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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The limitations of polling: How Americans responded when as

SystemSystem Posts: 12,058
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The limitations of polling: How Americans responded when asked if a law that didn’t exist should be repealed

When phone samples were asked for their views about the repeal of the 1975 Public Affairs Act, a piece of legislation that doesn’t exist, 20-40% of those questioned were ready to offer views even though this was entirely fictional.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    First!
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    A classic "fail" in this approach was last Sunday's Sunday People by ComRes when attaching the "toxic" Osborne's name to a question still did not result in an answer they were looking for :

    "I agree with George Osborne that the welfare system in Britain is broken":
    Agree: 66
    Disagree: 20

    http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/poll-reveals-more-half-people-1815925
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    edited April 2013
    "Labour Lead Slashed by 40%" (sic)

    Latest YouGov / The Sun results 11th April - CON 32%, LAB 42%, LD 9%, UKIP 11%; APP -33

    http://cdn.yougov.com/cumulus_uploads/document/hg95lj9txi/YG-Archive-Pol-Sun-results-110413.pdf

    Some interesting changes in the supplementaries, which may, or may not, be Thatcher related:

    Succeeded in moving on & left its past behind it:
    Con : 18 (+5)
    Lab : 21 (-3)

    Appeals to one section of society rather than whole country:
    Con : 52 (+3)
    Lab : 22 (+3)
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    YouGov

    App: -33

    More Scotland VI Variations

    Scotland Subsample

    Cons: 25; LAB: 43; LD: 5; SNP 17; UKIP 8

    Yesterday
    Cons 17; Lab 40; LD 8; SNP 32; UKIP 2

    Previous day:
    Cons:14; LAB:35; LD 24; SNP 17; UKIP:9 :
  • As I said yesterday the daily YG fluctuations do not merit much comment. Maybe weekly or monthly they can tell us something.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,545
    It's an interesting study. I'm not surprised that some people responded to such a question, or the way the results change according to named individuals. The scale is surprising, however.

    All in all it's a good article, with some thought-provoking results.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    scampi said:

    As I said yesterday the daily YG fluctuations do not merit much comment. Maybe weekly or monthly they can tell us something.

    Only when our friends on the left can crow about the "failure" of the latest policy initiatives to move the polls in the way they had said the "PB Tories" had said it would.

    I expect BenM to be along to condemn the "splitter" Blair for leading to Labour's "slump"! Or not.

  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,402
    Interesting article. But it perhaps tells us more about politics than polling. I suspect some people vote in real elections in a similar way, aligning themselves with a popular figure while knowing less about the issues or proposed legislation.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,545
    They will play it, and it will be a pyrrhic victory for the idiots organising it.

    As an aside, according to Guido the single's only been downloaded 20,000 times, yet is high on the provisional charts. My (perhaps faulty) memory from the 1980s was that a single needed at least an order of magnitude more sales in order to be at a hope of reaching No. 1 . Have single sales / downloads really fallen that much?

    (fx: checks. It seems it vaties, but has dropped: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UK_Singles_Chart_number_ones )
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,451
    What seems to fluctuate with YG is the Tory number. The Labour one is remarkably steady.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    The Sun says:

    "TALKING of the importance of free speech . .

    On Sunday, Ding Dong! The Witch Is Dead could well be in the Top Ten.

    Hijacked by those celebrating Lady Thatcher’s death, the BBC is likely to play it on the Radio 1 chart show.

    Yes, the very thought is truly abhorrent. But there is a big principle at stake.

    As Tory MP Rob Wilson has said, Maggie “didn’t free millions of people in order to censor a tiny number of nasty idiots”.

    The BBC and other broadcasters should play it — but clearly disassociate themselves from the sentiment behind it."

    http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/sun_says/4508014/The-Sun-says-Building-for-the-future.html
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 41,545
    tim said:

    @JosiasJessop

    Of course the hysterical press campaign is driving the downloads now.
    They are like Mary Whitehouse searching for something to be disgusted by.

    And I see anti-censorship campaigner Guido Fawkes is demanding censorship.

    No. It was already sailing high in this week's chart when I first saw it reported (on here, I think). What's driving the downloads are disrespectful idiots downloading the single.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    The 1975 Public Affairs act was signed into law by Gerald Ford in the aftermath of Watergate. while it may be an over reaction, it has stood the test of time. I see no point in repeal.

    Next they will suggest that the minister for Silly Walks is an anachronism, though I do accept that the ministry does struggle with contemporary attitudes to disability.
  • The Sun gets it right:

    " As Tory MP Rob Wilson has said, Maggie “didn’t free millions of people in order to censor a tiny number of nasty idiots”."

  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    "A public relations expert said Mr Umunna’s response was a ‘PR crime’.
    Stuart Bell, co-founder of the PR firm DawBell, said: ‘A quote including “no recollection” for this particular situation is a PR crime. Phrases such as “I can’t say for certain” almost scream out “yes, it was me, I did it”.’

    Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2307514/Labours-Chuka-Umunna-remember-DID-use-law-firm-liken-Barack-Obama-Wikipedia.html#ixzz2QE5A4VxK
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596
    tim said:



    And I see anti-censorship campaigner Guido Fawkes is demanding censorship.

    worst libertarian ever
  • @SouthamObserver

    "What seems to fluctuate with YG is the Tory number. The Labour one is remarkably steady."

    Correct - my own guess for what it's worth is there are more shy/disaffected Tories who can't be added to respond to the survey requests - I typically get about a dozen every month and delete most.
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596


    As Tory MP Rob Wilson has said, Maggie “didn’t free millions of people in order to censor a tiny number of nasty idiots”.

    she wasn't in favour of censorship, just liked to promote the careers of irish voice-over artistes
  • dugarbandierdugarbandier Posts: 2,596



    No. It was already sailing high in this week's chart when I first saw it reported (on here, I think). What's driving the downloads are disrespectful idiots downloading the single.

    the over-reaction is ridiculous though. the dignified response would be just ignore. let the bbc play it without comment. no-one would notice. maybe some teenagers would be confused (assuming that teenagers are the ones listening to the chart countdown, if anybody is)
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    @Tim Playing devil's advocate, I expect the Mail and the Telegraph's response would be the standard left response of "No Platform".

    Personally, however, I'd play the record. It's poor taste and reflects very badly on the buyers, but the same could be said of two thirds of the top 40.
  • MillsyMillsy Posts: 900
    Questions like "do you hate the evil bedroom tax?" create headlines for papers but don't tell us much
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    On topic, this is a great object lesson in tribalism and voter stupidity.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    People still listen to the Sunday chart show ?

    This will be filed under great victories for the left - up the with getting 44% in a yougov.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,594
    I can't say I'm overly surprised by the findings. But then as many people will vote despite knowing next to nothing about the candidates or party policies, it's probably useful in trying to identify the scale of the active, clueless, donkey vote in America.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    The findings are good fun, and they reflect something that's a little bit true of nearly everyone. It's not possible to keep track of the details of every issue, so everyone from the PM down delegates judgment to some extent: if someone we really respect tells us that the Public Affairs Act needs to be preserved/kept, our initial leaning is as least to listen positively to the arguments. If we're very busy or not very interested (as many people are not in politics) it's tempting to just take their view on trust. That, more than terror of the whips, is one reason why MPs tend to go with their parties in the mass of minor legislative votes.

    The reverse is also true. People will offer an opinion on any issue that's been in the news. But we wildly exaggerate the extent to which it makes them rethink how they'll vote.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    Ashcroft ponders the lessons of 1992.

    http://lordashcroftpolls.com/2013/04/1992-the-last-elected-conservative-government/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=1992-the-last-elected-conservative-government&utm_source=Lord+Ashcroft+Polls&utm_campaign=fbd39c2a70-RSS_EMAIL_CAMPAIGN&utm_medium=email

    "John Major had a number of advantages. One was that after only 16 months in
    office, people were willing to give him the chance to show what he could do (the
    same chance they would have given Gordon Brown in 2007). Another advantage was
    Neil Kinnock. Cameron can take no comfort from the first, but nor should he from
    the second: while many potential Labour voters find Ed Miliband unconvincing,
    they do not see him as a liability."
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:

    People still listen to the Sunday chart show ?
    This will be filed under great victories for the left - up the with getting 44% in a yougov.

    That and funnelling money to tax-minimising global corporations!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I have wondered what would the country be like had Maggie lost in 1979. Here is the manifesto:

    http://www.labour-party.org.uk/manifestos/1979/1979-labour-manifesto.shtml

    Interesting to see that a wealth tax, and a promise of a job to everyone unemployed for a year look likely to reappear for 2015, though in 13 years of New Labour government these were not enacted.

    Interesting to see advocacy for EU budget reform, sales of council housing, and targeting 5% inflation there also.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    antifrank said:

    On topic, this is a great object lesson in tribalism and voter stupidity.

    Why is it stupid for voters to trust either their President or the the leaders of their party? And as Nick Palmer reminds us, MPs behave in the same way: trusting the whips and party leaders. Even ministers are said often not to know what is in the bills they present until a day or two before standing up in the House.
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,553
    Top polling by YouGov. I also liked Panetta-Burns, PPP's polling on a made-up deficit reduction plan.

    Pollsters should be doing this kind of thing as a matter of course to give us a baseline to interpret the real results, in the same way that a medical study will have a placebo group. If a pollster tells us that 37% of voters think minister X should resign over affair Y, we should have a dummy poll telling us how many support the resignation of a made-up minister so that we can compare the current scandal to the Null Scandal.
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340

    antifrank said:

    On topic, this is a great object lesson in tribalism and voter stupidity.

    Why is it stupid for voters to trust either their President or the the leaders of their party? And as Nick Palmer reminds us, MPs behave in the same way: trusting the whips and party leaders. Even ministers are said often not to know what is in the bills they present until a day or two before standing up in the House.
    The poll shows that large numbers of voters will automatically oppose a measure supported by their political opponents, without further information about it, so your proposed mechanism is insufficient to rationalise the behaviour (which in any case seems dangerously naive to me and represents one of the major weaknesses in the behaviour of MPs). That's tribalism, I'd say.

    And of course, it shows that many people are willing to venture opinions on subjects about which they know absolutely nothing. That's stupidity, I'd say.
  • redcliffe62redcliffe62 Posts: 342
    I assume my comment about internet blogs being threatened by Tory donors has been modded?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Good morning, everyone.

    Still 27 minutes of P2 to go. Massa's fastest so far, and let's hope (cf pb2) he stays there.

    Interesting poll. It's a shame that some of the most interesting psych experiments (Milgram experiment, Stanley prison) are ethically dubious, because they threw up some fascinating results.

    In the same way, decades ago psychologists deliberately frightened very young babies, and in so doing found that physical contact mattered more than appearance. This changed because babies had previously been kept separate from mothers, but afterwards were encouraged to be held a lot. For millions it will have been a benefit, but it's hard to argue the traumatised babies involved will be glad to have participated.

    Oh, and on a similar note to the above polling there was a fun homophobic psych experiment (well, questionnaires) I read about. It was about gay rights. Most homophobes, obviously, were against gay people having equal rights regarding adoption and so forth. However, when informed gay people themselves were against themselves having such rights the homophobes did a volte-face and *wanted* them to have rights of adoption, and so forth.

    So, disagreeing with the group they disliked mattered more than giving them greater rights.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,242
    And in a PB equivalent I see that tim didn't explain yesturday what exactly was so terrible about Section 28.

    So his five years of faux outraged posturing regarding it here turned out to be all froth.

    It was merely a question of pressing the buttons marked outrage.

    Never mind tim 99% of people wouldn't know what Section 28 amounted to either and 90% wouldn't care one way or another even if they did.

    Incidentally did you know it was the Thatcher government which legalised homosexuality in both Scotland and Northern Ireland?
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916

    antifrank said:

    On topic, this is a great object lesson in tribalism and voter stupidity.

    Why is it stupid for voters to trust either their President or the the leaders of their party? And as Nick Palmer reminds us, MPs behave in the same way: trusting the whips and party leaders. Even ministers are said often not to know what is in the bills they present until a day or two before standing up in the House.
    That shows a huge degree of incompetency over the management of detail.
  • anotherDaveanotherDave Posts: 6,746
    There is also the question of honesty distorting poll results.

    http://blog.al.com/spotnews/2013/04/people_in_the_south_are_not_so.html#incart_river_default
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    And in a PB equivalent I see that tim didn't explain yesturday what exactly was so terrible about Section 28.

    So his five years of faux outraged posturing regarding it here turned out to be all froth.

    It was merely a question of pressing the buttons marked outrage.

    Never mind tim 99% of people wouldn't know what Section 28 amounted to either and 90% wouldn't care one way or another even if they did.

    Incidentally did you know it was the Thatcher government which legalised homosexuality in both Scotland and Northern Ireland?

    Was any prosecution ever undertaken or threatened under section 28?

    Mrs T was also a supporter of legalising homosexuality among men in the 1960's; homosexuality amongst women was never illegal, I believe.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Massa looking very good.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all

    As Tory MP Rob Wilson has said, Maggie - “didn’t free millions of people in order to censor a tiny number of nasty idiots”.

    Nail on head - Sounds like an eminently sensible chap.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    RT @HistoryNeedsYou: Good morning. Happy birthday to the #UnionFlag, created in 1606 by Royal Decree of King James http://t.co/PzfKmMR2Oo
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Indeed, Mr. StClare. Freedom of speech must include the freedom to be offensive.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited April 2013
    @Tim
    I wasn't aware of the camapign to get the song to Number 1 until I read about it in the Mail and Telegraph.
    There was also an article containing private family information in the Mail about the Thatchers that left me feeling queazy. <blockquote class="Quote" rel="tim">@JosiasJessop

    Of course the hysterical press campaign is driving the downloads now.
    They are like Mary Whitehouse searching for something to be disgusted by.

    And I see anti-censorship campaigner Guido Fawkes is demanding censorship.</blockquote>

    <blockquote class="Quote" rel="tim">@JosiasJessop

    Of course the hysterical press campaign is driving the downloads now.
    They are like Mary Whitehouse searching for something to be disgusted by.

    And I see anti-censorship campaigner Guido Fawkes is demanding censorship.</blockquote>
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @lukemcgee85: 'I need a packed lunch next Wednesday. Our teacher's taking us on a Death Party' http://goo.gl/rcrT http://twitter.com/lukemcgee85/status/322613783413534720/photo/1
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited April 2013
    Please ignore. Problem attaching a link.
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    Man's Inhumanity to Man (R. Burns).

    Whilst we may debate whether levels of certain crimes are rising or falling, the continued growth of the electronic media and its cheap availability to all has allowed the public pain and humiliation of the victims of crime to be prolonged.

    More and more frequently, the press has accounts of people (frequently young girls) who have been abused or raped and their perpetrators of those crimes have posted videos and/or pictures of the action of those crimes on social networking sites such as Facebook. The frequent result has been that the crime victims have committed suicide.

    It would appear that our criminal justice system is very slow to react to such events. Whilst it can be difficult to legally control the transnational owners of social networking sites (and I suspect that Facebook is not able to control its site any more), the perpetrators of such crimes are often known to the police who appear to be unable/unwilling to take any action.

    At the same time, suspicion of anyone holding but not 'broadcasting' pictures of paedophilic activity brings down the full force of law and a probably a criminal record. Also the same happens if one uses any words that are deemed 'racist' or 'homophobic' etc, but these victims are not publicly and eternally branded as those depicted on Facebook (as copies of their personal abuse is often copied to other websites.)

    Our forefathers in the Middle Ages used public humiliation to control those who offended public decency. Did they know more than we do? Of course they were not inhibited by an human rights legislation.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,402
    It may be a technical point, but I honestly can't recall seeing Thatcher free millions of people. I suspect I missed her standing next to Buzz Aldrin on the Sea of Tranquility as well.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    tim said:

    Oh good here comes Outraged ScottP helping us chart the Outrage as he helped us chart the Benefit bounce.

    Oh great, here comes my creepy stalker and his man crush.

    Can't let one day go by.

    Can't let one thread go by.

    Can't let one comment go by.

    Get a life.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    edited April 2013
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    Jonathan said:

    It may be a technical point, but I honestly can't recall seeing Thatcher free millions of people. I suspect I missed her standing next to Buzz Aldrin on the Sea of Tranquility as well.

    You were clearly never forced to join a Trade Union.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Jonathan said:

    It may be a technical point, but I honestly can't recall seeing Thatcher free millions of people. I suspect I missed her standing next to Buzz Aldrin on the Sea of Tranquility as well.

    Quite right!

    It was the Greenham Common women who ended the Cold War and the TUC that helped engineer the downfall of Soviet oppression...
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    Ding Dong and Tramp Down the Dirt - well if some are sad enough to want to hear them again, and help tax avoiding big music and electronics firms profits - why not. Will keep someone in employment dispatching and delivering CDs if they are also ordered. Is there still time to download Gordon is a Moron or The W"nker's Song by Ivor Biggun.

    I was sad enough to download music from Kate and Will's wedding, and wonder if there will be downloads of Margaret Thatcher's funeral music available later on Wednesday.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Will be putting together the pre-qualifying piece now. Unlikely to be a tip, though I'll probably cast my eyes over the markets quickly.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    This is for fans of Gordon Brown.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y3rD8fUmbRA
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,402
    Thanks Carlotta and Alanbrooke. I guess I'll have to be in the minority that doesn't see Thatcher in quite the same league as Lincoln or Moses.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,242
    tim said:

    @anotherrichard

    You've made it clear that you see Opposition to Section 28 and Thatchers position on the ANC as "middle class concerns"


    I haven't heard your views on the doubling of crime during her term in office, the trebling of benefit dependency or this figure

    "g. Social spending rose by more than 80 per cent in real terms under Thatcher, against “just” 50 per cent under New Labour. The number of people on incapacity benefit soared."


    I don't recall using the phrase "middle class concerns" but lets ignore that.

    As to the increase in crime and benefit dependency in the 1980s those were bad things but I suspect that both had increased substantially in the 1970s as well and likewise they would both have increased in similar countries around the world.

    I do suspect that they would also have increased under whichever government and prime minister Britain had had during the 1980s.

    But as you seem to have the numbers tim perhaps you could let us know the number of people who were benefit dependent in 1970, 1979, 1990, 1997 and 2010? I would be genuinely interested to see the changes.

    As to the ANC I think it was perfectly justifiable to regard Nelson Mandela as a terrorist in the 1980s, he did after all plead guilty to acts of terrorism.

    I would also say that those acts of terrorism were justifiable for someone from Mandela's background.

    And that it was fortunate for South Africa that the ANC's military activities were such dismal failures otherwise the country might have fallen into civil war. Perhaps some people here would have preferred that as long as they could have blamed Thatcher for it?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    @tim

    "Staunchly anti-communist Margaret Thatcher was key in hastening the fall of the Iron Curtain, Poland's former president and anti-communist freedom icon Lech Walesa said Monday, hailing the late former British leader.

    "She was a great person. She did a great deal for the world, along with (late US president) Ronald Reagan, pope John Paul II and Solidarity, she contributed to the demise of communism in Poland and Central Europe," an emotional Walesa told AFP."

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130408/thatcher-hastened-fall-iron-curtain-polands-lech-walesa
  • FinancierFinancier Posts: 3,916
    edited April 2013
    Beds, baths, and even an X-ray machine are among equipment reported stolen from hospitals across Wales.

    Wales' seven health boards were asked for a list of stolen property during the last five years under a Freedom of Information (FOI) request by BBC Wales.

    The most expensive theft was £78,000 worth of cable. Across Wales, the list also includes wheelchairs, a Philips X-ray machine and a £4,128 Transit van.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-22109590

    Hospitals are quick enough to impose fines for over-parking - but to lose a transit van and beds - MODERATED
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    tim said:

    @alanbrooke

    Well she certainly wanted the Berlin Wall to stay up, and was pretty keen on Jaruzelski in Poland.
    Never mind arming the Khmer Rouge.

    Since another_richard revealed you're a Brummy your posts just aren't the same. Gone is the sardonic scouse sharpness to be replaced by the Black Country monotony of Ozzie Osborne's brother. Timmy Osborne twinned with his cousin George, PB is somehow a lesser place today. :-(
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465
    Financier said:

    Man's Inhumanity to Man (R. Burns).

    Whilst we may debate whether levels of certain crimes are rising or falling, the continued growth of the electronic media and its cheap availability to all has allowed the public pain and humiliation of the victims of crime to be prolonged.

    More and more frequently, the press has accounts of people (frequently young girls) who have been abused or raped and their perpetrators of those crimes have posted videos and/or pictures of the action of those crimes on social networking sites such as Facebook. The frequent result has been that the crime victims have committed suicide.

    It would appear that our criminal justice system is very slow to react to such events. Whilst it can be difficult to legally control the transnational owners of social networking sites (and I suspect that Facebook is not able to control its site any more), the perpetrators of such crimes are often known to the police who appear to be unable/unwilling to take any action.

    At the same time, suspicion of anyone holding but not 'broadcasting' pictures of paedophilic activity brings down the full force of law and a probably a criminal record. Also the same happens if one uses any words that are deemed 'racist' or 'homophobic' etc, but these victims are not publicly and eternally branded as those depicted on Facebook (as copies of their personal abuse is often copied to other websites.)

    Our forefathers in the Middle Ages used public humiliation to control those who offended public decency. Did they know more than we do? Of course they were not inhibited by an human rights legislation.

    I'm confused by your last para. Do you favour public humiliation for people we don't like, either as a private action or a public sanction? The rest of your post suggests you don't, but the last para seems to imply it was a good thing, regrettably blocked by human rights legislation. Are you suggesting that courts tweet humiliating messages as part of punishment, or that the police should do so without needing to bother with a trial, or that we all just tweet angrily at people we disapprove of, or what?
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    tim said:

    @Alanbrooke

    Another richard has a fertile imagination.

    Best get Labour to recruit him then, you middle class ponces are a bit short on policy ideas.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    And in a PB equivalent I see that tim didn't explain yesturday what exactly was so terrible about Section 28.

    So his five years of faux outraged posturing regarding it here turned out to be all froth.

    It was merely a question of pressing the buttons marked outrage.

    Never mind tim 99% of people wouldn't know what Section 28 amounted to either and 90% wouldn't care one way or another even if they did.

    Incidentally did you know it was the Thatcher government which legalised homosexuality in both Scotland and Northern Ireland?

    Probably because she didn't want half her cabinet to be indulging in acts that were illegal when they visited those places.

  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    @CarlottaVance
    It is the first time I realised that Maggie's actions lead to increasing the diversity of the nation by setting in train the events that enabled people from Eastern Europe to eventually settle in the UK.

    @tim

    "Staunchly anti-communist Margaret Thatcher was key in hastening the fall of the Iron Curtain, Poland's former president and anti-communist freedom icon Lech Walesa said Monday, hailing the late former British leader.

    "She was a great person. She did a great deal for the world, along with (late US president) Ronald Reagan, pope John Paul II and Solidarity, she contributed to the demise of communism in Poland and Central Europe," an emotional Walesa told AFP."

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130408/thatcher-hastened-fall-iron-curtain-polands-lech-walesa

  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,465



    Was any prosecution ever undertaken or threatened under section 28?

    No, because it didn't create a criminal offence - it was targeted at councils and their employees. It did have a chilling effect, partly because it wasn't clear exactly what it meant and basically anything which portrayed gay people in any kind of sympathetic light was seen as risky - see

    http://web.archive.org/web/20070818063344/http://www.knittingcircle.org.uk/gleanings2889.html

    (picked this link up from wikipedia's piece on the Section)

  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,242
    tim said:

    @Alanbrooke

    Another richard has a fertile imagination.


    tim, if I have wrongly tagged you as coming from Birmingham then let me apologise.

    Your knowledge of things Brummy suggested as much to me.

    With the exception of Aston Villa's celebrity fans Birmingham must be the most unfashionable of Britain's cities.

    And with that a good day to all at PB.
  • SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976

    Indeed, Mr. StClare. Freedom of speech must include the freedom to be offensive.

    Indeed, Mr Dancer – unfortunately the latter is not so much a ‘freedom’ for some here, more a daily ritual.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Nothings too good for the workers.

    It looks like Chuka is making enemies. Personally, I am warming to him. I see why he fits so well into Millibands shadow cabinet. Both have inheireted well.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    The pb2 pre-qualifying piece for China (no tip) is up here: http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/china-pre-qualifying.html
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243

    @CarlottaVance
    It is the first time I realised that Maggie's actions lead to increasing the diversity of the nation by setting in train the events that enabled people from Eastern Europe to eventually settle in the UK.

    @tim

    "Staunchly anti-communist Margaret Thatcher was key in hastening the fall of the Iron Curtain, Poland's former president and anti-communist freedom icon Lech Walesa said Monday, hailing the late former British leader.

    "She was a great person. She did a great deal for the world, along with (late US president) Ronald Reagan, pope John Paul II and Solidarity, she contributed to the demise of communism in Poland and Central Europe," an emotional Walesa told AFP."

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130408/thatcher-hastened-fall-iron-curtain-polands-lech-walesa

    I suspect that was to be read with a touch of irony, but in fact her policies did enable lots of Poles to settle in the UK. And in another irony, her policies also led to an undermining of the UK as the most flexible place to do business in the EU when the Visegrad 4 subsequnetly joined. UK governments of all shades have been asleep as to what the opening of the East has meant to the UK economy and how to react.
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536
    The Chuka story is laughably weak. He seven years ago made a comment about the crapness of West End bars, which every Londoner will recognise and which is emphatically true. The jealousy over the Ibizan home just shows bumpkin Tory prejudices for what they are: only rightwingers are allowed to enjoy life. Pathetic.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    This sergeant is 52yrs old - clearly he's tweeting using his shoe size

    RT @CataNigra: I hope M Thatcher's death was degrading and painful, tweets sick Scotland Yard sergeant http://t.co/aXLmrlkxZM via @MailOnline
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    @CarlottaVance
    It is the first time I realised that Maggie's actions lead to increasing the diversity of the nation by setting in train the events that enabled people from Eastern Europe to eventually settle in the UK.

    Another feather in her cap! In particular I suspect she would have been keen to welcome the Poles after WWII
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    For those who love Mrs T and hate aid...

    RT @PaulGoodmanCH: "We have the sixth largest aid programme in the western world." #Thatcher #CompassionateConservatism #87Manifesto
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    @Alanbrooke
    I might be wrong, but if I remember correctly, the idea was that the more E European countries that joined, the weaker would be the centralisation powers of the EU? The idea was to dilute the powers of the organisation and the E Europeans were seen as potential allies against the Franco-german bloc?

    @CarlottaVance
    It is the first time I realised that Maggie's actions lead to increasing the diversity of the nation by setting in train the events that enabled people from Eastern Europe to eventually settle in the UK.

    @tim

    "Staunchly anti-communist Margaret Thatcher was key in hastening the fall of the Iron Curtain, Poland's former president and anti-communist freedom icon Lech Walesa said Monday, hailing the late former British leader.

    "She was a great person. She did a great deal for the world, along with (late US president) Ronald Reagan, pope John Paul II and Solidarity, she contributed to the demise of communism in Poland and Central Europe," an emotional Walesa told AFP."

    http://www.globalpost.com/dispatch/news/afp/130408/thatcher-hastened-fall-iron-curtain-polands-lech-walesa

    I suspect that was to be read with a touch of irony, but in fact her policies did enable lots of Poles to settle in the UK. And in another irony, her policies also led to an undermining of the UK as the most flexible place to do business in the EU when the Visegrad 4 subsequnetly joined. UK governments of all shades have been asleep as to what the opening of the East has meant to the UK economy and how to react.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Miss Plato, perhaps even more disturbing are his comments about May.

    If he were sacked, what would his pension situation be?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,243
    @old_labour.

    That was the theory, it hasn't worked in practice.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013

    Miss Plato, perhaps even more disturbing are his comments about May.

    If he were sacked, what would his pension situation be?

    Generally, if you're sacked from the police - you lose your pension rights, its a very touchy subject that requires you to either get to your 30yrs contracted service or to resign before it happens...
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Point me to a post where I showed class prejudice. Arguing with you is like debating a childish schoolboy. "Yeah but.."

  • Plato said:

    This sergeant is 52yrs old - clearly he's tweeting using his shoe size

    RT @CataNigra: I hope M Thatcher's death was degrading and painful, tweets sick Scotland Yard sergeant http://t.co/aXLmrlkxZM via @MailOnline

    Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand about their online presence being as important as their private, or professional one?

    The bloke will probably lose his job, for not much really, other than having a hatred for Thatcher, and venting that hatred online.

    Now, though, after one of their own has been fingered for dodgy tweets, the Police might have a think about chasing after other keyboard warriors.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Slightly off point, but Visegrád is well worth a visit. It's a former capital of Hungary with a ruined castle on top of a hill on the bend in the Danube, with fantastic views. The walk up from the river is quite stiff, mind. And it's pronounced Vish-eh-grad (not Visa-grad as I originally imagined).
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    edited April 2013
    May I recommend reading @PaulGoodmanCH on Twitter - yesterday he tweeted the 79 Tory manifesto, today its 1983 all very entertaining.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    RT @phil_nicholas: Brilliant from @JeremyClarkson : "in the interest of balance I also look forward to attending Arthur Scargill's funeral".
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    After WWII, they settled under the Atlee government.
    Also, used to go with a friend of mind to the Czech and Slovak Club for a decent beer near West Hampstead.

    @CarlottaVance
    It is the first time I realised that Maggie's actions lead to increasing the diversity of the nation by setting in train the events that enabled people from Eastern Europe to eventually settle in the UK.

    Another feather in her cap! In particular I suspect she would have been keen to welcome the Poles after WWII
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Point me to a post where I showed class prejudice. Arguing with you is like debating a childish schoolboy. "Yeah but.."

    I didn't - my point was about Labour posters making the same class/wealth observations now being made about Chuka. Are you claiming such comments are not made?

    Since you are such a Chuka fanboy, perhaps you could clarify what is meant by "Jetrosexual"!

  • TwistedFireStopperTwistedFireStopper Posts: 2,538
    edited April 2013

    Come on Bob, Chukka has shown himself to be a vain, arrogant, rich-as-feck, out of touch poshlad.
    We've got more than enough of those in all our mainstream parties, so he deserves as much ridicule as the rest of 'em.
  • Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Point me to a post where I showed class prejudice. Arguing with you is like debating a childish schoolboy. "Yeah but.."

    I didn't - my point was about Labour posters making the same class/wealth observations now being made about Chuka. Are you claiming such comments are not made?

    Since you are such a Chuka fanboy, perhaps you could clarify what is meant by "Jetrosexual"!

    It's proper "four legs good, two legs better" stuff.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216

    After WWII, they settled under the Atlee government.
    Also, used to go with a friend of mind to the Czech and Slovak Club for a decent beer near West Hampstead.

    @CarlottaVance
    It is the first time I realised that Maggie's actions lead to increasing the diversity of the nation by setting in train the events that enabled people from Eastern Europe to eventually settle in the UK.

    Another feather in her cap! In particular I suspect she would have been keen to welcome the Poles after WWII
    Which is why I suspect we will see far fewer Romanian/Bulgarian immigrants than we did Poles - there already being an established Polish diaspora here.

  • OblitusSumMeOblitusSumMe Posts: 9,143

    And in a PB equivalent I see that tim didn't explain yesturday what exactly was so terrible about Section 28.

    So his five years of faux outraged posturing regarding it here turned out to be all froth.

    It was merely a question of pressing the buttons marked outrage.

    Never mind tim 99% of people wouldn't know what Section 28 amounted to either and 90% wouldn't care one way or another even if they did.

    Incidentally did you know it was the Thatcher government which legalised homosexuality in both Scotland and Northern Ireland?

    Was any prosecution ever undertaken or threatened under section 28?

    Mrs T was also a supporter of legalising homosexuality among men in the 1960's; homosexuality amongst women was never illegal, I believe.
    There is this, from Francis Maude's Wikipedia page:
    In a 2006 interview, Maude stated that the introduction of Section 28 legislation whilst he was in government (which banned councils from promoting homosexuality and led to the closure of gay support groups) was "a mistake", adding it might have even contributed to the AIDS death of his brother Charles, a homosexual, among others.
    Incidentally, Francis Maude is on the panel of Any Questions tonight, with Alan Johnson, Lis Duffy (from UKIP) and John Cooper QC.

    I might, or might not, have a ticket to go along tonight (I forget). So does anyone have any ideas for questions that might be asked?

    Given that Thatcher was a scientist, and two of the panellists are lawyers, I'm tempted to ask whether there should be more scientists and fewer lawyers in politics...
  • BobajobBobajob Posts: 1,536

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Point me to a post where I showed class prejudice. Arguing with you is like debating a childish schoolboy. "Yeah but.."

    I didn't - my point was about Labour posters making the same class/wealth observations now being made about Chuka. Are you claiming such comments are not made?

    Since you are such a Chuka fanboy, perhaps you could clarify what is meant by "Jetrosexual"!

    I have gone from defending him from your pathetic bumpkin prejudices to becoming a fanboy. No room for shades of grey in your brain, clearly. I guess jetrosexual means a trendy, well presented, straight man who travels. It's a bit w*nky but quite normal for clubland - he is a former house DJ and from that culture. So what? At least he's lived a little.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 77,481
    On topic: Reminds me of the Daily show sketch - Asking people who won last night's debate on Hollywood Boulevard in Los Angeles.

    And the overwhelming response was "I think Obama edged it", as one might expect in a heavily democrat area.

    The problem ? The debate was that evening - it hadn't taken place yet !

    O/T On "Ding dong" Well not to my taste but its a free world. The controversy and press coverage will probably drive sales amongst people who didn't even live in Thatcher's Govt.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724

    Plato said:

    This sergeant is 52yrs old - clearly he's tweeting using his shoe size

    RT @CataNigra: I hope M Thatcher's death was degrading and painful, tweets sick Scotland Yard sergeant http://t.co/aXLmrlkxZM via @MailOnline

    Why do seemingly intelligent people not understand about their online presence being as important as their private, or professional one?

    The bloke will probably lose his job, for not much really, other than having a hatred for Thatcher, and venting that hatred online.

    Now, though, after one of their own has been fingered for dodgy tweets, the Police might have a think about chasing after other keyboard warriors.

    I agree - I don't really think one's personal politics should have a bearing on one's employment provided your party isn't proscribed and you leave it at the door. However, when the Plod stamp all over a drunk teenager posting a rude tweet about Tom Daley's dead dad - then frankly its sauce for the gander.

    This chap was clearly very stupid - that he tweets about the police/has a plod related Twitter name doesn't help as he's blurring the line between his private opinions and the public office he holds. So Misconduct in Public Office charges will no doubt be forthcoming as a result.
  • BenMBenM Posts: 1,795
    On Topic:

    Conservatives are so tribal.
  • TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 41,531

    I assume my comment about internet blogs being threatened by Tory donors has been modded?

    I presume links to the press are okay? Good to see the Herald re-discovering its spine when threatened by Tory/Bettertogether donors.

    http://tinyurl.com/d3gsay8
  • BenM said:

    On Topic:

    Conservatives are so tribal.

    Ben, old mate, I think you need to add Labour, Lib Dem, UKIP, SNP and every other political party into that quote.

  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The stories about Chuka Umunna are amusing in a "feet of clay" sense, but they're hardly important. Lots of people have made snobby comments about others and lots of people have tinkered with their own Wikipedia entries. His bigger problem is that it's hard to imagine him defusing bigger problems with a deft and humorous confession of idiocy, because he appears to have too big an ego to do the smart thing.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Bobajob said:

    TGOHF said:
    "His millionaire dad"

    Curiously enough mentioned in neither his Wiki entry nor constituency profile.....

    ......just as well no one holds wealthy parents or going to a posh school against anyone......

    Yet more envious drivel from you. He is from a rich family? So what? The Labour Party is a broad church made up of people from all social classes.

    And Labour posters never ever make something of an MPs parents wealth or the educational choices they made for them....no siree!

    Point me to a post where I showed class prejudice. Arguing with you is like debating a childish schoolboy. "Yeah but.."

    I didn't - my point was about Labour posters making the same class/wealth observations now being made about Chuka. Are you claiming such comments are not made?

    Since you are such a Chuka fanboy, perhaps you could clarify what is meant by "Jetrosexual"!

    I guess jetrosexual means a trendy, well presented, straight man who travels.

    No doubt your defence would be just as robust if he was a Tory!

    I look forward to your future defences of Tories from "bumpkin prejudices"

    His favoured holiday destinations appear to be Ibiza and South Beach....

This discussion has been closed.