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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A new furrow. The changing nature of work and what that might mean for the future

Imagine, if you will, that you are a horse. Take that extra step and imagine that you’re a horse capable of reasoning, a Houyhnhnm if you will. As you stand in your stable at the end of the day, imagine you are reflecting on your species’ relationship with humans. It got off to a poor start, with humans seeing you as a food source. Fortunately, humans in general saw greater possibilities in you, learning that you could be a far greater source of power than they could manage on their own.

Read the full story here

FrancisUrquhart

Australia captain Steve Smith has been banned for one match and fined his entire match fee by the ICC after a ball-tampering incident in the third Test against South Africa.

Bancroft was fined 75% of his match fee and given three demerit points.

http://www.bbc.com/sport/cricket/43531491

That will learn 'em, NOT. It is the equivalent of being put on the naughty step by Labour for dodgy Facebook posts.

Sandpit

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

CarlottaVance

Second! Like Remain!

CarlottaVance

On topic - fascinating thread - what's the old saw about the future already being with us, just unevenly distributed?

OldKingCole

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

I wonder if the Aussie board will be tougher. I can hear the Barmy Army singing about it now!

FrancisUrquhart

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

You can get a harsher punishment for sledging...Sir sir he called me a naughty word, that's two game ban....Sir sir he is out and out cheating, 75% match fee fine.

OldKingCole

FrancisUrquhart said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

You can get a harsher punishment for sledging...Sir sir he called me a naughty word, that's two game ban....Sir sir he is out and out cheating, 75% match fee fine.

More fun watching the Afghans doing over the Windies!

Foxy

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

TheJezziah

Interesting article, enjoyed reading it.

It is hard to imagine the current system would hold with a revolution in robots taking over jobs and not enough jobs replacing them. Unless a sufficient enough number were winners from the change then democratic governments would get voted out. I think even authoritarian governments would struggle unless they shared some of the proceeds.

FrancisUrquhart

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

Things like lawyers are ripe for the rise of the machines to take their jobs.

JosiasJessop

Very interesting threader, thanks Alastair.

I'm of the view that we're not yet at a tip-over point where more jobs are lost to new tech than are gained from applications of that new tech. In fact, IMV it'll take either a catastrophe - e.g. a solar storm or EMP event - or true AI for it to happen. And I'm a good deal more bearish than many on here about the future prospects of AI.

As an aside, after the war my dad was taught to plough both with horses and with a tractor. He is the last generation for which horse-ploughing would have been seen as a 'useful' skill. He also remembers steam-ploughs - a steam engine at each end of a field, with a cable between the two pulling the plough, although that was a dying craft even when he was a child.

The rate of change has been massive. How will I explain to my three-year old that TV's used to be big boxes with tiny screens, and the state-of-the-art was black and white?

FrancisUrquhart

JosiasJessop said:

Very interesting threader, thanks Alastair.

I'm of the view that we're not yet at a tip-over point where more jobs are lost to new tech than are gained from applications of that new tech. In fact, IMV it'll take either a catastrophe - e.g. a solar storm or EMP event - or true AI for it to happen. And I'm a good deal more bearish than many on here about the future prospects of AI.

As an aside, after the war my dad was taught to plough both with horses and with a tractor. He is the last generation for which horse-ploughing would have been seen as a 'useful' skill. He also remembers steam-ploughs - a steam engine at each end of a field, with a cable between the two pulling the plough, although that was a dying craft even when he was a child.

The rate of change has been massive. How will I explain to my three-year old that TV's used to be big boxes with tiny screens, and the state-of-the-art was black and white?

I am much more in the camp that ML / AI will assist in jobs rather than widespread eradication e.g. more and more ML will process medical scans / test results and present information to consultants.

ydoethur

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

It is exactly the punishment Faf du Plessis got (twice) for the same offence, and harsher than the one Atherton was given in 1994. Whether those punishments are harsh enough is another question. Also, what's pretty extraordinary is the level of premeditated conspiracy and the way the most junior (and let's face it, least capable) member of the team did it rather than the captain or senior bowler.

At the same time, the way he's been sacked mid-match is so far as I can find totally unprecedented. The nearest parallel would be when Ben Smith resigned as captain of Worcestershire mid match a few years ago (without checking, 2004?).

However, every cloud has a silver lining. Let's feast on Schadenfreude with some awesome puns:

Australia have shown they pay no heed to Warnerings about their conduct.

Their senior players are clearly Lyon about what they knew.

There was camera on Bancroft and this has led them to um Marsh.

Australia are going to need some serious Paine to get over this.

CarlottaVance

JosiasJessop said:

Very interesting threader, thanks Alastair.
The rate of change has been massive. How will I explain to my three-year old that TV's used to be big boxes with tiny screens, and the state-of-the-art was black and white?

I remember my father showing me his home assembled Sinclair Scientific calculator saying "one day these will be as cheap as transistor radios" - "old fool" thought I (at the time they were ten times the price. . )

JosiasJessop

FrancisUrquhart said:

JosiasJessop said:

Very interesting threader, thanks Alastair.

I'm of the view that we're not yet at a tip-over point where more jobs are lost to new tech than are gained from applications of that new tech. In fact, IMV it'll take either a catastrophe - e.g. a solar storm or EMP event - or true AI for it to happen. And I'm a good deal more bearish than many on here about the future prospects of AI.

As an aside, after the war my dad was taught to plough both with horses and with a tractor. He is the last generation for which horse-ploughing would have been seen as a 'useful' skill. He also remembers steam-ploughs - a steam engine at each end of a field, with a cable between the two pulling the plough, although that was a dying craft even when he was a child.

The rate of change has been massive. How will I explain to my three-year old that TV's used to be big boxes with tiny screens, and the state-of-the-art was black and white?

I am much more in the camp that ML / AI will assist in jobs rather than widespread eradication e.g. more and more ML will process medical scans / test results and present information to consultants.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's more people like SeanT who witter on about all lorry drivers being out of work in ten years (as it must have been a couple of years ago, he's got eight years left).

One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing. I'm incredibly bullish (*) on it, and good multi-material 3D printing that is cheap enough, put together with good designs, could be truly transformative.

(*) No, that's not bullsh*t.

FF43

Thought provoking article. It just struck me that the world probably is heading towards a smaller more sustainable population. This is seen as a problem with aging populations but once the baby boom generation (born before 1980 in world terms) dies off, it could be a solution. But there.will be an uncomfortable period of thirty or so years to get through first.

Theuniondivvie

FrancisUrquhart said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

Things like lawyers are ripe for the rise of the machines to take their jobs.

Not very kind to call lawyers 'things'.

JosiasJessop

CarlottaVance said:

JosiasJessop said:

Very interesting threader, thanks Alastair.
The rate of change has been massive. How will I explain to my three-year old that TV's used to be big boxes with tiny screens, and the state-of-the-art was black and white?

I remember my father showing me his home assembled Sinclair Scientific calculator saying "one day these will be as cheap as transistor radios" - "old fool" thought I (at the time they were ten times the price. . )

I worked with Jim Westwood:
https://www.theregister.co.uk/2011/11/15/heroes_of_tech_jim_westwood

A truly lovely and great chap.

viewcode

CarlottaVance said:

On topic - fascinating thread - what's the old saw about the future already being with us, just unevenly distributed?

William Gibson. I didn't even have to google it.

https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/William_Gibson
https://quoteinvestigator.com/2012/01/24/future-has-arrived/

ydoethur

'Imagine, if you will, that you are a horse. Take that extra step and imagine that you’re a horse capable of reasoning, a Houyhnhnm if you will. As you stand in your stable at the end of the day, imagine you are reflecting on your species’ relationship with humans. It got off to a poor start, with humans seeing you as a food source.'

Neigh, neigh and thrice neigh!

More seriously, interesting article. A friend of mine wrote an MA thesis on horse power in the late nineteenth century and actually suitable draught animals were much rarer than most people realised in this country by 191. There was a panic that those pesky Germans were buying them up to cripple the British army's supply lines, but really it was just because Britain had such a dense railway network that horses were not needed for carting any more. 75% of all horses used by the British army in World War One consequently came from Ireland, which of course did not have such a good railway network.

One factor I note you don't account for is food supplies. Without wishing to sound like Thomas Malthus, what do you think the impact of water shortages, population growth and wealth imbalances will have on food security, and what implications do you foresee from that?

ydoethur

And Warner screws over Bancroft again in truly Boycottian style.

Not that Bancroft is Test standard, but Warner really is a piece of work isn't he? Can't believe he was seen as a possible captain until this morning.

FrancisUrquhart

Theuniondivvie said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

Things like lawyers are ripe for the rise of the machines to take their jobs.

Not very kind to call lawyers 'things'.

I have called them a lot worse in the past.

Theuniondivvie

A red letter day, I agree with Willie.

https://twitter.com/willie_rennie/status/977909097055096833

viewcode

JosiasJessop said:

One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing.

Knock yourself out. A 2018 review of 13 3d printers. Includes prices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IE6hSQu4lI

Jonathan

Morlocks and Eloi

Elliot

The difference between horses and humans is precisely that mentioned in the article. Humans are capable of reasoning and training themselves in different fields in a way horses are not. There remains plenty of tasks machines cannot do and won't be able to do in the forseeable future, particularly managerial, social and non-repeatable ones. As the automated tasks are done by machines, output and income will go up to pay for more of the non-automated ones.

Mass unemployment won't be the problem. Greater inequality due to the owners of machines accumulating more of the capital is.

Richard_Tyndall

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

JosiasJessop

viewcode said:

JosiasJessop said:

One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing.

Knock yourself out. A 2018 review of 13 3d printers. Includes prices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IE6hSQu4lI

Thanks. I've robustly avoided buying one as it would be too much of a time sink. That, and the fact that I'm cr@p at design.

But there will be a point where capability and price will meet to make the tech truly transformative. Want a new toy for a children's party. Don't go to Toys R Us (*) or Amazon, but just download the designs and print one.

We're not there yet, and won't be for many years, but we will. But even this may end up increasing the number of jobs rather than decreasing it.

(*) Ooops

ydoethur

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

Under the rules, it doesn't even automatically carry that - Bancroft hasn't been banned although it would be surprising if he wasn't dropped. They seem to have jumped on Smith quickly because of the conspiracy element.

FrancisUrquhart

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

So rabada got 2 matches for bumping into a batsman, stokes got one match for saying naughty words, but outright cheating only gets you 75% of your match fee...something very wrong with the rules.

ydoethur

And ex, possibly current, captain Steve Smith is now at the crease against Kagiso Rabada. World popcorn prices have just spiked.

ydoethur

FrancisUrquhart said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

So rabada got 2 matches for bumping into a batsman, stokes got one match for saying naughty words, but outright cheating only gets you 75% of your match fee...something very wrong with the rules.

Rabada was threatened with a two match ban for accumulating multiple demerit points Ina two year window. He was also - wrongly - in effect accused of assault which is a fairly serious matter.

I agree however that this is an extraordinary and exceptional case. I don't see how Smith can remain captain or how any member of the current side can credibly replace him.

kle4

FrancisUrquhart said:

What a total non-apology,

“I’m very, very sorry that people feel hurt by this and that’s why I think it’s right that Jeremy has expressed regret for it,” Watson told the BBC’s Andrew Marr Show.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2018/mar/25/senior-labour-figures-defend-corbyn-row-antisemitic-mural

Yes, one of the classics of the genre

http://www.basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2007/2/25/how-to-apologize-without-accepting-any-blame.html

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

Indeed. Suspension for several games (rather than a time period, in which they might not play that many games) would seem reasonable. Something has to recognise the difference in someone making a stupid call in the heat of the moment (which is still wrong) to an organised attempt to cheat, followed by an insincere apology (and even that, from Bancroft, contained phrases expressing 'I was nervous about it because there are hundreds of cameras around. Unfortunately I was in the wrong place at the wrong time' that is to say, regret at being caught, and Smith called it a mistake, even as they would have clearly been happy had they succeeded, and therefore done again).

NickPalmer

What a great article - arresting, witty, thought-provoking.

I'd add that if the beneficiaries of automation are not only limited in number but largely able to avoid paying tax like everyone else, then left-wing populism is appropriate, and if it failed then revolution would loom on the horizon.

RoyalBlue

Wonderful header @AlastairMeeks - thank you.

If technological unemployment does grow precipitously, so will mental health problems. We have not evolved to be idle.

ydoethur

And three go in eight balls. This isn't the Siege of Johannesburg Mark II (although it wasn't dirt in Bancroft's pocket)!

Tim Paine may be about to have the shortest ever stint as official Test captain of Australia. Their batting is so poor they may not make it to the close, meaning (unless he captains in the next match) he will have been captain for one day.

kle4

I work in administration, really there's no reason a robot couldn't do my job, thankfully imperfect humans trying to do things and get at information or rules at the moment require someone like me be there to take them through things.

geoffw

Jacob Schmoolker's ('Invention and Economic Growth', 1966) study of patented inventions and improvements to horseshoes in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries demonstrated conclusively the importance of the size of the perceived market for the amount of inventive activity and innovation, and therefore that technological change was to a substantial degree endogenous to the economy rather than a deus ex machina for economic growth.

Sandpit

FrancisUrquhart said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

Things like lawyers are ripe for the rise of the machines to take their jobs.

The tipping point is going to be when the computers start taking over the junior ranks of the professions, leading to a shortage of experienced people a few years later. It’s something that’s already in evidence in aviation, where there’s a shortage of experienced captains and trainers. The politicians will start to take note once lawyers and doctors start to be affected.

Good article Alastair, an enjoyable read and no mention of the b-word!

viewcode

JosiasJessop said:

viewcode said:

JosiasJessop said:

One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing.

Knock yourself out. A 2018 review of 13 3d printers. Includes prices.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IE6hSQu4lI

Thanks. I've robustly avoided buying one as it would be too much of a time sink. That, and the fact that I'm cr@p at design.

But there will be a point where capability and price will meet to make the tech truly transformative. Want a new toy for a children's party. Don't go to Toys R Us (*) or Amazon, but just download the designs and print one.

We're not there yet, and won't be for many years, but we will. But even this may end up increasing the number of jobs rather than decreasing it.

(*) Ooops

I'm not sure we're not there already. The earlier discussion of Blair and my coincidental leafing thru 'Britain Since 1918' made me realise that things have changes a lot in the past ten years. Subjects of discussion on PB since I joined in 2011-ish include Brexit, a federal European Union, a trade war with a protectionist US president, transgender rights, self-driving cars, invisibility cloaks, rockets that land vertically, electric cars, a worldwide Muslim jihad, Scottish independence, legal cannabis, 3d printing and, if Musk or the Chinese keep their promises, a Moon or Mars landing by 2020. Everything is different from, say, 2008. It does really feel like a science-fiction universe and we're right slap-bang in it.

Pause.

I still want a jetpack, tho...

OldKingCole

ydoethur said:

And three go in eight balls. This isn't the Siege of Johannesburg Mark II (although it wasn't dirt in Bancroft's pocket)!

Tim Paine may be about to have the shortest ever stint as official Test captain of Australia. Their batting is so poor they may not make it to the close, meaning (unless he captains in the next match) he will have been captain for one day.

Like someone said on the commentary I went off to do something else for ten minutes and POW!!!!

Sandpit

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

What do think of what IBM are doing with their Watson technology in the medical field?

viewcode

RoyalBlue said:

Wonderful header @AlastairMeeks - thank you.

If technological unemployment does grow precipitously, so will mental health problems. We have not evolved to be idle.

If you take into account non-working spouses, children and the retired, only about 40% of the population work. I think I could cope with idleness...

MinnieBannister

I think the idea that there was some caring bond between men and horses that their replacement by mechanical means broke is romanticism. Horses were worked hard until they were worn out through out human history. Foreign donkeys are maltreated not because they are no longer needed but because they have hard tasks to do for fairly desperate people.

For horse welfare their replacement by steam and the internal combustion engine was the best thing that ever happened.

Sandpit

JosiasJessop said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

JosiasJessop said:

Very interesting threader, thanks Alastair.

I'm of the view that we're not yet at a tip-over point where more jobs are lost to new tech than are gained from applications of that new tech. In fact, IMV it'll take either a catastrophe - e.g. a solar storm or EMP event - or true AI for it to happen. And I'm a good deal more bearish than many on here about the future prospects of AI.

As an aside, after the war my dad was taught to plough both with horses and with a tractor. He is the last generation for which horse-ploughing would have been seen as a 'useful' skill. He also remembers steam-ploughs - a steam engine at each end of a field, with a cable between the two pulling the plough, although that was a dying craft even when he was a child.

The rate of change has been massive. How will I explain to my three-year old that TV's used to be big boxes with tiny screens, and the state-of-the-art was black and white?

I am much more in the camp that ML / AI will assist in jobs rather than widespread eradication e.g. more and more ML will process medical scans / test results and present information to consultants.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's more people like SeanT who witter on about all lorry drivers being out of work in ten years (as it must have been a couple of years ago, he's got eight years left).

One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing. I'm incredibly bullish (*) on it, and good multi-material 3D printing that is cheap enough, put together with good designs, could be truly transformative.

(*) No, that's not bullsh*t.

The 3D printed house - done in 24 hours for $4,000
https://www.fastcompany.com/40538464/this-house-can-be-3d-printed-for-4000

Revolutionary if they can scale it.

OldKingCole

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

What do think of what IBM are doing with their Watson technology in the medical field?

I’m not sure that, as a potential recipient of care in the not too far away, I’d like a robot doing my ‘personal care’.

ydoethur

OldKingCole said:

ydoethur said:

And three go in eight balls. This isn't the Siege of Johannesburg Mark II (although it wasn't dirt in Bancroft's pocket)!

Tim Paine may be about to have the shortest ever stint as official Test captain of Australia. Their batting is so poor they may not make it to the close, meaning (unless he captains in the next match) he will have been captain for one day.

Like someone said on the commentary I went off to do something else for ten minutes and POW!!!!

OKC, you might not have heard but you urgently needed other than in front of Cricinfo for 10 minutes!

TheScreamingEagles

I nearly used this as the video at the top of the thread.

It is what always comes into my head when people talk about robots taking over human roles.

https://youtu.be/Tb627xDlqBs

OldKingCole

ydoethur said:

OldKingCole said:

ydoethur said:

And three go in eight balls. This isn't the Siege of Johannesburg Mark II (although it wasn't dirt in Bancroft's pocket)!

Tim Paine may be about to have the shortest ever stint as official Test captain of Australia. Their batting is so poor they may not make it to the close, meaning (unless he captains in the next match) he will have been captain for one day.

Like someone said on the commentary I went off to do something else for ten minutes and POW!!!!

OKC, you might not have heard but you urgently needed other than in front of Cricinfo for 10 minutes!

Soprry, Dr, but I’m not quite sure what you mean!

OldKingCole

Not turning out to be Smith’s best day ever, is it?

ydoethur

OldKingCole said:

ydoethur said:

OldKingCole said:

ydoethur said:

And three go in eight balls. This isn't the Siege of Johannesburg Mark II (although it wasn't dirt in Bancroft's pocket)!

Tim Paine may be about to have the shortest ever stint as official Test captain of Australia. Their batting is so poor they may not make it to the close, meaning (unless he captains in the next match) he will have been captain for one day.

Like someone said on the commentary I went off to do something else for ten minutes and POW!!!!

OKC, you might not have heard but you urgently needed other than in front of Cricinfo for 10 minutes!

Soprry, Dr, but I’m not quite sure what you mean!

Ah, I thought if you went off again there might be another collapse. But Smith is out anyway!!!

You would have to have a heart of stone not to laugh at the send off he seems to be copping...

JosiasJessop

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

JosiasJessop said:

Very interesting threader, thanks Alastair.

I'm of the view that we're not yet at a tip-over point where more jobs are lost to new tech than are gained from applications of that new tech. In fact, IMV it'll take either a catastrophe - e.g. a solar storm or EMP event - or true AI for it to happen. And I'm a good deal more bearish than many on here about the future prospects of AI.

As an aside, after the war my dad was taught to plough both with horses and with a tractor. He is the last generation for which horse-ploughing would have been seen as a 'useful' skill. He also remembers steam-ploughs - a steam engine at each end of a field, with a cable between the two pulling the plough, although that was a dying craft even when he was a child.

The rate of change has been massive. How will I explain to my three-year old that TV's used to be big boxes with tiny screens, and the state-of-the-art was black and white?

I am much more in the camp that ML / AI will assist in jobs rather than widespread eradication e.g. more and more ML will process medical scans / test results and present information to consultants.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's more people like SeanT who witter on about all lorry drivers being out of work in ten years (as it must have been a couple of years ago, he's got eight years left).

One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing. I'm incredibly bullish (*) on it, and good multi-material 3D printing that is cheap enough, put together with good designs, could be truly transformative.

(*) No, that's not bullsh*t.

The 3D printed house - done in 24 hours for $4,000
https://www.fastcompany.com/40538464/this-house-can-be-3d-printed-for-4000

Revolutionary if they can scale it.

And if it lasts more than a few months.

It's also bullsh*t. A house is more than just the shell; it's all the services as well, the finish, etc, etc. Yes, such tech could speed things up, but the '24 hours' claim is rubbish. It's like making a car's monocoque, putting a simple axle and wheels on it, and calling it a 'car'.

Even for homes for the poor, it's a poor solution.

BTW, have you ever seen Concrete Canvas?

I mean, the article even uses the phrase: "Because it is built using software..."

ydoethur

TheScreamingEagles said:

I nearly used this as the video at the top of the thread.

It is what always comes into my head when people talk about robots taking over human roles.

Was that decision a toss-up?

TheScreamingEagles

ydoethur said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I nearly used this as the video at the top of the thread.

It is what always comes into my head when people talk about robots taking over human roles.

Was that decision a toss-up?

Ja. I agonised about it for five days.

ydoethur

TheScreamingEagles said:

ydoethur said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I nearly used this as the video at the top of the thread.

It is what always comes into my head when people talk about robots taking over human roles.

Was that decision a toss-up?

Ja. I agonised about it for five days.

I understand the solution to the agony was to turn the computer off...

malcolmg

FrancisUrquhart said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

So rabada got 2 matches for bumping into a batsman, stokes got one match for saying naughty words, but outright cheating only gets you 75% of your match fee...something very wrong with the rules.

It is only rounders, what does it matter

logical_song

Humans will not be able to compete with AI in a number of sectors. They will be more productive and will make those controlling them rich - they will need to be taxed somehow and we humans will need to be kept alive. Universal Basic Wage, maybe?

ydoethur

malcolmg said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

So rabada got 2 matches for bumping into a batsman, stokes got one match for saying naughty words, but outright cheating only gets you 75% of your match fee...something very wrong with the rules.

It is only rounders, what does it matter

At this rate the only sport Australia's captain will be playing is conkers.

malcolmg

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

So rabada got 2 matches for bumping into a batsman, stokes got one match for saying naughty words, but outright cheating only gets you 75% of your match fee...something very wrong with the rules.

It is only rounders, what does it matter

At this rate the only sport Australia's captain will be playing is conkers.

A real sport

Essexit

Strong article Alastair. Two thoughts arise:

1) In policy terms, how do we expand ownership of capital to the many, not the few? The drastic solution would be forcible redistribution, with all the issues that entails. I wonder if a gentler 'nudge' solution, started gradually and imminently, might achieve the same result in a better way; e.g. tax incentives for employers to provide compensation in the form of shares or for private individuals to purchase them.

2) Part of the solution surely has to be encouraging shorter working hours to ration an increasingly scarce amount of work highly-skilled humans can't do. Again, a nudge might be preferable to a French-style hard cap. An improved work-life balance would no doubt be to the benefit of mental health and to the care needs of an ageing population.

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

F1: Channel 4 highlights are currently on. But if you don't mind spoilers, here's my post-race analysis of a race that was quite interesting:
http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2018/03/australia-post-race-analysis-2018.html

The human and horses comparison is flawed, because horses were the mode of transport. The shift of that led to horses largely becoming leisure creatures for many people rather than working (riding) animals.

Barring very rare events such as the Black Death, or the prehistoric supervolcanic eruption that very nearly wiped us out, the human population has only ever risen. Nor has technology reduced human work.

The idea that technology can free us from labour to enjoy leisure pursuits and idle fancies is a wonderful idea, but belongs in the Utopian sci-fi of Star Trek.

JosiasJessop

TheScreamingEagles said:

I nearly used this as the video at the top of the thread.

It is what always comes into my head when people talk about robots taking over human roles.

http s://youtu.be/Tb627xDlqBs

I should love the Big Bang Theory, but the god-awful canned laughter makes me want to throw my remote through the screen.

viewcode

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

What do think of what IBM are doing with their Watson technology in the medical field?

I actually recommended their Watson software back in (thinks) 2015?, but my company is wedded to Microsoft for proprietary and opensource for freestuff, so it went nowhere. It's impressive.

Their medical stuff in the UK is good http://www.alderhey.nhs.uk/welcome-to-alder-hey-the-uks-first-cognitive-hospital/how-it-helps/ . It's not robot nurses, it's computerised check-in, patient monitoring, predicting outcomes and recommending treatments. A help to nurses and doctors on their tablet/phone/PC, not a robotic replacement.

Presumably the recommendation of undetectable poisons to weed out undesirable patients and secure power for the singularity will come later....

Sandpit

JosiasJessop said:

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

JosiasJessop said:

.?

I am much more in the camp that ML / AI will assist in jobs rather than widespread eradication e.g. more and more ML will process medical scans / test results and present information to consultants.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's more people like SeanT who witter on about all lorry drivers being out of work in ten years (as it must have been a couple of years ago, he's got eight years left).

One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing. I'm incredibly bullish (*) on it, and good multi-material 3D printing that is cheap enough, put together with good designs, could be truly transformative.

(*) No, that's not bullsh*t.

The 3D printed house - done in 24 hours for $4,000
https://www.fastcompany.com/40538464/this-house-can-be-3d-printed-for-4000

Revolutionary if they can scale it.

And if it lasts more than a few months.

It's also bullsh*t. A house is more than just the shell; it's all the services as well, the finish, etc, etc. Yes, such tech could speed things up, but the '24 hours' claim is rubbish. It's like making a car's monocoque, putting a simple axle and wheels on it, and calling it a 'car'.

Even for homes for the poor, it's a poor solution.

BTW, have you ever seen Concrete Canvas?

I mean, the article even uses the phrase: "Because it is built using software..."

Yes, they key is that it complies with building regulations (hence why they’re starting in poorer countries), and there’s obviously an amount of prep work required - it will need a concrete slab and services provision. A useful alternative to prefab units where there isn’t the local manufacturing ability though, or where there’s been severe disruption becuause of a disaster.

Concrete Canvas is another interesting one, I’d imagine the aforementioned printer uses something similar. Building technology is certainly progressing at the moment.

viewcode

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

What do think of what IBM are doing with their Watson technology in the medical field?

I’m not sure that, as a potential recipient of care in the not too far away, I’d like a robot doing my ‘personal care’.

Do you have a Fitbit? I got shouted at in work when I pointed out that wearing a Fitbit was the same as letting a computerised watch control your behavior and train you. And given the model (it issues tasks, you do them, you get points for correct behavior, you spend the points, it issues more tasks) I can't help thinking I was correct...

TheScreamingEagles

Aussies collapsing like the Carthignians at Zama.

ydoethur

malcolmg said:

ydoethur said:

malcolmg said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

So rabada got 2 matches for bumping into a batsman, stokes got one match for saying naughty words, but outright cheating only gets you 75% of your match fee...something very wrong with the rules.

It is only rounders, what does it matter

At this rate the only sport Australia's captain will be playing is conkers.

A real sport

That's more than can be said for Oz's cricketers at this moment.

kle4

malcolmg said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

So rabada got 2 matches for bumping into a batsman, stokes got one match for saying naughty words, but outright cheating only gets you 75% of your match fee...something very wrong with the rules.

It is only rounders, what does it matter

Sporting contests have always mattered.

TheScreamingEagles

JosiasJessop said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I nearly used this as the video at the top of the thread.

It is what always comes into my head when people talk about robots taking over human roles.

http s://youtu.be/Tb627xDlqBs

I should love the Big Bang Theory, but the god-awful canned laughter makes me want to throw my remote through the screen.

It’s studio laughter.

https://youtu.be/JdLvUkLW5Jk

ydoethur

Marsh gone.

86/6.

They may have lost Marsh, but they are definitely in the mire...

ydoethur

kle4 said:

malcolmg said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

Richard_Tyndall said:

Sandpit said:

Second like the cheating convicts.

What the....?

That’s no punishment at all, I was expecting something up there with what the Patistani spot fixers got, or someone who’d failed a drug test. After all, they were basically drugging the ball. One year ban, minimum for the Captain was required if it’s to be a deterrent.

Under the rules ball tampering only carries a 1 match ban. The interesting question will be what the Australian Cricket authorities do later.

So rabada got 2 matches for bumping into a batsman, stokes got one match for saying naughty words, but outright cheating only gets you 75% of your match fee...something very wrong with the rules.

It is only rounders, what does it matter

Sporting contests have always mattered.

Unsporting contests generate much more comment though.

Sandpit

viewcode said:

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

What do think of what IBM are doing with their Watson technology in the medical field?

I actually recommended their Watson software back in (thinks) 2015?, but my company is wedded to Microsoft for proprietary and opensource for freestuff, so it went nowhere. It's impressive.

Their medical stuff in the UK is good http://www.alderhey.nhs.uk/welcome-to-alder-hey-the-uks-first-cognitive-hospital/how-it-helps/ . It's not robot nurses, it's computerised check-in, patient monitoring, predicting outcomes and recommending treatments. A help to nurses and doctors on their tablet/phone/PC, not a robotic replacement.

Presumably the recommendation of undetectable poisons to weed out undesirable patients and secure power for the singularity will come later....

They did a good early publicity job of teaching Watson to play (and win) Jeopardy, a notoriously difficult US TV quiz show.

Recent tests with it have had the AI equal to specialist oncologists (and way ahead of the average GP or A&E consultant) at identifying certain types of cancer, and at giving very good second opinions when presented with unusual symptoms. It’s not going to replace doctors anytime soon, but it could have the effect of allowing specialists to better allocate their schedules and generalists to help with diagnosis, referrals and training.

JosiasJessop

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

Sandpit said:

JosiasJessop said:

FrancisUrquhart said:

JosiasJessop said:

.?

I am much more in the camp that ML / AI will assist in jobs rather than widespread eradication e.g. more and more ML will process medical scans / test results and present information to consultants.

Yeah, I'm with you on that. It's more people like SeanT who witter on about all lorry drivers being out of work in ten years (as it must have been a couple of years ago, he's got eight years left).

One prospect that intrigues me is 3D printing. I'm incredibly bullish (*) on it, and good multi-material 3D printing that is cheap enough, put together with good designs, could be truly transformative.

(*) No, that's not bullsh*t.

The 3D printed house - done in 24 hours for $4,000
https://www.fastcompany.com/40538464/this-house-can-be-3d-printed-for-4000

Revolutionary if they can scale it.

And if it lasts more than a few months.

It's also bullsh*t. A house is more than just the shell; it's all the services as well, the finish, etc, etc. Yes, such tech could speed things up, but the '24 hours' claim is rubbish. It's like making a car's monocoque, putting a simple axle and wheels on it, and calling it a 'car'.

Even for homes for the poor, it's a poor solution.

BTW, have you ever seen Concrete Canvas?

I mean, the article even uses the phrase: "Because it is built using software..."

Yes, they key is that it complies with building regulations (hence why they’re starting in poorer countries), and there’s obviously an amount of prep work required - it will need a concrete slab and services provision. A useful alternative to prefab units where there isn’t the local manufacturing ability though, or where there’s been severe disruption becuause of a disaster.

Concrete Canvas is another interesting one, I’d imagine the aforementioned printer uses something similar. Building technology is certainly progressing at the moment.

Concrete canvas has been around for a decade or more - two students designed it as a way of providing better shelter for disasters than tents. You just take a load to a disaster area, inflate them, spray them with water, and you have permanent hard shelters.

Sadly, it seems that role hasn't really taken off and it's much more used in general civils work. This sort of tech would have similar issues with adoption IMO, along with added difficulties.

Still, CC is a great British invention.

kle4

JosiasJessop said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

I nearly used this as the video at the top of the thread.

It is what always comes into my head when people talk about robots taking over human roles.

http s://youtu.be/Tb627xDlqBs

I should love the Big Bang Theory, but the god-awful canned laughter makes me want to throw my remote through the screen.

I find even sitcoms I loved in my youth I struggle to watch now if they have canned laughter. So irritating.

OldKingCole

viewcode said:

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

What do think of what IBM are doing with their Watson technology in the medical field?

I’m not sure that, as a potential recipient of care in the not too far away, I’d like a robot doing my ‘personal care’.

Do you have a Fitbit? I got shouted at in work when I pointed out that wearing a Fitbit was the same as letting a computerised watch control your behavior and train you. And given the model (it issues tasks, you do them, you get points for correct behavior, you spend the points, it issues more tasks) I can't help thinking I was correct...

I don’t need something that issues tasks, and when I’ve done them gives me points for correct behaviour and then issues more tasks.

I’ve been married a long time!

ydoethur

Cummins goes as well.

Second two in two of the innings. Can Morkel in what may be his last Test take the hat trick?

Edit - no. Starc channels his inner Jessop and hammers it for four.

AndyJS

First direct passenger flight between Australia and the UK:

https://news.sky.com/story/first-direct-flight-from-australia-to-london-heathrow-takes-17-hours-11303554

Rexel56

I’m sorry, but I just don't buy the argument that the next wave of automation, even with the addition of AI, is fundamentally different to what has gone before.

So called Vloggers currently earn money, the best earn a lot of money simply by letting people watch them put their make-up on. Humans have found ways to create and trade value through their efforts since the first primitive man threw some stones on the floor and told someone’s fortune. Art, sport, entertainment, politics, bureaucracy, theoretical science, care, literature... fields of human activity we haven’t dreamt of yet... all will flourish in the future as robots do what the plough did and free time...

williamglenn

ydoethur said:

Cummings goes as well.

You got my hopes up for a second.

Sandpit

ydoethur said:

Marsh gone.

86/6.

They may have lost Marsh, but they are definitely in the mire...

Make that 86/7. Morkel on a hat-trick.

ydoethur

williamglenn said:

ydoethur said:

Cummings goes as well.

You got my hopes up for a second.

It was a Freudian slip on the part of my autocorrect.

BTW you can't possibly hate Dominic Cummings more than I do.

viewcode

OldKingCole said:

viewcode said:

OldKingCole said:

Sandpit said:

Foxy said:

Good article, but worth noting that some areas are much less open to automation. Health and Social Care, but also cleaning and hospitality. It is the white collar professionals and the skilled mass manufacturing where the jobs are going. In the future the factories will be different, with a few engineering, design and marketing jobs, and a few cleaners and security men, with not much inbetween.

What do think of what IBM are doing with their Watson technology in the medical field?

I’m not sure that, as a potential recipient of care in the not too far away, I’d like a robot doing my ‘personal care’.

Do you have a Fitbit? I got shouted at in work when I pointed out that wearing a Fitbit was the same as letting a computerised watch control your behavior and train you. And given the model (it issues tasks, you do them, you get points for correct behavior, you spend the points, it issues more tasks) I can't help thinking I was correct...

I don’t need something that issues tasks, and when I’ve done them gives me points for correct behaviour and then issues more tasks.

I’ve been married a long time!

Boom boom...

ydoethur

AndyJS said:

First direct passenger flight between Australia and the UK:

https://news.sky.com/story/first-direct-flight-from-australia-to-london-heathrow-takes-17-hours-11303554

Do they offer free sticky tape?

OldKingCole

Rexel56 said:

I’m sorry, but I just don't buy the argument that the next wave of automation, even with the addition of AI, is fundamentally different to what has gone before.

So called Vloggers currently earn money, the best earn a lot of money simply by letting people watch them put their make-up on. Humans have found ways to create and trade value through their efforts since the first primitive man threw some stones on the floor and told someone’s fortune. Art, sport, entertainment, politics, bureaucracy, theoretical science, care, literature... fields of human activity we haven’t dreamt of yet... all will flourish in the future as robots do what the plough did and free time...

One set of teenage grandchildren were, a couple of weeks. ago discussing with their parents how they could make money Vlogging with Grannie and Grandpa as somewhat bemused listeners.


PS. I’m now off to the pub. That’s not been automated. See you all later

Foxy

NickPalmer said:

What a great article - arresting, witty, thought-provoking.

I'd add that if the beneficiaries of automation are not only limited in number but largely able to avoid paying tax like everyone else, then left-wing populism is appropriate, and if it failed then revolution would loom on the horizon.

Indeed, Marx may be correct about the Alienation of the workers, just a bit behind schedule.

On the other hand it could be like the information technology revolution. People expected the money to be made in the hardware, but it turned out to be the software and apllications that were the real bonanza. Similarly the railway revolution did not make much money for the railway owners (indeed they often lost their shirts), the money came from being able to exploit the transport to trade and travel better.

ydoethur

OldKingCole said:

Rexel56 said:

I’m sorry, but I just don't buy the argument that the next wave of automation, even with the addition of AI, is fundamentally different to what has gone before.

So called Vloggers currently earn money, the best earn a lot of money simply by letting people watch them put their make-up on. Humans have found ways to create and trade value through their efforts since the first primitive man threw some stones on the floor and told someone’s fortune. Art, sport, entertainment, politics, bureaucracy, theoretical science, care, literature... fields of human activity we haven’t dreamt of yet... all will flourish in the future as robots do what the plough did and free time...

One set of teenage grandchildren were, a couple of weeks. ago discussing with their parents how they could make money Vlogging with Grannie and Grandpa as somewhat bemused listeners.


PS. I’m now off to the pub. That’s not been automated. See you all later

And that brings the breakthrough as Starc now goes.

He was hit on the head earlier, apparently. However, there was no evidence of a brain. Sorry, that should have 'injury' on the end.

CarlottaVance

AndyJS said:

First direct passenger flight between Australia and the UK:

https://news.sky.com/story/first-direct-flight-from-australia-to-london-heathrow-takes-17-hours-11303554

You’re right “direct passenger flight” and Sky are wrong - Qantas flew their first 744 empty (bar a cricket ball) from London to Sydney. I suspect in a couple of years the 350-1000 will be able to do it with a reasonable load.

AndyJS

edit

initforthemoney

The implication would appear to be grim for immigration/freedom of movement enthusiasts (particularly under a universal basic income as suggested in a comment below). Perhaps leave voters weren't so thick after all, eh?

Even as socially Britain has moved sharply to the right on an anti-immigration wave, economically Britain looks to be moving to the left.

These are more consistent than the author's worldview permits him to believe.

Free market values are only going to be preserved if their advocates can come up with a format that enables enough people to participate properly in the free market.

i.e. free market values can not be preserved under the current EU consensus.

HYUFD

If we are to see mass movement from the world of work to the world of leisure for most humans as horses have seen then we need funding to support those humans to undertake those more leisurely and recreational and creative endeavours.

That would require a universal basic income once more people were out of permanent, full time work than had full time jobs and that would have to be funded by a robot tax on large companies based on the number of machines they employ. Share ownership would also need to be expanded to try and ensure more people benefit from some of the profits of those companies.

ydoethur

As if what's happened isn't bad enough, they now attempt a single to Temba Bavuma, with predictable, even inevitable disaster following.

This must be the worst Test Australia have ever, ever played. It's dismal.

ydoethur

Australia lose by 334 runs.

Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

SouthamObserver

Excellent article. Societies are only sustainable if enough people feel they have a stake in their sustainability. Wealthy corporations and individuals doing all they can to ensure they pay as little tax as possible are sowing the seeds of their own destruction.

TheScreamingEagles

ydoethur said:

Australia lose by 334 runs.

Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

The review saves Paine.

ydoethur

TheScreamingEagles said:

ydoethur said:

Australia lose by 334 runs.

Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

The review saves Paine.

A little paine perhaps.

I think there is much pain to come for Aus!

kle4

SouthamObserver said:

Excellent article. Societies are only sustainable if enough people feel they have a stake in their sustainability. Wealthy corporations and individuals doing all they can to ensure they pay as little tax as possible are sowing the seeds of their own destruction.

Or that of those that follow them at any rate.

Sandpit

TheScreamingEagles said:

ydoethur said:

Australia lose by 334 runs.

Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

The review saves Paine.

They’ve got a lot more Paine to come, the cheating Mark Recklesses.

ydoethur

Sandpit said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

ydoethur said:

Australia lose by 334 runs.

Just imagine how badly they would have been humiliated if they hadn't tried to cheat...why, the captain would surely have had to resign in disgrace!

The review saves Paine.

They’ve got a lot more Paine to come, the cheating Mark Recklesses.

Paine is the only solution, you feel. Lots and lots of Paine...

Edit - and surely, Hazle Wood throw it away. So it's not quite as bad as I feared, they only lose by 322 runs.

TheScreamingEagles

Not it is all Red Rover in Cape Town, Saffers win by 322 runs.

ydoethur

TheScreamingEagles said:

Not it is all Red Rover in Cape Town, Saffers win by 322 runs.

Thqnk goodness Smith's cheating kept it to a manageable level, eh?