Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Mikey Garcia is a lot more nimble than Anthony Joshua but I know who I'd back if the two met in the ring.
Polling on a 2nd referendum needs to be taken with a certain degree of salt.
Quite - no referendum is imminent right now and Trump, Corbyn, 'leave', 'No' were all miles behind when the various plebicites were a way off. We don't know if leave or remain would win a second referendum, but the polling at this point is as good as tea leaves.
Like all voting intention polls. Leader ratings are different.
No they're not, not at this stage which was Pulpstar and Casino_Royale's point.
Leader Ratings earlier this year were pointing towards a virtually unprecedentedly large gulf between May and Corbyn. How did that turn out in the end?
Nothing is set in stone until the votes have already been cast. Public opinion can change quickly on anything, including leader ratings - May and Corbyn are proof of that.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Nimble? What does that actually mean? What is the EU doing that stops us being nimble now?
I am sitting in the cafe of a garden centre. There are a couple of Italian mothers with babies here. They have justly briefly discussed Brexit ie the latest news or non-news about the talks. What they said was not particularly interesting. What was interesting - to me anyway - was that it is literally the first time I have heard anyone discuss Brexit at all (outside of PB, where we seem to talk of little else these days).
Damp days like this are great for gardening, BTW, because the earth is soft (and warm) so it is easy to plant bulbs and move plants.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Mikey Garcia is a lot more nimble than Anthony Joshua but I know who I'd back if the two met in the ring.
So Leave the ring then. Don't Remain in the ring taking a pummeling.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Nimble? What does that actually mean? What is the EU doing that stops us being nimble now?
Failing to sign trade agreements on our behalf while preventing us from signing our own.
Please name a single non-European economy larger than our own that we have a free trade agreement with.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Mikey Garcia is a lot more nimble than Anthony Joshua but I know who I'd back if the two met in the ring.
So Leave the ring then. Don't Remain in the ring taking a pummeling.
You mean just trade with ourselves? OK well I suppose it's one way forward but even North Korea has external trade agreements.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Nimble? What does that actually mean? What is the EU doing that stops us being nimble now?
Failing to sign trade agreements on our behalf while preventing us from signing our own.
Please name a single non-European economy larger than our own that we have a free trade agreement with.
There are only 3 countries larger: that'll be USA, China and Japan.
I am sitting in the cafe of a garden centre. There are a couple of Italian mothers with babies here. They have justly briefly discussed Brexit ie the latest news or non-news about the talks. What they said was not particularly interesting. What was interesting - to me anyway - was that it is literally the first time I have heard anyone discuss Brexit at all (outside of PB, where we seem to talk of little else these days).
Damp days like this are great for gardening, BTW, because the earth is soft (and warm) so it is easy to plant bulbs and move plants.
Enjoy your gardening
I find gardening centres peculiar places - all those strange plants and liquids and implements. I think the coffee shop is my favourite part
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
I am sitting in the cafe of a garden centre. There are a couple of Italian mothers with babies here. They have justly briefly discussed Brexit ie the latest news or non-news about the talks. What they said was not particularly interesting. What was interesting - to me anyway - was that it is literally the first time I have heard anyone discuss Brexit at all (outside of PB, where we seem to talk of little else these days).
Damp days like this are great for gardening, BTW, because the earth is soft (and warm) so it is easy to plant bulbs and move plants.
Enjoy your gardening
I find gardening centres peculiar places - all those strange plants and liquids and implements. I think the coffee shop is my favourite part
Saturday? Its almost as if Rajoy wants to provoke an intemperate and illegal response isn't it?
It's the process that starts on Saturday. It has to go tot he Senate and be approved there, which will take a little while. However, you can bet your bottom dollar that the PP and the Spanish state's institutions will contrive to create more positive publicity for the separatists.
On a related note, the profile of those who support independence for Catalonia is fascinating. The best predictors are wealth and purity of Catalan blood.
So does Puigdemont have the Catalan Parliament declare independence today or tomorrow? A difficult call for him, not least because he faces being arrested, but a huge loss of face if he doesn't.
He needs to do it right now. He'll probably never get another chance.
Not sure what Tories think south of the border but personally the SNP losing another 20 seats, even to Labour, would be catnip. Its a question of priorities.
Yes everyone in England goes on about May's 'disastrous' GE - it wasn't all bad......
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Mikey Garcia is a lot more nimble than Anthony Joshua but I know who I'd back if the two met in the ring.
So Leave the ring then. Don't Remain in the ring taking a pummeling.
You mean just trade with ourselves? OK well I suppose it's one way forward but even North Korea has external trade agreements.
No I mean trade freely but leave the confines of the EU which is the ring. Free from the burden of the EU we can trade with anyone we want and will be capable of replicating the success of other non-EU nations.
I can't see the NZ coalition government as being at all coherent. It's interesting that Labour should see reducing immigration as a price worth paying to get into office.
It feels a bit like an Yvette Cooper or a Heidi Alexander getting into bed with Nigel Farage (or whoever the new guy is.. I forget) to form an administration.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Mikey Garcia is a lot more nimble than Anthony Joshua but I know who I'd back if the two met in the ring.
So Leave the ring then. Don't Remain in the ring taking a pummeling.
You mean just trade with ourselves? OK well I suppose it's one way forward but even North Korea has external trade agreements.
Most UK trade is internal but it is still currently subject to EU regulation. Once we exit internal trade will be subject to the UK regulation. UK regulation may be the same or similar to EU reguklation but it will be our choice.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Nimble? What does that actually mean? What is the EU doing that stops us being nimble now?
Failing to sign trade agreements on our behalf while preventing us from signing our own.
Please name a single non-European economy larger than our own that we have a free trade agreement with.
There are only 3 countries larger: that'll be USA, China and Japan.
EU and Japan are already in discussions.
While we have no agreement with any of them just the promise of discussions with one, Australia has a free trade agreement already in place with all three of those.
Any wonder why they've leapfrogged Europe economically?
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Mikey Garcia is a lot more nimble than Anthony Joshua but I know who I'd back if the two met in the ring.
So Leave the ring then. Don't Remain in the ring taking a pummeling.
You mean just trade with ourselves? OK well I suppose it's one way forward but even North Korea has external trade agreements.
No I mean trade freely but leave the confines of the EU which is the ring. Free from the burden of the EU we can trade with anyone we want and will be capable of replicating the success of other non-EU nations.
We need @kle4 to clarify the analogy. We might be nimble but the key blocs we want to negotiate with (EU, China, US) are all huge entities which dwarf us and our negotiating strategies.
As part of the EU we were a leading element of a huge trading bloc but that's a discussion for pre-June 2016.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Mikey Garcia is a lot more nimble than Anthony Joshua but I know who I'd back if the two met in the ring.
So Leave the ring then. Don't Remain in the ring taking a pummeling.
You mean just trade with ourselves? OK well I suppose it's one way forward but even North Korea has external trade agreements.
No I mean trade freely but leave the confines of the EU which is the ring. Free from the burden of the EU we can trade with anyone we want and will be capable of replicating the success of other non-EU nations.
We need @kle4 to clarify the analogy. We might be nimble but the key blocs we want to negotiate with (EU, China, US) are all huge entities which dwarf us and our negotiating strategies.
As part of the EU we were a leading element of a huge trading bloc but that's a discussion for pre-June 2016.
Well quite. We had our big bloc to trade with: the EU. That also had the advantage of simply being a friendly and harmonious club that we had a say in running. Those very different monsters - China, the US - will eat us alive.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Nimble? What does that actually mean? What is the EU doing that stops us being nimble now?
Failing to sign trade agreements on our behalf while preventing us from signing our own.
Please name a single non-European economy larger than our own that we have a free trade agreement with.
There are only 3 countries larger: that'll be USA, China and Japan.
EU and Japan are already in discussions.
While we have no agreement with any of them just the promise of discussions with one, Australia has a free trade agreement already in place with all three of those.
Any wonder why they've leapfrogged Europe economically?
China needs access to Australia's vast reserves of iron ore and coal. What does China need from Britain?
I can't see the NZ coalition government as being at all coherent. It's interesting that Labour should see reducing immigration as a price worth paying to get into office.
It feels a bit like an Yvette Cooper or a Heidi Alexander getting into bed with Nigel Farage (or whoever the new guy is.. I forget) to form an administration.
Odd.
And in the bedroom They argued all night About who had the right To do what and with which and to whom
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
I am sitting in the cafe of a garden centre. There are a couple of Italian mothers with babies here. They have justly briefly discussed Brexit ie the latest news or non-news about the talks. What they said was not particularly interesting. What was interesting - to me anyway - was that it is literally the first time I have heard anyone discuss Brexit at all (outside of PB, where we seem to talk of little else these days).
Damp days like this are great for gardening, BTW, because the earth is soft (and warm) so it is easy to plant bulbs and move plants.
Enjoy your gardening
I find gardening centres peculiar places - all those strange plants and liquids and implements. I think the coffee shop is my favourite part
I am such a gardening luddite ...
Any advoice for clay soils?
Make pottery from them? (like I said, I am no gardener)
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Australia wasn't considered a "poor country" in 1992. Brits have been emigrating out there for a better life for the best part of a century.
If that is correct, then there should be no difficulty in the EU or the UK setting out what legally is owed by a departing state. And yet the difficulty seems to be - in part - just that. Why?
Is it, just possibly, because (a) the EU wants the UK to pay sums which are not legally owed but which were discussed and agreed in some general way while the UK was a member; and (b) the UK only wants to pay such sums if it gets something in return.
The problem the EU has is that we are leaving close to the end of a budgetary cycle. We leave in 2019 and the 7 year cycle ends in 2020. As such what we are legally obliged to pay under a budget we have agreed is going to be fairly small - probably the £10-£20 billion that the UK has suggested. The EU may agree this is what is legally due but they will not see it as sufficiently punishing 'pour encourager les autres'. Hence the fact they will not say exactly what we are supposed to be paying and are hoping we will come up with a figure notably higher than what we are legally due to pay.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
Strange fact. When Britain first joined the Common Market, Australia and New Zealand considered applying for membership too. The thought was that it was grouping of shared ideals rather than geography. This was soon abandoned as being pie in the sky. We're now clinging to the same delusion in reverse.
Saturday? Its almost as if Rajoy wants to provoke an intemperate and illegal response isn't it?
It's the process that starts on Saturday. It has to go tot he Senate and be approved there, which will take a little while. However, you can bet your bottom dollar that the PP and the Spanish state's institutions will contrive to create more positive publicity for the separatists.
On a related note, the profile of those who support independence for Catalonia is fascinating. The best predictors are wealth and purity of Catalan blood.
Which is why it is so ironic that some on here lauding the separatists think it is all aboutdemocracy and the common [Catalan] man. At the moment there is agreement between PP/PSOE and Cs on the current approach - only Podemos are seeking to make political capital out of the crisis.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Australia wasn't considered a "poor country" in 1992. Brits have been emigrating out there for a better life for the best part of a century.
I didn't say "poor country", I said "poorer" which it was. Better weather, but poorer economy. Now they have a better economy and better weather.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
If that is correct, then there should be no difficulty in the EU or the UK setting out what legally is owed by a departing state. And yet the difficulty seems to be - in part - just that. Why?
Is it, just possibly, because (a) the EU wants the UK to pay sums which are not legally owed but which were discussed and agreed in some general way while the UK was a member; and (b) the UK only wants to pay such sums if it gets something in return.
The problem the EU has is that we are leaving close to the end of a budgetary cycle. We leave in 2019 and the 7 year cycle ends in 2020. As such what we are legally obliged to pay under a budget we have agreed is going to be fairly small - probably the £10-£20 billion that the UK has suggested. The EU may agree this is what is legally due but they will not see it as sufficiently punishing 'pour encourager les autres'. Hence the fact they will not say exactly what we are supposed to be paying and are hoping we will come up with a figure notably higher than what we are legally due to pay.
It's a negotiation. The EU doesn't need rationale - just leverage.
Saturday? Its almost as if Rajoy wants to provoke an intemperate and illegal response isn't it?
It's the process that starts on Saturday. It has to go tot he Senate and be approved there, which will take a little while. However, you can bet your bottom dollar that the PP and the Spanish state's institutions will contrive to create more positive publicity for the separatists.
On a related note, the profile of those who support independence for Catalonia is fascinating. The best predictors are wealth and purity of Catalan blood.
So does Puigdemont have the Catalan Parliament declare independence today or tomorrow? A difficult call for him, not least because he faces being arrested, but a huge loss of face if he doesn't.
There has been no sessions of the Catalan parliament for a month. The entire political process is in chaos. The best way to move forward would be to call elections, but if Puigdemont does that he knows his party would be wiped out. I suspect that elections is where this will end after a few months of direct rule.
If that is correct, then there should be no difficulty in the EU or the UK setting out what legally is owed by a departing state. And yet the difficulty seems to be - in part - just that. Why?
Is it, just possibly, because (a) the EU wants the UK to pay sums which are not legally owed but which were discussed and agreed in some general way while the UK was a member; and (b) the UK only wants to pay such sums if it gets something in return.
The problem the EU has is that we are leaving close to the end of a budgetary cycle. We leave in 2019 and the 7 year cycle ends in 2020. As such what we are legally obliged to pay under a budget we have agreed is going to be fairly small - probably the £10-£20 billion that the UK has suggested. The EU may agree this is what is legally due but they will not see it as sufficiently punishing 'pour encourager les autres'. Hence the fact they will not say exactly what we are supposed to be paying and are hoping we will come up with a figure notably higher than what we are legally due to pay.
It's a negotiation. The EU doesn't need rationale - just leverage.
Oh I agree. I am simply looking at the reasons why the EU has been so reticent to come up with some actual defendable figures for what we owe. Something that will stand up under arbitration or litigation.
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Nimble? What does that actually mean? What is the EU doing that stops us being nimble now?
Failing to sign trade agreements on our behalf while preventing us from signing our own.
Please name a single non-European economy larger than our own that we have a free trade agreement with.
There are only 3 countries larger: that'll be USA, China and Japan.
EU and Japan are already in discussions.
While we have no agreement with any of them just the promise of discussions with one, Australia has a free trade agreement already in place with all three of those.
Any wonder why they've leapfrogged Europe economically?
China needs access to Australia's vast reserves of iron ore and coal. What does China need from Britain?
I am sitting in the cafe of a garden centre. There are a couple of Italian mothers with babies here. They have justly briefly discussed Brexit ie the latest news or non-news about the talks. What they said was not particularly interesting. What was interesting - to me anyway - was that it is literally the first time I have heard anyone discuss Brexit at all (outside of PB, where we seem to talk of little else these days).
Damp days like this are great for gardening, BTW, because the earth is soft (and warm) so it is easy to plant bulbs and move plants.
Enjoy your gardening
I find gardening centres peculiar places - all those strange plants and liquids and implements. I think the coffee shop is my favourite part
I am such a gardening luddite ...
Any advoice for clay soils?
If I could earn my living gardening that is what I would do. It is what keeps me sane. More or less.
I have clay soil. Put in compost to help loosen it up. And mulch. Worms will take it all down into the soil and make it rich and wonderful. But essentially grow plants in it that thrive in clay. So roses, for instance, and dahlias and agapanthus and salvias and ferns -my latest passion - in shady corners and alchemilla and geranium Rozanne for gorgeous ground cover in summer. And euphorbia and alstroemeria. And the best climber in the world is trachelospermum jasminoides. Beautiful, evergreen, jasmine scented white flowers in summer (though I have some flowers now) and needs very little care other than a bit of pruning if it outgrows its space.
I could go on.....
My pride and joy is this: I have the usual side return you find in terraced houses. It is south-facing so gets a lot of sun. But instead of building out a big kitchen so that you have more space for pointless gadgets, I built an arch in it and made a door down into it from the living room and put planters along the fence so that we have a wonderful view from both the kitchen and living room, framed by the arch, of roses and jasmine and bulbs and all the rest all the year round and a wonderfully sensuous passageway into the rest of the garden. And with the right plants you could do the same even with a North facing passageway.
SO much nicer to look at it and be in than yet another cupboard.
Plus I still have to tell you about my front garden.......
But I will shut up now. There must surely have been some frightfully important Brexit development by now.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
More of their economy depends on importing Chinese (and other) millionaires than on raw materials export, I think. Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Well for exporting huge volumes of iron and coal a gap spanned by sea is superior to land, so if we had vast mineral wealth as Aus does then we'd be able to trade with the USA alot. But Aus is in a superior position for mineral trade with China (Even if we had the same resources)
Mrs Stodge employs me as her Acting Junior Deputy Under Gardener with special responsibility for Slugs, Snails, Spiders, Weeds, Compost and Fetching & Carrying.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
The Greek negotiator during their spat with the EU gave an interesting opinion on R5L.
He says the EU has no intention of getting a mutually advantageous trade deal with the UK. It needs to discourage recalcitrant countries even if they suffer too. The old cutting off nose to spite face. And what Boris called a punishment beating.
So we either accept it, give them a King's ransom and cower in the corner like a whipped cur, or tell them where they can stick it.
Do the bitter Remainers eally want to join a club like this?
There are a few curs around, whimpering for all they're worth, but I suspect they're outnumbered by the barkers.
I think many of the political commentators have been too quick to write off the SNP. Most recent Holyrood & WM polling is showing that the SNP is steadily recovering it's position. Given the Tories woes and SLAB's leadership shenanigans this recovery is most likely set to continue.
In terms of the Tories wishing for an SNP revival to keep SLAB at bay, it would be just as likely to sweep them away as well. With the SNP now solidly in 40% territory for WM & Holyrood, a return to +45% would see them back into sweeping the board territory in the FPTP seats.
One of SLAB's main issues which it needs to address to secure it's current support levels, is how to keep on side the 25-30% of it's supporters who favour independence. If they climb onboard the diehard Unionists bus - this segment of support is vulnerable to switching to the SNP.
I feel a bit sorry for Ruth who's continuing popularity appears to have become disengaged from falling SCON support. I'm sure she'll do the right thing for Scotland and fight for funds to regentrify Scotland's cities and boost the economy. However, the SNP will likely get the credit for any improvement in the Scottish economy. That's politics for you, a very unfair game.
Interesting that Anas is so keen to distance himself from Bettertogether, despite copious evidence to the contrary. Perhaps he's showing hitherto unrevealed political smarts.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Australia wasn't considered a "poor country" in 1992. Brits have been emigrating out there for a better life for the best part of a century.
Australia has always had more sun and better weather than Britain, the fact it is richer than Britain too now on a per capita basis just adds to the attraction. (Though we still attract a fair few Aussies to London which is a bigger global city than any down under).
I think many of the political commentators have been too quick to write off the SNP. Most recent Holyrood & WM polling is showing that the SNP is steadily recovering it's position. Given the Tories woes and SLAB's leadership shenanigans this recovery is most likely set to continue.
In terms of the Tories wishing for an SNP revival to keep SLAB at bay, it would be just as likely to sweep them away as well. With the SNP now solidly in 40% territory for WM & Holyrood, a return to +45% would see them back into sweeping the board territory in the FPTP seats.
One of SLAB's main issues which it needs to address to secure it's current support levels, is how to keep on side the 25-30% of it's supporters who favour independence. If they climb onboard the diehard Unionists bus - this segment of support is vulnerable to switching to the SNP.
I feel a bit sorry for Ruth who's continuing popularity appears to have become disengaged from falling SCON support. I'm sure she'll do the right thing for Scotland and fight for funds to regentrify Scotland's cities and boost the economy. However, the SNP will likely get the credit for any improvement in the Scottish economy. That's politics for you, a very unfair game.
The SNP are now polling well below Westminster 2015 and Holyrood 2016 levels, the fact they have recovered a fraction from their June disaster does not change that
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Nimble? What does that actually mean? What is the EU doing that stops us being nimble now?
Failing to sign trade agreements on our behalf while preventing us from signing our own.
Please name a single non-European economy larger than our own that we have a free trade agreement with.
There are only 3 countries larger: that'll be USA, China and Japan.
EU and Japan are already in discussions.
While we have no agreement with any of them just the promise of discussions with one, Australia has a free trade agreement already in place with all three of those.
Any wonder why they've leapfrogged Europe economically?
China needs access to Australia's vast reserves of iron ore and coal. What does China need from Britain?
Know-how.
Not kow-tow.
Oh come on this isn't 1950
What know how does Britain have which China doesn't?
We are importing far more know how from them, including on highly sensitive matters such as nuclear power.
The SNP needs to put Indy firmly on the back burner (how Catalonia turns out may help or hinder here) and aim to secure tactical support against Tory or Labour, whoever is second
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
I can't see the NZ coalition government as being at all coherent. It's interesting that Labour should see reducing immigration as a price worth paying to get into office.
Corbyn is still committed to ending free movement and leaving the single market to keep Labour Leavers on board
In GE2010 Scotland gave the most boring results of any part of the UK, with not a single seat changing hands (not counting by-elections). Since then every vote in Scotland has been fascinating, with big swings back and forth and all over the place.
Since the SNP won't support the Tories, but presumably would support Labour, then it makes no short-term sense for the Conservatives to cheer the SNP on as that is likely to cost the Conservatives seats. In terms of staying in power the Conservative score is basically all that matters. If no one other than the DUP will support the Conservatives, then the size of the Lab-Con gap isn't that relevant.
But in the long term, a [potentially short-lived] SNP-Labour government could be very beneficial to the Tories, especially the Scottish ones.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
I suggest you buy an atlas and use it. Australia is miles from everywhere. Europe is 25 miles away
The Greek negotiator during their spat with the EU gave an interesting opinion on R5L.
He says the EU has no intention of getting a mutually advantageous trade deal with the UK. It needs to discourage recalcitrant countries even if they suffer too. The old cutting off nose to spite face. And what Boris called a punishment beating.
So we either accept it, give them a King's ransom and cower in the corner like a whipped cur, or tell them where they can stick it.
Do the bitter Remainers eally want to join a club like this?
There are a few curs around, whimpering for all they're worth, but I suspect they're outnumbered by the barkers.
The EU was always going to be beastly to us if we left - only the most naive and witless Leavers thought otherwise. Why this in itself constitutes a reason for leaving is beyond my powers of logical comprehension.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Measuring distance from the center of one very large country to the center of another very large country is a bit nawty.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Well for exporting huge volumes of iron and coal a gap spanned by sea is superior to land, so if we had vast mineral wealth as Aus does then we'd be able to trade with the USA alot. But Aus is in a superior position for mineral trade with China (Even if we had the same resources)
Flight times between major cities, for people, and shipping times between major ports, for goods, are more meaningful here than crow flying distance.
Since the SNP won't support the Tories, but presumably would support Labour, then it makes no short-term sense for the Conservatives to cheer the SNP on as that is likely to cost the Conservatives seats. In terms of staying in power the Conservative score is basically all that matters. If no one other than the DUP will support the Conservatives, then the size of the Lab-Con gap isn't that relevant.
But in the long term, a [potentially short-lived] SNP-Labour government could be very beneficial to the Tories, especially the Scottish ones.
A Labour-SNP-LD government even better as it would leave the Tories as the only real party of opposition and the protest vote
The Greek negotiator during their spat with the EU gave an interesting opinion on R5L.
He says the EU has no intention of getting a mutually advantageous trade deal with the UK. It needs to discourage recalcitrant countries even if they suffer too. The old cutting off nose to spite face. And what Boris called a punishment beating.
So we either accept it, give them a King's ransom and cower in the corner like a whipped cur, or tell them where they can stick it.
Do the bitter Remainers eally want to join a club like this?
There are a few curs around, whimpering for all they're worth, but I suspect they're outnumbered by the barkers.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Well for exporting huge volumes of iron and coal a gap spanned by sea is superior to land, so if we had vast mineral wealth as Aus does then we'd be able to trade with the USA alot. But Aus is in a superior position for mineral trade with China (Even if we had the same resources)
Flight times between major cities, for people, and shipping times between major ports, for goods, are more meaningful here than crow flying distance.
Worth saying also that the worldwide exodus from coal-fired energy and the expected decline of Chinese steel production over the next 2 decades will not be kind to Australia.
My pride and joy is this: I have the usual side return you find in terraced houses. It is south-facing so gets a lot of sun. But instead of building out a big kitchen so that you have more space for pointless gadgets, I built an arch in it and made a door down into it from the living room and put planters along the fence so that we have a wonderful view from both the kitchen and living room, framed by the arch, of roses and jasmine and bulbs and all the rest all the year round and a wonderfully sensuous passageway into the rest of the garden. And with the right plants you could do the same even with a North facing passageway.
SO much nicer to look at it and be in than yet another cupboard.
It sounds absolutely lovely! I restrict my gardening to my herb pots and my eternal battles with slugs and snails. It is all I am capable of and even those go wrong sometimes.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Measuring distance from the center of one very large country to the center of another very large country is a bit nawty.
Indeed it is, but it's a reasonable approximation especially given if you don't do that I thought I'd be accused of exaggerating the distance. Since Sydney, Canberra or Melbourne etc are on the South-East coast of Australia and measuring from there would make the distances considerably bigger.
London to New York 5,585 km Sydney to New York 15,979 km.
Yet Australia has a trade agreement with its "close neighbour" the USA while we don't.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
Nah... bullshit. Bankers are very good at making bullshit sound like dreams and sizzle but it is mostly bullshit.
I should know. I’ve spent a lifetime with a mop and bucket cleaning it up.
Very harsh and, for PB, perhaps to gain a cheap laugh.
Bullshit claims? To whom? Their corporate clients? That they can get an unobtainable multiple?
Not sure which bit is bullshit to that extent. Give me a for instance.
("Gardening in High Heels" would, IMO, be an instant bestseller and stay at the top of the bestseller lists for months. Just the concept would be enough to make people buy the book regardless of content - which I'm sure would be very good. Get thee to a publisher.)
When the gardening bug strikes I have even been known to garden in high heels.
“Gardening in High Heels” - now there’s a book title!
Was there a reason for that? Or was it an emergency gardening situation?
Did you have a matching bag/clutch?
I was in the garden, waiting for a handsome young man to come and see me about something or other, saw something that needed doing and got on with it without changing my shoes. It was summer so no harm was done to the shoes. (Orange suede with kitten heels. Very striking and comfortable.)
My daughter still teases me about it.
The only emergency I ever face in the garden is trying to get rid of the bloody squirrel that digs up my bulbs........
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Measuring distance from the center of one very large country to the center of another very large country is a bit nawty.
Indeed it is, but it's a reasonable approximation especially given if you don't do that I thought I'd be accused of exaggerating the distance. Since Sydney, Canberra or Melbourne etc are on the South-East coast of Australia and measuring from there would make the distances considerably bigger.
London to New York 5,585 km Sydney to New York 15,979 km.
Yet Australia has a trade agreement with its "close neighbour" the USA while we don't.
Perhaps New York is unfair on Australia so if we go for California instead
Sydney to Los Angeles 12,066 km. Still massively further away than the UK is.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Measuring distance from the center of one very large country to the center of another very large country is a bit nawty.
Indeed it is, but it's a reasonable approximation especially given if you don't do that I thought I'd be accused of exaggerating the distance. Since Sydney, Canberra or Melbourne etc are on the South-East coast of Australia and measuring from there would make the distances considerably bigger.
London to New York 5,585 km Sydney to New York 15,979 km.
Yet Australia has a trade agreement with its "close neighbour" the USA while we don't.
Trade relations between Australia and the USA certainly aren't all sweetness and light at the moment. A small example from my own industry is the anti-dumping duty Trump has just imposed on Australian exports of silicon.
When the gardening bug strikes I have even been known to garden in high heels.
“Gardening in High Heels” - now there’s a book title!
Was there a reason for that? Or was it an emergency gardening situation?
Did you have a matching bag/clutch?
I was in the garden, waiting for a handsome young man to come and see me about something or other, saw something that needed doing and got on with it without changing my shoes. It was summer so no harm was done to the shoes. (Orange suede with kitten heels. Very striking and comfortable.)
My daughter still teases me about it.
The only emergency I ever face in the garden is trying to get rid of the bloody squirrel that digs up my bulbs........
I have the same problem with a badger. Holes everywhere. My electronic gadget that was supposed to deter it has flat batteries and now it is digging up my lawn all the time, again.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
More of their economy depends on importing Chinese (and other) millionaires than on raw materials export, I think. Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
After the Tories, Brexit and Corbyn in succession, the next generation faces a future of having to go to work on building sites and in restaurants in Poland. If the EU lets them in.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
Nah... bullshit. Bankers are very good at making bullshit sound like dreams and sizzle but it is mostly bullshit.
I should know. I’ve spent a lifetime with a mop and bucket cleaning it up.
Very harsh and, for PB, perhaps to gain a cheap laugh.
Bullshit claims? To whom? Their corporate clients? That they can get an unobtainable multiple?
Not sure which bit is bullshit to that extent. Give me a for instance.
("Gardening in High Heels" would, IMO, be an instant bestseller and stay at the top of the bestseller lists for months. Just the concept would be enough to make people buy the book regardless of content - which I'm sure would be very good. Get thee to a publisher.)
No - not said for a cheap laugh. It’s what I’ve been saying to bankers themselves for years now and quite a few agree.
I can’t for reasons of confidentiality give you specific examples. But, for instance, too many of the supposed benefits of mergers turn out to be non-existent or hugely outweighed by the costs.
I will start writing that book....... (Mind you, with that sort of title who knows what sort of audience it might get.......)
Mr. Observer, easy to get an agreement when you're armed with a white flag.
This is what the 52% voted for - a negotiation in which the other side holds all the cards. It is the will of the people.
The UK has had 40 years of negotiating with a side which held all the cards.
Hence the humilation and failure of Blair and Cameron in their negotiations.
Leaving the EU allows the UK to change that relationship.
It does. We could change it by inflicting immense, long-term damage on living standards across the country; or we could change it by paying over some money and coming to a new, amicable arrangement. Clearly, the latter option is best for the UK. Unfortunately, the former seems to be the only way the Conservative party stays together.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
Nimble? What does that actually mean? What is the EU doing that stops us being nimble now?
Failing to sign trade agreements on our behalf while preventing us from signing our own.
Please name a single non-European economy larger than our own that we have a free trade agreement with.
There are only 3 countries larger: that'll be USA, China and Japan.
EU and Japan are already in discussions.
While we have no agreement with any of them just the promise of discussions with one, Australia has a free trade agreement already in place with all three of those.
Any wonder why they've leapfrogged Europe economically?
China needs access to Australia's vast reserves of iron ore and coal. What does China need from Britain?
Know-how.
Not kow-tow.
Oh come on this isn't 1950
What know how does Britain have which China doesn't?
We are importing far more know how from them, including on highly sensitive matters such as nuclear power.
Aero engines; pharmaceuticals... but in general, you are quite right. China is spending very large amounts of money indeed to become a (or the) research powerhouse.
When the gardening bug strikes I have even been known to garden in high heels.
“Gardening in High Heels” - now there’s a book title!
Was there a reason for that? Or was it an emergency gardening situation?
Did you have a matching bag/clutch?
I was in the garden, waiting for a handsome young man to come and see me about something or other, saw something that needed doing and got on with it without changing my shoes. It was summer so no harm was done to the shoes. (Orange suede with kitten heels. Very striking and comfortable.)
The only emergency I ever face in the garden is trying to get rid of the bloody squirrel that digs up my bulbs........
I quite like the long tailed tree rats myself, but then my garden has nothing that I worry about. I do have several foxes that pass through and one who sleeps under the conifer on wet mornings
Can someone explain to me why the people who were so obsessed with "the sovereignty of the British Parliament" are apparenly so relaxed about the government ignoring Parliament's sovereign decision on Universal Credit?
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Measuring distance from the center of one very large country to the center of another very large country is a bit nawty.
Indeed it is, but it's a reasonable approximation especially given if you don't do that I thought I'd be accused of exaggerating the distance. Since Sydney, Canberra or Melbourne etc are on the South-East coast of Australia and measuring from there would make the distances considerably bigger.
London to New York 5,585 km Sydney to New York 15,979 km.
Yet Australia has a trade agreement with its "close neighbour" the USA while we don't.
I think eg the iron ore ports are in the NW & presumably their ships go to ports in South China?
The Greek negotiator during their spat with the EU gave an interesting opinion on R5L.
He says the EU has no intention of getting a mutually advantageous trade deal with the UK. It needs to discourage recalcitrant countries even if they suffer too. The old cutting off nose to spite face. And what Boris called a punishment beating.
So we either accept it, give them a King's ransom and cower in the corner like a whipped cur, or tell them where they can stick it.
Do the bitter Remainers eally want to join a club like this?
There are a few curs around, whimpering for all they're worth, but I suspect they're outnumbered by the barkers.
Oh they're certainly barking...
The sensible thing to do would be to announce an immediate cut in corporation tax and deregulation in the city. Show the world the UK is open for business. And prepared to undercut the competition.
But would such a thing be politically viable in today's environment? And when Corbyn gets in he will be looking to stick corporation tax up... not that the big players will pay it.
.... We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Yes we could. One of the things we could learn is not to ignore/irritate our biggest trading partners right on our doorstep. Australia's biggest trading partners are China, Japan, Singapore, Korea, New Zealand and the USA
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
So those are their close neighbours are they? So we should be looking at a similar distance as close neighbours right?
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
Measuring distance from the center of one very large country to the center of another very large country is a bit nawty.
Indeed it is, but it's a reasonable approximation especially given if you don't do that I thought I'd be accused of exaggerating the distance. Since Sydney, Canberra or Melbourne etc are on the South-East coast of Australia and measuring from there would make the distances considerably bigger.
London to New York 5,585 km Sydney to New York 15,979 km.
Yet Australia has a trade agreement with its "close neighbour" the USA while we don't.
I think eg the iron ore ports are in the NW & presumably their ships go to ports in South China?
China's biggest port for imports of coal and iron ore is Tianjin, near Beijing.
In Australia the iron ore is mostly exported from the north of Western Australia (Port Hedland), while the coal is mined in the east of the country and is normally shipped from Newcastle in NSW.
Can someone explain to me why the people who were so obsessed with "the sovereignty of the British Parliament" are apparenly so relaxed about the government ignoring Parliament's sovereign decision on Universal Credit?
Parliament hasn't made a sovereign decision on Universal Credit.
Can you point to me the bill or statute that Parliament has passed that you are referring to?
Parliament also has the right to No Confidence the government if it is not implementing its will.
When the gardening bug strikes I have even been known to garden in high heels.
“Gardening in High Heels” - now there’s a book title!
Was there a reason for that? Or was it an emergency gardening situation?
Did you have a matching bag/clutch?
I was in the garden, waiting for a handsome young man to come and see me about something or other, saw something that needed doing and got on with it without changing my shoes. It was summer so no harm was done to the shoes. (Orange suede with kitten heels. Very striking and comfortable.)
The only emergency I ever face in the garden is trying to get rid of the bloody squirrel that digs up my bulbs........
I quite like the long tailed tree rats myself, but then my garden has nothing that I worry about. I do have several foxes that pass through and one who sleeps under the conifer on wet mornings
I have foxes too. There’s a burrow 2 gardens down. A nuisance since one of them stole one of my shoes left on the veranda and a few months back one was chased into the house or got in somehow, made it into the first floor bathroom and proceeded to leave an almightly mess everywhere before finally escaping. And all at 3 am!
Squirrels are, I’m afraid, the enemy. Second only to slugs and snails.
If I could only train my dog or cats to get rid of them........
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
More of their economy depends on importing Chinese (and other) millionaires than on raw materials export, I think. Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
After the Tories, Brexit and Corbyn in succession, the next generation faces a future of having to go to work on building sites and in restaurants in Poland. If the EU lets them in.
Unless there's a massive culture shift, they won't go.
Any employer in agriculture or manufacturing will tell you that young Brits and increasingly young west Europeans turn their noses up at these kind of jobs, even when the pay is quite good.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
More of their economy depends on importing Chinese (and other) millionaires than on raw materials export, I think. Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
After the Tories, Brexit and Corbyn in succession, the next generation faces a future of having to go to work on building sites and in restaurants in Poland. If the EU lets them in.
Does this mean a new series of Boys from the Black Stuff? Can't wait.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
Since Leavers seem to be manufacturing an inexhaustible supply of bullshit, perhaps that's the commodity for the boom.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
More of their economy depends on importing Chinese (and other) millionaires than on raw materials export, I think. Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
After the Tories, Brexit and Corbyn in succession, the next generation faces a future of having to go to work on building sites and in restaurants in Poland. If the EU lets them in.
Does this mean a new series of Boys from the Black Stuff? Can't wait.
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
More of their economy depends on importing Chinese (and other) millionaires than on raw materials export, I think. Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
After the Tories, Brexit and Corbyn in succession, the next generation faces a future of having to go to work on building sites and in restaurants in Poland. If the EU lets them in.
Unless there's a massive culture shift, they won't go.
Any employer in agriculture or manufacturing will tell you that young Brits and increasingly young west Europeans turn their noses up at these kind of jobs, even when the pay is quite good.
Yes but once we are all living in caves, have eaten all our pets and @cyclefree's squirrels and have forgotten what air transport is like since no one will let us land all of our enterprising youth will be climbing into their coracles and looking for work. Stands to reason.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
More of their economy depends on importing Chinese (and other) millionaires than on raw materials export, I think. Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
After the Tories, Brexit and Corbyn in succession, the next generation faces a future of having to go to work on building sites and in restaurants in Poland. If the EU lets them in.
Does this mean a new series of Boys from the Black Stuff? Can't wait.
See this is the bit I don't understand - once we leave we aren't going to twiddle our thumbs for the next 30 years.
That is right - we will spend 30 years trying to get back to where we were pre-Brexit and trying to regain our reputation for competence that the current bunch of delusional ditherers has trashed. The world is not standing around looking in admiration at us plucky Brits. The world is looking at us and thinking either "How can we exploit this?" or "WTF are they doing?"
Free of the EU - the Uk could be a lot more nimble - should it choose a government which will enable that.
That is what you would like, an ideal scenario. What we will get is reality. Post Brexit we will soon know who our friends are.
But what the heck... you will soon rationalise this away and believe whatever you want. Just remember that it is unlikely that reality will share your idealism.
God knows how nations a fraction of our [economic] size like Australia, Canada etc cope outside the bosom of the EU.
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
What precisely would we learn from Australia? Dig a big hole in the middle of the country and ride a commodities boom?
More of their economy depends on importing Chinese (and other) millionaires than on raw materials export, I think. Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
After the Tories, Brexit and Corbyn in succession, the next generation faces a future of having to go to work on building sites and in restaurants in Poland. If the EU lets them in.
Does this mean a new series of Boys from the Black Stuff? Can't wait.
Auf Wiedersehen, Pet, surely.
He (or his subconscious) knew what he meant.
'a warm, humorous but ultimately tragic look at the way economics affect ordinary people'
When the gardening bug strikes I have even been known to garden in high heels.
“Gardening in High Heels” - now there’s a book title!
Was there a reason for that? Or was it an emergency gardening situation?
Did you have a matching bag/clutch?
I was in the garden, waiting for a handsome young man to come and see me about something or other, saw something that needed doing and got on with it without changing my shoes. It was summer so no harm was done to the shoes. (Orange suede with kitten heels. Very striking and comfortable.)
The only emergency I ever face in the garden is trying to get rid of the bloody squirrel that digs up my bulbs........
I quite like the long tailed tree rats myself, but then my garden has nothing that I worry about. I do have several foxes that pass through and one who sleeps under the conifer on wet mornings
I have foxes too. There’s a burrow 2 gardens down. A nuisance since one of them stole one of my shoes left on the veranda and a few months back one was chased into the house or got in somehow, made it into the first floor bathroom and proceeded to leave an almightly mess everywhere before finally escaping. And all at 3 am!
Squirrels are, I’m afraid, the enemy. Second only to slugs and snails.
If I could only train my dog or cats to get rid of them........
Though they can be adorable. Watching fox cubs emerge at dusk to play on your back lawn is rather magical.
Comments
Leader Ratings earlier this year were pointing towards a virtually unprecedentedly large gulf between May and Corbyn. How did that turn out in the end?
Nothing is set in stone until the votes have already been cast. Public opinion can change quickly on anything, including leader ratings - May and Corbyn are proof of that.
This has already been investigated thoroughly by the relevant authorities.
Damp days like this are great for gardening, BTW, because the earth is soft (and warm) so it is easy to plant bulbs and move plants.
Crossing at least two bridges, of course!
Please name a single non-European economy larger than our own that we have a free trade agreement with.
EU and Japan are already in discussions.
I find gardening centres peculiar places - all those strange plants and liquids and implements. I think the coffee shop is my favourite part
I am such a gardening luddite ...
I moved to Australia in 1992. Back then Australia was a poorer country than European nations. Per capita British GDP was 10% higher than Australia's. German GDP per capita was 50% higher.
Since then the EU has been sclerotic and failed while Australia has been nimble and signed free trade deals with lots of the world including the USA. But not including the sclerotic EU.
Today the idea of Aussies being poor has completely been reversed. Aussie GDP per capita is 25% higher than Britain's and 20% higher than Germany's. An incredible transformation in the last quarter century.
We could learn a thing or two from our Antipodean cousins.
Would the UK not care about that once we are outside the EU?
Any wonder why they've leapfrogged Europe economically?
As part of the EU we were a leading element of a huge trading bloc but that's a discussion for pre-June 2016.
The UK does more trade with Belgium than it does with Australia, NZ and Canada combined
They argued all night
About who had the right
To do what and with which
and to whom
Know-how.
Not kow-tow.
I have clay soil. Put in compost to help loosen it up. And mulch. Worms will take it all down into the soil and make it rich and wonderful. But essentially grow plants in it that thrive in clay. So roses, for instance, and dahlias and agapanthus and salvias and ferns -my latest passion - in shady corners and alchemilla and geranium Rozanne for gorgeous ground cover in summer. And euphorbia and alstroemeria. And the best climber in the world is trachelospermum jasminoides. Beautiful, evergreen, jasmine scented white flowers in summer (though I have some flowers now) and needs very little care other than a bit of pruning if it outgrows its space.
I could go on.....
My pride and joy is this: I have the usual side return you find in terraced houses. It is south-facing so gets a lot of sun. But instead of building out a big kitchen so that you have more space for pointless gadgets, I built an arch in it and made a door down into it from the living room and put planters along the fence so that we have a wonderful view from both the kitchen and living room, framed by the arch, of roses and jasmine and bulbs and all the rest all the year round and a wonderfully sensuous passageway into the rest of the garden. And with the right plants you could do the same even with a North facing passageway.
SO much nicer to look at it and be in than yet another cupboard.
Plus I still have to tell you about my front garden.......
But I will shut up now. There must surely have been some frightfully important Brexit development by now.
Thus far, Brexit is likely to make us a less attractive destination - and the possibility of a Corbyn government is unlikely to improve that...
Distance from Australia to China: 7,475 km
Distance from UK to China: 7,775 km
Distance from Australia to USA: 15,175 km
Distance from UK to USA: 6,826 km
Interesting to note what is close in your eyes seems quite variable. Why are Aus close to USA and China but we're not?
*.... looks around for @Charles and hides......*
But Aus is in a superior position for mineral trade with China (Even if we had the same resources)
When the gardening bug strikes I have even been known to garden in high heels.
“Gardening in High Heels” - now there’s a book title!
Garden centres - I'm also a fan of the cafes.
Mrs Stodge employs me as her Acting Junior Deputy Under Gardener with special responsibility for Slugs, Snails, Spiders, Weeds, Compost and Fetching & Carrying.
He says the EU has no intention of getting a mutually advantageous trade deal with the UK. It needs to discourage recalcitrant countries even if they suffer too. The old cutting off nose to spite face. And what Boris called a punishment beating.
So we either accept it, give them a King's ransom and cower in the corner like a whipped cur, or tell them where they can stick it.
Do the bitter Remainers eally want to join a club like this?
There are a few curs around, whimpering for all they're worth, but I suspect they're outnumbered by the barkers.
https://twitter.com/WingsScotland/status/920945358347358209
Brexit & Bettertogether vying for the top spot in the 'wouldn't touch it with your shitty stick' charts.
What know how does Britain have which China doesn't?
We are importing far more know how from them, including on highly sensitive matters such as nuclear power.
But in the long term, a [potentially short-lived] SNP-Labour government could be very beneficial to the Tories, especially the Scottish ones.
Was there a reason for that? Or was it an emergency gardening situation?
Did you have a matching bag/clutch?
I should know. I’ve spent a lifetime with a mop and bucket cleaning it up.
Please do. It will be far more interesting than the repeats we get on here.
London to New York 5,585 km
Sydney to New York 15,979 km.
Yet Australia has a trade agreement with its "close neighbour" the USA while we don't.
Bullshit claims? To whom? Their corporate clients? That they can get an unobtainable multiple?
Not sure which bit is bullshit to that extent. Give me a for instance.
("Gardening in High Heels" would, IMO, be an instant bestseller and stay at the top of the bestseller lists for months. Just the concept would be enough to make people buy the book regardless of content - which I'm sure would be very good. Get thee to a publisher.)
My daughter still teases me about it.
The only emergency I ever face in the garden is trying to get rid of the bloody squirrel that digs up my bulbs........
Sydney to Los Angeles 12,066 km. Still massively further away than the UK is.
I can’t for reasons of confidentiality give you specific examples. But, for instance, too many of the supposed benefits of mergers turn out to be non-existent or hugely outweighed by the costs.
I will start writing that book.......
I quite like the long tailed tree rats myself, but then my garden has nothing that I worry about. I do have several foxes that pass through and one who sleeps under the conifer on wet mornings
But would such a thing be politically viable in today's environment? And when Corbyn gets in he will be looking to stick corporation tax up... not that the big players will pay it.
In Australia the iron ore is mostly exported from the north of Western Australia (Port Hedland), while the coal is mined in the east of the country and is normally shipped from Newcastle in NSW.
Can you point to me the bill or statute that Parliament has passed that you are referring to?
Parliament also has the right to No Confidence the government if it is not implementing its will.
Squirrels are, I’m afraid, the enemy. Second only to slugs and snails.
If I could only train my dog or cats to get rid of them........
Any employer in agriculture or manufacturing will tell you that young Brits and increasingly young west Europeans turn their noses up at these kind of jobs, even when the pay is quite good.
But @Cyclefree's post reads as though day in day out the IBs are defrauding, lying, cheating, etc.
'a warm, humorous but ultimately tragic look at the way economics affect ordinary people'