politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Deal or no deal
Ladbrokes have a market up on a few Brexit related markets, out of these three I’m quite keen to take the 6/4 on there being no Brexit deal being agreed before the 1st of April 2019.
Yes agree the 6/4 is good, although the risk is that the withdrawal agreement is skimpy and commits a further deal on formal trade at end of transition, but still counts as a withdrawal agreement for the purposes of this market.
A50 extension looks to me the most plausible get-out mechanism from here, so i wouldn't touch the 2nd referendum at 5/1.
To qualify as a deal it has to be agreed by the Uk and EU, but do all these steps have to be completed before the date to satisfy the bet? From the wording I would assume yes. So a deal secured before the date but ratified/confirmed afterwards is a 'no deal in time' outcome?
I think TSE is misreading this. The key bit is the definition of a deal as 'A withdrawal agreement under Article 50(2)'. That is highly likely, unless talks break down in total acrimony (possible, but disastrous for both sides). That doesn't mean that everything will be decided or that exact nature of the long-term relationship will be clear; no doubt the exit deal will contain a lot of fudge. But it is likely to exist. I'd want quite a bit more than 6/4 on a total crash-out.
You think that we wouldn't come to an agreement that our standards for aerospace parts matches (via ISO) that of the EU?
The EU nations are not going to cut their own balls off to please the commission.
That’s pretty much every Boeing and every Airbus flying, plus Bombardier and many more. Are the EU so determined to make Brexit Hell for Britain, that they’re willing to completely undermine their reputation with every other country on Earth?
Either the UK does a Norway, or the Airbus wings will move from Broughton to Toulouse.
And all of the existing planes that have UK made components (basically every single plane in the world)?
Flying will get more expensive.
I know the situation is more extreme for aerospace than for most other industries, but other industries do have similar issues, and all will have to deal with the new border. Either the UK leaves the EU but pays to effectively stay in, or all sorts of businesses will drift overseas.
Or more likely some rubber stamping will take place and the CAA will get some kind of equivalency.
I think TSE is misreading this. The key bit is the definition of a deal as 'A withdrawal agreement under Article 50(2)'. That is highly likely, unless talks break down in total acrimony (possible, but disastrous for both sides). That doesn't mean that everything will be decided; no doubt the exit deal will contain a lot of fudge. But it is likely to exist. I'd want quite a bit more than 6/4 on a total crash-out.
Agreed. Leaving without an Article 50 Withdrawal Agreement is highly unlikely. Even the "No deal" Deal nonsense is a Withdrawal Agreement. And we will probably agree the €50 billion, or whatever.
FPT Considering the international basis of the aerospace business, I sincerely hope that no-one with a vested interest in that business was daft enough to vote for Brexit. Unpicking the arrangements that have built up over the last 40 years will take years. If any of the firms survive that long.
On topic - I'd need to know what "no deal" entails. There are loads of types of no deal, if it means absolutely no agreements on anything with the EU and them trying to acrimoniously block our accession to the WTO then I'd want a lot more than what is on offer, if it is just an agreed "no deal" but still tying up a lot of loose ends and doing the main administration work with the EU to facilitate some kind of future trade deal.
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our public finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
Question: Does the WTO principle of non discrimination apply within FTA deals or only for base WTO rules? In other words, could an FTA provide legal cover for treating the Irish land border differently to the channel border, even without any formal customs union?
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our puqblic finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
I don't see people on the streets because the EMA and EBA relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.
True. But there's no good Brexit news is there? It's going to be like this every day for a thousand days. Eventually it will take its toll.
Even the fanatics are peppering their posts with qualifications nowadays, like "in the long term", when talking about the upside. Even if they are right (and the explanations as to how this upside might arise always seem rather hazy), Corbyn will probably be in power on the back of a counter-reaction to the short term downside by then, rendering future predictions of sunlight and high ground somewhat brave.
I'm not betting on such markets because of definitional concerns. I'm in the "no deal" camp, but "no deal" could include pretty minimal deals that would put me the wrong side of the line for a bet.
I'm more comfortable betting on the exit date. Betting on Betfair's market on the Brexit date must be the best value bet out there at the moment. I topped up at 2.36 this morning - this must be something more like a 1/4 shot at present.
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our public finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
Question: Does the WTO principle of non discrimination apply within FTA deals or only for base WTO rules? In other words, could an FTA provide legal cover for treating the Irish land border differently to the channel border, even without any formal customs union?
These are the issues that some tame brains need to be exploring. Ireland is going to require some exceptions to the exisiting order. I can see there being a series of "temporary" measures that somehow, nobody ever quite gets round to ending...
I'm not betting on such markets because of definitional concerns. I'm in the "no deal" camp, but "no deal" could include pretty minimal deals that would put me the wrong side of the line for a bet.
I'm more comfortable betting on the exit date. Betting on Betfair's market on the Brexit date must be the best value bet out there at the moment. I topped up at 2.38 this morning - this must be something more like a 1/4 shot at present.
Not in this market myself, but this feels like one of those where all the chatter is about the less likely probability of the date being extended/missed because the deadline being hit with a boring deal won't sell papers.
Not massively dissimiliar to will X* survive - the answer is generally they'll keep going.
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our public finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
Question: Does the WTO principle of non discrimination apply within FTA deals or only for base WTO rules? In other words, could an FTA provide legal cover for treating the Irish land border differently to the channel border, even without any formal customs union?
These are the issues that some tame brains need to be exploring. Ireland is going to require some exceptions to the exisiting order. I can see there being a series of "temporary" measures that somehow, nobody ever quite gets round to ending...
Ireland has a unique current & historical relationship with the UK. The EU needs to recognise this I think.
"No deal" requires a level of flouncing fuckwittery that only a supra-national organisation unnaccountable to it peoples could ever countenance.
Oh.
The Conservative Party are by no means supra-national and they are accountable to the electorate every five years, but the remainder of your analysis of them is spot-on!
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our public finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
Question: Does the WTO principle of non discrimination apply within FTA deals or only for base WTO rules? In other words, could an FTA provide legal cover for treating the Irish land border differently to the channel border, even without any formal customs union?
These are the issues that some tame brains need to be exploring. Ireland is going to require some exceptions to the exisiting order. I can see there being a series of "temporary" measures that somehow, nobody ever quite gets round to ending...
Ireland has a unique current & historical relationship with the UK. The EU needs to recognise this I think.
It is. That's why it's standing behind Ireland's position.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Well if they head off to stokes croft area of town it is more than likely to happen.
An even more bonkers one was effectively charge the university for council tax on student accommodation. I mean the uni already is more elitist than oxbridge, sticking another £3k on the cost of a room per year will really help.
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our puqblic finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
I don't see people on the streets because the EMA and EBA relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.
True. But there's no good Brexit news is there? It's going to be like this every day for a thousand days. Eventually it will take its toll.
Even the fanatics are peppering their posts with qualifications nowadays, like "in the long term", when talking about the upside. Even if they are right (and the explanations as to how this upside might arise always seem rather hazy), Corbyn will probably be in power on the back of a counter-reaction to the short term downside by then, rendering future predictions of sunlight and high ground somewhat brave.
At the moment, the economic news is pretty good, but of course, Brexit has not yet taken place.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
With the growth in international travel I expect ways for government to make some sort of levy on tourists will become increasingly common worldwide. Arguably initiatives such as the US ESTA and the threatened EU equivalent are in this category, the security benefits being somewhat unclear.
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our puqblic finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
I don't see people on the streets because the EMA and EBA relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.
True. But there's no good Brexit news is there? It's going to be like this every day for a thousand days. Eventually it will take its toll.
Even the fanatics are peppering their posts with qualifications nowadays, like "in the long term", when talking about the upside. Even if they are right (and the explanations as to how this upside might arise always seem rather hazy), Corbyn will probably be in power on the back of a counter-reaction to the short term downside by then, rendering future predictions of sunlight and high ground somewhat brave.
At the moment, the economic news is pretty good, but of course, Brexit has not yet taken place.
I agree that it is simply too early to say.
My point was simply that the magnitude of the promised benefits seems to be shrinking and the timescale seems to be receding, even amongst true believers.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
With the growth in international travel I expect ways for government to make some sort of levy on tourists will become increasingly common worldwide. Arguably initiatives such as the US ESTA and the threatened EU equivalent are in this category, the security benefits being somewhat unclear.
There is/was a nominal tax on airline travel to fund Global Fund against Aids, TB and Malaria in a lot of coutnries I think.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
They said that income tax rises would only be for those on more than £80k a year - which after five years of inflation, devaluation and union pressure under Corbyn’s Venezuelanomics will probably be somewhere around the minimum wage...
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Simpler than you might imagine. We paid the tourist tax last time we were in Switzerland. A couple of Swiss Francs per person per night, collected by the accommodation provider.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
I've had my fill of Brexit.It's like watching a car crash in slow motion and I expect the worst-the 1,000s of job losses showing much of what was derided as Project Fear was in fact real except for the hubris of George Osborne who did more than most to win it for Leave by his conssitency over-egging the pudding. It's food prices,not Brexit,that's the sublect of my bus stop conversations,as well as the law and rules regarding the vapourisation of nicotine within bus shelters.I'm all Brexited out.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Simpler than you might imagine. We paid the tourist tax last time we were in Switzerland. A couple of Swiss Francs per person per night, collected by the accommodation provider.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
Don’t most major cities do the same, a small tax on hotel rooms? Almost everywhere I stay - even Dubai - has tourist taxes of one sort or another.
I've had my fill of Brexit.It's like watching a car crash in slow motion and I expect the worst-the 1,000s of job losses showing much of what was derided as Project Fear was in fact real except for the hubris of George Osborne who did more than most to win it for Leave by his conssitency over-egging the pudding. It's food prices,not Brexit,that's the sublect of my bus stop conversations,as well as the law and rules regarding the vapourisation of nicotine within bus shelters.I'm all Brexited out.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
They said that income tax rises would only be for those on more than £80k a year - which after five years of inflation, devaluation and union pressure under Corbyn’s Venezuelanomics will probably be somewhere around the minimum wage...
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Simpler than you might imagine. We paid the tourist tax last time we were in Switzerland. A couple of Swiss Francs per person per night, collected by the accommodation provider.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
Airbnb has driven a hole straight through this method.
I've had my fill of Brexit.It's like watching a car crash in slow motion and I expect the worst-the 1,000s of job losses showing much of what was derided as Project Fear was in fact real except for the hubris of George Osborne who did more than most to win it for Leave by his conssitency over-egging the pudding. It's food prices,not Brexit,that's the sublect of my bus stop conversations,as well as the law and rules regarding the vapourisation of nicotine within bus shelters.I'm all Brexited out.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Simpler than you might imagine. We paid the tourist tax last time we were in Switzerland. A couple of Swiss Francs per person per night, collected by the accommodation provider.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
A national scheme is different to one proposed for Bristol though...
I've had my fill of Brexit.It's like watching a car crash in slow motion and I expect the worst-the 1,000s of job losses showing much of what was derided as Project Fear was in fact real except for the hubris of George Osborne who did more than most to win it for Leave by his conssitency over-egging the pudding. It's food prices,not Brexit,that's the sublect of my bus stop conversations,as well as the law and rules regarding the vapourisation of nicotine within bus shelters.I'm all Brexited out.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
They said that income tax rises would only be for those on more than £80k a year - which after five years of inflation, devaluation and union pressure under Corbyn’s Venezuelanomics will probably be somewhere around the minimum wage...
It's tomorrow's budget we need to worry about.
Tomorrow's budget is absolutely critical to the credibility of this government, far more than many Tories appear to realise. If they aren't willing (or able) to be bold in addressing the gross iniquity of the current economic settlement, they will simply be providing kindling for the fire Corbyn's Labour wants to set alight in a few years' time.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Simpler than you might imagine. We paid the tourist tax last time we were in Switzerland. A couple of Swiss Francs per person per night, collected by the accommodation provider.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
Airbnb has driven a hole straight through this method.
It won't be long until Airbnb becomes the collection agent for any tourist taxes.
Six Syrian 'ISIS plotters' are arrested in Germany over plan to 'attack Christmas market on the anniversary of Berlin atrocity.
The six suspects were identified as Syrian citizens aged between 20 and 28 who arrived in Germany as asylum-seekers between December 2014 and September 2015. Their names were withheld under strict German privacy laws.
The men, who are allegedly members of ISIS, are accused of 'having prepared an attack with weapons and explosives on a public target in Germany.'
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Simpler than you might imagine. We paid the tourist tax last time we were in Switzerland. A couple of Swiss Francs per person per night, collected by the accommodation provider.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
Airbnb has driven a hole straight through this method.
It won't be long until Airbnb becomes the collection agent for any tourist taxes.
I can just see the sprouting up of hotels just on the outskirts of Bristols...
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
They said that income tax rises would only be for those on more than £80k a year - which after five years of inflation, devaluation and union pressure under Corbyn’s Venezuelanomics will probably be somewhere around the minimum wage...
That will be their position until it doesn't work our economically, and then they'll blame bankers and the rich for not doing their share and requiring more tax rises on the middle.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Simpler than you might imagine. We paid the tourist tax last time we were in Switzerland. A couple of Swiss Francs per person per night, collected by the accommodation provider.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
Airbnb has driven a hole straight through this method.
It won't be long until Airbnb becomes the collection agent for any tourist taxes.
I can just see the sprouting up of hotels just on the outskirts of Bristols...
When the Welsh implement their booze tax, they can combine booze outlet and hotels on the same site.
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our puqblic finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
I don't see people on the streets because the EMA and EBA relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.
True. But there's no good Brexit news is there? It's going to be like this every day for a thousand days. Eventually it will take its toll.
Even the fanatics are peppering their posts with qualifications nowadays, like "in the long term", when talking about the upside. Even if they are right (and the explanations as to how this upside might arise always seem rather hazy), Corbyn will probably be in power on the back of a counter-reaction to the short term downside by then, rendering future predictions of sunlight and high ground somewhat brave.
At the moment, the economic news is pretty good, but of course, Brexit has not yet taken place.
I agree that it is simply too early to say.
My point was simply that the magnitude of the promised benefits seems to be shrinking and the timescale seems to be receding, even amongst true believers.
I would say the economy has performed far closer to the Leave campaign's predictions to the Remain campaign's predictions to date.
I have also asked Remain voters predicting "the economy will go off a cliff" to quantify what that means in terms of length of recession or GDP reduction of unemployment rate. So far not a single person will put a stake in the ground. I am guessing because they know it won't be that bad and don't want to look silly with a falsifiable prediction or to admit we will have a mild slowdown at worse.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our puqblic finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
I don't see people on the streets because the EMA and EBA relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.
True. But there's no good Brexit news is there? It's going to be like this every day for a thousand days. Eventually it will take its toll.
Even the fanatics are peppering their posts with qualifications nowadays, like "in the long term", when talking about the upside. Even if they are right (and the explanations as to how this upside might arise always seem rather hazy), Corbyn will probably be in power on the back of a counter-reaction to the short term downside by then, rendering future predictions of sunlight and high ground somewhat brave.
At the moment, the economic news is pretty good, but of course, Brexit has not yet taken place.
I agree that it is simply too early to say.
My point was simply that the magnitude of the promised benefits seems to be shrinking and the timescale seems to be receding, even amongst true believers.
I would say the economy has performed far closer to the Leave campaign's predictions to the Remain campaign's predictions to date.
I have also asked Remain voters predicting "the economy will go off a cliff" to quantify what that means in terms of length of recession or GDP reduction of unemployment rate. So far not a single person will put a stake in the ground. I am guessing because they know it won't be that bad and don't want to look silly with a falsifiable prediction or to admit we will have a mild slowdown at worse.
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
Love the "tax on tourists" to Bristol. How is THAT going to work? Shame them for looking at all that heritage built on the profits of slavery? Or maybe there could just be an element of chance - have some of them robbed of all their possessions at gunpoint, by a Momentum member dressed as a highwayman perhaps?
Simpler than you might imagine. We paid the tourist tax last time we were in Switzerland. A couple of Swiss Francs per person per night, collected by the accommodation provider.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
Airbnb has driven a hole straight through this method.
It won't be long until Airbnb becomes the collection agent for any tourist taxes.
I can just see the sprouting up of hotels just on the outskirts of Bristols...
Lots of old seaside hotels in Clevedon and Weston that could be refurbished
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our puqblic finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
I don't see people on the streets because the EMA and EBA relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.
True. But there's no good Brexit news is there? It's going to be like this every day for a thousand days. Eventually it will take its toll.
At the moment, the economic news is pretty good, but of course, Brexit has not yet taken place.
I agree that it is simply too early to say.
My point was simply that the magnitude of the promised benefits seems to be shrinking and the timescale seems to be receding, even amongst true believers.
I would say the economy has performed far closer to the Leave campaign's predictions to the Remain campaign's predictions to date.
I have also asked Remain voters predicting "the economy will go off a cliff" to quantify what that means in terms of length of recession or GDP reduction of unemployment rate. So far not a single person will put a stake in the ground. I am guessing because they know it won't be that bad and don't want to look silly with a falsifiable prediction or to admit we will have a mild slowdown at worse.
Patience remains a virtue.
So when do you think the negative effects will hit and how bad will it be? 6% unemployment? 8%? 10%?
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
They said that income tax rises would only be for those on more than £80k a year - which after five years of inflation, devaluation and union pressure under Corbyn’s Venezuelanomics will probably be somewhere around the minimum wage...
That will be their position until it doesn't work our economically, and then they'll blame bankers and the rich for not doing their share and requiring more tax rises on the middle.
I think the Ireland issue is a genuine shock. They thought they could ignore it.
On balance, I expect us to stay in the Single Market and Custom Union, or negotiate to join if we do crash out without a deal, which we probably won't.
I wish you were right. I can't see how the majority for staying in the customs union comes about though? That would be backpedalling even beyond the above for this Government, and was it only 76 MPs who voted along those lines last night. How does it happen?
Give it time. There is a lot of un the EU's terms.
I don't see people on the streets because the EMA and EBA relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.
True. But there's no good Brexit news is there? It's going to be like this every day for a thousand days. Eventually it will take its toll.
Even the fanatics are peppering their posts with qualifications nowadays, like "in the long term", when talking about the upside. Even if they are right (and the explanations as to how this upside might arise always seem rather hazy), Corbyn will probably be in power on the back of a counter-reaction to the short term downside by then, rendering future predictions of sunlight and high ground somewhat brave.
At the moment, the economic news is pretty good, but of course, Brexit has not yet taken place.
I agree that it is simply too early to say.
My point was simply that the magnitude of the promised benefits seems to be shrinking and the timescale seems to be receding, even amongst true believers.
I would say the economy has performed far closer to the Leave campaign's predictions to the Remain campaign's predictions to date.
I have also asked Remain voters predicting "the economy will go off a cliff" to quantify what that means in terms of length of recession or GDP reduction of unemployment rate. So far not a single person will put a stake in the ground. I am guessing because they know it won't be that bad and don't want to look silly with a falsifiable prediction or to admit we will have a mild slowdown at worse.
Well as we know in one sense the economy did go off a cliff on the day after the vote.
Other than that most credible forecasts simply had wealth foregone. Such as the famous £4,300 per household by 2030.
I have also asked Remain voters predicting "the economy will go off a cliff" to quantify what that means in terms of length of recession or GDP reduction of unemployment rate. So far not a single person will put a stake in the ground. I am guessing because they know it won't be that bad and don't want to look silly with a falsifiable prediction or to admit we will have a mild slowdown at worse.
I quantified it, admittedly rather roughly, before the referendum as:
1. 0% chance of the economy benefiting (there simply isn't any mechanism)
2. 10% chance of little discernible effect, assuming a smooth transition to a favourable trade deal
3. 10% chance of a downturn comparable to that we experienced following the global financial crisis of 2007/8
4. 80% chance of a significant but not disastrous effect on growth compared with our peers - say between 1% and 2% less growth over several years.
My view now is not changed very much, except that I think we can rule out the second possibility now, and the chance of a really serious downturn is looking rather higher, given the lack of progress in the negotiations and the political chaos here.
If you factor in the Corbyn effect, which is a direct effect of the referendum result, probably now something like 35% scenario 3 and 65% scenario 4.
Give it time. There is a lot of unravelling of false assumptions to go through. Yesterday we had two major institutions moving away; a couple of banks announcing their moves, the EU clarifying that the FTA means no provision for financial services, which are our strong point. Today we have a Brexit-related deterioration in our puqblic finances. It will be an endless stream of dreary news from now on. Eventually people will ask, why are we doing this, and look for an out. That out will be on the EU's terms.
I don't see people on the streets because the EMA and EBA relocated to Amsterdam and Paris.
True. But there's no good Brexit news is there? It's going to be like this every day for a thousand days. Eventually it will take its toll.
At the moment, the economic news is pretty good, but of course, Brexit has not yet taken place.
I agree that it is simply too early to say.
My point was simply that the magnitude of the promised benefits seems to be shrinking and the timescale seems to be receding, even amongst true believers.
I would say the economy has performed far closer to the Leave campaign's predictions to the Remain campaign's predictions to date.
I have also asked Remain voters predicting "the economy will go off a cliff" to quantify what that means in terms of length of recession or GDP reduction of unemployment rate. So far not a single person will put a stake in the ground. I am guessing because they know it won't be that bad and don't want to look silly with a falsifiable prediction or to admit we will have a mild slowdown at worse.
Patience remains a virtue.
So when do you think the negative effects will hit and how bad will it be? 6% unemployment? 8%? 10%?
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
And how is that working out? The UK has never been more feeble or insular in foreign policy, or looked less self-assured in international trade.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Better be inside the bloc pressing to make it less protectionalist, as Britain has being doing for so many years, than outside in the cold, p*ssing in the wind.
Tories forget that almost all of the key EU acts went through under Mrs T, who despite all her personal convictions never suggested that we should leave.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
And how is that working out? The UK has never been more feeble or insular in foreign policy, or looked less self-assured in international trade.
That's a reaction to rising power in the east and it is true of all western nations, the US is struggling with the same problem, for example.
The EU isn't the answer to any of those questions.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc which implies being open to the world and its citizenry. And...getting the foreigners out.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Better be inside the bloc pressing to make it less protectionalist, as Britain has being doing for so many years, than outside in the cold, p*ssing in the wind.
Tories forget that almost all of the key EU acts went through under Mrs T, who despite all her personal convictions never suggested that we should leave.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Better be inside the bloc pressing to make it less protectionalist, as Britain has being doing for so many years, than outside in the cold, p*ssing in the wind.
Tories forget that almost all of the key EU acts went through under Mrs T, who despite all her personal convictions never suggested that we should leave.
We tried that for 40 years. It didn't work.
I mean are we talking economically speaking here? What has not worked?
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc which implies being open to the world and its citizenry. And...getting the foreigners out.
Have I got that right?
Again, please don't put words in my mouth. People voted for different reasons, one of those was wanting to get out of a protectionist, inward looking bloc. If you can't see that then it's not my problem and it's also not worth continuing this conversation given how far apart we are on the issue of Brexit.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Better be inside the bloc pressing to make it less protectionalist, as Britain has being doing for so many years, than outside in the cold, p*ssing in the wind.
Tories forget that almost all of the key EU acts went through under Mrs T, who despite all her personal convictions never suggested that we should leave.
We tried that for 40 years. It didn't work.
In that time we achieved:
- The completion of the single market within the EU - The implementation of zero-tariff trade for all least developed countries - The creation of the WTO - The signing of a range of FTAs to go deeper than the already liberalised multilateral trade environment (more than the USA)
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
"The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook."
Undoubtedly the good citizens of Port Talbot were voting so that they could embrace cheap Chinese steel imports.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc which implies being open to the world and its citizenry. And...getting the foreigners out.
Have I got that right?
Again, please don't put words in my mouth. People voted for different reasons, one of those was wanting to get out of a protectionist, inward looking bloc. If you can't see that then it's not my problem and it's also not worth continuing this conversation given how far apart we are on the issue of Brexit.
Some voted to get out of an inward-looking bloc. Some voted to get out of an expansionist bloc...
Eesh, I've got the same betting position as Guido.
Should I be worried that I've got big reds against the top three favourites for the Tory crown?
I'm also laying Jacob Rees-Mogg, though not to Guido levels (just about exactly £1000 for me). He's one of my three big losers for next Prime Minister / next Conservative leader, Jeremy Corbyn and Philip Hammond being the other two.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Better be inside the bloc pressing to make it less protectionalist, as Britain has being doing for so many years, than outside in the cold, p*ssing in the wind.
Tories forget that almost all of the key EU acts went through under Mrs T, who despite all her personal convictions never suggested that we should leave.
Has the EU become less protectionist and inward looking since the UK joined? Doesn't look like it.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc which implies being open to the world and its citizenry. And...getting the foreigners out.
Have I got that right?
Again, please don't put words in my mouth. People voted for different reasons, one of those was wanting to get out of a protectionist, inward looking bloc. If you can't see that then it's not my problem and it's also not worth continuing this conversation given how far apart we are on the issue of Brexit.
Whatever our positions on Brexit I am interested by what you are writing. As far as I can wee you are saying people voted for different reasons.
Some voted to be less protectionist and inward looking, while others voted to get the foreigners out which I think counts as protectionist and inward looking. Maybe some voted both to be less protectionist and inward looking and to get the foreigners out.
Eesh, I've got the same betting position as Guido.
Should I be worried that I've got big reds against the top three favourites for the Tory crown?
I'm also laying Jacob Rees-Mogg, though not to Guido levels (just about exactly £1000 for me). He's one of my three big losers for next Prime Minister / next Conservative leader, Jeremy Corbyn and Philip Hammond being the other two.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
"The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook."
Undoubtedly the good citizens of Port Talbot were voting so that they could embrace cheap Chinese steel imports.
And American chemical chicken, plastic cheese, eggs that need to be refrigerated, and chocolate made from already stale milk.
Eesh, I've got the same betting position as Guido.
Should I be worried that I've got big reds against the top three favourites for the Tory crown?
I'm also laying Jacob Rees-Mogg, though not to Guido levels (just about exactly £1000 for me). He's one of my three big losers for next Prime Minister / next Conservative leader, Jeremy Corbyn and Philip Hammond being the other two.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Better be inside the bloc pressing to make it less protectionalist, as Britain has being doing for so many years, than outside in the cold, p*ssing in the wind.
Tories forget that almost all of the key EU acts went through under Mrs T, who despite all her personal convictions never suggested that we should leave.
Has the EU become less protectionist and inward looking since the UK joined? Doesn't look like it.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
"The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook."
Undoubtedly the good citizens of Port Talbot were voting so that they could embrace cheap Chinese steel imports.
And American chemical chicken, plastic cheese, eggs that need to be refrigerated, and chocolate made from already stale milk.
Are the good people of Port Talbot going to be forced to buy plastic American cheese only from now on?!
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
"The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook."
Undoubtedly the good citizens of Port Talbot were voting so that they could embrace cheap Chinese steel imports.
And American chemical chicken, plastic cheese, eggs that need to be refrigerated, and chocolate made from already stale milk.
Are the good people of Port Talbot going to be forced to buy plastic American cheese only from now on?!
No, I agree. My post was simply a rant against the s**t you have to eat whenever I visit America.
Eesh, I've got the same betting position as Guido.
Should I be worried that I've got big reds against the top three favourites for the Tory crown?
I'm also laying Jacob Rees-Mogg, though not to Guido levels (just about exactly £1000 for me). He's one of my three big losers for next Prime Minister / next Conservative leader, Jeremy Corbyn and Philip Hammond being the other two.
The day the nominations closed for the Labour leadership was probably PB’s most profitable day outside of a GE or referendum. My only regret is that I put a tenner on him at 100/1 and not my whole damn paycheck!
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
"The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook."
Undoubtedly the good citizens of Port Talbot were voting so that they could embrace cheap Chinese steel imports.
And American chemical chicken, plastic cheese, eggs that need to be refrigerated, and chocolate made from already stale milk.
Are the good people of Port Talbot going to be forced to buy plastic American cheese only from now on?!
No, I agree. My post was simply a rant against the s**t you have to eat whenever I visit America.
What nonsense. The choice of decent food in the US has expanded rapidly over the past 5-10 years.
As with everything in the US, it is a place of two extremes. You get the utter garbage food and you get super high quality stuff.
I have no idea. All I can see is that there are massive threats and risks with the path down which we are headed, exacerbated by the government still having no apparent coherent strategy, and that the basis for the promised upside from Brexit remains shaky at the very best. The trend of history over many decades is towards greater international collaboration, as technology and travel makes the world a smaller place, and seeking to isolate ourselves from this will likely put our country on the periphery of history as far as the 21st century is concerned, which is a tragedy given the central role we have been able to play over so many centuries past.
Please explain how removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc is isolationist? The whole point of Brexit is to give us a more global outlook. The EU is by design inwards looking, it's a major reason people voted to leave.
Oh thank god! You've seen the breakdown tables in the appendices to the main EURef ballot paper.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Did I say the word "only"? No. Don't put words in my mouth.
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc which implies being open to the world and its citizenry. And...getting the foreigners out.
Have I got that right?
Again, please don't put words in my mouth. People voted for different reasons, one of those was wanting to get out of a protectionist, inward looking bloc. If you can't see that then it's not my problem and it's also not worth continuing this conversation given how far apart we are on the issue of Brexit.
Whatever our positions on Brexit I am interested by what you are writing. As far as I can wee you are saying people voted for different reasons.
Some voted to be less protectionist and inward looking, while others voted to get the foreigners out which I think counts as protectionist and inward looking. Maybe some voted both to be less protectionist and inward looking and to get the foreigners out.
It's a funny old world, isn't it.
Nail -> head. Leave was won by a combination of those who disliked the EU because it was limiting to UK's global outlook, and those who disliked the EU because it was too open and letting immigrants in.
Ironically, Leave could not have won without those conflicting elements, but it also makes decisions now a tad more difficult.
Comments
A50 extension looks to me the most plausible get-out mechanism from here, so i wouldn't touch the 2nd referendum at 5/1.
We would be better off if the government was opening various deals at random.
To qualify as a deal it has to be agreed by the Uk and EU, but do all these steps have to be completed before the date to satisfy the bet? From the wording I would assume yes. So a deal secured before the date but ratified/confirmed afterwards is a 'no deal in time' outcome?
Oh.
I'm more comfortable betting on the exit date. Betting on Betfair's market on the Brexit date must be the best value bet out there at the moment. I topped up at 2.36 this morning - this must be something more like a 1/4 shot at present.
Not massively dissimiliar to will X* survive - the answer is generally they'll keep going.
X may or may not be in my avatar right now
£11k a year council tax for the 15,000 households in Bristol and up to 5% increase for the rest.
http://www.bristolpost.co.uk/news/bristol-news/increase-council-tax-200-richest-806346
Anybody really believe a jezza/ mcmao government would be limiting those tax rises to only those on big bucks?
An even more bonkers one was effectively charge the university for council tax on student accommodation. I mean the uni already is more elitist than oxbridge, sticking another £3k on the cost of a room per year will really help.
My point was simply that the magnitude of the promised benefits seems to be shrinking and the timescale seems to be receding, even amongst true believers.
Whether it's a good idea is another point, but at those levels we didn't really have a problem with it.
It's food prices,not Brexit,that's the sublect of my bus stop conversations,as well as the law and rules regarding the vapourisation of nicotine within bus shelters.I'm all Brexited out.
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/nov/21/uk-food-prices-la-nina-coffee-cocoa-brexit-inflation
http://www.newshub.co.nz/home/money/2017/11/butter-prices-rise-to-record-high.html
The six suspects were identified as Syrian citizens aged between 20 and 28 who arrived in Germany as asylum-seekers between December 2014 and September 2015. Their names were withheld under strict German privacy laws.
The men, who are allegedly members of ISIS, are accused of 'having prepared an attack with weapons and explosives on a public target in Germany.'
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-5103289/ISIS-plotters-held-Germany-market-attack-plan.html
I have also asked Remain voters predicting "the economy will go off a cliff" to quantify what that means in terms of length of recession or GDP reduction of unemployment rate. So far not a single person will put a stake in the ground. I am guessing because they know it won't be that bad and don't want to look silly with a falsifiable prediction or to admit we will have a mild slowdown at worse.
Other than that most credible forecasts simply had wealth foregone. Such as the famous £4,300 per household by 2030.
1. 0% chance of the economy benefiting (there simply isn't any mechanism)
2. 10% chance of little discernible effect, assuming a smooth transition to a favourable trade deal
3. 10% chance of a downturn comparable to that we experienced following the global financial crisis of 2007/8
4. 80% chance of a significant but not disastrous effect on growth compared with our peers - say between 1% and 2% less growth over several years.
My view now is not changed very much, except that I think we can rule out the second possibility now, and the chance of a really serious downturn is looking rather higher, given the lack of progress in the negotiations and the political chaos here.
If you factor in the Corbyn effect, which is a direct effect of the referendum result, probably now something like 35% scenario 3 and 65% scenario 4.
https://twitter.com/GuidoFawkes/status/932989059017912322
A reasonable idea for a bet but the time scale is a bit long for something that's quite short.
Should I be worried that I've got big reds against the top three favourites for the Tory crown?
So it was removing ourselves from a protectionist bloc that was the motivating factor? Gives me great comfort that it was nothing to do with getting the foreigners out an' all that which some - even on here - said it was.
Tories forget that almost all of the key EU acts went through under Mrs T, who despite all her personal convictions never suggested that we should leave.
The EU isn't the answer to any of those questions.
Remember before that what odds Cameron was when Howard stood down in 2005?
Your position is probably okay.
Have I got that right?
All together now:
"We want Queen Camilla!"
- The completion of the single market within the EU
- The implementation of zero-tariff trade for all least developed countries
- The creation of the WTO
- The signing of a range of FTAs to go deeper than the already liberalised multilateral trade environment (more than the USA)
It worked, and continues to work.
Undoubtedly the good citizens of Port Talbot were voting so that they could embrace cheap Chinese steel imports.
You takes your choice, and you pays your money.
Some voted to be less protectionist and inward looking, while others voted to get the foreigners out which I think counts as protectionist and inward looking. Maybe some voted both to be less protectionist and inward looking and to get the foreigners out.
It's a funny old world, isn't it.
Our government is entirely capable of countenancing said fuckwittery.
With the position of the US, where around half of all imports from LDCs are still subject to tariffs: https://www.un.org/ldcportal/united-states-imports-from-ldcs/
The day the nominations closed for the Labour leadership was probably PB’s most profitable day outside of a GE or referendum. My only regret is that I put a tenner on him at 100/1 and not my whole damn paycheck!
As with everything in the US, it is a place of two extremes. You get the utter garbage food and you get super high quality stuff.
Nail -> head. Leave was won by a combination of those who disliked the EU because it was limiting to UK's global outlook, and those who disliked the EU because it was too open and letting immigrants in.
Ironically, Leave could not have won without those conflicting elements, but it also makes decisions now a tad more difficult.