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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Tories hold on against an SNP challenge in Scotland but lo

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  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    edited April 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    For those backing Trump to survive, this is an interesting article.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/michael-cohen-and-the-end-stage-of-the-trump-presidency

    (I've laid lots of 2018 Trump exit, and a very small amount of 2019. I think laying at 10-1 on 2018 remains close to free money, but am increasingly nervous about 2019.)

    Very readable article. If Remainers are obliged to show respect to Leavers because they're in a majority are those who voted against Trump obliged to show respect to his supporters because they're in a majority?.....Read on the man's a c***.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,436

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Serious about doing what?

    Promoting trade, development, investment, growth in human capital, business and economic links and coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles.

    A 6-month horizon is a useful horizon for initiatives, projects and reports. Also keeps the momentum going. Every 2 years is a bit token.
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    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,336
    edited April 2018
    Prime Minister of Grenada, on behalf of the Carribean delegation, thanks and complements Theresa May on her distinguished leadership and conduct of the meetings of the group over the last two days.

    He went on to say he looks forward to the next 2 years under the stewardship of the Prime Minister
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Forgive my pedantry, but if it’s twice a year it is biannually.
    Yes CR means biennially (sp.?)
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,315
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    Sure. But India and Pakistan actually hate each other in a way that - say - Germany and Greece do not.
    How about Germany and Poland? Or Ireland and us?
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,436

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Forgive my pedantry, but if it’s twice a year it is biannually.
    Yes CR means biennially (sp.?)
    If it gets me off the hook, yes ;-)
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    edited April 2018
    rcs1000 said:

    For those backing Trump to survive, this is an interesting article.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/michael-cohen-and-the-end-stage-of-the-trump-presidency

    (I've laid lots of 2018 Trump exit, and a very small amount of 2019. I think laying at 10-1 on 2018 remains close to free money, but am increasingly nervous about 2019.)

    The 3.15 (to back) on Next President looks quite tempting to me (but have not backed). I backed similar levels a few months ago, but finished up flattening after one of the stories (I forget which). He is delivering something - it's hard to say what it is, but it is something. That might finish up as being quite popular. (cf Obama)

    (Disclosure: All green, the only person I've backed was Caroline Kennedy - think that was a mistake really now)
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    Problems caused by the difficulty in attracting and keeping agricultural workers.

    Doubtless caused by 'hostile environment' and 'xenophobic lies'.

    Except that this is in the Netherlands.

    And those silly Dutch farmers haven't followed the Guardian's advice and demanded taxpayer subsidised indentured labours from the third world but have invested in new technology.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/technology-43813284

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/technology-43824607/meet-the-robots-that-can-pick-and-plant-better-than-we-can
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    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830
    edited April 2018
    BigG, the Alan Johnson story isn’t news at this stage. What he’s said was pretty much the clarification issued after TMay’s PMQs that made clear that the decision wasn’t a ministerial one (as opposed to the hostile environment policy). E.g: (From the link earlier on): Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency." This was said shortly after PMQs on Wednesday.

  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    I don’t think the Commonwealth need to meet so often.

    There are, besides, three or four Commonwealths: Caribbean; Sub-Saharan Africa; Middle East to South East Asia; and the Pacific. Local groupings could meet more often.

    It should focus on democratic, cultural, judicial, professional and academic exchange, with a side order of trade promotion.

    Could also be used to caucus for various global positions eg WTO and security council nominations. India apparently is waking up to the fact it provides it with a global forum free of China.

    It could be more useful (to the U.K.) but we’d need to fund it properly - no one else will.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited April 2018
    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    rcs1000 said:

    The Singaporean Prime Minister has been reading my posts on the causes of trade deficits:

    Furthermore, the cause of a country’s trade deficit lies at home. A trade deficit is the result of a country consuming more than it produces, and it is neither caused nor cured by trade restrictions.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/singapores-prime-minister-nobody-wants-a-trade-war/2018/04/18/64d9fa30-431e-11e8-ad8f-27a8c409298b_story.html?utm_term=.1fcde6c3c365

    I think you said that purchasing an iPad with borrowed money adds more to UK GDP than the design and fabrication adds to the GDP of USA, Taiwan and China.

    Now if the UK had increased its savings rate enough to have had a trade balance (or even more a current account balance) of zero during the last two decades how much would that have knocked off UK GDP ?
  • Options

    BigG, the Alan Johnson story isn’t news at this stage. What he’s said was pretty much the clarification issued after TMay’s PMQs that made clear that the decision wasn’t a ministerial one (as opposed to the hostile environment policy). E.g: (From the link earlier on): Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency." This was said shortly after PMQs on Wednesday.

    It was right at the heart of Corbyn's and labours attack and now it has been admitted by Alan Johnson it was under labour it is dropped as an issue by labour and to their embarrassment
  • Options
    The_ApocalypseThe_Apocalypse Posts: 7,830

    BigG, the Alan Johnson story isn’t news at this stage. What he’s said was pretty much the clarification issued after TMay’s PMQs that made clear that the decision wasn’t a ministerial one (as opposed to the hostile environment policy). E.g: (From the link earlier on): Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency." This was said shortly after PMQs on Wednesday.

    It was right at the heart of Corbyn's and labours attack and now it has been admitted by Alan Johnson it was under labour it is dropped as an issue by labour and to their embarrassment
    It was a silly attack line that Corbyn used at PMQs, but the main thrust of Labour’s attack generally focuses on the hostile environment policy. Labour have already had their major embarrassment over this on Wednesday, and it was mainly limited to Wednesday afternoon. The evening news on Wednesday wasn’t bad for them with the exception of C4 news (and that was because of the antisemitism scandal). Right now it looks their latest attack centres on those ‘go home vans’ on (see Twitter and Corbyn’s account) and TMay’s involvement in that decision. And the reason why Labour have that info to attack with government with is largely down to Nick Timothy, whose defence of TMay led to reports which directly contradicted his account.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    Even though most members think it's a good idea?
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Forgive my pedantry, but if it’s twice a year it is biannually.
    Yes CR means biennially (sp.?)
    If it gets me off the hook, yes ;-)
    biennially is once every two years and biannually is twice a year
  • Options
    TheWhiteRabbitTheWhiteRabbit Posts: 12,388
    Floater said:
    we're missing a time axis. ten years ago, what was the equivalent %?
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,025

    rcs1000 said:

    The Singaporean Prime Minister has been reading my posts on the causes of trade deficits:

    Furthermore, the cause of a country’s trade deficit lies at home. A trade deficit is the result of a country consuming more than it produces, and it is neither caused nor cured by trade restrictions.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/singapores-prime-minister-nobody-wants-a-trade-war/2018/04/18/64d9fa30-431e-11e8-ad8f-27a8c409298b_story.html?utm_term=.1fcde6c3c365

    I think you said that purchasing an iPad with borrowed money adds more to UK GDP than the design and fabrication adds to the GDP of USA, Taiwan and China.

    Now if the UK had increased its savings rate enough to have had a trade balance (or even more a current account balance) of zero during the last two decades how much would that have knocked off UK GDP ?
    Interestingly, I'm doing a little video on that. If you don't mind, I'll send it to you ahead of time and get your feedback.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,025

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Serious about doing what?

    Promoting trade, development, investment, growth in human capital, business and economic links and coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles.

    A 6-month horizon is a useful horizon for initiatives, projects and reports. Also keeps the momentum going. Every 2 years is a bit token.
    Do you think Pakistan is particularly interested in "coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles"?
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    AndyJS said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    Even though most members think it's a good idea?
    It’s a club with no obligations that meets twice a year. It doesn’t have sufficient substance to qualify as a bad idea.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,129
    Floater said:
    Massive wow.

    "Two-thirds of millennials could not identify in the survey what Auschwitz was."
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,176
    Pincer movement by Brussels and British parliamentary oikophobes concerning Customs Union.
    Best to walk away and let the EU force Varadkar to erect a hard border to protect EU's feather-bedded businesses.
  • Options

    BigG, the Alan Johnson story isn’t news at this stage. What he’s said was pretty much the clarification issued after TMay’s PMQs that made clear that the decision wasn’t a ministerial one (as opposed to the hostile environment policy). E.g: (From the link earlier on): Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency." This was said shortly after PMQs on Wednesday.

    It was right at the heart of Corbyn's and labours attack and now it has been admitted by Alan Johnson it was under labour it is dropped as an issue by labour and to their embarrassment
    It was a silly attack line that Corbyn used at PMQs, but the main thrust of Labour’s attack generally focuses on the hostile environment policy. Labour have already had their major embarrassment over this on Wednesday, and it was mainly limited to Wednesday afternoon. The evening news on Wednesday wasn’t bad for them with the exception of C4 news (and that was because of the antisemitism scandal). Right now it looks their latest attack centres on those ‘go home vans’ on (see Twitter and Corbyn’s account) and TMay’s involvement in that decision. And the reason why Labour have that info to attack with government with is largely down to Nick Timothy, whose defence of TMay led to reports which directly contradicted his account.
    In all of this the way it is now handled is key and tonights reports are promising with residency already granted to some on the help line.

    The wider issue of dealing with illegal immigration is generally popular and labour first used the 'hostile' attitude word before the conservatives came into power. Also Lord Kerslake reference to Nazi Germany was crass but seems that is a regular theme with labour politicians
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    RoyalBlue said:

    AndyJS said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    Even though most members think it's a good idea?
    It’s a club with no obligations that meets twice a year. It doesn’t have sufficient substance to qualify as a bad idea.
    Once every two years (which strengthens your already valid point).
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    The Singaporean Prime Minister has been reading my posts on the causes of trade deficits:

    Furthermore, the cause of a country’s trade deficit lies at home. A trade deficit is the result of a country consuming more than it produces, and it is neither caused nor cured by trade restrictions.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/singapores-prime-minister-nobody-wants-a-trade-war/2018/04/18/64d9fa30-431e-11e8-ad8f-27a8c409298b_story.html?utm_term=.1fcde6c3c365

    I think you said that purchasing an iPad with borrowed money adds more to UK GDP than the design and fabrication adds to the GDP of USA, Taiwan and China.

    Now if the UK had increased its savings rate enough to have had a trade balance (or even more a current account balance) of zero during the last two decades how much would that have knocked off UK GDP ?
    Interestingly, I'm doing a little video on that. If you don't mind, I'll send it to you ahead of time and get your feedback.
    I'm honoured !!!

    Two things I'm curious about are when the cult of GDP became so dominant and when the media stopped reporting the trade figures on the TV news.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Serious about doing what?

    Promoting trade, development, investment, growth in human capital, business and economic links and coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles.

    A 6-month horizon is a useful horizon for initiatives, projects and reports. Also keeps the momentum going. Every 2 years is a bit token.
    Do you think Pakistan is particularly interested in "coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles"?
    I imagine its particularly interested in tapping up British ministers for some overseas aid money.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Canadian polls all over the place, from a 7 point Tory lead to a 12 point Liberal one.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_in_the_43rd_Canadian_federal_election
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    AndyJS said:
    I would have thought that any British citizens who have been illegally deported to the third world by the Home Office will have a legal right to compensation.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919

    Sandpit said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Forgive my pedantry, but if it’s twice a year it is biannually.
    Yes CR means biennially (sp.?)
    If it gets me off the hook, yes ;-)
    biennially is once every two years and biannually is twice a year
    Is the correct answer! The Commonwealth heads of government meet biennially, rather than biannually.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,862
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Serious about doing what?

    Promoting trade, development, investment, growth in human capital, business and economic links and coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles.

    A 6-month horizon is a useful horizon for initiatives, projects and reports. Also keeps the momentum going. Every 2 years is a bit token.
    Do you think Pakistan is particularly interested in "coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles"?
    Through bi-lateral professional and academic exchange, why not? And actually (to continue playing devils advocate) how else to support democracy in Pakistan?
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395

    AndyJS said:
    I would have thought that any British citizens who have been illegally deported to the third world by the Home Office will have a legal right to compensation.
    Who pays for the compensation? The British taxpayer? It ought to be the people responsible for the mess, whoever they are.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796
    BBC News leading on the death of a 28yo Swedish DJ. I hope similar news obscures the BBC Director hung-drawn-and-quartered story in a couple of days time.

    Still, I imagine that ten-year-old estate agents the world over are happy with their likely state funerals.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,097

    UKIP about to go full on Le Pen?

    The second EU referendum is shaping up to be our Macron v Le Pen election.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,053
    Omnium said:

    BBC News leading on the death of a 28yo Swedish DJ. I hope similar news obscures the BBC Director hung-drawn-and-quartered story in a couple of days time.

    Still, I imagine that ten-year-old estate agents the world over are happy with their likely state funerals.

    Yes, It's a really odd story for them to lead with.

    And #1 in 'Most watched' is a power station close to my heart:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-derbyshire-43823662/willington-power-station-still-towers-20-years-after-closing

    I cannot believe that many people are interested in Willington A&B. ...
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:
    I would have thought that any British citizens who have been illegally deported to the third world by the Home Office will have a legal right to compensation.
    Who pays for the compensation? The British taxpayer? It ought to be the people responsible for the mess, whoever they are.
    That's about as likely as Olly Letwin reimbursing the taxpayer for the money given to Kids Company.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969
    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.
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    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796

    Omnium said:

    BBC News leading on the death of a 28yo Swedish DJ. I hope similar news obscures the BBC Director hung-drawn-and-quartered story in a couple of days time.

    Still, I imagine that ten-year-old estate agents the world over are happy with their likely state funerals.

    Yes, It's a really odd story for them to lead with.

    And #1 in 'Most watched' is a power station close to my heart:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/uk-england-derbyshire-43823662/willington-power-station-still-towers-20-years-after-closing

    I cannot believe that many people are interested in Willington A&B. ...
    I'm all in for the box set over spending 10 seconds reading about this Swedish bloke.
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    rcs1000 said:

    The Singaporean Prime Minister has been reading my posts on the causes of trade deficits:

    Furthermore, the cause of a country’s trade deficit lies at home. A trade deficit is the result of a country consuming more than it produces, and it is neither caused nor cured by trade restrictions.

    https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/singapores-prime-minister-nobody-wants-a-trade-war/2018/04/18/64d9fa30-431e-11e8-ad8f-27a8c409298b_story.html?utm_term=.1fcde6c3c365

    Maybe, he [ or you ] could have added that a country's exports ultimately depend on quality and value for money.

    Re: USA and China: China had reduced its trade surplus with the RoW from about 10% of GDP to under 2% in the last few years.

    Why didn't the USA manage to export more to China ? Other countries must have done. The USA either exports military or technology/software kind of stuff which they do not want to export to China for understandable reasons. OR basic agricultural products like low population high yielding countries.

    It will be interesting to see how China deals with Qualcomm buying NXP.

    Basically, Trump is trying to bully them and Japan into buying US produce when in a free market very few will buy them.
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    Usually, it implies people are voluntarily unemployed. Like moving locations, jobs etc.
  • Options
    surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    UKIP about to go full on Le Pen?

    The second EU referendum is shaping up to be our Macron v Le Pen election.
    Please don't bring it up. HYUFD is still waiting for the first round results.
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    If the Commonwealth wants to be more serious it needs to meet as regularly as the European Council.

    I’d suggest twice yearly, not biannually.
    Serious about doing what?

    Promoting trade, development, investment, growth in human capital, business and economic links and coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles.

    A 6-month horizon is a useful horizon for initiatives, projects and reports. Also keeps the momentum going. Every 2 years is a bit token.
    Do you think Pakistan is particularly interested in "coordinating advancement of liberal democratic principles"?
    Through bi-lateral professional and academic exchange, why not? And actually (to continue playing devils advocate) how else to support democracy in Pakistan?
    Pakistan is technically a democracy! Well, sort of.
  • Options
    OmniumOmnium Posts: 9,796

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    The point at which god, if unemployed, fails to get a job straight away. However practically that's not measureable - so the point at which a very talented person fails to get a job offer in a day. (you'd have to tune 'very talented' and 'a day')
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    AndyJS said:

    AndyJS said:
    I would have thought that any British citizens who have been illegally deported to the third world by the Home Office will have a legal right to compensation.
    Who pays for the compensation? The British taxpayer? It ought to be the people responsible for the mess, whoever they are.

    BigG, the Alan Johnson story isn’t news at this stage. What he’s said was pretty much the clarification issued after TMay’s PMQs that made clear that the decision wasn’t a ministerial one (as opposed to the hostile environment policy). E.g: (From the link earlier on): Asked if he knew about the 2009 decision, he told the BBC: "No, it was an administrative decision taken by the UK Border Agency." This was said shortly after PMQs on Wednesday.

    It was right at the heart of Corbyn's and labours attack and now it has been admitted by Alan Johnson it was under labour it is dropped as an issue by labour and to their embarrassment
    It was a silly attack line that Corbyn used at PMQs, but the main thrust of Labour’s attack generally focuses on the hostile environment policy. Labour have already had their major embarrassment over this on Wednesday, and it was mainly limited to Wednesday afternoon. The evening news on Wednesday wasn’t bad for them with the exception of C4 news (and that was because of the antisemitism scandal). Right now it looks their latest attack centres on those ‘go home vans’ on (see Twitter and Corbyn’s account) and TMay’s involvement in that decision. And the reason why Labour have that info to attack with government with is largely down to Nick Timothy, whose defence of TMay led to reports which directly contradicted his account.
    I think this could become a big problem for Theresa May. Every time the government detain or deport a longstanding resident with links to a Commonwealth country (which they are pretty much doing all the time) it is going to windrush revisited. I think attitudes to immigration have possibly changed post Brexit (ironic, given that nothing has yet changed!), and the hostile environment policy is very much a pre Brexit policy associated with Theresa May. Basically, the only way around this is to stop deporting law abiding people who have a credible claim to remain in the UK, even if they can't get the paperwork together.
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227
    geoffw said:

    Pincer movement by Brussels and British parliamentary oikophobes concerning Customs Union.
    Best to walk away and let the EU force Varadkar to erect a hard border to protect EU's feather-bedded businesses.

    And, lose Northern Ireland in 10 years.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I think 3% used to be regarded as effective zero unemployment on a national level although many local areas have had unemployment lower than that.

    There's always going to be some time between people losing their jobs and getting a new one plus a number of layabouts and unemployables.

    The lowest ONS recorded unemployment was 3.4% the autumn of 1973 ie just as the Barber Boom was ended by the Yom Kippur War.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms

    I think unemployment would have been even lower than that at some points in the 1950s and 1960s but that was a time of overmanning and a much restricted female workforce.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,436
    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969
    surby said:

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    Usually, it implies people are voluntarily unemployed. Like moving locations, jobs etc.
    To help with understanding what I am trying to ascertain; one of the arguments used against migration is the 'stealing our jobs' argument. Now I don't ascribe to that in the first place but I am wondering at what point we could reasonably say that unemployment is so low it is no longer a viable argument in any way.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 30,969

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I think 3% used to be regarded as effective zero unemployment on a national level although many local areas have had unemployment lower than that.

    There's always going to be some time between people losing their jobs and getting a new one plus a number of layabouts and unemployables.

    The lowest ONS recorded unemployment was 3.4% the autumn of 1973 ie just as the Barber Boom was ended by the Yom Kippur War.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms

    I think unemployment would have been even lower than that at some points in the 1950s and 1960s but that was a time of overmanning and a much restricted female workforce.
    Thanks Richard. Very much the sort of answer I was looking for in terms of information.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I seem to recall 5% as a figure of full employment, but can’t find a primary source for it. There will always be people moving around and between jobs.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919
    Omnium said:

    BBC News leading on the death of a 28yo Swedish DJ. I hope similar news obscures the BBC Director hung-drawn-and-quartered story in a couple of days time.

    Still, I imagine that ten-year-old estate agents the world over are happy with their likely state funerals.

    Time for the usual BBC over-the-top eulogy of someone they barely knew.

    Wake me up when it’s all over.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I think 3% used to be regarded as effective zero unemployment on a national level although many local areas have had unemployment lower than that.

    There's always going to be some time between people losing their jobs and getting a new one plus a number of layabouts and unemployables.

    The lowest ONS recorded unemployment was 3.4% the autumn of 1973 ie just as the Barber Boom was ended by the Yom Kippur War.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms

    I think unemployment would have been even lower than that at some points in the 1950s and 1960s but that was a time of overmanning and a much restricted female workforce.
    Thanks Richard. Very much the sort of answer I was looking for in terms of information.
    The ONS regional labour market stats has unemployment at 3.4% in both the South-East and South-West regions:

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peopleinwork/employmentandemployeetypes/bulletins/regionallabourmarket/april2018#summary-of-latest-regional-labour-market-statistics
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I think 3% used to be regarded as effective zero unemployment on a national level although many local areas have had unemployment lower than that.

    There's always going to be some time between people losing their jobs and getting a new one plus a number of layabouts and unemployables.

    The lowest ONS recorded unemployment was 3.4% the autumn of 1973 ie just as the Barber Boom was ended by the Yom Kippur War.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms

    I think unemployment would have been even lower than that at some points in the 1950s and 1960s but that was a time of overmanning and a much restricted female workforce.
    Thanks Richard. Very much the sort of answer I was looking for in terms of information.
    You might find this interesting - it gives unemployment by parliamentary constituency in January 2017:

    http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7868#fullreport

    The lowest are Stratford, Kenilworth, Hampshire NE, Cambridgeshire S and Henley (all affluent commuter areas) plus Westmoreland at 0.5% unemployment.

    By contrast Birmingham has 5 of the top 10 constituencies with the highest unemployment.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    Sure. But India and Pakistan actually hate each other in a way that - say - Germany and Greece do not.
    “Nuclear armed adversaries”

    For a moment there I thought you were referring to Britain and France!
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    Sandpit said:

    Omnium said:

    BBC News leading on the death of a 28yo Swedish DJ. I hope similar news obscures the BBC Director hung-drawn-and-quartered story in a couple of days time.

    Still, I imagine that ten-year-old estate agents the world over are happy with their likely state funerals.

    Time for the usual BBC over-the-top eulogy of someone they barely knew.

    Wake me up when it’s all over.
    The Cliff Richard ruling could be huge for the BBC, the broadcast and print media if the BBC loses.

    The reporting of the alleged behaviour of the BBC reporter is not a good look
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I think 3% used to be regarded as effective zero unemployment on a national level although many local areas have had unemployment lower than that.

    There's always going to be some time between people losing their jobs and getting a new one plus a number of layabouts and unemployables.

    The lowest ONS recorded unemployment was 3.4% the autumn of 1973 ie just as the Barber Boom was ended by the Yom Kippur War.

    https://www.ons.gov.uk/employmentandlabourmarket/peoplenotinwork/unemployment/timeseries/mgsx/lms

    I think unemployment would have been even lower than that at some points in the 1950s and 1960s but that was a time of overmanning and a much restricted female workforce.
    Thanks Richard. Very much the sort of answer I was looking for in terms of information.
    You might find this interesting - it gives unemployment by parliamentary constituency in January 2017:

    http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/CBP-7868#fullreport

    The lowest are Stratford, Kenilworth, Hampshire NE, Cambridgeshire S and Henley (all affluent commuter areas) plus Westmoreland at 0.5% unemployment.

    By contrast Birmingham has 5 of the top 10 constituencies with the highest unemployment.
    Those numbers are for the claimant count - they need to be doubled to get the approximate ILO unemployment rate.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I’d use NAIRU (non accelerating inflation rate of unemployment) which is defined - I think it’s around 3-4%
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,919

    Sandpit said:

    Omnium said:

    BBC News leading on the death of a 28yo Swedish DJ. I hope similar news obscures the BBC Director hung-drawn-and-quartered story in a couple of days time.

    Still, I imagine that ten-year-old estate agents the world over are happy with their likely state funerals.

    Time for the usual BBC over-the-top eulogy of someone they barely knew.

    Wake me up when it’s all over.
    The Cliff Richard ruling could be huge for the BBC, the broadcast and print media if the BBC loses.

    The reporting of the alleged behaviour of the BBC reporter is not a good look
    Completely, the BBC have chosen the worst possible test case, so instead of arguing for freedom of the press they’re trying to defend some of the shittiest behaviour seen by their journalists in years.

    Is this in front of a jury, or just a presiding judge? If the former I imagine they’re going to be in big trouble.

    (BTW, “wake me up when it’s all over” is a reference to a song by the deceased Swedish DJ, but it seems no-one got it - obviously @TSE isn’t here tonight!).
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    surbysurby Posts: 1,227

    surby said:

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    Usually, it implies people are voluntarily unemployed. Like moving locations, jobs etc.
    To help with understanding what I am trying to ascertain; one of the arguments used against migration is the 'stealing our jobs' argument. Now I don't ascribe to that in the first place but I am wondering at what point we could reasonably say that unemployment is so low it is no longer a viable argument in any way.
    Well, funnily enough, at the height of the East European immigration unemployment kept on falling. Partly because new households were being created, new borrowings, spending [ great for IKEA , I suppose ] and also services like hairdressers etc. etc.

    I think the "anger" was more because these immigrants kept wages lower than otherwise it might have been. Frankly, I have little sympathy. In London, a plumber could charge you over £100 !

    I was reading in the FT today an opposite problem. Japan is losing population by about 1000 a day ! Think about it, 360,000 a year net ! Who will pay the taxes ?

    But Japan is a r-country. They even hire private detectives if prospective in-laws have Korean blood !
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,097

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
    Surely more non-ex-British colonies joining would dilute the one thing they have in common? It will just be a talking shop with a sports tournament.
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610
    edited April 2018
    Man I love and miss London in the sunshine.

    Good news though, I should be back permanently in September! Assuming all goes to plan.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,097
    MaxPB said:

    Man I love and miss London in the sunshine.

    Good news though, I should be back permanently in September! Assuming all goes to plan.

    Well done. I knew you wouldn't want to be outside the EU for long. :)
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    MaxPBMaxPB Posts: 37,610

    MaxPB said:

    Man I love and miss London in the sunshine.

    Good news though, I should be back permanently in September! Assuming all goes to plan.

    Well done. I knew you wouldn't want to be outside the EU for long. :)
    It will only be six months until I'm out of it again.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,129
    Charles said:

    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    53 Commonwealth Countries of 1.5 billion peoples puts the EU half billion as much less importance in the context of going global

    Although the two largest Commonwealth countries are nuclear armed adversaries, so I wouldn't overdo the Commonwealth as a cohesive block.
    Agree but I would hardly concur the EU are a cohesive block either
    Sure. But India and Pakistan actually hate each other in a way that - say - Germany and Greece do not.
    “Nuclear armed adversaries”

    For a moment there I thought you were referring to Britain and France!
    Or any of them and Vince Cable.

    Arf!
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336
    Charles said:

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I’d use NAIRU (non accelerating inflation rate of unemployment) which is defined - I think it’s around 3-4%
    Historically that has been so in which event we should have seen increasing wage pressure driving up inflation over the last year. Instead we have had wages falling in real terms for more than 12 months.

    Conventional economics seems to me to be increasingly unconnected with the real world. It was built on economies that were very substantially sealed units. They did provide for exports and imports but the world of freedom of movement, no currency limits, free movement of capital and exports and imports being very high percentages of GDP is millions of miles away from what they were designed for. Who knows how low unemployment can go without inflation in an economy where the supply of labour is so elastic?

    I suspect other constraints such as housing will be what calls time on the employment miracle. It really doesn’t look like wages will.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
    How many Commonwealth countries say homosexuality is illegal? Was it 37? What do we have in common exactly?
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
    How many Commonwealth countries say homosexuality is illegal? Was it 37? What do we have in common exactly?
    In fairness a lot of that is inherited from British Colonial law - take South East Asia - ex-British Singapore and Malaysia maintain colonial era statutes, neighbouring Indonesia (Dutch) never had them in the first place (though unfortunately in Aceh newly has some).
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
    How many Commonwealth countries say homosexuality is illegal? Was it 37? What do we have in common exactly?
    In fairness a lot of that is inherited from British Colonial law - take South East Asia - ex-British Singapore and Malaysia maintain colonial era statutes, neighbouring Indonesia (Dutch) never had them in the first place (though unfortunately in Aceh newly has some).
    Seriously? So because our laws said this 50+ years ago that let’s them off the hook in 2018?
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,193
    Just catching up on last night's Question Time. Not too many Chesterfield accents in the audience.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,859
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
    How many Commonwealth countries say homosexuality is illegal? Was it 37? What do we have in common exactly?
    In fairness a lot of that is inherited from British Colonial law - take South East Asia - ex-British Singapore and Malaysia maintain colonial era statutes, neighbouring Indonesia (Dutch) never had them in the first place (though unfortunately in Aceh newly has some).
    Seriously? So because our laws said this 50+ years ago that let’s them off the hook in 2018?
    Indeed. That'd be like saying if we kept homosexuality illegal, well, it's grandfathered in, what can you do?

    I don't have any antipathy for the Commonwealth as a whole though.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,176
    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    Serious question, if off topic at the moment, but thinking forward for a number of future discussions.

    Assuming that zero unemployment does not actually mean absolutely no one out of work, at what point does the panel think that we have effective zero unemployment? Is this defined anywhere?

    I do not in any way mean this as a leading question. I am genuinely interested in what people think because of course it has implications for all sorts of things, not least the whole argument over immigration.

    I’d use NAIRU (non accelerating inflation rate of unemployment) which is defined - I think it’s around 3-4%
    Historically that has been so in which event we should have seen increasing wage pressure driving up inflation over the last year. Instead we have had wages falling in real terms for more than 12 months.

    Conventional economics seems to me to be increasingly unconnected with the real world. It was built on economies that were very substantially sealed units. They did provide for exports and imports but the world of freedom of movement, no currency limits, free movement of capital and exports and imports being very high percentages of GDP is millions of miles away from what they were designed for. Who knows how low unemployment can go without inflation in an economy where the supply of labour is so elastic?

    I suspect other constraints such as housing will be what calls time on the employment miracle. It really doesn’t look like wages will.
    On the conventional criteria it would seem that the natural rate of unemployment is actually lower than the actual rate, and we find that difficult to take in because the actual rate is actually lower than anytime since the early 1970s.

    I don't recognise the mismatch you describe in your second para. What you call conventional economics seems to refer to autarkies. It is true that some US-based literature was framed in terms of a closed economy. But there was also plenty of mainstream open economy macroeconomics incorporating floating currencies, inflationary expectations and so on. I think the question should be, why is the supply of labour so apparently elastic?
    You call it an employment miracle, which has echos of the post-war German miracle under Ludwig Erhard. The explanation for that was the combination of (i) refugees from East Germany, (ii) Gastarbeiter from Portugal, Greece and Turkey, (iii) large scale movement from rural to urban occupations, and (iv) increased female participation in the labour force.
    Part of the answer for us now is no doubt immigration. A new factor now is the "gig economy". Both of those make the supply of labour more elastic, but I agree it does not seem enough to explain this new phenomenon.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    edited April 2018
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
    How many Commonwealth countries say homosexuality is illegal? Was it 37? What do we have in common exactly?
    In fairness a lot of that is inherited from British Colonial law - take South East Asia - ex-British Singapore and Malaysia maintain colonial era statutes, neighbouring Indonesia (Dutch) never had them in the first place (though unfortunately in Aceh newly has some).
    Seriously? So because our laws said this 50+ years ago that let’s them off the hook in 2018?
    Not “let them off the hook” but perhaps be a little more circumspect in criticising them for something we imposed upon them in the first place.....possibly even admitting it’s source rather than pretending moral superiority....
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    Breaking

    Donald Trump to visit UK this summer
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,724
    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,724

    Breaking

    Donald Trump to visit UK this summer

    Ooh! that should be fun!
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,436
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    I think that's right. But what would anyone hope to transform it in to? It isn't doing any harm being as it is.
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    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    And there was a lot of talk by TM about addressing climate change, education, and eliminating malaria

    She seems to have been received well by the leaders and of course, the UK host the organisation for the next two years
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    And for India it gives it a forum where it can lead (shortly to overtake the U.K. as largest economy) without China present....
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    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486

    Breaking

    Donald Trump to visit UK this summer

    Nobody from Stop the War will be protesting because they only try to influence their own government.


    End sarcasm mode
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    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307
    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    I guess that is the reason why countries would want to join. Rwanda joined in 2009, although they were never ruled by the British, as far as I am aware.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    Sun decides to rain on Charles’ parade:

    https://twitter.com/BBCNews/status/987437748196990977?s=20
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,436

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
    Surely more non-ex-British colonies joining would dilute the one thing they have in common? It will just be a talking shop with a sports tournament.
    Virtually all of them are. But I can see why you feel threatened by it.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,436
    DavidL said:

    DavidL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    The Commonwealth is a phantasm. The original mistake was to allow India to remain a member, despite becoming a republic. It was a great example of our establishment refusing to recognise that granting independence to the colonies did not mean the conversion of British power into influence, but in reality its utter collapse. Other delusions followed, most noticeably granting the privileges of citizenship to people from states that had rejected meaningful association and cooperation with the U.K.

    It is fantastical nonsense, and it should be wound up when the Queen dies.

    I couldn’t disagree more with this.

    I think it’s a powerful network of a family of nations that share much in common that will become of increasing relevance and importance as time goes on, which explains why non-ex British colonies are interested in joining.
    How many Commonwealth countries say homosexuality is illegal? Was it 37? What do we have in common exactly?
    In fairness a lot of that is inherited from British Colonial law - take South East Asia - ex-British Singapore and Malaysia maintain colonial era statutes, neighbouring Indonesia (Dutch) never had them in the first place (though unfortunately in Aceh newly has some).
    Seriously? So because our laws said this 50+ years ago that let’s them off the hook in 2018?
    No, but nor is it an excuse for dissolving the Commonwealth or giving up British influence in it. Old laws about The Gays from decades ago is a pretty weak argument. We’ve only had gay marriage legal here for just over 4 years.

    It’s a huge force for good overall and greatly to our, and the world’s, benefit.

    The alternative is they all become socio-cultural vassals of China.
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,724
    nielh said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    I guess that is the reason why countries would want to join. Rwanda joined in 2009, although they were never ruled by the British, as far as I am aware.
    Mozambique is also now a member.

    It doesmean that they have the right to vote here, while EU nationals do not.
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    RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    nielh said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    I guess that is the reason why countries would want to join. Rwanda joined in 2009, although they were never ruled by the British, as far as I am aware.
    Wasn't that, at least partly, about snubbing the french?
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    FoxyFoxy Posts: 44,724

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    And there was a lot of talk by TM about addressing climate change, education, and eliminating malaria

    She seems to have been received well by the leaders and of course, the UK host the organisation for the next two years
    She does have the negative Midas touch, turning everything to base lead! Windrush dominating the news al week, with TM in the frame.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,859
    nielh said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    I think that's right. But what would anyone hope to transform it in to? It isn't doing any harm being as it is.
    That's generally my take. At its best maybe it can do something useful, and even if it doesn't, I'm hard pressed to think why it is a problem, so let everyone have it - clearly for the moment the dozens of members see something worthwhile about it, it's not like anyone is forced to join the damn thing.
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,336
    geoffw said:

    DavidL said:

    Charles said:

    .

    3-4%
    Historically that has been so in which event we should have seen increasing wage pressure driving up inflation over the last year. Instead we have had wages falling in real terms for more than 12 months.

    Conventional economics seems to me to be increasingly unconnected with the real world. It was built on economies that were very substantially sealed units. They did provide for exports and imports but the world of freedom of movement, no currency limits, free movement of capital and exports and imports being very high percentages of GDP is millions of miles away from what they were designed for. Who knows how low unemployment can go without inflation in an economy where the supply of labour is so elastic?

    I suspect other constraints such as housing will be what calls time on the employment miracle. It really doesn’t look like wages will.
    On the conventional criteria it would seem that the natural rate of unemployment is actually lower than the actual rate, and we find that difficult to take in because the actual rate is actually lower than anytime since the early 1970s.

    I don't recognise the mismatch you describe in your second para. What you call conventional economics seems to refer to autarkies. It is true that some US-based literature was framed in terms of a closed economy. But there was also plenty of mainstream open economy macroeconomics incorporating floating currencies, inflationary expectations and so on. I think the question should be, why is the supply of labour so apparently elastic?
    You call it an employment miracle, which has echos of the post-war German miracle under Ludwig Erhard. The explanation for that was the combination of (i) refugees from East Germany, (ii) Gastarbeiter from Portugal, Greece and Turkey, (iii) large scale movement from rural to urban occupations, and (iv) increased female participation in the labour force.
    Part of the answer for us now is no doubt immigration. A new factor now is the "gig economy". Both of those make the supply of labour more elastic, but I agree it does not seem enough to explain this new phenomenon.
    I wasn’t talking about autarkies but about economies where the rules of cause and effect break down. Labour is only 1 example. How does an increase in investment push up the cost of borrowing when the supply of capital is infinite? How does a government increase domestic demand when so much can leak away into imports? When goods are increasingly virtual how do you create a shortage or drive up prices? The conventional tools to control an economy are increasingly redundant.
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    RogerRoger Posts: 18,892
    Another five people shot dead by Israelis in Gaza. One aged 15. That's now 35 without a single Israeli injury. You'd be forgiven for thinking Israelis don't give a shit about Palestinian lives.
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,783
    https://www.ft.com/content/7ef540a0-44b3-11e8-803a-295c97e6fd0b

    The row is significant because it suggests that the EU is not willing to forge a trusting security relationship with the UK after Brexit, in spite of an “unconditional” offer from Theresa May of a defence and security pact.

    What price “unconditional guarantees” on citizens rights?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,859
    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    And there was a lot of talk by TM about addressing climate change, education, and eliminating malaria

    She seems to have been received well by the leaders and of course, the UK host the organisation for the next two years
    She does have the negative Midas touch, turning everything to base lead! Windrush dominating the news al week, with TM in the frame.
    A rather silly attempt at an analogy given, until this Windrush business, May had had a couple of uncommonly good months by her standards since the GE, showing not everything she touches turns to base lead. On Windrush, given the scale of the problems I don't think any leader could have avoided it running in the cycle for at least a week, the test for May is if it keeps on running, drip feeds of what are sure to be some more emotional negative stories, and whether she can get to grips with things, if she even wants to.
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    Foxy said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    And there was a lot of talk by TM about addressing climate change, education, and eliminating malaria

    She seems to have been received well by the leaders and of course, the UK host the organisation for the next two years
    She does have the negative Midas touch, turning everything to base lead! Windrush dominating the news al week, with TM in the frame.
    Yes but I doubt it has made much difference just as Corbyn's running out of the debate on anti semitic attitudes in his party, as his female mps sob in distress
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,859
    Rhubarb said:

    nielh said:

    Foxy said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The succession after HMQ offers a once in a lifetime opportunity to rejig the Commonwealth into anything other than a piece of ceremonial fustian. The acceptance of Charlie boy nem. con. as next in line suggests that there is not even a minority faction within the membership with any interest in transforming it into something useful.

    The Commonwealths only real links are historical with the British, and that not always salubrious. It is not a trading block.

    Mind you, a social talking shop has its merits, for some of these countries it is their only moment on an international stage.
    I guess that is the reason why countries would want to join. Rwanda joined in 2009, although they were never ruled by the British, as far as I am aware.
    Wasn't that, at least partly, about snubbing the french?
    That shows they have uncommonly good sense and good values.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,859

    Breaking

    Donald Trump to visit UK this summer

    Ah good, we can restart the soul searching comments about how this shows what a husk of a country we are, how we are aligning with this monster and the world will judge us for that. Not sure how Macron has survived as long as he has, given he has hosted Trump already.
This discussion has been closed.