Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

Options

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Brexit Bill goes into the committee stage punters remai

SystemSystem Posts: 11,688
edited November 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » As the Brexit Bill goes into the committee stage punters remain unconvinced that UK will leave on March 29 2019

Follow @MSmithsonPB // < ![CDATA[ // < ![CDATA[ xfunction(d,s,id){var js,fjs=d.getElementsByTagName(s)[0];if(!d.getElementById(id)){js=d.createElement(s);js.id=id;js.src="//platform.twitter.com/widgets.js";fjs.parentNode.insertBefore(js,fjs);}}(document,"script","twitter-wjs"); // ]]>

Read the full story here


«13

Comments

  • Options
    First
  • Options
    And to think it wasn't that long ago old Julian was a guardianista fav.
  • Options
    Do I dare turn on cnn?
  • Options
    On topic, today was the beginning of Remain's 'Operation Dynamo'
  • Options

    On topic, today was the beginning of Remain's 'Operation Dynamo'

    "You never go full Remoaner!"
  • Options
    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/930199927694725120
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    Nick Timothy got sacked, and Hammond didn't
  • Options
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    Nick Timothy got sacked, and Hammond didn't
    I'd rather see TPD Mark Reckless advising a Tory PM than Nick Timothy.
  • Options
    Nick Timothy is a walking colostomy bag.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    edited November 2017
    FPT for Cyclefree
    I'm a bit doubtful about the family's motivations here. Sure, he's behaving unusually and it doesn't seem very wise, but why are they so desperate about it to the point of considering making their child homeless? Is he an unpleasant resident? Does their affection for him depend on his career path? Are they very short of money and need him to start earning to avoid a crisis?

    I think they should continue to house him, offer a hand now and then as they've been doing, and expect that in due course he'll want to do something more. I don't get why they're hassling him.

    I have a relative who the family has been supporting for decades, incidentally. We could afford it, he had modest needs, we thought it strange that he didn't want to work, but he seems happy and we could afford it, so OK.
  • Options
    As Emperor Kahless said, destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a war to save an Empire is no defeat.

    https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/930200749816107009
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,488
    edited November 2017
    Here we go, David Davis not happy at the gruesome twosome.

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/930197087526051840
  • Options
    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    Some don't like the messenger, but Timothy's criticisms of Hammond and the last decade of fiscal policy have some merit.
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2017
    On topic: Those odds are raving bonkers.

    I do love wishful thinking in political betting markets. Wise heads will look not at what they want to happen, but what is likely to happen. That means understanding the mechanism of any purported change of direction. In this case, there isn't one that doesn't involve heroic political and (more importantly) legal somersaults.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    As Emperor Kahless said, destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a war to save an Empire is no defeat.

    twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/930200749816107009

    Who's the changeling again? :D
  • Options
    RobD said:

    As Emperor Kahless said, destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a war to save an Empire is no defeat.

    twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/930200749816107009

    Who's the changeling again? :D
    Martok.
  • Options

    On topic: Those odds are raving bonkers.

    I do love wishful thinking in political betting markets. Wise heads will look not at what they want to happen, but what is likely to happen. That means understanding the mechanism of any purported change of direction. In this case, there isn't one that doesn't involve heroic political and (more importantly) legal somersaults.

    Perhaps William Glenn is trading out his bet with SeanT?
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,215

    FPT for Cyclefree
    I'm a bit doubtful about the family's motivations here. Sure, he's behaving unusually and it doesn't seem very wise, but why are they so desperate about it to the point of considering making their child homeless? Is he an unpleasant resident? Does their affection for him depend on his career path? Are they very short of money and need him to start earning to avoid a crisis?

    I think they should continue to house him, offer a hand now and then as they've been doing, and expect that in due course he'll want to do something more. I don't get why they're hassling him.

    I have a relative who the family has been supporting for decades, incidentally. We could afford it, he had modest needs, we thought it strange that he didn't want to work, but he seems happy and we could afford it, so OK.

    Thank you Nick.

    The reason they are desperate is because it has been going on a long time. They worry that (a) it’s a sign of unhappiness which needs addressing; (b) it may trigger a further bout of mental illness and the last one involved self harm and violence to others; (c) the child can be very unpleasant and vile, which is not nice, to put it mildly, and this has led to serious difficulties in relations with siblings. The child can also be very charming and funny and has talent and intelligence. And they think that it is no good for anyone to do nothing with their life - whether paid or voluntary work or some other purpose.

    The parents are on the cusp of retirement and one has a chronic illness which does not help. The career path does not matter. But a life without work or a purpose is no good for anyone.

    I have already suggested sending him to someone else in the family but it is hard to impose someone with mental health issues on others. It is not easy to understand how hard it is living with someone who can, on a hair’s trigger, turn violent.

    Perhaps one shouldn’t say this to PB’ers but life is not lived in your room........
  • Options
    swing_voterswing_voter Posts: 1,435
    I know this sounds silly but what does leaving the EU actually mean in betting terms? I am struggling to envisage at what point we are physically out. I believe in march 2019 we will still be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, will be paying in to the EU, our farmers will be in receipt of CAP money, certain regional funds will still be coming in and we will still be trading within the SEM - yet in betting terms is that in or out just because the Govt says we are?
  • Options
    Who was that bellend who tipped Roy Moore at 4/7?

    https://twitter.com/jamiedupree/status/930204183126560769
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2017

    I know this sounds silly but what does leaving the EU actually mean in betting terms? I am struggling to envisage at what point we are physically out. I believe in march 2019 we will still be under the jurisdiction of the ECJ, will be paying in to the EU, our farmers will be in receipt of CAP money, certain regional funds will still be coming in and we will still be trading within the SEM - yet in betting terms is that in or out just because the Govt says we are?

    The treaties will no longer apply to us (directly) at 11pm UK time on 29th March 2019. The UK will be expunged from the EU website lists of members. We won't be a member state of the EU.

    It really is as simple as that. Sure, we might in practice still be paying vast sums, be subject to EU rules and ECJ jurisdiction for a transitional period (or maybe even longer), but we won't be an EU member state. We won't have a place in the Council of Ministers and we won't have MEPs in the EU parliament. What's more, despite what Lord Kerr thinks (he claims to have written Article 50, but doesn't seem to have read it), there's no way of this being averted except with the unanimous consent of the EU27 plus the UK, and there's no realistic chance of getting that consent in the incredibly tight timescale available.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    Cyclefree said:



    Thank you Nick.

    The reason they are desperate is because it has been going on a long time. They worry that (a) it’s a sign of unhappiness which needs addressing; (b) it may trigger a further bout of mental illness and the last one involved self harm and violence to others; (c) the child can be very unpleasant and vile, which is not nice, to put it mildly, and this has led to serious difficulties in relations with siblings. The child can also be very charming and funny and has talent and intelligence. And they think that it is no good for anyone to do nothing with their life - whether paid or voluntary work or some other purpose.

    The parents are on the cusp of retirement and one has a chronic illness which does not help. The career path does not matter. But a life without work or a purpose is no good for anyone.

    I have already suggested sending him to someone else in the family but it is hard to impose someone with mental health issues on others. It is not easy to understand how hard it is living with someone who can, on a hair’s trigger, turn violent.

    Perhaps one shouldn’t say this to PB’ers but life is not lived in your room........

    Yes, I can see that's different from the case in my family (a shy, inoffensive chap who decided life was about contemplation).

    On (a) I think that forcing him out would probably make it worse - it might help, but it's too much of a gamble. (b) and (c) are serious and perhaps having him omitted for therapy might be an option if he has another violent bout. But of course it's hard to recommnd without knowing them all personally (and even then, I'm sure).
  • Options

    Who was that bellend who tipped Roy Moore at 4/7?

    https://twitter.com/jamiedupree/status/930204183126560769

    he's not budged much from that on betfair
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,344
    Scott_P said:
    Senior EU figures have said several times that they'd suspend A50 in a heartbeat if we asked them to. Even if the Government doesn't concede the amendment, I don't see that they can really resist if a Parliamentary majority wants it - if necessary, the Government could be voted out and replaced by a "stop Brexit" emergency coalition. I don't think it's especially likely, but if a consensus arises that it's going pear-shaped, it's possible.
  • Options
    franklynfranklyn Posts: 297
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT for Cyclefree
    I'm a bit doubtful about the family's motivations here. Sure, he's behaving unusually and it doesn't seem very wise, but why are they so desperate about it to the point of considering making their child homeless? Is he an unpleasant resident? Does their affection for him depend on his career path? Are they very short of money and need him to start earning to avoid a crisis?

    I think they should continue to house him, offer a hand now and then as they've been doing, and expect that in due course he'll want to do something more. I don't get why they're hassling him.

    I have a relative who the family has been supporting for decades, incidentally. We could afford it, he had modest needs, we thought it strange that he didn't want to work, but he seems happy and we could afford it, so OK.

    Thank you Nick.

    The reason they are desperate is because it has been going on a long time. They worry that (a) it’s a sign of unhappiness which needs addressing; (b) it may trigger a further bout of mental illness and the last one involved self harm and violence to others; (c) the child can be very unpleasant and vile, which is not nice, to put it mildly, and this has led to serious difficulties in relations with siblings. The child can also be very charming and funny and has talent and intelligence. And they think that it is no good for anyone to do nothing with their life - whether paid or voluntary work or some other purpose.

    The parents are on the cusp of retirement and one has a chronic illness which does not help. The career path does not matter. But a life without work or a purpose is no good for anyone.

    I have already suggested sending him to someone else in the family but it is hard to impose someone with mental health issues on others. It is not easy to understand how hard it is living with someone who can, on a hair’s trigger, turn violent.

    Perhaps one shouldn’t say this to PB’ers but life is not lived in your room........
    Dear Cyclefree, this must be very hard for your relatives and for you, and makes the petty political things that we quibble about on this site seem totally trivial in comparison with real life problems that families encounter,

    I am medical, and I have seen this mental scenario with chronic cannabis use (the sort of people who smoke several joints a day); I mention that not in any judgemental way (I would decriminalize drugs if it was up to me) and it may not be relevant here, but it is an observation that I have made far too many times over the years, and not just in the young; I have seen plenty of habitual users in their fifties and sixties, many of whom have wasted their lives.

    I hope you find a way forward with your relative. It's brave of you to talk about such things.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,648
    Underwhelming, in terms of the various Trump investigations.

    Endearingly batshit in places, though - ambassador to Australia ???

  • Options
    BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 7,995
    edited November 2017
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT for Cyclefree
    I'm a bit doubtful about the family's motivations here. Sure, he's behaving unusually and it doesn't seem very wise, but why are they so desperate about it to the point of considering making their child homeless? Is he an unpleasant resident? Does their affection for him depend on his career path? Are they very short of money and need him to start earning to avoid a crisis?

    I think they should continue to house him, offer a hand now and then as they've been doing, and expect that in due course he'll want to do something more. I don't get why they're hassling him.

    I have a relative who the family has been supporting for decades, incidentally. We could afford it, he had modest needs, we thought it strange that he didn't want to work, but he seems happy and we could afford it, so OK.

    Thank you Nick.

    The reason they are desperate is because it has been going on a long time. They worry that (a) it’s a sign of unhappiness which needs addressing; (b) it may trigger a further bout of mental illness and the last one involved self harm and violence to others; (c) the child can be very unpleasant and vile, which is not nice, to put it mildly, and this has led to serious difficulties in relations with siblings. The child can also be very charming and funny and has talent and intelligence. And they think that it is no good for anyone to do nothing with their life - whether paid or voluntary work or some other purpose.

    The parents are on the cusp of retirement and one has a chronic illness which does not help. The career path does not matter. But a life without work or a purpose is no good for anyone.

    I have already suggested sending him to someone else in the family but it is hard to impose someone with mental health issues on others. It is not easy to understand how hard it is living with someone who can, on a hair’s trigger, turn violent.

    Perhaps one shouldn’t say this to PB’ers but life is not lived in your room........
    It might be useful for the parents to seek counselling or therapy for themselves on how to cope. It sounds as if they need outside professional help.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,857
    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?
  • Options
    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    edited November 2017

    Senior EU figures have said several times that they'd suspend A50 in a heartbeat if we asked them to. .

    That's not enough, though. They may well say that - but how on earth can they be sure that some minor (or indeed major) EU country won't block it? What's more, the UK couldn't know in advance: there's no mechanism for getting a binding commitment, and, failing such a commitment, we could find ourselves crashing out under Article 50(3) despite say, 26 out of 27 countries wanting us to stay in.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    So now people are getting this whole Russian threat thing. The Trump thing, the Wikileaks thing, the absolutely dodge video of Trump doing things that would win Roy Moore's support and so on.

    And there was one time someone concluded on this site I should be a Minister of War because of my hostility towards the current Russian government.

    May's speech is politically convenient, it isn't just a PM taking care of UK security business. She did, however, omit one of our biggest problems in protecting Western liberal democracy and that is the political elites, the so called liberal progressives in particular who seem to forget that the fundamental is a free democracy and it has to be defended and fought for, not their particular hobby horses. Once Trump got elected, people soon started changing their tune.

    Putin is a schemer and no more. Any disruptive forces to western liberal democracy are courted as well as individuals within political parties who can influence pro-Russian policy.

    His regime has gone into murder, including overseas, on a noted scale and repression whilst spreading disruption anywhere it can, but for years we danced around it. the Russian government, however, able to get away with it because we pretended not to notice rather than confronting it.

    Putin despises the soft West and its leaders, the Obamas, the Merkels. Such people that seem to gather a tremendous amount of reverence in many circles in the West but for Putin he correctly puts them down as not having the nuts to take him on. He does, however respect strength and he is afraid of it. The collective West can put his regime back in its box, if it is willing to cut the crap and stand up.

    Here is a hint, when the Nordic security services, the Swedes, the Finns, the Norwegians, none of them known for hysterics, start flagging Russia as a serious problem, you listen. They have been flagging it up for years now.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986
    Cyclefree said:

    FPT for Cyclefree
    I'm a bit doubtful about the family's motivations here. Sure, he's behaving unusually and it doesn't seem very wise, but why are they so desperate about it to the point of considering making their child homeless? Is he an unpleasant resident? Does their affection for him depend on his career path? Are they very short of money and need him to start earning to avoid a crisis?

    I think they should continue to house him, offer a hand now and then as they've been doing, and expect that in due course he'll want to do something more. I don't get why they're hassling him.

    I have a relative who the family has been supporting for decades, incidentally. We could afford it, he had modest needs, we thought it strange that he didn't want to work, but he seems happy and we could afford it, so OK.

    Thank you Nick.

    The reason they are desperate is because it has been going on a long time. They worry that (a) it’s a sign of unhappiness which needs addressing; (b) it may trigger a further bout of mental illness and the last one involved self harm and violence to others; (c) the child can be very unpleasant and vile, which is not nice, to put it mildly, and this has led to serious difficulties in relations with siblings. The child can also be very charming and funny and has talent and intelligence. And they think that it is no good for anyone to do nothing with their life - whether paid or voluntary work or some other purpose.

    The parents are on the cusp of retirement and one has a chronic illness which does not help. The career path does not matter. But a life without work or a purpose is no good for anyone.

    I have already suggested sending him to someone else in the family but it is hard to impose someone with mental health issues on others. It is not easy to understand how hard it is living with someone who can, on a hair’s trigger, turn violent.

    Perhaps one shouldn’t say this to PB’ers but life is not lived in your room........
    Advice from my spouse who is a psychotherapist.
    Sounds bad. Mental health issues are terribly provided for.
    Needs professional help. Ideally drugs to stabilise, then therapy. (Consult a professional. From a reputable list). Quacks abound. It is an unregulated profession, ie, you or I could set up,claiming to be a "therapist", BACP is good.
    https://www.bacp.co.uk/
    But in the end, someone has to WANT to get well. No treatment short of sectioning works without consent, Sectioning only works by stopping any deadly intent while in crisis. And thus gives enforced drugs to allow stability.
    But. Needs to be viewed as an illness. You wouldn't turn a cancer sufferer out on the streets...
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,857

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
    Not necessarily.

    As discussed above, it's likely the EU27 would agree to cancel A50 should we wish to communicate it.

    I don't think think it's likely.

    But it's now possible.

    The odds are slight, but improving.
  • Options
    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 27,986
    Barnesian said:

    Cyclefree said:

    FPT for Cyclefree
    I'm a bit doubtful about the family's motivations here. Sure, he's behaving unusually and it doesn't seem very wise, but why are they so desperate about it to the point of considering making their child homeless? Is he an unpleasant resident? Does their affection for him depend on his career path? Are they very short of money and need him to start earning to avoid a crisis?

    I think they should continue to house him, offer a hand now and then as they've been doing, and expect that in due course he'll want to do something more. I don't get why they're hassling him.

    I have a relative who the family has been supporting for decades, incidentally. We could afford it, he had modest needs, we thought it strange that he didn't want to work, but he seems happy and we could afford it, so OK.

    Thank you Nick.

    The reason they are desperate is because it has been going on a long time. They worry that (a) it’s a sign of unhappiness which needs addressing; (b) it may trigger a further bout of mental illness and the last one involved self harm and violence to others; (c) the child can be very unpleasant and vile, which is not nice, to put it mildly, and this has led to serious difficulties in relations with siblings. The child can also be very charming and funny and has talent and intelligence. And they think that it is no good for anyone to do nothing with their life - whether paid or voluntary work or some other purpose.

    The parents are on the cusp of retirement and one has a chronic illness which does not help. The career path does not matter. But a life without work or a purpose is no good for anyone.

    I have already suggested sending him to someone else in the family but it is hard to impose someone with mental health issues on others. It is not easy to understand how hard it is living with someone who can, on a hair’s trigger, turn violent.

    Perhaps one shouldn’t say this to PB’ers but life is not lived in your room........
    It might be useful for the parents to seek counselling or therapy for themselves on how to cope. It sounds as if they need outside professional help.
    +1. Good advice. Maybe the siblings also, so a "United Front" strategy can be worked out. These things are not easy.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
    Not necessarily.

    As discussed above, it's likely the EU27 would agree to cancel A50 should we wish to communicate it.

    I don't think think it's likely.

    But it's now possible.

    The odds are slight, but improving.
    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.
  • Options
    GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 20,857

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
    Not necessarily.

    As discussed above, it's likely the EU27 would agree to cancel A50 should we wish to communicate it.

    I don't think think it's likely.

    But it's now possible.

    The odds are slight, but improving.
    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.
    The key determinant is public opinion.

    The MPs will largely (not completely) follow the voters on this.

    And I suspect, so would the EU.

    If the EU were smart (about us staying) they would be throwing a bone on FOM after Christmas.
  • Options
    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    Y0kel said:

    So now people are getting this whole Russian threat thing. The Trump thing, the Wikileaks thing, the absolutely dodge video of Trump doing things that would win Roy Moore's support and so on.

    And there was one time someone concluded on this site I should be a Minister of War because of my hostility towards the current Russian government.

    May's speech is politically convenient, it isn't just a PM taking care of UK security business. She did, however, omit one of our biggest problems in protecting Western liberal democracy and that is the political elites, the so called liberal progressives in particular who seem to forget that the fundamental is a free democracy and it has to be defended and fought for, not their particular hobby horses. Once Trump got elected, people soon started changing their tune.

    Putin is a schemer and no more. Any disruptive forces to western liberal democracy are courted as well as individuals within political parties who can influence pro-Russian policy.

    His regime has gone into murder, including overseas, on a noted scale and repression whilst spreading disruption anywhere it can, but for years we danced around it. the Russian government, however, able to get away with it because we pretended not to notice rather than confronting it.

    Putin despises the soft West and its leaders, the Obamas, the Merkels. Such people that seem to gather a tremendous amount of reverence in many circles in the West but for Putin he correctly puts them down as not having the nuts to take him on. He does, however respect strength and he is afraid of it. The collective West can put his regime back in its box, if it is willing to cut the crap and stand up.

    Here is a hint, when the Nordic security services, the Swedes, the Finns, the Norwegians, none of them known for hysterics, start flagging Russia as a serious problem, you listen. They have been flagging it up for years now.

    How does Putin regard Trump?
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    I headed "home" after graduating. I'd say the solution is a fairly simple one, just set a board price and ask it to be paid.
    On the finances, you can get more benefits living at home with parents rather than a partner as parental income isn't assessed for JSA and so forth...
    But yes I'd expect a board income to be paid in for an adult living with their parents over about 23.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    edited November 2017
    AndyJS said:

    Y0kel said:

    So now people are getting this whole Russian threat thing. The Trump thing, the Wikileaks thing, the absolutely dodge video of Trump doing things that would win Roy Moore's support and so on.

    And there was one time someone concluded on this site I should be a Minister of War because of my hostility towards the current Russian government.

    Putin despises the soft West and its leaders, the Obamas, the Merkels. Such people that seem to gather a tremendous amount of reverence in many circles in the West but for Putin he correctly puts them down as not having the nuts to take him on. He does, however respect strength and he is afraid of it. The collective West can put his regime back in its box, if it is willing to cut the crap and stand up.

    Here is a hint, when the Nordic security services, the Swedes, the Finns, the Norwegians, none of them known for hysterics, start flagging Russia as a serious problem, you listen. They have been flagging it up for years now.

    How does Putin regard Trump?
    There has been signals take of Russian officials using rather blunt terminology that can more diplomatically be interpreted as a statement of ownership.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Re Roy Moore - Seems he has trumped the Trump !

    I'll be sorely disappointed in Alabama if he doesn't make it.
  • Options
    I'm not sure whether the point has already been made, but focusing during a GE on calling Jacob Rees-Mogg a dangerous and bad man unfit to be PM would be likely to have as much success as the Tory strategy earlier this year of saying the same things about Jeremy Corbyn.

    If Theresa May leaves office fast (and the antis need only eight more signatures), she could possibly be replaced by David Davis, but I still think JRM would be more likely. He's less tainted. TM falling would be undisentanglably bound up in people's minds with Brexit incompetence. If she hangs on for a while, JRM is almost nailed on.
  • Options
    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    Pulpstar said:

    Re Roy Moore - Seems he has trumped the Trump !

    I'll be sorely disappointed in Alabama if he doesn't make it.

    I note the GOP has got to the "Lets write in Luther Strange" stage of their denial about their base in AL.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307
    Pulpstar said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Re Roy Moore - Seems he has trumped the Trump !

    I'll be sorely disappointed in Alabama if he doesn't make it.

    I note the GOP has got to the "Lets write in Luther Strange" stage of their denial about their base in AL.
    In the unlikely event he gets elected they'll find a way to get rid. The evidence is taking on steam train proportions even in the last two hours.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Cylinder said:

    I'm not sure whether the point has already been made, but focusing during a GE on calling Jacob Rees-Mogg a dangerous and bad man unfit to be PM would be likely to have as much success as the Tory strategy earlier this year of saying the same things about Jeremy Corbyn.

    If Theresa May leaves office fast (and the antis need only eight more signatures), she could possibly be replaced by David Davis, but I still think JRM would be more likely. He's less tainted. TM falling would be undisentanglably bound up in people's minds with Brexit incompetence. If she hangs on for a while, JRM is almost nailed on.

    JRM would be straight to hard Brexit no questions asked. I don't think MPs would put him through to the final 2 until Brexit is completed which makes Davis the more likely choice as next PM. Mogg would be more likely to be Leader of the Opposition
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028

    As Emperor Kahless said, destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a war to save an Empire is no defeat.

    https://twitter.com/thistlejohn/status/930200749816107009

    This the same SNP who lost almost half their seats in June? They can now be safely ignored on indyref2. The Scottish electors resoundingly thumped Sturgeon on that by giving 63% of their votes to Unionist parties.
  • Options

    On topic: Those odds are raving bonkers.

    I do love wishful thinking in political betting markets. Wise heads will look not at what they want to happen, but what is likely to happen. That means understanding the mechanism of any purported change of direction. In this case, there isn't one that doesn't involve heroic political and (more importantly) legal somersaults.

    Agreed sadly. I went into this market yesterday and for the odds to have shifted further is bonkers.
  • Options
    Y0kel said:


    May's speech is politically convenient, it isn't just a PM taking care of UK security business.

    And quite a contrast with Trump....I wonder what former FM Salmond would have to say?
  • Options
    TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    Scott_P said:

    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    Nick Timothy got sacked, and Hammond didn't
    They are both abjectly inept though.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Y0kel said:


    May's speech is politically convenient, it isn't just a PM taking care of UK security business.

    And quite a contrast with Trump....I wonder what former FM Salmond would have to say?
    And from my earlier missive:

    'Putin is a schemer and no more. Any disruptive forces to western liberal democracy are courted as well as individuals within political parties who can influence pro-Russian policy.'
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,835

    On topic: Those odds are raving bonkers.

    I do love wishful thinking in political betting markets. Wise heads will look not at what they want to happen, but what is likely to happen. That means understanding the mechanism of any purported change of direction. In this case, there isn't one that doesn't involve heroic political and (more importantly) legal somersaults.

    Agreed sadly. I went into this market yesterday and for the odds to have shifted further is bonkers.
    I also agree. I am however concerned by the applicable definition of "leaving the EU". Bets on a Greek default were evaded by the bookies redefining the word "default". If the UK formally leaves on schedule but a transition deal is in place, will the bookies still pay out?
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    Y0kel said:

    Putin despises the soft West and its leaders, the Obamas, the Merkels...

    Do you really think Putin regards Merkel as soft? On the contrary, she has been a constant thorn in his side since she evicted Gerhard Schroeder from office.
  • Options
    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited November 2017
    viewcode said:

    On topic: Those odds are raving bonkers.

    I do love wishful thinking in political betting markets. Wise heads will look not at what they want to happen, but what is likely to happen. That means understanding the mechanism of any purported change of direction. In this case, there isn't one that doesn't involve heroic political and (more importantly) legal somersaults.

    Agreed sadly. I went into this market yesterday and for the odds to have shifted further is bonkers.
    I also agree. I am however concerned by the applicable definition of "leaving the EU". Bets on a Greek default were evaded by the bookies redefining the word "default". If the UK formally leaves on schedule but a transition deal is in place, will the bookies still pay out?
    I bet on the Betfair market. It's wording excludes a transition and uses the treaties ceasing to apply which is the language of A50 it's self. The danger with Betfair is there is no wiggle room. They are using the current departure date. So even a days extension of the A50 period let alone a month or two to give time for the A50 agreement to be ratified would see me lose money. Though of course I may trade out if the opportunity arises. The terms of other Bookies may vary.
  • Options
    Y0kelY0kel Posts: 2,307

    Y0kel said:

    Putin despises the soft West and its leaders, the Obamas, the Merkels...

    Do you really think Putin regards Merkel as soft? On the contrary, she has been a constant thorn in his side since she evicted Gerhard Schroeder from office.
    He does yes.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    @Cyclefree - what a depressing tale. By way of comparison, I know somebody who went to university, left without obtaining any sort of degree, and since then has been living at home. He's now been there for more than 5 years, playing video games and watching TV and films. He has never worked for more than a couple of consecutive weeks in that time, and even that happens less than once a year. We are all worried about his future, but his mother seems prepared to keep supporting him indefinitely.

    I suppose I shouldn't be surprised, but I don't understand Mr Palmer's attitude at all. Being shy and retiring is not justification to be parasitic on your family and society in general. You said that he can be nasty if challenged; that makes me think he's quite aware of what he's doing. The person I describe above quite openly says he doesn't have to worry about housing because he will eventually inherit, and thinks that claiming JSA in order to fund holidays is acceptable.

    I think a big part of the problem is the Internet and related media; it acts like the soma in Huxley's Brave New World. You don't need to get depressed if you endlessly stimulate yourself with new shows and games. This person, and your acquaintance, are too intelligent to not be aware of what they are doing and the consequences for others. It is a form of narcissistic selfishness.

    In terms of responses, I don't think shutting the door totally is realistic. What might work is forcing them out of the house during working hours, so they can't do what they want whenever they want. Not having WiFi at home is another option to consider.

    Apologies for the essay; just thought I'd share my story.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,835

    viewcode said:

    On topic: Those odds are raving bonkers.

    I do love wishful thinking in political betting markets. Wise heads will look not at what they want to happen, but what is likely to happen. That means understanding the mechanism of any purported change of direction. In this case, there isn't one that doesn't involve heroic political and (more importantly) legal somersaults.

    Agreed sadly. I went into this market yesterday and for the odds to have shifted further is bonkers.
    I also agree. I am however concerned by the applicable definition of "leaving the EU". Bets on a Greek default were evaded by the bookies redefining the word "default". If the UK formally leaves on schedule but a transition deal is in place, will the bookies still pay out?
    I bet on the Betfair market. It's wording excludes a transition and uses the treaties ceasing to apply which is the language of A50 it's self. The danger with Betfair is there is no wiggle room. They are using the current departure date. So even a days extension of the A50 period let alone a month or two to give time for the A50 agreement to be ratified would see me lose money. Though of course I may trade out if the opportunity arises. The terms of other Bookies may vary.
    Thank you
  • Options
    Y0kel said:

    Y0kel said:

    Putin despises the soft West and its leaders, the Obamas, the Merkels...

    Do you really think Putin regards Merkel as soft? On the contrary, she has been a constant thorn in his side since she evicted Gerhard Schroeder from office.
    He does yes.
    Or at least in the 'useful idiot' category - her refugee stunt helped tip BREXIT.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,835
    @Cyclefree

    I'm not quite sure what to say here, but the impression I took from the description of this adult child was that of a self-aware individual using threats to himself and others to leverage money and shelter from parents and relatives. The advices from others of voluntary and helping services (therapy, getting friends involved) may misunderstand the problem: this is not somebody who needs help, but is a threat that needs defending against. Perhaps the time has come for involuntary or coercive measures (evict him, change the locks, contact social services, lawyers, courts or the police). If they feel threatened the parents can rent people to do the eviction. I know this is awkward and difficult but I'm not sure any other method will work.

    If I've got this wrong, please feel free to tell me to bog off.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/930199927694725120

    Incredible.
    What fun he must have been to work with.
  • Options
    rkrkrk said:

    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/930199927694725120

    Incredible.
    What fun he must have been to work with.
    Lets see what sort of budget spreadsheet Phil delivers......
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    rkrkrk said:

    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/930199927694725120

    Incredible.
    What fun he must have been to work with.
    Lets see what sort of budget spreadsheet Phil delivers......
    My expectations are not high on that front.

    But having masterminded a cataclysmic election result, been identified as the person MPs want out for bullying behaviour etc. and yet merely months later to be laying into the chancellor and asking if he actually wants to improve people’s lives that much shows extraordinary gumption.

    It’s also I guess rather unhelpful to Theresa May.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/930199927694725120

    Incredible.
    What fun he must have been to work with.
    Lets see what sort of budget spreadsheet Phil delivers......
    My expectations are not high on that front.

    But having masterminded a cataclysmic election result, been identified as the person MPs want out for bullying behaviour etc. and yet merely months later to be laying into the chancellor and asking if he actually wants to improve people’s lives that much shows extraordinary gumption.

    It’s also I guess rather unhelpful to Theresa May.
    Which "Conservative thinkers" is Nick Timothy thinking of here:

    Even on the budget deficit, it is not clear that Hammond is correct. As many economists and Conservative thinkers have said, there is no need to make a fetish of running a surplus every year or even most years.
  • Options
    AlsoIndigoAlsoIndigo Posts: 1,852

    rkrkrk said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Nick Timothy can't stop stirring can he.

    I hoped he would learn some humility after the disaster of June 8th, but no

    https://twitter.com/tnewtondunn/status/930199927694725120

    Incredible.
    What fun he must have been to work with.
    Lets see what sort of budget spreadsheet Phil delivers......
    My expectations are not high on that front.

    But having masterminded a cataclysmic election result, been identified as the person MPs want out for bullying behaviour etc. and yet merely months later to be laying into the chancellor and asking if he actually wants to improve people’s lives that much shows extraordinary gumption.

    It’s also I guess rather unhelpful to Theresa May.
    Which "Conservative thinkers" is Nick Timothy thinking of here:

    Even on the budget deficit, it is not clear that Hammond is correct. As many economists and Conservative thinkers have said, there is no need to make a fetish of running a surplus every year or even most years.
    Managing more than once every 15 years or so would be nice.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Nigelb said:

    Underwhelming, in terms of the various Trump investigations.

    Endearingly batshit in places, though - ambassador to Australia ???

    I think it’s pretty explosive stuff... you have definite collusion there with WikiLeaks. Who basically admit as much in the emails that they are pro-Russian/working for Putin.
  • Options

    As Emperor Kahless said, destroying an Empire to win a war is no victory, and ending a war to save an Empire is no defeat.

    The British Empire was effectively destroyed to win WWII and that was a victory.
  • Options


    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.

    The obvious way to do it would be with a new referendum, which could go either way. Nobody would need to override the stated intent of the voters if the voters stated a new intent.

    Whether such a referendum could happen is mostly a question about internal Conservative party politics. But it would serve May well to hold one, not least because the leavers would have to go easy on demagoguing her deal as a betrayal of Britain etc etc for fear of losing the referendum.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079

    If the EU were smart (about us staying) they would be throwing a bone on FOM after Christmas.

    I suggest you read this article before thinking that there is a bone to be thrown on FOM.

    https://www.ft.com/content/49dc02dc-c637-11e7-a1d2-6786f39ef675
  • Options
    The odds are, as @Richard_Nabavi says, raving bonkers. That said, the odds of no or delayed Brexit did improve sharply yesterday. There's still masses of value in "Yes" on the above bet, mind.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    One minister describes Mrs Zaghari-Ratcliffe as “collateral damage” of the cabinet’s Europe wars. “Boris’s whole reckless, slapdash, unserious approach to diplomacy has put her in a worse position,” he says. “The government is paralysed by Brexit which means our entire foreign policy position is in a mess. Because of the weak prime minister and the personality of the foreign secretary, other countries feel they can push us around.”

    Other ministers are convinced that they are more committed to each other than to a British citizen unfairly locked up in a foreign prison. “They’ve just been busy conspiring for their own advancement on the back of Theresa May’s weakness,” one says. “They’re destroying the country trying to promote their own careers. Now Nazanin has become the victim of their ambition.”


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/brexits-arch-plotters-care-only-for-themselves-h0lq5cmqp
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    Senior EU figures have said several times that they'd suspend A50 in a heartbeat if we asked them to. .

    That's not enough, though. They may well say that - but how on earth can they be sure that some minor (or indeed major) EU country won't block it? What's more, the UK couldn't know in advance: there's no mechanism for getting a binding commitment, and, failing such a commitment, we could find ourselves crashing out under Article 50(3) despite say, 26 out of 27 countries wanting us to stay in.
    From what I have been told by EU law academics, I believe that the Lisbon Treaty was written on the basis that it recognises the validity of the Vienna Convention on the Law if Treaties. It did so as to reduce its size and complexity, and because this is and was the prevailing convention on treaty law. Of course, this could be open to argument, as all things are.

    But Article 68 :
    A Notification or Instrument provided for in Article 65 or 67 (these deal with termination or withdrawal from treaties) may be revoked at any time before it takes effect.

    Article 26 defines the idea of 'Good Faith' in treaty law. Reading the two together then one might revoke unilaterally so long as it is not an attempt to circumvent the process of the treaty in question.

    https://treaties.un.org/doc/publication/unts/volume 1155/volume-1155-i-18232-english.pdf
  • Options
    Scott_P said:

    Now Nazanin has become the victim of their ambition.”

    Not the Iranian judiciary? It’s a view......and hysterical nonsense
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938
    TonyE said:

    Senior EU figures have said several times that they'd suspend A50 in a heartbeat if we asked them to. .

    That's not enough, though. They may well say that - but how on earth can they be sure that some minor (or indeed major) EU country won't block it? What's more, the UK couldn't know in advance: there's no mechanism for getting a binding commitment, and, failing such a commitment, we could find ourselves crashing out under Article 50(3) despite say, 26 out of 27 countries wanting us to stay in.
    From what I have been told by EU law academics, I believe that the Lisbon Treaty was written on the basis that it recognises the validity of the Vienna Convention on the Law if Treaties. It did so as to reduce its size and complexity, and because this is and was the prevailing convention on treaty law. Of course, this could be open to argument, as all things are.

    But Article 68 :
    A Notification or Instrument provided for in Article 65 or 67 (these deal with termination or withdrawal from treaties) may be revoked at any time before it takes effect.

    Article 26 defines the idea of 'Good Faith' in treaty law. Reading the two together then one might revoke unilaterally so long as it is not an attempt to circumvent the process of the treaty in question.

    https://treaties.un.org/doc/publication/unts/volume 1155/volume-1155-i-18232-english.pdf
    I should add though - this is a dissenting article with some very persuasive arguments:

    https://blogs.sussex.ac.uk/uktpo/2017/03/17/can-a-notification-under-article-50-teu-be-unilaterally-withdrawn/
  • Options


    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.

    The obvious way to do it would be with a new referendum, which could go either way. Nobody would need to override the stated intent of the voters if the voters stated a new intent.

    Whether such a referendum could happen is mostly a question about internal Conservative party politics. But it would serve May well to hold one, not least because the leavers would have to go easy on demagoguing her deal as a betrayal of Britain etc etc for fear of losing the referendum.
    Agreed, but "the stated intent of the voters" now seems to have replaced "the will of the people". It needs to be remembered that the people were pretty indecisive and that the result was very close. And that was at the time when the £350million/week was going to be given to the NHS.
  • Options
    Where can I make money from these naïve punters?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Not the Iranian judiciary?

    They are not mutually exclusive.

    The Iranians put her in jail. The narcissistic manoeuvrings of Laurel and Hardy have not improved her lot.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @tamcohen: Meanwhile William Hague in the Telegraph says its time for May and Davis to make an offer on the EU divorce bill "and there's no point people responding with outrage"
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125


    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.

    The obvious way to do it would be with a new referendum, which could go either way. Nobody would need to override the stated intent of the voters if the voters stated a new intent.

    Whether such a referendum could happen is mostly a question about internal Conservative party politics. But it would serve May well to hold one, not least because the leavers would have to go easy on demagoguing her deal as a betrayal of Britain etc etc for fear of losing the referendum.
    You are just result shopping.... How very EU.
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
    Not necessarily.

    As discussed above, it's likely the EU27 would agree to cancel A50 should we wish to communicate it.

    I don't think think it's likely.

    But it's now possible.

    The odds are slight, but improving.
    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.
    The key determinant is public opinion.

    The MPs will largely (not completely) follow the voters on this.

    And I suspect, so would the EU.

    If the EU were smart (about us staying) they would be throwing a bone on FOM after Christmas.
    Even IF the EU were smart, I ca't see FOM her ethey can offer a bone.

    They just can't. Any concession on FOM is one that MANY other states will want too.
  • Options
    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,435
    I note that there is a by-election today in Mr Meeks neck of the woods (Broadgate for the Corporation of London). Three independents are standing.
  • Options
    TonyETonyE Posts: 938

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
    Not necessarily.

    As discussed above, it's likely the EU27 would agree to cancel A50 should we wish to communicate it.

    I don't think think it's likely.

    But it's now possible.

    The odds are slight, but improving.
    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.
    The key determinant is public opinion.

    The MPs will largely (not completely) follow the voters on this.

    And I suspect, so would the EU.

    If the EU were smart (about us staying) they would be throwing a bone on FOM after Christmas.
    Even IF the EU were smart, I ca't see FOM her ethey can offer a bone.

    They just can't. Any concession on FOM is one that MANY other states will want too.
    They probably can't - but it's never been FOM that's caused the problem with FOM in the first place. It's the equality laws which provide that for non contributory welfare systems (NHS/in work benefits etc) then there must be no barriers that do not apply to domestic citizens. It means that for EU migrants (and in fact any migrant), the risk of emigrating to the UK is lower than to other nations in the EU whose systems are contributory.
  • Options
    old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    Roy Moore was banned from a shopping mall because of inappropriate interactions with teenage girls.

    https://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk/locals-were-troubled-by-roy-moores-interactions-with-teen-girls-at-the-gadsden-mall
  • Options
    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138


    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....
    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."
    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.

    The obvious way to do it would be with a new referendum, which could go either way. Nobody would need to override the stated intent of the voters if the voters stated a new intent.
    Whether such a referendum could happen is mostly a question about internal Conservative party politics. But it would serve May well to hold one, not least because the leavers would have to go easy on demagoguing her deal as a betrayal of Britain etc etc for fear of losing the referendum.
    Agreed, but "the stated intent of the voters" now seems to have replaced "the will of the people". It needs to be remembered that the people were pretty indecisive and that the result was very close. And that was at the time when the £350million/week was going to be given to the NHS.
    We are still waiting for our FIRST Referendum, based on facts and serious negotiations. Mr Cameron (Conservative) did promise us one.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,079
    Scott_P said:

    @tamcohen: Meanwhile William Hague in the Telegraph says its time for May and Davis to make an offer on the EU divorce bill "and there's no point people responding with outrage"

    So we shouldn’t expect him to get behind a ‘Keep the 60 billion Pounds’ campaign?
  • Options
    daodaodaodao Posts: 821
    edited November 2017
    Scott_P said:

    Not the Iranian judiciary?

    They are not mutually exclusive.

    The Iranians put her in jail. The narcissistic manoeuvrings of Laurel and Hardy have not improved her lot.
    She has dual nationality, and unfortunately for her, she is in the country of that other nationality, which takes precedence, so there is little that the UK can do to help her, particularly in view of the biased foreign policy that this UK government is pursuing, in league with the criminal Saudi and the Zionist regimes.

    Post-Brexit, the UK needs to detach itself from EU foreign policy and deal with foreign states and national liberation movements in a more neutral even-handed way - so more cordial relations with Russia, Iran and Hamas are desirable, but NOT in a biased manner. A Corbyn-led government would be much better placed to do this.

    The Maybot is making matters worse with her latest comments about Russia, as if the West doesn't behave similarly, e.g. in the Ukraine (2004 and 2014) or Chile (1973). And as for Priti Patel, her behaviour was completely out-of-order, but it took nearly 3 months before she was exposed and she only "resigned" because she was found out.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    daodao said:

    She has dual nationality, and unfortunately for her, she is in the country of that other nationality, which takes precedence, so there is little that the UK can do to help her, particularly in view of the biased foreign policy that this UK government is pursuing, in league with the criminal Saudi and the Zionist regimes.

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/930333232553496578
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905
    TonyE said:

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
    Not necessarily.

    As discussed above, it's likely the EU27 would agree to cancel A50 should we wish to communicate it.

    I don't think think it's likely.

    But it's now possible.

    The odds are slight, but improving.
    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.
    The key determinant is public opinion.

    The MPs will largely (not completely) follow the voters on this.

    And I suspect, so would the EU.

    If the EU were smart (about us staying) they would be throwing a bone on FOM after Christmas.
    Even IF the EU were smart, I ca't see FOM her ethey can offer a bone.

    They just can't. Any concession on FOM is one that MANY other states will want too.
    They probably can't - but it's never been FOM that's caused the problem with FOM in the first place. It's the equality laws which provide that for non contributory welfare systems (NHS/in work benefits etc) then there must be no barriers that do not apply to domestic citizens. It means that for EU migrants (and in fact any migrant), the risk of emigrating to the UK is lower than to other nations in the EU whose systems are contributory.
    Indeed. It all comes back to Gordon Brown’s Tax Credits, the most pernicious government policy of the last 40 years.
  • Options

    Where can I make money from these naïve punters?

    Betfair:

    https://www.betfair.com/exchange/plus/politics/market/1.130766060

    I do wonder if the odds are being influenced by bad wording. Although from the rules it's clear that Yes will win if the UK leaves on 29/3/19, from the title of the market, you could be forgiven for thinking that it'll be settled on whether Britain leaves before that date.
  • Options

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
    Not necessarily.

    As discussed above, it's likely the EU27 would agree to cancel A50 should we wish to communicate it.

    I don't think think it's likely.

    But it's now possible.

    The odds are slight, but improving.
    The political fallout from the MPs over-riding the stated intent of the voters would be huge. We know better than you do say the MPs. Wanna bet? the voters will say - at the earliest opportunity.....

    The odds on the MPs doing that are tiny. And it would just mean a whole new raft would put themselves forward, determined to deliver Brexit come what may. Which is why at least one of the 27 will say "What's the point? They are going - this year, next year, five years down the road...."

    The only way Brexit gets defeated is by rejoining.
    The key determinant is public opinion.

    The MPs will largely (not completely) follow the voters on this.

    And I suspect, so would the EU.

    If the EU were smart (about us staying) they would be throwing a bone on FOM after Christmas.
    They couldn't do that, even if they wanted to (which I'm sure they don't) because it'd go counter to the treaties. And similarly, while a lot of people want to simply wish this point away, the European Council does not have the sovereignty to make an agreement counter to the treaties that govern the running of the EU.

    Put simply, no-one knows whether the EU - even all 28 members and the Commission and EP - could cancel Brexit by agreement because there's no provision within the treaties and an 'indefinite extension of the exit period' could be considered to run counter to the spirit of the treaties. Basically, everyone would be taking a massive flyer that the ECJ would endorse the Council agreement - because if it didn't, all hell would break loose.

    But then, if Brexit were cancelled without a new mandate in Britain (for which there's getting to be precious little time), all hell would break loose here.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,044
    Scott_P said:

    daodao said:

    She has dual nationality, and unfortunately for her, she is in the country of that other nationality, which takes precedence, so there is little that the UK can do to help her, particularly in view of the biased foreign policy that this UK government is pursuing, in league with the criminal Saudi and the Zionist regimes.

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/930333232553496578
    That seems a little insane. It's a bit of a nuclear option, isn't it? At which point Iran and other vile regimes will look at their citizens we have in prison and reciprocate.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    That seems a little insane.

    Tezza's entire premiership could be described that way
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,905
    edited November 2017

    Scott_P said:

    daodao said:

    She has dual nationality, and unfortunately for her, she is in the country of that other nationality, which takes precedence, so there is little that the UK can do to help her, particularly in view of the biased foreign policy that this UK government is pursuing, in league with the criminal Saudi and the Zionist regimes.

    https://twitter.com/thetimes/status/930333232553496578
    That seems a little insane. It's a bit of a nuclear option, isn't it? At which point Iran and other vile regimes will look at their citizens we have in prison and reciprocate.
    The lady in question is also an Iranian citizen, there’s no reason they wouldn’t charge her with spying if we tried to get her diplomatic immunity.

    The only way this gets resolved is by sending a very contrite Boris to Tehran to negotiate her release - almost anything else we do, including headlines like that in the Times, are likely to only make the situation worse.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    The EU won't change on FOM for the reason that Mr Mark points out. They'll let us go happily if they can extort enough money (with a poor trade deal) out of us. Both to keep them running and to discourage others

    Labour are hoping to make things look as awkward as possible in the next 19 months and even longer if they can wangle a transition period. Then they want to be able to lead an MPs rebellion to say NO to whatever deal is arranged, or as a second prize to vote for a second referendum, claiming the public want it. And they always do what the public want.

    They could, of course, tell the truth, and make a virtue out of honesty, but they won't.

    This is school ground chicanery, and that's why I have little respect for politicians.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Even if it still seems far fetched, we do now seem to have a technical route to Remain.

    But public opinion has barely budged.
    Unless we can see a fixed majority against Brexit in polling over the next 12 months, will Parliament really vote down a Brexit agreement?

    It's still a Paarliamentary approved agreement - or no agreement. We leave the EU either way. Thems the options.
    Except there are two other options. We could remain. Or we could choose to leave over a longer timescale.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Sandpit said:

    The only way this gets resolved is by sending a very contrite Boris to Tehran to negotiate her release - almost anything else we do, including headlines like that in the Times, are likely to only make the situation worse.

    There are a couple of problems with that plan.

    Boris, and Boris...
This discussion has been closed.