UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
Yes, but if the alternative is the extinguishing of independent British democracy, the ability to meaningfully fire those who rule us, just about any alternative is better.
I am frankly aghast at the depth to which we have been entangled without ever having voted so to do ( I ignore witterings about ”it was known in 1973 Ted Heath told us” I was not even ten and nobody bothered asking me since. Anyway it’s as plain as a pikestaff we are now dealing with a different animal).
It could have been easy, but the EU are determined to play silly buggers pour desencourager les autres, so hard it might be. So be it. If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine. The alternative is a bureaucracy with democratic window dressing.
I am about 70% confident that we will end up as a Norway style client of the EU, where we keep part of our benefits, pay for them as now, are bound by the rules, but no longer have the influence we had as participating members. It might be billed as a temporary arrangement, but it won't be. It isn't a good arrangement, but it is the probable one, on the assumption that the absence of a settlement would drive a push to get something sorted. Any such arrangement will be on the EU's terms and if the choice is Norway or full membership and slinking back to full membership would be embarrassing.
If you think you have any influence over UK HMG you're deluded our democratic process is not fit for purpose leaving the vast majority with no say who governs them
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
Just like any constituent in this country cannot fire anyone other than his/her MP and have to accept what a Minister / Bureaucrat does. Of course, the sum of all the constituents can change a government.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
I can see that happening as well. It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be: Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?" ... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
I wrote this piece last year, partly in jest, but one of my Leave supporting friends is convinced that it is going to come true in the hardest of hard Brexits.
The Brexiteers, Juncker’s fifth columnists?
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
That would cost a higher rate taxpayer about £3k per annum, or most lower rate taxpayer about £1,500.
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
I'm looking forward to our 10 year recession. It will toughen us all up -especially if we can squeeze in a small war - and put a stop to all that craft beer drinking hipster nonsense.
Mr. Johnno, it's one of the reasons I don't think the line about waiting 10 years then leaving washes.
Mr. Eagles, in the short-term, you may be right.
But what next? A settlement must be had, one way or another. If it's similar to what we have now, that sceptical movement could enjoy a resurgence.
I fear the shit show Brexit of Richard or Peter North where he was looking forward to a ten year hard Brexit only sees us rejoin the EU and fully integrate, with a £3 trillion exit fee in future, and because we'd sign up to get out of the hard Brexit shit show.
I can see that happening as well. It's not something I'd look forward to, but the botch-job that Brexit is turning into makes it a real possibility. For all the distrust people have for integration with Europe, if the equation seems to be: Outside EU = Chaos and loss of living standards; Inside EU = "It wasn't so bad, really, was it?" ... well, for all the high talk about things like sovereignty, if it does turn out to fuck things up for people in day-to-day life and provide financial hardship, people do tend to vote with their wallets.
Last year's referendum doesn't invalidate that - the LEAVE side managed to muddy the water enough on the economic side and disruption side of the argument to make them seem to cancel out, and if Brexit had been to a Single Market status, or if a competent and good deal had been struck, they'd have been right.
If it turns into a clusterfuck, opinions change. I could genuinely see us reapplying for readmission in 5-10 years and swallowing worse conditions to get in, and if we ended up in the Eurozone, we ain't ever getting out.
I wrote this piece last year, partly in jest, but one of my Leave supporting friends is convinced that it is going to come true in the hardest of hard Brexits.
The Brexiteers, Juncker’s fifth columnists?
How the Leavers may have ultimately signed the United Kingdom up for the single currency, the Schengen agreement, an EU Army, and a United States of Europe.
Keep on dreaming. Just like the Euro will explode. In the last 16 years, it is the Euro which has strengthened and Sterling fallen off the cliff.
Remember, at the Euro's birth: £1 = €1.40
I never said the Euro would explode, I just said countries not in the Eurozone eg Sweden and Denmark and much of Eastern Europe may leave the EU to join EFTA if the choice becomes stay in the EU and join the Euro or leave
I'm looking forward to our 10 year recession. It will toughen us all up -especially if we can squeeze in a small war - and put a stop to all that craft beer drinking hipster nonsense.
UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
That would cost a higher rate taxpayer about £3k per annum, or most lower rate taxpayer about £1,500.
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
Though the fact McDonnell has welcomed the report suggests it is not completely impossible a Corbyn government could implement it
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
You can elect MEPs with the power to sack her and veto any deals she negotiates, and a national government which defines her negotiating mandates. At least parliament has a mandated role in trade deals, which the UK government wants to deny us post-Brexit.
A pure Westminster system might provide good theatrics, but it doesn't give individual voters any more inherent power over decisions.
I do not accept I am part of a European demos for starters.
So the Parliament sacks her. I can’t fire those who nominate to replace her.
Moreover in the Tower of Babel that would be a US of E there would be no common media to hold politicians to account, no real live functioning electoral debate (what if the Spitzenkandidaten are from Bulgaria, France, and Finland how the hell do they meaningfully debate? What is “dementia tax” in Latvian and does it convey the same nuance as the Dutch translation?).
What if I don’t want Roman Law applied here and we are outvoted ( “yeah habeaus corpus has so had its day, it’s so well Anglo Saxon, so medieval, time for something more “modern and communautaire”)? QMV for driving on the right? “Sod the casualty rate in four countries it’s all about conformity to the Project”.
I may exaggerate a tad but democracy as we have known it and had handed down to us will die. It’s all coming eventually if we don’t get out. It will be Austria Hungary for our times.
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
You can elect MEPs with the power to sack her and veto any deals she negotiates, and a national government which defines her negotiating mandates. At least parliament has a mandated role in trade deals, which the UK government wants to deny us post-Brexit.
A pure Westminster system might provide good theatrics, but it doesn't give individual voters any more inherent power over decisions.
I do not accept I am part of a European demos for starters.
So the Parliament sacks her. I can’t fire those who nominate to replace her.
Moreover in the Tower of Babel that would be a US of E there would be no common media to hold politicians to account, no real live functioning electoral debate (what if the Spitzenkandidaten are from Bulgaria, France, and Finland how the hell do they meaningfully debate? What is “dementia tax” in Latvian and does it convey the same nuance as the Dutch translation?).
What if I don’t want Roman Law applied here and we are outvoted ( “yeah habeaus corpus has so had its day, it’s so well Anglo Saxon, so medieval, time for something more “modern and communautaire”)? QMV for driving on the right? “Sod the casualty rate in four countries it’s all about conformity to the Project”.
I may exaggerate a tad but democracy as we have known it and had handed down to us will die. It’s all coming eventually if we don’t get out. It will be Austria Hungary for our times.
You should expand you're reading beyond the daily mail
UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
That would cost a higher rate taxpayer about £3k per annum, or most lower rate taxpayer about £1,500.
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
Though the fact McDonnell has welcomed the report suggests it is not completely impossible a Corbyn government could implement it
UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
That would cost a higher rate taxpayer about £3k per annum, or most lower rate taxpayer about £1,500.
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
Though the fact McDonnell has welcomed the report suggests it is not completely impossible a Corbyn government could implement it
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
You can elect MEPs with the power to sack her and veto any deals she negotiates, and a national government which defines her negotiating mandates. At least parliament has a mandated role in trade deals, which the UK government wants to deny us post-Brexit.
A pure Westminster system might provide good theatrics, but it doesn't give individual voters any more inherent power over decisions.
I do not accept I am part of a European demos for starters.
So the Parliament sacks her. I can’t fire those who nominate to replace her.
Moreover in the Tower of Babel that would be a US of E there would be no common media to hold politicians to account, no real live functioning electoral debate (what if the Spitzenkandidaten are from Bulgaria, France, and Finland how the hell do they meaningfully debate? What is “dementia tax” in Latvian and does it convey the same nuance as the Dutch translation?).
What if I don’t want Roman Law applied here and we are outvoted ( “yeah habeaus corpus has so had its day, it’s so well Anglo Saxon, so medieval, time for something more “modern and communautaire”)? QMV for driving on the right? “Sod the casualty rate in four countries it’s all about conformity to the Project”.
I may exaggerate a tad but democracy as we have known it and had handed down to us will die. It’s all coming eventually if we don’t get out. It will be Austria Hungary for our times.
The EU will never be a unitary state like the UK is. I think this is at the root of the ill-founded fears. Even in a fully realised EU, national democracy will still play the biggest role, and will be the forum in which things like 'dementia taxes' get kicked around.
The EU has already lasted longer than the Austro-Hungarian empire. Perhaps it's time to accept it for what it is instead of summoning bogeymen from the past to undermine our place in it.
I'm looking forward to our 10 year recession. It will toughen us all up -especially if we can squeeze in a small war - and put a stop to all that craft beer drinking hipster nonsense.
The froth gets in the goatee beards anyway so probably a health and safety issue as it stands.
UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
That would cost a higher rate taxpayer about £3k per annum, or most lower rate taxpayer about £1,500.
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
Though the fact McDonnell has welcomed the report suggests it is not completely impossible a Corbyn government could implement it
No higher taxes for those on under 80k he said...
After five years of inflation and devaluation under Corbyn and McDonnell, £80k will be barely minimum wage.
With all the predictions here of food riots, tanks in Belfast and Edinburgh, ten year long recessions, popular uprisings against the government, war, famine, plague and death if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
Just like any constituent in this country cannot fire anyone other than his/her MP and have to accept what a Minister / Bureaucrat does. Of course, the sum of all the constituents can change a government.
Yes but I am not Swedish ( to use them as a blameless example here ). My vote may be one of a potential 45 million here but I do have say even if it’s 0.00000001%. I have 0.0% say over who is nominated as Swedish commissioner.
Here we go. Why the British Centre has collapsed. How do you sell ' Austerity ' when a Magic Money Tree exists for this sort of nonsense ? Even if winter flu is worse than expected let alone a genuine NHS crisis happens this can be referenced. It can be referenced against any unmet public spending need anywhere let alone hard Remain areas.
UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
That would cost a higher rate taxpayer about £3k per annum, or most lower rate taxpayer about £1,500.
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
Though the fact McDonnell has welcomed the report suggests it is not completely impossible a Corbyn government could implement it
No higher taxes for those on under 80k he said...
This would be the first Corbyn stealth tax, reducing the personal tax allowance
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
Just like any constituent in this country cannot fire anyone other than his/her MP and have to accept what a Minister / Bureaucrat does. Of course, the sum of all the constituents can change a government.
Yes but I am not Swedish ( to use them as a blameless example here ). My vote may be one of a potential 45 million here but I do have say even if it’s 0.00000001%. I have 0.0% say over who is nominated as Swedish commissioner.
Yes you do through you MEPs but we have never taken the elections seriously
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
You can elect MEPs with the power to sack her and veto any deals she negotiates, and a national government which defines her negotiating mandates. At least parliament has a mandated role in trade deals, which the UK government wants to deny us post-Brexit.
A pure Westminster system might provide good theatrics, but it doesn't give individual voters any more inherent power over decisions.
I do not accept I am part of a European demos for starters.
So the Parliament sacks her. I can’t fire those who nominate to replace her.
Moreover in the Tower of Babel that would be a US of E there would be no common media to hold politicians to account, no real live functioning electoral debate (what if the Spitzenkandidaten are from Bulgaria, France, and Finland how the hell do they meaningfully debate? What is “dementia tax” in Latvian and does it convey the same nuance as the Dutch translation?).
What if I don’t want Roman Law applied here and we are outvoted ( “yeah habeaus corpus has so had its day, it’s so well Anglo Saxon, so medieval, time for something more “modern and communautaire”)? QMV for driving on the right? “Sod the casualty rate in four countries it’s all about conformity to the Project”.
I may exaggerate a tad but democracy as we have known it and had handed down to us will die. It’s all coming eventually if we don’t get out. It will be Austria Hungary for our times.
The EU will never be a unitary state like the UK is. I think this is at the root of the ill-founded fears. Even in a fully realised EU, national democracy will still play the biggest role, and will be the forum in which things like 'dementia taxes' get kicked around.
The EU has already lasted longer than the Austro-Hungarian empire. Perhaps it's time to accept it for what it is instead of summoning bogeymen from the past to undermine our place in it.
A pretty meaningless comparison at the end.
We live to different standards, with different moral and ethics, we view death differently and have experience of the two bloodiest global wars. Communications are different, travel and globalisation have made a tiny impact as has the gigantic increase in living standards and wealth.
It would be sad if mankind hadn't progressed slightly. Comparing snow with an inferno isn't very enlightening.
UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
That would cost a higher rate taxpayer about £3k per annum, or most lower rate taxpayer about £1,500.
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
Though the fact McDonnell has welcomed the report suggests it is not completely impossible a Corbyn government could implement it
No higher taxes for those on under 80k he said...
This would be the first Corbyn stealth tax, reducing the personal tax allowance
Noone I know could afford a 3k a year household pay cut - it'd be crippling !
We live to different standards, with different moral and ethics, we view death differently and have experience of the two bloodiest global wars. Communications are different, travel and globalisation have made a tiny impact as has the gigantic increase in living standards and wealth.
It would be sad if mankind hadn't progressed slightly. Comparing snow with an inferno isn't very enlightening.
It wasn't my comparison, but the idea that the EU will become something that it already has a far more substantial history than seems slightly absurd. It would be like saying the jumbo jet will become the Hindenburg for our times.
This is not a nice place tonight the same old arguaments being rehashed and no consideration of there peoples views. There is no movement in views and it go's round in circles. Lets have some local by elections to discuss
UK state should pay for housing, food, transport and the internet says a new report.
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state. John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”. “This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.' https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
That would cost a higher rate taxpayer about £3k per annum, or most lower rate taxpayer about £1,500.
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
Though the fact McDonnell has welcomed the report suggests it is not completely impossible a Corbyn government could implement it
No higher taxes for those on under 80k he said...
This would be the first Corbyn stealth tax, reducing the personal tax allowance
Noone I know could afford a 3k a year household pay cut - it'd be crippling !
This is not a nice place tonight the same old arguaments being rehashed and no consideration of there peoples views. There is no movement in views and it go's round in circles. Lets have some local by elections to discuss
It will get worse and worse as Brexit progresses. The Remainers will get more and more upset and the Leavers will get more and more annoyed that their version of Brexit (57 Varieties!) is not being delivered.
We live to different standards, with different moral and ethics, we view death differently and have experience of the two bloodiest global wars. Communications are different, travel and globalisation have made a tiny impact as has the gigantic increase in living standards and wealth.
It would be sad if mankind hadn't progressed slightly. Comparing snow with an inferno isn't very enlightening.
It wasn't my comparison, but the idea that the EU will become something that it already has a far more substantial history than seems slightly absurd. It would be like saying the jumbo jet will become the Hindenburg for our times.
No, we should expect the EU to be more successful. If it isn't progress it is pointless. It is a realistic question to ask if the democracy is strong enough to withstand the increased future pressures on it, or will it go the way of Yugoslavia, CCCP, India, check/Slovak, Ottermann, Roman etc.
When it breaks up I would hope it will be civilised and peaceful.
With respect: tosh. They won’t stop till it’s a US of E. It’s the fucking Borg.
You are outlining the classic salami tactic “don’t worry x won’t happen, they don’t want y, we just need a bit of z to make things work a bit better” and then you find the process starts again and there’s another x y and z and we are a bit further into the quicksand. It’s been going on for 43 years without us ever once, not once, being asked if we actually agreed. We didn’t.
This is not a nice place tonight the same old arguaments being rehashed and no consideration of there peoples views. There is no movement in views and it go's round in circles. Lets have some local by elections to discuss
It will get worse and worse as Brexit progresses. The Remainers will get more and more upset and the Leavers will get more and more annoyed that their version of Brexit (57 Varieties!) is not being delivered.
This is not a nice place tonight the same old arguaments being rehashed and no consideration of there peoples views. There is no movement in views and it go's round in circles. Lets have some local by elections to discuss
It will get worse and worse as Brexit progresses. The Remainers will get more and more upset and the Leavers will get more and more annoyed that their version of Brexit (57 Varieties!) is not being delivered.
This is not a nice place tonight the same old arguaments being rehashed and no consideration of there peoples views. There is no movement in views and it go's round in circles. Lets have some local by elections to discuss
It will get worse and worse as Brexit progresses. The Remainers will get more and more upset and the Leavers will get more and more annoyed that their version of Brexit (57 Varieties!) is not being delivered.
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
Just like any constituent in this country cannot fire anyone other than his/her MP and have to accept what a Minister / Bureaucrat does. Of course, the sum of all the constituents can change a government.
Yes but I am not Swedish ( to use them as a blameless example here ). My vote may be one of a potential 45 million here but I do have say even if it’s 0.00000001%. I have 0.0% say over who is nominated as Swedish commissioner.
Yes you do through you MEPs but we have never taken the elections seriously
The Swedish govt nominates the Swedish commissioner. Last time I checked I wasn’t on the electoral role in Malmo.
With respect: tosh. They won’t stop till it’s a US of E. It’s the fucking Borg.
You are outlining the classic salami tactic “don’t worry x won’t happen, they don’t want y, we just need a bit of z to make things work a bit better” and then you find the process starts again and there’s another x y and z and we are a bit further into the quicksand. It’s been going on for 43 years without us ever once, not once, being asked if we actually agreed. We didn’t.
If the EU does become an integrated super-state, the decisions of its leading politicians and institutions will have a strong enough impact on us that we might as well be part of it. We're integrated enough into the world economic system that any notional political independence from the genuine powers will be quite superficial.
... if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Sunil and I sorted it out upthread. Baryon decay and the death of particulate matter leaving only a lepton/neutrino fog and the photons followed by matter / anti-matter storms and the heat-death of the universe.
With respect: tosh. They won’t stop till it’s a US of E. It’s the fucking Borg.
You are outlining the classic salami tactic “don’t worry x won’t happen, they don’t want y, we just need a bit of z to make things work a bit better” and then you find the process starts again and there’s another x y and z and we are a bit further into the quicksand. It’s been going on for 43 years without us ever once, not once, being asked if we actually agreed. We didn’t.
If the EU does become an integrated super-state, the decisions of its leading politicians and institutions will have a strong enough impact on us that we might as well be part of it. We're integrated enough into the world economic system that any independence from the genuine powers will be quite superficial.
So Ireland should give up and rejoin us? Justin Trudeau should hand the keys to his desk over to the Donald? Still at least we could abolish Luxembourg hand it over to Germany ( been tried twice already that) and perhaps Juncker would vanish at the same time? We could but hope.
This is not a nice place tonight the same old arguaments being rehashed and no consideration of there peoples views. There is no movement in views and it go's round in circles. Lets have some local by elections to discuss
Well only 17 months and 18 days until 29 March 2019 for the same circular arguments - at the very least.
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
Just like any constituent in this country cannot fire anyone other than his/her MP and have to accept what a Minister / Bureaucrat does. Of course, the sum of all the constituents can change a government.
Yes but I am not Swedish ( to use them as a blameless example here ). My vote may be one of a potential 45 million here but I do have say even if it’s 0.00000001%. I have 0.0% say over who is nominated as Swedish commissioner.
Yes you do through you MEPs but we have never taken the elections seriously
The Swedish govt nominates the Swedish commissioner. Last time I checked I wasn’t on the electoral role in Malmo.
Fortunately we won't have to trade with Sweden after Brexit
... if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Sunil and I sorted it out upthread. Baryon decay and the death of particulate matter leaving only a lepton/neutrino fog and the photons followed by matter / anti-matter storms and the heat-death of the universe.
Ratcheting up from there could be tricky....
Sounds like Newport on a Friday at pub chucking out.
... if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Sunil and I sorted it out upthread. Baryon decay and the death of particulate matter leaving only a lepton/neutrino fog and the photons followed by matter / anti-matter storms and the heat-death of the universe.
Ratcheting up from there could be tricky....
Sounds like Newport on a Friday at pub chucking out.
I imagine that there are plenty of particulates .....
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
Just like any constituent in this country cannot fire anyone other than his/her MP and have to accept what a Minister / Bureaucrat does. Of course, the sum of all the constituents can change a government.
Yes but I am not Swedish ( to use them as a blameless example here ). My vote may be one of a potential 45 million here but I do have say even if it’s 0.00000001%. I have 0.0% say over who is nominated as Swedish commissioner.
Yes you do through you MEPs but we have never taken the elections seriously
The Swedish govt nominates the Swedish commissioner. Last time I checked I wasn’t on the electoral role in Malmo.
Fortunately we won't have to trade with Sweden after Brexit
... if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Sunil and I sorted it out upthread. Baryon decay and the death of particulate matter leaving only a lepton/neutrino fog and the photons followed by matter / anti-matter storms and the heat-death of the universe.
Ratcheting up from there could be tricky....
Sounds like Newport on a Friday at pub chucking out.
I imagine that there are plenty of particulates .....
With respect: tosh. They won’t stop till it’s a US of E. It’s the fucking Borg.
You are outlining the classic salami tactic “don’t worry x won’t happen, they don’t want y, we just need a bit of z to make things work a bit better” and then you find the process starts again and there’s another x y and z and we are a bit further into the quicksand. It’s been going on for 43 years without us ever once, not once, being asked if we actually agreed. We didn’t.
If the EU does become an integrated super-state, the decisions of its leading politicians and institutions will have a strong enough impact on us that we might as well be part of it. We're integrated enough into the world economic system that any independence from the genuine powers will be quite superficial.
So Ireland should give up and rejoin us? Justin Trudeau should hand the keys to his desk over to the Donald? Still at least we could abolish Luxembourg hand it over to Germany ( been tried twice already that) and perhaps Juncker would vanish at the same time? We could but hope.
Nothing so radical. I do sympathise with your criticisms of the EU's democratic processes and failure to make us feel part of it. I feel similar about the British state - I don't think we've cracked a way to make the various individuals cohere into a proper demos with a will that can be interpreted etc. I just don't get this romantic vision of Brexit Britain versus EU commissioners, which will be at the mercy of economic forces beyond any democratic machinery to the same extent if not more.
And thus is a man who tried to silence Sam Harris and bill Maher as racists.
It does seem incredible that none -- none -- of the many big stars who hung out with Harvey knew, or suspected, or heard anything.
Until they read it all in the New York Times.
It is hard to say who comes out worse, Harvey. Or Harvey’s “friends” who were happy to backslap him when he was important and are now busy expressing their “shock”.
Or Obama or Hillary, who jumped to accept the big donations, and now the tide is turning have been quick to jump away.
This isn’t going to stop with Harvey. Who’s next ?
I am about 70% confident that we will end up as a Norway style client of the EU, where we keep part of our benefits, pay for them as now, are bound by the rules, but no longer have the influence we had as participating members.
Has your confidence level for that outcome gone up or down and what do the remaining 30% possibilities look like?
Much more confident. I originally thought there would be repeated "transition period" can kicks as the two parties tried to thrash out a Canada style preferential trade deal over perhaps a decade. I now don't think either party will wear that uncertainty. Bear in mind the grief just to get the initial two year can kick. So if there doesn't seem to be a pathway to a PTA, that leaves full membership, client status or no deal at all, realistically. While I think it is very possible that we will crash out without an Article 50 withdrawal agreement, it isn't a settled position. It also holds up third party agreements.
Very quickly people will ask, what do we do now? What we can do now is entirely at the discretion of the EU, who don't owe us any favours, who think we have damaged them and can dictate terms. EEA is a ready-made arrangement, so that has to be a strong possibility. I don't think the EU will mind us doing what they tell us and paying for it. Rejoining the EU is a possibility and an accelerated push on a preferential trade agreement that is very favourable to the EU is another possibility.
I think if voters were aware that leaving the EU would result in getting less for more money and having less say while going through massive disruption, they would say, let's stay. But they weren't and we will.
And thus is a man who tried to silence Sam Harris and bill Maher as racists.
It does seem incredible that none -- none -- of the many big stars who hung out with Harvey knew, or suspected, or heard anything.
Until they read it all in the New York Times.
It is hard to say who comes out worse, Harvey. Or Harvey’s “friends” who were happy to backslap him when he was important and are now busy expressing their “shock”.
Or Obama or Hillary, who jumped to accept the big donations, and now the tide is turning have been quick to jump away.
This isn’t going to stop with Harvey. Who’s next ?
With respect: tosh. They won’t stop till it’s a US of E. It’s the fucking Borg.
You are outlining the classic salami tactic “don’t worry x won’t happen, they don’t want y, we just need a bit of z to make things work a bit better” and then you find the process starts again and there’s another x y and z and we are a bit further into the quicksand. It’s been going on for 43 years without us ever once, not once, being asked if we actually agreed. We didn’t.
If the EU does become an integrated super-state, the decisions of its leading politicians and institutions will have a strong enough impact on us that we might as well be part of it. We're integrated enough into the world economic system that any independence from the genuine powers will be quite superficial.
So Ireland should give up and rejoin us? Justin Trudeau should hand the keys to his desk over to the Donald? Still at least we could abolish Luxembourg hand it over to Germany ( been tried twice already that) and perhaps Juncker would vanish at the same time? We could but hope.
Nothing so radical. I do sympathise with your criticisms of the EU's democratic processes and failure to make us feel part of it. I feel similar about the British state - I don't think we've cracked a way to make the various individuals cohere into a proper demos with a will that can be interpreted etc. I just don't get this romantic vision of Brexit Britain versus EU commissioners, which will be at the mercy of economic forces beyond any democratic machinery to the same extent if not more.
It won’t be perfect, nothing ever is. But I think it will be better than the coming alternative which I characterise as democratically window dressed bureaucracy.
I want a Canada/USA or Australia/NZ relationship not an antagonistic one. Sadly the EU are really doing their level best through ineptness to screw that vision up. They seem obesessed by the 1-3 year outcomes not the 5-30 year ones.
It will be a modern Austria Hungary. Lovely buildings, puffy cream cakes, superlative waltzes, lots of feathery Archdukes, preening itself in its little European world, while gently coasting down hill looking a bit motheaten, wrestling with its impossible multi lingual creaking political structures and contradictions.
It won’t be all roses for us, but to switch centuries I’d rather be Francis Drake going into the wide yet shrinking world than Phillip II of Spain defending a clod hopping clumsy autocratic empire.
It will be a modern Austria Hungary. Lovely buildings, puffy cream cakes, superlative waltzes, lots of feathery Archdukes, preening itself in its little European world, while gently coasting down hill looking a bit motheaten, wrestling with its impossible multi lingual creaking political structures and contradictions.
It won’t be all roses for us, but to switch centuries I’d rather be Francis Drake going into the wide yet shrinking world than Phillip II of Spain defending a clod hopping clumsy autocratic empire.
London in the EU is anything but an inward looking pastiche of the kind you describe but is exactly the kind of global city people seem to think is the great prize of Brexit.
Perhaps instead of leaving the EU, we should instead be focusing on the boring questions about regional development, infrastructure and so on, so that we have a strategy to ensure the rest of the country isn't left behind?
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
Just like any constituent in this country cannot fire anyone other than his/her MP and have to accept what a Minister / Bureaucrat does. Of course, the sum of all the constituents can change a government.
Yes but I am not Swedish ( to use them as a blameless example here ). My vote may be one of a potential 45 million here but I do have say even if it’s 0.00000001%. I have 0.0% say over who is nominated as Swedish commissioner.
Yes you do through you MEPs but we have never taken the elections seriously
The Swedish govt nominates the Swedish commissioner. Last time I checked I wasn’t on the electoral role in Malmo.
Fortunately we won't have to trade with Sweden after Brexit
Lol! The Volvo salesmen are stuffed then.
Somehow I think Ikea won’t implode whatever.
There's nothing wrong with Ikea that a few sticks of dynamite wouldn't fix.
And thus is a man who tried to silence Sam Harris and bill Maher as racists.
It does seem incredible that none -- none -- of the many big stars who hung out with Harvey knew, or suspected, or heard anything.
Until they read it all in the New York Times.
It is hard to say who comes out worse, Harvey. Or Harvey’s “friends” who were happy to backslap him when he was important and are now busy expressing their “shock”.
Or Obama or Hillary, who jumped to accept the big donations, and now the tide is turning have been quick to jump away.
This isn’t going to stop with Harvey. Who’s next ?
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
You can elect MEPs with the power to sack her and veto any deals she negotiates, and a national government which defines her negotiating mandates. At least parliament has a mandated role in trade deals, which the UK government wants to deny us post-Brexit.
A pure Westminster system might provide good theatrics, but it doesn't give individual voters any more inherent power over decisions.
I do not accept I am part of a European demos for starters.
So the Parliament sacks her. I can’t fire those who nominate to replace her.
Moreover in the Tower of Babel that would be a US of E there would be no common media to hold politicians to account, no real live functioning electoral debate (what if the Spitzenkandidaten are from Bulgaria, France, and Finland how the hell do they meaningfully debate? What is “dementia tax” in Latvian and does it convey the same nuance as the Dutch translation?).
What if I don’t want Roman Law applied here and we are outvoted ( “yeah habeaus corpus has so had its day, it’s so well Anglo Saxon, so medieval, time for something more “modern and communautaire”)? QMV for driving on the right? “Sod the casualty rate in four countries it’s all about conformity to the Project”.
I may exaggerate a tad but democracy as we have known it and had handed down to us will die. It’s all coming eventually if we don’t get out. It will be Austria Hungary for our times.
You should expand you're reading beyond the daily mail
Perhaps instead of leaving the EU, we should instead be focusing on the boring questions about regional development, infrastructure and so on, so that we have a strategy to ensure the rest of the country isn't left behind?
Maybe we should be focusing on the lower-level questions that nobody seems to bother with? There is a lot of yammer about "taking back control" and "sovereignty" and "self-determination", etc, etc, etc,
But nobody can tell me if Brexit will keep food on my table, or if it will make any difference to my household bills. Will my family be safer? The sort of low-level questions that occupy the minds of most parents.
Serious question (which I need for my day job): what's our best guess for the timing of the EU(Withdrawal) Bill, assuming no significan derailments? Start Commons Committee on Oct 23, carry on till Nov 3 (are we still assuming 2 weeks?), to Lords on Nov 6, then on to say Nov 24, then a bit of ping-pong, finished just in time for the Christmas recess?
It will be a modern Austria Hungary. Lovely buildings, puffy cream cakes, superlative waltzes, lots of feathery Archdukes, preening itself in its little European world, while gently coasting down hill looking a bit motheaten, wrestling with its impossible multi lingual creaking political structures and contradictions.
It won’t be all roses for us, but to switch centuries I’d rather be Francis Drake going into the wide yet shrinking world than Phillip II of Spain defending a clod hopping clumsy autocratic empire.
London in the EU is anything but an inward looking pastiche of the kind you describe but is exactly the kind of global city people seem to think is the great prize of Brexit.
Perhaps instead of leaving the EU, we should instead be focusing on the boring questions about regional development, infrastructure and so on, so that we have a strategy to ensure the rest of the country isn't left behind?
I can agree with you! Yay! But only on the very last bit from “we should instead be”. Still it’s a start.
And thus is a man who tried to silence Sam Harris and bill Maher as racists.
It does seem incredible that none -- none -- of the many big stars who hung out with Harvey knew, or suspected, or heard anything.
Until they read it all in the New York Times.
It is hard to say who comes out worse, Harvey. Or Harvey’s “friends” who were happy to backslap him when he was important and are now busy expressing their “shock”.
Or Obama or Hillary, who jumped to accept the big donations, and now the tide is turning have been quick to jump away.
This isn’t going to stop with Harvey. Who’s next ?
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
Just like any constituent in this country cannot fire anyone other than his/her MP and have to accept what a Minister / Bureaucrat does. Of course, the sum of all the constituents can change a government.
Yes but I am not Swedish ( to use them as a blameless example here ). My vote may be one of a potential 45 million here but I do have say even if it’s 0.00000001%. I have 0.0% say over who is nominated as Swedish commissioner.
Yes you do through you MEPs but we have never taken the elections seriously
The Swedish govt nominates the Swedish commissioner. Last time I checked I wasn’t on the electoral role in Malmo.
Fortunately we won't have to trade with Sweden after Brexit
Lol! The Volvo salesmen are stuffed then.
Somehow I think Ikea won’t implode whatever.
It won't implode but due to shoddy workmanship and people not following the instructions it will collapse in an embarrassing heap of chips.
It should be trivial to think of deals worse than no deal, but if you want the proof that the 74% have the right answers, here it is. There are a countably infinite number of deals (including 'no deal') possible, each with a value to the UK. One over infinity tends to lim 0, and so the chance that 'no deal' is the least valuable of those deals also tends to 0.
If I wish, as I do, to live in a meaningful responsive democracy till my dying day, it looks like it will take some effort. Fine.
How should your responsive democracy respond if it turns out that a majority of people have changed their minds about leaving the EU? It would be undemocratic to deny them, no?
Mr Glenn how do I fire the Swedish commissioner who is negotiating trade deals that would affect me. I can’t.
How do I stop laws being applied to me by QMV where the govt of the day which signed up to a vast extension reneged on a manifesto referendum promise by weasel words “treaty” rather than “constitution”. I can’t.
You can elect MEPs with the power to sack her and veto any deals she negotiates, and a national government which defines her negotiating mandates. At least parliament has a mandated role in trade deals, which the UK government wants to deny us post-Brexit.
A pure Westminster system might provide good theatrics, but it doesn't give individual voters any more inherent power over decisions.
I do not accept I am part of a European demos for starters.
So the Parliament sacks her. I can’t fire those who nominate to replace her.
Moreover in the Tower of Babel that would be a US of E there would be no common media to hold politicians to account, no real live functioning electoral debate (what if the Spitzenkandidaten are from Bulgaria, France, and Finland how the hell do they meaningfully debate? What is “dementia tax” in Latvian and does it convey the same nuance as the Dutch translation?).
What if I don’t want Roman Law applied here and we are outvoted ( “yeah habeaus corpus has so had its day, it’s so well Anglo Saxon, so medieval, time for something more “modern and communautaire”)? QMV for driving on the right? “Sod the casualty rate in four countries it’s all about conformity to the Project”.
I may exaggerate a tad but democracy as we have known it and had handed down to us will die. It’s all coming eventually if we don’t get out. It will be Austria Hungary for our times.
You should expand you're reading beyond the daily mail
And thus is a man who tried to silence Sam Harris and bill Maher as racists.
It does seem incredible that none -- none -- of the many big stars who hung out with Harvey knew, or suspected, or heard anything.
Until they read it all in the New York Times.
It is hard to say who comes out worse, Harvey. Or Harvey’s “friends” who were happy to backslap him when he was important and are now busy expressing their “shock”.
Or Obama or Hillary, who jumped to accept the big donations, and now the tide is turning have been quick to jump away.
This isn’t going to stop with Harvey. Who’s next ?
Knew/suspected/heard are three very different things, and in the nature of things molesters tend to molest in witness-free contexts. Look at the huffing and puffing in recent days over what Grocer Heath got up to, and consider this: if Savile had done only 20% of the things he did and had been 5 times as cautious as he was about being found out, he would still be a grotesque and horrible monster and we might not know it. We might dismiss any allegations made against him as spiteful tittle tattle against a great entertainer, tireless charity fund raiser, close friend of the idiot Charles. And Savile is dead, Weinstein is alive and (until 48 hours ago) powerful.
... if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Sunil and I sorted it out upthread. Baryon decay and the death of particulate matter leaving only a lepton/neutrino fog and the photons followed by matter / anti-matter storms and the heat-death of the universe.
With respect: tosh. They won’t stop till it’s a US of E. It’s the fucking Borg.
You are outlining the classic salami tactic “don’t worry x won’t happen, they don’t want y, we just need a bit of z to make things work a bit better” and then you find the process starts again and there’s another x y and z and we are a bit further into the quicksand. It’s been going on for 43 years without us ever once, not once, being asked if we actually agreed. We didn’t.
If the EU does become an integrated super-state, the decisions of its leading politicians and institutions will have a strong enough impact on us that we might as well be part of it. We're integrated enough into the world economic system that any independence from the genuine powers will be quite superficial.
So Ireland should give up and rejoin us? Justin Trudeau should hand the keys to his desk over to the Donald? Still at least we could abolish Luxembourg hand it over to Germany ( been tried twice already that) and perhaps Juncker would vanish at the same time? We could but hope.
Ireland's two largest trading partners are the UK and USA and even after 40 years of EU membership far more young Irish people would rather emigrate to Australia than anywhere in the EU, Ireland has done well out of the EU in the past - it's future as a net contributing English speaking nation may be less rosy.
... if Brexit goes ahead, I wonder whether the horror can be ratcheted up any further. Where do you go from there?
Sunil and I sorted it out upthread. Baryon decay and the death of particulate matter leaving only a lepton/neutrino fog and the photons followed by matter / anti-matter storms and the heat-death of the universe.
Ratcheting up from there could be tricky....
Tricky? Piece of piss if you ask me...
On the scenario you outline, the universe still exists, it's just very empty and cold. That is a class X4 apocalypse
What you want is a class X5 apocalypse in which every universe (and variations thereof) in the multiverse is destroyed, or class X6 apocalypse in which every universe (and variations thereof) in the multiverse, including fictional universes, potential universes, and any concieved and unconceived creator of the multiverse, does not exist, could not exist, and never did exist
Comments
https://twitter.com/SkyNewsBreak/status/918177084958232577
'The recommendations include doubling Britain’s existing social housing stock with funding to build 1.5m new homes, which would be offered for free to those in most need. A food service would provide one third of meals for 2.2m households deemed to experience food insecurity each year, while free bus passes would be made available to everyone, rather than just the over-60s.
The proposals also include access to basic phone services, the internet, and the cost of the BBC licence fee being paid for by the state.
John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, said the recommendations would “help inform Labour’s thinking”.
“This report offers bold new thinking on how we can overcome those challenges and create an economy that is radically fairer and offers opportunities for all,” he added.....Voters may balk at the higher taxes required, with the report earmarking a massive reduction in the personal tax allowance from the current rate of £11,500 to as little as £4,300 to pay for the changes.'
https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/oct/11/uk-universal-basic-services-jonathan-portes?CMP=share_btn_fb
Remember, at the Euro's birth: £1 = €1.40
It is a great idea in many ways but would only benefit one group of people.
So the Parliament sacks her. I can’t fire those who nominate to replace her.
Moreover in the Tower of Babel that would be a US of E there would be no common media to hold politicians to account, no real live functioning electoral debate (what if the Spitzenkandidaten are from Bulgaria, France, and Finland how the hell do they meaningfully debate? What is “dementia tax” in Latvian and does it convey the same nuance as the Dutch translation?).
What if I don’t want Roman Law applied here and we are outvoted ( “yeah habeaus corpus has so had its day, it’s so well Anglo Saxon, so medieval, time for something more “modern and communautaire”)? QMV for driving on the right? “Sod the casualty rate in four countries it’s all about conformity to the Project”.
I may exaggerate a tad but democracy as we have known it and had handed down to us will die. It’s all coming eventually if we don’t get out. It will be Austria Hungary for our times.
The EU has already lasted longer than the Austro-Hungarian empire. Perhaps it's time to accept it for what it is instead of summoning bogeymen from the past to undermine our place in it.
Ben Affleck apologises for 'groping' MTV host Hilarie Burton
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/entertainment-arts-41589352
And thus is a man who tried to silence Sam Harris and bill Maher as racists.
https://m.slashdot.org/story/332275
We live to different standards, with different moral and ethics, we view death differently and have experience of the two bloodiest global wars. Communications are different, travel and globalisation have made a tiny impact as has the gigantic increase in living standards and wealth.
It would be sad if mankind hadn't progressed slightly. Comparing snow with an inferno isn't very enlightening.
When it breaks up I would hope it will be civilised and peaceful.
Mr Glenn
With respect: tosh. They won’t stop till it’s a US of E. It’s the fucking Borg.
You are outlining the classic salami tactic “don’t worry x won’t happen, they don’t want y, we just need a bit of z to make things work a bit better” and then you find the process starts again and there’s another x y and z and we are a bit further into the quicksand. It’s been going on for 43 years without us ever once, not once, being asked if we actually agreed. We didn’t.
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/pa/article-4971146/Arsonist-jailed-torching-homeless-man-s-tent.html
Ratcheting up from there could be tricky....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-35692452
Just wait until things get to the House of Lords.
I will get my hat and coat
Somehow I think Ikea won’t implode whatever.
Until they read it all in the New York Times.
It is hard to say who comes out worse, Harvey. Or Harvey’s “friends” who were happy to backslap him when he was important and are now busy expressing their “shock”.
Or Obama or Hillary, who jumped to accept the big donations, and now the tide is turning have been quick to jump away.
This isn’t going to stop with Harvey. Who’s next ?
Very quickly people will ask, what do we do now? What we can do now is entirely at the discretion of the EU, who don't owe us any favours, who think we have damaged them and can dictate terms. EEA is a ready-made arrangement, so that has to be a strong possibility. I don't think the EU will mind us doing what they tell us and paying for it. Rejoining the EU is a possibility and an accelerated push on a preferential trade agreement that is very favourable to the EU is another possibility.
I think if voters were aware that leaving the EU would result in getting less for more money and having less say while going through massive disruption, they would say, let's stay. But they weren't and we will.
I want a Canada/USA or Australia/NZ relationship not an antagonistic one. Sadly the EU are really doing their level best through ineptness to screw that vision up. They seem obesessed by the 1-3 year outcomes not the 5-30 year ones.
It will be a modern Austria Hungary. Lovely buildings, puffy cream cakes, superlative waltzes, lots of feathery Archdukes, preening itself in its little European world, while gently coasting down hill looking a bit motheaten, wrestling with its impossible multi lingual creaking political structures and contradictions.
It won’t be all roses for us, but to switch centuries I’d rather be Francis Drake going into the wide yet shrinking world than Phillip II of Spain defending a clod hopping clumsy autocratic empire.
Perhaps instead of leaving the EU, we should instead be focusing on the boring questions about regional development, infrastructure and so on, so that we have a strategy to ensure the rest of the country isn't left behind?
But nobody can tell me if Brexit will keep food on my table, or if it will make any difference to my household bills. Will my family be safer? The sort of low-level questions that occupy the minds of most parents.
Ben Affleck.
http://www.vulture.com/2017/10/after-harvey-weinstein-terry-crews-shares-his-own-story.html
No you don't.
new thread
On the scenario you outline, the universe still exists, it's just very empty and cold. That is a class X4 apocalypse
What you want is a class X5 apocalypse in which every universe (and variations thereof) in the multiverse is destroyed, or class X6 apocalypse in which every universe (and variations thereof) in the multiverse, including fictional universes, potential universes, and any concieved and unconceived creator of the multiverse, does not exist, could not exist, and never did exist
See http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ApocalypseHow
fooddeserts.org/images/paper0114.pdf