Since Number 10 won't - perhaps Mr Herdson (or someone else) could explain why the amendments 'kill Chequers' - No.10 reckon they don't.....
May has claimed someone will set out a rationale... I would not have gone through all the work I did to ensure that we reached that agreement only to see it changed in some way through these bills. They do not change that Chequers agreement. And the minister from the despatch box later today will be making that clear... ... which I look forward to hearing.
Since Number 10 won't - perhaps Mr Herdson (or someone else) could explain why the amendments 'kill Chequers' - No.10 reckon they don't.....
May has claimed someone will set out a rationale... I would not have gone through all the work I did to ensure that we reached that agreement only to see it changed in some way through these bills. They do not change that Chequers agreement. And the minister from the despatch box later today will be making that clear... ... which I look forward to hearing.
Chequers means Chequers (and it was only a short-term fix anyway).
I'm not fond of throwing around pejorative terms that are exaggerations, and that's well over the top. When ardent Leave types call hard Remainers 'traitors', people, understandably, get quite upset about it. This sort of thing isn't going to calm down the bitter division, but, rather, add a few more drops into the poisonous miasma floating this way and that between the trenches.
And yes, I know terms like 'Turnip Taliban' have been used for comic effect in the past. Right now we have accusations of racism and treachery being thrown around, so it's a different situation.
Miss Vance, saw that on Twitter, and must agree with Mr. Borough's assessment. It's too late (although it may not have made a difference in any event).
I'm not fond of throwing around pejorative terms that are exaggerations, and that's well over the top. When ardent Leave types call hard Remainers 'traitors', people, understandably, get quite upset about it. This sort of thing isn't going to calm down the bitter division, but, rather, add a few more drops into the poisonous miasma floating this way and that between the trenches.
And yes, I know terms like 'Turnip Taliban' have been used for comic effect in the past. Right now we have accusations of racism and treachery being thrown around, so it's a different situation.
They are single minded, wilfully destructive and have no end game other than destroying the established system and imposing their wilfully narrow view of the truth. That sounds like Taliban to me. The view from your bedroom may be narrower.
Perhaps the elephant in the room is that May's customs partnership is only a meant to be a way to disguise large ongoing cash payments to the EU based on a "formula".
The "Brexit Taliban" being the people that were on the winning side of the referendum of course...
Appropriate epithet as the original Taliban were a group of undesirable extremists who claimed support of the people, cut themselves off from the rest of the world and fucked their country up
I'm not fond of throwing around pejorative terms that are exaggerations, and that's well over the top. When ardent Leave types call hard Remainers 'traitors', people, understandably, get quite upset about it. This sort of thing isn't going to calm down the bitter division, but, rather, add a few more drops into the poisonous miasma floating this way and that between the trenches.
And yes, I know terms like 'Turnip Taliban' have been used for comic effect in the past. Right now we have accusations of racism and treachery being thrown around, so it's a different situation.
They are single minded, wilfully destructive and have no end game other than destroying the established system and imposing their wilfully narrow view of the truth. That sounds like Taliban to me. The view from your bedroom may be narrower.
Additionally, I doubt most Taliban members have ever changed a nappy
The "Brexit Taliban" being the people that were on the winning side of the referendum of course...
Appropriate epithet as the original Taliban were a group of undesirable extremists who claimed support of the people, cut themselves off from the rest of the world and fucked their country up
Perhaps the elephant in the room is that May's customs partnership is only a meant to be a way to disguise large ongoing cash payments to the EU based on a "formula".
But why does this 'trash Chequers' - or is that just a lazy soundbite for its various opponents?
People can use what terms they wish. If said terms seem over the top to me, I'm quite content to make that observation. It'd be better if we considered ideas and means, rather than throwing insulting terms, but that's just my view.
Perhaps the elephant in the room is that May's customs partnership is only a meant to be a way to disguise large ongoing cash payments to the EU based on a "formula".
But why does this 'trash Chequers' - or is that just a lazy soundbite for its various opponents?
It only trashes Chequers if Chequers is taken at face value.
If there is to be a 3-way referendum (as I've hoped but not dared to believe for a while now) I'd have thought that EEA membership should be an option - this represents 'soft Brexit' better than anything else on the table and certainly Chequers looks like a hard Brexit from where I'm sitting, albeit with a dollop of fudge on.
I don't know how much more of this chaotic to and fro we can take in the meantime though.
Perhaps the elephant in the room is that May's customs partnership is only a meant to be a way to disguise large ongoing cash payments to the EU based on a "formula".
But why does this 'trash Chequers' - or is that just a lazy soundbite for its various opponents?
Yes, I’d like this explained as well, as the whole process is confusing me at this stage.
I think Theresa knows the game is up. She's now transferring ownership of Brexit to Rees-Mogg so if it's a catastrophe he'll be blamed and history will be a little kinder to her. It makes a grim kind of sense.
One should not underestimate the value of optimism.
I have lost track of the number of times May has been written off as completely useless...yet here she still is, wading grimly on through a mess largely (Brexit - she owns GE17) not of her making.....
I doubt it. An erg is the energy required to accelerate 1 gram at 1 cms^2 or about the same energy as a housefly uses to stretch its legs.
It is also the same amount of energy expended by certain "Leave" politicians to examine the feasibility of their preferred Brexit, thus the name of the group
One should not underestimate the value of optimism.
I have lost track of the number of times May has been written off as completely useless...yet here she still is, wading grimly on through a mess largely not of her making.....
So completely useless we have full employment in this Country for this first time in my 50 years
Does the EU collecting "our dues" only make sense if we had a higher rate? It would then stop customs arbitrage where an EU firm imported and then immediately exported to us. Is this likely? An alternative would be requiring reporting within the UK and prosecuting blatant rule-breakers.
Does the EU collecting "our dues" only make sense if we had a higher rate? It would then stop customs arbitrage where an EU firm imported and then immediately exported to us. Is this likely? An alternative would be requiring reporting within the UK and prosecuting blatant rule-breakers.
To think of the abuse I used to get when I said Mrs May wasn’t very good back in 2016/early 2017.
#IAmAVisionary
I don't know what you mean. She was the blessed Dave's last and most enduring gift to the nation, before swanning off to the shepherd hut to work on those memoirs.
As I have said before, thank God Dave was rather good at being PM. Look where his country and party are now, and think what trouble we would be in if he'd been a bit shit at it.
I think Theresa knows the game is up. She's now transferring ownership of Brexit to Rees-Mogg so if it's a catastrophe he'll be blamed and history will be a little kinder to her. It makes a grim kind of sense.
There could be a lot of truth in that. Plunging polls, mass resignations from the activists and fury in vote leaving constituencies over the weekend must have had an effect
The "Brexit Taliban" being the people that were on the winning side of the referendum of course...
The same liars who said that "of course we'll stay in the Single Market" and "of course we can stay in the EEA - what's wrong with being like Norway?" and "the EU will give us everything we want - their car manufacturers need us, don'cha know?"
One should not underestimate the value of optimism.
I have lost track of the number of times May has been written off as completely useless...yet here she still is, wading grimly on through a mess largely not of her making.....
So completely useless we have full employment in this Country for this first time in my 50 years
Full employment is what we had from 1945 - late 1960s when the jobless figures were well under 500,000 in most years.Moreover , when account is taken of the many 'adjustments' to the figures ,unemployment today remains well above mid-1970s levels - indeed on a like for like basis we are probably still looking at circa 2 million unemployed.
Perhaps the elephant in the room is that May's customs partnership is only a meant to be a way to disguise large ongoing cash payments to the EU based on a "formula".
But why does this 'trash Chequers' - or is that just a lazy soundbite for its various opponents?
Yes, I’d like this explained as well, as the whole process is confusing me at this stage.
Does the EU collecting "our dues" only make sense if we had a higher rate? It would then stop customs arbitrage where an EU firm imported and then immediately exported to us. Is this likely? An alternative would be requiring reporting within the UK and prosecuting blatant rule-breakers.
Or we could just stay in.
Wish we could - and not tear us apart. Now realised I didn't know enough to even ask a sensible question. More research required...
I'm not sure if the "broad public" are turning on May. Perhaps the exposure of the inherent difficulties and the fractious but almost equally balanced factions in the HOC mean that her compromise might make it through even with a few bullet holes and dents in it.
So Cabinet government was restored around this agreement last weekend. But now it is changed. Does that mean the Cabinet are bound, or not bound, to support these amendments? Sorry if there is an obvious answer to this.
One should not underestimate the value of optimism.
I have lost track of the number of times May has been written off as completely useless...yet here she still is, wading grimly on through a mess largely (Brexit - she owns GE17) not of her making.....
And still admirably, and consistently, completely useless.
Perhaps the elephant in the room is that May's customs partnership is only a meant to be a way to disguise large ongoing cash payments to the EU based on a "formula".
But why does this 'trash Chequers' - or is that just a lazy soundbite for its various opponents?
Yes, I’d like this explained as well, as the whole process is confusing me at this stage.
I have lost track of the number of times May has been written off as completely useless...yet here she still is, wading grimly on through a mess largely (Brexit - she owns GE17) not of her making.....
As I keep saying The Good Ship May sails on serenely...
Off thread - having had all the children it's sensible to have, I've just been on the phone to the Marie Stopes to make an appointment for a vasectomy. In doing so, I was asked five equality and diversity questions: ethnicity, religious belief, whether I have a disability, sexualorientation, and gender identity. I would suggest that two of those questions are somewhat superfluous, given the nature of the operation.
I have lost track of the number of times May has been written off as completely useless...yet here she still is, wading grimly on through a mess largely (Brexit - she owns GE17) not of her making.....
As I keep saying The Good Ship May sails on serenely...
I doubt she is serene. More like on the edge of a nervous breakdown with all this madness around her.
Off thread - having had all the children it's sensible to have, I've just been on the phone to the Marie Stopes to make an appointment for a vasectomy. In doing so, I was asked five equality and diversity questions: ethnicity, religious belief, whether I have a disability, sexualorientation, and gender identity. I would suggest that two of those questions are somewhat superfluous, given the nature of the operation.
I would suggest that five of them are superfluous given the nature of the operation.
Taliban comparison is bonkers. JRM is definitely out there but he isn't going to kill anyone.
On the amendments, not sure what's going on, but not particularly convinced this is actually such a big news story. Whatever deal is done will go through Parliament and presumably that can override these amendments if need be?
OT. Funny how people are still taking Trump seriously. It's pretty obvious most of the time he's just having fun.
It occurred to me when they put on that show for him at Blenheim Palace that it was a scene stolen from 'Being There' where the sycophants were made to look foolish by taking Chance seriously.
But looking back everyone including Trump could see the absurdity of the scene and thanks to his TV experience he was just about able to carry it off without cracking up.
In fact the only one who didn't get the joke was the Queen who looked like she'd been used in a sitcom without being told
I have lost track of the number of times May has been written off as completely useless...yet here she still is, wading grimly on through a mess largely (Brexit - she owns GE17) not of her making.....
As I keep saying The Good Ship May sails on serenely...
I doubt she is serene. More like on the edge of a nervous breakdown with all this madness around her.
She seems to have got off the fence and moved to ERG
I believe she knows Chequers would run into trouble with the EU and is preparing to walk out when they do, blaming them for the failure, and announcing hard Brexit contingency planning.
In these circumstances I believe remain becomes impossible
In accepting the amendments today, May has effectively killed her own Chequers Deal (which cost her two cabinet ministers and several more junior government members), and made No Deal *far* more likely.
The question has to be why. Either she doesn't understand the consequences of what she's done, or she has actively chosen to bin her own compromise in favour of something else - but what?
If she does understand what she's doing then the only rational explanation is that she expected to lose her Chequers Plan anyway and acted early in order to forestall further opposition and, presumably, resignations. But it's come at one hell of a cost. Apart from anything else, she's now risking No Confidence letters from the left of the Party - which if they go in before the Mogglodites withdraw theirs could prompt a No Confidence vote.
Top post. Will be interesting to read her autobiography... much of her decision-making or strategy seems to make less sense in retrospect! Whatever rational purpose might eventually be discerned in one act, she negates by her next.
(Incidentally, given how mindboggling the dance of government and parliament is in this negotiation, how would those rare people who proposed that somehow parliament, rather than government, should have run the negotiation think it would have worked in practice?)
Soubry in action in House. 3 people in prison for death threats to her alone.
She's an excellent communicator. She's been driven a bit mad by Brexit though.
Alternatively, politics has been made mad by Brexit and she's one of the few sane ones on either side of the house prepared to stand up and point out that both parties are living in a fantasyland dreamt up by their own hardliners.
1. Brexit has hit a brick wall which means we stay in the EU or crash out; there's no middle way now.
2. Trump has backed Putin over his own intelligence services.
In peace time it doesn't get much bigger really.
On the domestic front, what May has done today has ensured that however ambivalent Corbyn is over Brexit, the 2017 Labour voting alliance will hold together. He must be loving this.
Comments
With you own beige one....
https://twitter.com/peston/status/1018883748400713728?s=21
I would not have gone through all the work I did to ensure that we reached that agreement only to see it changed in some way through these bills. They do not change that Chequers agreement. And the minister from the despatch box later today will be making that clear...
... which I look forward to hearing.
https://twitter.com/heidiallen75/status/1018885211269058560
Taliban?
I'm not fond of throwing around pejorative terms that are exaggerations, and that's well over the top. When ardent Leave types call hard Remainers 'traitors', people, understandably, get quite upset about it. This sort of thing isn't going to calm down the bitter division, but, rather, add a few more drops into the poisonous miasma floating this way and that between the trenches.
And yes, I know terms like 'Turnip Taliban' have been used for comic effect in the past. Right now we have accusations of racism and treachery being thrown around, so it's a different situation.
Bring on Jezza!
1) May is insane
2) May is so exhausted that she no longer gives a fuck about anything
3) May has made another huge mistake and will figure out at her leisure
4) The EU will be so amazed by May's breathtaking display of political masochism she'll be made empress of Europe
People thought:
'The UK will collect EU duties, but
The EU will NOT collect UK duties'
That's what people thought?
She gets an agreement through the cabinet , then a week later trashes it.
What a pitiful leader of her party and this country.
#IAmAVisionary
Time for that choice to be put back to the people?
Sees the Brexit loons are trying to wreck the country.
Goes back to reading about asteroid mining.
People can use what terms they wish. If said terms seem over the top to me, I'm quite content to make that observation. It'd be better if we considered ideas and means, rather than throwing insulting terms, but that's just my view.
For balance, I'd prefer it if Mcdonnell and Corbyn were heading into battle with them than May and Olly fucking Robbins.
It is IMPERATIVE that the EU member states see the whites of NO DEAL's eyes.
I don't know how much more of this chaotic to and fro we can take in the meantime though.
https://twitter.com/JoeMurphyLondon/status/1018892051713347584
He surely can't have been comparing them to a fundamentalist Islamic army? He's not becoming one of the Re-mujahideen?
It is also the same amount of energy expended by certain "Leave" politicians to examine the feasibility of their preferred Brexit, thus the name of the group
Long Live Corbyn! (and Abbott and McDonnell and Long Bailey and Rayner and Watson)
As I have said before, thank God Dave was rather good at being PM. Look where his country and party are now, and think what trouble we would be in if he'd been a bit shit at it.
More than Cameron and Osborne did before the referendum...
Last week Soubry, Morgan and Adonis were singing her praises, this week JRM and co are running the show.
The truth is somewhat more devilishly complicated than that but these extremes are an example of how out of control she is of the message and events.
I personally think she's had it. The big question is whether the Tories can stay intact.
I look forward to HMG bowing to logic and adopting Labour party policy.
But now it is changed.
Does that mean the Cabinet are bound, or not bound, to support these amendments?
Sorry if there is an obvious answer to this.
Wow!
Uncle Remus.
Brer Rabbit and the tar baby.
Brexit.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hiMw-8Ttu10
https://twitter.com/leicesterliz/status/1018875187427717120
On the amendments, not sure what's going on, but not particularly convinced this is actually such a big news story. Whatever deal is done will go through Parliament and presumably that can override these amendments if need be?
It occurred to me when they put on that show for him at Blenheim Palace that it was a scene stolen from 'Being There' where the sycophants were made to look foolish by taking Chance seriously.
But looking back everyone including Trump could see the absurdity of the scene and thanks to his TV experience he was just about able to carry it off without cracking up.
In fact the only one who didn't get the joke was the Queen who looked like she'd been used in a sitcom without being told
I believe she knows Chequers would run into trouble with the EU and is preparing to walk out when they do, blaming them for the failure, and announcing hard Brexit contingency planning.
In these circumstances I believe remain becomes impossible
(Incidentally, given how mindboggling the dance of government and parliament is in this negotiation, how would those rare people who proposed that somehow parliament, rather than government, should have run the negotiation think it would have worked in practice?)
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/1018904572671221762
1. Brexit has hit a brick wall which means we stay in the EU or crash out; there's no middle way now.
2. Trump has backed Putin over his own intelligence services.
In peace time it doesn't get much bigger really.
On the domestic front, what May has done today has ensured that however ambivalent Corbyn is over Brexit, the 2017 Labour voting alliance will hold together. He must be loving this.