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SystemSystem Posts: 12,258
edited November 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » So far so good. We might just get to the end of the week without a Cabinet exit

PaddyPower

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  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    brave thread for a Thursday.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,720

    FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    Good idea.
  • FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    Given how many Leaver pensioners tell us that they used to work in the fields, the farmers should instead be commandeering a granddad's army.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    edited November 2017

    FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    Wonder if that is where Gordon Brown got the idea? Probably not...
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108
    fpt
    TGOHF said:

    TonyE said:



    Having control over who comes to the UK is not the same as preventing people of other nationalities coming to the UK. Controlling the numbers is nothing to do with Xenophobia and everything to do with Housing, Services and Employment, as well as culture.

    If it gives you some moral comfort to believe that we're all bigots, then by all means believe that - it hurts me none. But you would be misguiding yourself as to the real issues and what has caused them.

    I don't believe that all Leavers are bigots. I do believe that far too many Leavers are far too relaxed about pandering to bigots.

    One of the chief reasons why the rest of the EU is cutting Britain so little slack is because the Leave campaign was won with xenophobic lies that the government has never distanced itself from. Why on earth should they facilitate the success of such a campaign?
    As I understand you - unless we have completely open borders where everyone in Africa and the wider world are allowed to come and be full citizens of the Uk with free healthcare and schooling then we are all horrible goose stepping racists ?

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    What I think happened with the referendum is that this one element of the overall relationship was focused on by people who have never liked immigration and probably never will.

    In years gone by EU immigration has ebbed and flowed and before that there was other kinds of immigration (Huguenots, Jews, Asian, Afro-Caribbean) and my guess is those were not liked either. The difference at the EU Ref was that those people who didn't like immigration could finally do something about it. So they did.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited November 2017
    More problems for Rog's mate....

    The Old Vic theatre said it has received 20 personal testimonies of alleged inappropriate behaviour by Kevin Spacey during his 11-year tenure as artistic director.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    I am pretty interested in politics but it is remarkable how many of that Cabinet have made so little impact. Karen Bradley anyone? Anyone at all? Baroness Evans? Best contribution? David Lidington? I mean, is this the best we can do?

    Add in the qualifier "positive" and the likes of Fox and Grayling also fall out of the reckoning.

    Why is Patrick McLoughin still there? He's only 59 but seems so much older, a party Chairman who doesn't like giving interviews...

    If May has indeed got her mojo back surely its time for some winnowing.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    TGOHF said:

    TonyE said:



    Having control over who comes to the UK is not the same as preventing people of other nationalities coming to the UK. Controlling the numbers is nothing to do with Xenophobia and everything to do with Housing, Services and Employment, as well as culture.

    If it gives you some moral comfort to believe that we're all bigots, then by all means believe that - it hurts me none. But you would be misguiding yourself as to the real issues and what has caused them.

    I don't believe that all Leavers are bigots. I do believe that far too many Leavers are far too relaxed about pandering to bigots.

    One of the chief reasons why the rest of the EU is cutting Britain so little slack is because the Leave campaign was won with xenophobic lies that the government has never distanced itself from. Why on earth should they facilitate the success of such a campaign?
    As I understand you - unless we have completely open borders where everyone in Africa and the wider world are allowed to come and be full citizens of the Uk with free healthcare and schooling then we are all horrible goose stepping racists ?

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.
    The EU as it stands had significant disadvantages, but - on balance - the benefits outweighed the costs.

    The direction of travel and the refusal to institute - for example - structures to protect the interests of the non-Eurozone members meant that the future was not going to worth for us.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108

    More problems for Rog's mate....

    The Old Vic theatre said it has received 20 personal testimonies of alleged inappropriate behaviour by Kevin Spacey during his 11-year tenure as artistic director.

    I think Kevin Spacey is going down. And not in the way he would like.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108
    Charles said:

    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    TGOHF said:

    TonyE said:



    Having control over who comes to the UK is not the same as preventing people of other nationalities coming to the UK. Controlling the numbers is nothing to do with Xenophobia and everything to do with Housing, Services and Employment, as well as culture.

    If it gives you some moral comfort to believe that we're all bigots, then by all means believe that - it hurts me none. But you would be misguiding yourself as to the real issues and what has caused them.

    I don't believe that all Leavers are bigots. I do believe that far too many Leavers are far too relaxed about pandering to bigots.

    One of the chief reasons why the rest of the EU is cutting Britain so little slack is because the Leave campaign was won with xenophobic lies that the government has never distanced itself from. Why on earth should they facilitate the success of such a campaign?
    As I understand you - unless we have completely open borders where everyone in Africa and the wider world are allowed to come and be full citizens of the Uk with free healthcare and schooling then we are all horrible goose stepping racists ?

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.
    The EU as it stands had significant disadvantages, but - on balance - the benefits outweighed the costs.

    The direction of travel and the refusal to institute - for example - structures to protect the interests of the non-Eurozone members meant that the future was not going to worth for us.
    A pre-referendum discussion. IMO Dave's Deal did this but I'm sure we don't want to go through it all again.
  • I fear this thread is tempting fate especially considering

    1) I have a very busy Friday/Saturday and my Sunday threads will either be written well in advance or around 7am Sunday morning

    2) Mike's flying out of the country in a few days time
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,516

    More problems for Rog's mate....

    The Old Vic theatre said it has received 20 personal testimonies of alleged inappropriate behaviour by Kevin Spacey during his 11-year tenure as artistic director.

    Only 20, in 11 years?
  • Luckyguy1983Luckyguy1983 Posts: 29,233

    FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    This Leaver likes it, yes.
  • Sandpit said:

    More problems for Rog's mate....

    The Old Vic theatre said it has received 20 personal testimonies of alleged inappropriate behaviour by Kevin Spacey during his 11-year tenure as artistic director.

    Only 20, in 11 years?
    My thought exactly - once every 6 months is either a very low strike rate or a lot of young men who appreciated his direct style.
  • DavidL said:

    I am pretty interested in politics but it is remarkable how many of that Cabinet have made so little impact. Karen Bradley anyone? Anyone at all? Baroness Evans? Best contribution? David Lidington? I mean, is this the best we can do?

    Add in the qualifier "positive" and the likes of Fox and Grayling also fall out of the reckoning.

    Why is Patrick McLoughin still there? He's only 59 but seems so much older, a party Chairman who doesn't like giving interviews...

    If May has indeed got her mojo back surely its time for some winnowing.

    Karen Bradley is dealing with a huge hot potato which very few have noticed, by that metric she's doing very well
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    DavidL said:

    I am pretty interested in politics but it is remarkable how many of that Cabinet have made so little impact. Karen Bradley anyone? Anyone at all? Baroness Evans? Best contribution? David Lidington? I mean, is this the best we can do?

    Add in the qualifier "positive" and the likes of Fox and Grayling also fall out of the reckoning.

    Why is Patrick McLoughin still there? He's only 59 but seems so much older, a party Chairman who doesn't like giving interviews...

    If May has indeed got her mojo back surely its time for some winnowing.

    I thought Karen Bradley was reasonably impressive when I've seen her on Question Time and the like.

    McLoughlin is 59?!?! He's been in parliament for donkey's years hasn't he. (I think he came in through a by-election in the 1980s?)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617
    DavidL said:


    Why is Patrick McLoughin still there? He's only 59 but seems so much older, a party Chairman who doesn't like giving interviews...

    He goes down well at local association dinners though.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,335
    edited November 2017
    DavidL said:


    FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    Wonder if that is where Gordon Brown got the idea? Probably not...
    Feck that shit, I did not work hard at school or university to do manual work.

    That's the work for plebs.

    Plus there's a reason I didn't become a Doctor, I'm useless with my hands.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    DavidL said:

    I am pretty interested in politics but it is remarkable how many of that Cabinet have made so little impact. Karen Bradley anyone? Anyone at all? Baroness Evans? Best contribution? David Lidington? I mean, is this the best we can do?
    Add in the qualifier "positive" and the likes of Fox and Grayling also fall out of the reckoning.
    Why is Patrick McLoughin still there? He's only 59 but seems so much older, a party Chairman who doesn't like giving interviews...
    If May has indeed got her mojo back surely its time for some winnowing.

    I am sure that the Conservative titans, whom you list, Mr L, would have been seen to be doing something, if the Government had time to think of something for them to do.

    The difficulty is that Mrs May and her leading team are so engrossed with deciding what they ought to be doing about Brexit, and at the same time rigging the political and social landscape so that is satisfies savage hardliners like Dyson, that they do not have to think about real problems that normal people face.
  • Regarding the Strictly comparison,

    1) Like Shirley Ballas, Theresa May is an appalling (head) judge

    2) Who is the cabinet's Aston Merrygold, who was disgracefully kicked out without cause by a rubbish judge.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    Awesome Mash article on housing.
    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/lifestyle/why-is-it-so-hard-to-buy-a-flat-in-a-cool-area-of-this-incredibly-expensive-city-20171115139131

    It’s easy for the Gen Xers and Baby Boomers. To them, with low property prices in areas considered ‘undesirable’ at the time and interest rates between five and 15 per cent, getting a mortgage was easy.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited November 2017

    FPT
    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    "British Pears picked by British Pensioners"

    We can make this work.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Regarding the Strictly comparison,

    1) Like Shirley Ballas, Theresa May is an appalling (head) judge

    2) Who is the cabinet's Aston Merrygold, who was disgracefully kicked out without cause by a rubbish judge.

    Isn't Mrs May closer to Tess "dead behind the eyes" Daly....
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,516

    Sandpit said:

    More problems for Rog's mate....

    The Old Vic theatre said it has received 20 personal testimonies of alleged inappropriate behaviour by Kevin Spacey during his 11-year tenure as artistic director.

    Only 20, in 11 years?
    My thought exactly - once every 6 months is either a very low strike rate or a lot of young men who appreciated his direct style.
    Indeed, the rest of them just weren’t complaining!
  • Actually thinking about it, George Osborne is Aston Merrygold.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    The flaw is: Could modern British boys recognise a vegetable when they saw it?

    Or do the Pizza and burger fields need pickers?
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    DavidL said:


    FPT
    I guess leavers will like this idea;
    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    Wonder if that is where Gordon Brown got the idea? Probably not...
    Feck that shit, I did not work hard at school or university to do manual work.
    That's the work for plebs.
    Plus there's a reason I didn't become a Doctor, I'm useless with my hands.
    But we imported a lot of people from overseas to do precisely that, Mr Eagles. Not to work as lawyers.
  • Danny565 said:

    Regarding the Strictly comparison,

    1) Like Shirley Ballas, Theresa May is an appalling (head) judge

    2) Who is the cabinet's Aston Merrygold, who was disgracefully kicked out without cause by a rubbish judge.

    Isn't Mrs May closer to Tess "dead behind the eyes" Daly....
    God no, I've met Tess Daly a few times, and I should be seeing her this Saturday.

    She's lovely and warm, most unlike Theresa May.
  • Regarding Michael Gove, the Tory party really hates him when he starts plotting, he can't help himself.

    And well if Priti Patel had to be replaced by a Leaver, then by that logic, Phil Hammond should be replaced by a Remainer.
  • FPT: "Given that he normally sits down at around 1:30, I think you’re around three hours out on that prediction."

    :lol:

    I was assuming that Hammond would use a load of technical language and bury the CGT change on page 456 of the Budget Book. It would take a couple of hours for the finance journos to cotton on and then Kaboom!!!!!
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693

    FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    Given how many Leaver pensioners tell us that they used to work in the fields, the farmers should instead be commandeering a granddad's army.
    indeed.
  • AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Vince Cable: I was asked to lead a new pro-Remain party. Here’s why I said no"

    http://leftfootforward.org/2017/11/vince-cable-i-was-asked-to-lead-a-new-pro-remain-party-heres-why-i-said-no/
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,932

    Actually thinking about it, George Osborne is Aston Merrygold.

    Perhaps with slightly less charm.... ?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621

    Danny565 said:

    Regarding the Strictly comparison,

    1) Like Shirley Ballas, Theresa May is an appalling (head) judge

    2) Who is the cabinet's Aston Merrygold, who was disgracefully kicked out without cause by a rubbish judge.

    Isn't Mrs May closer to Tess "dead behind the eyes" Daly....
    God no, I've met Tess Daly a few times, and I should be seeing her this Saturday.

    She's lovely and warm, most unlike Theresa May.
    And very surprisingly 48 years old.

    Well I was bloody surprised, anyway!
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    edited November 2017
    TOPPING said:

    fpt

    TGOHF said:

    TonyE said:



    Having control over who comes to the UK is not the same as preventing people of other nationalities coming to the UK. Controlling the numbers is nothing to do with Xenophobia and everything to do with Housing, Services and Employment, as well as culture.

    If it gives you some moral comfort to believe that we're all bigots, then by all means believe that - it hurts me none. But you would be misguiding yourself as to the real issues and what has caused them.

    I don't believe that all Leavers are bigots. I do believe that far too many Leavers are far too relaxed about pandering to bigots.

    One of the chief reasons why the rest of the EU is cutting Britain so little slack is because the Leave campaign was won with xenophobic lies that the government has never distanced itself from. Why on earth should they facilitate the success of such a campaign?
    As I understand you - unless we have completely open borders where everyone in Africa and the wider world are allowed to come and be full citizens of the Uk with free healthcare and schooling then we are all horrible goose stepping racists ?

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    What I think happened with the referendum is that this one element of the overall relationship was focused on by people who have never liked immigration and probably never will.

    In years gone by EU immigration has ebbed and flowed and before that there was other kinds of immigration (Huguenots, Jews, Asian, Afro-Caribbean) and my guess is those were not liked either. The difference at the EU Ref was that those people who didn't like immigration could finally do something about it. So they did.
    We did have a good workable relationship with the old EU but then came the new countries of Eastern Europe with they poorer economies and people.

    You could blame the new labour types of Blair ,brown and Cameron for remains defeat of the referendum but I also blame out of touch people who lecture from privilege positions.
  • Anorak said:

    Danny565 said:

    Regarding the Strictly comparison,

    1) Like Shirley Ballas, Theresa May is an appalling (head) judge

    2) Who is the cabinet's Aston Merrygold, who was disgracefully kicked out without cause by a rubbish judge.

    Isn't Mrs May closer to Tess "dead behind the eyes" Daly....
    God no, I've met Tess Daly a few times, and I should be seeing her this Saturday.

    She's lovely and warm, most unlike Theresa May.
    And very surprisingly 48 years old.

    Well I was bloody surprised, anyway!
    Vernon Kay is a lucky swine.
  • "Field says that, in almost 40 years as an MP, he does not think he has spoken in a more important debate." Guardian.

    MPs debating UC.

    If the Government don't listen on all this then they are utterly f***ed.
  • Scott_P said:
    or ... you're reading too much into the tea leaves.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    FPT

    I guess leavers will like this idea;

    https://twitter.com/TheCGA/status/931134391295840256

    Given how many Leaver pensioners tell us that they used to work in the fields, the farmers should instead be commandeering a granddad's army.
    When I was a kid I had a job clearing stones from fields...
  • TOPPING said:

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    If the EU was so beneficial to us then why has the UK not performed any better than other comparable English-speaking western capitalist nations that aren't in the EU?
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2017
    Charles said:


    Given how many Leaver pensioners tell us that they used to work in the fields, the farmers should instead be commandeering a granddad's army.

    When I was a kid I had a job clearing stones from fields...
    As an overseer, I presume.
  • AndyJS said:

    "Vince Cable: I was asked to lead a new pro-Remain party. Here’s why I said no"

    http://leftfootforward.org/2017/11/vince-cable-i-was-asked-to-lead-a-new-pro-remain-party-heres-why-i-said-no/

    Very interesting. Thanks.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091
    edited November 2017
    I like Emily Thornberry quite a lot, but I'm still not sold on her being leader. Unfortunately, her manner just lends itself too easily to the 'snooty' and 'judgemental' stereotypes - I don't think she's like that, having seen more detailed interviews with her, but unfortunately Joe Public will be going with their first impressions from the 30-second soundbites on the news, where she does come across like that. I think she'd have a hard time winning the likes of Mansfield and Stoke.

    My first choice for next leader right now would probably be Angela Rayner, but she's still about two years away from being ready I think.
  • AnorakAnorak Posts: 6,621
    edited November 2017

    TOPPING said:

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    If the EU was so beneficial to us then why has the UK not performed any better than other comparable English-speaking western capitalist nations that aren't in the EU?
    Such as? Which would you regard as comparable. One without massive natural resources, and with a high population density, etc.
  • "Field says that, in almost 40 years as an MP, he does not think he has spoken in a more important debate." Guardian.

    MPs debating UC.

    If the Government don't listen on all this then they are utterly f***ed.

    .@OnnMel says lawyers have contacted her to say evicting people ahead of #UniversalCredit rollout is not illegal
  • Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.
  • Danny565 said:

    I like Emily Thornberry quite a lot, but I'm still not sold on her being leader. Unfortunately, her manner just lends itself too easily to the 'snooty' and 'judgemental' stereotypes - I don't think she's like that, having seen more detailed interviews with her, but unfortunately Joe Public will be going with their first impressions from the 30-second soundbites on the news, where she does come across like that. I think she'd have a hard time winning the likes of Mansfield and Stoke.

    My first choice for next leader right now would probably be Angela Rayner, but she's still about two years away from being ready I think.

    Yvette Cooper should be leader of the Labour party. Simples. They would be 10-15 points ahead by now.

    Can't happen now because of Ed M's bonkers £3 a go vote change.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056


    We did have a good workable relationship with the old EU but then came the new countries of Eastern Europe with they poorer economies and people.

    You could blame the new labour types of Blair ,brown and Cameron for remains defeat of the referendum but I also blame out of touch people who lecture from privilege positions.

    Actually, the problem started with 1989 and how we handled or mishandled the dismantling of the Berlin Wall and the Warsaw Pact. For their own reasons, conservatives, socialists and liberals all saw enlargement of the EU as desirable for their own political reasons.

    Had we started the accession process in 2014 with a rigorous assessment of the economic and political state of each aspiring country we might have made different decisions with different impacts but we wanted to shove western influence from the Rhine to the Neisse and beyond and ultimately we needed a new source of cheap labour to fuel the 1990s-2000s boom which itself was predicated on cheap food, cheap fuel, cheap money and rising asset values.

    Even when the financial house of cards collapsed in 2008 Britain and Germany still looked attractive propositions for those from eastern Europe. Thus can be explained the 20% depopulation of Lithuania (116,000 in the UK) and the near 400,000 (allegedly) Romanians and Bulgarians.

    Accommodating tens of thousands more people at a time of fiscal stringency makes or made no sense. In my part of London the public services are buckling under the strain with the tubes full and my local surgery experiencing a 47% rise in patients in just two years. We have also seen the emergence of new slums - overcrowded and squalid housing with the return of slum landlords.

    The Single Market is a pernicious mechanism - it has enriched a few and impoverished many more. It has enriched some already wealthy areas of Europe and impoverished many peripheral regions. I wanted an EU that works for all Europeans and all Europe not one which benefits small numbers in some places.
  • Danny565Danny565 Posts: 8,091

    Danny565 said:

    I like Emily Thornberry quite a lot, but I'm still not sold on her being leader. Unfortunately, her manner just lends itself too easily to the 'snooty' and 'judgemental' stereotypes - I don't think she's like that, having seen more detailed interviews with her, but unfortunately Joe Public will be going with their first impressions from the 30-second soundbites on the news, where she does come across like that. I think she'd have a hard time winning the likes of Mansfield and Stoke.

    My first choice for next leader right now would probably be Angela Rayner, but she's still about two years away from being ready I think.

    Yvette Cooper should be leader of the Labour party. Simples. They would be 10-15 points ahead by now.

    Can't happen now because of Ed M's bonkers £3 a go vote change.
    I can't see why you'd assume that, since she would basically be replicating the Miliband strategy - which, lest we forget, performed poorly against a similarly shambolic government.
  • "Field says that, in almost 40 years as an MP, he does not think he has spoken in a more important debate." Guardian.

    MPs debating UC.

    If the Government don't listen on all this then they are utterly f***ed.

    .@OnnMel says lawyers have contacted her to say evicting people ahead of #UniversalCredit rollout is not illegal
    That's pretty incoherent. Is that for failure to pay or just because? If at the end of a tenancy that's non-renewal not eviction. In any event courts take a dim view of removing tenants regardless of breach.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,108

    TOPPING said:

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    If the EU was so beneficial to us then why has the UK not performed any better than other comparable English-speaking western capitalist nations that aren't in the EU?
    non-sensical question. How do you know we wouldn't have performed worse? I appreciate our economic performance in the days prior to our joining was stellar.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited November 2017
    Anorak said:

    Awesome Mash article on housing.
    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/lifestyle/why-is-it-so-hard-to-buy-a-flat-in-a-cool-area-of-this-incredibly-expensive-city-20171115139131

    It’s easy for the Gen Xers and Baby Boomers. To them, with low property prices in areas considered ‘undesirable’ at the time and interest rates between five and 15 per cent, getting a mortgage was easy.

    As funny as it is it has one big miss. When baby boomers were younger the young had more wealth than the old.

    As the baby boomers aged the relationship reversed and now the old have more wealth than the young.

    People keep talking like OAPs being massively wealthier than 30 year olds is the norm throughout history when infact it has been anything but. The crossover point was the massive property spike in the 90s.
  • Anorak said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    If the EU was so beneficial to us then why has the UK not performed any better than other comparable English-speaking western capitalist nations that aren't in the EU?
    Such as? Which would you regard as comparable. One without massive natural resources, and with a high population density, etc.
    A high population density is a major advantage we have not a disadvantage as it leads to major economies of scale, hence why value added tends to be higher in bigger cities and compact states/provinces rather than remote location and look at nations.

    Not English-speaking but Japan is comparable to us on your definition though its obviously had its own problems for some time now largely due to vast indebtedness which is a path we would have headed down without the limited austerity we have had.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Regarding Michael Gove, the Tory party really hates him when he starts plotting, he can't help himself.

    And well if Priti Patel had to be replaced by a Leaver, then by that logic, Phil Hammond should be replaced by a Remainer.

    Wouldn't mind a remainer if they were competent.

  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    Can his popularity in the Labour party sink any lower ?
  • Alistair said:

    Anorak said:

    Awesome Mash article on housing.
    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/lifestyle/why-is-it-so-hard-to-buy-a-flat-in-a-cool-area-of-this-incredibly-expensive-city-20171115139131

    It’s easy for the Gen Xers and Baby Boomers. To them, with low property prices in areas considered ‘undesirable’ at the time and interest rates between five and 15 per cent, getting a mortgage was easy.

    As funny as it is it has one big miss. When baby boomers were younger the young had more wealth than the old.

    As the baby boomers aged the relationship reversed and now the old have more wealth than the young.

    People keep talking like OAPs being massively wealthier than 30 year olds is the norm throughout history when infact it has been anything but. The crossover point was the massive property spike in the 90s.
    The baby boomers sponged off their parents and now they are sponging off their children and grandchildren. Having done so, they are now setting fire to the nation's wealth by having voted for Brexit.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    If the EU was so beneficial to us then why has the UK not performed any better than other comparable English-speaking western capitalist nations that aren't in the EU?
    non-sensical question. How do you know we wouldn't have performed worse? I appreciate our economic performance in the days prior to our joining was stellar.
    Joining didn't change our economic performance, we had to be bailed out by the IMF after we joined not before. It was the economic reforms that began in the mid to late seventies (demanded by the IMF) followed by the reforms in the eighties that changed our performance.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633

    Danny565 said:

    Regarding the Strictly comparison,

    1) Like Shirley Ballas, Theresa May is an appalling (head) judge

    2) Who is the cabinet's Aston Merrygold, who was disgracefully kicked out without cause by a rubbish judge.

    Isn't Mrs May closer to Tess "dead behind the eyes" Daly....
    God no, I've met Tess Daly a few times, and I should be seeing her this Saturday.

    She's lovely and warm, most unlike Theresa May.
    She is the worst thing about SCD - by a sizable margin. Awful presenter.
  • TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    stodge said:


    We did have a good workable relationship with the old EU but then came the new countries of Eastern Europe with they poorer economies and people.

    You could blame the new labour types of Blair ,brown and Cameron for remains defeat of the referendum but I also blame out of touch people who lecture from privilege positions.

    Actually, the problem started with 1989 and how we handled or mishandled the dismantling of the Berlin Wall and the Warsaw Pact. For their own reasons, conservatives, socialists and liberals all saw enlargement of the EU as desirable for their own political reasons.

    Had we started the accession process in 2014 with a rigorous assessment of the economic and political state of each aspiring country we might have made different decisions with different impacts but we wanted to shove western influence from the Rhine to the Neisse and beyond and ultimately we needed a new source of cheap labour to fuel the 1990s-2000s boom which itself was predicated on cheap food, cheap fuel, cheap money and rising asset values.

    Even when the financial house of cards collapsed in 2008 Britain and Germany still looked attractive propositions for those from eastern Europe. Thus can be explained the 20% depopulation of Lithuania (116,000 in the UK) and the near 400,000 (allegedly) Romanians and Bulgarians.

    Accommodating tens of thousands more people at a time of fiscal stringency makes or made no sense. In my part of London the public services are buckling under the strain with the tubes full and my local surgery experiencing a 47% rise in patients in just two years. We have also seen the emergence of new slums - overcrowded and squalid housing with the return of slum landlords.

    The Single Market is a pernicious mechanism - it has enriched a few and impoverished many more. It has enriched some already wealthy areas of Europe and impoverished many peripheral regions. I wanted an EU that works for all Europeans and all Europe not one which benefits small numbers in some places.
    I would agree with most of that but Blair could have had a transitional period for the new Eastern European countries on immigration .

    We were told that around 13 thousand would be coming.

    Lol
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    Anorak said:

    Awesome Mash article on housing.
    http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/news/lifestyle/why-is-it-so-hard-to-buy-a-flat-in-a-cool-area-of-this-incredibly-expensive-city-20171115139131

    It’s easy for the Gen Xers and Baby Boomers. To them, with low property prices in areas considered ‘undesirable’ at the time and interest rates between five and 15 per cent, getting a mortgage was easy.

    As funny as it is it has one big miss. When baby boomers were younger the young had more wealth than the old.

    As the baby boomers aged the relationship reversed and now the old have more wealth than the young.

    People keep talking like OAPs being massively wealthier than 30 year olds is the norm throughout history when infact it has been anything but. The crossover point was the massive property spike in the 90s.
    The baby boomers sponged off their parents and now they are sponging off their children and grandchildren. Having done so, they are now setting fire to the nation's wealth by having voted for Brexit.
    The thing that galls me the most is after having spectacularly failed to save sufficiently for their retirement - rolling as they were in perpetual government largesse their whole lives, it is their children who are being punished rather than they.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,820
    stodge said:

    Even when the financial house of cards collapsed in 2008 Britain and Germany still looked attractive propositions for those from eastern Europe. Thus can be explained the 20% depopulation of Lithuania (116,000 in the UK) and the near 400,000 (allegedly) Romanians and Bulgarians.

    The inflection point in the Baltic states' population figures was the collapse of the USSR, not EU membership.

    image
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,516
    edited November 2017

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
  • TGOHF said:

    Danny565 said:

    Regarding the Strictly comparison,

    1) Like Shirley Ballas, Theresa May is an appalling (head) judge

    2) Who is the cabinet's Aston Merrygold, who was disgracefully kicked out without cause by a rubbish judge.

    Isn't Mrs May closer to Tess "dead behind the eyes" Daly....
    God no, I've met Tess Daly a few times, and I should be seeing her this Saturday.

    She's lovely and warm, most unlike Theresa May.
    She is the worst thing about SCD - by a sizable margin. Awful presenter.
    I've always wanted Gethin Jones to present Strictly.

    Last night's It Takes Two just reaffirmed that.
  • TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    I think the point was that we had a workable relationship with our neighbour and largest trading partner and as a part of that relationship there was freedom of movement. This was part of a broader set of agreements which proved to be mutually beneficial. Over the years both parties have benefited.

    If the EU was so beneficial to us then why has the UK not performed any better than other comparable English-speaking western capitalist nations that aren't in the EU?
    non-sensical question. How do you know we wouldn't have performed worse? I appreciate our economic performance in the days prior to our joining was stellar.
    Joining didn't change our economic performance, we had to be bailed out by the IMF after we joined not before. It was the economic reforms that began in the mid to late seventies (demanded by the IMF) followed by the reforms in the eighties that changed our performance.
    Didn't we start borrowing from the IMF in the 1950s?
  • Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Yep. IDS and Frank Field were looking for a system that would be better for both the country and the individual recipients. Scumbag Osborne was just looking for a way to cut the welfare bill and didn't give a toss whether anyone got hurt or the system got wrecked in the process.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    PClipp said:

    DavidL said:

    I am pretty interested in politics but it is remarkable how many of that Cabinet have made so little impact. Karen Bradley anyone? Anyone at all? Baroness Evans? Best contribution? David Lidington? I mean, is this the best we can do?
    Add in the qualifier "positive" and the likes of Fox and Grayling also fall out of the reckoning.
    Why is Patrick McLoughin still there? He's only 59 but seems so much older, a party Chairman who doesn't like giving interviews...
    If May has indeed got her mojo back surely its time for some winnowing.

    I am sure that the Conservative titans, whom you list, Mr L, would have been seen to be doing something, if the Government had time to think of something for them to do.

    The difficulty is that Mrs May and her leading team are so engrossed with deciding what they ought to be doing about Brexit, and at the same time rigging the political and social landscape so that is satisfies savage hardliners like Dyson, that they do not have to think about real problems that normal people face.
    This is sadly true. And I suppose thinking for themselves is too much to ask.
  • Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Nope, the biggest problem is a single recipient for all benefits, and stopping paying housing benefit direct to the landlord.

    IDS, like Theresa May, is the faecal Midas.
  • Danny565 said:

    Danny565 said:

    I like Emily Thornberry quite a lot, but I'm still not sold on her being leader. Unfortunately, her manner just lends itself too easily to the 'snooty' and 'judgemental' stereotypes - I don't think she's like that, having seen more detailed interviews with her, but unfortunately Joe Public will be going with their first impressions from the 30-second soundbites on the news, where she does come across like that. I think she'd have a hard time winning the likes of Mansfield and Stoke.

    My first choice for next leader right now would probably be Angela Rayner, but she's still about two years away from being ready I think.

    Yvette Cooper should be leader of the Labour party. Simples. They would be 10-15 points ahead by now.

    Can't happen now because of Ed M's bonkers £3 a go vote change.
    I can't see why you'd assume that, since she would basically be replicating the Miliband strategy - which, lest we forget, performed poorly against a similarly shambolic government.
    Not sure about the similarly shambolic bit - this lot are off the scale.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited November 2017
    Khan - Uber London licence appeal 'could take years'

    Does this mean Uber will continue to operate throughout this appeals procwas? By which point Uber might not need human drivers anymore.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617

    Khan - Uber London licence appeal 'could take years'

    Does this mean Uber will continue to operate throughout this appeals process?

    Do they have better lawyers than Zeke Elliot ;D ?
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,617

    Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Nope, the biggest problem is a single recipient for all benefits, and stopping paying housing benefit direct to the landlord.

    IDS, like Theresa May, is the faecal Midas.
    Is George Osborne ever to blame in your universe :o ?
  • Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Nope, the biggest problem is a single recipient for all benefits, and stopping paying housing benefit direct to the landlord.

    IDS, like Theresa May, is the faecal Midas.
    Politically the biggest problem is the ten of thousands (maybe more?) who will see a cut when the UC rolls into working and child tax credit.

    So the working poor, who are "striving" will be hammered.

    Bonkers. Insane. Vote losing madness.
  • Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Nope, the biggest problem is a single recipient for all benefits, and stopping paying housing benefit direct to the landlord.

    IDS, like Theresa May, is the faecal Midas.
    Is George Osborne ever to blame in your universe :o ?
    Yup, he's made a few mistakes here and there, top of the list standing down as an MP.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    AndyJS said:

    "Vince Cable: I was asked to lead a new pro-Remain party. Here’s why I said no"

    http://leftfootforward.org/2017/11/vince-cable-i-was-asked-to-lead-a-new-pro-remain-party-heres-why-i-said-no/

    Without reading that I am going to assume that the answer is not that he was making such a poor job of leading his current party that even he did not think it appropriate.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Anorak said:

    Charles said:


    Given how many Leaver pensioners tell us that they used to work in the fields, the farmers should instead be commandeering a granddad's army.

    When I was a kid I had a job clearing stones from fields...
    As an overseer, I presume.
    Unpaid labourer
  • Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Nope, the biggest problem is a single recipient for all benefits, and stopping paying housing benefit direct to the landlord.

    IDS, like Theresa May, is the faecal Midas.
    Politically the biggest problem is the ten of thousands (maybe more?) who will see a cut when the UC rolls into working and child tax credit.

    So the working poor, who are "striving" will be hammered.

    Bonkers. Insane. Vote losing madness.
    The rollout is designed to cause maximum damage to the Tories.

    They are rolling it out in stages between now and the next election, it will constantly be in the news.
  • Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Nope, the biggest problem is a single recipient for all benefits, and stopping paying housing benefit direct to the landlord.

    IDS, like Theresa May, is the faecal Midas.
    Politically the biggest problem is the ten of thousands (maybe more?) who will see a cut when the UC rolls into working and child tax credit.

    So the working poor, who are "striving" will be hammered.

    Bonkers. Insane. Vote losing madness.
    The rollout is designed to cause maximum damage to the Tories.

    They are rolling it out in stages between now and the next election, it will constantly be in the news.
    Yeh, you would think that Osborne had deliberately designed this so that it would screw May up...
  • Here's an example of the chaos theory in action.

    Stephen Crabb's dick pics and general inability to keep the snake inside the pet store is behind the Universal Credit disaster and damage for the Tories.

    Because of his background, being raised by a working single mother who relied on benefits, he knew what universal credit recipients would be going through, so he was ironing out the kinks in universal credit that were bequeathed to him by IDS and Osborne.

    Then well his sexting stuff came out and he had to leave the cabinet.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,516
    edited November 2017

    Pulpstar said:

    Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Nope, the biggest problem is a single recipient for all benefits, and stopping paying housing benefit direct to the landlord.

    IDS, like Theresa May, is the faecal Midas.
    Is George Osborne ever to blame in your universe :o ?
    Yup, he's made a few mistakes here and there, top of the list standing down as an MP.
    Top of the list putting politics above economics.

    He had a bloody good record as Chancellor, but completely blew his reputation by fighting with IDS and the hyperbolic Remain campaign.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    Here's an example of the chaos theory in action.

    Stephen Crabb's dick pics and general inability to keep the snake inside the pet store is behind the Universal Credit disaster and damage for the Tories.

    Because of his background, being raised by a working single mother who relied on benefits, he knew what universal credit recipients would be going through, so he was ironing out the kinks in universal credit that were bequeathed to him by IDS and Osborne.

    Then well his sexting stuff came out and he had to leave the cabinet.

    Indeed. If anyone ought to be able to spot a kink it would be Crabb.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,335
    edited November 2017
    FPT:
    kyf_100 said:



    No, they won't sell, because they would be hit by CGT tax when they downsize and then hit again by IHT potentially.

    Why would anyone sell under those circumstances?

    I'm in my mid-thirties and, having bought four and bit years ago, am looking to move on soon. In those years I've saved money intended to put towards my next place.

    However if there was CGT on my main residence, I would be enormously incentivised instead to use that money saved as a deposit on a second place instead, renting out my first one, becoming a hated BTL landlord instead of freeing up a much needed starter home.
    I'm not really convinced by that. The numbers are relatively small. It depends where your starter house is and the size your capital gain.

    Picking one out of the air, on a modern 3 bed semi in Milton Keynes at 275k now (5 year price rise = 25%), you would pay perhaps 8.5k in CGT on a price increase of under 50k. Just your extra 3% Stamp Duty alone to turn it into a BTL would be as much.

    And that is without all the other associated costs, and that the financial and regulatory environment is tilted against single-property landlords compared to 5 years ago.

    And if there has been a similar change in house prices at the other end, then then there may not be that much difference.

    The people who would be hit the hardest are young families who need to trade up due to increasing family size, or divorcing couples who have no choice. The only choice would be to defer having a family (is this Tory policy now?) or remain in a loveless marriage (possibly Tory policy). Everyone else would cling on to their existing properties until you took them from their cold, dead hands.

    I think that over-dramatises the impact a little! A smallish tax on a large gain is not really going to make that much difference. And if there is no gain, there is no tax.

    With CGT on property at 28% and no exemption for main residence you are effectively incentivising people of all ages and all walks of life who are lucky enough to own property to never sell their homes.

    I think that there may be short term turbulence, but it would find a new norm - with a less distorted market.

    However, as Sean Fear said, the politics would be interesting. Richer people do not like losing their lollipops.
  • Sandpit said:

    Most of Frank Field's proposals on improving Universal Credit look very sensible, and wouldn't undermine the rationale for introducing it.

    AIUI Frank Field and IDS worked together on the UC concept several years ago. They both have huge experience in this area and should be listened to by the government.

    Most of the problems seem to stem from Osborne’s interventions like the six week wait.
    Nope, the biggest problem is a single recipient for all benefits, and stopping paying housing benefit direct to the landlord.

    IDS, like Theresa May, is the faecal Midas.
    Politically the biggest problem is the ten of thousands (maybe more?) who will see a cut when the UC rolls into working and child tax credit.

    So the working poor, who are "striving" will be hammered.

    Bonkers. Insane. Vote losing madness.
    The rollout is designed to cause maximum damage to the Tories.

    They are rolling it out in stages between now and the next election, it will constantly be in the news.
    Yeh, you would think that Osborne had deliberately designed this so that it would screw May up...
    This was the brain child of IDS.

    I'm hopeful David Gauke can fix this, he's very good.
  • Good afternoon, everyone.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,214
    The 6 week wait is appalling and needs to go but even 4 weeks is going to be seriously harsh for people who will end up either living on charity or stealing to eat because of the government's incompetence and inability to process things within an acceptable period of time. How long does an insurance company take to sell car insurance or a bank to rip you off with a dodgy mortgage with an interesting insurance product on the side?

    Some money to take the rough edges on this is going to need to be found in the budget.
  • MattWMattW Posts: 24,335
    Sorry - something went wrong with my quotes.

    I think it is fairly clear, however.
  • Alex Salmond has defended his new show on Russia Today by noting that Jeremy Corbyn, John McDonnell and Diane Abbott have all appeared on and supported the Putin propaganda channel. Remember when Jezza told his followers to “try Russia Today”…

    https://order-order.com/2017/11/16/salmond-russia-today-good-enough-corbyn-good-enough/
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    DavidL said:

    The 6 week wait is appalling and needs to go but even 4 weeks is going to be seriously harsh for people who will end up either living on charity or stealing to eat because of the government's incompetence and inability to process things within an acceptable period of time. How long does an insurance company take to sell car insurance or a bank to rip you off with a dodgy mortgage with an interesting insurance product on the side?

    Some money to take the rough edges on this is going to need to be found in the budget.

    I went with a friend to a Job Centre today and there were leaflets about UC - it said if you cannot wait you can have an advanced payment which is half of the UC they will get repayable over 6 months for new claimants and 12 months for ths moving from another benefit. That advanced payment can be paid out same day
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    "Roads are made, streets are made, services are improved, electric light turns night into day, water is brought from reservoirs a hundred miles off in the mountains – and all the while the landlord sits still.

    Every one of those improvements is effected by the labour and cost of other people and the taxpayers. To not one of those improvements does the land monopolist, as a land monopolist, contribute, and yet by every one of them the value of his land is enhanced."

    Winston Churchill - 1909.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,135

    stodge said:

    Even when the financial house of cards collapsed in 2008 Britain and Germany still looked attractive propositions for those from eastern Europe. Thus can be explained the 20% depopulation of Lithuania (116,000 in the UK) and the near 400,000 (allegedly) Romanians and Bulgarians.

    The inflection point in the Baltic states' population figures was the collapse of the USSR, not EU membership.

    image
    Russia's has started to rise again though.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    RobD said:

    cut off mid sentence?

    @bbclaurak: Rumours doing the rounds that govt looking for a way of ditching the date amendment that well, doesn’t look like they are ditching the date amendment - nothing firm yet
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,516
    To anyone complaining about sexual harrasment protocols in Parliament, look what the US Congress does to anyone wanting to make a complaint...
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MSkwNs_s6TA
  • Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    cut off mid sentence?

    @bbclaurak: Rumours doing the rounds that govt looking for a way of ditching the date amendment that well, doesn’t look like they are ditching the date amendment - nothing firm yet
    Hurrah for the mutineers.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,135
    edited November 2017

    Scott_P said:

    RobD said:

    cut off mid sentence?

    @bbclaurak: Rumours doing the rounds that govt looking for a way of ditching the date amendment that well, doesn’t look like they are ditching the date amendment - nothing firm yet
    Hurrah for the mutineers.
    An easy concession ;)
This discussion has been closed.