Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again. It's not like if may wins, or someone who backs the deal, that Mogg and co will suddenly be supportive of it.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
There is no middle way. That is the whole problem. We stay a satrapy of the EU to protect our economy at the price of meaningful independence, or we go for freedom whatever the cost.
Hence the need for a split. There is not the support for freedom no matter the cost, so if that is what enough tory mps want they need to win the fight or leave.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
The point is the ultras on either side prevent anything from happening. The pretence that all of them can be made happy has led to the incompetent dithering and can kicking we have seen.
Until they tories fight this out they cannot move on. Whether enough is left to move on after the fight remains to be seen.
A leadership election will bridge a lot of the gap. If someone like Javid wins then he'll get the support of all groups except the remainer ultras, only around half of those will back whatever vision of brexit he has. The rest won't be happy unless they've undone the public vote, I wouldn't mind dumping them and running a minority.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I think it's an absolute certainty that they'll split. They're not only facing in different directions but pulling strongly in different directions.
In which case Labour will split soon after, it is straining the elastic to breaking point keeping Umunna and Kendall and Corbyn and McDonnell in the same party.
At least the majority of the Cabinet has not yet resigned unlike the majority of Corbyn's formet Shadow Cabinet
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
The point is the ultras on either side prevent anything from happening. The pretence that all of them can be made happy has led to the incompetent dithering and can kicking we have seen.
Until they tories fight this out they cannot move on. Whether enough is left to move on after the fight remains to be seen.
A leadership election will bridge a lot of the gap. If someone like Javid wins then he'll get the support of all groups except the remainer ultras, only around half of those will back whatever vision of brexit he has. The rest won't be happy unless they've undone the public vote, I wouldn't mind dumping them and running a minority.
There really isn’t time to have a leadership election. The clock is ticking, and I doubt the EU will change their demands based on who is in No 10.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again. It's not like if may wins, or someone who backs the deal, that Mogg and co will suddenly be supportive of it.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
There is no middle way. That is the whole problem. We stay a satrapy of the EU to protect our economy at the price of meaningful independence, or we go for freedom whatever the cost.
No, no ,no we're, going to have or cake and eat it. The EU will be desperate to do a deal with us.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
The point is the ultras on either side prevent anything from happening. The pretence that all of them can be made happy has led to the incompetent dithering and can kicking we have seen.
Until they tories fight this out they cannot move on. Whether enough is left to move on after the fight remains to be seen.
A leadership election will bridge a lot of the gap. If someone like Javid wins then he'll get the support of all groups except the remainer ultras, only around half of those will back whatever vision of brexit he has. The rest won't be happy unless they've undone the public vote, I wouldn't mind dumping them and running a minority.
Javid backed May's deal which leaver ultras say is a no go. How does he get their support?
No. Corbyn is a hypocrite given his continual trouble with his MPs, but May is toast and no group in the tories looks strong enough to beat the others outright. An attempt to pretend they are one happy family is the farce we've been subjected to for a year and more. If two leaver ultras are in the final the ultra remainers need to go, if a non ultra leaver gets through and wins the ultra leavers need to go, since there's no chance they play nice if they lose.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
The point is the ultras on either side prevent anything from happening. The pretence that all of them can be made happy has led to the incompetent dithering and can kicking we have seen.
Until they tories fight this out they cannot move on. Whether enough is left to move on after the fight remains to be seen.
A leadership election will bridge a lot of the gap. If someone like Javid wins then he'll get the support of all groups except the remainer ultras, only around half of those will back whatever vision of brexit he has. The rest won't be happy unless they've undone the public vote, I wouldn't mind dumping them and running a minority.
There really isn’t time to have a leadership election. The clock is ticking, and I doubt the EU will change their demands based on who is in No 10.
We need to have a bloodletting, it's the only way for the party to move on. Its been far too long since we all had a massive and open fight over the soul/heart of the party. Right now there's too much sniping and bad blood for a unity candidate and coronation, no one will agree on the candidate.
What I really fail to grasp is how he was appointed in the first place. The task was so far beyond his, admittedly modest, skill set it wasn't even funny. Did May really want the negotiation to be executed poorly?
In which case Labour will split soon after, it is straining the elastic to breaking point keeping Umunna and Kendall and Corbyn and McDonnell in the same party.
At least the majority of the Cabinet has not yet resigned unlike the majority of Corbyn's formet Shadow Cabinet
You keep making the mistake of thinking that I care anything about the Labour Party. I don't... I'm a Liberal Democrat - but I get the impression that we non-Conservatives are all the same to you.
David Davis once replied personally to an email I sent him, although the tone of it was a bit dismissive and rude. So I've never been a big fan of his.
Apparently he went to my Nan's WI meeting years ago and charmed the old dear's a treat.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
The point is the ultras on either side prevent anything from happening. The pretence that all of them can be made happy has led to the incompetent dithering and can kicking we have seen.
Until they tories fight this out they cannot move on. Whether enough is left to move on after the fight remains to be seen.
A leadership election will bridge a lot of the gap. If someone like Javid wins then he'll get the support of all groups except the remainer ultras, only around half of those will back whatever vision of brexit he has. The rest won't be happy unless they've undone the public vote, I wouldn't mind dumping them and running a minority.
There really isn’t time to have a leadership election. The clock is ticking, and I doubt the EU will change their demands based on who is in No 10.
It's no deal. No way the EU just accept May's proposal, at best they'll say more work needed, which may cannot accept even if she wants. There's no time, as you say, for something else after a contest, therefore it's a contest to see if the party will ok no v deal
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
Bear in mind that Brexit is far from the only issue that will decide how MPs and members vote. In a leadership contest, they will be electing a prime minister, not writing a manifesto.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
What I really fail to grasp is how he was appointed in the first place. The task was so far beyond his, admittedly modest skill set, it wasn't even funny. Did May really want the negotiation to be executed poorly?
He was supposed to own it, same with Fox and Boris. They’ve all done miserably.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
The point is the ultras on either side prevent anything from happening. The pretence that all of them can be made happy has led to the incompetent dithering and can kicking we have seen.
Until they tories fight this out they cannot move on. Whether enough is left to move on after the fight remains to be seen.
A leadership election will bridge a lot of the gap. If someone like Javid wins then he'll get the support of all groups except the remainer ultras, only around half of those will back whatever vision of brexit he has. The rest won't be happy unless they've undone the public vote, I wouldn't mind dumping them and running a minority.
Javid backed May's deal which leaver ultras say is a no go. How does he get their support?
No. Corbyn is a hypocrite given his continual trouble with his MPs, but May is toast and no group in the tories looks strong enough to beat the others outright. An attempt to pretend they are one happy family is the farce we've been subjected to for a year and more. If two leaver ultras are in the final the ultra remainers need to go, if a non ultra leaver gets through and wins the ultra leavers need to go, since there's no chance they play nice if they lose.
Javid has an out, he was promised no preferential treatment for EU citizens by the PM at Chequers, today that's been walked back. He can easily withdraw his support and resign to force a leadership election. If he does he will pick up a lot of support very quickly.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I think it's an absolute certainty that they'll split. They're not only facing in different directions but pulling strongly in different directions.
In which case Labour will split soon after, it is straining the elastic to breaking point keeping Umunna and Kendall and Corbyn and McDonnell in the same party.
At least the majority of the Cabinet has not yet resigned unlike the majority of Corbyn's formet Shadow Cabinet
The hope of government will keep labour in place. They didn't split when they thought a tory landslide was coming, they won't now.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Tmay has to go. Fuck her and her weird aspergery hand movements. She is a walking disaster. She is (inter alia) a victim of her own autism. All those red lines so soon? What An Idiot.
Elect a Hard Brexit leader. If it is No Deal Brexit we will cope. We have seen worse. We survived the fucking Blitz. Let the nation unite around Harry Kane and rhubarb crumble.
SeanT goes overnight from backing the Great May Brexit fudge to backing Davis and Mogg full hard Brexit.
SeanT dithered between Remain and Leave before eventually going for Leave.
Leave narrowly won. On Brexit as SeanT goes so goes the nation?
Sean T for PM? At least there would be no dithering and we could provide the certainty business needs on day 1!!
We have tried the Chamberlain approach - time for Churchill and rhubarb crumble....?
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
Bear in mind that Brexit is far from the only issue that will decide how MPs and members vote. In a leadership contest, they will be electing a prime minister, not writing a manifesto.
Absolutely, and most MPs will vote with 2022 in mind. That's why Theresa would lose. She's a proven loser.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Tmay has to go. Fuck her and her weird aspergery hand movements. She is a walking disaster. She is (inter alia) a victim of her own autism. All those red lines so soon? What An Idiot.
Elect a Hard Brexit leader. If it is No Deal Brexit we will cope. We have seen worse. We survived the fucking Blitz. Let the nation unite around Harry Kane and rhubarb crumble.
SeanT goes overnight from backing the Great May Brexit fudge to backing Davis and Mogg full hard Brexit.
SeanT dithered between Remain and Leave before eventually going for Leave.
Leave narrowly won. On Brexit as SeanT goes so goes the nation?
Sean T for PM? At least there would be no dithering and we could provide the certainty business needs on day 1!!
We have tried the Chamberlain approach - time for Churchill and rhubarb crumble....?
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
May won't resign, she will cling on if she wins a no confidence vote and attempt to hold on until the end of the transition period
Actually, she will win the Tory PP vote. But therein lies another conundrum also faced by the 172 Labour MPs in 2015. They thought the people will solve the problem with a landslide Tory win. Not only that did not happen, Corbyn was legitimised totally.
What will the 100 or so Tory Brexiters do if she wins the confidence vote ? Certainly the 75 or so "hard" brexiters.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
No way, if we proposed any referendum which has remain on the ballot paper we'd be out of powered for a generation or longer. It would be "the deal" vs "No deal" both options would take us out of the EU.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
No way, if we proposed any referendum which has remain on the ballot paper we'd be out of powered for a generation or longer. It would be "the deal" vs "No deal" both options would take us out of the EU.
If people voted in a landslide for Remain the party would just have to reorientate itself back to being a pro-EU party and it would be fine.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
Not if a leaver becomes PM , calls a GE to get a mandate, with the clock ticking we withdraw from negotiations on the grounds of EU being unreasonable, and go WTO , don't pay the EU a penny more than were have to, with a view to negotiating a FTA with the EU after brexit. We voted to leave the EU, that needs to be enacted.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
No way, if we proposed any referendum which has remain on the ballot paper we'd be out of powered for a generation or longer. It would be "the deal" vs "No deal" both options would take us out of the EU.
Parliament has to agree the wording. The Tory party cannot do this on their own.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
May won't resign, she will cling on if she wins a no confidence vote and attempt to hold on until the end of the transition period
Actually, she will win the Tory PP vote. But therein lies another conundrum also faced by the 172 Labour MPs in 2015. They thought the people will solve the problem with a landslide Tory win. Not only that did not happen, Corbyn was legitimised totally.
What will the 100 or so Tory Brexiters do if she wins the confidence vote ? Certainly the 75 or so "hard" brexiters.
I doubt she would win. She's made too many enemies and she's a proven loser, MPs will take the opportunity to dump her and take their chances with the next leader for 2022.
A leadership election will bridge a lot of the gap. If someone like Javid wins then he'll get the support of all groups except the remainer ultras, only around half of those will back whatever vision of brexit he has. The rest won't be happy unless they've undone the public vote, I wouldn't mind dumping them and running a minority.
Javid backed May's deal which leaver ultras say is a no go. How does he get their support?
No. Corbyn is a hypocrite given his continual trouble with his MPs, but May is toast and no group in the tories looks strong enough to beat the others outright. An attempt to pretend they are one happy family is the farce we've been subjected to for a year and more. If two leaver ultras are in the final the ultra remainers need to go, if a non ultra leaver gets through and wins the ultra leavers need to go, since there's no chance they play nice if they lose.
Javid has an out, he was promised no preferential treatment for EU citizens by the PM at Chequers, today that's been walked back. He can easily withdraw his support and resign to force a leadership election. If he does he will pick up a lot of support very quickly.
This is probably not true, but it might work. If he is next to resign he has a chance. Otherwise he is finished as a leadership contender.
Poor Javid - his whole career based on seeing which way the wind blows and now there is a tornado!
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
No way, if we proposed any referendum which has remain on the ballot paper we'd be out of powered for a generation or longer. It would be "the deal" vs "No deal" both options would take us out of the EU.
But the tories cannot agree on what deal to ask for. There is no deal to be had now -May's gambit has failed. Therefore there is nothing to put to the people. No deal does not have enough support either. So sonething must be given as an alternative. It will be remain.
And yes they probably will be out of power for a generation. Brexit has destroyed it. It held on for a bit, but the sides cannot coexist like this.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
No way, if we proposed any referendum which has remain on the ballot paper we'd be out of powered for a generation or longer. It would be "the deal" vs "No deal" both options would take us out of the EU.
If people voted in a landslide for Remain the party would just have to reorientate itself back to being a pro-EU party and it would be fine.
No, because no deal would win and we'd be seen as traitors for the rest of time.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
May won't resign, she will cling on if she wins a no confidence vote and attempt to hold on until the end of the transition period
Actually, she will win the Tory PP vote. But therein lies another conundrum also faced by the 172 Labour MPs in 2015. They thought the people will solve the problem with a landslide Tory win. Not only that did not happen, Corbyn was legitimised totally.
What will the 100 or so Tory Brexiters do if she wins the confidence vote ? Certainly the 75 or so "hard" brexiters.
I doubt she would win. She's made too many enemies and she's a proven loser, MPs will take the opportunity to dump her and take their chances with the next leader for 2022.
agreed, this would be their last chance to depose her before 2022, they will not want TM running again for the next GE after 2017
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
Is that the polite Tory way of saying why don't you F___off and join the Tories then?
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
No way, if we proposed any referendum which has remain on the ballot paper we'd be out of powered for a generation or longer. It would be "the deal" vs "No deal" both options would take us out of the EU.
But the tories cannot agree on what deal to ask for. There is no deal to be had now -May's gambit has failed. Therefore there is nothing to put to the people. No deal does not have enough support either. So sonething must be given as an alternative. It will be remain.
And yes they probably will be out of power for a generation. Brexit has destroyed it. It held on for a bit, but the sides cannot coexist like this.
Nah, you're far too negative on this. We won't split because 20 or so MPs from the 2017 election won't get in line. We might run the clock down on brexit, leave and then go to the public with a new leader.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
There's not a majority for no deal Brexit in the Tory parliamentary party, I should think, why is opposing that against party principles ?
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again. It's not like if may wins, or someone who backs the deal, that Mogg and co will suddenly be supportive of it.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Brexit is just an issue. It's a big issue but it's not an existential one; that's what UKIP's for.
Once there has been a contest and a vote, the new leader has the authority of the Party behind him or her and those who don't like it will have much more trouble opposing it than at present. I think the membership will be a lot less understanding of rebels after a clear mandate has been given to a new leader.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
Is that the polite Tory way of saying F___off and join the Tories?
This Tory would never use that kind of language but I am now in the Grieve, Soubry group propelled there by Boris FO to Airbus
So who will replace him? Perhaps, in a radical departure from her previous strategy, May will appoint somebody who is not a clueless drunken old sod. Maybe Gove, the Grima Wormtongue of the cabinet, will be recognised as having the utter lack of principles we need in this terrible situation.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
There's not a majority for no deal Brexit in the Tory parliamentary party, I should think, why is opposing that against party principles ?
Why not wait until the morning when the media are better equipped to cover your flounce?
An even bigger name is resigning in the morning...
No - if there was and organised plot, Davis would have resigned around 8-9pm, in order to hit the morning papers and the 10pm news slots without giving No 10 much time to respond. Resigning so late is rotten PR tactics. I'd say that he's acting alone, not for the first time.
That said, immense pressure now on Boris, Fox and the rest to follow up. Especially Boris, given what was leaked. Interesting question, mind, as to who leaked it. Boris had nothing to gain from that but nor did May. The natural assumption is that it was a different Brexiteer, possibly one who had his or her eye on the leadership and certainly one who wishes harm on Boris.
Actually, waiting to resign was a great move. Anything yesterday would have been drowned out by the World Cup and would have played into May's 'taxi' narrative. It would also have looked impulsive. Now he can claim he considered it, asked for clarifications from May and when they were not forthcoming he resigned. They have clear press air Monday and Tuesday and May has to face the 1922 tomorrow. That should be fun.
I cannot see how she survives, although this does have a feeling of 2008/2009 and the Labour Party trying to get rid of Gordon Brown. Will the Tory Party be more successful at removing an ill suited leader. I’ve long tipped Javid for leader, and if they could manoeuvre him into position they could be alright. First thing needed would be a large number of Civil Servants working out what no deal looks like, which should have been our base negotiating position all along.
What I really fail to grasp is how he was appointed in the first place. The task was so far beyond his, admittedly modest skill set, it wasn't even funny. Did May really want the negotiation to be executed poorly?
He was supposed to own it, same with Fox and Boris. They’ve all done miserably.
So who will replace him? Perhaps, in a radical departure from her previous strategy, May will appoint somebody who is not a clueless drunken old sod. Maybe Gove, the Grima Wormtongue of the cabinet, will be recognised as having the utter lack of principles we need in this terrible situation.
No, she needs a patsy who doesn't mind being undermined by Remainer Robbins.
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
No way, if we proposed any referendum which has remain on the ballot paper we'd be out of powered for a generation or longer. It would be "the deal" vs "No deal" both options would take us out of the EU.
But the tories cannot agree on what deal to ask for. There is no deal to be had now -May's gambit has failed. Therefore there is nothing to put to the people. No deal does not have enough support either. So sonething must be given as an alternative. It will be remain.
And yes they probably will be out of power for a generation. Brexit has destroyed it. It held on for a bit, but the sides cannot coexist like this.
Nah, you're far too negative on this. We won't split because 20 or so MPs from the 2017 election won't get in line. We might run the clock down on brexit, leave and then go to the public with a new leader.
They might not split. But they should. And it's more than 20. What if someone who backs the deal wins? Then you've got 60 plus who won't get in line. It's become a joke. The party needs to decide what it's stance is already.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
There's not a majority for no deal Brexit in the Tory parliamentary party, I should think, why is opposing that against party principles ?
The nation voted to leave. If we can’t get an acceptable deal, we should leave without one. The Tory MPs who don’t accept that are the ones going against party principles.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
Big_G would certainly be very welcome and valued in the Lib Dems if he ever decided to make such a move. I'm not suggesting that it's in his thoughts at all but I'm certainly more comfortable there myself.
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
There's not a majority for no deal Brexit in the Tory parliamentary party, I should think, why is opposing that against party principles ?
Thank you - my party are in crisis and I will not support any hard Brexiteers
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
Good for you. I honestly take no pleasure in seeing your party in such a state. I used to be a mainly Conservative voter myself until I switched to the Lib Dems and I still have a lot of respect for many of the Conservatives on the more liberal wing of the party. If I had to choose for one of the big two parties to implode/self-destruct it wouldn't be the Conservatives.
Maybe it was inevitable but if we go full on hard Brexit I will resign
If that’s your view, you’d probably be more comfortable in the Liberal Democrats.
Is that the polite Tory way of saying why don't you F___off and join the Tories then?
I think Moggites will soon join Corbynites in telling a lot of their Remainer and Blairite MPs to F off and join the LDs
That Boris statement must surely be a resignation statement if verified? In which case a confidence vote is very likely this week I would have thought
I am not at all sure that it will be necessary. I think TM will resign as well triggering a leadership campaign
I really hope so, because with TM Brexit does not mean Brexit, her red lines are not red at all, she is a remainer in leave clothing, she has to go, she has betrayed the democratic will of the British people
This actually makes leave much less likely and TM, to her credit, tried to agree a deal that would have a chance with the EU and the HOC. The end game will now be a Norway style deal or remain
I'd say no deal or remain.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
No way, if we proposed any referendum which has remain on the ballot paper we'd be out of powered for a generation or longer. It would be "the deal" vs "No deal" both options would take us out of the EU.
But the tories cannot agree on what deal to ask for. There is no deal to be had now -May's gambit has failed. Therefore there is nothing to put to the people. No deal does not have enough support either. So sonething must be given as an alternative. It will be remain.
And yes they probably will be out of power for a generation. Brexit has destroyed it. It held on for a bit, but the sides cannot coexist like this.
Nah, you're far too negative on this. We won't split because 20 or so MPs from the 2017 election won't get in line. We might run the clock down on brexit, leave and then go to the public with a new leader.
They might not split. But they should. And it's more than 20. What if someone who backs the deal wins? Then you've got 60 plus who won't get in line. It's become a joke. The party needs to decide what it's stance is already.
If it gets to the membership then it will be whoever is more sceptic. Both final candidates will use May's insipid deal as a starting point and atrip away or add to it what they want, though.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again. It's not like if may wins, or someone who backs the deal, that Mogg and co will suddenly be supportive of it.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Brexit is just an issue. It's a big issue but it's not an existential one; that's what UKIP's for.
Once there has been a contest and a vote, the new leader has the authority of the Party behind him or her and those who don't like it will have much more trouble opposing it than at present. I think the membership will be a lot less understanding of rebels after a clear mandate has been given to a new leader.
Come on David. The majority Brexit-supporting membership won’t be bought off with fine words after this fiasco.
Perhaps the Tories must now split. A leadership contest will be held, and the supporters of the losing candidate won’t follow the new leader.
History doesn’t repeat, but it rhymes...
I expect that there will be a leadership contest. And I expect that the Party will unite around the new leader.
Why? There does not seem support across a majority for what the Rees Moggs of the world want either. Surely someone new takes over and the fight just begins again.
The party needs to split. It no longer has common cause on the fundamental issue of the day. If the sides cannot agree on a middle way, and they self evidently cannot, they should stop pretending.
Not really, there are probably about 20 remainer ultras, 20-30 remainer-lites (think May/Hammond), 50-60 Brexit-lite (think Javid) and another 60-80 Brexit-ultras. The rest are somewhere in between and biddable.
The point is the ultras on either side prevent anything from happening. The pretence that all of them can be made happy has led to the incompetent dithering and can kicking we have seen.
Until they tories fight this out they cannot move on. Whether enough is left to move on after the fight remains to be seen.
A leadership election will bridge a lot of the gap. If someone like Javid wins then he'll get the support of all groups except the remainer ultras, only around half of those will back whatever vision of brexit he has. The rest won't be happy unless they've undone the public vote, I wouldn't mind dumping them and running a minority.
There really isn’t time to have a leadership election. The clock is ticking, and I doubt the EU will change their demands based on who is in No 10.
We need to have a bloodletting, it's the only way for the party to move on. Its been far too long since we all had a massive and open fight over the soul/heart of the party. Right now there's too much sniping and bad blood for a unity candidate and coronation, no one will agree on the candidate.
Which is all fine and dandy for the Tory Party. The country may come to feel that p*ssing about with an internal civil war less than nine months before the country falls over a cliff edge is less than responsible.
And lets not forget: the current status of the deal is no deal and it will remain that way until something is actually agreed.
Comments
That was quick, did he know?
In the end this looks like a peoples vote is inevitable as is staying in
At least the majority of the Cabinet has not yet resigned unlike the majority of Corbyn's formet Shadow Cabinet
No. Corbyn is a hypocrite given his continual trouble with his MPs, but May is toast and no group in the tories looks strong enough to beat the others outright. An attempt to pretend they are one happy family is the farce we've been subjected to for a year and more. If two leaver ultras are in the final the ultra remainers need to go, if a non ultra leaver gets through and wins the ultra leavers need to go, since there's no chance they play nice if they lose.
We have tried the Chamberlain approach - time for Churchill and rhubarb crumble....?
I’m being forced to go because you voted Leave.
I’d much rather work in the UK but I’ve got a family to look after, sovereignty don’t pay the bills.
The Tories are pretty fucked. Corbyn is laughing right now, he just has to watch them destroy any chance of winning the next election. His own inability to formuulate a policy on brexit doesn't even matter.
That said, the Three Lions thread would still have worked.
What will the 100 or so Tory Brexiters do if she wins the confidence vote ? Certainly the 75 or so "hard" brexiters.
https://twitter.com/jgforsyth/status/1016109663899680769?s=21
https://twitter.com/joncstone/status/1016109708304900098
Poor Javid - his whole career based on seeing which way the wind blows and now there is a tornado!
Davis's letter has something of the Geoffrey Howe about it. It is devastating in its attack on May.
And yes they probably will be out of power for a generation. Brexit has destroyed it. It held on for a bit, but the sides cannot coexist like this.
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2018/jul/09/david-davis-resigns-as-brexit-secretary-live-updates
a remainer
Come on Boris, serve the nation - bring this absurd house of cards crashing down.
Once there has been a contest and a vote, the new leader has the authority of the Party behind him or her and those who don't like it will have much more trouble opposing it than at present. I think the membership will be a lot less understanding of rebels after a clear mandate has been given to a new leader.
"Europe Elects
@EuropeElects
11h11 hours ago
UK, Survation poll:
EU membership referendum
Remain: 52% (-1)
Leave: 48% (+1)
Field work: 7/7/18
Sample size: 1,007"
The Brexiteer who gets to the final two will win.
And lets not forget: the current status of the deal is no deal and it will remain that way until something is actually agreed.