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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on who will be Foreign Secretary on the 1st of January

SystemSystem Posts: 11,730
edited October 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Betting on who will be Foreign Secretary on the 1st of January 2018

Ladbrokes have a market up who will be Foreign Secretary on the 1st of January 2018, I quite like these kind of markets. Boris Johnson’s actions in recent weeks has led many to urge Mrs May to conduct a reshuffle to rid her of her meddlesome Foreign Secretary.  With rumours abounding that Mrs May will conduct a reshuffle after this week’s EU Council Summit, this looks like a tempting market.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,261
    edited October 2017
    First.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,587
    Second. Boris should be so lucky.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,085
    Third. What price a post-budget reshuffle?
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Gove might be seen as too close to a certain former Chancellor to be appointed the next one. In any case, the budget is due on 22/11 which probably means it is now too late to replace Hammond.
    https://www.gov.uk/government/news/autumn-budget-2017-date-confirmed
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    "MPs collaborate to prevent May from signing "no deal" Brexit".

    Brilliant! We're leaving with a deal whether the EU like it or not! Can't think why we're wasting time talking to them.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,223

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
  • Options
    MetatronMetatron Posts: 193
    Find it very odd that Priti Patel the Foreign Aid secretary (and a brexiteer) is 16/1 whilst her deputy Rory Stewart is 10/1.
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited October 2017
    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    edited October 2017
    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    The political problem is that while many graduates will not earn enough to repay the debt, they still carry the debt, and this affects their voting behaviour. This should be relatively easy to fix by changing income-contingent loan repayments to some form of income-contingent graduate tax. Other solutions are possible (edit: see alex's post here) and we shall discover in five and a half weeks which if any have been chosen, or if this is mere kite-flying. Given its political importance, I'd expect something will be done soon.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,085
    edited October 2017
    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    A sensible Chancellor might say that when we leave the EU and no longer have to advance loans to every EU student (who have massive default rates), then the rates of interest can be lowered for both new and historic loans to British students, say to CPI+1% interest.
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    The political problem is that while many graduates will not earn enough to repay the debt, they still carry the debt, and this affects their voting behaviour. This should be relatively easy to fix by changing income-contingent loan repayments to some form of income-contingent graduate tax. Other solutions are possible (edit: see alex's post here) and we shall discover in five and a half weeks which if any have been chosen, or if this is mere kite-flying. Given its political importance, I'd expect something will be done soon.
    Essentially the system needs to better recognise the stated justification* for the massive expansion in University education and associated fees (ie. that those in receipt of university degrees gain a long term financial benefit from them), for individuals where that financial benefit arguably doesn't materialise, and compensate earlier for it. This is recognised at the moment by the ultimate cancellation of the debt, but this is very crude and, as highlighted, a major political problem.

  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,085
    edited October 2017

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    The political problem is that while many graduates will not earn enough to repay the debt, they still carry the debt, and this affects their voting behaviour. This should be relatively easy to fix by changing income-contingent loan repayments to some form of income-contingent graduate tax. Other solutions are possible (edit: see alex's post here) and we shall discover in five and a half weeks which if any have been chosen, or if this is mere kite-flying. Given its political importance, I'd expect something will be done soon.
    The biggest issue with a graduate tax is how to deal with people who, for whatever reason don’t pay income tax in the UK, or who for whatever reason don’t graduate. Brexit helps this significantly as we will no longer have to give loans to EU citizens on the same terms.

    It can encourage behaviours such as emigration after graduation, dropout of those facing poor results, self-removal from the workforce due to family commitments etc. which we need to be discouraging. The loan amount, gaining interest, works better as a tool of persuasion to graduate and remain in the workforce.

    There’s also the issue of would a graduate tax be payable by older graduates who went to university under different systems? Most working journalists and MPs fall into this category...
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited October 2017
    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    Assuming this was a response to my suggestion, it wouldn't really cost anything, would it? Nobody would be paying any less on an annual basis because they would still be making repayments (at 9% of salary or whatever it is) and so the cash would still flow to the Treasury at the same rate. It's just you would be reducing the amount the Treasury might ultimately hope to recover (in decades time). This would only actually directly cost money for individuals who experienced significant pay rises later in their career, but then it could be argued that it would be compensated by the extra income tax that they would be generating as a result (the traditional argument for funding university education).

  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,038
    edited October 2017
    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, didn't you tip the evens on Boris yesterday?

    Edited extra bit: good news for Lando Norris, who may well be in F1 in the coming years:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41625172
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    Gove to FO
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,085
    alex. said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    Assuming this was a response to my suggestion, it wouldn't really cost anything, would it? Nobody would be paying any less on an annual basis because they would still be making repayments (at 9% of salary or whatever it is) and so the cash would still flow to the Treasury at the same rate. It's just you would be reducing the amount the Treasury might ultimately hope to recover (in decades time). This would only actually directly cost money for individuals who experienced significant pay rises later in their career, but then it could be argued that it would be compensated by the extra income tax that they would be generating as a result (the traditional argument for funding university education).
    Ah okay, slightly different to what I was thinking, so as you say it wouldn’t be an expense line item in the Budget but rather one of reduced future revenues. Opponents may call that can-kicking, as of course chancellors of both sides have always done.

    There’s still the issue of those who don’t pay UK income tax after graduation though.
  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    The political problem is that while many graduates will not earn enough to repay the debt, they still carry the debt, and this affects their voting behaviour. This should be relatively easy to fix by changing income-contingent loan repayments to some form of income-contingent graduate tax. Other solutions are possible (edit: see alex's post here) and we shall discover in five and a half weeks which if any have been chosen, or if this is mere kite-flying. Given its political importance, I'd expect something will be done soon.
    The biggest issue with a graduate tax is how to deal with people who, for whatever reason don’t pay income tax in the UK, or who for whatever reason don’t graduate. Brexit helps this significantly as we will no longer have to give loans to EU citizens on the same terms.

    It can encourage behaviours such as emigration after graduation, dropout of those facing poor results, self-removal from the workforce due to family commitments etc. which we need to be discouraging. The loan amount, gaining interest, works better as a tool of persuasion to graduate and remain in the workforce.

    There’s also the issue of would a graduate tax be payable by older graduates who went to university under different systems? Most working journalists and MPs fall into this category...
    It is not immediately clear to me that people dropping out is necessarily a bad thing (although it might be asked what they were doing there in the first place). People who emigrate to avoid tax would presumably emigrate to avoid loan repayments, so that's a wash.

    The current system stops people voting Conservative and therefore something must be done. The Chancellor may feel other considerations, valid or not, are secondary to that.
  • Options
    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,149
    Surely the big problem with ‘just’ writing off student debt is that it seems to be a panic measure, forced on the Cnagcellor for wholly political reasons, much as the increase to £9k was.
    Pthers have pointed out upthread about the associated problems and he whole question of funding students should be carefully thought through.

    Which might have done when grants were switched to loans but certainly doesn’t appear to have been done since!
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    The political problem is that while many graduates will not earn enough to repay the debt, they still carry the debt, and this affects their voting behaviour. This should be relatively easy to fix by changing income-contingent loan repayments to some form of income-contingent graduate tax. Other solutions are possible (edit: see alex's post here) and we shall discover in five and a half weeks which if any have been chosen, or if this is mere kite-flying. Given its political importance, I'd expect something will be done soon.
    The biggest issue with a graduate tax is how to deal with people who, for whatever reason don’t pay income tax in the UK, or who for whatever reason don’t graduate. Brexit helps this significantly as we will no longer have to give loans to EU citizens on the same terms.

    It can encourage behaviours such as emigration after graduation, dropout of those facing poor results, self-removal from the workforce due to family commitments etc. which we need to be discouraging. The loan amount, gaining interest, works better as a tool of persuasion to graduate and remain in the workforce.

    There’s also the issue of would a graduate tax be payable by older graduates who went to university under different systems? Most working journalists and MPs fall into this category...
    It is not immediately clear to me that people dropping out is necessarily a bad thing (although it might be asked what they were doing there in the first place). People who emigrate to avoid tax would presumably emigrate to avoid loan repayments, so that's a wash.

    The current system stops people voting Conservative and therefore something must be done. The Chancellor may feel other considerations, valid or not, are secondary to that.
    The current Conservatives stop people voting Conservative. Something must be done about them.
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited October 2017
    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    Assuming this was a response to my suggestion, it wouldn't really cost anything, would it? Nobody would be paying any less on an annual basis because they would still be making repayments (at 9% of salary or whatever it is) and so the cash would still flow to the Treasury at the same rate. It's just you would be reducing the amount the Treasury might ultimately hope to recover (in decades time). This would only actually directly cost money for individuals who experienced significant pay rises later in their career, but then it could be argued that it would be compensated by the extra income tax that they would be generating as a result (the traditional argument for funding university education).
    Ah okay, slightly different to what I was thinking, so as you say it wouldn’t be an expense line item in the Budget but rather one of reduced future revenues. Opponents may call that can-kicking, as of course chancellors of both sides have always done.

    Maybe, although the issue of the cancellation of future unpaid debt is a ticking timebomb anyway (even though its existence is often extolled as a non financial virtue of the system). If anything this could be presented as sound financial management - effectively they would just be prudently making proper provision for that debt (albeit actually writing it off) based on a current estimate of the value of that debt.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    A sensible Chancellor might say that when we leave the EU and no longer have to advance loans to every EU student (who have massive default rates), then the rates of interest can be lowered for both new and historic loans to British students, say to CPI+1% interest.
    Do you have any figures for EU default rates?

    All I've seen is that about 60% of EU have paid off their tuition fees in full by the end of their course.

    Given the governments loss of control over the student loan debate, a graduate tax seems the only way to cauterize the wound. Making UK tax globally payable by UK citizens would also be necessary.

    Finally, degree cost needs to be linked to quality of degree and future earning. Having a link between the amount a student repays and the amount the Uni gets would be a quick fix.

  • Options
    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Income-contingent loan repayments are a bad thing.

    But would they be a good idea in other areas? For instance, Jeremy Hunt is offering inducements to doctors to set up in seaside towns.After Brexit (and out of CAP) farmers will need protection from bad harvests. It may be that in these and other situations, a loan to be repaid only if some target or other is met might be better than just handing out cash as the prospect of repayment would encourage enterprise and allow the sums to be larger and more effective, at lower cost to the Treasury.
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    JonathanD said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    A sensible Chancellor might say that when we leave the EU and no longer have to advance loans to every EU student (who have massive default rates), then the rates of interest can be lowered for both new and historic loans to British students, say to CPI+1% interest.
    Do you have any figures for EU default rates?

    All I've seen is that about 60% of EU have paid off their tuition fees in full by the end of their course.

    Given the governments loss of control over the student loan debate, a graduate tax seems the only way to cauterize the wound. Making UK tax globally payable by UK citizens would also be necessary.

    Finally, degree cost needs to be linked to quality of degree and future earning. Having a link between the amount a student repays and the amount the Uni gets would be a quick fix.

    I don't see how that works. Universities can't be held responsible for financial decisions made by ex-students potentially decades after they've left the institutions. Just because a university degree might give the potential for a future boost in earnings, it doesn't follow that an ex-student will choose to take advantage of it.

  • Options

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, didn't you tip the evens on Boris yesterday?

    Edited extra bit: good news for Lando Norris, who may well be in F1 in the coming years:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41625172

    No. That were Pulpstar.
  • Options
    alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    alex. said:

    JonathanD said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    A sensible Chancellor might say that when we leave the EU and no longer have to advance loans to every EU student (who have massive default rates), then the rates of interest can be lowered for both new and historic loans to British students, say to CPI+1% interest.
    Do you have any figures for EU default rates?

    All I've seen is that about 60% of EU have paid off their tuition fees in full by the end of their course.

    Given the governments loss of control over the student loan debate, a graduate tax seems the only way to cauterize the wound. Making UK tax globally payable by UK citizens would also be necessary.

    Finally, degree cost needs to be linked to quality of degree and future earning. Having a link between the amount a student repays and the amount the Uni gets would be a quick fix.

    I don't see how that works. Universities can't be held responsible for financial decisions made by ex-students potentially decades after they've left the institutions. Just because a university degree might give the potential for a future boost in earnings, it doesn't follow that an ex-student will choose to take advantage of it.

    There is also the issue, it seems to me often overlooked, that a large chunk of many student loans relates to accommodation costs.

  • Options
    EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,956
    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,038
    Mr. Eagles, so this is a Pulpstar Versus Eagles matter :p
  • Options

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited October 2017

    Surely the big problem with ‘just’ writing off student debt is that it seems to be a panic measure, forced on the Cnagcellor for wholly political reasons, much as the increase to £9k was.
    Pthers have pointed out upthread about the associated problems and he whole question of funding students should be carefully thought through.

    Which might have done when grants were switched to loans but certainly doesn’t appear to have been done since!

    One of the biggest problems is creating new iniquities, and inventing a new tax that penalises those who have paid off their fees early, say by an inheritance windfall, and then get caught by a new graduate tax.

    I would suggest a negative interest rate, so the outstanding debt decreased by 3% per year, rather than increased by 6.2%.

    According to the Treasury Select Committee as many as 83% of these loans are never going to be fully paid off. Writing them down more swiftly is merely recognition that these debts are sub prime.

    In six years there is expected to be £160 billion of student debt:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4687451/mp-probe-taxpayers-student-loan-debt-bill/
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,821
    Good post. I fancy Hunt for Foreign Secretary or Chancellor.

    I have been honestly surprised at just how politically inept Hammond has been. He used to be seen as the "safe pair of hands" in any role.
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    It might slow down the flow of votes to Labour. If it is part of a larger strategy it could work. The big word in that last sentence being if.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,085
    edited October 2017
    JonathanD said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    A sensible Chancellor might say that when we leave the EU and no longer have to advance loans to every EU student (who have massive default rates), then the rates of interest can be lowered for both new and historic loans to British students, say to CPI+1% interest.
    Do you have any figures for EU default rates?

    All I've seen is that about 60% of EU have paid off their tuition fees in full by the end of their course.

    Given the governments loss of control over the student loan debate, a graduate tax seems the only way to cauterize the wound. Making UK tax globally payable by UK citizens would also be necessary.

    Finally, degree cost needs to be linked to quality of degree and future earning. Having a link between the amount a student repays and the amount the Uni gets would be a quick fix.

    There’s no immediate figures for repayments from EU students for the new style 9% loans, but given that they’re repaid through the UK income tax system or by voluntary repayments I don’t think it’s an unreasonable assumption that collecting them will be significantly more difficult than for UK students. The 60% figure was for the old loans, the new loans also incorporate living costs as well as tuition fees.

    I think the biggest issue is that a degree has been devalued so much that a large proportion of the new loans will never be paid back by the declining numbers of the middle classes.

    The more I think about it, the more I like the US two-tier system of red brick colleges and local community colleges. Those studying at the top universities pay massive fees if they can afford it, and almost nothing if they can’t, supported by many wealthy benefactors. The local community colleges are free for locals and a nominal cost for outsiders, supported by taxpayers where necessary.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,821

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    The Tories aren't going to win by trying to ape Labour. They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    That said, I would consider two things on student loans: (1) interest rate no higher than CPI (2) give students options on choosing the repayment rate from above £25k ranging from 4% to 9%, or making the 4-9% sliding scale up to earning £45k, and removing any penalties for repaying earlier.

    People like to be in control of their debts, to know they can pay them off and how/ when they choose.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 50,085

    Good post. I fancy Hunt for Foreign Secretary or Chancellor.

    I have been honestly surprised at just how politically inept Hammond has been. He used to be seen as the "safe pair of hands" in any role.

    Hunt is a good shout, but the biggest problem with moving him is filling his existing seat, especially over the winter.

    I’m reminded of the famous quote attributed to John Reid, on appointment by Blair to that ministry.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,821
    Sandpit said:

    Good post. I fancy Hunt for Foreign Secretary or Chancellor.

    I have been honestly surprised at just how politically inept Hammond has been. He used to be seen as the "safe pair of hands" in any role.

    Hunt is a good shout, but the biggest problem with moving him is filling his existing seat, especially over the winter.

    I’m reminded of the famous quote attributed to John Reid, on appointment by Blair to that ministry.
    I'd take a punt and promote some of the more junior talent into SoS, like Hinds, Raab or Brine.
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    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    It's pleasing to see the good sense of Ciudadanos starting to overhaul Podemos and their undeliverable promises. Hopefully as unemployment keeps falling, the trend will continue.
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    bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 21,934
    Student debt



    We're all Corbynites now.
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Sandpit said:


    There’s no immediate figures for repayments from EU students for the new style 9% loans, but given that they’re repaid through the UK income tax system or by voluntary repayments I don’t think it’s an unreasonable assumption that collecting them will be significantly more difficult than for UK students. The 60% figure was for the old loans, the new loans also incorporate living costs as well as tuition fees.

    I think the biggest issue is that a degree has been devalued so much that a large proportion of the new loans will never be paid back by the declining numbers of the middle classes.

    The more I think about it, the more I like the US two-tier system of red brick colleges and local community colleges. Those studying at the top universities pay massive fees if they can afford it, and almost nothing if they can’t, supported by many wealthy benefactors. The local community colleges are free for locals and a nominal cost for outsiders, supported by taxpayers where necessary.

    What is odd is the fact that many won't pay it back is advanced as a feature rather than a bug: Go to university because you'll get a good job, so it's definitely worth borrowing all this dosh, but don't worry about paying it back because you'll probably never get a good job, so you won't have to.

    Local colleges with 2 year degree courses definitely a good plan.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Student debt



    We're all Corbynites now.

    Shit ! The Tories have found the magic tree.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,038
    Mr. Royale, I agree.

    The Conservatives under May appear to be a redder shade of blue. Nobody yearns for Diet Pepsi. Muppets.
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    edited October 2017
    Reshuffles are all very well, but the problem remains Mrs May.

    She is an exceedingly poor politician. She may be brim full of ideas, she may be literate, numerate, literate and wise, but it's all to no avail. She always look artificial.

    When she tries to look determined, she gurns. When she tries to do sincerity, she exaggerates her facial expressions.

    Gordon had the same problem, and it often tripped up Ed Milliband.

    Jezza is thick , one-faceted, and can't think on his feet, but he can act. Being PM requires you to be able to act or you to believe in what you are saying. Jezza fits on both, so his stupidity doesn't matter. Cameron and Blair could act and were bright, Their judgement eventually tripped them up, but they got a hearing.

    That's why Hollywood actors pronouncing on subjects they only vaguely understand is effective. Someone whose ability extends to being able to pretend to be somebody else is thus listened to.

    Sorry, Mrs May, stick to being a spear carrier.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, didn't you tip the evens on Boris yesterday?

    Edited extra bit: good news for Lando Norris, who may well be in F1 in the coming years:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41625172

    No. That were Pulpstar.
    Is it International Talk Like A Tyke day already?
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,438
    Convert student debt to a graduate tax. It is in practice anyway.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,244

    Good post. I fancy Hunt for Foreign Secretary or Chancellor.

    I have been honestly surprised at just how politically inept Hammond has been. He used to be seen as the "safe pair of hands" in any role.

    It says it all about the mess the Tories are in that Hammond is seen as the one who is politically inept, rather than:

    May, whose judgement has repeatedly been exposed as dire
    Fox, who seems more interested in glorifying his role and specifying cruisers for himself than doing his job
    Johnson, who repeatedly embarrasses himself and his country with not so smart remarks and newspaper columns

    Hammond for all his other faults at least gives some sense that he understands the scale of the predicament we are in.
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    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    It might slow down the flow of votes to Labour. If it is part of a larger strategy it could work. The big word in that last sentence being if.

    The Tories are never going to out-Labour Labour, not least because they do not believe in what Labour believes in. Confirming there is a magic money tree - whether it be for a No Deal Brexit, more public housing or to write-off student debt - is an absolute gift to Labour. Once the argument moves to public spending and where to allocate the funds, Labour wins.

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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193
    Jonathan said:

    Gove to FO

    A prediction - or just an instruction?

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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,149

    Surely the big problem with ‘just’ writing off student debt is that it seems to be a panic measure, forced on the Cnagcellor for wholly political reasons, much as the increase to £9k was.
    Pthers have pointed out upthread about the associated problems and he whole question of funding students should be carefully thought through.

    Which might have done when grants were switched to loans but certainly doesn’t appear to have been done since!

    One of the biggest problems is creating new iniquities, and inventing a new tax that penalises those who have paid off their fees early, say by an inheritance windfall, and then get caught by a new graduate tax.

    I would suggest a negative interest rate, so the outstanding debt decreased by 3% per year, rather than increased by 6.2%.

    According to the Treasury Select Committee as many as 83% of these loans are never going to be fully paid off. Writing them down more swiftly is merely recognition that these debts are sub prime.

    In six years there is expected to be £160 billion of student debt:

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4687451/mp-probe-taxpayers-student-loan-debt-bill/
    I have (so far) two graduate greandchildren. Both have had a year abroad, one working (although not well paid) the other mainly travelling. One has worked as a supply teacher, sometimes, becausre of the nature of the work, spasmodically and now, because funding is available for their particular course hoping to go back to Uni to do a post-grad degree. The other, once the travelling was finished undertook a teacher training course and is now employed as a primary school teacher, and has every intention of continuing being so.

    How do you work out an equitable repayment scheme?
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    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, didn't you tip the evens on Boris yesterday?

    Edited extra bit: good news for Lando Norris, who may well be in F1 in the coming years:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41625172

    No. That were Pulpstar.
    Is it International Talk Like A Tyke day already?
    A testament to my working class Northerner roots.

    Or more likely an auto-correct fail.
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    The cancellation of student debts is being proposed by David Davis.

    Further proof it is a bad idea.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,342
    Sandpit said:

    JonathanD said:

    Sandpit said:

    alex. said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    Maybe there's some sort of middle ground here. A proportion of the loan could be cancelled contingent on how much had been paid to date. Given that all loans are cancelled after c. 30 years, the outstanding loan amount could be reviewed at five yearly intervals. If you had borrowed, say, 30k and paid off none after 5 years, then 5k would be written off.

    It wouldn't cost really very much, just crystallising early recognition of bad debt.
    It’s not going to cost £100bn up front to cancel existing loans, but it’s still going to be several billion a year which needs to come from somewhere though.

    A sensible Chancellor might say that when we leave the EU and no longer have to advance loans to every EU student (who have massive default rates), then the rates of interest can be lowered for both new and historic loans to British students, say to CPI+1% interest.
    Do you have any figures for EU default rates?

    All I've seen is that about 60% of EU have paid off their tuition fees in full by the end of their course.

    Given the governments loss of control over the student loan debate, a graduate tax seems the only way to cauterize the wound. Making UK tax globally payable by UK citizens would also be necessary.

    Finally, degree cost needs to be linked to quality of degree and future earning. Having a link between the amount a student repays and the amount the Uni gets would be a quick fix.

    There’s no immediate figures for repayments from EU students for the new style 9% loans, but given that they’re repaid through the UK income tax system or by voluntary repayments I don’t think it’s an unreasonable assumption that collecting them will be significantly more difficult than for UK students. The 60% figure was for the old loans, the new loans also incorporate living costs as well as tuition fees.

    Wrong - student loans have always included living costs since they were introduced in 1992. The 9% repayment system has been in place since 1998.


    Source: have a student loan from 2001 (which I should be finally paying off next month :) )
  • Options
    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    It might slow down the flow of votes to Labour. If it is part of a larger strategy it could work. The big word in that last sentence being if.

    The Tories are never going to out-Labour Labour, not least because they do not believe in what Labour believes in. Confirming there is a magic money tree - whether it be for a No Deal Brexit, more public housing or to write-off student debt - is an absolute gift to Labour. Once the argument moves to public spending and where to allocate the funds, Labour wins.

    Exactly. The Tories need to ditch austerity and enough of its advocates to make it look sincere. And they could do well to oppose Brexit too. If they are quick they could still pull it off. But Labour looks a lot more in tune with the public mood right now.
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    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,193

    Good morning, everyone.

    Mr. Eagles, didn't you tip the evens on Boris yesterday?

    Edited extra bit: good news for Lando Norris, who may well be in F1 in the coming years:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/41625172

    No. That were Pulpstar.
    Is it International Talk Like A Tyke day already?
    A testament to my working class Northerner roots.

    Or more likely an auto-correct fail.
    Bugger - wud a bin reet gradely!
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    edited October 2017
    I imagine Boris Johnson will stay as Foreign Secretary as long as May is there as she cannot move him without risking a no confidence vote. Hunt would be better used as party chairman, replacing Patrick Mcloughlin, where he has the management skills and business background to give CCHQ the complete overhaul it urgently needs

    In the event of Davis taking over in the next few months as party leader I think Rudd would be a good bet as Foreign Secretary, pre Brexit completion I think the MPs would engineer a Davis v Rudd runoff to be sent to the membership which I think Davis would win but FS would be Rudd's reward for a decent campaign.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    It cannot be considered a reshuffle if Mrs May is still there after it.
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,125
    As you know the C's are taking a harder line against Catalonia than PP at the moment. You omitted to mention that PSOE and Podemos were also down in both of the most recent polls.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Spanish_general_election
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    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,352
    edited October 2017
    Mr Eagles,

    A Yorkshireman goes to an undertaker to order a headstone for his recently deceased wife.

    "She were a religious woman," he said. "I'd like to say ''Lord, she were thine.'

    Two days later the man returns to see the inscription saying ...'Lord, she were thin.'"
    "You've missed out the 'e' " he says.

    The stone mason apologies. The next day the Yorkshireman returns to find the inscription saying ...

    'Ee, Lord, she were thin.'
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    edited October 2017

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    It might slow down the flow of votes to Labour. If it is part of a larger strategy it could work. The big word in that last sentence being if.

    The Tories are never going to out-Labour Labour, not least because they do not believe in what Labour believes in. Confirming there is a magic money tree - whether it be for a No Deal Brexit, more public housing or to write-off student debt - is an absolute gift to Labour. Once the argument moves to public spending and where to allocate the funds, Labour wins.

    No, the Tories need to neutralise Corbyn's anti austerity campaign as much as they can just as he neutralised Brexit. They will of course never out spend Labour and they are not proposing to (they will still keep tuition fees unlike Corbyn) but neutralising those issues would then allow them to go hard on Corbyn's tax rising plans which they could not do last time because of the now dropped dementia tax

    It was of course only once Major had dropped Thatcher's unpopular poll tax and neutralised Kinnock's ammunition on that and promised a bit more money for the NHS etc that he could then hammer Kinnock on Labour's tax rise plans in the 1992 election campaign.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,590
    Boris at evens is a great hedge. If he's still there you collect, if not, you (together with the country) wins.
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    felix said:

    As you know the C's are taking a harder line against Catalonia than PP at the moment. You omitted to mention that PSOE and Podemos were also down in both of the most recent polls.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Opinion_polling_for_the_next_Spanish_general_election

    I didn't omit, I didn't have space. The key thing is that PSOE and C's have finally got PP to accept the constitutional reforms that would have prevented this whole foul-up in the first place. C's are rooted in Catalonia, having been founded there. They feel this the most. It's interesting to see support for them and ERC both going up.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    Essexit said:

    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.

    I also don't see how Cameron can be Foreign Secretary when he is neither in the Commons or the Lords now?
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044
    edited October 2017
    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    It'd be worth about 4 grand to me, though its been sold off already I think so not sure how it would work. I certainly wouldn't want the remainder of my loan to be replaced by a graduate tax !
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    HYUFD said:

    Essexit said:

    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.

    I also don't see how Cameron can be Foreign Secretary when he is neither in the Commons or the Lords now?
    Not like there’s recent precedent for something like that.

    Oh wait.
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    HYUFD said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    It might slow down the flow of votes to Labour. If it is part of a larger strategy it could work. The big word in that last sentence being if.

    The Tories are never going to out-Labour Labour, not least because they do not believe in what Labour believes in. Confirming there is a magic money tree - whether it be for a No Deal Brexit, more public housing or to write-off student debt - is an absolute gift to Labour. Once the argument moves to public spending and where to allocate the funds, Labour wins.

    No, the Tories need to neutralise Corbyn's anti austerity campaign as much as they can just as he neutralised Brexit. They will of course never out spend Labour and they are not proposing to (they will still keep tuition fees unlike Corbyn) but neutralising those issues would then allow them to go hard on Corbyn's tax rising plans which they could not do last time because of the now dropped dementia tax

    It was of course only once Major had dropped Thatcher's unpopular poll tax and neutralised Kinnock's ammunition on that and promised a bit more money for the NHS etc that he could then hammer Kinnock on Labour's tax rise plans in the 1992 election campaign.

    Good luck with that!

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    It might slow down the flow of votes to Labour. If it is part of a larger strategy it could work. The big word in that last sentence being if.

    The Tories are never going to out-Labour Labour, not least because they do not believe in what Labour believes in. Confirming there is a magic money tree - whether it be for a No Deal Brexit, more public housing or to write-off student debt - is an absolute gift to Labour. Once the argument moves to public spending and where to allocate the funds, Labour wins.

    Exactly. The Tories need to ditch austerity and enough of its advocates to make it look sincere. And they could do well to oppose Brexit too. If they are quick they could still pull it off. But Labour looks a lot more in tune with the public mood right now.
    Given 80% of Tory voters back Brexit it would be political suicide for the party to ditch it and give a gift to UKIP, only Labour could ever ditch Brexit and that is only foreseeable if there is a Labour minority government reliant on the LDs for a majority after the next general election. Even then staying in the single market is more likely than full return to the EU
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,044
    On topic, I've backed Boris in this market :>
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290

    HYUFD said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    It might slow down the flow of votes to Labour. If it is part of a larger strategy it could work. The big word in that last sentence being if.

    The Tories are never going to out-Labour Labour, not least because they do not believe in what Labour believes in. Confirming there is a magic money tree - whether it be for a No Deal Brexit, more public housing or to write-off student debt - is an absolute gift to Labour. Once the argument moves to public spending and where to allocate the funds, Labour wins.

    No, the Tories need to neutralise Corbyn's anti austerity campaign as much as they can just as he neutralised Brexit. They will of course never out spend Labour and they are not proposing to (they will still keep tuition fees unlike Corbyn) but neutralising those issues would then allow them to go hard on Corbyn's tax rising plans which they could not do last time because of the now dropped dementia tax

    It was of course only once Major had dropped Thatcher's unpopular poll tax and neutralised Kinnock's ammunition on that and promised a bit more money for the NHS etc that he could then hammer Kinnock on Labour's tax rise plans in the 1992 election campaign.

    Good luck with that!

    It is the only way they will win a 4th term, in Crosby's words they need to 'get the barnacles off the boat' ie the dementia tax, the most unpopular aspects of austerity and interest rates on student loans etc then hammer Labour on its tax rise plans.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    The key to this market is working out the price for Boris Johnson leaving the role. This could happen in one of four ways.

    1) He jumps.
    2) He is pushed.
    3) Someone else (e.g. Philip Hammond) jumps or is pushed and he is moved into that role.
    4) Theresa May is replaced and he occupies a different role in the new government.

    There are only a few weeks to go before the end of the year but those weeks look likely to be eventful. The Conservatives look unstable at present. Evens looks about right to me for the sum of these possibilities.

    If he goes, he will be replaced by a heavyweight. So most of the options given can be scored out on that basis. Michael Gove, Damian Green and perhaps Sajid Javid look fair value. I'd choose the latter. He's an experienced Cabinet minister, not a headbanger and would represent a fresh start with EU opposite numbers, confounding many Brussels stereotypes about the UK. But would the headbangers accept him?

    Me, I'm not betting on this, mind.
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Sandpit said:

    tlg86 said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    Sounds about right given I've just paid off my loan.

    In reality, I bet the story is nonsense.
    The political problem is that while many graduates will not earn enough to repay the debt, they still carry the debt, and this affects their voting behaviour. This should be relatively easy to fix by changing income-contingent loan repayments to some form of income-contingent graduate tax. Other solutions are possible (edit: see alex's post here) and we shall discover in five and a half weeks which if any have been chosen, or if this is mere kite-flying. Given its political importance, I'd expect something will be done soon.
    The biggest issue with a graduate tax is how to deal with people who, for whatever reason don’t pay income tax in the UK, or who for whatever reason don’t graduate. Brexit helps this significantly as we will no longer have to give loans to EU citizens on the same terms.

    It can encourage behaviours such as emigration after graduation, dropout of those facing poor results, self-removal from the workforce due to family commitments etc. which we need to be discouraging. The loan amount, gaining interest, works better as a tool of persuasion to graduate and remain in the workforce.

    There’s also the issue of would a graduate tax be payable by older graduates who went to university under different systems? Most working journalists and MPs fall into this category...
    It is not immediately clear to me that people dropping out is necessarily a bad thing (although it might be asked what they were doing there in the first place). People who emigrate to avoid tax would presumably emigrate to avoid loan repayments, so that's a wash.

    The current system stops people voting Conservative and therefore something must be done. The Chancellor may feel other considerations, valid or not, are secondary to that.
    The current Conservatives stop people voting Conservative. Something must be done about them.
    Incorrect, 11.3m voted for them in 2015 13.6 in 2017. I'm not one of them btw.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    edited October 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Essexit said:

    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.

    I also don't see how Cameron can be Foreign Secretary when he is neither in the Commons or the Lords now?
    Not like there’s recent precedent for something like that.

    Oh wait.
    Boris returned to the Commons at the 2015 general election, I see no evidence Cameron has any desire too, he is quite happy leading the life of a country squire in Oxfordshire and working with his national citizenship service and charity work

    Home was a former PM who became Foreign Secretary but he was still MP for Kinross and Western Perthshire at the time
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    Dura_AceDura_Ace Posts: 13,104

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    edited October 2017
    John McDonnell confirms Labour would vote against no deal with the EU
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Corbyn also backs Brexit and May tried fiscal responsibility last time, probably too much, she should have eased back a little on the austerity rhetoric and gone harder on tax cuts and Labour's tax rise plans rather than proposing the disastrous dementia tax
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Corbyn also backs Brexit and May tried fiscal responsibility last time, probably too much, she should have eased back a little on the austerity rhetoric and gone harder on tax cuts and Labour's tax rise plans rather than proposing the disastrous dementia tax
    Labour don't need to claim fiscal responsibility. From their viewpoint it's enough for the Conservatives to lose the right to make that claim.
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Not sure what you mean by that. I don't see what money they've spent on Brexit.
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    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Essexit said:

    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.

    I also don't see how Cameron can be Foreign Secretary when he is neither in the Commons or the Lords now?
    Not like there’s recent precedent for something like that.

    Oh wait.
    Boris returned to the Commons at the 2015 general election, I see no evidence Cameron has any desire too, he is quite happy leading the life of a country squire in Oxfordshire and working with his national citizenship service and charity work

    Home was a former PM who became Foreign Secretary but he was still MP for Kinross and Western Perthshire at the time
    I was thinking of Peter Mandelson, neither an MP nor a peer when he was brought into the cabinet by Gordon Brown in 2008, who then ennobled Mandy.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Essexit said:

    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.

    I also don't see how Cameron can be Foreign Secretary when he is neither in the Commons or the Lords now?
    Not like there’s recent precedent for something like that.

    Oh wait.
    Boris returned to the Commons at the 2015 general election, I see no evidence Cameron has any desire too, he is quite happy leading the life of a country squire in Oxfordshire and working with his national citizenship service and charity work

    Home was a former PM who became Foreign Secretary but he was still MP for Kinross and Western Perthshire at the time
    I was thinking of Peter Mandelson, neither an MP nor a peer when he was brought into the cabinet by Gordon Brown in 2008, who then ennobled Mandy.
    It would take a peerage for Dave then, agreed
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Essexit said:

    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.

    I also don't see how Cameron can be Foreign Secretary when he is neither in the Commons or the Lords now?
    Not like there’s recent precedent for something like that.

    Oh wait.
    Boris returned to the Commons at the 2015 general election, I see no evidence Cameron has any desire too, he is quite happy leading the life of a country squire in Oxfordshire and working with his national citizenship service and charity work

    Home was a former PM who became Foreign Secretary but he was still MP for Kinross and Western Perthshire at the time
    I was thinking of Peter Mandelson, neither an MP nor a peer when he was brought into the cabinet by Gordon Brown in 2008, who then ennobled Mandy.
    Yep, Shami Chakrabarti is in the Shadow Cabinet, she wasn't elected by anybody.
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,960
    HYUFD said:

    John McDonnell confirms Labour would vote against no deal with the EU

    Another fool who doesn't understand how article 50 works.
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    RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    HYUFD said:

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    It won't gain the Tories a single vote, but it will significantly weaken their attacks on Labour. They really don't know what they're doing, do they?

    It might slow down the flow of votes to Labour. If it is part of a larger strategy it could work. The big word in that last sentence being if.

    The Tories are never going to out-Labour Labour, not least because they do not believe in what Labour believes in. Confirming there is a magic money tree - whether it be for a No Deal Brexit, more public housing or to write-off student debt - is an absolute gift to Labour. Once the argument moves to public spending and where to allocate the funds, Labour wins.

    Exactly. The Tories need to ditch austerity and enough of its advocates to make it look sincere. And they could do well to oppose Brexit too. If they are quick they could still pull it off. But Labour looks a lot more in tune with the public mood right now.
    Given 80% of Tory voters back Brexit it would be political suicide for the party to ditch it and give a gift to UKIP, only Labour could ever ditch Brexit and that is only foreseeable if there is a Labour minority government reliant on the LDs for a majority after the next general election. Even then staying in the single market is more likely than full return to the EU
    But not all of that 80% are that fussed about it.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    edited October 2017

    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Corbyn also backs Brexit and May tried fiscal responsibility last time, probably too much, she should have eased back a little on the austerity rhetoric and gone harder on tax cuts and Labour's tax rise plans rather than proposing the disastrous dementia tax
    Labour don't need to claim fiscal responsibility. From their viewpoint it's enough for the Conservatives to lose the right to make that claim.
    Why do you say that? It was 17 million people who voted for Brexit which the Tories are now implementing and which the Tory PM of the time opposed and which even Corbyn now supports so there are no grounds for Corbyn to attack the Tories on Brexit, the best he could do is neutralise it. If he starts saying the Tories should pay anything the EU wants for a deal he will also be digging a hole for himself with the voters.

    The Tories also did not win last time on fiscal responsibility, ie tax rises and austerity, so there is no point making it the key focus of the campaign next time, attacking Labour's income and inheritance tax rises would be far more sensible
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,342

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Not sure what you mean by that. I don't see what money they've spent on Brexit.
    The wilful economic damage caused by their insistence on leaving the single market.
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    John McDonnel was very good on Marr. I do not believe he believes a word of what he's saying.
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,451
    edited October 2017
    An interesting papers review on Marr. They had the guy who chairs Leave means Leave who parroted the usual "it'll be fine" mantra. Craig Oliver was also on. He quoted the Chair of Sainsburys stating supply problems would make food prices soar, and the unnamed chair of a ports group saying no deal means "20 square kilometres" of lorry parks at every port. "No no no we need to be optimistic" says leave loon.

    "But these are the people who have to administer the practicalities of a no deal Brexit, how can you just dismiss them"? Exactly.

    No deal TWO works on paper with 10 years to prepare. In reality it doesn't work, we aren't prepared not do we have time to be prepared. That simple reality is increasingly becoming visible, I expect the government will be forced to release it's studies into no deal (entitled "we're so fucked"), and that will change the dynamic against the likes of BoZo. Bear that in mind before parting with money - Boris moving up relies on the Tory high command believing in fairies
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,149

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Not sure what you mean by that. I don't see what money they've spent on Brexit.
    Not even planning for it; that’s part of the problem.
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    VerulamiusVerulamius Posts: 1,438
    Another example is Andrew Adonis (Lord Adonis) who became DfT Secretary of State without being elected.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Not sure what you mean by that. I don't see what money they've spent on Brexit.
    The wilful economic damage caused by their insistence on leaving the single market.
    Something also backed by Corbyn you mean? Only the LDs and SNP want to stay in the single market, both the Tories and Corbyn Labour do not
  • Options

    John McDonnel was very good on Marr. I do not believe he believes a word of what he's saying.

    Very good? Really? I thought he seemed a bit rattled and he declined to answer most of the questions.
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    not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,342
    HYUFD said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Not sure what you mean by that. I don't see what money they've spent on Brexit.
    The wilful economic damage caused by their insistence on leaving the single market.
    Something also backed by Corbyn you mean? Only the LDs and SNP want to stay in the single market, both the Tories and Corbyn Labour do not
    What Corbyn supports is irrelevant to the point here. You can’t claim to be fiscal responsibility when pursuing the economic insanity of hard brexit.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    edited October 2017
    Hillary Clinton on Marr claims potential Russian interference in the UK election and that no deal with the EU would be bad for Britain, would lead to less access for goods and services and see some businesses moving to the EU.

    She also says little hope for a UK trade deal with Trump, in her words 'making a trade deal with someone who does not believe in trade.'

    Hillary also says the Leave campaign exported some of their slogans to the Trump campaign which she calls 'false stories' and not linked to facts and evidence and links Farage to the Trump campaign.

    She also campaigns Trump's bad body language with women like Merkel he is wary of with holding the hand of May a woman he is more amenable to.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380

    The key to this market is working out the price for Boris Johnson leaving the role. This could happen in one of four ways.

    1) He jumps.
    2) He is pushed.
    3) Someone else (e.g. Philip Hammond) jumps or is pushed and he is moved into that role.
    4) Theresa May is replaced and he occupies a different role in the new government.

    There are only a few weeks to go before the end of the year but those weeks look likely to be eventful. The Conservatives look unstable at present. Evens looks about right to me for the sum of these possibilities.

    If he goes, he will be replaced by a heavyweight. So most of the options given can be scored out on that basis. Michael Gove, Damian Green and perhaps Sajid Javid look fair value. I'd choose the latter. He's an experienced Cabinet minister, not a headbanger and would represent a fresh start with EU opposite numbers, confounding many Brussels stereotypes about the UK. But would the headbangers accept him?

    Me, I'm not betting on this, mind.

    This analysis looks right to me, which makes 8-1 for Boris value - he might well go, but do we really know that a reshuffle is imminent? There is a case against it (it would be portrayed as TM's last roll of the dice) and May's record is not one of swift, decisive action. Like Alasatir I think it works out at about 1-1, not 8-1.

    But things are so unstable that I'm not betting on it either.

    On tuition fees, the obvious simple remedy would be to lower the outrageous interest rate. Presumably the Student Loan Company would need to be compensated for that (?), but it would look fair and be simple to accomplsh.

    That said, I think the prospect of getting lots of votes from it is small - like Labour spending more money on defence, you can get some polite acknowledgements that you're not as bad as they thought, but most of the people involved are too entrenched in thinking you're basically rubbish. The Tories have a cultural problem in addressing younger people - unhappiness over tuiton fees is an expression of it but not the main issue.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,244

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Essexit said:

    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.

    I also don't see how Cameron can be Foreign Secretary when he is neither in the Commons or the Lords now?
    Not like there’s recent precedent for something like that.

    Oh wait.
    Boris returned to the Commons at the 2015 general election, I see no evidence Cameron has any desire too, he is quite happy leading the life of a country squire in Oxfordshire and working with his national citizenship service and charity work

    Home was a former PM who became Foreign Secretary but he was still MP for Kinross and Western Perthshire at the time
    I was thinking of Peter Mandelson, neither an MP nor a peer when he was brought into the cabinet by Gordon Brown in 2008, who then ennobled Mandy.
    Yep, Shami Chakrabarti is in the Shadow Cabinet, she wasn't elected by anybody.
    There are always unelected Lords in the Cabinet/Shadow Cabinet.

    Your point is? Ah, there isn't one.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    Mortimer said:

    HYUFD said:

    John McDonnell confirms Labour would vote against no deal with the EU

    Another fool who doesn't understand how article 50 works.
    Exactly, Labour already having voted for article 50
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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,561

    The BBC says the Sunday Times reports the budget may include cancellation of student loans. If so, there will need to be some industrial strength reverse ferreting from Tories who warned it would cost elebenty squillion pounds when Jeremy Corbyn mentioned the possibility.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-41625390

    I just don't see how we could possibly afford that. But a pretty much permanent freeze on the level of loans and a much more generous interest rate and repayment regime would be possible. The challenge then would be to ensure that University level education remains adequately funded going forward, the challenge the fees were supposed to address in the first place.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,290
    edited October 2017
    Hillary says she will not run again for President.

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    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,561
    Metatron said:

    Find it very odd that Priti Patel the Foreign Aid secretary (and a brexiteer) is 16/1 whilst her deputy Rory Stewart is 10/1.

    Something to do with talent maybe?
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Dura_Ace said:

    They need to win the battle of ideas, and show their way is the best way for young people to own their own homes, get decent jobs and have a prosperous future.

    The days when the tories could sell themselves as the party of a prosperous future are now behind us. It's a laughable proposition while they are willfully damaging the country's economy just because some people are scared the European Court will ban Union Jack underpants.

    Their only hope now is to outspend Corbyn.
    When the Conservatives chose to spend vast sums on Brexit, they forfeited any claim to fiscal responsibility. Quite how they retrieve the position is hard to see.
    Not sure what you mean by that. I don't see what money they've spent on Brexit.
    The wilful economic damage caused by their insistence on leaving the single market.
    You state a hypothetical situation as fact. Their insistence is based on what the electorate (remember them?) instructed them to do.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,060

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Essexit said:

    TSE, as a hardcore Leaver I agree that Cameron would be a good to great Foreign Secretary. I also agree that it won't happen.

    I also don't see how Cameron can be Foreign Secretary when he is neither in the Commons or the Lords now?
    Not like there’s recent precedent for something like that.

    Oh wait.
    Boris returned to the Commons at the 2015 general election, I see no evidence Cameron has any desire too, he is quite happy leading the life of a country squire in Oxfordshire and working with his national citizenship service and charity work

    Home was a former PM who became Foreign Secretary but he was still MP for Kinross and Western Perthshire at the time
    I was thinking of Peter Mandelson, neither an MP nor a peer when he was brought into the cabinet by Gordon Brown in 2008, who then ennobled Mandy.
    Yep, Shami Chakrabarti is in the Shadow Cabinet, she wasn't elected by anybody.
    There are always unelected Lords in the Cabinet/Shadow Cabinet.

    Your point is? Ah, there isn't one.
    Leader of the H of Lords is one of them for a start.
This discussion has been closed.