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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » A move against TMay needs to happen in next few days if a succ

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  • I see that Granty boy has been linked to a plot against May gathering signatures.

    Are three of the signatures Grant Shapps, Michael Green and Sebastian Fox?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited October 2017
    Pong said:

    May & Hammond f*cked.

    See the FT.

    Odds on she'll be gone by xmas, IMO.

    I think the value may be in 2018 Q1, allowing for the time needed for a contest.
  • kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    That's a ridiculous comparison. We are not short of catfood; we are short of viable organs for transplant.

    The end justifies the means, eh?
    Often, yes. But it doesn't mean always, there's a balance. We're just arguing over where the line is.
    Actually, we're not arguing that. Some of us - Casino and myself, for example - think that there is no balance, that there is an absolute principle at stake

    It seems very odd to argue, as the government apparently now does, that there's a 'balance' to be struck on regarding your body as a source of spare parts, but no 'balance' to be struck between the horror of a lingering, painful, undignified and certain death, and the well-known reasons for making assisted dying a criminal offence.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,287
    Drutt said:

    welshowl said:

    dr_spyn said:

    If the PM sacks her, will it be a rudderless government?
    You can imagine the conversations in cabinet. "Will you tiller or shall I?"
    Are we going to spend all night with various pb'ers sticking their oar in on dreadful puns?
    Total and utter rowlocks
    Such efforts are likely to earn a stern rebuke.
    Take a bow.
    Pull in your oars, you lot - this is no way to run a tight ship.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    RoyalBlue said:

    Or in practical terms, you would rather that people die than a dead body be deprived of something for which it has no further use.

    Might as well mince up the dead and use them as catfood, then. That would be a carbon-efficient recycling for those chunks of organic compounds which the former owner no longer needs.
    Are you against the existing opt-in system?
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763
    IanB2 said:

    Drutt said:

    welshowl said:

    dr_spyn said:

    If the PM sacks her, will it be a rudderless government?
    You can imagine the conversations in cabinet. "Will you tiller or shall I?"
    Are we going to spend all night with various pb'ers sticking their oar in on dreadful puns?
    Total and utter rowlocks
    Such efforts are likely to earn a stern rebuke.
    Take a bow.
    Pull in your oars, you lot - this is no way to run a tight ship.
    Titantic effort.
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited October 2017

    Are you against the existing opt-in system?

    No, of course not.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    edited October 2017


    No, of course not.

    So you'd be in favour of an opt-in system for the government to mince up the dead and use them as catfood?
  • So you'd be in favour of an opt-in system for the government to mince up the dead and use them as catfood?

    I'm a Conservative, why would I want to create a new nationalised industry?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    That's a ridiculous comparison. We are not short of catfood; we are short of viable organs for transplant.

    The end justifies the means, eh?
    Often, yes. But it doesn't mean always, there's a balance. We're just arguing over where the line is.
    Actually, we're not arguing that. Some of us - Casino and myself, for example - think that there is no balance, that there is an absolute principle at stake

    It seems very odd to argue, as the government apparently now does, that there's a 'balance' to be struck on regarding your body as a source of spare parts, but no 'balance' to be struck between the horror of a lingering, painful, undignified and certain death, and the well-known reasons for making assisted dying a criminal offence.
    If those in need (e.g. people in renal failure) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (kidney of dead person), why should not people in need (homeless people) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (empty second home), and why should not people in need (the poor) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (money sitting in richer people's bank accounts), etc...? Even if you're not at all spiritual, it is a very slippery slope.

    For anyone who believes that their is a dignity in both life and death, it is not, as Mr Nabavi says, an issue of balance. It is simply a line that should not be crossed.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    So you'd be in favour of an opt-in system for the government to mince up the dead and use them as catfood?

    I'm a Conservative, why would I want to create a new nationalised industry?
    My point is that your objections don't seem to have anything to do with whether it's opt-out or opt-in. Like this:

    It seems very odd to argue, as the government apparently now does, that there's a 'balance' to be struck on regarding your body as a source of spare parts...

    How is an opt-in system any less regarding your body as a source of spare parts?
  • dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Thank you.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763

    So you'd be in favour of an opt-in system for the government to mince up the dead and use them as catfood?

    I'm a Conservative, why would I want to create a new nationalised industry?
    Give you something to complain about?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Grant Schapps wants TM out
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    She's out isn't she. Can't buck headlines like that. Whatever pride she has left will dictate.

    So great, another 3 months of drift and conservative infighting.
  • Jonathan said:

    So you'd be in favour of an opt-in system for the government to mince up the dead and use them as catfood?

    I'm a Conservative, why would I want to create a new nationalised industry?
    Give you something to complain about?
    Bravo!
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    That's a ridiculous comparison. We are not short of catfood; we are short of viable organs for transplant.

    The end justifies the means, eh?
    Often, yes. But it doesn't mean always, there's a balance. We're just arguing over where the line is.
    Actually, we're not arguing that. Some of us - Casino and myself, for example - think that there is no balance, that there is an absolute principle at stake

    It seems very odd to argue, as the government apparently now does, that there's a 'balance' to be struck on regarding your body as a source of spare parts, but no 'balance' to be struck between the horror of a lingering, painful, undignified and certain death, and the well-known reasons for making assisted dying a criminal offence.
    If those in need (e.g. people in renal failure) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (kidney of dead person), why should not people in need (homeless people) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (empty second home), and why should not people in need (the poor) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (money sitting in richer people's bank accounts), etc...? Even if you're not at all spiritual, it is a very slippery slope.

    For anyone who believes that their is a dignity in both life and death, it is not, as Mr Nabavi says, an issue of balance. It is simply a line that should not be crossed.
    Sorry, did "opt-out" get redefined to mean "mandatory" while I wasn't looking?
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    MTimT said:

    "The only question being asked that matters in British - nay European - politics tonight: does Mrs May survive?"

    No wonder the Europeans get pissed of with us from time to time. Does Mr Neil not consider that "WTF is going to happen in Catalonia that we'll be forced to take a position on sooner or later even though we really really wish it would just go away?" might matter a bit more to Europeans other than those living on these sceptered isles?

    Indeed.Not to mention Macron confronting strikers, Germans having no govt. till next year, etc.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    That's a ridiculous comparison. We are not short of catfood; we are short of viable organs for transplant.

    The end justifies the means, eh?
    Often, yes. But it doesn't mean always, there's a balance. We're just arguing over where the line is.
    Actually, we're not arguing that. Some of us - Casino and myself, for example - think that there is no balance, that there is an absolute principle at stake

    It seems very odd to argue, as the government apparently now does, that there's a 'balance' to be struck on regarding your body as a source of spare parts, but no 'balance' to be struck between the horror of a lingering, painful, undignified and certain death, and the well-known reasons for making assisted dying a criminal offence.
    Nice whataboutery!

    I hope you never need a transplant. At least if you do, someone with a different attitude might have helped you, and you can live safe in the knowledge that you will never do the same.

    Everyone still has that choice, even with this reform.
  • dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Thank you.
    Personally, I usually try to be gruntled rather than disgruntled.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    MTimT said:

    "The only question being asked that matters in British - nay European - politics tonight: does Mrs May survive?"

    No wonder the Europeans get pissed of with us from time to time. Does Mr Neil not consider that "WTF is going to happen in Catalonia that we'll be forced to take a position on sooner or later even though we really really wish it would just go away?" might matter a bit more to Europeans other than those living on these sceptered isles?

    Yes, because mainland europeans never take an insular view of things, or engage in hyperbolistic reporting of domestic events, it is such a uniquely British trait.

    Hmm, top political story in Le Monde is about Macron merging three departments with the greater paris metroplis if google translate is anything to go by. Another one is about French MEPs and some controvesy over the european flag. The top political on de spiegal seems to be about Merkel's challenge in forming a coalition.

    No no, that cannot be - if a mere commentator in Britain is unusual to take a british centric view, the continent's papers online sites surely would only lead with the real lead stories.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    GIN1138 said:

    I'm certain Philip and Tezza will reach the decision together. Don't think there will be any need for blood-letting to try and get her out... She'll stand down and that'll be it.

    The blood-letting will be in the contest that follows.
    Is it bin night!!
  • How is an opt-in system any less regarding your body as a source of spare parts?

    Because there's a massive distinction between you donating your body as a source of spare parts, and the state grabbing your body, without your consent, as a source of spare parts. I wouldn't have thought that this distinction would be hard to appreciate.
  • MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    edited October 2017

    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    That's a ridiculous comparison. We are not short of catfood; we are short of viable organs for transplant.

    The end justifies the means, eh?
    Often, yes. But it doesn't mean always, there's a balance. We're just arguing over where the line is.
    Actually, we're not arguing that. Some of us - Casino and myself, for example - think that there is no balance, that there is an absolute principle at stake

    It seems very odd to argue, as the government apparently now does, that there's a 'balance' to be struck on regarding your body as a source of spare parts, but no 'balance' to be struck between the horror of a lingering, painful, undignified and certain death, and the well-known reasons for making assisted dying a criminal offence.
    If those in need (e.g. people in renal failure) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (kidney of dead person), why should not people in need (homeless people) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (empty second home), and why should not people in need (the poor) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (money sitting in richer people's bank accounts), etc...? Even if you're not at all spiritual, it is a very slippery slope.

    For anyone who believes that their is a dignity in both life and death, it is not, as Mr Nabavi says, an issue of balance. It is simply a line that should not be crossed.
    Sorry, did "opt-out" get redefined to mean "mandatory" while I wasn't looking?
    How soon before the government opts out of the opt out?

    Charity is something that is given, not appropriated unless opted out of.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    GIN1138 said:

    I'm certain Philip and Tezza will reach the decision together. Don't think there will be any need for blood-letting to try and get her out... She'll stand down and that'll be it.

    The blood-letting will be in the contest that follows.
    Is it bin night!!
    In Yorkshire accent


    Aye for abart 5 hours
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    edited October 2017

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    That's a ridiculous comparison. We are not short of catfood; we are short of viable organs for transplant.

    The end justifies the means, eh?
    Often, yes. But it doesn't mean always, there's a balance. We're just arguing over where the line is.
    Actually, we're not arguing that. Some of us - Casino and myself, for example - think that there is no balance, that there is an absolute principle at stake
    .
    Actually we are arguing that. The balance to which i was referring was the balance of determining whether the end justifies the means. All of us have something we support which others regard as an absolute principle which must not be crossed, but we consider the ends achieved to justify the means it took. Your line does not cross this issue, but something you believe in will be too much for somebody else, even if it is perhaps a belief that we should not be doing something which others regard as a moral imperative and they would judge you for thinking it is optional.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    MTimT said:

    MTimT said:

    kle4 said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    That's a ridiculous comparison. We are not short of catfood; we are short of viable organs for transplant.

    The end justifies the means, eh?
    Often, yes. But it doesn't mean always, there's a balance. We're just arguing over where the line is.
    Actually, we're not arguing that. Some of us - Casino and myself, for example - think that there is no balance, that there is an absolute principle at stake

    It seems very odd to argue, as the government apparently now does, that there's a 'balance' to be struck on regarding your body as a source of spare parts, but no 'balance' to be struck between the horror of a lingering, painful, undignified and certain death, and the well-known reasons for making assisted dying a criminal offence.
    If those in need (e.g. people in renal failure) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (kidney of dead person), why should not people in need (homeless people) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (empty second home), and why should not people in need (the poor) have the right to appropriate what's not being used (money sitting in richer people's bank accounts), etc...? Even if you're not at all spiritual, it is a very slippery slope.

    For anyone who believes that their is a dignity in both life and death, it is not, as Mr Nabavi says, an issue of balance. It is simply a line that should not be crossed.
    Sorry, did "opt-out" get redefined to mean "mandatory" while I wasn't looking?
    How soon before the government opts out of the opt out?

    Charity is something that is given, not appropriated unless opted out of.
    Evidence please. How many countries don't let you opt out?
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited October 2017
    RoyalBlue said:

    I hope you never need a transplant. At least if you do, someone with a different attitude might have helped you, and you can live safe in the knowledge that you will never do the same..

    In that circumstance I'd be very grateful if someone had consciously decided to help me. I'd be very queasy indeed to discover that, actually, the person hadn't wanted to help me, but my agents had helped themselves on my behalf all the same.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,733

    dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Thank you.
    Personally, I usually try to be gruntled rather than disgruntled.
    I try to be both shevelled and kempt whilst maintaining achronism.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    Is Labour under Corbyn gaining traction? The Tories regularly get 40% in polls and the Labour lead is tiny -only 1% in the latest Yougov.

    Prime ministers fall for many reasons. Asquith and Chamberlain went because they were not good war leaders. Eden went because of Suez. Thatcher went because of the Poll Tax.

    Is May going to be deposed now (the election was four months ago) because she had a cough, security at the party conference allowed a comedian to approach her, and some letters dropped off a wall?

    The Tories had better choose wisely because they might get an even worse leader. None of the cabinet would be any good.

  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Thank you.
    Personally, I usually try to be gruntled rather than disgruntled.
    I refer to my answer some moments ago!

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=gruntle
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    Hope springs eternal - it looks increasingly as if there might be agreement between both parties in Congress - not to mention the NRA - to make bump stocks illegal.

    Ownership of fully automatic weapons is illegal, with few exceptions. Use of a bump stock on a semi-automatic weapon makes it effectively an automatic weapon. They are legal currently because they do not physically modify the weapon.

    I have shot a weapon with a bump stock on a range. To say it's exhilarating is a severe understatement.

    https://lifehacker.com/what-is-a-bump-stock-and-why-is-it-so-dangerous-1819180018
  • Grant Schapps wants TM out

    And a few others but not enough by a long way. Remind me, how many labour MPs wanted Corbyn out - was it 172 off
  • kle4 said:

    Actually we are arguing that. The balance to which i was referring was the balance of determining whether the end justifies the means. All of us have something we support which others regard as an absolute principle which must not be crossed, but we consider the ends achieved to justify the means it took. Your line does not cross this issue, but something you believe in will be too much for somebody else, even if it is perhaps a belief that we should not be doing something which others regard as a moral imperative and they would judge you for thinking it is optional.

    OK, fair enough.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    edited October 2017
    edit
  • dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Thank you.
    Personally, I usually try to be gruntled rather than disgruntled.
    I refer to my answer some moments ago!

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=gruntle
    Thank you! I have only ever come across it in PG Wodehouse.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,717
    dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Pity any halfwit that even imagines it could happen
  • stevef said:

    Is Labour under Corbyn gaining traction? The Tories regularly get 40% in polls and the Labour lead is tiny -only 1% in the latest Yougov.

    Prime ministers fall for many reasons. Asquith and Chamberlain went because they were not good war leaders. Eden went because of Suez. Thatcher went because of the Poll Tax.

    Is May going to be deposed now (the election was four months ago) because she had a cough, security at the party conference allowed a comedian to approach her, and some letters dropped off a wall?

    The Tories had better choose wisely because they might get an even worse leader. None of the cabinet would be any good.

    The latest YouGov gives Labour a 4% lead.
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    I hope you never need a transplant. At least if you do, someone with a different attitude might have helped you, and you can live safe in the knowledge that you will never do the same..

    In that circumstance I'd be very grateful if someone had consciously decided to help me. I'd be very queasy indeed to discover that, actually, the person hadn't wanted to help me, but my agents had helped themselves on my behalf all the same.
    But that person has the freedom not to help you, and still does with the reform!

    The integrity of your future corpse is obviously important to you. Fine. We are (or should be) a free country, and you should have the absolute unquestioned right to insist on it. However, I don't see why your preference should guide government policy.

    Nobody is prevented from doing what they want by this change, and more people will live longer and healthier lives. I count that as a win.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    edited October 2017

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Thank you.
    Personally, I usually try to be gruntled rather than disgruntled.
    I refer to my answer some moments ago!

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?allowed_in_frame=0&search=gruntle
    Thank you! I have only ever come across it in PG Wodehouse.
    Always willing to help on matters of word derivation, accents, turn of phrase, etc. Spend far more time than is considered normal by anyone at all on that site.

    Realise it is not the usual PB practicality of legal, financial and technology advice. But it keeps me out of bother...
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited October 2017

    Pong said:

    May & Hammond f*cked.

    See the FT.

    Odds on she'll be gone by xmas, IMO.

    I think the value may be in 2018 Q1, allowing for the time needed for a contest.
    Sure - I should have been clearer - IMO, evens she'll have announced her resignation within 3 mths and be gone within 6.

    A delayed resignation is probable (although that makes "health grounds" as her justification, problematic).

    Be careful betting on exit dates.

    If it doesn't come to a head now, it's likely to come with the budget.

    The accounts look horrible. Are the tories really going to end austerity for non-tory voters? I struggle to see how the books balance with the ideological coalition that is keeping her in power.

    50/50 she'll survive.
  • Tracey crouch PM
  • edmundintokyoedmundintokyo Posts: 17,709
    Tim_B said:

    Hope springs eternal - it looks increasingly as if there might be agreement between both parties in Congress - not to mention the NRA - to make bump stocks illegal.

    Ownership of fully automatic weapons is illegal, with few exceptions. Use of a bump stock on a semi-automatic weapon makes it effectively an automatic weapon. They are legal currently because they do not physically modify the weapon.

    I have shot a weapon with a bump stock on a range. To say it's exhilarating is a severe understatement.

    https://lifehacker.com/what-is-a-bump-stock-and-why-is-it-so-dangerous-1819180018

    You could 3D print these, presumably.
  • RoyalBlue said:

    But that person has the freedom not to help you, and still does with the reform!

    The integrity of your future corpse is obviously important to you. Fine. We are (or should be) a free country, and you should have the absolute unquestioned right to insist on it. However, I don't see why your preference should guide government policy.

    Nobody is prevented from doing what they want by this change, and more people will live longer and healthier lives. I count that as a win.

    The integrity of my future corpse isn't actually important to me, although I'd like there to be an identifiable location for the bulk of it. I'd happily spare a few bits if they would be of use, although at my age I think they wouldn't.

    What is important to me is the principle of consent.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    stevef said:

    Is Labour under Corbyn gaining traction? The Tories regularly get 40% in polls and the Labour lead is tiny -only 1% in the latest Yougov.

    Prime ministers fall for many reasons. Asquith and Chamberlain went because they were not good war leaders. Eden went because of Suez. Thatcher went because of the Poll Tax.

    Is May going to be deposed now (the election was four months ago) because she had a cough, security at the party conference allowed a comedian to approach her, and some letters dropped off a wall?

    The Tories had better choose wisely because they might get an even worse leader. None of the cabinet would be any good.

    The latest YouGov gives Labour a 4% lead.

    Grant Schapps wants TM out

    And a few others but not enough by a long way. Remind me, how many labour MPs wanted Corbyn out - was it 172 off
    Not sure but he subsequently won a massive majority 0with members and increased the Labour vote by biggest percentage since 1945.

    TM called an election and lost her majority.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Tim_B said:

    Hope springs eternal - it looks increasingly as if there might be agreement between both parties in Congress - not to mention the NRA - to make bump stocks illegal.

    Ownership of fully automatic weapons is illegal, with few exceptions. Use of a bump stock on a semi-automatic weapon makes it effectively an automatic weapon. They are legal currently because they do not physically modify the weapon.

    I have shot a weapon with a bump stock on a range. To say it's exhilarating is a severe understatement.

    https://lifehacker.com/what-is-a-bump-stock-and-why-is-it-so-dangerous-1819180018

    You could 3D print these, presumably.
    You could 3d print the parts, but you'd still have to assemble them, and the device would still be illegal.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    stevef said:

    Is Labour under Corbyn gaining traction? The Tories regularly get 40% in polls and the Labour lead is tiny -only 1% in the latest Yougov.

    Prime ministers fall for many reasons. Asquith and Chamberlain went because they were not good war leaders. Eden went because of Suez. Thatcher went because of the Poll Tax.

    Is May going to be deposed now (the election was four months ago) because she had a cough, security at the party conference allowed a comedian to approach her, and some letters dropped off a wall?

    The Tories had better choose wisely because they might get an even worse leader. None of the cabinet would be any good.

    She will be deposed for her lack of direction and inability to control her cabinet.

    The speech was just the point where it all came to a head.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    edited October 2017
    At least tonight has seen a lively debate on organ donation and opt outs.

    And yet here in Wales it has been in place since December 2015 and more organs have been donated and more lives saved. To those who object ask how they would feel if an organ donation could save their nearest and dearest.
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    How is an opt-in system any less regarding your body as a source of spare parts?

    Because there's a massive distinction between you donating your body as a source of spare parts, and the state grabbing your body, without your consent, as a source of spare parts. I wouldn't have thought that this distinction would be hard to appreciate.
    It's not hard to appreciate, but as I said, your previous posts weren't talking about that distinction. The one I quoted, and the catfood one, only made sense if the idea of the government regarding you as spare parts was what worried you. They had absolutely nothing to do with consent. So I was just trying to understand whether there was any kind of coherent thread to your complaints.
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078
    edited October 2017
    Those who are backing Rudd in the next Tory leader market need to re-evaluate and listen to Eddie Mair ripping her to shreds just like he did Boris Johnson.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b097596s
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    edited October 2017

    RoyalBlue said:

    But that person has the freedom not to help you, and still does with the reform!

    The integrity of your future corpse is obviously important to you snip

    Nobody is prevented from doing what they want by this change, and more people will live longer and healthier lives. I count that as a win.

    The integrity of my future corpse isn't actually important to me, although I'd like there to be an identifiable location for the bulk of it. I'd happily spare a few bits if they would be of use, although at my age I think they wouldn't.

    What is important to me is the principle of consent.
    It's a pity your fine brain couldn't be reused :smile:

    I understand your stance; let's agree to disagree. Thanks for the argument!

    *hugs*
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited October 2017
    Adur - Mash Barn

    Labour 490
    Con 384
    LD 89
    Grn 31

    Lab gain from UKIP (who didn't even field a candidate)
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    dixiedean said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    Or in practical terms, you would rather that people die than a dead body be deprived of something for which it has no further use.

    Might as well mince up the dead and use them as catfood, then. That would be a carbon-efficient recycling for those chunks of organic compounds which the former owner no longer needs.
    Think we have a philosophical argument here. I would be happy to be cat food. I would have a sky burial. I see my body as a complex series of organic compounds I temporarily utilise.
    I realise others may differ.
    Yep, same here. I'm basically indifferent to what happens to my body when I'm dead, but if it can be used for someone, that's great. The balance of interest seems to lie with people who need organs, so long as those who object have the right to forbid it: people who can't be bothered to record a view can reasonably be assumed not to have acquired a view after death.

    I tried to introduce this when I was in Parliament, and the Government is right on this one, in my opinion. In fact recent Government moves on several issues seem pleasantly social democratic, as though TM had appointed EdM to advise.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    How is an opt-in system any less regarding your body as a source of spare parts?

    Because there's a massive distinction between you donating your body as a source of spare parts, and the state grabbing your body, without your consent, as a source of spare parts. I wouldn't have thought that this distinction would be hard to appreciate.
    It's not hard to appreciate, but as I said, your previous posts weren't talking about that distinction. The one I quoted, and the catfood one, only made sense if the idea of the government regarding you as spare parts was what worried you. They had absolutely nothing to do with consent. So I was just trying to understand whether there was any kind of coherent thread to your complaints.
    There is a third possibility, if you neither donate your body, nor the state grabs it -

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/northamerica/usa/1506150/Alistair-Cookes-bones-stolen-by-transplant-gang.html
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092
    MTimT said:


    How soon before the government opts out of the opt out?

    Yeah, and if we give medicine to sick people, how long before we start giving it to healthy people?
  • How is an opt-in system any less regarding your body as a source of spare parts?

    Because there's a massive distinction between you donating your body as a source of spare parts, and the state grabbing your body, without your consent, as a source of spare parts. I wouldn't have thought that this distinction would be hard to appreciate.
    It's not hard to appreciate, but as I said, your previous posts weren't talking about that distinction. The one I quoted, and the catfood one, only made sense if the idea of the government regarding you as spare parts was what worried you. They had absolutely nothing to do with consent. So I was just trying to understand whether there was any kind of coherent thread to your complaints.
    Not so. The catfood argument was an answer to the point that the bits of the body might be useful and save lives. Yes, of course I know that, but it's not an answer to the principled objection about consent.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Lab Gain Mash Barn


    4th to 1st
  • StereotomyStereotomy Posts: 4,092

    RoyalBlue said:

    But that person has the freedom not to help you, and still does with the reform!

    The integrity of your future corpse is obviously important to you. Fine. We are (or should be) a free country, and you should have the absolute unquestioned right to insist on it. However, I don't see why your preference should guide government policy.

    Nobody is prevented from doing what they want by this change, and more people will live longer and healthier lives. I count that as a win.

    The integrity of my future corpse isn't actually important to me, although I'd like there to be an identifiable location for the bulk of it. I'd happily spare a few bits if they would be of use, although at my age I think they wouldn't.

    What is important to me is the principle of consent.
    Did you opt-in?
  • Earlier today I signed my Will, and got the forms to donate my remains to the Oxford University Pathology people. it's an incredibly complicated process. Let's put it this way, like most beautiful women, they are not exactly desperate to get their hands on my body.....
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    Adur - Mash Barn

    Labour 490
    Con 384
    LD 89
    Grn 31

    Lab gain from UKIP (who didn't even field a candidate)

    4th last time to 1st
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    This is all a bit morbid. Shall we talk about AV?
  • AndreaParma_82AndreaParma_82 Posts: 4,714
    edited October 2017
    Salford - Claremont

    Lab 718
    Con 447
    Ind 171
    LD 162
    Gr 46

    Lab hold
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,733
    edited October 2017

    I'm furious about this opt-out for organs. A Conservative Government nationalising our bodies after we die.

    I only expect that sort of shit from the Left.

    That alone should be reason to topple May.

    I'm not a libertarian, although I have a certain admiration for those rare individuals who can consistently apply the principles. However, you raise a point that I meant to raise with you earlier. The Atlanticist, Thatcherite, low-tax, rational economics, small-government, free-trade principles that you generally espouse don't really have a home in the modern Conservative party. It's got Christian Democrats at one end, interfering busybodies (with the best of motives, naturally) who like spending your money for the greater good, and National Conservative small-towners who are suspicious of outsiders at the other end. We've had seven years of this now, the debt isn't going down, the pound isn't going up, taxes are still referred to as "investment", Help-To-Buy still exists, and now your body isn't your own.

    Be honest. Other than the carriers and Brexit, what was the last government policy that made you mutter "fuck yeah"?
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838

    Adur - Mash Barn

    Labour 490
    Con 384
    LD 89
    Grn 31

    Lab gain from UKIP (who didn't even field a candidate)

    4th last time to 1st
    Ooh Tim Loughton
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669

    Earlier today I signed my Will, and got the forms to donate my remains to the Oxford University Pathology people. it's an incredibly complicated process. Let's put it this way, like most beautiful women, they are not exactly desperate to get their hands on my body.....

    no risk of you getting an STD then :wink:
  • volcanopetevolcanopete Posts: 2,078

    I said the other day, keep your eye on Grant Shapps.


    https://twitter.com/hendopolis/status/916049025299832832

    The smiler with a knife in his pocket.Chris Bryant was Labour's version as far as Blair was concerned so look out for any gay ex-vicars.
  • In fact recent Government moves on several issues seem pleasantly social democratic, as though TM had appointed EdM to advise.

    Indeed so. That's why it's really odd that people accuse Theresa May of shifting the party to the right, of moving away from the centre. As I've said before, overall she's somewhat to the left of Cameron - even more so than Boris is.

    Anyway, time for bed. G'night all.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    Reading up on the WTO agri-tarriff and quota stuff earlier, we're going to end up royally trashed.

    Basically, it's like a game of rugby: Europe vs The Rest of the World. And we're the ball.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,733
    RoyalBlue said:

    This is all a bit morbid. Shall we talk about AV?

    Over my dead body.

    Pause.

    :)
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    viewcode said:

    I'm furious about this opt-out for organs. A Conservative Government nationalising our bodies after we die.

    I only expect that sort of shit from the Left.

    That alone should be reason to topple May.

    I'm not a libertarian, although I have a certain admiration for those rare individuals who can consistently apply the principles. However, you raise a point that I meant to raise with you earlier. The Atlanticist, Thatcherite, low-tax, rational economics, small-government, free-trade principles that you generally espouse don't really have a home in the modern Conservative party. It's got Christian Democrats at one end, interfering busybodies (with the best of motives, naturally) who like spending your money for the greater good, and National Conservative small-towners who are suspicious of outsiders at the other end. We've had seven years of this now, the debt isn't going down, the pound isn't going up, taxes are still referred to as "investment", Help-To-Buy still exists, and now your body isn't your own.

    Be honest. Other than the carriers and Brexit, what was the last government policy that made you mutter "fuck yeah"?
    The Conservative Party has always been a coalition. We are held together by belief in the Crown and the Union, the Empire now being moot.

    We can argue about the rest.
  • CHESHIRE EAST Crewe East

    Joy Bratherton (Lab) 1,174
    Mary Elizabeth Addison (C) 542
    Eddie Ankers (UKIP) 158
    Melanie Ruth English (GP) 59

    Lab hold



    Lab gain Borehamwood Kenilworth (Hertsmere) from Con
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    At least tonight has seen a lively debate on organ donation and opt outs.

    And yet here in Wales it has been in place since December 2015 and more organs have been donated and more lives saved. To those who object ask how they would feel if an organ donation could save their nearest and dearest.

    Always much more fun when familiar posters form unusual coalitions. Makes one think!
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223
    viewcode said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    This is all a bit morbid. Shall we talk about AV?

    Over my dead body.

    Pause.

    :)
    Sigh :tongue:
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    RoyalBlue said:

    viewcode said:

    I'm furious about this opt-out for organs. A Conservative Government nationalising our bodies after we die.

    I only expect that sort of shit from the Left.

    That alone should be reason to topple May.

    I'm not a libertarian, although I have a certain admiration for those rare individuals who can consistently apply the principles. However, you raise a point that I meant to raise with you earlier. The Atlanticist, Thatcherite, low-tax, rational economics, small-government, free-trade principles that you generally espouse don't really have a home in the modern Conservative party. It's got Christian Democrats at one end, interfering busybodies (with the best of motives, naturally) who like spending your money for the greater good, and National Conservative small-towners who are suspicious of outsiders at the other end. We've had seven years of this now, the debt isn't going down, the pound isn't going up, taxes are still referred to as "investment", Help-To-Buy still exists, and now your body isn't your own.

    Be honest. Other than the carriers and Brexit, what was the last government policy that made you mutter "fuck yeah"?
    The Conservative Party has always been a coalition. We are held together by belief in the Crown and the Union, the Empire now being moot.

    We can argue about the rest.
    Ah our beloved Hanoverian royal family. So not all things German are bad ;)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    viewcode said:

    I'm furious about this opt-out for organs. A Conservative Government nationalising our bodies after we die.

    I only expect that sort of shit from the Left.

    That alone should be reason to topple May.

    I'm not a libertarian, although I have a certain admiration for those rare individuals who can consistently apply the principles. However, you raise a point that I meant to raise with you earlier. The Atlanticist, Thatcherite, low-tax, rational economics, small-government, free-trade principles that you generally espouse don't really have a home in the modern Conservative party. It's got Christian Democrats at one end, interfering busybodies (with the best of motives, naturally) who like spending your money for the greater good, and National Conservative small-towners who are suspicious of outsiders at the other end. We've had seven years of this now, the debt isn't going down, the pound isn't going up, taxes are still referred to as "investment", Help-To-Buy still exists, and now your body isn't your own.

    Be honest. Other than the carriers and Brexit, what was the last government policy that made you mutter "fuck yeah"?
    Brexit is more likely to result in a fortress socialism than free markets, and the carriers come at the cost of losing our amphibious ships and one of the Royal Marine Commandos. The carriers care real white elephants.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,399
    My suggestion is that the organ donation decision should be part of the registration for your GP. You are under no obligation to agree but you will be asked the question. My issue is more a practical one than moral. Getting clear consent removes uncertainty
  • RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    RoyalBlue said:

    viewcode said:

    I'm furious about this opt-out for organs. A Conservative Government nationalising our bodies after we die.

    I only expect that sort of shit from the Left.

    That alone should be reason to topple May.

    I'm not a libertarian, although I have a certain admiration for those rare individuals who can consistently apply the principles. However, you raise a point that I meant to raise with you earlier. The Atlanticist, Thatcherite, low-tax, rational economics, small-government, free-trade principles that you generally espouse don't really have a home in the modern Conservative party. It's got Christian Democrats at one end, interfering busybodies (with the best of motives, naturally) who like spending your money for the greater good, and National Conservative small-towners who are suspicious of outsiders at the other end. We've had seven years of this now, the debt isn't going down, the pound isn't going up, taxes are still referred to as "investment", Help-To-Buy still exists, and now your body isn't your own.

    Be honest. Other than the carriers and Brexit, what was the last government policy that made you mutter "fuck yeah"?
    The Conservative Party has always been a coalition. We are held together by belief in the Crown and the Union, the Empire now being moot.

    We can argue about the rest.
    Ah our beloved Hanoverian royal family. So not all things German are bad ;)
    The Royal Family are a model of integration and assimilation, although it certainly wasn’t instant.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Boreham Wood Hertsmere Lab Gain
  • dixiedean said:

    At least tonight has seen a lively debate on organ donation and opt outs.

    And yet here in Wales it has been in place since December 2015 and more organs have been donated and more lives saved. To those who object ask how they would feel if an organ donation could save their nearest and dearest.

    Always much more fun when familiar posters form unusual coalitions. Makes one think!
    Seems to be getting more common and good for the level of debate
  • Stoneleigh & Cubbington Ward - Warwick. Conservative hold
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Rayner being trashed on - oh guess what - her brief...
  • viewcode said:

    dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Thank you.
    Personally, I usually try to be gruntled rather than disgruntled.
    I try to be both shevelled and kempt whilst maintaining achronism.
    Are you ruth?
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761

    dixiedean said:

    At least tonight has seen a lively debate on organ donation and opt outs.

    And yet here in Wales it has been in place since December 2015 and more organs have been donated and more lives saved. To those who object ask how they would feel if an organ donation could save their nearest and dearest.

    Always much more fun when familiar posters form unusual coalitions. Makes one think!
    Seems to be getting more common and good for the level of debate
    I agree with Richard Nbavi on organ donation and TSE on Bladerunner.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Mortimer said:

    Rayner being trashed on - oh guess what - her brief...

    No shes not.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    dixiedean said:

    At least tonight has seen a lively debate on organ donation and opt outs.

    And yet here in Wales it has been in place since December 2015 and more organs have been donated and more lives saved. To those who object ask how they would feel if an organ donation could save their nearest and dearest.

    Always much more fun when familiar posters form unusual coalitions. Makes one think!
    Seems to be getting more common and good for the level of debate
    Indeed. I'm with you tonight!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Rayner being trashed on - oh guess what - her brief...

    No shes not.
    She just pedled a downright lie. More disadvantaged students are going to university. She got called on it.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    FF43 said:

    My suggestion is that the organ donation decision should be part of the registration for your GP. You are under no obligation to agree but you will be asked the question. My issue is more a practical one than moral. Getting clear consent removes uncertainty

    Over here it's on your drivers license.
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587
    What is the polling to which the thread header refers? Glancing over the last couple of threads I can see a passing reference by Volcanopete, but no figures or dates with voting intentions.
  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Rayner being trashed on - oh guess what - her brief...

    No shes not.
    She just pedled a downright lie. More disadvantaged students are going to university. She got called on it.
    No she said in percentage terms of rhose going to University less disadvantaged which is correct
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    RoyalBlue said:

    RoyalBlue said:

    viewcode said:

    I'm furious about this opt-out for organs. A Conservative Government nationalising our bodies after we die.

    I only expect that sort of shit from the Left.

    That alone should be reason to topple May.

    I'm not a libertarian, although I have a certain admiration for those rare individuals who can consistently apply the principles. However, you raise a point that I meant to raise with you earlier. The Atlanticist, Thatcherite, low-tax, rational economics, small-government, free-trade principles that you generally espouse don't really have a home in the modern Conservative party. It's got Christian Democrats at one end, interfering busybodies (with the best of motives, naturally) who like spending your money for the greater good, and National Conservative small-towners who are suspicious of outsiders at the other end. We've had seven years of this now, the debt isn't going down, the pound isn't going up, taxes are still referred to as "investment", Help-To-Buy still exists, and now your body isn't your own.

    Be honest. Other than the carriers and Brexit, what was the last government policy that made you mutter "fuck yeah"?
    The Conservative Party has always been a coalition. We are held together by belief in the Crown and the Union, the Empire now being moot.

    We can argue about the rest.
    Ah our beloved Hanoverian royal family. So not all things German are bad ;)
    The Royal Family are a model of integration and assimilation, although it certainly wasn’t instant.
    Well it took the Normans at least 300 years to assimilate, and some would argue they still haven't managed to properly!
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Rayner being trashed on - oh guess what - her brief...

    No shes not.
    She just pedled a downright lie. More disadvantaged students are going to university. She got called on it.
    No she said in percentage terms of rhose going to University less disadvantaged which is correct
    https://fullfact.org/education/young-peoples-participation-higher-education/

    'We’ve asked the Labour party what Ms Rayner was referring to when she said the number had gone down. From the measures we’ve looked at, more disadvantaged students than ever are going to university.'
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,733
    RoyalBlue said:

    viewcode said:

    I'm furious about this opt-out for organs. A Conservative Government nationalising our bodies after we die.

    I only expect that sort of shit from the Left.

    That alone should be reason to topple May.

    I'm not a libertarian, although I have a certain admiration for those rare individuals who can consistently apply the principles. However, you raise a point that I meant to raise with you earlier. The Atlanticist, Thatcherite, low-tax, rational economics, small-government, free-trade principles that you generally espouse don't really have a home in the modern Conservative party. It's got Christian Democrats at one end, interfering busybodies (with the best of motives, naturally) who like spending your money for the greater good, and National Conservative small-towners who are suspicious of outsiders at the other end. We've had seven years of this now, the debt isn't going down, the pound isn't going up, taxes are still referred to as "investment", Help-To-Buy still exists, and now your body isn't your own.

    Be honest. Other than the carriers and Brexit, what was the last government policy that made you mutter "fuck yeah"?
    The Conservative Party has always been a coalition. We are held together by belief in the Crown and the Union, the Empire now being moot.

    We can argue about the rest.
    Crown and Union, whilst necessary and important, are not sufficient for a program of government. It's like going for an interview as a car designer and replying "well, wheels and a engine" when asked what is important - one hopes for more than that.

  • bigjohnowlsbigjohnowls Posts: 22,761
    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Rayner being trashed on - oh guess what - her brief...

    No shes not.
    She just pedled a downright lie. More disadvantaged students are going to university. She got called on it.
    No she said in percentage terms of rhose going to University less disadvantaged which is correct
    https://fullfact.org/education/young-peoples-participation-higher-education/

    'We’ve asked the Labour party what Ms Rayner was referring to when she said the number had gone down. From the measures we’ve looked at, more disadvantaged students than ever are going to university.'
    But a smaller percentage of the total going to University are from disadvantaged backgrounds. Which is what she said. If you dont believe me just rewind QT.
  • viewcodeviewcode Posts: 22,733

    viewcode said:

    dixiedean said:

    You should see the puns I've got planned if Ruth Davidson becomes PM.

    Which reminds me, you can be said to be ruthless, but can you be ruth?

    Reuthe...old English. Pity, compassion.

    http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=ruthless
    Thank you.
    Personally, I usually try to be gruntled rather than disgruntled.
    I try to be both shevelled and kempt whilst maintaining achronism.
    Are you ruth?
    One has ruth, not one is ruth.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,139
    edited October 2017

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Rayner being trashed on - oh guess what - her brief...

    No shes not.
    She just pedled a downright lie. More disadvantaged students are going to university. She got called on it.
    No she said in percentage terms of rhose going to University less disadvantaged which is correct
    https://fullfact.org/education/young-peoples-participation-higher-education/

    'We’ve asked the Labour party what Ms Rayner was referring to when she said the number had gone down. From the measures we’ve looked at, more disadvantaged students than ever are going to university.'
    But a smaller percentage of the total going to University are from disadvantaged backgrounds. Which is what she said. If you dont believe me just rewind QT.
    Because there are fewer people from the most disadvantaged backgrounds?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Mortimer said:

    Rayner being trashed on - oh guess what - her brief...

    No shes not.
    She just pedled a downright lie. More disadvantaged students are going to university. She got called on it.
    No she said in percentage terms of rhose going to University less disadvantaged which is correct
    https://fullfact.org/education/young-peoples-participation-higher-education/

    'We’ve asked the Labour party what Ms Rayner was referring to when she said the number had gone down. From the measures we’ve looked at, more disadvantaged students than ever are going to university.'
    But a smaller percentage of the total going to University are from disadvantaged backgrounds. Which is what she said. If you dont believe me just rewind QT.
    Which is also wrong.

    https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-corbyn-wrong-on-working-class-students

    Most official statistics show that the proportion of students at English universities who came from less well-off backgrounds continued to increase even after the coalition government upped tuition fees.

    Why are Labour against more poorer students going to university? Is it because they're only for the middle classes now?
This discussion has been closed.