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SystemSystem Posts: 12,677
edited October 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Ex-Tory chairman Shapps “leading the rebels working to oust TMay”

Former CON chairman under Cameron, Grant Shapps says that TMay should quit and new leader be electedhttps://t.co/cDyDE3iTGW pic.twitter.com/kQoiVapsna

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Comments

  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,558
    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,558
    edited October 2017
    There is simple is no appetite among the Conservative Westminster party to ditch Theresa May at this point in the Parliament. They don't want a self indulgent and damaging Leadership contest right now, anymore than they want to land up with one of the also rans that all fell by the way side in the last contest leading us into another GE anytime soon! And it hasn't taken a rocket scientist to work out the likely identity of the small group of MPs making some noise, but who simple don't have anywhere the numbers prepared to follow them over the parapet on this self indulgent and damaging attempted coup either!

    The bottom line is the fact that the current Westminster Conservative party is actually made up of a lot new MPs who have entered Parliament in the last decade or so, and they are far from ready to throw the towel in over either Brexit or being on the Government benches anytime soon! They don't want a divisive has been from any strand of the party landing the Leadership by default as the best of a bad bunch, and then limping onto the next GE. The Parliamentary party made a collective decision in the hours and days following the last GE, they want Theresa May to stay and oversee Brexit. And then they want May to announce her departure at a date that allows for a full Leadership contest, and one that would then allow them to find their own Ruth Davidson from the PCP and then let them bed in before leading them into the next GE.

    If I was Theresa May I would be planning a Government Reshuffle that would reassert her authority, and more importantly to allow some of the rising stars on backbenchers to show their mettle at junior and Cabinet level as Michael Howard did when he resigned and passed on the baton. There has been so much focus on May, but not nearly enough on the underperforming members of her Government at various levels. And far from May being too weak to do this, she does has the authority despite her critics, and because she has the backing of the 1922 committee as well as her backbenchers who are willing her onto to take that step in the coming days and weeks.

    The Westminster Lobby might be gunning for May, but her party are rallying the wagons around her because of that equally ruthless survival streak that has decided that she won't lead them into the next GE, but she will stay until they can find a leader who can.

    As for Boris, if he had any decency, he would have resigned today and apologised to both May and his Party for his behaviour in his resignation letter! Boris is a political maverick, and that no doubt helped him become London Mayor. But he is not a team player, and he lacks the Leadership skills required to become a PM for the many across the UK.
  • old_labourold_labour Posts: 3,238
    FPT

    @viewcode

    Rod Crosby mentioned these people for dental work. IIRC, he spoke well of them and got a lot of work done.

    http://www.dentalholiday.co.uk/
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 61,387
    In news from over the pond:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/tillerson-summoned-white-house-amid-presidential-fury-n808216?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (OT) I am surprised that this unrepentant murderer has been released from prison, only 26 years after committing a carefully planned and premeditated murder on live TV. Anybody old enough to remember the incident will remember the incident.

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4951528/Albert-Dryden-shot-man-TV-cameras-released.html
  • JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    Whatever happened to the usual Smithsonian orthodoxy that the only criterion that matters is the length of the standing ovation at the end of a leader's speech? Has it been ditched into a memory hole by revisionist thought-criminals? After IDS getting a pathetic 9 minutes, perhaps OGH is hoping we won't have noticed that the Indefatigable and Unassailable Maybot got a hugely triumphant 1 minute 48 seconds.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Grant Shapps? Titter.......
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
  • logical_songlogical_song Posts: 10,086
    rcs1000 said:

    In news from over the pond:

    https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/white-house/tillerson-summoned-white-house-amid-presidential-fury-n808216?cid=sm_npd_nn_fb_ma

    Trump should find another General to replace Rex. They'll come in handy when he decides to declare martial law.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,781
    edited October 2017
    Viewcode FPT: Hungary is frequently recommended for dental work, including implants - Rod Crosby here used them and I've seen other recommendations. They are highly-organised - you can have the initial consultation in London, and everything is apparently laid on for you, including flight and stay. Obviously DYOR but they're definitely an option to consider. One outfit have a frequent half-age ad in the Metro - I'm told this is the longest-established looking for UK business.

    On topic, TM's polling looks not as bad as you might expect, with Tory voters largely loyal. The question is whether staggering on or having a divisive new leadership election will erode support more. It's genuinely unclear, but doesn't look very promising either way.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,366
    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    Not sure that's right. It is only the lack of a clear and non-problematic alternative that is making people pause. Few would think May is actually up to the job anymore.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    Must confess, I totally missed it could be him.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    NickPalmer said:

    Viewcode FPT: Hungary is frequently recommended for dental work, including implants - Rod Crosby here used them and I've seen other recommendations. They are highly-organised - you can have the initial consultation in London, and everything is apparently laid on for you, including flight and stay. Obviously DYOR but they're definitely an option to consider. One outfit have a frequent half-age ad in the Metro - I'm told this is the longest-established looking for UK business.

    On topic, TM's polling looks not as bad as you might expect, with Tory voters largely loyal. The question is whether staggering on or having a divisive new leadership election will erode support more. It's genuinely unclear, but doesn't look very promising either way.

    Bulgaria is excellent, and very affordable.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,366
    Casino_Royale said:

    Must confess, I totally missed it could be him.

    One of May's few political skills is the ability to make really bitter enemies. She's really good at it.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    I think she's holed beneath the waterline.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Shapps leading the news. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Reminds me of the coups aginst Corbyn.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2017
    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:

    Edit as a guide I'd say:

    Tories - George Gardiner
    Conservatives - Sir Tufton Bufton
    Constitutionalists - Bill Cash
    Whigs - Cranborne/Ancram
    Liberal Unionists - Hurd/Mayhew
    National Liberals - Heseltine, Nott
    Radicals - Thatcher
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    Dave was a Liberal Conservative. All meaningless.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Casino_Royale said:

    Must confess, I totally missed it could be him.

    R4 report that they plan to go directly to Number 10 as they haven’t got the numbers for the ‘22 ~ as Simon Jenkins observed yesterday UK party leaders have enormous power provided they keep their nerve.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    shapps on r4 now
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    CarlottaVance said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Must confess, I totally missed it could be him.

    R4 report that they plan to go directly to Number 10 as they haven’t got the numbers for the ‘22 ~ as Simon Jenkins observed yesterday UK party leaders have enormous power provided they keep their nerve.
    In that case, they should try and find Philip, not Theresa.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,366

    Picture Theresa as Mick Jones:

    Darling, you gotta let me know
    Should I stay or should I go?
    If you say that you are mine
    I'll be there till the end of time
    So you gotta let me know
    Should I stay or should I go?

    I'll always tease,tease,tease
    You're happy when I'm on my knees
    One day is fine and the next is black
    So if you want me off your back
    Well, come on and let me know
    Should I stay or should I go

    Should I stay or should I go now?
    Should I stay or should I go now?
    If I go there will be trouble
    And if I stay it will be double
    So come on and let me know

    The indecisions bugging me
    (esta un decision me molesta)
    If you don't want me set me free
    (Si no quieres librame)
    Exactly who I'm supposed to be
    (Diga me que tengo ser)
    Don't you know which clothes even fits me?
    (saves que robas me querida)
    Come on and let me know
    (Me tienes que decir)
    Should I cool it or should I blow?
    (Me debo ir o quedarme)

    Maybe a bit too much of an EU influence in that version but....
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,245
    Casino_Royale said:

    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    I think she's holed beneath the waterline.
    She was holed below the waterline by the election result, but the arguments against her resigning then still hold good now, and Shapps 'my account was hacked that time I claimed to be a Liberal Democrat, honestly,' becoming her main opponent in the Commons isn't going to change matters. Unless a Cabinet minister does a Purnell on her, I think she will ride this out and stay probably another year.
    Jonathan said:

    Shapps leading the news. Will be interesting to see how this plays out. Reminds me of the coups aginst Corbyn.

    If they play out like that she's safe enough! (Although ironically of course Corbyn would have been removed if he had been a Conservative.)
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    We're the Ed Miliband tribute act at the moment.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,297
    DavidL said:

    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    Not sure that's right. It is only the lack of a clear and non-problematic alternative that is making people pause. Few would think May is actually up to the job anymore.
    And almost no one will think that Grant Shapps is or has or could identify the answer.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    Dave was a Liberal Conservative. All meaningless.
    Closer to a National Liberal than a Liberal Unionist but (with the Whigs) they are sometimes grouped as Liberal Conservatives
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    edited October 2017
    Shapps wriggling on R4 ~ won’t provide a number ~ claims the Whips briefed the Times and he’s “trying to avoid embarrassing Mrs May” ho ho ho......
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Casino_Royale said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Viewcode FPT: Hungary is frequently recommended for dental work, including implants - Rod Crosby here used them and I've seen other recommendations. They are highly-organised - you can have the initial consultation in London, and everything is apparently laid on for you, including flight and stay. Obviously DYOR but they're definitely an option to consider. One outfit have a frequent half-age ad in the Metro - I'm told this is the longest-established looking for UK business.

    On topic, TM's polling looks not as bad as you might expect, with Tory voters largely loyal. The question is whether staggering on or having a divisive new leadership election will erode support more. It's genuinely unclear, but doesn't look very promising either way.

    Bulgaria is excellent, and very affordable.
    One thing that we should be very proud of in our EU membership is the way we have developed Eastern Europe as economically liberal democracies. Not perfect by a long way, but getting there.

    It is rare to hear PB so united in extolling the virtues of cheap Eastern European labour undercutting British small business.

    I would suggest this is part of "Cake and eat it" but dont think the icing sugar is good for my teeth.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    May is lucky to be facing Shapps. Very weak this morning.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    DavidL said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Must confess, I totally missed it could be him.

    One of May's few political skills is the ability to make really bitter enemies. She's really good at it.
    I'm not sure I buy (anymore) the let's wait until Brexit is over argument.

    For the reason you describe, she might be the problem.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    Not sure that's right. It is only the lack of a clear and non-problematic alternative that is making people pause. Few would think May is actually up to the job anymore.
    And almost no one will think that Grant Shapps is or has or could identify the answer.
    As he is ably demonstrating on R4 just now.......
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,366
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    Not sure that's right. It is only the lack of a clear and non-problematic alternative that is making people pause. Few would think May is actually up to the job anymore.
    And almost no one will think that Grant Shapps is or has or could identify the answer.
    That is undeniably true. A bizarre appointment by Cameron, just bizarre.
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,245
    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    We're the Ed Miliband tribute act at the moment.
    Not all of Ed Miliband's ideas were bad. He was flaky and inconsistent, plus weak and confused, but he did offer some genuinely new thinking on issues which is certainly more than his brother, or Brown, or Corbyn ever have. Trouble is, put all together they amounted to a vast increase in bureaucratic power at the expense of flexibility, along with a very statist vision. His energy cap was a stupid idea then, and a stupid idea now. What was (is) needed is market reform, but that's hard and a price cap is easy. But the apprenticeships guarantee could have been an interesting way forward, as was the idea of using funds from Help to Buy to build houses rather than just buy them.
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Viewcode FPT: Hungary is frequently recommended for dental work, including implants - Rod Crosby here used them and I've seen other recommendations. They are highly-organised - you can have the initial consultation in London, and everything is apparently laid on for you, including flight and stay. Obviously DYOR but they're definitely an option to consider. One outfit have a frequent half-age ad in the Metro - I'm told this is the longest-established looking for UK business.

    On topic, TM's polling looks not as bad as you might expect, with Tory voters largely loyal. The question is whether staggering on or having a divisive new leadership election will erode support more. It's genuinely unclear, but doesn't look very promising either way.

    Bulgaria is excellent, and very affordable.
    One thing that we should be very proud of in our EU membership is the way we have developed Eastern Europe as economically liberal democracies. Not perfect by a long way, but getting there.

    It is rare to hear PB so united in extolling the virtues of cheap Eastern European labour undercutting British small business.

    I would suggest this is part of "Cake and eat it" but dont think the icing sugar is good for my teeth.
    It has nothing to do with the EU or immigration, despite your somewhat feeble attempts to stretch it into a political point.

    I'd recommend visiting any nation worldwide that specialises in offering a good service at a good price, I'm a free trader, and it's good to visit new places.

    But, for what it's worth, my wife originally hailed from Bulgaria and my brother-in-law is a (very good) orthodontist.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 56,366
    Casino_Royale said:

    DavidL said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Must confess, I totally missed it could be him.

    One of May's few political skills is the ability to make really bitter enemies. She's really good at it.
    I'm not sure I buy (anymore) the let's wait until Brexit is over argument.

    For the reason you describe, she might be the problem.
    Unfortunately she is not "the problem". But she is not the solution either.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    If Shapps is the answer the tories are even more fucked than I thought. He sums up the mess they're in
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Shapps, oh dear, oh dear, oh dear.

  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,245
    Jonathan said:

    May is lucky to be facing Shapps. Very weak this morning.

    The Napoleon of modern politics? Weak, vacillating, brutal, arrogant, egotistical, ambitious and incompetent, but thrashing everyone around her because remarkably they are even more useless?
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,069
    TOPPING said:

    DavidL said:

    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    Not sure that's right. It is only the lack of a clear and non-problematic alternative that is making people pause. Few would think May is actually up to the job anymore.
    And almost no one will think that Grant Shapps is or has or could identify the answer.
    Well that's just the problem, isn't it.
    If there were anyone in cabinet capable of providing leadership, May would be gone already. As it is they are all terrified of being the first to move - or indeed of inheriting reponsibility for the coming shitstorm - and so the field is left open for second rates like Shapps.

    And in the meatime, the OBR just took away Hammond's war chest.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited October 2017
    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    We're the Ed Miliband tribute act at the moment.
    Mrs May lacks vision - or she knows where she wants to go but lacks an understanding of the tools to use
  • Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 64,187
    DavidL said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    DavidL said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Must confess, I totally missed it could be him.

    One of May's few political skills is the ability to make really bitter enemies. She's really good at it.
    I'm not sure I buy (anymore) the let's wait until Brexit is over argument.

    For the reason you describe, she might be the problem.
    Unfortunately she is not "the problem". But she is not the solution either.
    If negotiations are stuck and not moving forwards, someone who can charm, sweettalk and butter up, together with offering an extra liveable concession or two, might be enough. So much of this is emotive too.

    The EU would have a bit of a pound of flesh as well, and I suspect they'd enjoy crowing a bit about the downfall of someone who was slagging them off earlier in the year, whilst it would also help them move on.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,069
    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    We're the Ed Miliband tribute act at the moment.
    Mrs May lacks vision - or she knows where she wants to go but lacks an understanding of the tools to use
    I'm not sure she even knows where she wants to go. She appears to have a reasonable facility for identifying problems, and none whatsoever for formulating solutions.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,884
    Good morning, everyone.

    F1: second practice is underway. Apparently it's quite soggy in Japan.
  • fitalassfitalass Posts: 4,558
    edited October 2017
    DavidL said:

    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    Not sure that's right. It is only the lack of a clear and non-problematic alternative that is making people pause. Few would think May is actually up to the job anymore.
    Read my second post... When both your party and the rest of the country still deem you a better alternative than the Opposition right now, then you remain in a far better position than either Gordon Brown or Jeremy Corbyn did within their party or the country at the same stage of their Leadership. This is one time when I really believe that the Conservative party and the electorate are one step ahead of the Westminster Lobby and the usual suspects here and elsewhere.

    I was one of the few Conservative supporters on here that stuck their necks out and questioned or criticised the choice of Theresa May as a suitable Leader once she was elected. And I now find it very telling that so many on here who were so quick to turn on Cameron in the run up to the Brexit vote, and who then became such huge fans of May in the early days of her Leadership are now proving to be her biggest critics on this site. Corbyn and the current Labour party are no centralist alternative to May and her Government, and neither the Conservative party or the electorate appear to be in the mood to rush off and let Corbyn and the Labour party take charge of either Brexit or the economy.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Viewcode FPT: Hungary is frequently recommended for dental work, including implants - Rod Crosby here used them and I've seen other recommendations. They are highly-organised - you can have the initial consultation in London, and everything is apparently laid on for you, including flight and stay. Obviously DYOR but they're definitely an option to consider. One outfit have a frequent half-age ad in the Metro - I'm told this is the longest-established looking for UK business.

    On topic, TM's polling looks not as bad as you might expect, with Tory voters largely loyal. The question is whether staggering on or having a divisive new leadership election will erode support more. It's genuinely unclear, but doesn't look very promising either way.

    Bulgaria is excellent, and very affordable.
    One thing that we should be very proud of in our EU membership is the way we have developed Eastern Europe as economically liberal democracies. Not perfect by a long way, but getting there.

    It is rare to hear PB so united in extolling the virtues of cheap Eastern European labour undercutting British small business.

    I would suggest this is part of "Cake and eat it" but dont think the icing sugar is good for my teeth.
    Why? Is it eu membership that enables us to to Hungary to get our teeth fixed? (The answer is no, btw).
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    We're the Ed Miliband tribute act at the moment.
    Mrs May lacks vision - or she knows where she wants to go but lacks an understanding of the tools to use
    I'm not sure she even knows where she wants to go. She appears to have a reasonable facility for identifying problems, and none whatsoever for formulating solutions.
    Identifying problems snd asking the right questions is a profoundly rare and valuable skill. Loads of people can come up with answers.

    Where May goes wrong is her lack of vision and being a terrible communicator. Sadly key skills we require in a PM.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,914
    If Grant Spiv is the best that can be found for a front man, I guess we may be in for another month or two's rudderless drift towards the edge of the world.

    Let the zombie apocalypse continue.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,297
    edited October 2017
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    We're the Ed Miliband tribute act at the moment.
    Mrs May lacks vision - or she knows where she wants to go but lacks an understanding of the tools to use
    I'm not sure she even knows where she wants to go. She appears to have a reasonable facility for identifying problems, and none whatsoever for formulating solutions.
    Yes. She doesn't know where she wants to go.

    Put her on the spot and make her tell you what she actually wants and she would explode because telling people what she actually wants is not something she has ever done.

    She is a manager. A micro manager of highly stratified HO issues few if any of which required blue sky thinking.

    Her approach as PM has been to acquiesce to what she's believes is a consensus. Her problem of course is that with Brexit there is no consensus and she as a result is out of her depth.
  • RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 30,949
    Hard at work printing agendas and past minutes etc for tonight's Stockton South CLP meeting. Always good to be able to add "Parliamentary Report" to the agenda knowing that we have a Labour MP to tell us how the constituency is being represented in Westminster.

    Whatever party or faction we belong to here, its the application of power that interests and excites us.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    How to break the stalemate over European Court
    5th October 2017
    The UK Government must either back the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) Court model or bring forward proposals for an inventive and untested new dispute resolution system for the withdrawal agreement, argues a new report.

    In Dispute Resolution after Brexit, the Institute for Government cautions against giving in to current EU demands to give the European Court of Justice (ECJ) the final say over the withdrawal agreement, as it will not be neutral in disputes between the UK and the EU.

    The report also warns, however, that if the Government tries to insulate the UK from any ECJ influence it could end up with no deal. Any dispute resolution system that challenges the ECJ’s role as final arbiter of EU law would be difficult to negotiate and would likely be struck down by the court.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/european-court-justice-brexit-stalemate-ecj
  • ThomasNasheThomasNashe Posts: 5,341
    Shapps/ Green is an excellent choice of frontman by the conspirators. He has no credibility left to lose, should the plot fail.
  • TGOHFTGOHF Posts: 21,633
    This Con voter has plenty appetite for May to rightly step down. Crap policies, strategy and presentation. Hopeless.

    Please leave of your own accord whilst you still can.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    Charles said:

    PClipp said:

    Despite the brave attempts by Fitalas to put a proper spin on things, it appears only too clear that the Conservative Party is hopelessly split. There is no sign a of a single leader who can unite them, no sign of a team who can command support from all sides.

    The whole problem goes back years, and most recently to Cameron`s attempts to use the whole country and the mechanism of a referendum to paper over the underlying cracks in the Conservative Party. They need to decide what they are for, what their principles are, and what their policies should be. For years they have used smart-alec advertising techniques to gain votes and to game elections. Shapps is one of the most guilty participants in this kind of activity. Hardly a good rallying point for them.

    Meanwhile the country deserves better. And the answer is not Labour, who effectively are just the same.

    So are your party Liberals or Social Democrats?
    What about ours?
    That's easy. We're a mixture of Tories, Conservatives, Constitutionalists, Whigs, Liberal Unionists, National Liberals and Radicals.

    Personally I'm a Liberal Unionist, but I suspect you are either a Conservative or a Constitutionalist. Not that I hold it against you :wink:
    We're the Ed Miliband tribute act at the moment.
    Mrs May lacks vision - or she knows where she wants to go but lacks an understanding of the tools to use
    I'm not sure she even knows where she wants to go. She appears to have a reasonable facility for identifying problems, and none whatsoever for formulating solutions.
    That's what I was trying to describe. She said some good things in her initial speech on appointment but then couldn't figure out the "how"
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    There.s now even a Wikipedia page on the next CON leadership election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,884
    F1: second practice over, too wet to be much use.

    Seems Sainz had a crash in first practice and will start from the back of the grid as a result.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,884
    Mr. Smithson, that's mildly amusing but don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia. It thinks Alexander the Great ruled a Greek kingdom.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited October 2017
    Ishmael_Z said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    Casino_Royale said:

    NickPalmer said:

    Viewcode FPT: Hungary is frequently recommended for dental work, including implants - Rod Crosby here used them and I've seen other recommendations. They are highly-organised - you can have the initial consultation in London, and everything is apparently laid on for you, including flight and stay. Obviously DYOR but they're definitely an option to consider. One outfit have a frequent half-age ad in the Metro - I'm told this is the longest-established looking for UK business.

    On topic, TM's polling looks not as bad as you might expect, with Tory voters largely loyal. The question is whether staggering on or having a divisive new leadership election will erode support more. It's genuinely unclear, but doesn't look very promising either way.

    Bulgaria is excellent, and very affordable.
    One thing that we should be very proud of in our EU membership is the way we have developed Eastern Europe as economically liberal democracies. Not perfect by a long way, but getting there.

    It is rare to hear PB so united in extolling the virtues of cheap Eastern European labour undercutting British small business.

    I would suggest this is part of "Cake and eat it" but dont think the icing sugar is good for my teeth.
    Why? Is it eu membership that enables us to to Hungary to get our teeth fixed? (The answer is no, btw).
    What we see in this is a desire for the benefits of globalisation, without the costs. Cake and eat it.

    If we do not compete with cheap workers then we export the jobs.

    Take Rod Crosby's Bratislavan dentistry. Cheaper than he could get in Liverpool and he was impressed with the quality too. I cannot help but wonder why Liverpool (not the wealthiest part of the UK) dentists could not do the work at the same price, thereby keeping the jobs and incomes in the local economy.

    Dentistry in England has been substantially private for years, and this sort of restorative dentistry particularly so. It is not the fault of the NHS. Certainly premises, office and staff costs are higher here, as are wages, and probably taxes. Then there is the cost of CQC compliance and a host of other bits of our government bureaucracy. I suspect there is also an element of demand exceeding supply as trained restorative dentists are in shortage due to lack of interest in training. It is not just decayed teeth that are the British disease.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    MikeSmithson said:

    There.s now even a Wikipedia page on the next CON leadership election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election

    Grant Shapps?
  • ydoethurydoethur Posts: 75,245
    CarlottaVance said:

    How to break the stalemate over European Court
    5th October 2017
    The UK Government must either back the European Free Trade Association (EFTA) Court model or bring forward proposals for an inventive and untested new dispute resolution system for the withdrawal agreement, argues a new report.

    In Dispute Resolution after Brexit, the Institute for Government cautions against giving in to current EU demands to give the European Court of Justice (ECJ) the final say over the withdrawal agreement, as it will not be neutral in disputes between the UK and the EU.

    The report also warns, however, that if the Government tries to insulate the UK from any ECJ influence it could end up with no deal. Any dispute resolution system that challenges the ECJ’s role as final arbiter of EU law would be difficult to negotiate and would likely be struck down by the court.

    https://www.instituteforgovernment.org.uk/news/latest/european-court-justice-brexit-stalemate-ecj

    Would anyone pay any attention to it though? The ECJ is a real paper tiger or maybe Violet Elizabeth - it screams and screams and stamps its foot, but it has no actual powers of enforcement and is generally ignored when its rulings do not suit those with actual power. Cf Juncker over taxes and Barnier over beef ban fines.

    I am opposed, on principle, to giving the ECJ any role in Britain after Brexit, and ironically I suspect any role it has would weaken - not strengthen - the rights of EU citizens here as the British courts at least have the power to act. But let's not run away with the idea that it's a significant body.

    I have to go. Have a good morning.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    CarlottaVance said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    There.s now even a Wikipedia page on the next CON leadership election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election

    Grant Shapps?
    Setup in June by user ToryGreen84
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Mr. Smithson, that's mildly amusing but don't believe everything you read on Wikipedia. It thinks Alexander the Great ruled a Greek kingdom.

    I'm surprised you've let that stand
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    CarlottaVance said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    There.s now even a Wikipedia page on the next CON leadership election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election

    Grant Shapps?
    'Set up a Wikipedia page' was in Michael Green's 'How to topple a Prime Minister' guide.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Jonathan said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    There.s now even a Wikipedia page on the next CON leadership election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election

    Grant Shapps?
    Setup in June by user ToryGreen84
    Tory Michael Green?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,884
    edited October 2017
    Mr. Charles, I don't get involved trying to edit Wikipedia. It's of some use as a resource but cannot be taken as gospel, and those who think it can should get hold of some primary sources and do some reading.

    Although now you've mentioned it, I may blog about the error.

    Edited extra bit: ahem, I already have: http://thaddeusthesixth.blogspot.co.uk/2014/05/historical-revisionism.html
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 22,107
    Charles said:

    Jonathan said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    MikeSmithson said:

    There.s now even a Wikipedia page on the next CON leadership election.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Next_Conservative_Party_(UK)_leadership_election

    Grant Shapps?
    Setup in June by user ToryGreen84
    Tory Michael Green?
    Doent look like it, Green just an amusing coincidence.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,328
    edited October 2017
    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,884
    Mr. Mortimer, keeps the story going, though.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/election_data/status/916194760263684098
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited October 2017
    I genuinely don't know about Mrs May. On the one hand, it's not ideal to go through what will be a volatile few years with a leader with no vision. On the other, would the country forgive us for having a leadership election in the middle of Brexit?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Mortimer said:

    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....

    They do have the numbers, which is why Theresa May can't sack anyone despite the siren calls of her dimmer supporters. What they do not have is an agreed successor, which is why the Prime Minister is safe for as long as she wants to hang on.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,968
    DavidL said:

    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    Not sure that's right. It is only the lack of a clear and non-problematic alternative that is making people pause. Few would think May is actually up to the job anymore.
    Theresa of the north pops up from CCHQ
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    RoyalBlue said:

    I genuinely don't know about Mrs May. On the one hand, it's not ideal to go through what will be a volatile few years with a leader with no vision. On the other, would the country forgive us for having a leadership election in the middle of Brexit?

    We had a general election in the middle of Brexit.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,328
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....

    They do have the numbers, which is why Theresa May can't sack anyone despite the siren calls of her dimmer supporters. What they do not have is an agreed successor, which is why the Prime Minister is safe for as long as she wants to hang on.
    Tosh, I'm afraid.

    If they had the numbers to get rid of her, the letters would have gone in. Instead of this hilarious botched Shapp's attempt.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,722
    edited October 2017
    Mortimer said:

    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....

    They do have the numbers, it is just a matter of when to deploy.

    Shapps is very credible. He is close to both the Cameroons and David Davis. Plus he personally knows a lot of MPs well, from his time as Chairman, a lot of MPs owe him for getting them elected.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,328
    RoyalBlue said:

    I genuinely don't know about Mrs May. On the one hand, it's not ideal to go through what will be a volatile few years with a leader with no vision. On the other, would the country forgive us for having a leadership election in the middle of Brexit?

    My feelings exactly Mr Blue.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 44,297
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    I genuinely don't know about Mrs May. On the one hand, it's not ideal to go through what will be a volatile few years with a leader with no vision. On the other, would the country forgive us for having a leadership election in the middle of Brexit?

    We had a general election in the middle of Brexit.
    And might well have another one if the Cons go for a change in leader now.

    How do you suppose that will turn out?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 44,968
    fitalass said:

    DavidL said:

    fitalass said:

    Sorry Mike, but there just is no appetite for a change of Conservative Leader right now despite the demand for change being generated by the Westminster Lobby or the betting fraternity.

    Not sure that's right. It is only the lack of a clear and non-problematic alternative that is making people pause. Few would think May is actually up to the job anymore.
    Read my second post... When both your party and the rest of the country still deem you a better alternative than the Opposition right now, then you remain in a far better position than either Gordon Brown or Jeremy Corbyn did within their party or the country at the same stage of their Leadership. This is one time when I really believe that the Conservative party and the electorate are one step ahead of the Westminster Lobby and the usual suspects here and elsewhere.

    I was one of the few Conservative supporters on here that stuck their necks out and questioned or criticised the choice of Theresa May as a suitable Leader once she was elected. And I now find it very telling that so many on here who were so quick to turn on Cameron in the run up to the Brexit vote, and who then became such huge fans of May in the early days of her Leadership are now proving to be her biggest critics on this site. Corbyn and the current Labour party are no centralist alternative to May and her Government, and neither the Conservative party or the electorate appear to be in the mood to rush off and let Corbyn and the Labour party take charge of either Brexit or the economy.
    LOL, next you will be telling us windbag Davidson is the future
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,328
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Mortimer said:

    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....

    They do have the numbers, it is just a matter of when to deploy.

    Shapps is very credible. He is close to both the Cameroons and David Davis. Plus he personally knows a lot of MPs well, from his time as Chairman, a lot of MPs owe him for getting elected.
    Nah, she'd be gone if they had the numbers.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    How does that 39% break down by party? If it is the usual partisan split, that looks like almost all Tories support her.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,722
    Casino_Royale said:

    Must confess, I totally missed it could be him.

    I did say the other day keep your eye on Grant Shapps. He has history with Mrs May.
  • ElliotElliot Posts: 1,516
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    I genuinely don't know about Mrs May. On the one hand, it's not ideal to go through what will be a volatile few years with a leader with no vision. On the other, would the country forgive us for having a leadership election in the middle of Brexit?

    We had a general election in the middle of Brexit.
    Which is even more reason for not doing a leadership election too, not less.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,884
    F1: waiting for markets to emerge. Got a couple of early ideas, but we'll see how the numbers look.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Mortimer said:

    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....

    Shapps is very credible.
    I take it you didn't hear him on R4 this morning?

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    Mortimer said:

    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....

    They do have the numbers, which is why Theresa May can't sack anyone despite the siren calls of her dimmer supporters. What they do not have is an agreed successor, which is why the Prime Minister is safe for as long as she wants to hang on.
    Does anyone really want to be passed the poisoned chalice? to be the burnt offering on the altar of Brexit? I think that most would prefer to take the role in the resurrection, rather than the calvary. The only exception would be the true zealots like JRM.

    (Enough mixed biblical metaphors methinks :))
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,722
    edited October 2017
    Mortimer said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Mortimer said:

    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....

    They do have the numbers, it is just a matter of when to deploy.

    Shapps is very credible. He is close to both the Cameroons and David Davis. Plus he personally knows a lot of MPs well, from his time as Chairman, a lot of MPs owe him for getting elected.
    Nah, she'd be gone if they had the numbers.
    They just want to make sure Boris isn’t her successor, conference seemed to confirm it.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    Charles Walker

    'Number 10 must be delighted to hear that Grant Shapps is leading this.....its a coalition of the disappointed.....it does not reflect well on them'
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,328
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Mortimer said:

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    Mortimer said:

    Two thoughts:

    - They dont have the numbers, hence the noise.
    - Shapps leading a challenge doesn't add to its credibility.....

    They do have the numbers, it is just a matter of when to deploy.

    Shapps is very credible. He is close to both the Cameroons and David Davis. Plus he personally knows a lot of MPs well, from his time as Chairman, a lot of MPs owe him for getting elected.
    Nah, she'd be gone if they had the numbers.
    They just want to make sure Boris isn’t her successor.
    Gosh they need to grow up.

    Tories giving democracy a bad name.

    This is what kills the party.

    Plotters.

    Idiots.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    CarlottaVance said:

    'Number 10 must be delighted to hear that Grant Shapps is leading this.....'

    Implying the plotters have more credible figureheads they could have chosen.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    Elliot said:

    DecrepitJohnL said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    I genuinely don't know about Mrs May. On the one hand, it's not ideal to go through what will be a volatile few years with a leader with no vision. On the other, would the country forgive us for having a leadership election in the middle of Brexit?

    We had a general election in the middle of Brexit.
    Which is even more reason for not doing a leadership election too, not less.
    No, it shows it really does not matter at all. We've also had the party conferences in the middle of Brexit. Of all the reasons for Theresa May continuing in post, the idea that there is no time to find a successor is the most fatuous.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,722
    I feel it in my waters that she’ll be ousted soon.

    Or it might just be the cold weather.
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,422
    John Pienar R4 - this will fizzle on, not fizzle out, but Mrs May will soldier on for the time being.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,884
    edited October 2017
    Betting Post

    F1: probably be a while until the markets properly get going but saw something on the Ladbrokes Exchange that I thought too long. It's a special, 17 on every Mercedes-powered car to finish in the points. Of those cars, 4/6 have excellent reliability, the Williams is still reasonably reliable, and they all scored points last year.

    Not saying it's odds on, just that 17 is too long. Also, Sainz has a large penalty, which may well help.

    Edited extra bit: pre-qualifying ramble will be up when the markets permit.
  • alex.alex. Posts: 4,658
    edited October 2017
    Just a thought - what would happen if May called a pre-emptive confidence vote? (she can of course do that simply by getting 48 supportive MPs to write letters). That would be the obvious step if it was believed that a faction was holding on to 48 opposition letters waiting to deploy at a moment of their choosing.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,328
    alex. said:

    Just a thought - what would happen if May called a pre-emptive confidence vote? (she can of course do that simply by getting 48 supportive MPs to write letters).

    If she called it, I'd expect her to win it.

  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 56,314
    edited October 2017
    Paranoia from posh boy Boris's number one fan.
    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/916194134259531776
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,722
    alex. said:

    Just a thought - what would happen if May called a pre-emptive confidence vote? (she can of course do that simply by getting 48 supportive MPs to write letters). That would be the obvious step if it was believed that a faction was holding on to 48 opposition letters waiting to deploy at a moment of their choosing.

    She’d technically win but be fatally damaged by the number who voted against her.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 81,069
    Morris_Dancer said:

    Betting Post

    F1: probably be a while until the markets properly get going but saw something on the Ladbrokes Exchange that I thought too long. It's a special, 17 on every Mercedes-powered car to finish in the points. Of those cars, 4/6 have excellent reliability, the Williams is still reasonably reliable, and they all scored points last year.

    Not saying it's odds on, just that 17 is too long. Also, Sainz has a large penalty, which may well help...

    Mechanically, you're right, Mr.D.
    This is Suzuka, though....
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 123,722
    williamglenn said:

    https://twitter.com/NadineDorries/status/916194134259531776

    She’s thick as mince. Leavers have joined in the ousting too.
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