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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s local By-Election Preview : April 10th 2013 (t-22

SystemSystem Posts: 12,059
edited April 2013 in General

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Tonight’s local By-Election Preview : April 10th 2013 (t-22 days until Counties 2013)

Result of last election (2011): Lib Dem 1,239, 1402, 1113 (average: 1,252 (41%) Lab 786, 734, 781 (average: 767 (25%) Con 787, 807, 559 (average: 718(23%) UKIP 324 from one candidate (11%)

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«13

Comments

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    First to say what a terrible day for PB.
  • FPT

    @Roger

    Don't worry, all this Thatcher eulogising, like Northern Rock, will be forgotten by next weekend.
  • For a moment I thought today was Thursday.

    But thanks again for this Harry.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    surbiton said:

    First to say what a terrible day for PB.

    I know! We had some tool commenting on the singles chart!
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    @Subiton you must have missed the coded discussion about Triumph TR7s being an unworthy inferior successor to the TR5 or TR6.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Truly surprised, you missed out Gen Franco !
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 21,995
    @Surbiton

    What has PB done to displese you so?
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    Roger: I'd vote for Pinochet too. Come to it, Videla and Viola for doing the same in Argentina.

    But you knew that. And you might even pretend to be outraged.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 118,642
    edited April 2013
    @SeanT

    You can add Helmut Kohl to that list.

    Architect of German Re-unification and the Euro.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    surbiton said:

    Truly surprised, you missed out Gen Franco !

    His services to mankind were mainly pre-war.
  • @SeanT

    He may not have been elected but I would add Martin Luther King to that list.....
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Ronald Reagan
    Paul Martin of Canada.
    Fatcha.
    George W Bush.

    That's about it.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT, you also missed out Salazar !
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    surbiton said:

    First to say what a terrible day for PB.

    I know! We had some tool commenting on the singles chart!
    Thanks for reminding me ! Here it is:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04/10/ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead-song-number-one-margaret-thatcher_n_3050678.html
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189
    "This is a local election for local people! There's nothing for you here!"
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited April 2013
    2011 was a bad year for LD overall. They won this ward comfortably. So I can't see them losing today considering they are a bit up nation wide compared to 2011.
  • SeanT said:

    @SeanT

    You can add Helmut Kohl to that list.

    Architect of German Re-unification and the Euro.

    You jest?

    No architect of the euro can be classed as great. It's like saying the devisor of the Millennium Dome should get the Nobel.
    Not entirely jesting.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Truly surprised, you missed out Gen Franco !

    I toyed with Franco. I genuinely - genuinely - believe he saved Spain from communism, and he handed on a relatively stable monarchy which quickly became a democracy. But he was a nasty bastard, at the same time. But then again many of his opponents on the Left were equally evil and just as bloodthirsty (read the Spanish Civil War histories of nuns being raped by commies).

    But Franco's ad-hoc alliance with Hitler to wipe out the Basques of Guernica, with the dress-rehearsing Luftwaffe.....?

    Nah. Too much.

    But there is quite corner which really likes Franco !
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    De Gaulle - unravelled the Algerian knot albeit at a price to those who supported the French presence, created the Fifth Republic the basis of a stable French political system.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    If Thatcher was so good, why did the Tories throw her out ?

    No one else did !
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    I think Tito would be on the list of great politicians, for his refusal to fall under the control of the Soviets, and his skill at keeping a very diverse country together, and as co-founder of the non-aligned movement.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Willy Brandt - the architect of Ostpolitik. It sowed the seeds of liberation of Eastern Europe.
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    @SeanT

    Golda Meir, Lee Kuan Yew and Kim Dae Jung and David Cameron should be added onto your list.
  • philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    surbiton said:

    If Thatcher was so good, why did the Tories throw her out ?

    No one else did !

    She had done her time as No1. In a democracy nobody should serve as PM for more than 10 years / 2 terms, in my opinion.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    surbiton said:

    If Thatcher was so good, why did the Tories throw her out ?

    No one else did !

    Dur - she might have been getting on a bit - or do you want leader for life like Cuba and Venezuala ?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189
    surbiton said:

    SeanT said:

    surbiton said:

    Truly surprised, you missed out Gen Franco !

    I toyed with Franco. I genuinely - genuinely - believe he saved Spain from communism, and he handed on a relatively stable monarchy which quickly became a democracy. But he was a nasty bastard, at the same time. But then again many of his opponents on the Left were equally evil and just as bloodthirsty (read the Spanish Civil War histories of nuns being raped by commies).

    But Franco's ad-hoc alliance with Hitler to wipe out the Basques of Guernica, with the dress-rehearsing Luftwaffe.....?

    Nah. Too much.

    But there is quite corner which really likes Franco !
    Franco, my dear, I don't give a damn!

    :)
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189
    SeanT said:

    fpt

    OK. Let's widen the debate.

    We all accept (even Roger when he's not being an arse) that Thatcher was a great politician.

    How many other great postwar politicians have their been?

    In western Europe very very few. Perhaps none. De Gaulle was wartime. Adenauer maybe? Hmmm. Across all Europe I'd say Gorbachev, Walesa and Pope John Paul.

    Across the world I'd say

    De Klerk and Mandela
    Lula of Brazil
    Castro (much as I loathe him)
    Pinochet (saved Chile from Marxism)
    Deng Xiao Ping
    Gandhi
    Alex Salmond
    OK that last one was a joke
    Reagan
    JFK if only because of his theatrically-brilliant martyrdom, like Jesus

    Any others?

    Is that Indira Gandhi or the Mahatma?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    In a Spanish context how about Felipe Gonzalez (with honourable mention to King Juan Carlos for his assist). Gave Spain years of moderate centre left democratic govt after 40 odd years of a thirties hangover brutal fascist dictator. Turned Spain quickly into a boring normal W European country in which power changes hands through the ballot box.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Why is there a local by election tonight - Wednesday ?
  • SeanT said:

    fpt

    OK. Let's widen the debate.

    We all accept (even Roger when he's not being an arse) that Thatcher was a great politician.

    How many other great postwar politicians have their been?

    In western Europe very very few. Perhaps none. De Gaulle was wartime. Adenauer maybe? Hmmm. Across all Europe I'd say Gorbachev, Walesa and Pope John Paul.

    Across the world I'd say

    De Klerk and Mandela
    Lula of Brazil
    Castro (much as I loathe him)
    Pinochet (saved Chile from Marxism)
    Deng Xiao Ping
    Gandhi
    Alex Salmond
    OK that last one was a joke
    Reagan
    JFK if only because of his theatrically-brilliant martyrdom, like Jesus

    Any others?

    Is that Indira Gandhi or the Mahatma?
    You forget Rajiv.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    surbiton said:

    If Thatcher was so good, why did the Tories throw her out ?

    No one else did !

    Should've gone May 5th 1989 in a Wilsonesque surprise. 10 years over and out. No silly poll tax legacy then at least.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Rumours that Cll Mark Walsh pulled out from South Shields Labour selection this afternoon...the hustings are, well, now!
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Tea party tories gushing and fawning over George W. Bush and Franco now.

    No doubt Thatchers good friend Pinochet will be next.

    Unspoofable as always. ;)
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    surbiton said:

    Why is there a local by election tonight - Wednesday ?

    Because in Luton things are different. There's n dictat that by-elections have to be on Thursday and I understand that Luton generally does by-elections on Wednesday.

    Ask Sean Fear next time he's on if he knows why - he lives in Luton South.

  • Rumours that Cll Mark Walsh pulled out from South Shields Labour selection this afternoon...the hustings are, well, now!

    Any reason given for him pulling out?
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Rumours that Cll Mark Walsh pulled out from South Shields Labour selection this afternoon...the hustings are, well, now!

    That's big news Andrea. I wonder why.



  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    SeanT said:

    @SeanT

    You can add Helmut Kohl to that list.

    Architect of German Re-unification and the Euro.

    You jest?

    No architect of the euro can be classed as great. It's like saying the devisor of the Millennium Dome should get the Nobel.
    Not entirely jesting.
    The problem of the Euro is not the conception, but the implementation. A lot of countries were allowed to join for political reasons who failed to meet the convergence criteria.

    One could make a case that the structural unemployment and un-competitiveness of much of the UK is because the value of the pound is weighted to the South East, and that the remainder of the UK is penalised by being unable to depreciate against it. It is much the same problem as the PIGS have with the Euro.
  • Bloody hell PSG.
  • Just received a text joke, re Monday night Utd v City and Aguerro's winner.

    "United destroyed by Argentinian sub"

    On that of all days!
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    tim said:

    @welshowl.

    I think the Thatcher Fan consensus is that they quite like brutal fascist dictators.
    I'm surprised Peter2 hasn't included any Serb war criminals.

    It's all getting more than a trifle 'stormfront' extreme far right on here now isn't it?
    Most unfortunate but hardly unexpected.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Rumours that Cll Mark Walsh pulled out from South Shields Labour selection this afternoon...the hustings are, well, now!

    That's big news Andrea. I wonder why.
    Shades of Miliband - Clark !

  • MikeKMikeK Posts: 9,053
    OT.
    I shall be disappointed if Ukip don't come first or second tonight.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    welshowl said:

    In a Spanish context how about Felipe Gonzalez (with honourable mention to King Juan Carlos for his assist). Gave Spain years of moderate centre left democratic govt after 40 odd years of a thirties hangover brutal fascist dictator. Turned Spain quickly into a boring normal W European country in which power changes hands through the ballot box.

    And like all good socialists were mired in corruption by the time they left. GAL were also controversial. For some.
  • Is renaming Heathrow in Boris' power?

    Public Ways to Commenorate Margaret Thatcher
    Commemorations to occur/built before the end of 2015.

    New Statue in Grantham 5/6

    Statue erected in Trafalgar Square 13/8

    Port Stanley renamed as Port Margaret 5/1

    Rename HMS Britannia as HMS Thatcher 20/1

    Heathrow renamed as Margaret Thatcher Airport 33/1

    Privatise the NHS 50/1

    Face carved into Mount Snowdon 500/1

    Argentine Sea to be renamed as the Thatcher Sea 1000/1

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/other-politics/uk-politics/Public-Ways-to-Commenorate-Margaret-Thatcher-5075642.html?force_racing_css=N
  • taffystaffys Posts: 9,753
    No doubt Thatchers good friend Pinochet will be next.

    Thatcher fatigue is well and truly setting in amongst the general public. Time for everybody to move swiftly on. Tories especially.
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    tim said:

    @welshowl.

    I think the Thatcher Fan consensus is that they quite like brutal fascist dictators.
    I'm surprised Peter2 hasn't included any Serb war criminals.

    Haha, any actually been convicted yet? As opposed to some judgeemnt from some kangaroo court? Still, fighting against sharia law is now a crime...
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189

    SeanT said:

    fpt

    OK. Let's widen the debate.

    We all accept (even Roger when he's not being an arse) that Thatcher was a great politician.

    How many other great postwar politicians have their been?

    In western Europe very very few. Perhaps none. De Gaulle was wartime. Adenauer maybe? Hmmm. Across all Europe I'd say Gorbachev, Walesa and Pope John Paul.

    Across the world I'd say

    De Klerk and Mandela
    Lula of Brazil
    Castro (much as I loathe him)
    Pinochet (saved Chile from Marxism)
    Deng Xiao Ping
    Gandhi
    Alex Salmond
    OK that last one was a joke
    Reagan
    JFK if only because of his theatrically-brilliant martyrdom, like Jesus

    Any others?

    Is that Indira Gandhi or the Mahatma?
    You forget Rajiv.
    Nah, he wasn't great like his mum.
  • john_zimsjohn_zims Posts: 3,399
    @Tim

    And Blair's soul mate was Gadaffi.
  • SeanT said:

    fpt

    OK. Let's widen the debate.

    We all accept (even Roger when he's not being an arse) that Thatcher was a great politician.

    How many other great postwar politicians have their been?

    In western Europe very very few. Perhaps none. De Gaulle was wartime. Adenauer maybe? Hmmm. Across all Europe I'd say Gorbachev, Walesa and Pope John Paul.

    Across the world I'd say

    De Klerk and Mandela
    Lula of Brazil
    Castro (much as I loathe him)
    Pinochet (saved Chile from Marxism)
    Deng Xiao Ping
    Gandhi
    Alex Salmond
    OK that last one was a joke
    Reagan
    JFK if only because of his theatrically-brilliant martyrdom, like Jesus

    Any others?

    Is that Indira Gandhi or the Mahatma?
    You forget Rajiv.
    Nah, he wasn't great like his mum.
    He would have been but for a suicide bomber.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    surbiton said:

    surbiton said:

    First to say what a terrible day for PB.

    I know! We had some tool commenting on the singles chart!
    Thanks for reminding me ! Here it is:

    http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/2013/04/10/ding-dong-the-witch-is-dead-song-number-one-margaret-thatcher_n_3050678.html
    Great news. People exercising their individual consumer power in a free market. The wretched old bag would've been proud.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189

    Is renaming Heathrow in Boris' power?

    Public Ways to Commenorate Margaret Thatcher
    Commemorations to occur/built before the end of 2015.

    New Statue in Grantham 5/6

    Statue erected in Trafalgar Square 13/8

    Port Stanley renamed as Port Margaret 5/1

    Rename HMS Britannia as HMS Thatcher 20/1

    Heathrow renamed as Margaret Thatcher Airport 33/1

    Privatise the NHS 50/1

    Face carved into Mount Snowdon 500/1

    Argentine Sea to be renamed as the Thatcher Sea 1000/1

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/other-politics/uk-politics/Public-Ways-to-Commenorate-Margaret-Thatcher-5075642.html?force_racing_css=N

    I think the last one is a spoof (along with the two above it). There's no such thing as the Argentine Sea!
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323

    Heathrow renamed as Margaret Thatcher Airport 33/1

    You'd be a bit annoyed if they renamed Gatwick!!
  • Is renaming Heathrow in Boris' power?

    Public Ways to Commenorate Margaret Thatcher
    Commemorations to occur/built before the end of 2015.

    New Statue in Grantham 5/6

    Statue erected in Trafalgar Square 13/8

    Port Stanley renamed as Port Margaret 5/1

    Rename HMS Britannia as HMS Thatcher 20/1

    Heathrow renamed as Margaret Thatcher Airport 33/1

    Privatise the NHS 50/1

    Face carved into Mount Snowdon 500/1

    Argentine Sea to be renamed as the Thatcher Sea 1000/1

    http://www.paddypower.com/bet/novelty-betting/other-politics/uk-politics/Public-Ways-to-Commenorate-Margaret-Thatcher-5075642.html?force_racing_css=N

    I think the last one is a spoof (along with the two above it). There's no such thing as the Argentine Sea!
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argentine_Sea
  • AveryLPAveryLP Posts: 7,815
    edited April 2013
    Mick_Pork said:

    tim said:

    @welshowl.

    I think the Thatcher Fan consensus is that they quite like brutal fascist dictators.
    I'm surprised Peter2 hasn't included any Serb war criminals.

    It's all getting more than a trifle 'stormfront' extreme far right on here now isn't it?
    Most unfortunate but hardly unexpected.

    Sean

    You will never be forgiven by Pork if you don't include Napoleon, not the short arsed frog but the President of Animal Farm.

    I understand Pork is related to the great leader.
  • dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,300
    The Algerian crisis wrecked the Fourth Republic, yet De Gaulle managed extradite France from it, partly by double crossing elements in his own armed forces who were prepared to stage a coup against the government in Paris. Arguably he prevented the Algerian crisis turning into a civil war in Metropolitan France.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    How about the Leader of one of the poorest countries in the world in the 1960's, that is now one of the richest in the region, the fastest growing, and most consistently growing economy in the world over the last 50 years?

    Ladies and Gentlemen, may I nominate Seretse Khama of Botswana?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seretse_Khama
  • Grandiose said:

    Heathrow renamed as Margaret Thatcher Airport 33/1

    You'd be a bit annoyed if they renamed Gatwick!!
    I'd be more than annoyed.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    Rumours that Cll Mark Walsh pulled out from South Shields Labour selection this afternoon...the hustings are, well, now!

    That's big news Andrea. I wonder why.



    "Personal reasons"

    http://tyneandwear.sky.com/news/article/63042/shock-withdrawal-of-labour-party-favourite-to-replace-david
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    I'd like to nominate Thatcher's friend Saddam to the list of great politicians. Oh sure! He was a bit nasty like Franco, but hey!
  • Peter_2Peter_2 Posts: 146
    Mick_Pork said:

    tim said:

    @welshowl.

    I think the Thatcher Fan consensus is that they quite like brutal fascist dictators.
    I'm surprised Peter2 hasn't included any Serb war criminals.

    It's all getting more than a trifle 'stormfront' extreme far right on here now isn't it?
    Most unfortunate but hardly unexpected.

    Don't worry, we'll have a leftie love in when Madiba goes to the big kraal in the sky.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    edited April 2013
    taffys said:

    Thatcher fatigue is well and truly setting in amongst the general public. Time for everybody to move swiftly on. Tories especially.

    Not at all. The tories should spend the next few weeks and months banging on about her as loudly and publicly as possible and at every opportunity.

    Perhaps they could have a Thatcher memorial EU debate and legislation in westminster too too while they are at it? I can't see how Cammie would have any problems with that. :)

  • Margaret Thatcher's death has dealt a further blow to already strained relations between Downing Street and the Speaker of the House of Commons, John Bercow, after the prime minister ditched both past precedent and a long-agreed plan to demand Wednesday's recall of parliament.

    The seven-and-a-half-hour session of Commons tributes – led by David Cameron and Ed Miliband – had earlier been the subject of tense exchanges between Number 10 and Bercow's office, the Guardian has learned. The Speaker was said to be "taken aback" by the initial request that parliament be recalled, since that move had previously been reserved only for matters of national emergency.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/10/margaret-thatcher-parliament-john-bercow?CMP=twt_fd
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    SeanT said:

    @SeanT

    You can add Helmut Kohl to that list.

    Architect of German Re-unification and the Euro.

    You jest?

    No architect of the euro can be classed as great. It's like saying the devisor of the Millennium Dome should get the Nobel.
    Not entirely jesting.
    The problem of the Euro is not the conception, but the implementation. A lot of countries were allowed to join for political reasons who failed to meet the convergence criteria.

    One could make a case that the structural unemployment and un-competitiveness of much of the UK is because the value of the pound is weighted to the South East, and that the remainder of the UK is penalised by being unable to depreciate against it. It is much the same problem as the PIGS have with the Euro.
    The problem with the Euro is its conception in its current form. The south east shares a govt with the north that raises and distributes taxes ( pensions, child benefit, heating allowance are the same in Newcastle and Cambridge), spend govt cash ( the DSS headquarters is in Newcastle not Cambridge) and crucially workers can ultimately "emigrate" from. Newcastle to Cambridge, same language same ( you know what I mean) culture.

    Munich does not share taxes, govt spending or language with Porto, Thessaloniki, Galway, Valencia etc hence the problem. Single currencies can survive without all the criteria above (Switzerland, Belgium, Ireland and UK 1922 -79) but not an absence of all three. Geneva shares taxes and a govt with Zurich if not a language. Galway shared a language with the UK ( hence Ireland effectively paid for currency union via emigration and depopulation from the 20s to the 70s).

    I have this very day returned from Germany where they think we are very smart for staying out and lament hugely the accidental unpopularity they are unjustifiably garnering in Southern Europe when they ( rightly) think a) nobody asked them if they wanted the Euro b) they've done nothing wrong other than be thrifty and efficient.
  • Iranian scientist claims to have invented 'time Machine'

    An Iranian businessman claims to have mastered time with a machine that allows users to fast forward up to eight years into the future.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9985757/Iranian-scientist-claims-to-have-invented-time-Machine.html
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Pong said:

    Rumours that Cll Mark Walsh pulled out from South Shields Labour selection this afternoon...the hustings are, well, now!

    That's big news Andrea. I wonder why.



    "Personal reasons"

    http://tyneandwear.sky.com/news/article/63042/shock-withdrawal-of-labour-party-favourite-to-replace-david

    At the 11th hour? Smacks of a bit of a shambles. They should have been certain of everything long before this.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Mick_Pork said:

    Pong said:

    Rumours that Cll Mark Walsh pulled out from South Shields Labour selection this afternoon...the hustings are, well, now!

    That's big news Andrea. I wonder why.



    "Personal reasons"

    http://tyneandwear.sky.com/news/article/63042/shock-withdrawal-of-labour-party-favourite-to-replace-david

    At the 11th hour? Smacks of a bit of a shambles. They should have been certain of everything long before this.
    In Glasgow East they canceled the selection meeting when the favourite candidate withdrew at the last minute. I guess because the other 2 people on the shortlist were there just to make the numbers and the party couldn't afford to stand them (not that the outcome was positive in the end).
    Here they are going on. The hustings are taking place now. The other 3 left are probably judged decent enough.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    welshowl said:

    SeanT said:

    @SeanT

    You can add Helmut Kohl to that list.

    Architect of German Re-unification and the Euro.

    You jest?

    No architect of the euro can be classed as great. It's like saying the devisor of the Millennium Dome should get the Nobel.
    Not entirely jesting.
    The problem of the Euro is not the conception, but the implementation. A lot of countries were allowed to join for political reasons who failed to meet the convergence criteria.

    One could make a case that the structural unemployment and un-competitiveness of much of the UK is because the value of the pound is weighted to the South East, and that the remainder of the UK is penalised by being unable to depreciate against it. It is much the same problem as the PIGS have with the Euro.
    The problem with the Euro is its conception in its current form. The south east shares a govt with the north that raises and distributes taxes ( pensions, child benefit, heating allowance are the same in Newcastle and Cambridge), spend govt cash ( the DSS headquarters is in Newcastle not Cambridge) and crucially workers can ultimately "emigrate" from. Newcastle to Cambridge, same language same ( you know what I mean) culture.

    Munich does not share taxes, govt spending or language with Porto, Thessaloniki, Galway, Valencia etc hence the problem. Single currencies can survive without all the criteria above (Switzerland, Belgium, Ireland and UK 1922 -79) but not an absence of all three. Geneva shares taxes and a govt with Zurich if not a language. Galway shared a language with the UK ( hence Ireland effectively paid for currency union via emigration and depopulation from the 20s to the 70s).

    I have this very day returned from Germany where they think we are very smart for staying out and lament hugely the accidental unpopularity they are unjustifiably garnering in Southern Europe when they ( rightly) think a) nobody asked them if they wanted the Euro b) they've done nothing wrong other than be thrifty and efficient.
    I understand what you are getting at, monetary union without political union will put strains that either impoverish one country or result in exit. It is why I think Scotland should have its own floating pound, rather than rUK Sterling.

    I think that part of the un-competitiveness of some of the UK regions to the private sector are in part the transferences of wealth via benefits, national payscales for govt jobs and pensions. A Nurse can live well in Leics on a salary that would be a lot tighter in London.

    Welcome to PB, I also lurked a long time before posting.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189
    @TSE

    Nonsense! That's the South Atlantic! BTW did you see the top of the article:

    This article needs additional citations for verification. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed.
  • CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    De Gaulle should definitely be on the list. He gave France its self-respect back and his achievements were largely post-war.

    On no account should Franco be on the list. He was a murderous dictator. It's only because - for various reasons - the West turned a blind eye to what he did (largely because of the very much worse crimes of the Germans and the Russians, a sort of genocide-fatigue, Cold War real-politik and because, frankly, in the post-war world Spain did not matter) that more is not known about his crimes. See Paul Preston for instance.

    Nor should Pinochet be on the list. He may well have helped us over the Falklands but that does not excuse his crimes. The way the Tories came to his defence as if he was just some kindly old gentleman who'd been unfairly traduced was, frankly, sickening. It should be possible to thank a dictator for his help on one occasion while remaining clear-sighted about the fact that he was a dictator and no democrat.

    I would put Vaclav Havel on the list. The conscience of Czechoslovakia and other enslaved Eastern European countries.
  • @Welshowl

    I have this very day returned from Germany where they think we are very smart for staying out and lament hugely the accidental unpopularity they are unjustifiably garnering in Southern Europe when they ( rightly) think a) nobody asked them if they wanted the Euro b) they've done nothing wrong other than be thrifty and efficient.

    Which is all very well but of course it is quite probable that the value of the Euro internationally is significantly lower for Germany than if Germany still had the Deutshmark and as such chances are their exports would have been far more expensive and they would not be quite economic powerhouse they currently are. In that way just as Southern Europe is disadvantaged by the EUro Germany has benefitted.

    Furthermore given it is the German Government that is driving the particularly harsh conditions being imposed on PIGS nations one can hardly say the anger towards Germany is 'accidental'. That is particularly so given that Germany alongside the rest of the EU membership allowed countries to join such as Greece whose economies were not up to scratch in the first place.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    I keep getting this error when trying to sign in to comment:

    Error 503 Service Unavailable

    Service Unavailable
    Guru Meditation:
    XID: 230482105
    Varnish cache server

    Does this mean we have to put some more coins in the vanillameter?
  • PBModeratorPBModerator Posts: 662
    Test
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Thanks for the welcome. Yeah agree with your points. Nurses do better relatively in Merthyr than Hampstead hence the ( stifled) debate on regional pay. Of course the unions objected viewing it as an excuse to (relatively) cut pay in Merthyr compared to Hampstead. Think we need an honest debate on this one is it 's no good crowding out the much needed private sector in S Wales (say) and having shortages of nurses and firemen in Glenda's neck of the woods. Sure housing provision is a huge factor there too, but the knee jerk "regional pay is a bad thing" is a tad simplistic.

    By the way re the Germans and the Euro: I have visited Germany hundreds of times over the past thirty years before during and after the Euro debate. I have yet to meet a single one personally ( I'm sure they must exist somewhere) that wanted to give up the D Mark. They were right too, for their own and indeed Europe's sake.
  • PlatoPlato Posts: 15,724
    RT @britishbullybee: I like William Hague’s slapdown – we can afford to pay for the funeral out of the £21 billion Maggie’s rebate from the EU has gained us
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 121,208
    Indian sand sculpture tribute to Thatcher
    http://english.sina.com/world/p/2013/0410/580403.html
  • GrandioseGrandiose Posts: 2,323
    edited April 2013
    Gah, I had a full reply to SeanT written out about Franco and I've lost it.

    In summary -
    The Republicans' shift towards Communism happened mainly during the war, and not before (there was a similar shift, though not as great, in respect of the Nationalists)

    Extrajudical killings by Republicans were about 40,000 and Nationalists about 150,000, maybe more.

    Anticlericalism was well established in Spain, so there were more than a negligible number of killings of the clergy in Nationalist zones, although the vast majority of the 7,000 or so believed killed were killed by Republicans

    Killings in Republican zones were generally the result of the breakdown of law and order, allowing in Communist and Anarchist vigilantés. Killings in the Nationalist zone were dominated by orchestrated planned killings in retaken territory.

    If there's a redeeming feature of Franco, he didn't co-operate much with the Germans.
  • Mick_PorkMick_Pork Posts: 6,530
    Pong said:

    I keep getting this error when trying to sign in to comment:

    Error 503 Service Unavailable

    Service Unavailable
    Guru Meditation:
    XID: 230482105
    Varnish cache server

    Does this mean we have to put some more coins in the vanillameter?

    No it's not just you and it's getting worse. The loading times have gradually been increasing as well.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    We seem to be having a problem with Vanilla

    I have no idea how to fix it
  • @Welshowl

    I have yet to meet a single one personally ( I'm sure they must exist somewhere) that wanted to give up the D Mark.

    Yet they have been content to elect government after government that has been pro-Euro and pro-EU. Ironic that......
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    http://status.vanillaforums.com/

    They're aware of the issue & working on it.
  • @mikesmithson

    There's an issue with vanilla worldwide

    http://status.vanillaforums.com/
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    The server was trying to withdraw itself along with Cllr Mark Walsh.
  • carlcarl Posts: 750
    Plato said:

    RT @britishbullybee: I like William Hague’s slapdown – we can afford to pay for the funeral out of the £21 billion Maggie’s rebate from the EU has gained us

    There's me thinking THERE IS NO MONEY.

    Suddenly there is.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Good evening (eventually), everyone.

    Doing a post-war list of top leaders?

    Obscurity is forever, as a Corsican once said. The Metelli dominated Roman politics in the period between the Third Punic War and the Jugurthan War (when a Metellus was consul and temporarily Marius' patron/sponsor), but because that isn't as well-documented as the clashes with Carthage or the bloody demise of the Republic they're far less well-known. It was interesting to learn more about them in the lengthily entitled but very enjoyable The Crisis of Rome: The Jugurthine and Northern Wars and the Rise of Marius.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Oh, and I'm pretty sure I linked to my review before, but here it is again: http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/review-crisis-of-rome-jugurthine-and.html
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    This has been a Vanilla problem
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    South Shields: Labour have picked the media studies graduate.

    Time to back UKIP?
  • Paywall

    Several wealthy Conservative donors who once paid £50,000-a-year to dine with David Cameron and Cabinet ministers have defected to UKIP.

    The Eurosceptic party, which secured its best by-election result in February when it came second in Eastleigh, wants to secure its first elected MP in the 2015 general election. It has has begun targeting wealthy businessmen, inviting them to private dinners with Nigel Farage, the party leader, at a London flat.

    The party, which has reached 17 per cent in recent national polls, says it will spend more than £100,000 on the local elections next month and hopes to field 1,700 candidates.
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    Cllr Emma Lewell-Buck selected in South Shields
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    The Ukip candidate in S Shields had been leading a well publicised campaign against Tyne Tunnel tolls. This is from mid-March - well before MiiD made his move.


    http://www.shieldsgazette.com/news/business/latest-news/drivers-support-campaign-to-scrap-tunnel-tolls-1-5505163
  • SeanT said:

    I'd just like to point out, for the 95th time, that I suggested Borussia Dortmund as a good bet for the UEFA Champions League IN THE FIRST ROUND, when no one knew who they were. I did this after watching them for just 20 minutes against Man City, and seeing how fast and ruthless they could be.

    At that point that were 21/1 against.

    They are now in the semifinal.

    I hope you'll be writing for the Telegraph sports blogs as well.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Mr. Eagles (and Mr. T), I feel it necessary to report that I would be willing to write about F1 in exchange for money.
  • NeilNeil Posts: 7,983
    welshowl said:

    Nurses do better relatively in Merthyr than Hampstead hence the ( stifled) debate on regional pay. Of course the unions objected viewing it as an excuse to (relatively) cut pay in Merthyr compared to Hampstead.

    Of course it was only ever going to be an excuse to cut pay in some regions given the current fiscal conditions. Which is why backbench Tory MPs from those regions were also against it.

  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,557
    Oh, and speaking of which, the pb2 early discussion thread is bubbling along nicely:
    http://politicalbetting.blogspot.co.uk/2013/04/china-early-discussion.html

    Most of the conversation is revolving around Massa's prospects, and the gulfing chasm in the odds between him and Alonso for pole or the win.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,216
    South Shields Labour Candidate:

    "I was always interested in politics in particular the socialist aspect Labour from an early age, I have a long legacy of shipyard workers in my family who where always discussing the issues of the day. Since then I went on to graduate with a BA (Hons) in Politics and Media Studies from Northumbria University. It was after I graduated that I became more involved in local politics, I was subsequently elected in 2004 and was again honoured to be re-elected in 2006. In this time I have also graduated with a Masters in Social work from Durham University and am employed as a Social worker."

    http://www.southtyneside.info/applications/2/councillorsandcommittees/councillorhomepage.aspx?id=44
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 51,189
    edited April 2013
    test

    EDIT had some issues posting a short while ago. Seems to be OK now - I hope!
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    @Welshowl

    I have this very day returned
    from Germany where they think we are very smart for staying out and lament hugely the accidental unpopularity they are unjustifiably garnering in Southern Europe when they ( rightly) think a) nobody asked them if they wanted the Euro b) they've done nothing wrong other than be thrifty and efficient.


    Which is all very well but of course it is quite probable that the value of the Euro internationally is significantly lower for Germany than if Germany still had the Deutshmark and as such chances are their exports would have been far more expensive and they would not be quite economic powerhouse they currently are. In that way just as Southern Europe is disadvantaged by the EUro Germany has benefitted.

    Furthermore given it is the German Government that is driving the particularly harsh conditions being imposed on PIGS nations one can hardly say the anger towards Germany is 'accidental'. That is particularly so given that Germany alongside the rest of the EU membership allowed countries to join such as Greece whose economies were not up to scratch in the first place.

    Sure Germany is benefitting from a currency undervaluation (30%?). But my point about "accidental" unpopularity distinguishes between the German govt and people. The people were not asked if they wished to give up the D Mark. They would've voted " nein", scuppering the Euro at birth, and with it improving the lot of million now in S Europe. The German trade surplus would be less contributing to less imbalances in Europe and villas in Majorca would be more attractive to the denizens of Duesseldorf. Where's the problem unless except forDelors/ Barrosoeesque swivelled eyed euro nuts?
  • eekeek Posts: 27,570

    This has been a Vanilla problem

    you may want to look at moot.it then. That would also solve your costs issue.
  • Adenauer and De Gaulle both have to be on Sean's list. Indeed, they'd be ahead of Thatcher on the global list of great post-war politicians (and that's not denying Thatcher a good place at the table by any means).

    For Adenauer, to be honest, rebuilding a shattered nation after Hitler was a bit more impressive than doing so after Jim Callaghan. For De Gaulle, he was just such a key figure in both creating modern France (which again was more of a mess in 1958 than we were in 1979) and modern Europe - more than Maggie for the UK.

    As well as the dictators (who had an, er, mixed record), two of Sean's other examples - Pope John Paul II and Lech Walesa - are pretty questionable. Walesa was a great dissident but pretty mediocre politician - he lasted one term as Polish President and, great hero to his nation though he is, just isn't Big League. As to John Paul II - affable fellow though he no doubt was, I'm not really sure what the case is for him being a great politician. Indeed, he presided over a period where the Catholic Church basically failed to respond in a meaningful way to AIDS, internal abuses, and rapid social change.
This discussion has been closed.