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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Sean Fear looks back to the Jewish boys during his school-days and wonders just what has happened to LABOUR
"Today, other than another article bemoaning a situation of the Party’s own making, nothing has changed. There is no trust left. We find ourselves asking once again for action, not words" pic.twitter.com/jmNDX9Xvqa
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Like no-one, really.
Another day of arguing anti-Semitism vs anti Zionism?
Time to get up and do something else.
What worries me are the comments under articles about the problems Labour and Corbyn are having - and in a couple of cases, on my Facebook feed with people I know. In their defence of Corby and Labour, they can go (ahem) over the top and propagate memes that could be construed as anti-Semitic.
Now, it's possible to say that comments below the line on newspapers and the like are filled with trolls, and that they're not real Labour supporters. Except some people who are known to the wider public have made such comments, and, as I say above, people I personally know have crossed the line (and no, I won't give details).
This is helping normalise anti-Semitism and spreading hatred.
It is perfectly possible to criticise Israel without crossing the line into anti-Semitism. Which makes me wonder why people are not doing so ?
Dr. Foxy, it's a subject worthy of much attention.
FPT: F1: having another glance at the Red Bull 2nd Chap market. Odds unchanged but, as a reminder, there are two clear favourites with Gasly 1.57 and Sainz 2.62.
Hartley is third favourite at 13. That makes no sense to me as Toro Rosso tried to replace him this season (during the season), so why would he be promoted? The Red Bull seat, even as second fiddle, is one that's very attractive.
Kubica is 17. It'd be a great story for him to return but he was testing and didn't make it in this year. Plus, he's an unknown quantity right now, whereas there are plenty of other drivers who would jump at the chance for a top seat.
Kvyat's 21. See Hartley, and add that he isn't driving in F1 any more.
Wehrlein is 34. Left Sauber last year, and appears to have been a little carried away with his own hype (unlike Leclerc).
That leaves, besides the two favourites, Raikkonen at 29 and Alonso at 51 (34 and 61 with boost, respectively). Raikkonen can be an ideal wingman for Verstappen, but the rumour is that with the change in Ferrari's leadership they're leaning towards retaining the Finn and postponing Leclerc's promotion. If that's not the case, Raikkonen could be a good selection.
Alonso would be more disruptive, but also faster. The two elder drivers are probably only in the sport for a couple of seasons, though, which may suit Red Bull.
Anyway, I think Gasly or Sainz is pretty likely but perhaps not enough to warrant their odds being so short. Mr. B's [think it was him, apologies if not] reasoning yesterday that if it were Sainz, out of his Renault seat next year, he would've been announced pretty much immediately was something that made sense to me. But that also raises a question mark over Gasly, because if there are only two chaps to pick from and one isn't chosen, that means Gasly should've been announced pronto (although there may be some I-dotting and T-crossing, so it's not 100%).
If one of the favourites doesn't get the gig, I think Raikkonen/Alonso are in with a shot.
In percentage terms I think it is about 3-5% change in Jewish vote for Labour from Jewish leader Ed Miliband to Corbyn.
On that bombshell I'll leave everyone to state how Labour are racist and evil and the Conservatives are beyond reproach and go about my day...
The party was doing a whole lot better in places like Barnet until Jezza came on the scene
I don't know why Jez is chucking these voters away, but I think it makes Labour's appeal much narrower. Not because they have lost a few hundred thousand Jewish voters, I don't think the numbers make a difference, no, I think Labour will have lost its conscience if it continues on this path. That's what the Jewish movement gives Labour and they are throwing it away.
Of course, that might not be a bad thing. And even if it is, to be cynical about politics, it may be a price worth paying: lose a few hot-heads, some of whom no doubt are antisemitic by any definition, in order to put this to bed.
There are of course those in the Conservative Party who like to use the N-word (Nazi) in the same way, except there it is to criticise Germany or the EU, so that's all right then.
So one of the reasons why those who do not want Israel to exist are so keen to describe it as a Nazi or Nazi-like state is because that makes it so much easier to justify its destruction, its removal from the world scene. After all, who wouldn’t want to stop another Nazi state arising? Ditto with the comparisons with apartheid South Africa.
So the use of Nazi comparisons is not just people getting overheated or being anti-semitic or even being enthusiastically pro-Palestinian. It is a necessary part of an agenda which has as its logical end point the extermination of the state of Israel. Such language is not necessary (and arguably deeply unhelpful) if your aim is to get Israel to change its policies for the better. But it is absolutely essential if you want Israel to disappear and be replaced by a Palestinian state from Jordan to the sea, which is the explicit aim of, for instance, Hamas.
Corbyn’s view of Israel and the language he uses is, whether he realises it or not, exterminatory in its aims and consequences. If he really believes what he says, then he should be arguing that Israel has no right to exist. It is certainly what some of his supporters believe and what many of his Palestinian associates believe. The threat to Jewry if Britain is led by such a man is the risk that it becomes the first Western country to call for Israel no longer to exist. And then what? What happens to the Jews living there, born there?
And that is why those two examples in the IHRA code which Labour does not want to have matter. Two of them are about criticising Israel in terms not used about other countries and using Nazi terminology. There are plenty of countries which are far worse in terms of policies, treatment of minorities etc than Israel - Burma or Saudi Arabia for instance or even Iran. And yet there is no great campaign to boycott them or call them Nazi-like or say that they should be wiped from the face of the earth. There is clearly a double standard being applied to Jews and Israel.
And this is no accident. If you want to make it easy - even right - to remove a people or a country you first dehumanise them and make them out to be uniquely evil. Those who want to do this to Israel and Jews have learnt the lesson well from the Nazi playbook.
Talking to a Jezzarite last night, he was blaming it all on the right wing media.
"But you're the ones keeping it going," I said. "Why didn't you just accept the International definition of anti-Semitism?"
"I don't know," he admitted, and shook his head.
To me, it's a case of hypocrisy. Labour are generally anti-racist, but some of them have a blind spot when it comes Israel and Jewish people. The defence of what-aboutery misses the point.
- the Labour Party won't vote even for a deal they love
- the ERG won't vote for deals which involve concessions to Brussels
Which pretty much eliminates every possibility.
So we'll crash out. Because of lack of preparation (and the precarious state of the UK economy), Project Fear will be vaguely accurate.
The recession will be blamed on the government either not being pro-EU enough or being too anti-EU.
Jeremy Corbyn will become PM.
We'll look back fondly on the late 1970s as a time of sensible government.
I also think we've got as far as we can with the debate. We all agree on the IHLM definitions, we disagree on examples of exactly where the borderline is on criticism of Israel, and anyone not deeply involved will concede that there's a grey area in what's legitimate. If people want a private dialogue on that, fine.
But neither side is going to simply concede the argument (intellectuals on both sides can't bear to back down however much more pragmatic colleagues would like them to), and I think Corbyn needs to move on and address the other issues which preoccupy most voters far more. The complaints about the couple of MPs should be dropped (whether they swore or not, we need to get over it), as should the complaint about Willsman, who lost his temper and apologised. I don't personally think that most voters think that Corbyn is anti-semitic (or pro-Ku Klux Klan, ffs), but people can make up their own minds. The impression that we're not interested in the issues of the day is far more damaging.
On a less contentious question - now that realclearpolitics is semmingly malware-infected, what's the best site to look at US polling?
My own father, an Irish immigrant, was a Labour voter, partly because of his wartime experiences, partly his own views (he was friends with one of the leading lights behind Amnesty International) and partly because he disliked the Tory approach to Northern Ireland. He loathed anti-semitism having seen its consequences close up - from his time in Germany before the war and from working as a doctor in Belsen after its liberation.
The Labour party he supported was a world away from the despicable mess it is now - a mixture of Respect, the SWP and the BNP. In its language, its intolerance, its admiration of strongmen leaders around the world, its cult-like belief in its leader, its paranoia about conspiracies against it, it is, frankly, more like the fascists it routinely criticises than the liberal anti-racist party it used to be.
A line in Sir Edric's Kingdom:
"... Honestly, Edric. That’s the sort of casual racism I’d expect from an elf.”
I have now reversed my thinking on this matter and now believe it to be a case of 'the worse the better' for JC. One of his few political virtues is his unalloyed status as an outsider. When he looks beset on all sides that burnishes his outsider credentials and heightens the Jonestown grade intensity of the Momentum experience.
Great slogan - if you consider the few to be rich Tory bankers. But Labour has sought to be a colalition of minorities. Those smaller groups who singly don't have much of a voice, but are stronger under the Labour umbrella. "There is power in a union."
But under Corbyn they've broken that contract. It's now impossible to see that slogan and not read "For the many, not the Jew".
In 2017 63% of Jewish voters voted Tory, well above the 42% who voted Tory nationally and just 26% voted Labour
http://www.brin.ac.uk/2017/religious-affiliation-and-party-choice-at-the-2017-general-election/
There's a lot I could say about this but I want to confine myself to a few personal comments (not least because I want to go swimming). The short version is that I agree with most of what you write here.
Those who have time for the longer version, see below.....
"the purge would need to begin immediately. There could be no statute of limitations."
The longer this goes on, the more I'm coming to that conclusion. They do have something to hide, and the natural reaction of any large organisation is to shelter the bad eggs so as to avoid reputational damage. The Catholic Church with the paedophile priests, the Aid Agencies with the sex claims for instance.
It's a short-sighted, knee-jerk reaction.
I fear Sean (no pun intended) your blue petticoat is showing.
Firstly, it is now bordering on anti-semitism to have exaggerated Labour's (minute - no larger than society at
large) problem with anti-semitism and compare it with the Nazis (thereby trasducing the horror of those who actually went through the Holocaust), and those using it as a political weapon will be judged dreadfully by history.
The series of examples you gave were either minor activists or councillors who were instantly suspended as soon as any dodgy comments to light, people for whom there is no evidence they are even in the Labour Party (the infamous facebook message), or hover around extremely contentious issues such the distinction between criticism of Israel and antisemitism.
Many of these things happened before Corbyn was even leader. No party can be expected to be responsible for the handful of nutters you'll find amongst any organisation whose membership runs into the hundreds of thousands, it can only be expected to deal with them if bad behaviour comes to light.
Which it has, in the most egregious of the above cases.
What has to be resisted tooth and nail are any attempts to smother criticism of Israel, when every year its policies and behaviour are becoming more and more racist, violent and extreme - which is what the ridiculously overblown and co-ordinated attacks from those strange and fervently pro-Israel vanguards of the discredited Westminster bubble - right-wing pro-war Labour MPs, the right-wing media, self-appointed hard-right Jewish groups (that do not in any way represent all jews) - amount to. All of the supposed contentious points in the IHRA definition and 99% of the controversial statements that are supposed to have constituted examples of anti-semitism relate to Israel.
The vast majority of the UK population either have a negative opinion or none at all about Israel, and it seems the tiny proportion who have a positive view are concentrated in our dreadfully discredited establishment media and political classes. Why? Obviously Israel plays a key part in ensuring that the regional interests of our country's very wealthy elite are kept intact, and also the subservience of our country's establishment to the US military industrial complex and its needs (for whom Israel is also seen as a key attack dog in the area).
But also I think the vile right wing establishment and their pathetic wannabes in this country see a place built on racial supremacy, extreme nationalism and violent suppression of perceived untermensch and see a model of a society they'd really love to be able to emulate.
By contrast only 37% see Saudi Arabia as an ally and 39% as an enemy and just 26% see Iran as an ally and 48% as an enemy
https://yougov.co.uk/news/2016/01/10/saudi-arabia-relations-and-right/?
When it comes to blind spots, you should take a look in the mirror..
A CETA FTA would of course make it through the Commons - shame May is not prepared to negotiate one.
Corbyn's Labour is a great home for you.
It is curious how these platform malfunctions where Jeremy unaccountably finds himself next to all sorts of horrible people whose views he apparently does not share never happen with people who are pro-Israeli or anti-Assad or anti-Putin, for instance.
You have a curious blind eye about your leader, Nick, I’m afraid. You believe what you want to believe and ignore all facts to the contrary. It is very common for people to do this. It is why fraudsters get away with it for so long. It is why evil people in politics can get away with it.
Maybe your analysis of what should happen is right - Labour will ignore this and talk about of stuff of more interest to most voters. And it may well be electorally successful. But IMO taking good policies from evil people - and I think this issue has shown there is something close to evil at the heart of the Labour leadership - is a Faustian pact which will harm those who sign up to it. Having Corbyn as PM pf this country will cause it great moral harm. Count me out. I will only listen to Labour again when it finds its moral compass again.
Greatest. Chancellor. Ever.....
Have a great day all.
Jeremy Corbyn Platform Malfunction: a Neo-Nazi pro-KKK guy gets up to speak.....
However the Tories will be trounced at next May's local elections as a result with many Leaver Tories staying home or voting for UKIP.
May will then be likely replaced by an anti Chequers Deal Tory before the next general election, probably Boris, unless by some miracle she gets a FTA with the EU by December 2020 when the transition period is due to end, as without holding the 2017 Tory coalition and winning back voters from UKIP there is no way the Tories can beat Corbyn Labour.
Of course a Corbyn Labour government would be ideal to revive the Tories under a hard Brexit leader if a pro Chequers Deal candidate lost to Corbyn.
Indeed arguably 2022 like 1992 would be a good election for the Tories to lose. Heseltine could have beaten Kinnock in 1997, as Corbyn may be beatable in 2027, by contrast after winning in 1992 the Tories lost to Blair in 1997 by a landslide and it was 13 years before the Tories got back to power in 2010 and 18 years before they won another majority in 2015
My own Alma Mater was Hackney Downs Grammar School (formerly the Grocers Company.) We didn't have a Jeremy Bentham but we did nurture Harold Pinter and Michael Caine. (Not a lot of people know that.)
When I started there in 1960 it had a policy of admitting 50% Jews, 50% Gentiles. For the most part, we neither knew nor cared who was Jewish and who was not. Anti-semitism was non-existent. It just wouldn't have been tolerated.
Due I think to their work ethic and family values, the Jewish boys tended to cluster more in the Alpha streams. In my class of 32, there were just 6 gentiles. As a result most of my closest friends were Jewish, without me particularly seeking them out or being strongly aware if it.
We weren't much into politics but it was nevertheless obvious that as a group the Jewish boys tended to be leftish and it was easy to see why this should be so. The impression that 'Jews tend to be Labour' has endured with me throughout my life.
And now I am being asked to question it. Oi vey.
Well, I'm not sure. I mistrust social media. The Jews are a very heterogeneous group. You wouldn't mistake my bacon-eating buddies from Hackney Downs with the Hasidic or Ashkenazy Jews, who my mates regularly ridiculed (Kosher Cowboys being one the more repeatable terms of derision.) Very many modern, civilized, educated Jews are staunch Conservatives. Why shouldn't they be? Many of the characteristics of happy, successful Jewish families are entirely consistent with Conservative values. So what's not to like?
Of course it would be very helpful for the Conservative Party if Labour could be tarred with the brush of anti-semitism. Thinks of the votes, my boy! It wouldn't just dissuade a few undecideds, it would even rob Labour of the votes of people like me for whom anti-Semitism and other forms of racism are anathema. I'll need some persuading however that it is endemic. All Parties have their hotheads, airheads and assholes and the current LP certainly has its share.....but an Anti-Semitic Party?
Let's not confuse anti-Semitism with anti-Israel. The former is unacceptable, the latter merely unwise. And anti-Netanyahu? Even I would maybe go along with that. Anti-Trump? Count me in.
Seems to me the Labour Party has to make it clear just exactly where it stands. It is an indictment of the current leadership that one should even feel the need to ask the question. It matters though, very much. There is a real possibility that the Conservative Party will crash and burn in a post-Brexit inferno. A Labour Government filling the political void is a probable consequence.
I don't want an Anti-Semitic Government. That would be worse than an Anti-EU one, which is saying something. Labour ought to make it clear that offers neither.
Over to you, Jeremy.
Would they be happy with a fire escape that went 80% of the way out, I wonder?
I agree with all of that.
I'll check back tonite for any responses but if anyone wants to write to me direct on this subject feel free to use my email: arklebar@gmail.com
Have a good day everyone.
I went to a school with a significant proportion of Jewish boys. The only time it was really noticed was when A Level Hebrew clashed with A Level Zoology and along with the ten or so of us comparing and contrasting various unlikely pairs of animals and the like was someone sitting in the corner with his skull-cap on doing something clearly entirely different.
I was friendly with some Jewish boys, less so with others, but that applied to any grouping you cared to name.
1 - Labour's recent fall in Jewish votes is quite minor ... they lost it some time ago. Perhaps this correlates with the rise of campaigns, which have been driven in part by certain Far Left controlled Trades Unions. PCS had a lot of controversy, for example.
2 - There seems to be a further loss now, driven by the current debacle, and Corbyn's failure to address it except by circumlocution.
3 - There may be something about the LD Jewish vote transferring to the Tories, given the LD Cheshire Cat performance over the last few years.
From the BES, this page:
http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/data/#.W2VzotJKjSF
and a BRIN article.
2005: Lab 26.9% Tory 47.4% LD: 16.8
2010: Lab 20% Tory 44.1% LD: 22.6
2017: Lab 26% Tory 63%
I would need to create some reports to get the 2015 details. The only other long term data I have seen is Jewish Chronicle polls, and I assume Yougov have some that they could analyse (calling Anthony Wells...).
Carolyn Harris: Corbyn backs under fire MP in gay slur row
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-politics-45055491
That means Corbyn's team on equalities now includes one member who has previously been disciplined for calling for ethnic cleansing, and another who faces legal action for alleged assault and homophobic bullying. That's even before we get started on Rhoda Grant's links to a 'gay cure' charity.
The reason this has the potential to be more damaging is because although the anti-Semitism is not well received by sensible people, it's ignored by the cult (as we can see from the Skawkbox acolyte on this thread) and a very large number of the people who take it derisively won't be voting Labour anyway.
However if its clients among the liberal elites and the gay rights lobby conclude Labour is homophobic, all bets on number of seats at the next election are off. That's where Labour's support under Corbyn has been rock solid and their loss would be disastrous.
I expect you now would find far more Rabbis who vote Tory than Church of England Vicars certainly
According to a report by the Institute for Jewish Policy Research, the voting intentions in 1995 were: Tory 29%, Labour 57%.
http://www.jpr.org.uk/documents/Social and political attitudes of British Jews: Some key findings of the JPR survey.pdf
So, within approximations, I say that the Labour loss of Jewish vote was substantially 10-20 years ago rather than 5-10.
The leavers have shown how totally incompetent they are and as for Boris, the least said the better
About N. Ireland the less said the better, although do I detect a chink of light which might lead to a United Ireland?
And I think the assault thing is internal disciplinary action not legal action.
Apart from that...
Wales voted Leave just like England
It is quite clear that the major elements of the Labour party dislike Zionism, but this is nothing new - the Webbs, Ramsay/Malcolm Macdonald and Ernest Bevin are earlier examples. The current Labour leadership is clearly reluctant to follow the Zionist line, hence the unwillingness to implement the examples in the IHRA guideline in full. They are perfectly entitled to do this if they so wish, and I doubt whether it would do them any electoral harm.
The man/woman in the street doesn't give a damn, and even if she/he is paying any attention at all to the issue, is more than likely just to take a dislike to those who are whining. Mr Willsman's outburst at the NEC meeting is an example of this attitude, and I suspect many share that view, but are sufficiently PC-savvy not to express it in public. If anything, the longer this issue continues to dominate the headlines, the more antisemitism is re-inforced.
On that note, I wonder whether it might be desirable for PB to stop publishing so many thread headers on this topic. It matters little to the UK, compared to the enormous impact of Brexit (or more likely BINO).
Barnier has made clear we only get a post Brexit transition deal if we effectively stay in the single market and customs union in all but name to deal with the Irish border issue which is what the Chequers Deal moved towards and Juncker has made clear it took Canada 7 years to get a FTA with the EU and the EU would take the same approach with the UK.
The reason more people talk about Israel than Saudi Arabia and Burma despite their worse human rights record is because we have much stronger ties to Israel. I myself have literally dozens of family members currently living there. Fortunately they are far more open to robust debate than seems to be the case with the Labour Party.
Labour are a disaster especially on the NHS and education in Wales. I waited 63 months for a bi lateral hernia operation and have serious issues with my knee and have been referred to an orthopaedic surgeon but told not to expect an appointment for six months, so just keep taking pain killers.
Regarding CETA. Because of its scope, it's a mixed agreement, which requires unanimous agreement at the national level, so it's currently provisional only. The Italians are threatening to veto it, due to concerns about PDO and PGI protections.
Wow!!!!
For them these negotiations are an ideological project to keep the EU together and dissuade other nations from following our lead and leaving the EU