Sadly, while introspection and self-critique are good traits to have, too many Brits are all too willing uncritically to believe any criticism of the UK. It is almost as if some, such as Yellow Submarine in the last thread talking about 'caving in' to the EU's demands on citizenship, want us to fail as a nation in order to prove how rotten this government is.
Britain is not its government (thank god, regardless of party in power) and is a stronger, nicer, richer country than you would think if you just read PB (or any group of political analysts for that matter).
But I don't think the UK is unique in this regard. If the article you reference had references to the UK blanked out, you could justifiably guess that it was talking about the US, France, Turkey, Russia - or even Sweden or Germany. Our social and economic problems in Britain are not unique - the whole world is going through pretty much the same - or if not the same, very equivalent - social and economic ructions.
Introspection and self-critique are only good traits if they lead to optimistic, forward-looking, ambitious but realistic plans. Otherwise, it's just bellyaching and victimhood. Nobody loves a whiner.
At any rate, the whole Western world is going through the same, bar commodity exporters.
Western dominance was based on two centuries of technological superiority derived from the industrial revolution.
When that dominance goes we are left with the question I posed a decade ago - in a globalised world economy how do we maintain a higher standard of living compared to peoples who are as intelligent and educated as we are but who are willing to work harder, at lower cost and under fewer restrictions that we do ?
Why would our ambition be to have higher living standards than another group of people? Why not just everyone gets higher living standards? Or higher living standards than previous generations?
Sadly, while introspection and self-critique are good traits to have, too many Brits are all too willing uncritically to believe any criticism of the UK. It is almost as if some, such as Yellow Submarine in the last thread talking about 'caving in' to the EU's demands on citizenship, want us to fail as a nation in order to prove how rotten this government is.
Britain is not its government (thank god, regardless of party in power) and is a stronger, nicer, richer country than you would think if you just read PB (or any group of political analysts for that matter).
But I don't think the UK is unique in this regard. If the article you reference had references to the UK blanked out, you could justifiably guess that it was talking about the US, France, Turkey, Russia - or even Sweden or Germany. Our social and economic problems in Britain are not unique - the whole world is going through pretty much the same - or if not the same, very equivalent - social and economic ructions.
Introspection and self-critique are only good traits if they lead to optimistic, forward-looking, ambitious but realistic plans. Otherwise, it's just bellyaching and victimhood. Nobody loves a whiner.
At any rate, the whole Western world is going through the same, bar commodity exporters.
Western dominance was based on two centuries of technological superiority derived from the industrial revolution.
When that dominance goes we are left with the question I posed a decade ago - in a globalised world economy how do we maintain a higher standard of living compared to peoples who are as intelligent and educated as we are but who are willing to work harder, at lower cost and under fewer restrictions that we do ?
We still have advantages, such as functioning independent courts, an honest legal system and civil service, low levels of violence, and an infrastructure that works, which make the UK, and similar countries, attractive to do business in.
But to all intents and purposes it still seems we are as divided as we were last year and hardly anyone at all is reaching out to meet the other side half way. .... Would a compromise be desirable or possible at this point? Or are we too far gone?
How I am (as a Remainer) supposed to compromise? No one has been able to definitely show that there will be no economic damage from Brexit, indeed the closer it gets the more likely it looks that there will be a huge economic impact.
The more vocal Leavers seem to care little about the economic impact as long as we "take back control" or "cut immigration". We never had control and we need immigrants from somewhere.
So where is the overlap? Where is the common ground? For me the coming economic dislocation is the major element that will wreck lives in this country.
How am I supposed to support a policy which I feel will be so damaging and detrimental no matter how it is implemented and which offers nothing in return? Post Brexit we will still not have control and we will still need immigrants.
Sadly, while introspection and self-critique are good traits to have, too many Brits are all too willing uncritically to believe any criticism of the UK. It is almost as if some, such as Yellow Submarine in the last thread talking about 'caving in' to the EU's demands on citizenship, want us to fail as a nation in order to prove how rotten this government is.
Britain is not its government (thank god, regardless of party in power) and is a stronger, nicer, richer country than you would think if you just read PB (or any group of political analysts for that matter).
But I don't think the UK is unique in this regard. If the article you reference had references to the UK blanked out, you could justifiably guess that it was talking about the US, France, Turkey, Russia - or even Sweden or Germany. Our social and economic problems in Britain are not unique - the whole world is going through pretty much the same - or if not the same, very equivalent - social and economic ructions.
Introspection and self-critique are only good traits if they lead to optimistic, forward-looking, ambitious but realistic plans. Otherwise, it's just bellyaching and victimhood. Nobody loves a whiner.
At any rate, the whole Western world is going through the same, bar commodity exporters.
Western dominance was based on two centuries of technological superiority derived from the industrial revolution.
When that dominance goes we are left with the question I posed a decade ago - in a globalised world economy how do we maintain a higher standard of living compared to peoples who are as intelligent and educated as we are but who are willing to work harder, at lower cost and under fewer restrictions that we do ?
We still have advantages, such as functioning independent courts, an honest legal system and civil service, low levels of violence, and an infrastructure that works, which make the UK, and similar countries, attractive to do business in.
But even those advantages diminish steadily.
Not least because of the loss of faith people have with their own institutions.
In particular the loss of faith in capitalism - the likes of Goodwin and Green, the taxdodging of multinationals and their pandering from governments have been major self-inflicted wounds.
Sadly, while introspection and self-critique are good traits to have, too many Brits are all too willing uncritically to believe any criticism of the UK. It is almost as if some, such as Yellow Submarine in the last thread talking about 'caving in' to the EU's demands on citizenship, want us to fail as a nation in order to prove how rotten this government is.
Britain is not its government (thank god, regardless of party in power) and is a stronger, nicer, richer country than you would think if you just read PB (or any group of political analysts for that matter).
But I don't think the UK is unique in this regard. If the article you reference had references to the UK blanked out, you could justifiably guess that it was talking about the US, France, Turkey, Russia - or even Sweden or Germany. Our social and economic problems in Britain are not unique - the whole world is going through pretty much the same - or if not the same, very equivalent - social and economic ructions.
Introspection and self-critique are only good traits if they lead to optimistic, forward-looking, ambitious but realistic plans. Otherwise, it's just bellyaching and victimhood. Nobody loves a whiner.
At any rate, the whole Western world is going through the same, bar commodity exporters.
Western dominance was based on two centuries of technological superiority derived from the industrial revolution.
When that dominance goes we are left with the question I posed a decade ago - in a globalised world economy how do we maintain a higher standard of living compared to peoples who are as intelligent and educated as we are but who are willing to work harder, at lower cost and under fewer restrictions that we do ?
Why would our ambition be to have higher living standards than another group of people? Why not just everyone gets higher living standards? Or higher living standards than previous generations?
We already have the higher living standards and while a levelling up would be good a levelling down wouldn't.
And its the levelling down which has been happening to increasing numbers in the western world.
But to all intents and purposes it still seems we are as divided as we were last year and hardly anyone at all is reaching out to meet the other side half way. .... Would a compromise be desirable or possible at this point? Or are we too far gone?
How I am (as a Remainer) supposed to compromise? No one has been able to definitely show that there will be no economic damage from Brexit, indeed the closer it gets the more likely it looks that there will be a huge economic impact.
The more vocal Leavers seem to care little about the economic impact as long as we "take back control" or "cut immigration". We never had control and we need immigrants from somewhere.
So where is the overlap? Where is the common ground? For me the coming economic dislocation is the major element that will wreck lives in this country.
How am I supposed to support a policy which I feel will be so damaging and detrimental no matter how it is implemented and which offers nothing in return? Post Brexit we will still not have control and we will still need immigrants.
So what is the point of Brexit?
I think you've illustrated my point quite nicely. We are where we were a year and a half ago - with a near 50/50 split down the middle of two groups of people with completely opposing objectives and points of view squaring off against each other.
I'll confess to being a sovereignty nut who agrees with you on immigration - the economy runs on it and it will take us a long time to wean ourselves off that particular drug and would require enormous structural reforms to do so. But I can also see the point of view of a working class leaver who has seen their standard of living and pay stagnate or even fall as they have had to compete with beds-in-sheds immigrants in a neverending race to the bottom. As HUYFD has noted downthread, in many respects they are far more 'ideological' in their opposition to the EU than leavers of my ilk, who would happily accept a 'soft' Brexit.
My point was, at this point, is there any kind of horse trading that could be sold to the public as an acceptable compromise? The answer, I suspect, is not.
But to all intents and purposes it still seems we are as divided as we were last year and hardly anyone at all is reaching out to meet the other side half way. .... Would a compromise be desirable or possible at this point? Or are we too far gone?
How I am (as a Remainer) supposed to compromise? No one has been able to definitely show that there will be no economic damage from Brexit, indeed the closer it gets the more likely it looks that there will be a huge economic impact.
The more vocal Leavers seem to care little about the economic impact as long as we "take back control" or "cut immigration". We never had control and we need immigrants from somewhere.
So where is the overlap? Where is the common ground? For me the coming economic dislocation is the major element that will wreck lives in this country.
How am I supposed to support a policy which I feel will be so damaging and detrimental no matter how it is implemented and which offers nothing in return? Post Brexit we will still not have control and we will still need immigrants.
But to all intents and purposes it still seems we are as divided as we were last year and hardly anyone at all is reaching out to meet the other side half way. .... Would a compromise be desirable or possible at this point? Or are we too far gone?
How I am (as a Remainer) supposed to compromise? No one has been able to definitely show that there will be no economic damage from Brexit, indeed the closer it gets the more likely it looks that there will be a huge economic impact.
The more vocal Leavers seem to care little about the economic impact as long as we "take back control" or "cut immigration". We never had control and we need immigrants from somewhere.
So where is the overlap? Where is the common ground? For me the coming economic dislocation is the major element that will wreck lives in this country.
How am I supposed to support a policy which I feel will be so damaging and detrimental no matter how it is implemented and which offers nothing in return? Post Brexit we will still not have control and we will still need immigrants.
So what is the point of Brexit?
Unfortunately your posting illustrates that you are just as much of a fanatic as the hard Brexiteers. Given that one extreme or the other is bound to lose and that currently it is the pro EU fanatics who look like being thwarted I would suggest that seeking some form of compromise would be a good idea for you even if it seems impossible for you at the moment.
I see we're back to Brexit as a distraction from Gropegate which is it's self a distraction from Brexit. *Sighs*
And yet, as I raised the other week, nobody seems to have changed their mind (with a couple of notable exceptions - I think HYUFD and Big_G_NorthWales have, when I last raised this point). But to all intents and purposes it still seems we are as divided as we were last year and hardly anyone at all is reaching out to meet the other side half way.
Instead, we are digging in for what looks to be a very long, ugly war that will have no winners.
If there were to be a compromise agreement, what would it look like? Associate membership? "The whole EU inc., say the Euro" but without freedom of movement of people?
Would a compromise be desirable or possible at this point? Or are we too far gone?
define what you mean by 'changed my mind'.
I voted and campaigned for remain. I accept Brexit and want it to be implemented because that was the democratic decision. My first choice would be for a Norway style Brexit, but I would rather have a hard chaotic brexit than no Brexit at all, given the forces that would ultimately unleash and which I saw first hand whilst handing out patronising, shit 'stronger in' propoganda.
I'm not in any way happy about it, frankly I am devastated. How am I supposed to be happy about something that has had enormous personal consequences for me personally being married to an EU citizen, and is proving to be a national humiliation ?
But to all intents and purposes it still seems we are as divided as we were last year and hardly anyone at all is reaching out to meet the other side half way. .... Would a compromise be desirable or possible at this point? Or are we too far gone?
How I am (as a Remainer) supposed to compromise? No one has been able to definitely show that there will be no economic damage from Brexit, indeed the closer it gets the more likely it looks that there will be a huge economic impact.
The more vocal Leavers seem to care little about the economic impact as long as we "take back control" or "cut immigration". We never had control and we need immigrants from somewhere.
So where is the overlap? Where is the common ground? For me the coming economic dislocation is the major element that will wreck lives in this country.
How am I supposed to support a policy which I feel will be so damaging and detrimental no matter how it is implemented and which offers nothing in return? Post Brexit we will still not have control and we will still need immigrants.
I think an independent Ombudsman is a very good idea. Otherwise the temptation for parties to hush it up is almost irresistible.
It is the Bex Bailey affair that is the most serious -- alleged rape and cover-up.
Are you saying that is being investigated by an independent QC? Why isn’t it being investigated by the police?
Surely, the Labour Party should be urging this (after all, it would only be matching what the Tory party did over Elphicke).
Why aren't the police investigating it themselves ?
They’ll only investigate if they receive a complaint. Sadly for Miss Bailey, unless she’s got witnesses or other evidence from six years ago, it will be a hard one to prosecute. It’s difficult to get a conviction or even a charge for rape unless the police have a clearly injured woman in front of them making the complaint.
Where an independent investigator would be useful is in encouraging others to come forward. If the same name and same MO keeps coming up from unrelated victims, as in the case of Bill Cosby, there’s a good chance that in at least one case there’s enough evidence to prosecute. The maximum sentence for rape is life imprisonment. https://twitter.com/bexbailey/status/925726372730949632
But to all intents and purposes it still seems we are as divided as we were last year and hardly anyone at all is reaching out to meet the other side half way. .... Would a compromise be desirable or possible at this point? Or are we too far gone?
How I am (as a Remainer) supposed to compromise? No one has been able to definitely show that there will be no economic damage from Brexit, indeed the closer it gets the more likely it looks that there will be a huge economic impact.
The more vocal Leavers seem to care little about the economic impact as long as we "take back control" or "cut immigration". We never had control and we need immigrants from somewhere.
So where is the overlap? Where is the common ground? For me the coming economic dislocation is the major element that will wreck lives in this country.
How am I supposed to support a policy which I feel will be so damaging and detrimental no matter how it is implemented and which offers nothing in return? Post Brexit we will still not have control and we will still need immigrants.
So what is the point of Brexit?
I think you've illustrated my point quite nicely. We are where we were a year and a half ago - with a near 50/50 split down the middle of two groups of people with completely opposing objectives and points of view squaring off against each other.
I'll confess to being a sovereignty nut who agrees with you on immigration - the economy runs on it and it will take us a long time to wean ourselves off that particular drug and would require enormous structural reforms to do so. But I can also see the point of view of a working class leaver who has seen their standard of living and pay stagnate or even fall as they have had to compete with beds-in-sheds immigrants in a neverending race to the bottom. As HUYFD has noted downthread, in many respects they are far more 'ideological' in their opposition to the EU than leavers of my ilk, who would happily accept a 'soft' Brexit.
My point was, at this point, is there any kind of horse trading that could be sold to the public as an acceptable compromise? The answer, I suspect, is not.
Rudd is good. A glimpse of human in an increasingly barren Tory party. If they had any sense they would promote her.
Meanwhile, back in real Tory circles JRM continues to excite.
I seem to remember many Tories on here said the same about Liz Kendall and Corbyn in 2015. (For Kendall read Rudd and for Corbyn read JRM).
You are truly lost.
No, it is exactly the same scenario.
Tories were advising Labour members to pick Kendall over Corbyn as she was more 'electable' despite the fact that none of them would vote for a Kendall led Labour Party.
Now Labour supporters are advising Tory members to pick Rudd over JRM (or Boris) despite the fact none of them would vote for a Rudd led Tory Party.
Look at it this way. You may not vote for them, but some will get you off your fat arse and actively oppose them more than others. You need to activate your own base without being a recruiting sergeant for the opposition
May and Corbyn discovered this in June. JRM would be Labour's recruiting sergeant from heaven.
Corbyn was supposed to be the Tories recruiting sergeant from heaven but it did not quite work out that way as he motivated the left for him as much as JRM could motivate the right for him.
People want to vote for someone not just against someone.
Because the voters didn't believe Corbyn was in with a chance and wanted to limit May's majority. Now they believe Corbyn is in with a shout, and they will run a mile.
Not at the moment they aren't, at the moment we are heading for a Corbyn minority government.
Opinion polls are an excellent way for sending your party a message without the risk of electing the wrong people.
It is perfectly possible the Tories could win most seats next time and Corbyn still become PM through deals with minor parties a la New Zealand.
They had better be careful, deals with other parties are grubby after all.
The Tories would almost certainly go into opposition next time if they do not get a majority, especially as it is unlikely they will have enough with the DUP again in those circumstances and leave it up to Labour to do the deals.
I think an independent Ombudsman is a very good idea. Otherwise the temptation for parties to hush it up is almost irresistible.
It is the Bex Bailey affair that is the most serious -- alleged rape and cover-up.
Are you saying that is being investigated by an independent QC? Why isn’t it being investigated by the police?
Surely, the Labour Party should be urging this (after all, it would only be matching what the Tory party did over Elphicke).
Why aren't the police investigating it themselves ?
They’ll only investigate if they receive a complaint. Sadly for Miss Bailey, unless she’s got witnesses or other evidence from six years ago, it will be a hard one to prosecute. It’s difficult to get a conviction or even a charge for rape unless the police have a clearly injured woman in front of them making the complaint.
Where an independent investigator would be useful is in encouraging others to come forward. If the same name and same MO keeps coming up from unrelated victims, as in the cases of Bill Cosby, there’s a good chance that in at least one case there’s enough evidence to prosecute. The maximum sentence for rape is life imprisonment.
Wait a moment, there are two alleged crimes.
There is the alleged rape. And there is the alleged cover-up of the criminal activity.
There should be evidence in the Labour party records or among her friends in the Labour party that Bex Bailey made a complaint of rape.
But to all intents and purposes it still seems we are as divided as we were last year and hardly anyone at all is reaching out to meet the other side half way. .... Would a compromise be desirable or possible at this point? Or are we too far gone?
How I am (as a Remainer) supposed to compromise? No one has been able to definitely show that there will be no economic damage from Brexit, indeed the closer it gets the more likely it looks that there will be a huge economic impact.
The more vocal Leavers seem to care little about the economic impact as long as we "take back control" or "cut immigration". We never had control and we need immigrants from somewhere.
So where is the overlap? Where is the common ground? For me the coming economic dislocation is the major element that will wreck lives in this country.
How am I supposed to support a policy which I feel will be so damaging and detrimental no matter how it is implemented and which offers nothing in return? Post Brexit we will still not have control and we will still need immigrants.
So what is the point of Brexit?
The point of Brexit is it was the democratic will of the country.
And as to a compromise, then if you feel Brexit is going to be a disaster, work like a demon to mitigate that disaster - for your fellow citizens.
I seem to remember many Tories on here said the same about Liz Kendall and Corbyn in 2015. (For Kendall read Rudd and for Corbyn read JRM).
You are truly lost.
No, it is exactly the same scenario.
Tories were advising Labour members to pick Kendall over Corbyn as she was more 'electable' despite the fact that none of them would vote for a Kendall led Labour Party.
Now Labour supporters are advising Tory members to pick Rudd over JRM (or Boris) despite the fact none of them would vote for a Rudd led Tory Party.
Look at it this way. You may not vote for them, but some will get you off your fat arse and actively oppose them more than others. You need to activate your own base without being a recruiting sergeant for the opposition
May and Corbyn discovered this in June. JRM would be Labour's recruiting sergeant from heaven.
Corbyn was supposed to be the Tories recruiting sergeant from heaven but it did not quite work out that way as he motivated the left for him as much as JRM could motivate the right for him.
People want to vote for someone not just against someone.
Because the voters didn't believe Corbyn was in with a chance and wanted to limit May's majority. Now they believe Corbyn is in with a shout, and they will run a mile.
Not at the moment they aren't, at the moment we are heading for a Corbyn minority government.
Opinion polls are an excellent way for sending your party a message without the risk of electing the wrong people.
It is perfectly possible the Tories could win most seats next time and Corbyn still become PM through deals with minor parties a la New Zealand.
They had better be careful, deals with other parties are grubby after all.
The Tories would almost certainly go into opposition next time if they do not get a majority, especially as it is unlikely they will have enough with the DUP again in those circumstances and leave it up to Labour to do the deals.
The Tories need to go into opposition.
But none of the opposition parties need to go into government.
I suggest we invite some politicians from Singapoore to take control.
Unfortunately your posting illustrates that you are just as much of a fanatic as the hard Brexiteers.
No I am not. I am not trying to convince anyone to change or to have a second referendum. I am well past all that. I am just stating my position that Brexit will not solve anything and will likely just make everything worse.
"It is also needlessly alienating those Leavers in Parliament for whom Parliamentary sovereignty is a very big deal indeed."
I doubt many Leavers, inside or outside Parliament, will go against this even in their own minds - the halo effect is too strong. (ie If Brexit is a good thing, anything purportedly supporting Brexit must be a good thing - much as we found with the Article 50 court case, where Parliamentary sovereignty became rather less crucial to the sovereignty-its, and they tended to manage to genuinely rationalise it)
They voted for the UK to have Sovereignty restored.
Over the last 40 years Parliament has proven to have failed in its most sacred duty.
Once Sovereignty is secured then parliament can be left to go about its business, but it can't be trusted to take back what it gave away without authority from the voters
Comments
Why not just everyone gets higher living standards? Or higher living standards than previous generations?
And all heretics and unbelievers or flinching cowards and sneering traitors must be punished.
The more vocal Leavers seem to care little about the economic impact as long as we "take back control" or "cut immigration". We never had control and we need immigrants from somewhere.
So where is the overlap? Where is the common ground? For me the coming economic dislocation is the major element that will wreck lives in this country.
How am I supposed to support a policy which I feel will be so damaging and detrimental no matter how it is implemented and which offers nothing in return? Post Brexit we will still not have control and we will still need immigrants.
So what is the point of Brexit?
Not least because of the loss of faith people have with their own institutions.
In particular the loss of faith in capitalism - the likes of Goodwin and Green, the taxdodging of multinationals and their pandering from governments have been major self-inflicted wounds.
And its the levelling down which has been happening to increasing numbers in the western world.
It is the Bex Bailey affair that is the most serious -- alleged rape and cover-up.
Are you saying that is being investigated by an independent QC? Why isn’t it being investigated by the police?
Surely, the Labour Party should be urging this (after all, it would only be matching what the Tory party did over Elphicke).
I'll confess to being a sovereignty nut who agrees with you on immigration - the economy runs on it and it will take us a long time to wean ourselves off that particular drug and would require enormous structural reforms to do so. But I can also see the point of view of a working class leaver who has seen their standard of living and pay stagnate or even fall as they have had to compete with beds-in-sheds immigrants in a neverending race to the bottom. As HUYFD has noted downthread, in many respects they are far more 'ideological' in their opposition to the EU than leavers of my ilk, who would happily accept a 'soft' Brexit.
My point was, at this point, is there any kind of horse trading that could be sold to the public as an acceptable compromise? The answer, I suspect, is not.
Seriously, I could imagine the woman may need considerable support & encouragement from the Labour Party.
I suspect its received by people who have had it on order from their newsagents for 30+ years.
I voted and campaigned for remain. I accept Brexit and want it to be implemented because that was the democratic decision. My first choice would be for a Norway style Brexit, but I would rather have a hard chaotic brexit than no Brexit at all, given the forces that would ultimately unleash and which I saw first hand whilst handing out patronising, shit 'stronger in' propoganda.
I'm not in any way happy about it, frankly I am devastated. How am I supposed to be happy about something that has had enormous personal consequences for me personally being married to an EU citizen, and is proving to be a national humiliation ?
The alternative was continuing in failure.
It seems to me that plod should be investigating as to whether charges of some sort should be brought.
The police should be investigating this forthwith.
Where an independent investigator would be useful is in encouraging others to come forward. If the same name and same MO keeps coming up from unrelated victims, as in the case of Bill Cosby, there’s a good chance that in at least one case there’s enough evidence to prosecute. The maximum sentence for rape is life imprisonment.
https://twitter.com/bexbailey/status/925726372730949632
Sovereignty will not keep us fed nor employed.
There is the alleged rape. And there is the alleged cover-up of the criminal activity.
There should be evidence in the Labour party records or among her friends in the Labour party that Bex Bailey made a complaint of rape.
(edited due to error with blockquotes)
And as to a compromise, then if you feel Brexit is going to be a disaster, work like a demon to mitigate that disaster - for your fellow citizens.
Or you can just leg it to a third country.
http://www.pressgazette.co.uk/comment-trinity-mirror-take-over-of-express-titles-has-been-welcomed-but-be-careful-what-you-wish-for/
NEW THREAD
I suggest we invite some politicians from Singapoore to take control.
It is highly usual for someone who is alleged to have carried out a rape to have their anonymity protected.
I have a different solution that does not require me to compromise.
Over the last 40 years Parliament has proven to have failed in its most sacred duty.
Once Sovereignty is secured then parliament can be left to go about its business, but it can't be trusted to take back what it gave away without authority from the voters