It's bewildering, really. The most serious allegation we've heard is that a member of Labour's NEC was raped and that the Labour Party's reaction was to get her to cover it up otherwise it would be bad for her. If true, that is a nasty form of blackmail and possible obstruction of justice, on top of a nasty and violent crime.
Labour seem to be pretending that this has nothing to do with them and that recent procedural changes mean that all is OK. Panglossian doesn't even begin to describe this level of delusion.
And now we find that it is a Cabinet Minister who has been making drunken advances to journalists (assuming there's nothing worse about to come out) who has to resign.
Bizarre.....
I did wonder whether Fallon quit to make the point that the Government is taking steps and Labour is just having another talking shop.
I don't think that it how it will be seen. Labour seems to be doing its level best to ignore the rape allegation. And, yet, to me anyway, that seems to me to be far worse. A political party puts pressure on the victim of a serious crime not to report it to save her career and their blushes. A party which wants to be in government, which is forever proclaiming its belief in womens' rights, unlike the nasty party opposite, which wants to be in charge of making the law behaves like that to a victim and has such a contemptuous attitude to the law...... well, I find it appalling.
If that were my daughter it happened to, I would be incandescent with fury.
Meanwhile everyone's obsessing about whose knees were touched .......
I agree that the current situation is topsy-turvy.
Labour should be being torn apart by the media, twitter, everyone - and there is precious little noise about their horrific actions. I don't care that it was under the previous leadership - the current shower have shown themselves to be even worse when it comes to tackling difficult internal issues.
His wikipedia page has already gotten confused - Secretary of State for Defence from July 1901 - November 1934 seems wrong.
Considering there was no 'Secretary of State for Defence' until 1964 that seems unlikely on a number of levels!
(There was a Minister of Defence and a Secretary of State for War. The two were combined, along with the Admiralty and Air Ministry, after Profumo.)
Sec of State for War : So much less mealy mouthed in those far off days!
That was one of the things Orwell was satirizing in Nineteen Eighty-Four: the next logical step after changing the armed forces' ministry from "War" -> "Defence" would be "Peace".
According to the Labour manifesto ( I swear I don't sit with it open all the time, but given Labour's stronger position thesedays its worth another read) they have:
...created a Minister for Peace and Disarmament to lead this work[conflict prevention and resolution, post conflict peacebuilding, and justice for the victims of war crimes]
So we're almost there.
I have a recollection that some country somewhere did have a Ministry of Peace or Ministry of Disarmament for a while in the 90s or 00s but Google and Wikipedia fail me.
I really don't give a toss who fucks who, who spanks who and where, who likes it up the Athens bypass with an aubergine. I also can't get exercised by some minister putting his hand on an adult womans knee, FFS. Sex has to begin somewhere.
Rape and child abuse are clearly different, but all I see so far is tedious tittle-tattle. Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock.
What is the story?
The story is that the government is weak. The media is after blood. And far too many politicians don't understand, not the line you state between legality and illegality, but the very wide grey area in between, which is behaving like a horny gentleman (or lady), and behaving like a twat. They are also terrified that the entirely consensual, non-vanilla, non-monogamous sex you describe simply will be exploited by our tabloids for circulation reasons.
"Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock."
I'm sorry, but for many in this country that is quite a shock, and remains unacceptable. I don't like that attitude, and neither do you. But I reckon that is still were we are.
That's definitely the case with the supposed one with a video of them engaging in watersports - not my bag, and I'd hope I would not unconsciously react to knowing that against them if I knew as its none of my concern, but they're probably right to hope no one finds out.
If it’s consensual then it’s up to the people involved, albeit embassasing for them if it comes out. It’s the more serious harassment, assault and cover-up allegations which need to be on the front pages.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
Labour should be being torn apart by the media, twitter, everyone - and there is precious little noise about their horrific actions. I don't care that it was under the previous leadership - the current shower have shown themselves to be even worse when it comes to tackling difficult internal issues.
@P_G_Thompson: Labour up in arms at Fallon touching Julia's knee fifteen years ago, about the same time John Prescott was shagging his diary secretary.
I really don't give a toss who fucks who, who spanks who and where, who likes it up the Athens bypass with an aubergine. I also can't get exercised by some minister putting his hand on an adult womans knee, FFS. Sex has to begin somewhere.
Rape and child abuse are clearly different, but all I see so far is tedious tittle-tattle. Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock.
What is the story?
The story is that the government is weak. The media is after blood. And far too many politicians don't understand, not the line you state between legality and illegality, but the very wide grey area in between, which is behaving like a horny gentleman (or lady), and behaving like a twat. They are also terrified that the entirely consensual, non-vanilla, non-monogamous sex you describe simply will be exploited by our tabloids for circulation reasons.
"Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock."
I'm sorry, but for many in this country that is quite a shock, and remains unacceptable. I don't like that attitude, and neither do you. But I reckon that is still were we are.
You think we are a nation of self-appointed traffic cops policing the Marmite Motorway? I think you are dead wrong, actually. Look at the George Osborne/Natalie Rowe allegations. No one gave a toss, and not because they found the story non-credible.
Fallon apologising, and others who have done similar apologising, seems reasonable. Others who have done more extreme things should be sacked or resign. But I don't think it an unwarranted fear that there may develop undue pressure to judge and sack people for less than optimal behaviour, or that the hunt for such may trivialize those who have suffered at the hands of those who have more extremely manifested, as you put it.
Not all transgressions are equal is something that I think is probably a good thing to keep in mind in these times.
There’s got to be more on Fallon, let’s see what tomorrow’s papers bring.
A resigning matter is harassment, a relationship with a power difference (intern, junior staffer) or an assault. A clumsy pass at a feisty middle-aged columnist who shrugged it off doesn’t meet that standard.
Other allegations published without naming names are more serious, and if those relate to Ministers they’re in trouble too. The alleged cover-up of a rape is the most serious we’ve seen so far,
Shadsy has a book up for next defence sec.
I am on Tobias Ellwood at 11.
Wasn't Rory Stewart angling for the ability to zap British jihadis the other day? Give him the tools to do the job.....
Given the current atmosphere I'm no longer sure that matters.
Not only was the secretary not a victim but she was more distressed at having her name put on this list for no good reason. So in being wrongly listed as a "victim" she is now having a second wrong done to her.
I really don't give a toss who fucks who, who spanks who and where, who likes it up the Athens bypass with an aubergine. I also can't get exercised by some minister putting his hand on an adult womans knee, FFS. Sex has to begin somewhere.
Rape and child abuse are clearly different, but all I see so far is tedious tittle-tattle. Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock.
What is the story?
The story is that the government is weak. The media is after blood. And far too many politicians don't understand, not the line you state between legality and illegality, but the very wide grey area in between, which is behaving like a horny gentleman (or lady), and behaving like a twat. They are also terrified that the entirely consensual, non-vanilla, non-monogamous sex you describe simply will be exploited by our tabloids for circulation reasons.
"Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock."
I'm sorry, but for many in this country that is quite a shock, and remains unacceptable. I don't like that attitude, and neither do you. But I reckon that is still were we are.
That's definitely the case with the supposed one with a video of them engaging in watersports - not my bag, and I'd hope I would not unconsciously react to knowing that against them if I knew as its none of my concern, but they're probably right to hope no one finds out.
Yep. Been away, so missed most of this. However, plenty of people DO like watersports. It is allowed. Plenty more would fail to understand it, and many of them would believe it ought to be a bar to serving as an MP. I reckon being an unpleasant and borderline threatening git around women should be more of a bar, but am probably (sadly) in the minority.
I really don't give a toss who fucks who, who spanks who and where, who likes it up the Athens bypass with an aubergine. I also can't get exercised by some minister putting his hand on an adult womans knee, FFS. Sex has to begin somewhere.
Rape and child abuse are clearly different, but all I see so far is tedious tittle-tattle. Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock.
What is the story?
The story is that the government is weak. The media is after blood. And far too many politicians don't understand, not the line you state between legality and illegality, but the very wide grey area in between, which is behaving like a horny gentleman (or lady), and behaving like a twat. They are also terrified that the entirely consensual, non-vanilla, non-monogamous sex you describe simply will be exploited by our tabloids for circulation reasons.
"Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock."
I'm sorry, but for many in this country that is quite a shock, and remains unacceptable. I don't like that attitude, and neither do you. But I reckon that is still were we are.
That's definitely the case with the supposed one with a video of them engaging in watersports - not my bag, and I'd hope I would not unconsciously react to knowing that against them if I knew as its none of my concern, but they're probably right to hope no one finds out.
If it’s consensual then it’s up to the people involved, albeit embassasing for them if it comes out. It’s the more serious harassment, assault and cover-up allegations which need to be on the front pages.
Oh I agree entirely - but I think we know 'I was person peed on in video and yes it turned me on' is a headline no one wants to see about themselves. It's none of our business if that is the case, it's not illegal, but no one wants the embarrassment even though such a thing really should not matter.
I really don't give a toss who fucks who, who spanks who and where, who likes it up the Athens bypass with an aubergine. I also can't get exercised by some minister putting his hand on an adult womans knee, FFS. Sex has to begin somewhere.
Rape and child abuse are clearly different, but all I see so far is tedious tittle-tattle. Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock.
What is the story?
The story is that the government is weak. The media is after blood. And far too many politicians don't understand, not the line you state between legality and illegality, but the very wide grey area in between, which is behaving like a horny gentleman (or lady), and behaving like a twat. They are also terrified that the entirely consensual, non-vanilla, non-monogamous sex you describe simply will be exploited by our tabloids for circulation reasons.
"Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock."
I'm sorry, but for many in this country that is quite a shock, and remains unacceptable. I don't like that attitude, and neither do you. But I reckon that is still were we are.
That's definitely the case with the supposed one with a video of them engaging in watersports - not my bag, and I'd hope I would not unconsciously react to knowing that against them if I knew as its none of my concern, but they're probably right to hope no one finds out.
If it’s consensual then it’s up to the people involved, albeit embassasing for them if it comes out. It’s the more serious harassment, assault and cover-up allegations which need to be on the front pages.
Too right - no-one should care if MPs or anyone else has a particular fetish - as long as it is enjoyed in a consensual and legal way.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
It's bewildering, really. The most serious allegation we've heard is that a member of Labour's NEC was raped and that the Labour Party's reaction was to get her to cover it up otherwise it would be bad for her. If true, that is a nasty form of blackmail and possible obstruction of justice, on top of a nasty and violent crime.
Labour seem to be pretending that this has nothing to do with them and that recent procedural changes mean that all is OK. Panglossian doesn't even begin to describe this level of delusion.
And now we find that it is a Cabinet Minister who has been making drunken advances to journalists (assuming there's nothing worse about to come out) who has to resign.
Bizarre.....
I did wonder whether Fallon quit to make the point that the Government is taking steps and Labour is just having another talking shop.
I don't think that it how it will be seen. Labour seems to be doing its level best to ignore the rape allegation. And, yet, to me anyway, that seems to me to be far worse. A political party puts pressure on the victim of a serious crime not to report it to save her career and their blushes. A party which wants to be in government, which is forever proclaiming its belief in womens' rights, unlike the nasty party opposite, which wants to be in charge of making the law behaves like that to a victim and has such a contemptuous attitude to the law...... well, I find it appalling.
If that were my daughter it happened to, I would be incandescent with fury.
Meanwhile everyone's obsessing about whose knees were touched .......
I agree that the current situation is topsy-turvy.
Labour should be being torn apart by the media, twitter, everyone - and there is precious little noise about their horrific actions. I don't care that it was under the previous leadership - the current shower have shown themselves to be even worse when it comes to tackling difficult internal issues.
We have no idea who the alleged rapist was nor whether he continues to play a role in the party. Nor do we know who it was who tried to cover the matter up and what role, if any, they are currently playing in the party. Lots of Labour women have come out to criticise the behaviour of their party re misogyny but it is largely being ignored. It just feels - and I hope I am wrong about this - that they are seeking to bury the story again or hope that it goes away with all the focus being on randy Cabinet politicians.
Commentators are picking up on the tone and content of May's response to Fallon. It sounds like it's definitively the end for him. No way back. Which suggests it's serious.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
@nickeardleybbc: Fallon to @bbclaurak: The culture has changed over the years. What might have been acceptable 15,10 years ago is clearly not acceptable now
Commentators are picking up on the tone and content of May's response to Fallon. It sounds like it's definitively the end for him. No way back. Which suggests it's serious.
Commentators will do what commentators do. Which is why we don't need them. Speculation is not journalism
I really don't give a toss who fucks who, who spanks who and where, who likes it up the Athens bypass with an aubergine. I also can't get exercised by some minister putting his hand on an adult womans knee, FFS. Sex has to begin somewhere.
Rape and child abuse are clearly different, but all I see so far is tedious tittle-tattle. Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock.
What is the story?
The story is that the government is weak. The media is after blood. And far too many politicians don't understand, not the line you state between legality and illegality, but the very wide grey area in between, which is behaving like a horny gentleman (or lady), and behaving like a twat. They are also terrified that the entirely consensual, non-vanilla, non-monogamous sex you describe simply will be exploited by our tabloids for circulation reasons.
"Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock."
I'm sorry, but for many in this country that is quite a shock, and remains unacceptable. I don't like that attitude, and neither do you. But I reckon that is still were we are.
That's definitely the case with the supposed one with a video of them engaging in watersports - not my bag, and I'd hope I would not unconsciously react to knowing that against them if I knew as its none of my concern, but they're probably right to hope no one finds out.
If it’s consensual then it’s up to the people involved, albeit embassasing for them if it comes out. It’s the more serious harassment, assault and cover-up allegations which need to be on the front pages.
Oh I agree entirely - but I think we know 'I was person peed on in video and yes it turned me on' is a headline no one wants to see about themselves. It's none of our business if that is the case, it's not illegal, but no one wants the embarrassment even though such a thing really should not matter.
People still remember Mark Oaten. And people with longer memories still remember the tragic tale of Stephen Milligan.
Commentators are picking up on the tone and content of May's response to Fallon. It sounds like it's definitively the end for him. No way back. Which suggests it's serious.
We really need to know, otherwise the very overreaction to the earlier revelations will undermine things, as everyone is assuming something worse must exist even in the absence of any accusation even, and there should not be a situation where people assume accusations are automatically true, let alone that resigning off the back of something relatively minor must be cover for something worse.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
"This, a friend explained, is "the kind of girl you go to if you need some pretty young things to join you on a night out". These fun-loving twenty-somethings, the friend added, are well-educated, attractive, flirtatious and comfortable in the company of older, rich and powerful men. "
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
It's bewildering, really. The most serious allegation we've heard is that a member of Labour's NEC was raped and that the Labour Party's reaction was to get her to cover it up otherwise it would be bad for her. If true, that is a nasty form of blackmail and possible obstruction of justice, on top of a nasty and violent crime.
Labour seem to be pretending that this has nothing to do with them and that recent procedural changes mean that all is OK. Panglossian doesn't even begin to describe this level of delusion.
And now we find that it is a Cabinet Minister who has been making drunken advances to journalists (assuming there's nothing worse about to come out) who has to resign.
Bizarre.....
I did wonder whether Fallon quit to make the point that the Government is taking steps and Labour is just having another talking shop.
I don't think that it how it will be seen. Labour seems to be doing its level best to ignore the rape allegation. And, yet, to me anyway, that seems to me to be far worse. A political party puts pressure on the victim of a serious crime not to report it to save her career and their blushes. A party which wants to be in government, which is forever proclaiming its belief in womens' rights, unlike the nasty party opposite, which wants to be in charge of making the law behaves like that to a victim and has such a contemptuous attitude to the law...... well, I find it appalling.
If that were my daughter it happened to, I would be incandescent with fury.
Meanwhile everyone's obsessing about whose knees were touched .......
I agree that the current situation is topsy-turvy.
Labour should be being torn apart by the media, twitter, everyone - and there is precious little noise about their horrific actions. I don't care that it was under the previous leadership - the current shower have shown themselves to be even worse when it comes to tackling difficult internal issues.
We have no idea who the alleged rapist was nor whether he continues to play a role in the party. Nor do we know who it was who tried to cover the matter up and what role, if any, they are currently playing in the party. Lots of Labour women have come out to criticise the behaviour of their party re misogyny but it is largely being ignored. It just feels - and I hope I am wrong about this - that they are seeking to bury the story again or hope that it goes away with all the focus being on randy Cabinet politicians.
I would be careful of making this party political. Because from what various people have been saying, harrassment doesn't restrict itself to particular political beliefs. Nor is it unique to politics.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
"This, a friend explained, is "the kind of girl you go to if you need some pretty young things to join you on a night out". These fun-loving twenty-somethings, the friend added, are well-educated, attractive, flirtatious and comfortable in the company of older, rich and powerful men. "
Yep.
Though the story itself is based on consensual behaviour, so not a resigning matter. But it does touch on those power imbalances combined with the view of women as objects which can lead to a culture where individuals think they can get away with harassment and assault.
@nickeardleybbc: Fallon to @bbclaurak: The culture has changed over the years. What might have been acceptable 15,10 years ago is clearly not acceptable now
That sounds like it's something similar to the JHB incident but a lot more recent.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
There's that obsession with the privately educated again, it so fascinates the Mail.
And it is totally unacceptable that grown adults enjoyed themselves in a legal and consensual way. What were they thinking? How dare they???
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
Huge over-round on that market. 12 players at 12s or lower.
Although by the same token, once you exclude some who are obviously under-priced, there might be value in what's left.
Edit - what's remarkable about that list is how few cabinet ministers there are. Defence Secretary is definitely in the top half of the cabinet jobs. I can understand why May might not want a broad reshuffle and that would point to a direct appointment from outside the cabinet (Mark Lancaster is one of those at 12/1 who is value) but all the same, a promotion for a more junior cabinet minister has to be an option too.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
There's that obsession with the privately educated again, it so fascinates the Mail.
And it is totally unacceptable that grown adults enjoyed themselves in a legal and consensual way. What were they thinking? How dare they???
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
You really are talking rubbish and attempting to make this political.
This is a serious problem for all parties, not least the alleged rape charge labour are facing
Huge over-round on that market. 12 players at 12s or lower.
Although by the same token, once you exclude some who are obviously under-priced, there might be value in what's left.
Well maybe the chances of replacing someone who resigned for not keeping his hands to himself, with Boris Johnson, is not accurately reflected in the odds of the current foreign secretary for the vacant post?
It is ridiculous if Fallon has resigned just because of the trivial JHB incident. Just by doing so he has given the dossier allegations unwelcome momentum. It is difficult to see why he thinks salving his personal conscience is worth the disruption caused to the defence ministry let alone to the government. And it's not even as if our armed forces personnel are exactly paragons of virtue themselves.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
There's that obsession with the privately educated again, it so fascinates the Mail.
And it is totally unacceptable that grown adults enjoyed themselves in a legal and consensual way. What were they thinking? How dare they???
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
The difference is there was no relationship and everything which happened was consensual.
It is ridiculous if Fallon has resigned just because of the trivial JHB incident. Just by doing so he has given the dossier allegations unwelcome momentum. It is difficult to see why he thinks salving his personal conscience is worth the disruption caused to the defence ministry let alone to the government. And it's not even as if our armed forces personnel are exactly paragons of virtue themselves.
Huge over-round on that market. 12 players at 12s or lower.
Although by the same token, once you exclude some who are obviously under-priced, there might be value in what's left.
Well maybe the chances of replacing someone who resigned for not keeping his hands to himself, with Boris Johnson, is not accurately reflected in the odds of the current foreign secretary for the vacant post?
He would be one of those who I think are under-priced. In his case, by a long way.
We don’t really know what the public are thinking at the moment, but a large number of people thinking something doesn’t neccessarily make it right.
Also I don’t think that JFK example works as a simply ‘politicians love sex’ example. It has much, much more darker over tones of exploitation and its behaviours like that which are the reason why it’s so important to have the conversation about sexual harrasment, sexual assault, rape and objectification that’s going on.
Also, if you can’t flirt with someone without touching their knee, well, you must be rubbish at flirting.
Questioning some of these things that people consider ‘social norms’ is a good thing, and we should always review what we consider to be ‘norms’. There are many things that today are considered unacceptable, that were not in the past.
It feels like for some it’s not the act of being sexist/misogynistic that is bad, but merely extreme manifestations of sexism and misogyny are bad.
Fallon apologising, and others who have done similar apologising, seems reasonable. Others who have done more extreme things should be sacked or resign. But I don't think it an unwarranted fear that there may develop undue pressure to judge and sack people for less than optimal behaviour, or that the hunt for such may trivialize those who have suffered at the hands of those who have more extremely manifested, as you put it.
Not all transgressions are equal is something that I think is probably a good thing to keep in mind in these times.
There’s got to be more on Fallon, let’s see what tomorrow’s papers bring.
A resigning matter is harassment, a relationship with a power difference (intern, junior staffer) or an assault. A clumsy pass at a feisty middle-aged columnist who shrugged it off doesn’t meet that standard.
Other allegations published without naming names are more serious, and if those relate to Ministers they’re in trouble too. The alleged cover-up of a rape is the most serious we’ve seen so far,
Shadsy has a book up for next defence sec.
I am on Tobias Ellwood at 11.
Tobias Ellwood would be an excellent choice, straight laced as they come his brother was killed in the Bali bombings and he was one of the first on the scene at the Westminster shootings and he is already a Minister for Veterans.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
There's that obsession with the privately educated again, it so fascinates the Mail.
And it is totally unacceptable that grown adults enjoyed themselves in a legal and consensual way. What were they thinking? How dare they???
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
You really are talking rubbish and attempting to make this political.
This is a serious problem for all parties, not least the alleged rape charge labour are facing
I cannot help it if Theresa May made an epic miscalculation like the Back to Basics one that John Major made in the 1990's. The PM clearly advocated a position in which individuals who behave in ways that can be perceived to be unacceptable by her words when exploiting power and status in the past or present should resign. For the record I voted Tory in 2017 despite my misgivings, however, I think political parties have a massive problem in the way politicians, party officials and other representatives behave and the Tories are in power and should show consistency on this. DD should resign.
I really don't give a toss who fucks who, who spanks who and where, who likes it up the Athens bypass with an aubergine. I also can't get exercised by some minister putting his hand on an adult womans knee, FFS. Sex has to begin somewhere.
Rape and child abuse are clearly different, but all I see so far is tedious tittle-tattle. Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock.
What is the story?
The story is that the government is weak. The media is after blood. And far too many politicians don't understand, not the line you state between legality and illegality, but the very wide grey area in between, which is behaving like a horny gentleman (or lady), and behaving like a twat. They are also terrified that the entirely consensual, non-vanilla, non-monogamous sex you describe simply will be exploited by our tabloids for circulation reasons.
"Politicians like sex, shock, politicians like kinky sex, shock, some are even gay, shock."
I'm sorry, but for many in this country that is quite a shock, and remains unacceptable. I don't like that attitude, and neither do you. But I reckon that is still were we are.
You think we are a nation of self-appointed traffic cops policing the Marmite Motorway? I think you are dead wrong, actually. Look at the George Osborne/Natalie Rowe allegations. No one gave a toss, and not because they found the story non-credible.
I would hope you are right and I am wrong. However, whilst the majority would (at last) accept an MP in a gay relationship, would they accept one found in a sauna, or at a fetish orgy? I fear not. It would sadly be front page news. And many would blame the individual, not the rag publicising it.
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
I'm not sure Parliament is the only place where old men flirt with younger women.
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
There's that obsession with the privately educated again, it so fascinates the Mail.
And it is totally unacceptable that grown adults enjoyed themselves in a legal and consensual way. What were they thinking? How dare they???
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over tble.
You really are talking rubbish and attempting to make this political.
This is a serious problem for all parties, not least the alleged rape charge labour are facing
I cannot help it if Theresa May made an epic miscalculation like the Back to Basics one that John Major made in the 1990's. The PM clearly advocated a position in which individuals who behave in ways that can be perceived to be unacceptable by her words when exploiting power and status in the past or present should resign. For the record I voted Tory in 2017 despite my misgivings, however, I think political parties have a massive problem in the way politicians, party officials and other representatives behave and the Tories are in power and should show consistency on this. DD should resign.
Either his behaviour was inappropriate or it wasn't, what May set as the line is not so significant, particularly when words can be interpreted quite widely. Holding to an arbitrary standard where something that is not really inappropriate is resignation worthy to the point of absurdity would be a miscalculation. Yeah if May had to pull back on her words a little that'd be embarrassing, but not as embarrassing as if she forced the resignation of people who clearly had done nothing wrong (or something very trivial for which a contrite apology and lessons learned would be sufficient).
The Brexit Secretary should be the next to resign:
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm. Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
There's that obsession with the privately educated again, it so fascinates the Mail.
And it is totally unacceptable that grown adults enjoyed themselves in a legal and consensual way. What were they thinking? How dare they???
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
You really are talking rubbish and attempting to make this political.
This is a serious problem for all parties, not least the alleged rape charge labour are facing
I cannot help it if Theresa May made an epic miscalculation like the Back to Basics one that John Major made in the 1990's. The PM clearly advocated a position in which individuals who behave in ways that can be perceived to be unacceptable by her words when exploiting power and status in the past or present should resign. For the record I voted Tory in 2017 despite my misgivings, however, I think political parties have a massive problem in the way politicians, party officials and other representatives behave and the Tories are in power and should show consistency on this. DD should resign.
What utter rubbish. DD should resign for attending a party 12 years ago which happened to be attended by some young women and which he ultimately left alone? DD is not on the spreadsheet list either.
We don’t really know what the public are thinking at the moment, but a large number of people thinking something doesn’t neccessarily make it right.
Also I don’t think that JFK example works as a simply ‘politicians love sex’ example. It has much, much more darker over tones of exploitation and its behaviours like that which are the reason why it’s so important to have the conversation about sexual harrasment, sexual assault, rape and objectification that’s going on.
Also, if you can’t flirt with someone without touching their knee, well, you must be rubbish at flirting.
Questioning some of these things that people consider ‘social norms’ is a good thing, and we should always review what we consider to be ‘norms’. There are many things that today are considered unacceptable, that were not in the past.
It feels like for some it’s not the act of being sexist/misogynistic that is bad, but merely extreme manifestations of sexism and misogyny are bad.
Fallon apologising, and others who have done similar apologising, seems reasonable. Others who have done more extreme things should be sacked or resign. But I don't think it an unwarranted fear that there may develop undue pressure to judge and sack people for less than optimal behaviour, or that the hunt for such may trivialize those who have suffered at the hands of those who have more extremely manifested, as you put it.
Not all transgressions are equal is something that I think is probably a good thing to keep in mind in these times.
There’s got to be more on Fallon, let’s see what tomorrow’s papers bring.
A resigning matter is harassment, a relationship with a power difference (intern, junior staffer) or an assault. A clumsy pass at a feisty middle-aged columnist who shrugged it off doesn’t meet that standard.
Other allegations published without naming names are more serious, and if those relate to Ministers they’re in trouble too. The alleged cover-up of a rape is the most serious we’ve seen so far,
Shadsy has a book up for next defence sec.
I am on Tobias Ellwood at 11.
Tobias Ellwood would be an excellent choice, straight laced as they come his brother was killed in the Bali bombings and he was one of the first on the scene at the Westminster shootings and he is already a Minister for Veterans.
His wikipedia page has already gotten confused - Secretary of State for Defence from July 1901 - November 1934 seems wrong.
Considering there was no 'Secretary of State for Defence' until 1964 that seems unlikely on a number of levels!
(There was a Minister of Defence and a Secretary of State for War. The two were combined, along with the Admiralty and Air Ministry, after Profumo.)
Sec of State for War : So much less mealy mouthed in those far off days!
That was one of the things Orwell was satirizing in Nineteen Eighty-Four: the next logical step after changing the armed forces' ministry from "War" -> "Defence" would be "Peace".
According to the Labour manifesto ( I swear I don't sit with it open all the time, but given Labour's stronger position thesedays its worth another read) they have:
...created a Minister for Peace and Disarmament to lead this work[conflict prevention and resolution, post conflict peacebuilding, and justice for the victims of war crimes]
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
I'm not sure Parliament is the only place where old men flirt with younger women.
Flirtation is in any case a standard aspect of human communication, mere flirtation cannot be a reasonable barrier for inappropriateness. Even age inappropriate flirtation in itself would not be actually inappropriate as such (it would be rare, but such matches happen sometimes, or merely two individuals might be happy for something to happen casually), it is a situation of unwanted attention, contact, the existence of a power imbalance and implicit reaction if advances are not welcomed, that sort of thing which is troublesome (and in some cases more than troubling).
Has something happened tonight? Just finished watching The Death Of Stalin.
What did you think of that? It was bleak, with some comic moments. Thought Simon Russel Beale's Beria helped carry the film. Was surprised to read that some critics claimed it was too serious a topic for a comedy.
His wikipedia page has already gotten confused - Secretary of State for Defence from July 1901 - November 1934 seems wrong.
Considering there was no 'Secretary of State for Defence' until 1964 that seems unlikely on a number of levels!
(There was a Minister of Defence and a Secretary of State for War. The two were combined, along with the Admiralty and Air Ministry, after Profumo.)
Sec of State for War : So much less mealy mouthed in those far off days!
That was one of the things Orwell was satirizing in Nineteen Eighty-Four: the next logical step after changing the armed forces' ministry from "War" -> "Defence" would be "Peace".
According to the Labour manifesto ( I swear I don't sit with it open all the time, but given Labour's stronger position thesedays its worth another read) they have:
...created a Minister for Peace and Disarmament to lead this work[conflict prevention and resolution, post conflict peacebuilding, and justice for the victims of war crimes]
Unless Brexit goes reasonably, which is still possible even though it seems morelikely to be tough, the end result might not be too different. But what would be 12 years in power is not a bad run, even if a landslide loss at the end is hardly desirable.
Unless Brexit goes reasonably, which is still possible even though it seems morelikely to be tough, the end result might not be too different. But what would be 12 years in power is not a bad run, even if a landslide loss at the end is hardly desirable.
It will be nowhere near 1997. 1997 came after 18 years of Tory government and against a centrist charismatic leader. 2022 will be after 12 years in power and the Tories won in 1992 after 13 years in power against a populist leftwinger like Corbyn.
Even if Corbyn does win it is far more likely to be February or October 1974 and a Labour minority government or tiny majority than a Labour landslide, indeed not 1 current poll even gives a Labour majority let alone a landslide win.
We don’t really know what the public are thinking at the moment, but a large number of people thinking something doesn’t neccessarily make it right.
Also I don’t think that JFK example works as a simply ‘politicians love sex’ example. It has much, much more darker over tones of exploitation and its behaviours like that which are the reason why it’s so important to have the conversation about sexual harrasment, sexual assault, rape and objectification that’s going on.
Also, if you can’t flirt with someone without touching their knee, well, you must be rubbish at flirting.
Questioning some of these things that people consider ‘social norms’ is a good thing, and we should always review what we consider to be ‘norms’. There are many things that today are considered unacceptable, that were not in the past.
It feels like for some it’s not the act of being sexist/misogynistic that is bad, but merely extreme manifestations of sexism and misogyny are bad.
Fallon apologising, and others who have done similar apologising, seems reasonable. Others who have done more extreme things should be sacked or resign. But I don't think it an unwarranted fear that there may develop undue pressure to judge and sack people for less than optimal behaviour, or that the hunt for such may trivialize those who have suffered at the hands of those who have more extremely manifested, as you put it.
Not all transgressions are equal is something that I think is probably a good thing to keep in mind in these times.
There’s got to be more on Fallon, let’s see what tomorrow’s papers bring.
A resigning matter is harassment, a relationship with a power difference (intern, junior staffer) or an assault. A clumsy pass at a feisty middle-aged columnist who shrugged it off doesn’t meet that standard.
Other allegations published without naming names are more serious, and if those relate to Ministers they’re in trouble too. The alleged cover-up of a rape is the most serious we’ve seen so far,
Shadsy has a book up for next defence sec.
I am on Tobias Ellwood at 11.
Tobias Ellwood would be an excellent choice, straight laced as they come his brother was killed in the Bali bombings and he was one of the first on the scene at the Westminster shootings and he is already a Minister for Veterans.
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
I'm not sure Parliament is the only place where old men flirt with younger women.
It is all about the power and status of politicians, if you want to get on in politics does anyone really think that not being co-operative will get the aspirant individual what they want? In the DD case if he was not the politician and household name he was then would someone you had just met interact in this way? Sure older men flirt with younger women but if you did what Davis did at an office Christmas party you might find you get called into HR.
On a broader measure political parties allow MPs, party officials and Cllrs to behave in ways completely unacceptable to other career paths. The difference being victims in politics cannot speak out for fear of killing any potential political career. Young and impressionable people are completely expendable and the higher echelons of political parties locally and nationally use this against the powerless.
Unless Brexit goes reasonably, which is still possible even though it seems morelikely to be tough, the end result might not be too different. But what would be 12 years in power is not a bad run, even if a landslide loss at the end is hardly desirable.
Did pro-Brexit Tories feel they were in power from 2010-16?
Maribor is quite nice but very small. I had a (very good) meal in a restaurant there with possibly the maddest chef I have ever seen. He was barking instructions at us how to eat the food. We were terrified in case we ate something out of turn.
Theresa May said the other day that anyone who used power or influence currently or in the past over those with little or no power would have to resign. DD back in 2005, I suspect it could be argued was behaving inappropriately for he was a 50 something married man and she was a twentysomething. IF he was not an MP and a household name would this sort of behaviour be likely to occur? DD fails the Theresa May test she created just a few days ago, personally I could not care less about it but all politicians should be judged on their behaviour and the current leader went out of her way to instigate the parameters of what is acceptable or not acceptable.
I'm not sure Parliament is the only place where old men flirt with younger women.
It is all about the power and status of politicians, if you want to get on in politics does anyone really think that not being co-operative will get the aspirant individual what they want? In the DD case if he was not the politician and household name he was then would someone you had just met interact in this way? Sure older men flirt with younger women but if you did what Davis did at an office Christmas party you might find you get called into HR.
On a broader measure political parties allow MPs, party officials and Cllrs to behave in ways completely unacceptable to other career paths. The difference being victims in politics cannot speak out for fear of killing any potential political career. Young and impressionable people are completely expendable and the higher echelons of political parties locally and nationally use this against the powerless.
There are no victims here. No-one is claiming any harm has been done. There is no evidence of undue pressure of influence. No-one has done anything wrong.
You are trying to force things to suit your narrative - and it isn't working.
Unless Brexit goes reasonably, which is still possible even though it seems morelikely to be tough, the end result might not be too different. But what would be 12 years in power is not a bad run, even if a landslide loss at the end is hardly desirable.
Did pro-Brexit Tories feel they were in power from 2010-16?
Some of them sure didn't, but who cares? Brexit is the most important thing now, but it is not the only thing.
I would be careful of making this party political. Because from what various people have been saying, harrassment doesn't restrict itself to particular political beliefs. Nor is it unique to politics.
I think that's right. FWIW, Labour has urged the police to investigate and instituted its own investigation by an independent non-party member into the official alleged to have urged a cover-up. Not sure what else they can reasonably do at this stage: it certainly doesn't feel like an attempt to bury it, since both investigations will lead to a result. But I'm also not claiming that Labour is better - in any party you get a few people who behave atrociously plus a good many more who behave dubiously. All you can really do is jump on it when it happens.
Has something happened tonight? Just finished watching The Death Of Stalin.
What did you think of that? It was bleak, with some comic moments. Thought Simon Russel Beale's Beria helped carry the film. Was surprised to read that some critics claimed it was too serious a topic for a comedy.
It is rather disturbing, even for a black comedy, because of the underlying facts.
All the major characters were well played, Beria in particular though Zhukov too.
Comments
Labour should be being torn apart by the media, twitter, everyone - and there is precious little noise about their horrific actions. I don't care that it was under the previous leadership - the current shower have shown themselves to be even worse when it comes to tackling difficult internal issues.
On Fallon, clear that this has to be about more than lunging at Ms Hartley-Brewer's knee.
"By then, he had struck up a rapport with Caroline, with whom he later tripped out of the restaurant arm-in-arm.
Along with Mr Neil and two of privately-educated Caroline's blonde friends, the pair appeared happy to be snapped by photographers. Laughing uproariously, they squeezed into Mr Neil's waiting car - Caroline initially on Mr Davis's knee - and headed to Annabel's nightclub where they danced into the early hours."
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-372005/Unmasked-The-girl-partied-David-Davis.html#ixzz4xDUN6eEt
I reckon being an unpleasant and borderline threatening git around women should be more of a bar, but am probably (sadly) in the minority.
"This, a friend explained, is "the kind of girl you go to if you need some pretty young things to join you on a night out".
These fun-loving twenty-somethings, the friend added, are well-educated, attractive, flirtatious and comfortable in the company of older, rich and powerful men. "
https://mobile.twitter.com/DonaldJTrumpJr/status/925495970032443392
Though the story itself is based on consensual behaviour, so not a resigning matter. But it does touch on those power imbalances combined with the view of women as objects which can lead to a culture where individuals think they can get away with harassment and assault.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/11/01/britain-could-see-first-female-defence-secretary-history-following/
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2706948/New-defence-secretary-Michael-Fallon-accused-calling-female-author-slut-drunken-bar-clash.html
Not how a decent chap should ever carry on. We were warned.
Edit - what's remarkable about that list is how few cabinet ministers there are. Defence Secretary is definitely in the top half of the cabinet jobs. I can understand why May might not want a broad reshuffle and that would point to a direct appointment from outside the cabinet (Mark Lancaster is one of those at 12/1 who is value) but all the same, a promotion for a more junior cabinet minister has to be an option too.
Hindu is the religion
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindi
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hindu
This is a serious problem for all parties, not least the alleged rape charge labour are facing
https://twitter.com/adamboultonSKY/status/925838201868161024
However, whilst the majority would (at last) accept an MP in a gay relationship, would they accept one found in a sauna, or at a fetish orgy? I fear not.
It would sadly be front page news. And many would blame the individual, not the rag publicising it.
The result of the night for English sides.
Have I shifted Shadsys market with a PB tip?
Tommorow the world!
https://twitter.com/OllieHolt22/status/96300318077362176
Even if Corbyn does win it is far more likely to be February or October 1974 and a Labour minority government or tiny majority than a Labour landslide, indeed not 1 current poll even gives a Labour majority let alone a landslide win.
On a broader measure political parties allow MPs, party officials and Cllrs to behave in ways completely unacceptable to other career paths. The difference being victims in politics cannot speak out for fear of killing any potential political career. Young and impressionable people are completely expendable and the higher echelons of political parties locally and nationally use this against the powerless.
You are trying to force things to suit your narrative - and it isn't working.
Tobias Ellwood: ‘We must teach jihadists to think, not kill them’
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tobias-ellwood-we-must-teach-jihadists-to-think-not-kill-them-f63dwg025
Fear I've just bought Shadsy a christmas round though !
All the major characters were well played, Beria in particular though Zhukov too.
Along with the Astros closing out the world series ^^;;;
Which means it'll be the Dodgers and IDS.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=hvLcYUXBBuc