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  • Then there is the precedent of the NE England Assembly referendum. While Osborne tried to get round that with Metro Mayors and arguably broke the spirit of that referendum he didn't break the letter. We've no regional assemblies. Indeed the NE doesn't even have a Metro Mayor yet. So even when a government has sought to circumvent a referendum result it's done so in a slow and watered down way rather than simply dropping the referendum requirement.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, so if three parties get 33% or five 20% each, the decision lies in the hands of the politicians, not the electorate.

    Well the electorate will have given them those voteshares, if they gave 1 party 51% that party would form the government without the need for a coalition partner
    Not at all. 'The electorate' does not exist as a sentient entity so the idea that a particular result under PR iscthe result of some calculated decision is as daft as claiming divine right for kings.
    Elections can only produce governments that attempt to satisfy the largest number, not everybody. In any case the UK electorate have already rejected AV so the chances of their voting for PR in a referendum anytime soon is pretty small but if there were to be a referendum on electoral reform and they did endorse it that would be their choice
    The proportionality of electoral systems seems to be:

    AV < FPTP < STV

    So why you think that the electorate rejecting AV makes them less willing to support STV?
    There is a lot of faith in the assumption people rejected AV because of how much they like FPTP, thus meaning there is no need to ask again, rather than the possibility as seen advanced here that perhaps STV might stand a better chance. Maybe it wouldn't, but it is certainly fair to put the case again of people want.
  • kle4kle4 Posts: 96,811
    dixiedean said:

    We could have a referendum about whether to have FPTP, STV, AMS, or AV.
    But which voting system would we use to decide?

    And would we have any turnout or victory margin thresholds?
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,029
    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,139
    kle4 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    Mr. HYUFD, so if three parties get 33% or five 20% each, the decision lies in the hands of the politicians, not the electorate.

    Well the electorate will have given them those voteshares, if they gave 1 party 51% that party would form the government without the need for a coalition partner
    Not at all. 'The electorate' does not exist as a sentient entity so the idea that a particular result under PR iscthe result of some calculated decision is as daft as claiming divine right for kings.
    Elections can only produce governments that attempt to satisfy the largest number, not everybody. In any case the UK electorate have already rejected AV so the chances of their voting for PR in a referendum anytime soon is pretty small but if there were to be a referendum on electoral reform and they did endorse it that would be their choice
    The proportionality of electoral systems seems to be:

    AV < FPTP < STV

    So why you think that the electorate rejecting AV makes them less willing to support STV?
    There is a lot of faith in the assumption people rejected AV because of how much they like FPTP, thus meaning there is no need to ask again, rather than the possibility as seen advanced here that perhaps STV might stand a better chance. Maybe it wouldn't, but it is certainly fair to put the case again of people want.
    Ah, the EU approach. Keep asking until they give you the right answer :p
  • Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    It's because people (and particularly the media) project images of politicians, rather than the reality. Blair was a focus of change after the 'disastrous' Major years. Brown was a ham-fisted bully. Cameron a safe, out-of-touch pair of hands. May was the new Thatcher, and now she's the new Eden.

    Corbyn's past actions and terrible views don't matter much. He promises change, and like Blair, promises people that things can only get better. It doesn't matter that he can;t deliver, or that he'll be a disaster as PM. He's saleable. May is not.
  • In addition since AV the referendum principle has been further established by extending it to council tax rises above the cap. IIRC there has only been be referendum called to do that ( which failed ) but it's on the books. I think tax rises are a bonkers see of referendums but there we are.

    On the other hand the government has since increased the cap needed to trigger a referendum in the form of the Social Care Precept. So even referendums set out in statute can be altered by statute let alone ones that aren't.

    Then there is Labour's position in Wales. Plaid are now calling for tax raising powers to be devolved to the National Assembly via a super majority vote in the Assembly rather than the current referendum arrangement. But Welsh Labour are holding the line on a referendum being needed. A Westminster only move on voting reform would undermine that. And plenty of Labour councils would demand the abolition of the council tax cap as well.
  • kle4 said:

    India, the world's largest democracy, has FPTP

    The USA, the world's most powerful democracy, also has FPTP

    Biggest and most powerful does not mean they are the best at this particular issue.
    PClipp said:

    India, the world's largest democracy, has FPTP
    The USA, the world's most powerful democracy, also has FPTP

    And their political systems are rubbish.... So...?
    Just sayin' - I didn't say they ought to have FPTP :)
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
  • Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    China (after admittedly decades of appalling government) appears to have come up with an efficient non-democratic system. The key seems to be forcing the leadership to change every 10 years.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,270
    dixiedean said:

    We could have a referendum about whether to have FPTP, STV, AMS, or AV.
    But which voting system would we use to decide?

    New Zealand used first past the post to determine the replacement for first past the post:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_reform_in_New_Zealand
  • Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    The main speakers are the London left from the wealthy marxist elite. It has already been commented on by the BBC and when Corbyn has finished, labour MP's outside London will be homeless
  • OmniumOmnium Posts: 11,029
    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    @JJ too

    It simply can't be sensible though that we embrace a process that can produce these odd people.

    Sean_F is right of course, and Churchill is famously quoted along the same lines.

    The idea that part of my hard earned cash (tax) is best employed by the genius that is Mr Jeremy Corbyn, of (perhaps surprisingly) fixed abode in Islington is one of the most preposterous propositions that has ever crossed my desk.
  • Then there is the precedent of the last Scotland Act which grappled with how parliament can bind it's successors on the permeance of the Scottish Parliament in a system where no parliament can bind it's successors. Labour ditching FPTP without a referendum would walk straight into that Nationalist trap after the coalition at least tried to disarm it.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    China (after admittedly decades of appalling government) appears to have come up with an efficient non-democratic system. The key seems to be forcing the leadership to change every 10 years.
    By our standards, China's governance is still pretty grim. People are still subject to the whim of the local party boss. Granted, it's much better than it used to be.
  • By the way, in case it all goes wrong after I post this, just to say this has been a real cracking thread with loads of articulate and informed comments and practically no nastiness in spite of clearly held differences of opinion.

    PB at its best.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    I don't for one moment think he is an idiot; I'd feel much safer if I thought he was. But even if he is, so what? All systems sometimes fail, and the world contains a great many idiots, so you'd expect the odd one to get through any sort of process. If democracy is not the answer, what is?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    Omnium said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    @JJ too

    It simply can't be sensible though that we embrace a process that can produce these odd people.

    Sean_F is right of course, and Churchill is famously quoted along the same lines.

    The idea that part of my hard earned cash (tax) is best employed by the genius that is Mr Jeremy Corbyn, of (perhaps surprisingly) fixed abode in Islington is one of the most preposterous propositions that has ever crossed my desk.
    It has always been thus, under any system. There have been far worse people than Jeremy Corbyn in the past.
  • Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    "Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.…"

    - Winston S Churchill, 11 November 1947
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    .

    By the way, in case it all goes wrong after I post this, just to say this has been a real cracking thread with loads of articulate and informed comments and practically no nastiness in spite of clearly held differences of opinion.

    PB at its best.

    That’s what happens when we all manage to stay off B****t for 130 comments!
  • marke09marke09 Posts: 926
    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,139
    Sandpit said:

    .

    By the way, in case it all goes wrong after I post this, just to say this has been a real cracking thread with loads of articulate and informed comments and practically no nastiness in spite of clearly held differences of opinion.

    PB at its best.

    That’s what happens when we all manage to stay off B****t for 130 comments!
    You had to go and say it, didn’t you? :D
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,139
    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    Two party politics is back!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    edited September 2017
    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    It is amazing for all the stick Theresa May has received and the anointing of the dear leader Jeremy, the tories are not in the mid thirties, let alone with a two point lead. I believe BMG had them in the leasd as well 39/38

    Looks like public opinion is fairly stable at present
  • Omnium said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    @JJ too

    It simply can't be sensible though that we embrace a process that can produce these odd people.

    (Snip)
    With no offence meant to politicians who might be reading, past and present, it is perhaps because you need to be a little odd to want to be a politician. In most case you an earn more outside politics, and you can place yourself and your family under the spotlight. You have a very public 'job interview', and often get skewered when you've done nothing wrong.

    Why on Earth would you want to put yourself through that?

    I'm fascinated by politics, but it's not something that I'd ever want to do,. Therefore I somewhat admire people who do put themselves up for election, even if I don't like them.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    RobD said:

    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    Two party politics is back!
    In truth it has been back (in England at least) since the 2015 election.
  • The polls seem to have set in a ' Goldilocks Zone '. Labour high enough to punish May's hubris and deter yet another Brexit early election. Labour not higher as they don't deserve it not having done the hard work on preparing for government. I suspect that pattern will hold until we get a decisive break in the Brexit dynamic. Either the talks collapse or we get a deal for voters to assess. I'm not counting the Florence speech as that's just May bring her policy into line with the election result.

    For now the country seems to be content to have the Tories in power as long as they are on a very tight leash.
  • SeanT said:

    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    It is amazing for all the stick Theresa May has received and the anointing of the dear leader Jeremy, the tories are not in the mid thirties, let alone with a two point lead. I believe BMG had them in the leasd as well 39/38

    Looks like public opinion is fairly stable at present
    These are actually quite lamentable numbers for Labour. They should be ten points ahead, given the plunging popularity of TMay and the sense Brexit is being bollocksed.

    The Tories will replace May and win another decent maj in 2022, unless Corbyn bows out, which I don't think he will.
    The most accurate pollster at GE2017 gives Labour a 5% lead, and Ipsos MORI gives Lab a 4% lead.

    It is the supplementary/leadership questions that really should worry the Tories.
  • murali_smurali_s Posts: 3,067
    All MoE stuff. Nothing much to see at the moment.

    Will be very different when the Tories take chunks out of each other viz. Brexit. It's just a matter of when not if...
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,139
    Opinium Gold Standard confirmed. Was there any doubt? :smiley:
  • SeanT said:

    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    It is amazing for all the stick Theresa May has received and the anointing of the dear leader Jeremy, the tories are not in the mid thirties, let alone with a two point lead. I believe BMG had them in the leasd as well 39/38

    Looks like public opinion is fairly stable at present
    These are actually quite lamentable numbers for Labour. They should be ten points ahead, given the plunging popularity of TMay and the sense Brexit is being bollocksed.

    The Tories will replace May and win another decent maj in 2022, unless Corbyn bows out, which I don't think he will.
    The most accurate pollster at GE2017 gives Labour a 5% lead, and Ipsos MORI gives Lab a 4% lead.

    It is the supplementary/leadership questions that really should worry the Tories.
    Corbyn -10 and falling - May - 11 from - 17

    Crossover coming
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,139
    murali_s said:

    All MoE stuff. Nothing much to see at the moment.

    Will be very different when the Tories take chunks out of each other viz. Brexit. It's just a matter of when not if...
    Already happening.
  • murali_s said:

    All MoE stuff. Nothing much to see at the moment.

    Will be very different when the Tories take chunks out of each other viz. Brexit. It's just a matter of when not if...
    And labour's policy today is. 3 labour MPs interviewed after May's speech - 3 very different versions

    Labour are all over the place
  • YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    edited September 2017
    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Licensing is a quasi-judicial process. Uber will either make the changes needed to get their license, appeal and win or appeal and lose and then make those changes. In any of those three circumstances they'll be at worst a very short period where Uber doesn't operate or in all probability no gap at all as Uber can operate till the legal process is exhausted. Khan doesn't need a reverse gear on this as Uber continuing to drive is built into nearly every out come.

    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd walk out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
  • SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.

    Bluebell Railway!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    It is amazing for all the stick Theresa May has received and the anointing of the dear leader Jeremy, the tories are not in the mid thirties, let alone with a two point lead. I believe BMG had them in the leasd as well 39/38

    Looks like public opinion is fairly stable at present
    These are actually quite lamentable numbers for Labour. They should be ten points ahead, given the plunging popularity of TMay and the sense Brexit is being bollocksed.

    The Tories will replace May and win another decent maj in 2022, unless Corbyn bows out, which I don't think he will.
    The most accurate pollster at GE2017 gives Labour a 5% lead, and Ipsos MORI gives Lab a 4% lead.

    It is the supplementary/leadership questions that really should worry the Tories.
    Get rid of TMay (which they will, as she wants to go): job done. Corbyn, by contrast, will cling on like a vest-wearing barnacle.
    What makes you think TMay wants to go? If she wanted to go, no one could stop her.
  • Broken, sleazy UKIP and Labour on the slide :lol:
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Licensing is a quasi-judicial process. Uber will either make the changes needed to get their license, appeal and win or appeal and lose and then make those changes. In any of those three circumstances they'll be at worst a very short period where Uber doesn't operate or in all probability no gap at all as Uber can operate till the legal process is exhausted. Khan doesn't need a reverse gear on this as Uber continuing to drive s built into nearly every out come.

    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd all out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    Uber will not go away. They will have to make changes and they will. There is lots of money to be made. Khan or TfL does not have to learn how to reverse.

    If Uber refuses to make changes , there are many who will.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.

    My sister in law lives near there. I'll alert her :wink:
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,399
    In Scotland we have FPTP, AMS and STV for different levels of government. Something of a laboratory of voting systems. What I like about STV (local government in our case) is that the candidates compete with others from the same party for the early round selections. So say you have a seat which almost ensures at least one member from the SNP, Labour and Conservatives, candidates want to be ranked first so they get the best chance of a seat. In theory this allows voters to bypass the party machines to rank candidates they like rather than the stooges.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.

    Bluebell Railway!
    Have you ever done the Flåmbhan in Norway Sunil? 12.6miles, 2,840' climb. Great scenery, very impressive.
  • Tim_BTim_B Posts: 7,669
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Licensing is a quasi-judicial process. Uber will either make the changes needed to get their license, appeal and win or appeal and lose and then make those changes. In any of those three circumstances they'll be at worst a very short period where Uber doesn't operate or in all probability no gap at all as Uber can operate till the legal process is exhausted. Khan doesn't need a reverse gear on this as Uber continuing to drive s built into nearly every out come.

    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd all out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.
    One of the Hamptons on Long Island voted to ban Uber, as I found out in June when I couldn't get one there. Smithson minor will probably have more up to date info on it.
  • SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.

    Bluebell Railway!
    Have you ever done the Flåmbhan in Norway Sunil? 12.6miles, 2,840' climb. Great scenery, very impressive.
    My wife and I have twice and it is very impressive
  • @Surbiton Indeed. And what could TfL have on Uber ? They only need to have found one Kiddie Fiddler, Rapist or Jihadi without an ECRB check to win a PR war and leave critics looking stupid. Or if you prefer one brave ex service personnel who lost an arm to the Taliban turned Uber driver who's been 50p an hour by malice.
  • SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.

    Bluebell Railway!
    Have you ever done the Flåmbhan in Norway Sunil? 12.6miles, 2,840' climb. Great scenery, very impressive.
    Not yet, due to my "racist" Britain First strategy in doing the world's railways :lol:
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Licensing is a quasi-judicial process. Uber will either make the changes needed to get their license, appeal and win or appeal and lose and then make those changes. In any of those three circumstances they'll be at worst a very short period where Uber doesn't operate or in all probability no gap at all as Uber can operate till the legal process is exhausted. Khan doesn't need a reverse gear on this as Uber continuing to drive s built into nearly every out come.

    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd all out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.
    Surely, another lesson, is that the young aren't that into socialism?

    Yes, they're internationalist, obsessed by gender and identity politics, and want more spending on public services, but they also want consumer choice, free markets and the chance to own their own home.

    It's marxist-chic, not marxist reality they want to wear.
  • SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.


    So you're married, but don't live with her?

    Strange. Most people do it the other way around.

  • SeanT said:

    Fucking hot tho.

    It is an unavoidable if uncomfortable fact that a LOT of the women active on the hard right, far right, alt.right, neo-Fascist right, white rights right, nativist right, etc etc, are seriousy bloody sexy.

    From Marine Le Pen on.

    Jesus, I'd probably fuck Milo after a couple of bottles of gin and I am 100% hetero.
    Every hole is a goal.
  • SeanT said:

    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    It is amazing for all the stick Theresa May has received and the anointing of the dear leader Jeremy, the tories are not in the mid thirties, let alone with a two point lead. I believe BMG had them in the leasd as well 39/38

    Looks like public opinion is fairly stable at present
    These are actually quite lamentable numbers for Labour. They should be ten points ahead, given the plunging popularity of TMay and the sense Brexit is being bollocksed.

    The Tories will replace May and win another decent maj in 2022, unless Corbyn bows out, which I don't think he will.
    We could be in for a period of two-party politics again where the winner clinches it by only 2-4% each time, with small swings between the two, just as we had in the 1950s.

    The key for the Tories is to get Brexit done and dusted, so they become the safe option again, and get a strong economic offering for GE2022, and scare the shit out of the middle class over Corbyn.
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    China (after admittedly decades of appalling government) appears to have come up with an efficient non-democratic system. The key seems to be forcing the leadership to change every 10 years.
    By our standards, China's governance is still pretty grim. People are still subject to the whim of the local party boss. Granted, it's much better than it used to be.
    The alternatives to democracy are repression from above, coupled with the occasional revolution from below. Violence and corruption being basic tools of the trade.

    No thanks.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.

    Say hello to my aunt Mary Claire if you see her
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518
    SeanT said:

    Fucking hot tho.

    It is an unavoidable if uncomfortable fact that a LOT of the women active on the hard right, far right, alt.right, neo-Fascist right, white rights right, nativist right, etc etc, are seriousy bloody sexy.

    From Marion Le Pen on.

    Jesus, I'd probably fuck Milo after a couple of bottles of gin and I am 100% hetero.
    Your last sentence is entirely logically inconsistent, as I'm sure you realise.
    And there are plenty of hot Lefties too, as I know you know only too well.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    SeanT said:



    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.

    This is striking, if true:

    Fred Jones, Uber's UK head of cities, said the mayor and TfL had "caved to pressure from a small number of individuals and groups that want to protect the status quo and reduce consumer choice and competition from London".
    He said the company had operated in London for five-and-a-half years, during which it was audited by TfL.
    "The last time they audited us to check we were playing by the rules, they found that there were zero errors in our processes.
    "This was one of the strange things around the TfL notice yesterday is they are the ones who do all of the checks and license the drivers."
    He said when a driver signed up to the app, Uber made sure they had all the correct paperwork from TfL and that Uber did not carry out background checks itself.


    Khan has potentially ratnered himself here. I know nothing about Uber (for instance: are all Uber cars marked Uber, or is it up to the driver?) but if 600,000 Londoners care enough to sign a petition, how on earth did he not see this coming? It's like a tory grandee not knowing the price of a pint of milk.

    The other question which needs to be asked and hasn't is: how do Uber rank as against London minicabs generally for assault and misconduct cases? I would have thought that all minicab drivers would have Uberised themselves, so the fact of Uberisation of itself should make no difference.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Licensing is a quasi-judicial process. Uber will either make the changes needed to get their license, appeal and win or appeal and lose and then make those changes. In any of those three circumstances they'll be at worst a very short period where Uber doesn't operate or in all probability no gap at all as Uber can operate till the legal process is exhausted. Khan doesn't need a reverse gear on this as Uber continuing to drive s built into nearly every out come.

    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd all out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.
    Surely, another lesson, is that the young aren't that into socialism?

    Yes, they're internationalist, obsessed by gender and identity politics, and want more spending on public services, but they also want consumer choice, free markets and the chance to own their own home.

    It's marxist-chic, not marxist reality they want to wear.
    Well they don't remember the 70's and how crap it was( if not Marxist). Still I do, and I've made sure I've got money abroad and can send more at 24 hours notice.
  • dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 29,518

    SeanT said:

    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    It is amazing for all the stick Theresa May has received and the anointing of the dear leader Jeremy, the tories are not in the mid thirties, let alone with a two point lead. I believe BMG had them in the leasd as well 39/38

    Looks like public opinion is fairly stable at present
    These are actually quite lamentable numbers for Labour. They should be ten points ahead, given the plunging popularity of TMay and the sense Brexit is being bollocksed.

    The Tories will replace May and win another decent maj in 2022, unless Corbyn bows out, which I don't think he will.
    We could be in for a period of two-party politics again where the winner clinches it by only 2-4% each time, with small swings between the two, just as we had in the 1950s.

    The key for the Tories is to get Brexit done and dusted, so they become the safe option again, and get a strong economic offering for GE2022, and scare the shit out of the middle class over Corbyn.
    Not entirely sure that is the way to win. Wasn't scaring the shit about Corbyn the plan last time?
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    China (after admittedly decades of appalling government) appears to have come up with an efficient non-democratic system. The key seems to be forcing the leadership to change every 10 years.
    By our standards, China's governance is still pretty grim. People are still subject to the whim of the local party boss. Granted, it's much better than it used to be.
    The alternatives to democracy are repression from above, coupled with the occasional revolution from below. Violence and corruption being basic tools of the trade.

    No thanks.

    This is the key point.

    Democracy doesn't guarantee good governance - most certainly not! But it means getting rid of bad leaders without the need for violent revolution.

  • @SeanT I don't know. It's certainly possible Khan overreached and pressured officers to use a quasi-judicial process to make a political point. The appeals process and a court uncovers this and Khan gets a forceful judgement against TfL and has to pay costs ( which of course means tax payers paying costs )

    But it's equally possible Khan was simply notified of a quasi judicial decision and having looked at the file didn't fancy being disqualified from office and/or a corporate manslaughter charge by illegally over ruling that decision as there's quite a bit of evidence of problems.

    For course there are 101 shades of grey between those two extremes.

    But to through a googly here is it possible post Rotherham that our Brown, Muslim Mayor just thinks Taxi Drivers should be regulated as toughly as the law allows him ?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    SeanT said:

    marke09 said:

    An eve of conference poll by Opinium for the Observer puts the Tories two points ahead of Labour. The Conservatives are on 42%, Labour on 40%, the Lib Dems on 6% and Ukip and the SNP both on 4%.

    It is amazing for all the stick Theresa May has received and the anointing of the dear leader Jeremy, the tories are not in the mid thirties, let alone with a two point lead. I believe BMG had them in the leasd as well 39/38

    Looks like public opinion is fairly stable at present
    These are actually quite lamentable numbers for Labour. They should be ten points ahead, given the plunging popularity of TMay and the sense Brexit is being bollocksed.

    The Tories will replace May and win another decent maj in 2022, unless Corbyn bows out, which I don't think he will.
    We could be in for a period of two-party politics again where the winner clinches it by only 2-4% each time, with small swings between the two, just as we had in the 1950s.

    The key for the Tories is to get Brexit done and dusted, so they become the safe option again, and get a strong economic offering for GE2022, and scare the shit out of the middle class over Corbyn.
    First two suggestions fair, but very hard for the Tories to achieve imo.

    They'll fall back on trying to scare the shit out of the middle class over Corbyn... I doubt that will be enough if they can't get Brexit done & dusted and/or there's a (possibly overdue) recession.
  • On topic, those wishing for electoral reform (fair enough) are entitled to lobby hard for it, but they should be careful what they wish for.

    Like in Denmark, Austria and now (possibly) New Zealand I suspect a clear right-wing party would occasionally be kingmaker, and force far more restrictive immigration policies on the UK than the Conservatives.
  • Bloody hell, only passed through there a couple of hours ago.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.


    So you're married, but don't live with her?

    Strange. Most people do it the other way around.

    Our intent is never to live together, in the classic way, and to divorce the moment we are bored

    I suspect she may be the first mover, as she is 22 and exceptionally lovely to look at.
    Good luck to you. Live the happiness you are in in the moment. Whatever, you'll be able to look yourself metorphorically in the mirror more than just about any of us before you kick the bucket and say you didn't treat it all like a rehearsal - you've lived!

    Not certain that roller coaster would be for all of us mortals mind (!)
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    welshowl said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.


    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd all out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.
    Surely, another lesson, is that the young aren't that into socialism?

    Yes, they're internationalist, obsessed by gender and identity politics, and want more spending on public services, but they also want consumer choice, free markets and the chance to own their own home.

    It's marxist-chic, not marxist reality they want to wear.
    Well they don't remember the 70's and how crap it was( if not Marxist). Still I do, and I've made sure I've got money abroad and can send more at 24 hours notice.
    I remember the 70s and economically it was crap, agreed. But hardly marxist, or even socialist... For a start the forst 4 years had a (truly useless) Tory government. Labour were not much better from 1974 onwards. But it's wrong to say the 70s were crap due to Labour alone.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,399
    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    You think he's an idiot and can't accept that other people might perfectly legitimately come to to a different view. You don't understand that IS democracy. As far as I have seen Corbyn is a firm democrat. Donald Trump is a different kettle of fish.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2017
    I've just had a very very scary thought
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Licensing is a quasi-judicial process. Uber will either make the changes needed to get their license, appeal and win or appeal and lose and then make those changes. In any of those three circumstances they'll be at worst a very short period where Uber doesn't operate or in all probability no gap at all as Uber can operate till the legal process is exhausted. Khan doesn't need a reverse gear on this as Uber continuing to drive s built into nearly every out come.

    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd all out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.
    Surely, another lesson, is that the young aren't that into socialism?

    Yes, they're internationalist, obsessed by gender and identity politics, and want more spending on public services, but they also want consumer choice, free markets and the chance to own their own home.

    It's marxist-chic, not marxist reality they want to wear.
    I'd prefer Attlee's socialism to that kind of Batshit ideology.
  • SeanT said:

    Fucking hot tho.

    It is an unavoidable if uncomfortable fact that a LOT of the women active on the hard right, far right, alt.right, neo-Fascist right, white rights right, nativist right, etc etc, are seriousy bloody sexy.

    From Marion Le Pen on.

    Jesus, I'd probably fuck Milo after a couple of bottles of gin and I am 100% hetero.
    Perhaps I'm insufficiently in touch with my inner erastes, but Milo is honking.
  • eekeek Posts: 28,779
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Licensing is a quasi-judicial process. Uber will either make the changes needed to get their license, appeal and win or appeal and lose and then make those changes. In any of those three circumstances they'll be at worst a very short period where Uber doesn't operate or in all probability no gap at all as Uber can operate till the legal process is exhausted. Khan doesn't need a reverse gear on this as Uber continuing to drive s built into nearly every out come.

    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd all out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.
    Uber's largest competitor Didi has just invested a lot of money in Taxify - designed to be Didi's UK's representative....

    I suspect we will quickly see a very large marketing launch campaign to point out other options are available...
  • Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Licensing is a quasi-judicial process. Uber will either make the changes needed to get their license, appeal and win or appeal and lose and then make those changes. In any of those three circumstances they'll be at worst a very short period where Uber doesn't operate or in all probability no gap at all as Uber can operate till the legal process is exhausted. Khan doesn't need a reverse gear on this as Uber continuing to drive s built into nearly every out come.

    The only outcome in which your uberocalypse comes to pass is if Uber voluntarily leaves the market. Either by not appealing or refusing to make changes. In effect they'd all out of the Greater London market in a huff. How likely is that ? And in terms for the next Mayoral election given Uber is just an app everyone drivers and customers alike will just transfer to another app.

    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.
    Surely, another lesson, is that the young aren't that into socialism?

    Yes, they're internationalist, obsessed by gender and identity politics, and want more spending on public services, but they also want consumer choice, free markets and the chance to own their own home.

    It's marxist-chic, not marxist reality they want to wear.
    I'd prefer Attlee's socialism to that kind of Batshit ideology.
    Attlee was a patriot.
  • OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    Ishmael_Z said:

    SeanT said:



    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.

    This is striking, if true:

    Fred Jones, Uber's UK head of cities, said the mayor and TfL had "caved to pressure from a small number of individuals and groups that want to protect the status quo and reduce consumer choice and competition from London".
    He said the company had operated in London for five-and-a-half years, during which it was audited by TfL.
    "The last time they audited us to check we were playing by the rules, they found that there were zero errors in our processes.
    "This was one of the strange things around the TfL notice yesterday is they are the ones who do all of the checks and license the drivers."
    He said when a driver signed up to the app, Uber made sure they had all the correct paperwork from TfL and that Uber did not carry out background checks itself.


    Khan has potentially ratnered himself here. I know nothing about Uber (for instance: are all Uber cars marked Uber, or is it up to the driver?) but if 600,000 Londoners care enough to sign a petition, how on earth did he not see this coming? It's like a tory grandee not knowing the price of a pint of milk.

    The other question which needs to be asked and hasn't is: how do Uber rank as against London minicabs generally for assault and misconduct cases? I would have thought that all minicab drivers would have Uberised themselves, so the fact of Uberisation of itself should make no difference.
    A question that no one seems asking is how Uber got so many people to sign a petition, so quickly? I've seen a few, that got a lot of names, but it did take a couple of days.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    SeanT said:

    Fucking hot tho.

    It is an unavoidable if uncomfortable fact that a LOT of the women active on the hard right, far right, alt.right, neo-Fascist right, white rights right, nativist right, etc etc, are seriousy bloody sexy.

    From Marion Le Pen on.

    Jesus, I'd probably fuck Milo after a couple of bottles of gin and I am 100% hetero.
    To quote (if memory suffices) John Cleland: "Any port in a storm".
  • OchEye said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    SeanT said:



    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.

    This is striking, if true:

    Fred Jones, Uber's UK head of cities, said the mayor and TfL had "caved to pressure from a small number of individuals and groups that want to protect the status quo and reduce consumer choice and competition from London".
    He said the company had operated in London for five-and-a-half years, during which it was audited by TfL.
    "The last time they audited us to check we were playing by the rules, they found that there were zero errors in our processes.
    "This was one of the strange things around the TfL notice yesterday is they are the ones who do all of the checks and license the drivers."
    He said when a driver signed up to the app, Uber made sure they had all the correct paperwork from TfL and that Uber did not carry out background checks itself.


    Khan has potentially ratnered himself here. I know nothing about Uber (for instance: are all Uber cars marked Uber, or is it up to the driver?) but if 600,000 Londoners care enough to sign a petition, how on earth did he not see this coming? It's like a tory grandee not knowing the price of a pint of milk.

    The other question which needs to be asked and hasn't is: how do Uber rank as against London minicabs generally for assault and misconduct cases? I would have thought that all minicab drivers would have Uberised themselves, so the fact of Uberisation of itself should make no difference.
    A question that no one seems asking is how Uber got so many people to sign a petition, so quickly? I've seen a few, that got a lot of names, but it did take a couple of days.
    They sent out an email.
  • SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Incidentally the UBER petition is nearing 600,000 signatures now. It's gonna be one of the biggest in history, especially given that it is so local to London, and means fuck all to hayseeds in the sticks.

    Sadiq Khan is right now practising his backpedalling skills.

    Taxi Lic
    But in terms of the PR bottom line the question is this ? What does TfL have on Uber ? I don't know but I'd suggest you don't either.
    I agree it is quite unlikely UBER will quit London, it's in the interests of both sides to compromise. UBER has huge public support - 600,000 signing a petition in one day - but plenty of global PR problems, they need to be seen as reasonable. TfL (chaired by Khan) will also want to compromise, because if UBER DID leave, Khan would shed many thousands of voters, possibly fatally.

    My interest is why Khan went this far. I think it was simply an unforced error. I reckon he thought it would seem popular and lefty and he wanted to court the unions, for a future leadership bid, he hadn't reckoned on this massive backlash.

    Overall my takeway is: don't over-estimate Khan. He will not save Labour from Corbyn. He is clumsy, effete and uncharismatic, he's got a dodgy backstory, and he's not very good at basic politics.
    Surely, another lesson, is that the young aren't that into socialism?

    Yes, they're internationalist, obsessed by gender and identity politics, and want more spending on public services, but they also want consumer choice, free markets and the chance to own their own home.

    It's marxist-chic, not marxist reality they want to wear.
    Absolutely right, the interesting question is, at what point do the Corbyn-loving youthful lefties realise that traditional socialism is total shit, and pretty much inimical to everything they really want?

    Corbynomics in the UK means a rainy version of Venezuela, and everyone renting, not Uber and start-ups and hipster cafes serving quinoa and avocado toasties to young bearded home-owners.

    Do they need to see a socialist government utterly screwing up in actuality, or will they wise up from things like this UBER debacle?
    They will need to feel it in the pocket first. So that means a couple of years of learning the hard way, sadly, including us.

    The hope is that Corbyn is old news by GE2022.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    @Benpointer

    Agreed it was a joint effort to make it that crap!
  • Charles said:

    I've just had a very very scary thought


    Someone thinks going to Cambridge is a good idea?

    The people realising they don't need banks?

    SeanT on Strictly?

  • EXC: In small hours of election morning Phil Hammond texted Boris to say he would back him for leader

    Hammond said he would back Boris to run a triumvirate with himself and David Davis to replace Theresa May on election nigh

    Hammond leadership plan to replace May: he would run economy, DD would run Brexit, Boris would "run the shop" as front man. See Sunday Times
  • SeanT said:

    Fucking hot tho.

    It is an unavoidable if uncomfortable fact that a LOT of the women active on the hard right, far right, alt.right, neo-Fascist right, white rights right, nativist right, etc etc, are seriousy bloody sexy.

    From Marion Le Pen on.

    Jesus, I'd probably fuck Milo after a couple of bottles of gin and I am 100% hetero.
    Perhaps I'm insufficiently in touch with my inner erastes, but Milo is honking.
    image
  • Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    China (after admittedly decades of appalling government) appears to have come up with an efficient non-democratic system. The key seems to be forcing the leadership to change every 10 years.
    By our standards, China's governance is still pretty grim. People are still subject to the whim of the local party boss. Granted, it's much better than it used to be.
    The alternatives to democracy are repression from above, coupled with the occasional revolution from below. Violence and corruption being basic tools of the trade.

    No thanks.

    This is the key point.

    Democracy doesn't guarantee good governance - most certainly not! But it means getting rid of bad leaders without the need for violent revolution.

    Even if you hate the results, you've gotta role with the punch. Because the alternatives are far worse.

    The only thing I can think of that might (genuinely) undermine Western democracy is if mainstream political parties (in a number of countries) continue to conspire with each other to shut out elected parties that seek to get large-scale mass immigration under control.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Charles said:

    I've just had a very very scary thought

    You have a 22 year old, recently married relative in East Grinstead? :)
  • EXC: In small hours of election morning Phil Hammond texted Boris to say he would back him for leader

    Hammond said he would back Boris to run a triumvirate with himself and David Davis to replace Theresa May on election nigh

    Hammond leadership plan to replace May: he would run economy, DD would run Brexit, Boris would "run the shop" as front man. See Sunday Times

    And the membership have no say in this, if true
  • Crucial bit of info from The Sunday Times.

    Rebel Tory MPs have the numbers to trigger a leadership contest.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    Omnium said:

    Democracy in any sense can't be the future.

    Corbyn demonstrates that. Nobody thinks he's other than an idiot. He's used the democratic process (albeit massively manipulated) to become the Labour leader. He's then raised a barrage of no content to convince the masses.

    Of course it's not actually him. Quite who it is should worry us all.

    The alternatives to democracy tend to produce worse outcomes.
    China (after admittedly decades of appalling government) appears to have come up with an efficient non-democratic system. The key seems to be forcing the leadership to change every 10 years.
    By our standards, China's governance is still pretty grim. People are still subject to the whim of the local party boss. Granted, it's much better than it used to be.
    The alternatives to democracy are repression from above, coupled with the occasional revolution from below. Violence and corruption being basic tools of the trade.

    No thanks.

    This is the key point.

    Democracy doesn't guarantee good governance - most certainly not! But it means getting rid of bad leaders without the need for violent revolution.

    Even if you hate the results, you've gotta role with the punch. Because the alternatives are far worse.

    The only thing I can think of that might (genuinely) undermine Western democracy is if mainstream political parties (in a number of countries) continue to conspire with each other to shut out elected parties that seek to get large-scale mass immigration under control.
    Example?
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    edited September 2017
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2017

    Charles said:

    I've just had a very very scary thought


    Someone thinks going to Cambridge is a good idea?

    The people realising they don't need banks?

    SeanT on Strictly?

    Worse.

    I have a very beautiful, rather left wing, blonde cousin Katherine.

    Who's 22.

    And lives in East Grinstead :worried:
  • Crucial bit of info from The Sunday Times.

    Rebel Tory MPs have the numbers to trigger a leadership contest.

    And let in Corbyn
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Charles said:

    I've just had a very very scary thought

    Everton lack a centre forward till the January window?
    Vince Cable might be right?
    Ed Balls has really got gangnam style?
    Donald Trump is a North Korean agent?
    The new tenner still has animal fat?
    Len Goodman is irreplaceable?
    The AV thread was actually popular and provoked well informed civil debate?
    England have no opener for Aussie conditions to partner Cook?
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295

    Crucial bit of info from The Sunday Times.

    Rebel Tory MPs have the numbers to trigger a leadership contest.

    But they won’t, will they? You know that, I know that.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    SeanT said:

    welshowl said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    I'm going down to East Grinstead tomorrow to stay with my wife.

    This is a sentence I never thought I would write. Most odd.


    So you're married, but don't live with her?

    Strange. Most people do it the other way around.

    Our intent is never to live together, in the classic way, and to divorce the moment we are bored

    I suspect she may be the first mover, as she is 22 and exceptionally lovely to look at.
    Good luck to you. Live the happiness you are in in the moment. Whatever, you'll be able to look yourself metorphorically in the mirror more than just about any of us before you kick the bucket and say you didn't treat it all like a rehearsal - you've lived!

    Not certain that roller coaster would be for all of us mortals mind (!)
    I have very certainly LIVED. This is another chapter. Probably chapter 15 of my memoir.

    Indeed I can't deny that the crazy, that's-a-good-story unlikeliness of this marriage was part of its appeal.

    "So, you got married for the first time at 54?"

    "Yep."

    "And how old was she?"

    "22. And stunning."

    Heh. That's one for my grandkids. (my kids will be too appalled and embarrassed, it will take a generation to live down)

    Also, to be fair, I am utterly in love with her. More in love than I have ever been in love in my life. Weird but true.
    "Writing to his friend and literary agent Douglas Kinnaird in 1819, Byron offered a swaggering defence of his new poem, Don Juan: "it may be bawdy - …but is it not life, is it not the thing? - Could any man have written it - who has not lived in the world? - and tooled in a post-chaise? in a hackney coach? in a Gondola? against a wall? in a court carriage? …on a table or under it?""
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    I've just had a very very scary thought

    You have a 22 year old, recently married relative in East Grinstead? :)
    A 22 year old daughter in East Grinstead.
  • May brought in Damian Green as de facto deputy prime minister because chief whip told her 4 senior ministers were plotting to grab her job

    Roman style triumvirate plan. Boris = Julius Caesar, SAS man DD = military man Pompey. Hammond = money bags Crassus
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Mortimer said:

    Charles said:

    I've just had a very very scary thought

    You have a 22 year old, recently married relative in East Grinstead? :)
    I don't know if she's just got married or not...
  • SeanT said:

    x

    Fucking hot tho.

    It is an unavoidable if uncomfortable fact that a LOT of the women active on the hard right, far right, alt.right, neo-Fascist right, white rights right, nativist right, etc etc, are seriousy bloody sexy.

    From Marion Le Pen on.

    Jesus, I'd probably fuck Milo after a couple of bottles of gin and I am 100% hetero.
    Look at London schoolkids, today. In fact, look at schoolkids across the country, in our inner cities, major towns, and then look ahead to demographic trends overall.

    The UK is on course to have its population consist of 30-40% visibly ethnic minorities, and a very clear majority in London, by 2050.

    Now, that isn't (and shouldn't be) a problem, but we're not going to make a success of that with 1960s-1970s style attitudes to race relations with its language of victims and oppressors, unless we want our lives ruled by quotas, paranoia, suspicion, and a ghettoisation of Britain.

    Race has to be defused as entirely meaningless, to national identity and to everything else, without throwing the baby out with the bathwater, and unifying everyone in one overarching British culture.

    I see problems with the attitudes of both the Right and the Left on that at present.
This discussion has been closed.