@Sean_F Yes it all depends how you define living standards. My lefty teacher was through the in the BBC, public libraries, access to the NHS. What would Henry Vlll have made of those ? Or the sight of the food available in a modern Tesco ? What would have one short course of antibiotics have fetched in Alexander the Great's day. Does a British child playing with a cheap Android tablet have access to greater riches than say Da Vinci ? But you are right. It's a parlour game and depends on your definitions.
By 1987 to 1989 when I was doing my Economics GCSE our famously lefty teacher devoted a whole 4 lesson streak to the concept that a unemployed person on state benefits who was housed in a basic standard council property had a higher standard of living than Henry VIII had.
He kept on and on until we eventually worked through on our own what his point was. That that was objectively true but psychologically irrelevant. We're naked apes who judge our situation by our peers and recent events.
Which is frankly what's gone wrong since The Crash. Even half a generation departure from the previous trend in living standards has sent us crazy even though in the big picture it's minor and in the historic sweep the surge in living standards was exceptional not the current blip.
I don't often quote the journalist Paul Mason but his definition of Austerity is intriguing. " Decades and decades of falling western living standards until they meet rising Asian living standards in the middle. "
But no western politican can run on a " Your golden centuries are over, your objectively better off than Cleopatra was so stop moaning now it's the Chinese turn. "
In truth, the council tenant probably didn't. The plutocrats of the 16th century or the Roman Empire had a standard of living that was outstanding in any era. But, they did run a far higher risk of dying violently than their modern counterparts.
Also, you could be struck down and die by a variety of diseases and injuries at any time in your life that were lethal then, and would not be so today. Neither King or pauper was immune.
I often wonder if I'd still be alive today were I alive then, given I've had pneumonia once, and an tooth abscess twice, both of which were cured by antibiotics.
I was just thinking that while not only would a TV probably cost less in absolute, let alone real, terms now than in 1976 but there was also only three channels to watch back then and even those only broadcast half of the day.
Whereas now I get for free YouTube with an unlimited range of entertainment and education - which even in the 1990s would have cost £100s per year in videos and CDs.
Yes, and it's not just gizmos, either - look at the quality of housing. I think youngsters would be very shocked at the housing of thirty or forty years ago, which for many people had no central heating, really crude kitchens, no freezer, and maybe not even a proper bathroom for the poorer families.
When young people castigate baby boomers for enjoying a level of prosperity that is denied them, they implicitly mean upper middle class baby boomers. Lower middle, and working class baby boomers grew up in harsher conditions than prevail today.
When I think of rationing of basic foodstuffs, no central heating, interviews with a bank manager to get a mortgage (as much about class as affordability), holidays being practically restricted to Blackpool, working Saturday mornings and stuffy social conventions both inside and outside the workplace, I'm rather glad I wasn't a baby boomer.
Actually I'd swap the Saturday mornings for Wednesday afternoons... half days are pretty special!
The flip side is that the internet has become an other essential utility to pay for. Also, while options for televised entertainment have increased dramatically, if you take my interest - sport - it has become very expensive.
I tend to agree that we probably have never had it so good. What concerns me is sustainability. I don't think we've ever really confronted what happened in 2008. I fear it will happen again and next time it will be a lot worse.
The rising consumer debt is certainly getting very worrying. We are not well placed for riding through any Brexit turbulence, let alone some of the worse scenarios.
The problem is most people of my generation are simply incapable of living frugally. Most of the people I go to university with blow money they don't have on eating out, drinking, taxis home and regular foreign holidays. When I was paying off my student loan and then saving for a house deposit, I was keeping my food budget to £8 a day despite having a professional job. I was treated as some sort of odd pariah by the people who are complaining now about still having debts and not being able to afford a house.
I was musing on this the other day.
Most of my (largely upper middle class) Oxbridge peers only have houses with help from bank of Mum and Dad, whilst many more of my grammar school mates have houses that they funded for themselves....
The expectations and determination of the young to fulfil hedonistic desires for concerts, gadgets, holidays, cars, meals, drinks, meals, hen or stag weekends or weeks taxi fares and much else sets them apart from older generations.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
Exactly.
Also I think the idea of the young being spendthrifts is bollocks anyway, they drink far less than the previous generation for example. It's the baby boomers that have all the new cars and holidays in my experience.
Well let the tories continue this belief and continue to ignore the problems of now and the future and they will get what they deserve
The old vote in massive numbers. When the Tories tried to make them pay for their own care they almost lost the election.
Of course they are going to vote for more stuff for themselves and blame the young for it.
I was from a poor Mining family and the 1977 to 1980 period saw us get our first landline*. ( I just remember my mother taking us to a photo be box to ring our grandparents ). Our first record player with speakers and a tape recorder, our first Fridge Fridge as a single unit, our first clothes dryer and our first front loading washing machine. Our council house was ' modernised ' which meant we got our first central heating ( though still powered by the coal fire ) and double glazing. Our local council won a national award as it let tennants chose between 3 colours for the fitted kitchen which was a wonder in it's self.
This all sounds rather twee compared to the invention the of the internet and then the smart phone generation bit in terms of raw human comfort.....
We were on a waiting list for 13 weeks to get a line installed. My mother has the same phone number nearly 40 years later and routinely has it rejected by companies and officialdom as it doesn't have 11 digits and therefore may be " wrong ".
What baffles me: why do we still have to wait that long for a sofa from John Lewis, or DFS?
I don't buy the "we make them hand-made from scratch to order" shit.
Just come back from the shopping with my beloved and wondered if anything important has happened other than Donald Trump threatening to lay waste to the Country of North Korea as you would, and Vince Cable posing in a funny hat.
Was that Sir Vince of Cable who absolutely could be Prime Minister honest showing us what hat he would wear to the U.N. to show his disapproval of Trump?
Sarcasm aside, who was the last world leader who went to the U.N. and threatened to commit genocide?
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
I was just thinking that while not only would a TV probably cost less in absolute, let alone real, terms now than in 1976 but there was also only three channels to watch back then and even those only broadcast half of the day.
Whereas now I get for free YouTube with an unlimited range of entertainment and education - which even in the 1990s would have cost £100s per year in videos and CDs.
Yes, and it's not just gizmos, either - look at the quality of housing. I think youngsters would be very shocked at the housing of thirty or forty years ago, which for many people had no central heating, really crude kitchens, no freezer, and maybe not even a proper bathroom for the poorer families.
Essentially I'm hard pressed to think of much that costs less than about £30k that compared to 40 odd years ago isn't cheaper in real terms (short haul flights) better (cars), both (TVs) or unimaginable ( smart phones). The buggeration is the two biggies in terms of personal costs (well kids aside!), housing and pensions, cost a lot more.
You can afford a weekend in Malaga in a way that would've astonished 1977, but maybe because you can only "afford" to retire at 77 at the rate you're saving.
Live music and sport, I imagine.
But of course the ability to see them either repeated or live on the telly box for almost zero cost is entirely different.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
I was just thinking that while not only would a TV probably cost less in absolute, let alone real, terms now than in 1976 but there was also only three channels to watch back then and even those only broadcast half of the day.
Whereas now I get for free YouTube with an unlimited range of entertainment and education - which even in the 1990s would have cost £100s per year in videos and CDs.
Yes, and it's not just gizmos, either - look at the quality of housing. I think youngsters would be very shocked at the housing of thirty or forty years ago, which for many people had no central heating, really crude kitchens, no freezer, and maybe not even a proper bathroom for the poorer families.
When young people castigate baby boomers for enjoying a level of prosperity that is denied them, they implicitly mean upper middle class baby boomers. Lower middle, and working class baby boomers grew up in harsher conditions than prevail today.
When I think of rationing of basic foodstuffs, no central heating, interviews with a bank manager to get a mortgage (as much about class as affordability), holidays being practically restricted to Blackpool, working Saturday mornings and stuffy social conventions both inside and outside the workplace, I'm rather glad I wasn't a baby boomer.
There's more live footy on a weekend now than in a whole year in the 70's. Whether that's good or not is a different matter....
By 1987 to 1989 when I was doing my Economics GCSE our famously lefty teacher devoted a whole 4 lesson streak to the concept that a unemployed person on state benefits who was housed in a basic standard council property had a higher standard of living than Henry VIII had.
He kept on and on until we eventually worked through on our own what his point was. That that was objectively true but psychologically irrelevant. We're naked apes who judge our situation by our peers and recent events.
Which is frankly what's gone wrong since The Crash. Even half a generation departure from the previous trend in living standards has sent us crazy even though in the big picture it's minor and in the historic sweep the surge in living standards was exceptional not the current blip.
I don't often quote the journalist Paul Mason but his definition of Austerity is intriguing. " Decades and decades of falling western living standards until they meet rising Asian living standards in the middle. "
But no western politican can run on a " Your golden centuries are over, your objectively better off than Cleopatra was so stop moaning now it's the Chinese turn. "
In truth, the council tenant probably didn't. The plutocrats of the 16th century or the Roman Empire had a standard of living that was outstanding in any era. But, they did run a far higher risk of dying violently than their modern counterparts.
Also, you could be struck down and die by a variety of diseases and injuries at any time in your life that were lethal then, and would not be so today. Neither King or pauper was immune.
I often wonder if I'd still be alive today were I alive then, given I've had pneumonia once, and an tooth abscess twice, both of which were cured by antibiotics.
Shocking statistic - no fifteenth century king of England lived to see 50. Richard II (deposed 1399 died 1400) was 37, Henry IV 46, Henry V 35, Henry VI 49, Edward IV 42, Edward V 12, Richard III 33 and only Henry VII broke the trend by reaching 55.
And it is not as though all of them were murdered either - Henry IV, Henry V and Edward IV all died of natural causes, and Edward V was rumoured to be very ill when he mysteriously disappeared just after his uncle usurped the throne.
I was from a poor Mining family and the 1977 to 1980 period saw us get our first landline*. ( I just remember my mother taking us to a photo be box to ring our grandparents ). Our first record player with speakers and a tape recorder, our first Fridge Fridge as a single unit, our first clothes dryer and our first front loading washing machine. Our council house was ' modernised ' which meant we got our first central heating ( though still powered by the coal fire ) and double glazing. Our local council won a national award as it let tennants chose between 3 colours for the fitted kitchen which was a wonder in it's self.
This all sounds rather twee compared to the invention the of the internet and then the smart phone generation bit in terms of raw human comfort.....
We were on a waiting list for 13 weeks to get a line installed. My mother has the same phone number nearly 40 years later and routinely has it rejected by companies and officialdom as it doesn't have 11 digits and therefore may be " wrong ".
What baffles me: why do we still have to wait that long for a sofa from John Lewis, or DFS?
I don't buy the "we make them hand-made from scratch to order" shit.
Also the inability to get a car or boiler fixed without several day delay for a part. JIT has buffered the consumer wanting the fixer to have a stock...
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
Do keep up. The future of the UK is out of the EU.
I was just thinking that while not only would a TV probably cost less in absolute, let alone real, terms now than in 1976 but there was also only three channels to watch back then and even those only broadcast half of the day.
Whereas now I get for free YouTube with an unlimited range of entertainment and education - which even in the 1990s would have cost £100s per year in videos and CDs.
Yes, and it's not just gizmos, either - look at the quality of housing. I think youngsters would be very shocked at the housing of thirty or forty years ago, which for many people had no central heating, really crude kitchens, no freezer, and maybe not even a proper bathroom for the poorer families.
When young people castigate baby boomers for enjoying a level of prosperity that is denied them, they implicitly mean upper middle class baby boomers. Lower middle, and working class baby boomers grew up in harsher conditions than prevail today.
When I think of rationing of basic foodstuffs, no central heating, interviews with a bank manager to get a mortgage (as much about class as affordability), holidays being practically restricted to Blackpool, working Saturday mornings and stuffy social conventions both inside and outside the workplace, I'm rather glad I wasn't a baby boomer.
I suppose we should be thankfull in those days the working man could leave work on a saturday and afford to to to a division 1 football match and have a pint on the way home and pick up fish and chips. I bet no of those are "cheaper" today
The flip side is that the internet has become an other essential utility to pay for. Also, while options for televised entertainment have increased dramatically, if you take my interest - sport - it has become very expensive.
I tend to agree that we probably have never had it so good. What concerns me is sustainability. I don't think we've ever really confronted what happened in 2008. I fear it will happen again and next time it will be a lot worse.
The rising consumer debt is certainly getting very worrying. We are not well placed for riding through any Brexit turbulence, let alone some of the worse scenarios.
The problem is most people of my generation are simply incapable of living frugally. Most of the people I go to university with blow money they don't have on eating out, drinking, taxis home and regular foreign holidays. When I was paying off my student loan and then saving for a house deposit, I was keeping my food budget to £8 a day despite having a professional job. I was treated as some sort of odd pariah by the people who are complaining now about still having debts and not being able to afford a house.
I was musing on this the other day.
Most of my (largely upper middle class) Oxbridge peers only have houses with help from bank of Mum and Dad, whilst many more of my grammar school mates have houses that they funded for themselves....
The expectations and determination of the young to fulfil hedonistic desires for concerts, gadgets, holidays, cars, meals, drinks, meals, hen or stag weekends or weeks taxi fares and much else sets them apart from older generations.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
Exactly.
Also I think the idea of the young being spendthrifts is bollocks anyway, they drink far less than the previous generation for example. It's the baby boomers that have all the new cars and holidays in my experience.
A lot it of also comes from Conservative Millennials who are upset that their peers don't have much time for Conservatism. In the states this is especially the case; they are always moaning about left wing millennials and how terrible college will be because of all the lefties there etc.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
Why was economic growth, and even more so economic growth per capita, so much higher in the 1970s than it has been in recent years ?
That's a complex question, and I don't have anything a complete answer. But I believe some of the explanation might include:
- Europe and to a lesser extent the US were still rebuilding from WWII right into the 1970s. - Technological change, and its economic effects, are not consistent. You get periods of increasing wealth, followed by periods of relative stagnation. That has been the case for 200 years. - Big demographic changes, most notably the massive increase in the working population as women moved out of being housewives (thanks to supermarkets, vacuum cleaners and washing machines, largely) into the workforce. In particular, because of taxation changing from being joint to being individually-based, professional couples with two large incomes have received a huge tax advantage, increasing inequality. Plus the age profile change @rcs1000 has already mentioned.
I'm also rather sceptical of the base data. Measuring inflation over long periods is an extremely imprecise art, and I do wonder if it really captures improved the quality of goods. For example, in the 1950s until the 1970s, you could see the quantity of car ownership increasing. Eventually most reasonably prosperous families have the one or two cars they want, and they are not going to buy any more, However, the average family car today is massively better than the average family car of 1970. Have the inflation statistics captured this properly? Indeed, is it even logically possible to compare a modern car - complete with stereo, ABS, air conditioning, power steering, electric windows, remote locking, etc etc) with my first car (a second-hand Austin Allegro, since you ask. The handbrake fell off soon after I'd bought it).
What I do know is that the average family, and especially the poorest, have a standard of living today which is hugely better than that of their equivalents of thirty or forty years ago. We shouldn't forget that.
The standard of living in the UK declined from about 1500 to the 1690s, despite technological advances. Food took well over half of a families income, and that's basic food. Only merchants and above could afford meat and fish. It's since the industrial revolution that economic growth has been (fairly) consistent.
Your point on vacuum cleaners and housewifes illustrates how new technology can sometimes create many new jobs.
No doubt there were some at the time who worried that such fads would put a lot of domestic servants out of work, with little upside.
"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid."
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
Depends who you talk too. My folks went out for a couple of meals a year. And lived with Dad's folks to save for a deposit.
I was from a poor Mining family and the 1977 to 1980 period saw us get our first landline*. ( I just remember my mother taking us to a photo be box to ring our grandparents ). Our first record player with speakers and a tape recorder, our first Fridge Fridge as a single unit, our first clothes dryer and our first front loading washing machine. Our council house was ' modernised ' which meant we got our first central heating ( though still powered by the coal fire ) and double glazing. Our local council won a national award as it let tennants chose between 3 colours for the fitted kitchen which was a wonder in it's self.
This all sounds rather twee compared to the invention the of the internet and then the smart phone generation bit in terms of raw human comfort.....
We were on a waiting list for 13 weeks to get a line installed. My mother has the same phone number nearly 40 years later and routinely has it rejected by companies and officialdom as it doesn't have 11 digits and therefore may be " wrong ".
What baffles me: why do we still have to wait that long for a sofa from John Lewis, or DFS?
I don't buy the "we make them hand-made from scratch to order" shit.
DFS ???
Please reassure me that's out of loyalty to a fellow Conservative.
I was just thinking that while not only would a TV probably cost less in absolute, let alone real, terms now than in 1976 but there was also only three channels to watch back then and even those only broadcast half of the day.
Whereas now I get for free YouTube with an unlimited range of entertainment and education - which even in the 1990s would have cost £100s per year in videos and CDs.
Yes, and it's not just gizmos, either - look at the quality of housing. I think youngsters would be very shocked at the housing of thirty or forty years ago, which for many people had no central heating, really crude kitchens, no freezer, and maybe not even a proper bathroom for the poorer families.
When young people castigate baby boomers for enjoying a level of prosperity that is denied them, they implicitly mean upper middle class baby boomers. Lower middle, and working class baby boomers grew up in harsher conditions than prevail today.
When I think of rationing of basic foodstuffs, no central heating, interviews with a bank manager to get a mortgage (as much about class as affordability), holidays being practically restricted to Blackpool, working Saturday mornings and stuffy social conventions both inside and outside the workplace, I'm rather glad I wasn't a baby boomer.
I suppose we should be thankfull in those days the working man could leave work on a saturday and afford to to to a division 1 football match and have a pint on the way home and pick up fish and chips. I bet no of those are "cheaper" today
It's nostalgia, of course, but I suspect, on the upside, there was a much stronger sense of community through working men's clubs, pubs, local football teams, nonconformist churches and their extended families.
When it comes to emotional contentment and happiness, not everything is about the money.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
Do keep up. The future of the UK is out of the EU.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
My local town has less pubs than 30 years ago, however there are many more coffee shops, clubs and restaurants. The balance of entertainment has changed. There are many more taxis, airports and flights. They aren't all filled by the young, but the change is monumental.
Just come back from the shopping with my beloved and wondered if anything important has happened other than Donald Trump threatening to lay waste to the Country of North Korea as you would, and Vince Cable posing in a funny hat.
Was that Sir Vince of Cable who absolutely could be Prime Minister honest showing us what hat he would wear to the U.N. to show his disapproval of Trump?
Sarcasm aside, who was the last world leader who went to the U.N. and threatened to commit genocide?
It was rather extreme but this is Trump and as for Vince and his hat I thought he wanted to be known as a serious politician. By the way what are the betting odds on Vince being PM
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
@Sean_F Yes it all depends how you define living standards. My lefty teacher was through the in the BBC, public libraries, access to the NHS. What would Henry Vlll have made of those ? Or the sight of the food available in a modern Tesco ? What would have one short course of antibiotics have fetched in Alexander the Great's day. Does a British child playing with a cheap Android tablet have access to greater riches than say Da Vinci ? But you are right. It's a parlour game and depends on your definitions.
Of course Henry or his subjects couldn't compare their standard of living with ours still less do anything about it if they could. Those less fortunate than us around the world now though can. They can compare their "sixteenth century"(sort of) lifestyle with ours on a phone but of course don't need a time machine to do anything about it. Hence migrant flows. The visibility of the world is far greater than even fifteen years ago.
The buggeration is the two biggies in terms of personal costs (well kids aside!), housing and pensions, cost a lot more.
Pensions remains tricky, but it is kind of ridiculous how little housing has evolved, where are the robot-built shiny glass bubble of science fiction? A pile of bricks has remained the standard form of housing for a long time. If we could modernise housing we might tackle the cost and shortage a lot more easily.
I was from a poor Mining family and the 1977 to 1980 period saw us get our first landline*. ( I just remember my mother taking us to a photo be box to ring our grandparents ). Our first record player with speakers and a tape recorder, our first Fridge Fridge as a single unit, our first clothes dryer and our first front loading washing machine. Our council house was ' modernised ' which meant we got our first central heating ( though still powered by the coal fire ) and double glazing. Our local council won a national award as it let tennants chose between 3 colours for the fitted kitchen which was a wonder in it's self.
This all sounds rather twee compared to the invention the of the internet and then the smart phone generation bit in terms of raw human comfort.....
We were on a waiting list for 13 weeks to get a line installed. My mother has the same phone number nearly 40 years later and routinely has it rejected by companies and officialdom as it doesn't have 11 digits and therefore may be " wrong ".
What baffles me: why do we still have to wait that long for a sofa from John Lewis, or DFS?
I don't buy the "we make them hand-made from scratch to order" shit.
Also the inability to get a car or boiler fixed without several day delay for a part. JIT has buffered the consumer wanting the fixer to have a stock...
I'm waiting for someone to twist it into a point about Brexit and just-in-time delivery..
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
You have your good days, and your less good days.
But, I still like you.
On a day when the most confident boast of the site's Brexiters was that we probably wouldn't have food riots on the current trajectory, a note of humility from the headbanging Europhobes would be welcome.
I was from a poor Mining family and the 1977 to 1980 period saw us get our first landline*. ( I just remember my mother taking us to a photo be box to ring our grandparents ). Our first record player with speakers and a tape recorder, our first Fridge Fridge as a single unit, our first clothes dryer and our first front loading washing machine. Our council house was ' modernised ' which meant we got our first central heating ( though still powered by the coal fire ) and double glazing. Our local council won a national award as it let tennants chose between 3 colours for the fitted kitchen which was a wonder in it's self.
This all sounds rather twee compared to the invention the of the internet and then the smart phone generation bit in terms of raw human comfort.....
We were on a waiting list for 13 weeks to get a line installed. My mother has the same phone number nearly 40 years later and routinely has it rejected by companies and officialdom as it doesn't have 11 digits and therefore may be " wrong ".
What baffles me: why do we still have to wait that long for a sofa from John Lewis, or DFS?
I don't buy the "we make them hand-made from scratch to order" shit.
DFS ???
Please reassure me that's out of loyalty to a fellow Conservative.
Nah, my wife and I went with Sofology.
Superb product (and we compared with everywhere else to check first) but the same 12 week+ waiting time b0ll0cks.
I was from a poor Mining family and the 1977 to 1980 period saw us get our first landline*. ( I just remember my mother taking us to a photo be box to ring our grandparents ). Our first record player with speakers and a tape recorder, our first Fridge Fridge as a single unit, our first clothes dryer and our first front loading washing machine. Our council house was ' modernised ' which meant we got our first central heating ( though still powered by the coal fire ) and double glazing. Our local council won a national award as it let tennants chose between 3 colours for the fitted kitchen which was a wonder in it's self.
This all sounds rather twee compared to the invention the of the internet and then the smart phone generation bit in terms of raw human comfort.....
We were on a waiting list for 13 weeks to get a line installed. My mother has the same phone number nearly 40 years later and routinely has it rejected by companies and officialdom as it doesn't have 11 digits and therefore may be " wrong ".
What baffles me: why do we still have to wait that long for a sofa from John Lewis, or DFS?
I don't buy the "we make them hand-made from scratch to order" shit.
Also the inability to get a car or boiler fixed without several day delay for a part. JIT has buffered the consumer wanting the fixer to have a stock...
I'm waiting for someone to twist it into a point about Brexit and just-in-time delivery..
I had to get a part replaced in some equipment recently and was shocked at the price and delay for a very tiny part. Apparently its gone from being an item in stock, to an item being delivered "just in time" (which means when ordering for repairs) to being made to order.
Meaning far worse delays and double the price as they're not made in batches anymore.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
Depends who you talk too. My folks went out for a couple of meals a year. And lived with Dad's folks to save for a deposit.
My folks - re you referring to your parents or your friends? I've been out for a meal twice this year. I didn't see that as frugal. Frugal is not going out for a meal at all. If that's your definition of frugal, I wonder how often you think young people are going out for a meal.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
You have your good days, and your less good days.
But, I still like you.
On a day when the most confident boast of the site's Brexiters was that we probably wouldn't have food riots on the current trajectory, a note of humility from the headbanging Europhobes would be welcome.
Nah, sorry. Too happy with my "sink the French and the EU" beer.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
You have your good days, and your less good days.
But, I still like you.
On a day when the most confident boast of the site's Brexiters was that we probably wouldn't have food riots on the current trajectory, a note of humility from the headbanging Europhobes would be welcome.
That was made because some Remainer suggested there would be food riots.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
@Sean_F Yes it all depends how you define living standards. My lefty teacher was through the in the BBC, public libraries, access to the NHS. What would Henry Vlll have made of those ? Or the sight of the food available in a modern Tesco ? What would have one short course of antibiotics have fetched in Alexander the Great's day. Does a British child playing with a cheap Android tablet have access to greater riches than say Da Vinci ? But you are right. It's a parlour game and depends on your definitions.
Many of the comforts we take for granted were available hundreds of years ago, but only to a very small elite, rather than to the large majority. Windsor Castle in the 14th century had hot and cold running water, and flushing toilets, but Edward III's daughter was struck down with plague at 16. Medical advances do make a huge difference.
By 1987 to 1989 when I was doing my Economics GCSE our famously lefty teacher devoted a whole 4 lesson streak to the concept that a unemployed person on state benefits who was housed in a basic standard council property had a higher standard of living than Henry VIII had.
He kept on and on until we eventually worked through on our own what his point was. That that was objectively true but psychologically irrelevant. We're naked apes who judge our situation by our peers and recent events.
Which is frankly what's gone wrong since The Crash. Even half a generation departure from the previous trend in living standards has sent us crazy even though in the big picture it's minor and in the historic sweep the surge in living standards was exceptional not the current blip.
I don't often quote the journalist Paul Mason but his definition of Austerity is intriguing. " Decades and decades of falling western living standards until they meet rising Asian living standards in the middle. "
But no western politican can run on a " Your golden centuries are over, your objectively better off than Cleopatra was so stop moaning now it's the Chinese turn. "
In truth, the council tenant probably didn't. The plutocrats of the 16th century or the Roman Empire had a standard of living that was outstanding in any era. But, they did run a far higher risk of dying violently than their modern counterparts.
Also, you could be struck down and die by a variety of diseases and injuries at any time in your life that were lethal then, and would not be so today. Neither King or pauper was immune.
I often wonder if I'd still be alive today were I alive then, given I've had pneumonia once, and an tooth abscess twice, both of which were cured by antibiotics.
I would have died at the age of 46, from appendicitis. But, probably, a bad dose of flu would have carried me off before then.
I was just thinking that while not only would a TV probably cost less in absolute, let alone real, terms now than in 1976 but there was also only three channels to watch back then and even those only broadcast half of the day.
Whereas now I get for free YouTube with an unlimited range of entertainment and education - which even in the 1990s would have cost £100s per year in videos and CDs.
Yes, and it's not just gizmos, either - look at the quality of housing. I think youngsters would be very shocked at the housing of thirty or forty years ago, which for many people had no central heating, really crude kitchens, no freezer, and maybe not even a proper bathroom for the poorer families.
When young people castigate baby boomers for enjoying a level of prosperity that is denied them, they implicitly mean upper middle class baby boomers. Lower middle, and working class baby boomers grew up in harsher conditions than prevail today.
When I think of rationing of basic foodstuffs, no central heating, interviews with a bank manager to get a mortgage (as much about class as affordability), holidays being practically restricted to Blackpool, working Saturday mornings and stuffy social conventions both inside and outside the workplace, I'm rather glad I wasn't a baby boomer.
I suppose we should be thankfull in those days the working man could leave work on a saturday and afford to to to a division 1 football match and have a pint on the way home and pick up fish and chips. I bet no of those are "cheaper" today
It's nostalgia, of course, but I suspect, on the upside, there was a much stronger sense of community through working men's clubs, pubs, local football teams, nonconformist churches and their extended families.
When it comes to emotional contentment and happiness, not everything is about the money.
The northern CIU network of WMC's was wonderfull i caught the end in the late 70's and they were a unify influence, they didnt care about clas or background you just had to ply by their rules and were most welcoming. They also provided a platform for entertainment talent which is lost today
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
The word cloud thing is nonsense as the word "immigration" is crystal clear and is the only word used for that subject whereas "sovereignty" may be said many different ways: "control", "our own laws" etc etc etc all mean the same thing but it is about how you say it. There isn't a single word that sums it up that is universally accepted and used by everyone.
You can see on the graph that sovereignty > immigration.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
Depends who you talk too. My folks went out for a couple of meals a year. And lived with Dad's folks to save for a deposit.
My folks - re you referring to your parents or your friends? I've been out for a meal twice this year. I didn't see that as frugal. Frugal is not going out for a meal at all. If that's your definition of frugal, I wonder how often you think young people are going out for a meal.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
You have your good days, and your less good days.
But, I still like you.
On a day when the most confident boast of the site's Brexiters was that we probably wouldn't have food riots on the current trajectory, a note of humility from the headbanging Europhobes would be welcome.
That was made because some Remainer suggested there would be food riots.
Context is all.
Looking at the size of the people in Bury market the other day, I think food riots might be just what is needed.
The flip side is that the internet has become an other essential utility to pay for. Also, while options for televised entertainment have increased dramatically, if you take my interest - sport - it has become very expensive.
I tend to agree that we probably have never had it so good. What concerns me is sustainability. I don't think we've ever really confronted what happened in 2008. I fear it will happen again and next time it will be a lot worse.
The rising consumer debt is certainly getting very worrying. We are not well placed for riding through any Brexit turbulence, let alone some of the worse scenarios.
The problem is most people of my generation are simply incapable of living frugally. Most of the people I go to university with blow money they don't have on eating out, drinking, taxis home and regular foreign holidays. When I was paying off my student loan and then saving for a house deposit, I was keeping my food budget to £8 a day despite having a professional job. I was treated as some sort of odd pariah by the people who are complaining now about still having debts and not being able to afford a house.
I was musing on this the other day.
Most of my (largely upper middle class) Oxbridge peers only have houses with help from bank of Mum and Dad, whilst many more of my grammar school mates have houses that they funded for themselves....
The expectations and determination of the young to fulfil hedonistic desires for concerts, gadgets, holidays, cars, meals, drinks, meals, hen or stag weekends or weeks taxi fares and much else sets them apart from older generations.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
Exactly.
Also I think the idea of the young being spendthrifts is bollocks anyway, they drink far less than the previous generation for example. It's the baby boomers that have all the new cars and holidays in my experience.
A lot it of also comes from Conservative Millennials who are upset that their peers don't have much time for Conservatism. In the states this is especially the case; they are always moaning about left wing millennials and how terrible college will be because of all the lefties there etc.
If you want your university years to be a roller coaster rebellion against oppressive establishment orthodoxy, the best way is to be a die-hard Conservative
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
You have your good days, and your less good days.
But, I still like you.
On a day when the most confident boast of the site's Brexiters was that we probably wouldn't have food riots on the current trajectory, a note of humility from the headbanging Europhobes would be welcome.
Maybe we'll be lucky, just have food riots. Perhaps, it will be like the Day of the Triffids.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
The word cloud thing is nonsense as the word "immigration" is crystal clear and is the only word used for that subject whereas "sovereignty" may be said many different ways: "control", "our own laws" etc etc etc all mean the same thing but it is about how you say it. There isn't a single word that sums it up that is universally accepted and used by everyone.
You can see on the graph that sovereignty > immigration.
There's none so blind as will not see, even when the word leaps off the screen into the face.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
Globalisation is not something you can successfully opt out of, as Brexit will show. The key is to do globalisation smarter.
We were opting out of the EU, not globalisation.
Strictly speaking, you're correct. Actually Brexit is a de facto opt out of globalisation. The EU is a globalist construct. Theoretically we can say we don't want THAT globalisation, but something else. But unless we can create a realistic alternative that everyone, and just us talking to ourselves, buys into, it remains simply a rejection of globalisation. That's where we are. Now I think it is likely we won't fully opt out of either globalisation or the EU system but instead end up in a compromised mess.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Be used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Be used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
Absolutely. 3.something % beer is much more drinkable, I think...
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
My local town has less pubs than 30 years ago, however there are many more coffee shops, clubs and restaurants. The balance of entertainment has changed. There are many more taxis, airports and flights. They aren't all filled by the young, but the change is monumental.
Just observational, there is no judgement
Don't see why you contrasted pubs with all the other things - it's hardly like you have to be rich in order to go to a coffee shop. You can get a cup of tea in costa (IIRC) for £1.30. I personally don't like pubs and would much rather go to a coffee shop. I prefer that setting. I don't see how it would be an example of a hedonistic lifestyle,
Clubs and clubbing have existed for decades now, they aren't new. I'm not a regular club goer though, I'd say I've gone to a club once/twice a year.
Resturants have grown because there is a market - most of it isn't really about young, single people but about attracting middle-class families. In my family it's those who are upper middle class who I see going to restaurants the most, and when I've been in restaurants I see families there mostly.
I don't see how more taxis prove a hedonistic lifestyle either - all it shows is that there's more competition now. What I'm seeing is that smartphones have changed the nature how people get taxis now - most people I know use an uber because it's convenient.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
The rot set in with generation X. They were the first ones to be brought up in the "everyone's a winner, no matter how hard you try" education mentality of loony local authorities in the late 1970s. But it had truly taken over among millennials. There's nothing wrong with enjoying yourself *when you can afford it*. The problem with my generation is they do it when they have a couple hundred quid in their bank account and no property or pension to their name. I've known graduates that have blamed the school system for not teaching them how to manage their money, as if they needed a class to point out you shouldn't spend money on stupid crap when you don't have financial security sorted yet.
And now they vote Corbyn to try to get for free what is responsible ones sacrificed for.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
You have your good days, and your less good days.
But, I still like you.
On a day when the most confident boast of the site's Brexiters was that we probably wouldn't have food riots on the current trajectory, a note of humility from the headbanging Europhobes would be welcome.
As I understand it Trump "totally destroying" DPRK is as big a fantasy as hard Brexit with Europe giving in to our "reasonable" demands. The US cant fire its ICBMs - Russia and China not minded to wait for apogee to see if they are getting hit. It can't accurately use air-dropped nukes and guarantee getting Kim's launchers. It can't go after DPRK at all without risking nuclear strikes on Seoul or Tokyo or perhaps L.A.
In short it's Trump demonstrating to the world what an impotent fuck he really is
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
They make a Christmas brew called 12 days. Nectar of the Gods
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
I am sure Jean Claude Juncker would tell you it is impossible under the utopian European regulations for there to be too much alcohol in something.
Mind you, he might be giggling inanely, swaying and giving the Nazi salute while he said it.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
Depends who you talk too. My folks went out for a couple of meals a year. And lived with Dad's folks to save for a deposit.
My folks - re you referring to your parents or your friends? I've been out for a meal twice this year. I didn't see that as frugal. Frugal is not going out for a meal at all. If that's your definition of frugal, I wonder how often you think young people are going out for a meal.
Most of my mates go out for (at least) two meals a week. Seriously.
I probably eat out about 5 times a week, though this is largely because I work somewhat peripatetically.
Where are your mates going out for meals? Unless it's McDonalds or something (that's pretty cheap) they must have some dosh. I tend to out to somewhere like Wagamamas, TGI Fridays, or Nandos which can cost a bit, which is why I keep it to a once in a while thing.
I was trying to show there is more than one way to look at a situation. The idea that the "Seventies were Hell" is patent nonsense yet oft repeated. Most people got better off. The quality of life grew. And the fact is that the Tories were in power 5 years of the 70's.
It was an abysmal decade, especially for anyone working in industry. Easily the worst of my lifetime, and I'm into my seventh. (Don't remember much about the first, though!)
For you maybe. Not for me or my neighbours.
.
That's all true but ...
Why was economic growth, and even more so economic growth per capita, so much higher in the 1970s than it has been in recent years ?
And not unrelated productivity and wages increased much more rapidly in the 1970s than they have since 2000.
And this isn't a British problem either - every first world country has it to varying extent.
Either they were doing something right in the 1970s (and 1980s and 1990s for that matter) which we're not anyone, or we're now doing something wrong, or perhaps the first world has reached some economic plateau from which we don't have the means to escape.
Globalisation and the lifting out of abject and total poverty of some of the poorest in the world?
Globalisation has been great for most inhabitants of poor countries, but not for the working classes in rich countries. In terms of boosting overall human happiness, that's great, but that's cold comfort if you're the one whose job disappears.
Globalisation is not something you can successfully opt out of, as Brexit will show. The key is to do globalisation smarter.
We were opting out of the EU, not globalisation.
yes but FF43 is currently opting out of reality so youre not going to win that one
I'm so opted out of reality that I think your comments wonderfully clever.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Be used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Be used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
Absolutely. 3.something % beer is much more drinkable, I think...
Lot to be said for this. 4% was fairly rare, let alone 5%. 3.7/3.8% was the norm. Tasty too. Pleasingly our local has guest beers now and there's usually an "old fashioned" weaker pint or two on offer again these days.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
Very true it was those awfull southen beers that did it, nine pints of tetlys was doable but five pints of brakespears would leave me on my back
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
You have your good days, and your less good days.
But, I still like you.
On a day when the most confident boast of the site's Brexiters was that we probably wouldn't have food riots on the current trajectory, a note of humility from the headbanging Europhobes would be welcome.
That was made because some Remainer suggested there would be food riots.
Context is all.
Looking at the size of the people in Bury market the other day, I think food riots might be just what is needed.
It has been pointed out several times that the Conservatives were in power for half of the 1970's. They gave us the 3-day week and rolling power cuts.
A bit of a rewrite of history there. It was the unions - which had been allowed to grow vicious and all-powerful under Wilson - which gave us the 3-day week and rolling power cuts. It's true that Heath failed to slay the monster, but the next Tory PM did, thank God.
They live in cloud cuckoo land. They genuinely think more economic damage will come from being an independent country than in trying to replace capitalism.
What's cloud cuckoo land is believing that Britain isn't currently an independent country. People with such a tenuous grasp of reality as to believe that are going to steer the country onto the rocks.
If you believe Remain's own forecasts, already proven overly pessimistic, the "rocks" mean a slightly reduced rate of growth that will gradually cause a differential over a couple decades. Corbyn style socialism has ended in full blown economic depression everywhere it has been tried. Even if you take the negative establishment view on Brexit, it is lunacy to put Corbyn in No 10 to stop it. Even more so when he has said he will go through with it.
But then the anti-Brexiteers are driven by religious anger and zealotry, not logic.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
The word cloud thing is nonsense as the word "immigration" is crystal clear and is the only word used for that subject whereas "sovereignty" may be said many different ways: "control", "our own laws" etc etc etc all mean the same thing but it is about how you say it. There isn't a single word that sums it up that is universally accepted and used by everyone.
You can see on the graph that sovereignty > immigration.
There's none so blind as will not see, even when the word leaps off the screen into the face.
Clearly leaps from third place in the graph yes - second place on the graph for Leavers.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
Depends who you talk too. My folks went out for a couple of meals a year. And lived with Dad's folks to save for a deposit.
My folks - re you referring to your parents or your friends? I've been out for a meal twice this year. I didn't see that as frugal. Frugal is not going out for a meal at all. If that's your definition of frugal, I wonder how often you think young people are going out for a meal.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
Depends who you talk too. My folks went out for a couple of meals a year. And lived with Dad's folks to save for a deposit.
My folks - re you referring to your parents or your friends? I've been out for a meal twice this year. I didn't see that as frugal. Frugal is not going out for a meal at all. If that's your definition of frugal, I wonder how often you think young people are going out for a meal.
Most of my mates go out for (at least) two meals a week. Seriously.
I probably eat out about 5 times a week, though this is largely because I work somewhat peripatetically.
Where are your mates going out for meals? Unless it's McDonalds or something (that's pretty cheap) they must have some dosh. I tend to out to somewhere like Wagamamas, TGI Fridays, or Nandos which can cost a bit, which is why I keep it to a once in a while thing.
Yep. It is costly. Most of the non-lawyers/city types are on 30-35k ish - though the ones that go out the most don't have houses...
If you want your university years to be a roller coaster rebellion against oppressive establishment orthodoxy, the best way is to be a die-hard Conservative
Reminds me of that PLJW quote about conservatism being the 'new counter culture.' Then again he also thought Gen Z would be right wing
Why was economic growth, and even more so economic growth per capita, so much higher in the 1970s than it has been in recent years ?
And not unrelated productivity and wages increased much more rapidly in the 1970s than they have since 2000.
And this isn't a British problem either - every first world country has it to varying extent.
Either they were doing something right in the 1970s (and 1980s and 1990s for that matter) which we're not anyone, or we're now doing something wrong, or perhaps the first world has reached some economic plateau from which we don't have the means to escape.
A Marxist economist would tell you it is because the rate of profit has declined, as is its wont to do in the long-term. See, for example, this blog post.
As to what you do about it I'm not sure. Revolution anyone?
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or Snip
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
My local town has less pubs than 30 years ago, however there are many more coffee shops, clubs and restaurants. The balance of entertainment has changed. There are many more taxis, airports and flights. They aren't all filled by the young, but the change is monumental.
Just observational, there is no judgement
Don't see why you contrasted pubs with all the other things - it's hardly like you have to be rich in order to go to a coffee shop. You can get a cup of tea in costa (IIRC) for £1.30. I personally don't like pubs and would much rather go to a coffee shop. I prefer that setting. I don't see how it would be an example of a hedonistic lifestyle,
Clubs and clubbing have existed for decades now, they aren't new. I'm not a regular club goer though, I'd say I've gone to a club once/twice a year.
Resturants have grown because there is a market - most of it isn't really about young, single people but about attracting middle-class families. In my family it's those who are upper middle class who I see going to restaurants the most, and when I've been in restaurants I see families there mostly.
I don't see how more taxis prove a hedonistic lifestyle either - all it shows is that there's more competition now. What I'm seeing is that smartphones have changed the nature how people get taxis now - most people I know use an uber because it's convenient.
I hope taxis are in part down to drink drive.
Pubs are included as they are symptomatic of change.
I don't mind the change, but it is a massive change in expectations of entertainment, regularity of entertainment type of entertainment and I suspect the percentage of income spent on entertainment.
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
Very true it was those awfull southen beers that did it, nine pints of tetlys was doable but five pints of brakespears would leave me on my back
Indeed. Though the sheer liquid volume of nine pints scares me!
If you want your university years to be a roller coaster rebellion against oppressive establishment orthodoxy, the best way is to be a die-hard Conservative
Reminds me of that PLJW quote about conservatism being the 'new counter culture.' Then again he also thought Gen Z would be right wing
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
The leave vote was overwhemingly about immigration.
I think immigration was a very big part of it. But, it was also a judgement on 44 years of EU membership.
But, if David Cameron had got serious movement from the EU on the substance of his Bloomberg speech, far fewer of his parliamentary party and activists would have backed Leave, which would have made a huge difference.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
They make a Christmas brew called 12 days. Nectar of the Gods
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
Come on, if you're sinking the French you need a bit of welly.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
I'd rather drink 3 pints of Peroni than 9 pints of Tetleys.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
They make a Christmas brew called 12 days. Nectar of the Gods
I'm glad we can bond over proper beer.
This is good stuff.
You want to try cotllieghs den nose rein beer 6.5 but only hve one
Globalisation is not something you can successfully opt out of, as Brexit will show. The key is to do globalisation smarter.
We were opting out of the EU, not globalisation.
Strictly speaking, you're correct. Actually Brexit is a de facto opt out of globalisation. The EU is a globalist construct. Theoretically we can say we don't want THAT globalisation, but something else. But unless we can create a realistic alternative that everyone, and just us talking to ourselves, buys into, it remains simply a rejection of globalisation. That's where we are. Now I think it is likely we won't fully opt out of either globalisation or the EU system but instead end up in a compromised mess.
The EU predates globalisation. It's a post WWII political project, with historical roots even further back, that seeks to politically unite Europe.
youre young you have sod all chance of getting a house Osborne is taxing your ass off on fees why wouldnt you enjoy a bit of life ? you cant really aspire to the life style of previous generations
+1. The way the Zeitgeist and Mortimer talk, you'd think it's only those under the age of thirty (or even mid thirties and under) that are struggling with buying at house at the moment. The Tories forget that they lost even those in their early to mid forties at the GE - which goes beyond the Zeitgeist's and Mortimer's generation into Gen X. According to YouGov's how Britain voted in 2017 data, the Conservatives have a lead only among the retired and lost among students, those employed and those unemployed. The Tories are being rejected by those of working age in general, not merely 'naive' young people.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
The rot set in with generation X. They were the first ones to be brought up in the "everyone's a winner, no matter how hard you try" education mentality of loony local authorities in the late 1970s. But it had truly taken over among millennials. There's nothing wrong with enjoying yourself *when you can afford it*. The problem with my generation is they do it when they have a couple hundred quid in their bank account and no property or pension to their name. I've known graduates that have blamed the school system for not teaching them how to manage their money, as if they needed a class to point out you shouldn't spend money on stupid crap when you don't have financial security sorted yet.
And now they vote Corbyn to try to get for free what is responsible ones sacrificed for.
Until recently every generation had better life chances than their parents. That has gone into reverse. Now you vote to lock in that inequality and are surprised when young people aren't happy with their life. Give over
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
They make a Christmas brew called 12 days. Nectar of the Gods
I'm glad we can bond over proper beer.
This is good stuff.
You want to try cotllieghs den nose rein beer 6.5 but only hve one
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
Very true it was those awfull southen beers that did it, nine pints of tetlys was doable but five pints of brakespears would leave me on my back
Indeed. Though the sheer liquid volume of nine pints scares me!
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
I'd rather drink 3 pints of Peroni than 9 pints of Tetleys.
I'd rather drink zero pints of Peroni than one pint of Tetley...
But, if David Cameron had got serious movement from the EU on the substance of his Bloomberg speech, far fewer of his parliamentary party and activists would have backed Leave, which would have made a huge difference.
Cameron would have probably done better with no "renegotiation" at all. It simply reinforced that the EU has one direction of travel, as Juncker has made abundantly clear now.
The rot set in with generation X. They were the first ones to be brought up in the "everyone's a winner, no matter how hard you try" education mentality of loony local authorities in the late 1970s. But it had truly taken over among millennials. There's nothing wrong with enjoying yourself *when you can afford it*. The problem with my generation is they do it when they have a couple hundred quid in their bank account and no property or pension to their name. I've known graduates that have blamed the school system for not teaching them how to manage their money, as if they needed a class to point out you shouldn't spend money on stupid crap when you don't have financial security sorted yet.
And now they vote Corbyn to try to get for free what is responsible ones sacrificed for.
LOL at what you said about gen X. Blimey. So you don't like two generations, then?
When I was at school I was never told 'everyone's a winner'. This is a message I also see referenced about the education system under New Labour, but as someone who went school during that period I cannot recall that message, or anything implying such being told to us. Instead, the biggest implied message we got is 'YOU MUST GO UNI OR YOU ARE A FAILURE'.
Also, this idea anyone is getting anything 'for free' is bizarre. Most of those voting for him are either students (people that will pay tax in the future), or those who are already tax payers.
And LOL at the idea that no one who is fiscally responsible voted for Corbyn.
There's another problem with modern life. Beer needn't be 5.3%
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
I'd rather drink 3 pints of Peroni than 9 pints of Tetleys.
I'd rather drink zero pints of Peroni than one pint of Tetley...
There's none so blind as cannot see. Brexit was explicitly campaigned for as an opt out of the complexities of the modern world, a howl against immigration and homo economicus. Unfortunately, all that will do is leave Britain still worse placed to deal with the modern world.
That's mostly nonsense. Apart from die-hard kippers most people want immigration and trade to continue, what they don't want is rules drawn up by the EU, but instead rules that suit us.
A perfect example of the use of "most people" to mean "me".
The leave vote was overwhemingly about immigration.
I think immigration was a very big part of it. But, it was also a judgement on 44 years of EU membership.
But, if David Cameron had got serious movement from the EU on the substance of his Bloomberg speech, far fewer of his parliamentary party and activists would have backed Leave, which would have made a huge difference.
If Cameron had got serious movement, Remain would have have won.
Comments
I often wonder if I'd still be alive today were I alive then, given I've had pneumonia once, and an tooth abscess twice, both of which were cured by antibiotics.
Of course they are going to vote for more stuff for themselves and blame the young for it.
I don't buy the "we make them hand-made from scratch to order" shit.
Sarcasm aside, who was the last world leader who went to the U.N. and threatened to commit genocide?
But of course the ability to see them either repeated or live on the telly box for almost zero cost is entirely different.
Also, the idea that older generations never went to concerts, never went on holiday, and never went out for a drink or a meal is truly hilarious. Talking to my mum (in her forties) and other family friends in their fifties and sixties, they spent much of their youth going out to parties, clubbing, going to the cinema, shopping, going out for meals, and went on holiday too. And they came from working class backgrounds. So the idea that these desires are specific to just my generation is a ridiculous assertion.
And it is not as though all of them were murdered either - Henry IV, Henry V and Edward IV all died of natural causes, and Edward V was rumoured to be very ill when he mysteriously disappeared just after his uncle usurped the throne.
Time to get with the times granddad.
Your point on vacuum cleaners and housewifes illustrates how new technology can sometimes create many new jobs.
No doubt there were some at the time who worried that such fads would put a lot of domestic servants out of work, with little upside.
"I believe what really happens in history is this: the old man is
always wrong; and the young people are always wrong about what is
wrong with him. The practical form it takes is this: that, while the
old man may stand by some stupid custom, the young man always attacks
it with some theory that turns out to be equally stupid."
Please reassure me that's out of loyalty to a fellow Conservative.
When it comes to emotional contentment and happiness, not everything is about the money.
Just observational, there is no judgement
But, I still like you.
Remember: in Waitrose; no Leavers. None at all.
https://twitter.com/casinoroyalepb/status/910209139225321472
Superb product (and we compared with everywhere else to check first) but the same 12 week+ waiting time b0ll0cks.
Meaning far worse delays and double the price as they're not made in batches anymore.
Re saving for a deposit, I'm happy for your friends but the reality is it's not easy for most when this is the case: https://www.theguardian.com/money/2017/mar/17/average-house-price-times-annual-salary-official-figures-ons
The name is ideal for us swivel-eyed loons...
Also what the polling evidence showed.
Context is all.
You can see on the graph that sovereignty > immigration.
Most of my mates go out for (at least) two meals a week. Seriously.
I probably eat out about 5 times a week, though this is largely because I work somewhat peripatetically.
What the Actual Fuck?
Beer used to be closer to 3.3%. Your 5.3 is an increase of roughly 60% in alcohol content from a standard beer. 60% more alcohol than you get in a beer of about 3.3%. Think about it.
Beer and wine have too much alcohol now.
Clubs and clubbing have existed for decades now, they aren't new. I'm not a regular club goer though, I'd say I've gone to a club once/twice a year.
Resturants have grown because there is a market - most of it isn't really about young, single people but about attracting middle-class families. In my family it's those who are upper middle class who I see going to restaurants the most, and when I've been in restaurants I see families there mostly.
I don't see how more taxis prove a hedonistic lifestyle either - all it shows is that there's more competition now. What I'm seeing is that smartphones have changed the nature how people get taxis now - most people I know use an uber because it's convenient.
And now they vote Corbyn to try to get for free what is responsible ones sacrificed for.
In short it's Trump demonstrating to the world what an impotent fuck he really is
Mind you, he might be giggling inanely, swaying and giving the Nazi salute while he said it.
Here it is in crystal clear NUMERICAL format and you still can't see. You are blind.
http://www.britishelectionstudy.com/custom/uploads/2016/07/reasons_categories.png
As to what you do about it I'm not sure. Revolution anyone?
Pubs are included as they are symptomatic of change.
I don't mind the change, but it is a massive change in expectations of entertainment, regularity of entertainment type of entertainment and I suspect the percentage of income spent on entertainment.
it's simply a catch all for a variety of complaints our politicians have sought to ignore and then to to smother out by crying racist
This is good stuff.
That's what we were opting out from.
Time for the Lancaster Bomber.
1970s Soviet joke:
What would happen if they tried Communism in Saudi Arabia?
It would be OK at first, but in a few years they would run short of oil (sometimes 'sand').
I was musing on this today because of course that rather aptly sums up what's happened in Venezuela.
When I was at school I was never told 'everyone's a winner'. This is a message I also see referenced about the education system under New Labour, but as someone who went school during that period I cannot recall that message, or anything implying such being told to us. Instead, the biggest implied message we got is 'YOU MUST GO UNI OR YOU ARE A FAILURE'.
Also, this idea anyone is getting anything 'for free' is bizarre. Most of those voting for him are either students (people that will pay tax in the future), or those who are already tax payers.
And LOL at the idea that no one who is fiscally responsible voted for Corbyn.
http://donnington-brewery.com/our_cotswold_pubs.htm