Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. Sign in or register to get started.

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris has blown it again

SystemSystem Posts: 12,259
edited September 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Boris has blown it again

In the aftermath of the referendum, the job of Prime Minister seemed to be Boris Johnson’s for the taking.  As one of the leaders of the Leave campaign with proven star quality and the intellectual backing of Michael Gove, he looked to be clear on goal.  But from six yards out he skied it over the bar.  Somehow he lost the backing of Michael Gove and he withdrew.

Read the full story here


«134

Comments

  • Totally agree Alastair, as does the primus inter pares of PB Tories, JohnO.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,338
    edited September 2017
    Been on Gove for a while, if George Osborne CH is supporting him then that would be a major split between Osborne and Cameron, and I'm on Team Dave.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    edited September 2017
    While Boris could beat Corbyn, Corbyn would easily beat Gove and I think even Gove knows that now. He would settle for being Chancellor in a Boris Cabinet.

    Boris is continuing to flatter May even while setting out his own stall and is highly unlikely to challenge May before 2019. What he is doing is ensuring May and Davis get too linked to concessions to the EU ie a transition period and a large exit bill which he has now set himself out as opposed to. When May does likely step down in mid 2019 it will then likely be a Boris v Davis contest which Boris will likely win amongst the membership having presented himself as the true Brexiteer
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,763
    Boris' star set some time ago.

    IMO The task of taking the Tory party into opposition looks set to fall to Gove.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679
    Jonathan said:

    Boris' star set some time ago.

    IMO The task of taking the Tory party into opposition looks set to fall to Gove.

    That seems quite likely, and a good choice. He might head of either a UKIP or a Lib Dem revival. But damage limitation is the best they can hope for for a while.
  • Totally agree Alastair, as does the primus inter pares of PB Tories, JohnO.

    Boris was the reason I voted Tory for the first time ever, in 2008.
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,959

    Totally agree Alastair, as does the primus inter pares of PB Tories, JohnO.

    Boris was the reason I voted Tory for the first time ever, in 2008.
    You might not be the best proxy for the British electorate, though.
    :smile:

  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    Agreed on Gove, he's value at 40 even if he ends up as the 'stop Boris' candidate again.


  • Jonathan said:

    Boris' star set some time ago.

    IMO The task of taking the Tory party into opposition looks set to fall to Gove.

    That seems quite likely, and a good choice. He might head of either a UKIP or a Lib Dem revival. But damage limitation is the best they can hope for for a while.
    The next election will be determined by the Brexit deal or no deal and the economy at the time. It is understandable that some think Corbyn is nailed on but in today's politics no one can be certain of anything other than a hope that their side comes through
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262
    Look out for any reaction against May after her Florence speech.
  • I agree and checked out the Betfair prices on the Next PM and Next Conservative leader markets over night after David Herdson made a similar point last night. If Boris is going to bring May down earlier than March '19 then the value is on Brexiteers hard enough to put in the final two to Tory members who *aren't* Boris. If Tory MP's are to justify excluding Boris from the final two ( because he's a **** ) they'll need cover. My guess is a Heavy Weight LEAVER ( Gove or Davis ) Vs Clean Hands Leaver ( say Raab or Patel ) dynamic will set in. The value is concurrently with Gove and Tory MPs we've never heard off.
  • Allan said:

    Look out for any reaction against May after her Florence speech.

    Or for
  • Boris is in no rush. He knows that Theresa will be destroyed by the Brexit fallout at the next GE, but also that the incoming Labour government will inherit much of it. He just has to install himself as the next opposition leader after Jezza and he will become the next PM after Jezza. It's a simple equation.
  • Boris is in no rush. He knows that Theresa will be destroyed by the Brexit fallout at the next GE, but also that the incoming Labour government will inherit much of it. He just has to install himself as the next opposition leader after Jezza and he will become the next PM after Jezza. It's a simple equation.

    Lot of assumptions there
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited September 2017
    AlastairMeeks tips are usually good, but I cannot see the path for Gove, and I think that even if he makes a final two, he would lose.

    Boris isaclown, but is at least a clown with charisma.
  • Good.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637

    AlastairMeeks tips are usually good, but I cannot see the path for Gove, and I think that even if he makes a final two, he would lose.

    Boris isaclown, but is at least a clown with charisma.

    Even Jacob Rees Mogg would be more electable than Gove
  • @foxinsoxuk Backing someone at 40 isn't necessarily about thinking that'll win. It may be merely that soon they'll be 5 or 10 and can be traded.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    The next leader ought be John Redwood.
  • Public Service Announcement: no one actually likes Michael-Effing-Gove! He'd lead the Tories into a decade of opposition - they'd have to be insane to install him.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    edited September 2017



    Jonathan said:

    Boris' star set some time ago.

    IMO The task of taking the Tory party into opposition looks set to fall to Gove.

    That seems quite likely, and a good choice. He might head of either a UKIP or a Lib Dem revival. But damage limitation is the best they can hope for for a while.
    Not while Corbyn is Labour leader it isn't, even last week the Tories and Labour were tied, there are a number of voters who will vote Tory while Corbyn is Labour leader regardless but might vote for a more moderate Labour leader
  • Boris is in no rush. He knows that Theresa will be destroyed by the Brexit fallout at the next GE, but also that the incoming Labour government will inherit much of it. He just has to install himself as the next opposition leader after Jezza and he will become the next PM after Jezza. It's a simple equation.

    Lot of assumptions there
    Theresa's staying on has been an absolute gift to Boris. Had she quit Boris would have had to either stand as leader and absorb all the post-Brexit toxicity or refuse to stand and be tainted forever as a coward like Portillo. This way he gets to have his cake and eat it.
  • Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Perhaps Reedwood and Rees-Mogg on a dream ticket? The Tory Right would feel all their birthdays had come at once.
  • Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Are you being serious?

    The time for Redwood was about 20 years ago.
  • Boris is in no rush. He knows that Theresa will be destroyed by the Brexit fallout at the next GE, but also that the incoming Labour government will inherit much of it. He just has to install himself as the next opposition leader after Jezza and he will become the next PM after Jezza. It's a simple equation.

    Lot of assumptions there
    Theresa's staying on has been an absolute gift to Boris. Had she quit Boris would have had to either stand as leader and absorb all the post-Brexit toxicity or refuse to stand and be tainted forever as a coward like Portillo. This way he gets to have his cake and eat it.
    You assume post Brexit toxicity and you may be right but equally you may be wrong - who knows how the Country will feel in March 2019 - lot of water to flow under the bridge even if 'tempus fugit'
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    Way off topic, but watching the F1 cars qualifying under the lights at the Singapore street circuit is awesome. They need more paint for the wall on the second to last corner!
  • Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Are you being serious?

    The time for Redwood was about 20 years ago.
    Put up or shut up :lol:
  • This isn't House of Cards. We needn't let a pound shop Frank Underwood like Boris destroy the governments of two consecutive Prime Ministers so he can inherit the Crown without an election. Followed by a false flag WTO Brexit where he tries to get a majority amidst the ensuing chaos by running on a jingoistic platform as yet unseen.

    It's time for Conservative MPs to do what they exist for and seem to have given up on. To act conservatively. To restore order and approach Brexit as a serious and long term socioeconomic project. Not an ink blot for ***** like Boris to project their Id onto.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    edited September 2017

    Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Are you being serious?

    The time for Redwood was about 20 years ago.
    What Sean Fear means is that Redwood should be the stalking horse for Edward Leigh or Andrew Rosindell.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    The problem for the Tories is that the cabinet is a rogues gallery of unelectables. Choosing Gove as leader would be suicidal. Not only have his ideas and approach made him deeply unpopular with millions of voters, but he has the misfortune of having a face and image which makes him the Mr Bean of British politics. Boris Johnson is a buffoon. Rees Mogg is a cartoon patrician aristocrat, David Davis is a weary old approaching septuanarian, and Amber Rudd is a strident martinet whose name sounds like a traffic light changing colour.

    All of them would lead to a minority Corbyn government. The Tories need to look to that Unknown backbencher who will save the Tory party from this bunch of grotesques.
  • This isn't House of Cards. We needn't let a pound shop Frank Underwood like Boris destroy the governments of two consecutive Prime Ministers so he can inherit the Crown without an election. Followed by a false flag WTO Brexit where he tries to get a majority amidst the ensuing chaos by running on a jingoistic platform as yet unseen.

    It's time for Conservative MPs to do what they exist for and seem to have given up on. To act conservatively. To restore order and approach Brexit as a serious and long term socioeconomic project. Not an ink blot for ***** like Boris to project their Id onto.

    Maybe in all this May will prove to be the serious politician
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2017
    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Perhaps Reedwood and Rees-Mogg on a dream ticket? The Tory Right would feel all their birthdays had come at once.
    John Redwood as Tory leader would have the Labour Party doing the Conga up and down the land-and rightly so.
  • stevef said:

    The problem for the Tories is that the cabinet is a rogues gallery of unelectables. Choosing Gove as leader would be suicidal. Not only have his ideas and approach made him deeply unpopular with millions of voters, but he has the misfortune of having a face and image which makes him the Mr Bean of British politics. Boris Johnson is a buffoon. Rees Mogg is a cartoon patrician aristocrat, David Davis is a weary old approaching septuanarian, and Amber Rudd is a strident martinet whose name sounds like a traffic light changing colour.

    All of them would lead to a minority Corbyn government. The Tories need to look to that Unknown backbencher who will save the Tory party from this bunch of grotesques.

    What a deeply unpleasant post. So an MP is automatically ruled out as they have a name you don't approve of? That's pathetic.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    I am sure even the Conservative Party will choose a human.
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295
    stevef said:

    The problem for the Tories is that the cabinet is a rogues gallery of unelectables. Choosing Gove as leader would be suicidal. Not only have his ideas and approach made him deeply unpopular with millions of voters, but he has the misfortune of having a face and image which makes him the Mr Bean of British politics. Boris Johnson is a buffoon. Rees Mogg is a cartoon patrician aristocrat, David Davis is a weary old approaching septuanarian, and Amber Rudd is a strident martinet whose name sounds like a traffic light changing colour.

    All of them would lead to a minority Corbyn government. The Tories need to look to that Unknown backbencher who will save the Tory party from this bunch of grotesques.

    No, there are a number of very capable Ministers of State, who promoted to Cabinet and given a higher profile, would be well-suited as PM and re-election in 2022.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    edited September 2017
    Following on from Alastair's piece. At the time I said that Gove was doing what he had to do for the good of the country and I still believe that. He believed leaving the EU was in the best interests of Britain but he also believed just as strongly that Boris would be a disaster as PM. I still believe his actions during and after the referendum were based on those two basic principles and we should be grateful to him for putting his reputation on the line to ensure both that the referendum was won and equally that Boris did not become PM.
  • JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Are you being serious?

    The time for Redwood was about 20 years ago.
    What Sean Fear means is that Redwood should be the stalking horse for Edward Leigh or Andrew Rosindell.
    The current rules remove stalking horses don't they?
  • JohnOJohnO Posts: 4,295

    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Are you being serious?

    The time for Redwood was about 20 years ago.
    What Sean Fear means is that Redwood should be the stalking horse for Edward Leigh or Andrew Rosindell.
    The current rules remove stalking horses don't they?
    I'm kidding as was Sean F.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    JohnO said:

    Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Are you being serious?

    The time for Redwood was about 20 years ago.
    What Sean Fear means is that Redwood should be the stalking horse for Edward Leigh or Andrew Rosindell.
    The House of Commons bar will be asked to open for breakfast.
  • Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Are you being serious?

    The time for Redwood was about 20 years ago.
    The strange thing is that the party and the country would have been better off if he'd won back then. The boil wasn't lanced.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=37tS9ZYG7zU
  • Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    Don't under 70s qualify as Young Conservatives?
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    AlastairMeeks tips are usually good, but I cannot see the path for Gove, and I think that even if he makes a final two, he would lose.

    Boris isaclown, but is at least a clown with charisma.

    Gove will not be elected. But 40/1 is ridiculous - so agreed it is good odds.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    5th terrorist act this year. 6 months back we were congratulating ourselves that Britain had not been attacked.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    stevef said:

    The problem for the Tories is that the cabinet is a rogues gallery of unelectables. Choosing Gove as leader would be suicidal. Not only have his ideas and approach made him deeply unpopular with millions of voters, but he has the misfortune of having a face and image which makes him the Mr Bean of British politics. Boris Johnson is a buffoon. Rees Mogg is a cartoon patrician aristocrat, David Davis is a weary old approaching septuanarian, and Amber Rudd is a strident martinet whose name sounds like a traffic light changing colour.

    All of them would lead to a minority Corbyn government. The Tories need to look to that Unknown backbencher who will save the Tory party from this bunch of grotesques.

    What a deeply unpleasant post. So an MP is automatically ruled out as they have a name you don't approve of? That's pathetic.
    Not unpleasant but realistic. If you had bothered to read my post carefully and with thought, you would have seen that my main criticism of her is that she is strident. She has a tendency to shout at everybody. She comes across badly. But it will not help her at all if she became a laughing stock because of a silly name. Image and perception are important in politics, as (hopefully) you know.
  • Following on from Alastair's piece. At the time I said that Gove was doing what he had to do for the good of the country and I still believe that. He believed leaving the EU was in the best interests of Britain but he also believed just as strongly that Boris would be a disaster as PM. I still believe his actions during and after the referendum were based on those two basic principles and we should be grateful to him for putting his reputation on the line to ensure both that the referendum was won and equally that Boris did not become PM.

    Hindsight is 20/20 but I don't see now how Boris would have been worse than May.

    It would have been good for the country too to have a Vote Leave leader become PM so the whole "that was Vote Leave's promise not ours" argument couldn't be made.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520

    This isn't House of Cards. We needn't let a pound shop Frank Underwood like Boris destroy the governments of two consecutive Prime Ministers so he can inherit the Crown without an election. Followed by a false flag WTO Brexit where he tries to get a majority amidst the ensuing chaos by running on a jingoistic platform as yet unseen.

    It's time for Conservative MPs to do what they exist for and seem to have given up on. To act conservatively. To restore order and approach Brexit as a serious and long term socioeconomic project. Not an ink blot for ***** like Boris to project their Id onto.

    Maybe in all this May will prove to be the serious politician
    She's certainly much more serious than anyone who's currently trying to position themselves. - which is why she'll stay in the job for another couple of years.
  • Completely OT, since SeanT has not been giving us updates on his travels lately, may I just make a very strong recommendation for one of the finest restaurants I have ever had the pleasure of frequenting. My wife and I are currently in Budapest for the weekend and last night went in search of a restaurant serving local cuisine rather than tourist food. We came upon the Karpatia Restaurant on Ferenciek Tere in Pest.

    The restaurant dates to 1877 and the décor is Empire period with some interwar updates. It is a stunning setting for stunning food. The choice was wide, all classic local dishes and cooked to perfection. The wine choice was superb and the whole thing was accompanied by violin and guitar music to make a perfect setting.

    I cannot recommend this place strongly enough and if you are ever in Budapest (which is a lovely city well worth visiting) you really should give it a try,
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    edited September 2017
    stevef said:

    The problem for the Tories is that the cabinet is a rogues gallery of unelectables. Choosing Gove as leader would be suicidal. Not only have his ideas and approach made him deeply unpopular with millions of voters, but he has the misfortune of having a face and image which makes him the Mr Bean of British politics. Boris Johnson is a buffoon. Rees Mogg is a cartoon patrician aristocrat, David Davis is a weary old approaching septuanarian, and Amber Rudd is a strident martinet whose name sounds like a traffic light changing colour.

    All of them would lead to a minority Corbyn government. The Tories need to look to that Unknown backbencher who will save the Tory party from this bunch of grotesques.

    I don't see why Boris can't beat Corbyn, Corbyn still has a big negative vote himself and while Corbyn was more charismatic than May and indeed Davis, Rudd and Hammond and Gove, Boris is more charismatic than Corbyn. Although in some respects a Corbyn minority government would be ideal for Boris, even better than taking over in government, as PM Corbyn would have to deal with the consequences of Brexit and his disastrous economic policies while having no majority while Boris as LOTO can do what he is best at and promise cake for all!
  • surbiton said:

    AlastairMeeks tips are usually good, but I cannot see the path for Gove, and I think that even if he makes a final two, he would lose.

    Boris isaclown, but is at least a clown with charisma.

    Gove will not be elected. But 40/1 is ridiculous - so agreed it is good odds.
    For all that I admire him a great deal I do not se Gove ever becoming PM either. He is certainly a marmite politician and I would suggest those who really like him are well outnumbered by those who cannot stand him. Unfortunate but one has to be realistic.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    JohnO said:

    stevef said:

    The problem for the Tories is that the cabinet is a rogues gallery of unelectables. Choosing Gove as leader would be suicidal. Not only have his ideas and approach made him deeply unpopular with millions of voters, but he has the misfortune of having a face and image which makes him the Mr Bean of British politics. Boris Johnson is a buffoon. Rees Mogg is a cartoon patrician aristocrat, David Davis is a weary old approaching septuanarian, and Amber Rudd is a strident martinet whose name sounds like a traffic light changing colour.

    All of them would lead to a minority Corbyn government. The Tories need to look to that Unknown backbencher who will save the Tory party from this bunch of grotesques.

    No, there are a number of very capable Ministers of State, who promoted to Cabinet and given a higher profile, would be well-suited as PM and re-election in 2022.
    Can you name some of them.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    I find it astonishing that anyone would entertain the idea that a man with an image problem as bad as this man would be the electoral saviour of the Tory party
    https://wisegrumpyowl.files.wordpress.com/2014/06/original_political-pants-for-men-mr-gove.jpg
  • Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    Don't under 70s qualify as Young Conservatives?
    Being a leap year baby I am only 18 and a half
  • Good afternoon, everyone.

    Persuaded of this, at least as a trading bet. And unlikelier things have happened.

    F1: a grid to tilt the title? Perhaps.
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044
    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    The problem for the Tories is that the cabinet is a rogues gallery of unelectables. Choosing Gove as leader would be suicidal. Not only have his ideas and approach made him deeply unpopular with millions of voters, but he has the misfortune of having a face and image which makes him the Mr Bean of British politics. Boris Johnson is a buffoon. Rees Mogg is a cartoon patrician aristocrat, David Davis is a weary old approaching septuanarian, and Amber Rudd is a strident martinet whose name sounds like a traffic light changing colour.

    All of them would lead to a minority Corbyn government. The Tories need to look to that Unknown backbencher who will save the Tory party from this bunch of grotesques.

    I don't see why Boris can't beat Corbyn, Corbyn still has a big negative vote himself and while Corbyn was more charismatic than May and indeed Davis, Rudd and Hammond and Gove, Boris is more charismatic than Corbyn. Although in some respects a Corbyn minority government would be ideal for Boris, even better than taking over in government, as PM Corbyn would have to deal with the consequences of Brexit and his disastrous economic policies while having no majority while Boris as LOTO can do what he is best at and promise cake for all!
    As Boris would tell you -since he has written a book about him, and unconsciously models himself on his image, Churchill was more charismatic than Attlee-and look what happened in 1945. Johnson would lose against Corbyn for a number of reasons: 1). Johnson is very bad in TV debates and Corbyn's technique of taking moral high ground in such debates, would leave Johnson floundering like a beached whale. 2). Johnson is loathed above all other Tory politicians by Remain voters who would flood to Corbyn to stop him. A Johnson premiership would be a disaster for the Tory party.
  • Wow. Just seen this. James Kirkup is scathing.

    I was wrong about the real Boris and his real principles. Look at him now. Look today at Boris Johnson, who once proclaimed himself a liberal Tory, and consider how far ambition and the referendum have warped him. Having cast his lot in with the Leavers, he appears to think his only play now is to double down on the worst of Leave’s politics and question the patriotism of those who take a different view.

    ‘I am troubled with the thought that people are beginning to have genuinely split allegiances,’

    Mr Johnson writes of ‘young people’ protesting the decision to leave the EU, adding:

    ‘A transnational sense of allegiance can weaken the ties between us.’

    This isn’t nice. This isn’t funny. This isn’t cuddly or amusing or bumbling. This isn’t even excusable by the fact that Boris is utterly selfish and his principles fluidly subordinate to his career.


    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/boriss-nasty-politics-would-hurt-the-tories-and-britain/
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    edited September 2017
    In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May
  • stevefstevef Posts: 1,044

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    Don't under 70s qualify as Young Conservatives?
    But the electorate as a whole has never been so old before. And Corbyn will be the oldest party leader in 2022 since 1951.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520

    Good afternoon, everyone.

    Persuaded of this, at least as a trading bet. And unlikelier things have happened.

    F1: a grid to tilt the title? Perhaps.

    Pleased I laid off the Hamilton bet in the middle of that session!
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Ken Clarke.
  • Sean_F said:

    The next leader ought be John Redwood.

    Redwood isn't the answer.
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited September 2017

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    Don't under 70s qualify as Young Conservatives?
    I don't think they have a Young Conservatives anymore. They got a bit too rowdy and demanding the last time and had to be shut down.

    The basic problem that the rightwing pensioners party have is - whenever they reopen their youth wing, it only ends up attracting a pile of tw@ts and freeriders.

    ie, the under 65's.
  • After Hurricane Katrina the radical left wing writer Naomi Klein coined the phrase " Disaster Capitalism ". The UK now seems to be teetering on the brink of Disaster Politics. First #indyref then #euref but now... Nora is openly flirting in his Telegraph piece with toppling another PM mid term and staging a false flag chaotic WTO Brexit. Simply so he can become PM.

    In fairness the long term trend in British politics, the shift from making voters lives better to making another group of voters lives worse, began rhetorically under Thatcher and as deliberate policy under Blair. But all that was still politics as normal. Winning elections to govern a United Kingdom.

    Are we now in a completely separate era where none of that works anymore so we have political projects to blow up the pillars of the building so folk can play rescuer when the roof comes down. If so where does it all end ? And what happens if we go to far ? We're an old and stable country but even so we only have so much institutional capital and we are spending it far faster than we are generating new stuff.

    The other disturbing possibility is this is where the Corbyn surge came from. I'm on an intellectual journey on this myself. But we may not be very far away from the tiny rump of centrist liberals like myself concluding that the country deserves to have a Corbyn government inflicted on it.

    Firstly it appears to be what the country wants and deserves. If we must rerun the 1970's we might as well do it properly. Secondly we can't stand idly by if the Tories really have changed the game.

    If we are in the age of Disaster Politics why should the Right be the only ones who get to stage Disasters. And Corbyn/Corbynism is the only UK wide weapon conservatives have at the moment.
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Ken Clarke.
    Bless him - very fond of Ken and in some ways I agree but unfortunately he is a bit too pro EU for the vast majority of conservatives
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Probably not. But you regard this as a good thing?
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Mary Berry?
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Probably not. But you regard this as a good thing?
    It would be ironic if she does provide stability through these difficult times and I cannot see any present politician who would do any better in the short term
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    stevef said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    The problem for the Tories is that the cabinet is a rogues gallery of unelectables. Choosing Gove as leader would be suicidal. Not only have his ideas and approach made him deeply unpopular with millions of voters, but he has the misfortune of having a face and image which makes him the Mr Bean of British politics. Boris Johnson is a buffoon. Rees Mogg is a cartoon patrician aristocrat, David Davis is a weary old approaching septuanarian, and Amber Rudd is a strident martinet whose name sounds like a traffic light changing colour.

    All of them would lead to a minority Corbyn government. The Tories need to look to that Unknown backbencher who will save the Tory party from this bunch of grotesques.

    I don't see why Boris can't beat Corbyn, Corbyn still has a big negative vote himself and while Corbyn was more charismatic than May and indeed Davis, Rudd and Hammond and Gove, Boris is more charismatic than Corbyn. Although in some respects a Corbyn minority government would be ideal for Boris, even better than taking over in government, as PM Corbyn would have to deal with the consequences of Brexit and his disastrous economic policies while having no majority while Boris as LOTO can do what he is best at and promise cake for all!
    As Boris would tell you -since he has written a book about him, and unconsciously models himself on his image, Churchill was more charismatic than Attlee-and look what happened in 1945. Johnson would lose against Corbyn for a number of reasons: 1). Johnson is very bad in TV debates and Corbyn's technique of taking moral high ground in such debates, would leave Johnson floundering like a beached whale. 2). Johnson is loathed above all other Tory politicians by Remain voters who would flood to Corbyn to stop him. A Johnson premiership would be a disaster for the Tory party.
    In 1945 we had no NHS, no welfare state and Churchill would have trounced Attlee in 1940 had their been an election on WW2 leadership much as Boris would trounce Corbyn on Brexit leadership and of course did eventually beat him in 1951. Corbyn is also not fit to lick Attlee's bootstraps, Attlee of course believed in balanced budgets, the nuclear deterrent and our armed forces unlike Corbyn.


    Johnson did fine in TV debates against Livingstone and beat him. Johnson is loved by the 52% who voted Leave so he can afford to be loathed by the 48% who voted Remain and who despite flocking to Corbyn last time still lost to May.

  • After Hurricane Katrina the radical left wing writer Naomi Klein coined the phrase " Disaster Capitalism ". The UK now seems to be teetering on the brink of Disaster Politics. First #indyref then #euref but now... Nora is openly flirting in his Telegraph piece with toppling another PM mid term and staging a false flag chaotic WTO Brexit. Simply so he can become PM.

    In fairness the long term trend in British politics, the shift from making voters lives better to making another group of voters lives worse, began rhetorically under Thatcher and as deliberate policy under Blair. But all that was still politics as normal. Winning elections to govern a United Kingdom.

    Are we now in a completely separate era where none of that works anymore so we have political projects to blow up the pillars of the building so folk can play rescuer when the roof comes down. If so where does it all end ? And what happens if we go to far ? We're an old and stable country but even so we only have so much institutional capital and we are spending it far faster than we are generating new stuff.

    The other disturbing possibility is this is where the Corbyn surge came from. I'm on an intellectual journey on this myself. But we may not be very far away from the tiny rump of centrist liberals like myself concluding that the country deserves to have a Corbyn government inflicted on it.

    Firstly it appears to be what the country wants and deserves. If we must rerun the 1970's we might as well do it properly. Secondly we can't stand idly by if the Tories really have changed the game.

    If we are in the age of Disaster Politics why should the Right be the only ones who get to stage Disasters. And Corbyn/Corbynism is the only UK wide weapon conservatives have at the moment.

    A stunning combination of whining and sour grapes.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722

    After Hurricane Katrina the radical left wing writer Naomi Klein coined the phrase " Disaster Capitalism ". The UK now seems to be teetering on the brink of Disaster Politics. First #indyref then #euref but now... Nora is openly flirting in his Telegraph piece with toppling another PM mid term and staging a false flag chaotic WTO Brexit. Simply so he can become PM.

    In fairness the long term trend in British politics, the shift from making voters lives better to making another group of voters lives worse, began rhetorically under Thatcher and as deliberate policy under Blair. But all that was still politics as normal. Winning elections to govern a United Kingdom.

    Are we now in a completely separate era where none of that works anymore so we have political projects to blow up the pillars of the building so folk can play rescuer when the roof comes down. If so where does it all end ? And what happens if we go to far ? We're an old and stable country but even so we only have so much institutional capital and we are spending it far faster than we are generating new stuff.

    The other disturbing possibility is this is where the Corbyn surge came from. I'm on an intellectual journey on this myself. But we may not be very far away from the tiny rump of centrist liberals like myself concluding that the country deserves to have a Corbyn government inflicted on it.

    Firstly it appears to be what the country wants and deserves. If we must rerun the 1970's we might as well do it properly. Secondly we can't stand idly by if the Tories really have changed the game.

    If we are in the age of Disaster Politics why should the Right be the only ones who get to stage Disasters. And Corbyn/Corbynism is the only UK wide weapon conservatives have at the moment.

    Our problems are First World Problems.

    We're a long way from Disaster Politics.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
    There was a recent Yougov survey of 1,000 members, which put the average age at 57. That's more likely. Middle aged Conservatives are very happy about Brexit.

  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Mary Berry?
    Perhaps she's the only one who could convince the party it can't have its cake and eat it.
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Ken Clarke.
    David Cameron
  • Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
    Or the overwhelming majority of voters are not members of any political party - assume even with Corbyn's members the total of members belonging to political parties does not exceed one million out of 65 million. Also the next GE will be a social media event as much as door knocking
  • Mr. Sandpit, quite. Would've preferred a Red Bull front row for my bets, but for the title, the grid is pretty tasty.
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Ken Clarke.
    David Cameron
    Has to be a MP
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Mary Berry?
    Perhaps she's the only one who could convince the party it can't have its cake and eat it.
    Another good quip William, fair play
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Probably not. But you regard this as a good thing?
    It would be ironic if she does provide stability through these difficult times and I cannot see any present politician who would do any better in the short term
    Yes. Pre-Brexit is looking so bad that all Theresa's colleagues want her to remain as leader, otherwise one of them might have to step up and do it - a truly terrifying prospect for all of them. In this sense, Theresa is presiding over the most stable government in living memory.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,637
    edited September 2017

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
    There are still plenty of under 40 Tory members including myself who canvass and leaflet and even elderly members help out with telling, displaying posters etc
  • In these last few threads can anyone suggest a better leader for the conservative party over the next 24 - 30 months than Theresa May

    Probably not. But you regard this as a good thing?
    It would be ironic if she does provide stability through these difficult times and I cannot see any present politician who would do any better in the short term
    Yes. Pre-Brexit is looking so bad that all Theresa's colleagues want her to remain as leader, otherwise one of them might have to step up and do it - a truly terrifying prospect for all of them. In this sense, Theresa is presiding over the most stable government in living memory.
    Not sure about that but it is difficult to see how it will not take us through Brexit and beyond
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
    There are still plenty of under 40 Tory members including myself and even elderly members help out with telling, displaying posters etc
    Plenty of non-members help out, too.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    edited September 2017

    Mr. Sandpit, quite. Would've preferred a Red Bull front row for my bets, but for the title, the grid is pretty tasty.

    Should be an incident packed race, if a little processional as street circuits tend to be. Expect most overtaking to be done in the pits. Don’t bet against the safety car, the record is 9 from 9 races!
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    edited September 2017
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
    There are still plenty of under 40 Tory members including myself and even elderly members help out with telling, displaying posters etc
    Plenty of non-members help out, too.
    I even drove the late Wyn Roberts throughout the 1979, 1983 and 1987 campaigns without being a member ( and he won them all). Indeed I did the same for David Jones in the 2010 campaign and we won that as well
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    edited September 2017

    After Hurricane Katrina the radical left wing writer Naomi Klein coined the phrase " Disaster Capitalism ". The UK now seems to be teetering on the brink of Disaster Politics. First #indyref then #euref but now... Nora is openly flirting in his Telegraph piece with toppling another PM mid term and staging a false flag chaotic WTO Brexit. Simply so he can become PM.

    In fairness the long term trend in British politics, the shift from making voters lives better to making another group of voters lives worse, began rhetorically under Thatcher and as deliberate policy under Blair. But all that was still politics as normal. Winning elections to govern a United Kingdom.

    Are we now in a completely separate era where none of that works anymore so we have political projects to blow up the pillars of the building so folk can play rescuer when the roof comes down. If so where does it all end ? And what happens if we go to far ? We're an old and stable country but even so we only have so much institutional capital and we are spending it far faster than we are generating new stuff.

    The other disturbing possibility is this is where the Corbyn surge came from. I'm on an intellectual journey on this myself. But we may not be very far away from the tiny rump of centrist liberals like myself concluding that the country deserves to have a Corbyn government inflicted on it.

    Firstly it appears to be what the country wants and deserves. If we must rerun the 1970's we might as well do it properly. Secondly we can't stand idly by if the Tories really have changed the game.

    If we are in the age of Disaster Politics why should the Right be the only ones who get to stage Disasters. And Corbyn/Corbynism is the only UK wide weapon conservatives have at the moment.

    A stunning combination of whining and sour grapes.
    Most of the world (including some high income countries) would be very happy to have our problems. It's easy to conclude that everything is going to hell in a handcart when the other side wins a vote, but it's also wrong.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,084
    edited September 2017
    Sean_F said:

    After Hurricane Katrina the radical left wing writer Naomi Klein coined the phrase " Disaster Capitalism ". The UK now seems to be teetering on the brink of Disaster Politics. First #indyref then #euref but now... Nora is openly flirting in his Telegraph piece with toppling another PM mid term and staging a false flag chaotic WTO Brexit. Simply so he can become PM.

    In fairness the long term trend in British politics, the shift from making voters lives better to making another group of voters lives worse, began rhetorically under Thatcher and as deliberate policy under Blair. But all that was still politics as normal. Winning elections to govern a United Kingdom.

    Are we now in a completely separate era where none of that works anymore so we have political projects to blow up the pillars of the building so folk can play rescuer when the roof comes down. If so where does it all end ? And what happens if we go to far ? We're an old and stable country but even so we only have so much institutional capital and we are spending it far faster than we are generating new stuff.

    The other disturbing possibility is this is where the Corbyn surge came from. I'm on an intellectual journey on this myself. But we may not be very far away from the tiny rump of centrist liberals like myself concluding that the country deserves to have a Corbyn government inflicted on it.

    Firstly it appears to be what the country wants and deserves. If we must rerun the 1970's we might as well do it properly. Secondly we can't stand idly by if the Tories really have changed the game.

    If we are in the age of Disaster Politics why should the Right be the only ones who get to stage Disasters. And Corbyn/Corbynism is the only UK wide weapon conservatives have at the moment.

    A stunning combination of whining and sour grapes.
    Most of the world (including some high income countries) would be very happy to have our problems. It's easy to conclude that everything is going to hell in a handcart when the other side wins a vote, but it's also wrong.
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262
    edited September 2017

    Wow. Just seen this. James Kirkup is scathing.
    I was wrong about the real Boris and his real principles. Look at him now. Look today at Boris Johnson, who once proclaimed himself a liberal Tory, and consider how far ambition and the referendum have warped him. Having cast his lot in with the Leavers, he appears to think his only play now is to double down on the worst of Leave’s politics and question the patriotism of those who take a different view.
    ‘I am troubled with the thought that people are beginning to have genuinely split allegiances,’
    Mr Johnson writes of ‘young people’ protesting the decision to leave the EU, adding:
    ‘A transnational sense of allegiance can weaken the ties between us.’
    This isn’t nice. This isn’t funny. This isn’t cuddly or amusing or bumbling. This isn’t even excusable by the fact that Boris is utterly selfish and his principles fluidly subordinate to his career.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/boriss-nasty-politics-would-hurt-the-tories-and-britain/

    Kirkup only states (now) that he has never been a Conservative. When a journalist he implied that he was one.
  • MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,730
    FPT: Not sure if it was discussed earlier but the previous thread article is wrong.

    The deal with the DUP is not £1bn per year for 2 years = £2bn total.

    It's £1bn total - most is spread over 2 years though a small amount is spread over 5 years.

    The cost in year 1 is approx £450m. It's the same amount in year 2 and then the small remaining balance is spread over years 3 to 5.
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
    Or the overwhelming majority of voters are not members of any political party - assume even with Corbyn's members the total of members belonging to political parties does not exceed one million out of 65 million. Also the next GE will be a social media event as much as door knocking
    After the resignation of Cameron there was a large increase in the membership of former members most of whom are over 65 years old, so no surprise if the average age had increased.
  • @Sean_F So pre Brexit Britain was a dystopian hell and we needed to take back control. Post Brexit now the plebs have served their purpose they should shut up and compare themselves favourably with The Niger.

    Unfortunately that's note how mobs work Sean. As you are well aware.
  • Allan said:

    Wow. Just seen this. James Kirkup is scathing.
    I was wrong about the real Boris and his real principles. Look at him now. Look today at Boris Johnson, who once proclaimed himself a liberal Tory, and consider how far ambition and the referendum have warped him. Having cast his lot in with the Leavers, he appears to think his only play now is to double down on the worst of Leave’s politics and question the patriotism of those who take a different view.
    ‘I am troubled with the thought that people are beginning to have genuinely split allegiances,’
    Mr Johnson writes of ‘young people’ protesting the decision to leave the EU, adding:
    ‘A transnational sense of allegiance can weaken the ties between us.’
    This isn’t nice. This isn’t funny. This isn’t cuddly or amusing or bumbling. This isn’t even excusable by the fact that Boris is utterly selfish and his principles fluidly subordinate to his career.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/boriss-nasty-politics-would-hurt-the-tories-and-britain/

    Kirkup only states (now) that he has never been a Conservative. When a journalist he implied that he was one.
    Wasn't he with the Telegraph at one time
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722

    @Sean_F So pre Brexit Britain was a dystopian hell and we needed to take back control. Post Brexit now the plebs have served their purpose they should shut up and compare themselves favourably with The Niger.

    Unfortunately that's note how mobs work Sean. As you are well aware.

    Pre-Brexit Britain was not a dystopia. Nor will Brexit Britain be one.
  • Allan said:

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
    Or the overwhelming majority of voters are not members of any political party - assume even with Corbyn's members the total of members belonging to political parties does not exceed one million out of 65 million. Also the next GE will be a social media event as much as door knocking
    After the resignation of Cameron there was a large increase in the membership of former members most of whom are over 65 years old, so no surprise if the average age had increased.
    Sounds right - didn't many resign over gay marriage?
  • @Richard_Tyndall How is our copper bottomed legal right to maintain EEA membership going ? The copper bottomed right you spent 10 years post on here we had ? Typical Dr Frankenstein moaning now the Brexit monster he created is behaving badly.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    Offtopic, but the CIO and CSO of Equifax have both “left the company”. It turns out the hackers used an exploit that had been known about for five months before they patched their systems. File under “You had one job to do!!”
    https://m.slashdot.org/story/331313
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262

    Allan said:

    Pong said:

    "Average age of Conservative member is now 72, up six years on 2015."

    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/908770085837447170
    The Conservative party has always been old, but it's never been this old before.

    This is the electorate who will choose who succeeds TM.

    72 year olds.

    For the average Tory to be six years older than they were 2 years ago, either youngest Tories are leaving in droves (Remainers?) or very elderly to be joining (Leavers?). My money is on the former.

    It is going to be a real problem getting ground troops out next GE.
    Or the overwhelming majority of voters are not members of any political party - assume even with Corbyn's members the total of members belonging to political parties does not exceed one million out of 65 million. Also the next GE will be a social media event as much as door knocking
    After the resignation of Cameron there was a large increase in the membership of former members most of whom are over 65 years old, so no surprise if the average age had increased.
    Sounds right - didn't many resign over gay marriage?
    A very long list of Cameron/Osborne's anti Conservative policies which included: no referendum before 2015 GE, Osborne's omnishambles budgets, grammar schools, etc etc
  • @Sean_F So pre Brexit Britain was a dystopian hell and we needed to take back control. Post Brexit now the plebs have served their purpose they should shut up and compare themselves favourably with The Niger.

    Unfortunately that's note how mobs work Sean. As you are well aware.

    You have a very twisted view of the world.
  • AllanAllan Posts: 262

    Allan said:

    Wow. Just seen this. James Kirkup is scathing.
    I was wrong about the real Boris and his real principles. Look at him now. Look today at Boris Johnson, who once proclaimed himself a liberal Tory, and consider how far ambition and the referendum have warped him. Having cast his lot in with the Leavers, he appears to think his only play now is to double down on the worst of Leave’s politics and question the patriotism of those who take a different view.
    ‘I am troubled with the thought that people are beginning to have genuinely split allegiances,’
    Mr Johnson writes of ‘young people’ protesting the decision to leave the EU, adding:
    ‘A transnational sense of allegiance can weaken the ties between us.’
    This isn’t nice. This isn’t funny. This isn’t cuddly or amusing or bumbling. This isn’t even excusable by the fact that Boris is utterly selfish and his principles fluidly subordinate to his career.

    https://blogs.spectator.co.uk/2017/09/boriss-nasty-politics-would-hurt-the-tories-and-britain/

    Kirkup only states (now) that he has never been a Conservative. When a journalist he implied that he was one.
    Wasn't he with the Telegraph at one time
    Yes, clearly a centrist sleeper.
This discussion has been closed.