour Party spin machine has been issuing an obvious lie for the past day

And if you want to pursue peaceful dialogue, you have to talk to both sides in a conflict. Not just your mates.

DavidL

“It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorist, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim……."

Really? That strikes me as an absurd thing to say.

grabcocque

There's nothing to be gained politically from honourable behaviour. In politics, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

DavidL

grabcocque said:

There's nothing to be gained politically from honourable behaviour. In politics, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Do you think that is why our political class so rarely perform good deeds? Self preservation? Or are the do gooders simply weeded out?

Sean_F

grabcocque said:

There's nothing to be gained politically from honourable behaviour. In politics, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Being purely unprincipled is ultimately self-defeating. Being so principled that you can never compromise with bad people means that you will achieve nothing.

The trick is to work out when your principles need to be compromised.

Cyclefree

DavidL said:

“It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorist, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim……."

Really? That strikes me as an absurd thing to say.

It is not me saying it but a leading Arab writer in an Egyptian publication. At the time he wrote it (in 2004) there had been a number of grotesque terrorist attacks, of which Beslan was the culmination. The whole article is well worth reading and, if you are interested, I can send you a copy. I do not know whether it is available online.

Sean_F

One good rule of thumb is always to distrust people in any organisation who are holier than thou, whether in the religious sense, or in the politically correct secular sense.

They will always be compensating for something.

Slackbladder

I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

TheScreamingEagles

Slackbladder said:

I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

Trump Towers?

The_Apocalypse

Blimey:
https://twitter.com/politico/status/1028955597331476482?s=21

Slackbladder

TheScreamingEagles said:

Slackbladder said:

I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

Trump Towers?

No, this is work, much closer to home.

Cyclefree

TheScreamingEagles said:

Sort of on topic.

https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1028994248291635201?s=21

As far as I can see from the photo, he is only one of two people holding the wreath. He then joined in some prayers. That's an odd way of not being involved in a ceremony.

Still, as we see with him and Trump blatant lying is no bar to electoral success.

John_M

Slackbladder said:

I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

The bunker from where Jezza will be directing our post neo-liberal economy?

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/DavidDPaxton/status/1028997400893878272

MarqueeMark

Slackbladder said:

I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

You're not laying a wreath in.....?

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Good article, Miss Cyclefree. It reminds me a bit of King John. He often, especially as a prince, came to short term arrangements, frequently frittering away critical territory and fortresses in what today is France, in return for a temporary benefit and creating for himself the long term reputation of capitulation, cowardice and ill-judgement.

[And that's before we get onto starving prisoners of war to death, extortion, and the odd spot of sexual molestation].

Slackbladder

MarqueeMark said:

Slackbladder said:

I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

You're not laying a wreath in.....?

I might be present for it...

DavidL

Cyclefree said:

DavidL said:

“It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorist, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim……."

Really? That strikes me as an absurd thing to say.

It is not me saying it but a leading Arab writer in an Egyptian publication. At the time he wrote it (in 2004) there had been a number of grotesque terrorist attacks, of which Beslan was the culmination. The whole article is well worth reading and, if you are interested, I can send you a copy. I do not know whether it is available online.

I appreciate that this is a quote but the number of terrorist events in 2004 was remarkable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_2004

Many were Muslim, especially the bigger events like Madrid, but many were not. Some are quite ambiguous. Eg Chechens blowing up the Moscow underground. They might have been Muslims but it is doubtful that was their motivation.

MarqueeMark

grabcocque said:

There's nothing to be gained politically from honourable behaviour. In politics, no good deed ever goes unpunished.

Ask Ma Beckett.....

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/Maomentum_/status/1028998947912724480

Philip_Thompson

FPT

TheScreamingEagles said:

TOPPING said:

Another great day on PB when PB's bien pensant (let's guess, largely) white, comfortable, millions of miles from seeing them every or indeed any day posters discuss the ins and outs and traditions of Islam and the UK's muslims.

Tell me about it.

I’m fully expecting Philip Thompson to be able recite the Shahada.

Not at all. I am an atheist or what I believe from my understanding of Islam can be called a heretic or kafir. I don't care all that much about the ins and outs of fanatical medieval mythologies.

I do care however about equality. Specifically I oppose equally any fundamentalist cults that say women, gays etc are second class citizens or chattel. Whether that be in the guise of Muslims, Christians (like Westboro Baptist Church) or any other medieval garbage.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1028998476946972672

https://twitter.com/joseph_gellman/status/1028997584801751041

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/Bevanite2017/status/1028999459492032512

David_Evershed

Slackbladder said:

I can't say too much for professional reasons, but lets just say i'm going somewhere tomorrow which is 'interesting' politicalwise.....

House of Commons and House of Lords.

The buildings neeed repair. £bns of contracts to be had

Cyclefree

DavidL said:

Cyclefree said:

DavidL said:

“It is a certain fact that not all Muslims are terrorist, but it is equally certain, and exceptionally painful, that almost all terrorists are Muslim……."

Really? That strikes me as an absurd thing to say.

It is not me saying it but a leading Arab writer in an Egyptian publication. At the time he wrote it (in 2004) there had been a number of grotesque terrorist attacks, of which Beslan was the culmination. The whole article is well worth reading and, if you are interested, I can send you a copy. I do not know whether it is available online.

I appreciate that this is a quote but the number of terrorist events in 2004 was remarkable: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_terrorist_incidents_in_2004

Many were Muslim, especially the bigger events like Madrid, but many were not. Some are quite ambiguous. Eg Chechens blowing up the Moscow underground. They might have been Muslims but it is doubtful that was their motivation.

The whole article is very interesting and moving. It is an attack on those whom he feels have perverted the gentle peaceful Islam he was brought up with resulting in some young men behaving in appallingly violent ways and a plea to go back to the religion he knows and loves. I did not include it to discuss terrorism but because his shame at how his religion had been perverted echoes my own feelings about how my religion has been abused by far too many priests for their own selfish and sadistic desires and that there was a similar culture of unchallengeable authority and denial which made matters so much worse.

TOPPING

I'm with @Dura_Ace on this one.

Ask 20 people on the street about the Munich Massacre and no one will have a clue what it was. Something about football, perhaps.

AlastairMeeks

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

TheScreamingEagles

TOPPING said:

I'm with @Dura_Ace on this one.

Ask 20 people on the street about the Munich Massacre and no one will have a clue what it was. Something about football, perhaps.

In our office when you ask the Millenials about the Munich massacre that’s to do when Manchester United had a team wiped out in a plane accident.

As an aside those feckers don’t know how easy they have it.

One of them looked at me blankly when I told them when I was texting at their age I had to press ‘7’
four times to get an s.

The_Apocalypse

Corbyn - there really are no words for this guy. His actions today, and those who have attempted to defend him reminds me of this thread:
https://twitter.com/gilofthepeople/status/1027473492109914112?s=21
https://twitter.com/gilofthepeople/status/1027476710751698944?s=21
https://twitter.com/gilofthepeople/status/1027477071784763392?s=21
Meanwhile this is pretty interesting:
https://twitter.com/pjtheeconomist/status/1028965888299548677?s=21

Cyclefree

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

TheScreamingEagles said:

TOPPING said:

Another great day on PB when PB's bien pensant (let's guess, largely) white, comfortable, millions of miles from seeing them every or indeed any day posters discuss the ins and outs and traditions of Islam and the UK's muslims.

Tell me about it.

I’m fully expecting Philip Thompson to be able recite the Shahada.

Not at all. I am an atheist or what I believe from my understanding of Islam can be called a heretic or kafir. I don't care all that much about the ins and outs of fanatical medieval mythologies.

I do care however about equality. Specifically I oppose equally any fundamentalist cults that say women, gays etc are second class citizens or chattel. Whether that be in the guise of Muslims, Christians (like Westboro Baptist Church) or any other medieval garbage.

@Topping also said: "You and David sound like your parents."

Both my parents were immigrants. And knew something about what integration into British society means in practice, as do I as someone whose mother tongue is not English, who belongs to a minority religion (in Britain anyway) and who spent most of my childhood living in two countries and spending a lot of time in a third.

On the previous thread, we were discussing the effect on our society [of practices by some Muslims], of which they are a part. No man being an island and all that. Or perhaps @Topping doesn't believe in that, which would be ironic, given the subject matter.

The attitude of men to women's dress and what it says about their view of women is something that affects all women, whatever their religion or culture is.

Pro_Rata

AlastairMeeks said:

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

My BBC mobile app is simply not running the story, except in the newspaper review.

TheScreamingEagles

AlastairMeeks said:

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

The thing that gets me is that Corbyn wrote about it at the time in The Morning Star.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/OzKaterji/status/1029001578156568576

Slackbladder

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

The thing that gets me is that Corbyn wrote about it at the time in The Morning Star.

At that point Corbyn's support for terrorists was a feature, not a bug.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/DamCou/status/1028267122680627201

Richard_Nabavi

Slackbladder said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

The thing that gets me is that Corbyn wrote about it at the time in The Morning Star.

At that point Corbyn's support for terrorists was a feature, not a bug.

It still is.

The_Apocalypse

Pro_Rata said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

My BBC mobile app is simply not running the story, except in the newspaper review.

Yes, knowing about this story seems to all depend on whether you read the Mail or watch Sky News.

Cyclefree

TheScreamingEagles said:

TOPPING said:

I'm with @Dura_Ace on this one.

Ask 20 people on the street about the Munich Massacre and no one will have a clue what it was. Something about football, perhaps.

In our office when you ask the Millenials about the Munich massacre that’s to do when Manchester United had a team wiped out in a plane accident.

As an aside those feckers don’t know how easy they have it.

One of them looked at me blankly when I told them when I was texting at their age I had to press ‘7’
four times to get an s.

Tell them that it's the same as putting a wreath on the grave of the terrorists who shot 80 odd people at a pop concert in Paris (and were shot by the French police) and tried to blow people up at a football stadium. Or on the grave of men who killed a load of drinkers in Borough Market (and were killed by the British police). Would they like the Leader of the Opposition to do that?

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/SkyNewsPolitics/status/1028987945573859333

TOPPING

Cyclefree said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

TheScreamingEagles said:

TOPPING said:

Aims.

Tell me about it.

I’m fully expecting Philip Thompson to be able recite the Shahada.

Not at all. I am an atheist or what I believe from my understanding of Islam can be called a heretic or kafir. I don't care all that much about the ins and outs of fanatical medieval mythologies.

I do care however about equality. Specifically I oppose equally any fundamentalist cults that say women, gays etc are second class citizens or chattel. Whether that be in the guise of Muslims, Christians (like Westboro Baptist Church) or any other medieval garbage.

@Topping also said: "You and David sound like your parents."

Both my parents were immigrants. And knew something about what integration into British society means in practice, as do I as someone whose mother tongue is not English, who belongs to a minority religion (in Britain anyway) and who spent most of my childhood living in two countries and spending a lot of time in a third.

On the previous thread, we were discussing the effect on our society [of practices by some Muslims], of which they are a part. No man being an island and all that. Or perhaps @Topping doesn't believe in that, which would be ironic, given the subject matter.

The attitude of men to women's dress and what it says about their view of women is something that affects all women, whatever their religion or culture is.

Every immigrant who comes here has an effect on our society. Your parents, the Windrush generation, Jews, Huguenots, Muslims. That is how our society changes. Some Jews wear funny clothes, so do some Muslims, so will lorryload after lorryload of carnival goers in Notting Hill in a couple of weeks time.

You don't like the niqab because it is a symbol of oppression. But confusingly (for some), it seems that some people choose to wear it. Because, and this relates to the nub of the issue on the previous thread, the people wearing it here are British Muslims. And they incorporate both the traditions of their parents' and grandparents' culture, and also modern British culture.

And that is a continuum. Hence some young British Muslims wear the niqab out of choice, and some have atrocious taste in (modern, British) shoes, say.

They are all British, but you take exception to one small segment. Now I don't disagree that some are forced to wear the niqab, just as other religions force their adherents to do or wear things. But if I were you I'd relax about it all. As the daughter of immigrants, you should know that it is very un-British to worry too much about what other people say, do or wear, if it is not harming you.

Edit: alternatively, hence my "parents" comment, I suppose it is very British to do so. cf punks, mods, rockers, goths, etc.

Cyclefree

AlastairMeeks said:

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

Who do you think might replace him, were that to happen?

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1029004923726450688

https://twitter.com/abradacabla/status/1029004925668417536

Morris_Dancer

Ms. Apocalypse, it's shocking if the BBC just aren't covering it, particularly given the substantial coverage they've given the oaf and his letterbox comments.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/mocent0/status/1028157703171047424

Cyclefree

TOPPING said:

Cyclefree said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

TheScreamingEagles said:

TOPPING said:

Aims.

@Topping also said: "You and David sound like your parents."

Both my parents were immigrants. And knew something about what integration into British society means in practice, as do I as someone whose mother tongue is not English, who belongs to a minority religion (in Britain anyway) and who spent most of my childhood living in two countries and spending a lot of time in a third.

On the previous thread, we were discussing the effect on our society [of practices by some Muslims], of which they are a part. No man being an island and all that. Or perhaps @Topping doesn't believe in that, which would be ironic, given the subject matter.

The attitude of men to women's dress and what it says about their view of women is something that affects all women, whatever their religion or culture is.

Every immigrant who comes here has an effect on our society. Your parents, the Windrush generation, Jews, Huguenots, Muslims. That is how our society changes. Some Jews wear funny clothes, so do some Muslims, so will lorryload after lorryload of carnival goers in Notting Hill in a couple of weeks time.

You don't like the niqab because it is a symbol of oppression. But confusingly (for some), it seems that some people choose to wear it. Because, and this relates to the nub of the issue on the previous thread, the people wearing it here are British Muslims. And they incorporate both the traditions of their parents' and grandparents' culture, and also modern British culture.

And that is a continuum. Hence some young British Muslims wear the niqab out of choice, and some have atrocious taste in (modern, British) shoes, say.

They are all British, but you take exception to one small segment. Now I don't disagree that some are forced to wear the niqab, just as other religions force their adherents to do or wear things. But if I were you I'd relax about it all. As the daughter of immigrants, you should know that it is very un-British to worry too much about what other people say, do or wear, if it is not harming you.

Edit: alternatively, hence my "parents" comment, I suppose it is very British to do so. cf punks, mods, rockers, goths, etc.

I do think extreme separateness does harm our society and misogynistic attitudes to women do harm other women. But will leave it there since there is another - and simply wonderful - header to comment on.

And I have to pop out to the doctor's.

Till later.

Pulpstar

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.

John_M

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/DPJHodges/status/1029004923726450688

https://twitter.com/abradacabla/status/1029004925668417536

Corbyn is an IRA sympathiser as is well known. It's all priced in. People who were already repelled will stay repelled, those who aren't, won't be. Corbyn's history is both an asset and a liability.

Slackbladder

Cyclefree said:

AlastairMeeks said:

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

Who do you think might replace him, were that to happen?

question is if the remaining inner circle could rally behind a single name, or if it descends into a free for all.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Pulpstar, I hope your bet fails (but you make lots of money on other bets which are less harmful to the nation).

NorthofStoke

BBC silence is shocking. I believe that if they gave it 50% of the Boris covrage then Corbyn would be finished. If they don't cover this properly I think they have crossed some sort of line.

Cyclefree

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/DamCou/status/1028267122680627201

What's fascinating about that picture is how none of the actual Arabs in that photo have their hands anywhere near that wreath. Only Corbyn. As if it was really important to have him holding it - and photographed doing so.

Maybe the next excuse will be that he was set up....... by you know who......

BannedOnTheRun

I'm surprised that Boris didn't hear of the massive, angry backlash to a 2015 independent film called Letterbox, about a muslim girl who goes to Glastonbury in her Mum's Niqab. He may have been more careful.

What? There wasn't a massive angry backlash to that film, which in its title is clearly referencing the visual similarity between the niqab slit and a letterbox? How can that be so?

http://www.letterboxfilm.co.uk/

Pulpstar

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Pulpstar, I hope your bet fails (but you make lots of money on other bets which are less harmful to the nation).

I'll probably sell him if he becomes Labour leader before the Tory contest since he should collpase into 7-1ish or perhaps shorter if May has clung on for dear life too. The profit on the bet will be going towards increased tax if he makes it I suspect.

AlastairMeeks

Pulpstar said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.

I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.

The_Apocalypse

@Morris_Dancer I’m not surprised, they haven’t covered many Corbyn stories on the app.

Pulpstar

NorthofStoke said:

BBC silence is shocking. I believe that if they gave it 50% of the Boris covrage then Corbyn would be finished. If they don't cover this properly I think they have crossed some sort of line.

Are the BBC too pro-Corbyn or anti-Corbyn at the moment ?
I get confused.

DavidL

O/t but the Scottish High Court has today quashed the conviction of Mark Lundy for murder. Unbelievably, that is the second time this has happened. His first conviction was quashed by the Privy Council on human rights grounds relating to the admissibility of certain evidence. The second time, today, the conviction was quashed because of an intemperate and inaccurate speech to the Jury by the AD which the trial judge did not adequately correct.

The victim was stabbed 4x. It is not in dispute that Lundy did it. What is in dispute is whether it was self defence or not. He is to be retried. I just cannot imagine what it will be like for the victims family going through this yet again.

TheScreamingEagles

https://twitter.com/tseofpb/status/1029007486349656065?s=21

Richard_Nabavi

To be fair, the BBC usually waits to see what the Guardian thinks is newsworthy. Corbyn's wreath-laying hobby is currently the top story on the Guardian website, so I expect the BBC will get round to it eventually (probably with something along the lines of "Jeremy Corbyn was present at a ceremony for the perpetrators of the Munich Olympics massacre, a BBC investigation has revealed").

Casino_Royale

Sean_F said:

One good rule of thumb is always to distrust people in any organisation who are holier than thou, whether in the religious sense, or in the politically correct secular sense.

They will always be compensating for something.

There are quite a few of those.

Philip_Thompson

DavidL said:

O/t but the Scottish High Court has today quashed the conviction of Mark Lundy for murder. Unbelievably, that is the second time this has happened. His first conviction was quashed by the Privy Council on human rights grounds relating to the admissibility of certain evidence. The second time, today, the conviction was quashed because of an intemperate and inaccurate speech to the Jury by the AD which the trial judge did not adequately correct.

The victim was stabbed 4x. It is not in dispute that Lundy did it. What is in dispute is whether it was self defence or not. He is to be retried. I just cannot imagine what it will be like for the victims family going through this yet again.

What does "quashed by the Privy Council" mean in practice?

Somehow I'm doubting Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson etc sat together and quashed the verdict.

Morris_Dancer

Ms. Apocalypse, doesn't appear to be on the BBC Politics page either.

GarethoftheVale2

AlastairMeeks said:

I look forward to the new Corbynite line to take. No doubt the Daily Mail will still be somehow responsible for this outrage.

I think our host may have been very astute indeed to bet on Jeremy Corbyn not seeing the year out. Both the original story and the incredible ineptness in seeking to deflect it look very damaging indeed.

Any other leader would be sunk by this but Corbyn seems to be as teflon as Trump. I can't see Corbyn voluntarily resigning (or being allowed to resign) and the moderates have already shot their bolt in trying to oust him.

Alanbrooke

TOPPING said:

Cyclefree said:

Philip_Thompson said:

FPT

TheScreamingEagles said:

TOPPING said:

Aims.

Tell me about it.

I’m fully expecting Philip Thompson to be able recite the Shahada.

Not at all. I am an atheist or what I believe from my understanding of Islam can be called a heretic or kafir. I don't care all that much about the ins and outs of fanatical medieval mythologies.

I do care however about equality. Specifically I oppose equally any fundamentalist cults that say women, gays etc are second class citizens or chattel. Whether that be in the guise of Muslims, Christians (like Westboro Baptist Church) or any other medieval garbage.

@Topping also said: "You and David sound like your parents."

Both my parents were immigrants. And k so will lorryload after lorryload of carnival goers in Notting Hill in a couple of weeks time.

You don't like the niqab because it is a symbol of oppression. But confusingly (for some), it seems that some people choose to wear it. Because, and this relates to the nub of the issue on the previous thread, the people wearing it here are British Muslims. And they incorporate both the traditions of their parents' and grandparents' culture, and also modern British culture.

And that is a continuum. Hence some young British Muslims wear the niqab out of choice, and some have atrocious taste in (modern, British) shoes, say.

They are all British, but you take exception to one small segment. Now I don't disagree that some are forced to wear the niqab, just as other religions force their adherents to do or wear things. But if I were you I'd relax about it all. As the daughter of immigrants, you should know that it is very un-British to worry too much about what other people say, do or wear, if it is not harming you.

Edit: alternatively, hence my "parents" comment, I suppose it is very British to do so. cf punks, mods, rockers, goths, etc.

Dear Dr Topping

I find that if I wear an innocent orange neckband round parts of Belfast policemen try to stop me and ask me to remove my fashion choice. Why is that ?

TheScreamingEagles

Philip_Thompson said:

DavidL said:

O/t but the Scottish High Court has today quashed the conviction of Mark Lundy for murder. Unbelievably, that is the second time this has happened. His first conviction was quashed by the Privy Council on human rights grounds relating to the admissibility of certain evidence. The second time, today, the conviction was quashed because of an intemperate and inaccurate speech to the Jury by the AD which the trial judge did not adequately correct.

The victim was stabbed 4x. It is not in dispute that Lundy did it. What is in dispute is whether it was self defence or not. He is to be retried. I just cannot imagine what it will be like for the victims family going through this yet again.

What does "quashed by the Privy Council" mean in practice?

Somehow I'm doubting Jeremy Corbyn and Boris Johnson etc sat together and quashed the verdict.

https://www.jcpc.uk/

notme

NorthofStoke said:

BBC silence is shocking. I believe that if they gave it 50% of the Boris covrage then Corbyn would be finished. If they don't cover this properly I think they have crossed some sort of line.

If it wasnt for Boris helping him out, this really must be the highpoint for the PLP who have flirted with the idea that they cant stay in a Corbyn led Labour Party. This is big, the mail article initially seemed like it was maybe over egging it, then squakbox went out of their way to denounce it all as fake, setup by the right wing MSM. But this has now got to the point of, yes, he actually did do what the Mail accused him of.

TheScreamingEagles

How long before those Commonwealth nations decide to take back control from a foreign court?

#CANZUK

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/MediaGuido/status/1029008995007295488

Richard_Nabavi

How on earth decent Labour MPs, those that haven't already drifted off, can in all conscience remain in the party is a complete mystery.

Not that this story is anything new, of course. Anyone who's being paying attention for the last thirty years, or even the last four years, should know how vile Corbyn is.

Scott_P

Richard_Nabavi said:

How on earth decent Labour MPs, those that haven't already drifted off, can in all conscience remain in the party is a complete mystery.

Not that this story is anything new, of course. Anyone who's being paying attention for the last thirty years, or even the last four years, should know how vile Corbyn is.

Maybe, just maybe, they are calculating the point of maximum leverage.

Or not.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/abradacabla/status/1029009738678329344

Tissue_Price

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.

I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.

Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.

Recidivist

I have a feeling that whatever the rights and wrongs of whatever the latest thing Corbyn is supposed to have done is, most people will very sensibly not take too much notice of what his opponents say about it.

In the meantime, there are Israelis who support Corbyn, and more who disagree but respect his position.

https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-jeremy-corbyn-for-u-k-prime-minister-1.6362301

TheScreamingEagles

Tissue_Price said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.

I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.

Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.

Grim Wreather?

Chapeau Sir. CHAPEAU.

Rhubarb

Cyclefree said:

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/DamCou/status/1028267122680627201

What's fascinating about that picture is how none of the actual Arabs in that photo have their hands anywhere near that wreath. Only Corbyn. As if it was really important to have him holding it - and photographed doing so.

Maybe the next excuse will be that he was set up....... by you know who......

The truth of the matter is that Mr Corbyn is desperately trying to get away from a floating wreath that's chasing him down like the balloon from The Prisoner. Can't you see the fear in his eyes?

williamglenn

The implosion of Corbyn at this point would be a huge "unknown unknown" in British politics. Who knows where it would end up?

TOPPING

Richard_Nabavi said:

How on earth decent Labour MPs, those that haven't already drifted off, can in all conscience remain in the party is a complete mystery.

Not that this story is anything new, of course. Anyone who's being paying attention for the last thirty years, or even the last four years, should know how vile Corbyn is.

We have heard from @RochdalePioneers, in a very eloquent post, about how the Labour Party, in the form for example, of Labour Councils, continues to do good things and that overall Corbyn does and should not detract from those good things and that good work.

Now there is no one on this board who seems to dislike Corbyn more than @RochdalePioneers who I understand is a Labour Councillor.

But answer to my question of how do you look your Jewish residents in the face, as a member of today's Labour Party, came there none.

notme

Recidivist said:

I have a feeling that whatever the rights and wrongs of whatever the latest thing Corbyn is supposed to have done is, most people will very sensibly not take too much notice of what his opponents say about it.

Pure Trumpism, blended and rendered down into a concentrated essence.

MarqueeMark

notme said:

NorthofStoke said:

BBC silence is shocking. I believe that if they gave it 50% of the Boris covrage then Corbyn would be finished. If they don't cover this properly I think they have crossed some sort of line.

If it wasnt for Boris helping him out, this really must be the highpoint for the PLP who have flirted with the idea that they cant stay in a Corbyn led Labour Party. This is big, the mail article initially seemed like it was maybe over egging it, then squakbox went out of their way to denounce it all as fake, setup by the right wing MSM. But this has now got to the point of, yes, he actually did do what the Mail accused him of.

It shouldn't matter a damn what Boris has said, this issue should be judged on its own merits - that 160 Labour MPs tell Corbyn to resign as Leader, or else they resign the Labour Whip.

Using Boris as cover is playing the CCHQ tune, of keeping Corbyn in place.

AlastairMeeks

Tissue_Price said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.

I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.

Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.

Yes, Labour leader. Phew, someone is not as dopey as me.

The Grim Wreather is a fantastic coinage.

TOPPING

Alanbrooke said:

Dear Dr Topping

I find that if I wear an innocent orange neckband round parts of Belfast policemen try to stop me and ask me to remove my fashion choice. Why is that ?

Jeez Alan I even have to sort out your blockquoting.

I am genuinely not sure what point you are trying to make.

oxfordsimon

Another less-than-honourable member has been sent for trial:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-labour-mp-fiona-onasanya-13076412

How on earth can such a simple case require 7 days of trial???

Recidivist

notme said:

Recidivist said:

I have a feeling that whatever the rights and wrongs of whatever the latest thing Corbyn is supposed to have done is, most people will very sensibly not take too much notice of what his opponents say about it.

Pure Trumpism, blended and rendered down into a concentrated essence.

No - critical thinking.

TheScreamingEagles

AlastairMeeks said:

Tissue_Price said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.

I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.

Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.

Yes, Labour leader. Phew, someone is not as dopey as me.

The Grim Wreather is a fantastic coinage.

I reckon I’m the first person on twitter to call Jeremy Corbyn the Grim Wreather.

Ahem.

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/ExcelPope/status/1029011293829775360

Nemtynakht

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/MediaGuido/status/1029008995007295488

This is what I was talking about earlier. I do think the BBC has a difficult job with impartiality but they clearly hate Boris and it shows in their output. Remember 60% of the population agree with Boris but any crisis involving the Tories is only eclipsed by a BBC in crisis story - they love them!

david_herdson

Outstanding piece. Many thanks.

David_Evershed

Sky News just reported Corbyn's wreath laying fairly comprehensively.

Whilst the BBC gave some coverage to the wreath laying but with caveats such as that the palestinians' graves were of those who were "alleged by some" to be the terrorists responsible for the killing of Israelis at Munich.

MarqueeMark

Scott_P said:

https://twitter.com/stephenpollard/status/1028998476946972672

https://twitter.com/joseph_gellman/status/1028997584801751041

In other news:

Hitler: "I was present at Nuremburg rally, but I don't think I was actually involved in it..."

dr_spyn

https://twitter.com/ProfTimBale/status/1028995016914620417

In the thick of it was satire, then Corbyn turned up.

Alanbrooke

TheScreamingEagles said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Tissue_Price said:

AlastairMeeks said:

Pulpstar said:

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Meeks, I'd like to believe Corbyn would be gone but I'll believe it when I see it.

Knowing current trends he'll just be replaced with McDonnell.

I do hope so, I'm on him at 890-1 for next PM.

I'm on him at 50/1 for next Prime Minister. @Tissue_Price would not be happy.

Next Labour Leader, shurely? Good bet.

In a more normal world today's lies and contortions would surely be the end for the Grim Wreather.

Yes, Labour leader. Phew, someone is not as dopey as me.

The Grim Wreather is a fantastic coinage.

I reckon I’m the first person on twitter to call Jeremy Corbyn the Grim Wreather.

Ahem.

Ninsense

youre a South Asian man

your mum did it for you

TheScreamingEagles

oxfordsimon said:

Another less-than-honourable member has been sent for trial:

https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/politics/breaking-labour-mp-fiona-onasanya-13076412

How on earth can such a simple case require 7 days of trial???

3 defendants and multiple charges, 7 days sounds fair

Or perhaps you’ll be off to Bristol to berate the judge in the trial of Ben Stokes and others?

Alanbrooke

TOPPING said:

Alanbrooke said:

Dear Dr Topping

I find that if I wear an innocent orange neckband round parts of Belfast policemen try to stop me and ask me to remove my fashion choice. Why is that ?

Jeez Alan I even have to sort out your blockquoting.

I am genuinely not sure what point you are trying to make.

just out for an afternoon troll Topping

Scott_P

https://twitter.com/OliverCooper/status/1029013102036242432

oxfordsimon

Surprised that Corbyn didn't try the 'I don't speak Arabic so didn't understand what was going on' line...