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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Lord Adonis guide to predicting elections: Best leader win

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    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    As bad as the Equifax 'hack' might be, it's nowhere near as bad as the stuff Mylan have been getting up to with Epipen. Firstly there were the massive price hikes, and then this:

    "FDA slams EpiPen maker for doing nothing while hundreds failed, people died
    In damning letter, agency says maker didn’t fix violations or recall bad batches."

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/fda-slams-epipen-maker-for-doing-nothing-while-hundreds-failed-people-died/

    "Mylan had maintained about a 90% market share since it had acquired the product, and had continually raised the price of EpiPens starting in 2009: in 2009, the wholesale price of two EpiPens was about $100; by July 2013, the price was about $265; in May 2015, it was around $461; and in May 2016, the price rose again to around $609,[25] around a 500% jump from the price in 2009.[75] The cost of the drug and device to Mylan as of 2016 was about $35"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epinephrine_autoinjector

    Declaration of interest: Mylan paid me a lot of money to help them buy Epipen from E Merck Darmstadt.
    And your point is?
    Because you are being unfair to Mylan but it's important to be transparent that I like Heather.
    I have quoted sources. In what way am I being 'unfair' ?
    As bad as equifax might be ... "it is no where near as bad as the stuff Mylan has been up to"

    Certainly judgemental, and in my view unfair
    Ahem. One involves the loss of private data. It's bad.

    The other involves rampant price inflation that might put life-saving medicine out of the reach of those who need it, quality-control issues, and failures associated with patient deaths (*).

    So judgemental? Yes. Unfair? It doesn't look like it.

    Deaths matter, after all, even if they paid you a lot of money.

    (*) https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2017/ucm574981.htm
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    edited September 2017
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    The way scores for leaders like Attlee jump up or down to make the numbers fit the result clearly shows hindsight bias.

    Churchill probably had the edge on leadership and charisma then so 1945 and 1950 were the other exceptions beyond Heath v Wilson 1970 in UK terms but again Churchill did beat Attlee in 1951
    In 1951 Attlee won the popular vote - and were it not for the Ulster Unionists then taking the Tory whip the election result would have been a Hung Parliament.
    Unionist parties almost always back the Tories as we still see today.

    Heath of course won the popular vote in February 1974 but it is seats which determine the government
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    Congrats to SeanT. I hope this doesn't mean that you'll be needing your pipe and slippers soon. ;)

    Married life is wonderful. I hope you have a great life together.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,225
    Sean_F said:

    geoffw said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic - I'm going to Oman tomorrow, with my good lady, has anyone else been? Any recommendations? It's totally new to me, I have no idea what to expect.

    The Omanis lust after middle-aged White men. I'd be careful.
    lol. Is that true??!!

    I'm guessing you're joking.

    Anyway I am safe from their ardours. This is something of a honeymoon (albeit a Times Travel piece for which I'm not paying).

    Yes, I got married.
    Congratulations.

    But, as they like to sing:-

    "There's a Sean across the river,
    With a bottom like a peach,
    But the water level's rising,
    And alas, I cannot swim."
    "the most famous of Pathan songs, the 'Zakhmi Dil' ('Wounded Heart') begins with the words, 'There's a boy across the river with a bottom like a peach, but, alas, I cannot swim.' "

    John Masters, Bugles and a Tiger, 1956
    But just take a goat with you because, as Masters also notes:

    " 'A woman for business, a boy for pleasure, a goat for choice' is an old Pathan proverb, . . "
    I can understand the first two, but what would gain from a goat?
    I believe it's behind one of three doors.
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    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic - I'm going to Oman tomorrow, with my good lady, has anyone else been? Any recommendations? It's totally new to me, I have no idea what to expect.

    The Omanis lust after middle-aged White men. I'd be careful.
    lol. Is that true??!!

    I'm guessing you're joking.

    Anyway I am safe from their ardours. This is something of a honeymoon (albeit a Times Travel piece for which I'm not paying).

    Yes, I got married.
    Congratulations.
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    PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    Charles said:

    HYUFD said:

    Still pushing the Democrats I see as the LDs are too weak to do the job, he is scathing about Corbyn, saying he is just as committed to a hard Brexit as May but has some praise for Ed Davey, Chuka Umunna and Rachel Reeves
    "I'm sorry they were too scared to come here today and tell us what they really think" doesn't really sound like "some praise" to me!
    Ed Davey was there - or at least programmed to be there, so I suppose he was.

    Faint praise and condescention from the wet Tories, as usual.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    Scottish and Welsh viewers have left now apparently leaving English and Northern Irish viewers for 'Rule Britannia', 'Jerusalem' and 'Land of Hope and Glory'
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    Notice a number of EU flags in the hall itself for 'Rule Britannia' while just a sea of Union Jacks in Hyde Park
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,225
    I can see Rule Britannia sung by Brunnhilde here in North Britain.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    geoffw said:

    I can see Rule Britannia sung by Brunnhilde here in North Britain.

    Perhaps it was just Proms in the Park in Glasgow and Swansea then as the announcer said 'they are leaving is now' while the main TV coverage continues
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670



    Three senior executives at the company - which is listed on the New York Stock Exchange - sold shares worth almost $1.8m before the breach was publicly disclosed."

    Equifax claim the directors didn't know about the data breach despite the company knowing about the breach for days at that point.

    Jail them for insider trading or disbar them for being fucking useless at their job if they didn't know their company had failed at the one thing it's supposed to do.
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    As Florida is going to be smashed by Irma here's how it looks at the Bahamas.

    The sea has gone as the storm surge sucks it away.

    https://twitter.com/Kaydi_K/status/906579283950403585
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    HYUFD said:

    Notice a number of EU flags in the hall itself for 'Rule Britannia' while just a sea of Union Jacks in Hyde Park

    Does it matter?

    Not sure why the pro-EU lot bother, mind. It's the essence of futility.

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    OchEyeOchEye Posts: 1,469
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up again in 1992 after his loss in 1987 turned out to be a mistake Labour could be doing it again. On the other side of course Heath did win after losing his first general election in 1966 in 1970 but that does not hold much comfort for Labour either as he only lasted a term losing his re election bid in February 1974 and finally being put out of his misery by Wilson in October of that year
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway
    Wrong, the SNP will deal with who ever may or may not deliver Independence, Tory, DUP or BritFirst. They will support the Labour Party only if they think it might increase their chances.

    However, as people in Scotland look at the mess Westminster is making of Brexit after 40 years, they can imagine the problems of Scotexit after 300 years. The SNP are a busted flush.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Just watching last night of the proms and the brain washed EU flag wavers in the hall,could be class difference though with hyde park glorious red white and blue.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,120
    edited September 2017
    Many congratulations to Sean on his marriage. Hopefully very long and very happy - as long as he doesn't discuss politics :)
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    Good speech by the conductor tonight.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    Congrats sean.
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    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,225
    "Remainer Action" - contradiction in terms.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,533
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic - I'm going to Oman tomorrow, with my good lady, has anyone else been? Any recommendations? It's totally new to me, I have no idea what to expect.

    The Omanis lust after middle-aged White men. I'd be careful.
    lol. Is that true??!!

    I'm guessing you're joking.

    Anyway I am safe from their ardours. This is something of a honeymoon (albeit a Times Travel piece for which I'm not paying).

    Yes, I got married.
    Congratulations.

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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Notice a number of EU flags in the hall itself for 'Rule Britannia' while just a sea of Union Jacks in Hyde Park

    There was actually a frantic campaign by Remoaners to crowdfund and then hand out free EU flags to proms-goers tonight. I shit you not.

    The definition of sadness and desperation.

    https://twitter.com/RemainerAction/status/906622096100519938
    Much like the 'March for the EU' today
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    MP_SE2MP_SE2 Posts: 77
    edited September 2017
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Notice a number of EU flags in the hall itself for 'Rule Britannia' while just a sea of Union Jacks in Hyde Park

    There was actually a frantic campaign by Remoaners to crowdfund and then hand out free EU flags to proms-goers tonight. I shit you not.

    The definition of sadness and desperation.

    https://twitter.com/RemainerAction/status/906622096100519938
    Lol.

    Now I think of it, I don't think I have ever seen an EU flag outside someone's house.

    Congrats by the way.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    OchEye said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up again in 1992 after his loss in 1987 turned out to be a mistake Labour could be doing it again. On the other side of course Heath did win after losing his first general election in 1966 in 1970 but that does not hold much comfort for Labour either as he only lasted a term losing his re election bid in February 1974 and finally being put out of his misery by Wilson in October of that year
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway
    Wrong, the SNP will deal with who ever may or may not deliver Independence, Tory, DUP or BritFirst. They will support the Labour Party only if they think it might increase their chances.

    However, as people in Scotland look at the mess Westminster is making of Brexit after 40 years, they can imagine the problems of Scotexit after 300 years. The SNP are a busted flush.
    Given the Tories in a million years will never consider backing Scottish independence that does not really change the point
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up again in 1992 after his loss in 1987 turned out to be a mistake Labour could be doing it again. On the other side of course Heath did win after losing his first general election in 1966 in 1970 but that does not hold much comfort for Labour either as he only lasted a term losing his re election bid in February 1974 and finally being put out of his misery by Wilson in October of that year
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway
    But some of the fall in the LD vote in 1992 will have gone to the Tories who lost 0.5% on a GB basis. I also suspect that Corbyn is now much less toxic with those white working class Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2017. I am still not a great fan myself, but it is a pretty indisputable fact that his standing and authority have been greatly enhanced by the election result, and I suspect Labour has a good prospect of winning many of those voters back next time .
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    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.
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    AllanAllan Posts: 262
    Sean_F said:

    geoffw said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic - I'm going to Oman tomorrow, with my good lady, has anyone else been? Any recommendations? It's totally new to me, I have no idea what to expect.

    The Omanis lust after middle-aged White men. I'd be careful.
    lol. Is that true??!!

    I'm guessing you're joking.

    Anyway I am safe from their ardours. This is something of a honeymoon (albeit a Times Travel piece for which I'm not paying).

    Yes, I got married.
    Congratulations.

    But, as they like to sing:-

    "There's a Sean across the river,
    With a bottom like a peach,
    But the water level's rising,
    And alas, I cannot swim."
    "the most famous of Pathan songs, the 'Zakhmi Dil' ('Wounded Heart') begins with the words, 'There's a boy across the river with a bottom like a peach, but, alas, I cannot swim.' "

    John Masters, Bugles and a Tiger, 1956
    But just take a goat with you because, as Masters also notes:

    " 'A woman for business, a boy for pleasure, a goat for choice' is an old Pathan proverb, . . "
    I can understand the first two, but what would gain from a goat?
    In an article in a newspaper in Grenada in the 1990s when writing about a conviction for bestiality.

    He said that a goat was hairier, smoother and smelt better than a woman.
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    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,269
    Congraulations to @SeanT and his wife!

    Next Tuesday I shall be celebrating 25 years of marriage in Vancouver. Today really is the day because our wedding - and all its anniversaries - coincided with the Last Night of the Proms. As we could not go, my husband insisted we had Jerusalem as one of the hymns at our wedding.

    Still, after 3 children, much joy, lots of laughter and some pain, here we still are.

    I wish you much joy, Sean.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    SeanT said:

    Sean_F said:

    SeanT said:

    ON topic - I'm going to Oman tomorrow, with my good lady, has anyone else been? Any recommendations? It's totally new to me, I have no idea what to expect.

    The Omanis lust after middle-aged White men. I'd be careful.
    lol. Is that true??!!

    I'm guessing you're joking.

    Anyway I am safe from their ardours. This is something of a honeymoon (albeit a Times Travel piece for which I'm not paying).

    Yes, I got married.
    I doubt you'll be slumming it with the Embassy crowd, but if you do pass by, say hi to Russ and Debbie Dixon for me ...
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
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    sladeslade Posts: 1,942
    SeanT said:

    ON topic - I'm going to Oman tomorrow, with my good lady, has anyone else been? Any recommendations? It's totally new to me, I have no idea what to expect.

    A fascinating place. Things to see or discuss - the Japanese submarine, the grand canyon of the east, the empty quarter, the villages bombed by the RAF, and the battle of Mirbat.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    edited September 2017
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and gettiyear
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway
    But some of the fall in the LD vote in 1992 will have gone to the Tories who lost 0.5% on a GB basis. I also suspect that Corbyn is now much less toxic with those white working class Labour voters who switched to the Tories in 2017. I am still not a great fan myself, but it is a pretty indisputable fact that his standing and authority have been greatly enhanced by the election result, and I suspect Labour has a good prospect of winning many of those voters back next time .
    Labour rose 3.6% in 1992 and the LDs were down 4.8% so a clear majority of those SDP votes went to Labour. Far from being 'less toxic' with those white working class voters Corbyn may be at risk of losing those working class Leave voters he held in June by backtracking on his promise to end free movement and leave the single market without winning enough centrists who voted for May to compensate.

    His standing has been enhanced by this general election but next general election it is win or bust for Corbyn, if he loses, especially if the Tories get a small overall majority the likes of Umunna will be ready to strike without hesitation though I expect he would resign anyway
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    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    You mean this?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmAsIc9H_Bg
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,110

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    The current one is just fine :smiley:
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    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
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    I did change planes at Muscat on the way to India once :)
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    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    If you were referring to Jerusalem then you are a tasteless moron who has no right to comment on anything. It is simply the best classical song ever written.
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    RobD said:

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    The current one is just fine :smiley:
    1) Our national anthem is annoying to republicans and atheists.

    2) England doesn't have a national anthem.
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    Cyclefree said:

    Congraulations to @SeanT and his wife!

    Next Tuesday I shall be celebrating 25 years of marriage in Vancouver. Today really is the day because our wedding - and all its anniversaries - coincided with the Last Night of the Proms. As we could not go, my husband insisted we had Jerusalem as one of the hymns at our wedding.

    Still, after 3 children, much joy, lots of laughter and some pain, here we still are.

    I wish you much joy, Sean.

    Many congratulations - and what a wonderful place to celebrate. I was there last year and loved it.

    A happy marriage is a wonderful blessing. I'm on Year 28. I have been immensely lucky. My poor wife, though ...

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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Alistair said:

    As Florida is going to be smashed by Irma here's how it looks at the Bahamas.

    The sea has gone as the storm surge sucks it away.

    https://twitter.com/Kaydi_K/status/906579283950403585

    I am not sure that is wise, that water will return, possibly very quickly.

    Nature is a fearsome thing.
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    RobD said:

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    The current one is just fine :smiley:
    1) Our national anthem is annoying to republicans and atheists.

    2) England doesn't have a national anthem.
    point 1 is what recommends it
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    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    If you were referring to Jerusalem then you are a tasteless moron who has no right to comment on anything. It is simply the best classical song ever written.
    I attend a lot of England cricket matches, they play it before the start of each day's play.

    It doesn't inspire.

    And don't even get me start about the idiot who wonders 'And did those feet in ancient time...'

    The answer is NO.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,110

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    If you were referring to Jerusalem then you are a tasteless moron who has no right to comment on anything. It is simply the best classical song ever written.
    I attend a lot of England cricket matches, they play it before the start of each day's play.

    It doesn't inspire.

    And don't even get me start about the idiot who wonders 'And did those feet in ancient time...'

    The answer is NO.
    QTWTAIN? :p
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    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

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    Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 49,760
    edited September 2017

    RobD said:

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    The current one is just fine :smiley:
    1) Our national anthem is annoying to republicans and atheists.

    2) England doesn't have a national anthem.
    The Americans sing it as "My country 'tis of Thee".
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    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up again in 1992 after his loss in 1987 turned out to be a mistake Labour could be doing it again. On the other side of course Heath did win after losing his first general election in 1966 in 1970 but that does not hold much comfort for Labour either as he only lasted a term losing his re election bid in February 1974 and finally being put out of his misery by Wilson in October of that year
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His standing has been enhanced by this general election but next general election it is win or bust for Corbyn, if he loses, especially if the Tories get a small overall majority the likes of Umunna will be ready to strike without hesitation though I expect he would resign anyway
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct from the Brexit issue. Indeed I know of some people personally - including from within my own family - who switched from Labour because of him on the basis of his perceived unsuitability to be PM. I believe that many of those voters probably view him in a more positive light now - again I am aware of people who have switched back to Labour. I am not suggesting they will become Corbyn fans , but the issue of his suitability will be - indeed already is - much less salient.
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    tysontyson Posts: 6,052
    Deferred gratification.....I'ver managed to make the whole day to MoD without knowing the results........

    Congrats to me ole mucker seanT and to CycleFree on her anniversary
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)
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    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    If you were referring to Jerusalem then you are a tasteless moron who has no right to comment on anything. It is simply the best classical song ever written.
    I attend a lot of England cricket matches, they play it before the start of each day's play.

    It doesn't inspire.

    And don't even get me start about the idiot who wonders 'And did those feet in ancient time...'

    The answer is NO.
    The Prodigy Stand Up

    we dont even have to sing
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    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/janemerrick23/status/906629983182999552

    Bloody hell this is good by @NickCohen4


    *reads tweet*

    *checks result of referendum*

    Nope. Still the same.

  • Options

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    If you were referring to Jerusalem then you are a tasteless moron who has no right to comment on anything. It is simply the best classical song ever written.
    I attend a lot of England cricket matches, they play it before the start of each day's play.

    It doesn't inspire.

    And don't even get me start about the idiot who wonders 'And did those feet in ancient time...'

    The answer is NO.
    I have come to the conclusion that you have no soul.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up again in 1992 after his loss in 1987 turned out to be a mistake Labour could be doing it again. On the other side of course Heath did win after losing his first general election in 1966 in 1970 but that does not hold much comfort for Labour either as he only lasted a term losing his re election bid in February 1974 and finally being put out of his misery by Wilson in October of that year
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct from the Brexit issue. Indeed I know of some people personally - including from within my own family - who switched from Labour because of him on the basis of his perceived unsuitability to be PM. I believe that many of those voters probably view him in a more positive light now - again I am aware of people who have switched back to Labour. I am not suggesting they will become Corbyn fans , but the issue of his suitability will be - indeed already is - much less salient.
    Corbyn still has a net negative rating, it is May's move into negative territory which is the big change.

    Next time the Tories will have a different leader and will not be pushing disastrous policies like the dementia tax which saw some of those who were going to vote Tory move to Labour
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964
    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up again in 1992 after his loss in 1987 turned out to be a mistake Labour could be doing it again. On the other side of course Heath did win after losing his first general election in 1966 in 1970 but that does not hold much comfort for Labour either as he only lasted a term losing his re election bid in February 1974 and finally being put out of his misery by Wilson in October of that year
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct from the Brexit issue. Indeed I know of some people personally - including from within my own family - who switched from Labour because of him on the basis of his perceived unsuitability to be PM. I believe that many of those voters probably view him in a more positive light now - again I am aware of people who have switched back to Labour. I am not suggesting they will become Corbyn fans , but the issue of his suitability will be - indeed already is - much less salient.
    Corbyn still has a net negative rating, it is May's move into negative territory which is the big change.

    Next time the Tories will have a different leader and will not be pushing disastrous policies like the dementia tax which saw some of those who were going to vote Tory move to Labour
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
  • Options
    SeanT said:

    MP_SE2 said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    Notice a number of EU flags in the hall itself for 'Rule Britannia' while just a sea of Union Jacks in Hyde Park

    There was actually a frantic campaign by Remoaners to crowdfund and then hand out free EU flags to proms-goers tonight. I shit you not.

    The definition of sadness and desperation.

    https://twitter.com/RemainerAction/status/906622096100519938
    Lol.

    Now I think of it, I don't think I have ever seen an EU flag outside someone's house.

    Congrats by the way.
    I actually just got blocked - BLOCKED - by that Remainer who was in charge of the free-flag-handing-out thingy. He did this after I mildly mocked him by suggesting they should crowdfund some currywurst to wave at the Queen at Royal Ascot.

    That was my crime. And he blocked me. These Remoaner twats are beyond pathetic. They're not just bad losers, they're feeble snowflakey pissabed nonces of the very first water. utterly laughable.

    How are you gonna win over a nation to your way of thinking if, whenever someone engages your argument, you literally run away and hide?

    https://twitter.com/thomasknox/status/906630594041348096
    I actually LOL'd at the thought of a bunch of oddballs waving sausages at the Queen.

    The lack of engagement over a period of several decades massively contributed to leave winning. It would appear that even now the europhiles have little interest in engaging.
  • Options
    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Alistair said:

    As Florida is going to be smashed by Irma here's how it looks at the Bahamas.

    The sea has gone as the storm surge sucks it away.

    https://twitter.com/Kaydi_K/status/906579283950403585

    I am not sure that is wise, that water will return, possibly very quickly.

    Nature is a fearsome thing.
    It's quite a gradual process both out and in when a hurricane does it, not like a earthquake tsunami.
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    As bad as the Equifax 'hack' might be, it's nowhere near as bad as the stuff Mylan have been getting up to with Epipen. Firstly there were the massive price hikes, and then this:

    "FDA slams EpiPen maker for doing nothing while hundreds failed, people died
    In damning letter, agency says maker didn’t fix violations or recall bad batches."

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/fda-slams-epipen-maker-for-doing-nothing-while-hundreds-failed-people-died/

    "Mylan had maintained about a 90% market share since it had acquired the product, and had continually raised the price of EpiPens starting in 2009: in 2009, the wholesale price of two EpiPens was about $100; by July 2013, the price was about $265; in May 2015, it was around $461; and in May 2016, the price rose again to around $609,[25] around a 500% jump from the price in 2009.[75] The cost of the drug and device to Mylan as of 2016 was about $35"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epinephrine_autoinjector

    Declaration of interest: Mylan paid me a lot of money to help them buy Epipen from E Merck Darmstadt.
    And your point is?
    Because you are being unfair to Mylan but it's important to be transparent that I like Heather.
    I have quoted sources. In what way am I being 'unfair' ?
    As bad as equifax might be ... "it is no where near as bad as the stuff Mylan has been up to"

    Certainly judgemental, and in my view unfair
    Ahem. One involves the loss of private data. It's bad.

    The other involves rampant price inflation that might put life-saving medicine out of the reach of those who need it, quality-control issues, and failures associated with patient deaths (*).

    So judgemental? Yes. Unfair? It doesn't look like it.

    Deaths matter, after all, even if they paid you a lot of money.

    (*) https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2017/ucm574981.htm
    The US government chooses how to reimburse medicines. Mylan s strategy was not particularly egregious. And no one pays list price anyway

    Quality is the industry's lodestar of course. Errors happen and are typically fixed quickly, but manufacturing standards are getting higher and higher and that is s good thing
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up again in 1992 after his loss in 1987 turned out to be a mistake Labour could be doing it again. On the other side of course Heath did win after losing his first general election in 1966 in 1970 but that does not hold much comfort for Labour either as he only lasted a term losing his re election bid in February 1974 and finally being put out of his misery by Wilson in October of that year
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn still has a net negative rating, it is May's move into negative territory which is the big change.

    Next time the Tories will have a different leader and will not be pushing disastrous policies like the dementia tax which saw some of those who were going to vote Tory move to Labour
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,110
    edited September 2017



    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?

    Did you see the report in the Telegraph? They might do something about it, although they are at fault for getting into this mess in the first place. Inflation+3%... what were they thinking?
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up again in 1992 after his loss in 1987 turned out to be a mistake Labour could be doing it again. On the other side of course Heath did win after losing his first general election in 1966 in 1970 but that does not hold much comfort for Labour either as he only lasted a term losing his re election bid in February 1974 and finally being put out of his misery by Wilson in October of that year
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn still has a net negative rating, it is May's move into negative territory which is the big change.

    Next time the Tories will have a different leader and will not be pushing disastrous policies like the dementia tax which saw some of those who were going to vote Tory move to Labour
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
  • Options
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    As bad as the Equifax 'hack' might be, it's nowhere near as bad as the stuff Mylan have been getting up to with Epipen. Firstly there were the massive price hikes, and then this:

    "FDA slams EpiPen maker for doing nothing while hundreds failed, people died
    In damning letter, agency says maker didn’t fix violations or recall bad batches."

    https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/09/fda-slams-epipen-maker-for-doing-nothing-while-hundreds-failed-people-died/

    "Mylan had maintained about a 90% market share since it had acquired the product, and had continually raised the price of EpiPens starting in 2009: in 2009, the wholesale price of two EpiPens was about $100; by July 2013, the price was about $265; in May 2015, it was around $461; and in May 2016, the price rose again to around $609,[25] around a 500% jump from the price in 2009.[75] The cost of the drug and device to Mylan as of 2016 was about $35"

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epinephrine_autoinjector

    Declaration of interest: Mylan paid me a lot of money to help them buy Epipen from E Merck Darmstadt.
    And your point is?
    Because you are being unfair to Mylan but it's important to be transparent that I like Heather.
    I have quoted sources. In what way am I being 'unfair' ?
    As bad as equifax might be ... "it is no where near as bad as the stuff Mylan has been up to"

    Certainly judgemental, and in my view unfair
    Ahem. One involves the loss of private data. It's bad.

    The other involves rampant price inflation that might put life-saving medicine out of the reach of those who need it, quality-control issues, and failures associated with patient deaths (*).

    So judgemental? Yes. Unfair? It doesn't look like it.

    Deaths matter, after all, even if they paid you a lot of money.

    (*) https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2017/ucm574981.htm
    The US government chooses how to reimburse medicines. Mylan s strategy was not particularly egregious. And no one pays list price anyway

    Quality is the industry's lodestar of course. Errors happen and are typically fixed quickly, but manufacturing standards are getting higher and higher and that is s good thing
    What do you make of what happened over at Turing Pharmaceuticals? Was it just profiteering or were they really going to reinvest the profits in research?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,038
    edited September 2017

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Rioja last time I was in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,110
    edited September 2017

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    at least they didn't try to cover up their crime by replacing the contents with a bottle of cheap plonk. :p
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964
    edited September 2017

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    I went through that with red wine

    love the stuff but the tannin kills me next day, these days I stick mostly to white

    do you get hit with all alcohol ?
  • Options

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    It could have been much worse.

    A former colleague of mine for 20 years had a special bottle malt whisky which he was saving for a very special occasion.

    His girlfriend at the time didn't realise it was a special drink opened it, and worst of all, ADDED PEPSI to it.
  • Options
    RobD said:

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    at least they didn't try to cover up their crime by replacing the contents with a bottle of cheap plonk. :p

    They didn't let it breathe!!!

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 59,110

    RobD said:

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    at least they didn't try to cover up their crime by replacing the contents with a bottle of cheap plonk. :p

    They didn't let it breathe!!!

    We were all young once ;)
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,472
    edited September 2017
    Charles said:


    Ahem. One involves the loss of private data. It's bad.

    The other involves rampant price inflation that might put life-saving medicine out of the reach of those who need it, quality-control issues, and failures associated with patient deaths (*).

    So judgemental? Yes. Unfair? It doesn't look like it.

    Deaths matter, after all, even if they paid you a lot of money.

    (*) https://www.fda.gov/ICECI/EnforcementActions/WarningLetters/2017/ucm574981.htm

    The US government chooses how to reimburse medicines. Mylan s strategy was not particularly egregious. And no one pays list price anyway

    Quality is the industry's lodestar of course. Errors happen and are typically fixed quickly, but manufacturing standards are getting higher and higher and that is s good thing
    "not particularly egregious"

    Well, that's alright then. Or, more accurately, no it's not.

    As for 'errors happening': read the report. It wasn't just errors happening: it was an utter failure to even try to find out why they were failing, correct it, or issue a recall. They only disassembled and investigated a few of 171 units that had been returned to them after failing.

    In fact, your own data show that you received hundreds of complaints that your EpiPen products failed to operate during life-threatening emergencies, including some situations in which patients subsequently died. Many of the complaints related to product activation failures, including failures to activate when the user followed the operating instructions, as well as failures for products that spontaneously dispensed epinephrine drug prior to use so that the drug was no longer available when the user attempted to activate the product. You did not thoroughly investigate these complaints. Moreover, we note that your follow up did not include removing potentially defective products from the marketplace, even though you had identified a defect in one of the critical components used to manufacture these products and even though you ultimately confirmed the same or similar component defect as the root cause for multiple complaints.

    That (and it is only part of it) alone is much more than 'errors happen'.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up againyear
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seats because the LD vote fell 4.8% from the 22.6% the SDP won in 1987 and almost all that went to Labour, the Tory vote was only down 0.3%, barely unchanged. The LD vote is now only 7% so Corbyn has effectively squeezed it as far as he can already

    Labour gains from the SNP in Scotland of course make no difference to Tory prospects of forming a government or winning a majority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015, actually most students repay their fees after they graduate.

    It was not fees which cost May her majority but the dementia tax that was when the big shift from Tories to Labour with the 40s to 50s came. Though the Tories are promising some sensible proposals like cheaper 2 year degrees now
  • Options

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    I went through that with red wine

    love the stuff but the tannin kills me next day, these days I stick mostly to white

    do you get hit with all alcohol ?

    I'm OK with a couple of beers and half a bottle of wine. Beyond that and I'm done whatever it is. I had a calvados on holiday after a superb dinner out. One glass. Loved it. The next day, horrific.

  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,225
    edited September 2017

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    If you were referring to Jerusalem then you are a tasteless moron who has no right to comment on anything. It is simply the best classical song ever written.
    I attend a lot of England cricket matches, they play it before the start of each day's play.

    It doesn't inspire.

    And don't even get me start about the idiot who wonders 'And did those feet in ancient time...'

    The answer is NO.
    I know that irony doesn't work on the internet. But advertising on the internet that you don't get Blake's irony in those words is a veritable howler of self mockery.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    I went through that with red wine

    love the stuff but the tannin kills me next day, these days I stick mostly to white

    do you get hit with all alcohol ?
    I get the same to a degree, but I find lighter reds such as Beaujolais are fine
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964
    edited September 2017
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like putting Kinnock up againyear
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015, actually most students repay their fees after they graduate.

    It was not fees which cost May her majority but the dementia tax that was when the big shift from Tories to Labour with the 40s to 50s came. Though the Tories are promising some sensible proposals like cheaper 2 year degrees now
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    I went through that with red wine

    love the stuff but the tannin kills me next day, these days I stick mostly to white

    do you get hit with all alcohol ?

    I'm OK with a couple of beers and half a bottle of wine. Beyond that and I'm done whatever it is. I had a calvados on holiday after a superb dinner out. One glass. Loved it. The next day, horrific.

    shit !

    I couldnt face that !
  • Options

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    It could have been much worse.

    A former colleague of mine for 20 years had a special bottle malt whisky which he was saving for a very special occasion.

    His girlfriend at the time didn't realise it was a special drink opened it, and worst of all, ADDED PEPSI to it.

    "At the time"!!!!

  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    I went through that with red wine

    love the stuff but the tannin kills me next day, these days I stick mostly to white

    do you get hit with all alcohol ?
    I get the same to a degree, but I find lighter reds such as Beaujolais are fine
    Me too doc fox

    I love chilled light reds and can just about cope with them

    pinot noir d'alsace, gamay dornfelder et al are great
  • Options

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    I went through that with red wine

    love the stuff but the tannin kills me next day, these days I stick mostly to white

    do you get hit with all alcohol ?

    I'm OK with a couple of beers and half a bottle of wine. Beyond that and I'm done whatever it is. I had a calvados on holiday after a superb dinner out. One glass. Loved it. The next day, horrific.

    shit !

    I couldnt face that !

    Sometimes I just say fuck it and take the pain. That will not be my last calvados. But with the next one I'll go all in and have a Montecristo No. 2 as well!

  • Options
    I appear to have wandered onto an alcoholics anonymous forum
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    I went through that with red wine

    love the stuff but the tannin kills me next day, these days I stick mostly to white

    do you get hit with all alcohol ?

    I'm OK with a couple of beers and half a bottle of wine. Beyond that and I'm done whatever it is. I had a calvados on holiday after a superb dinner out. One glass. Loved it. The next day, horrific.

    shit !

    I couldnt face that !

    Sometimes I just say fuck it and take the pain. That will not be my last calvados. But with the next one I'll go all in and have a Montecristo No. 2 as well!

    sometimes a man has to do what a man has to do :-)
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    I appear to have wandered onto an alcoholics anonymous forum

    drop the anonymous
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    edited September 2017

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's up againyear
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
    That is an issue with the leadership of the company which is extremely slow in processing repayments but at least there are still repayments rather than loading all the burden on the taxpayer, half of all will not be graduates.

    If an 18 year old wants to do a degree which will likely significantly increase their lifetime earnings then it is only right that they pay for it on graduation at 21 not taxpayers. The problem is their is not enough of a market not too much ideally Russell Group universities and high earnings premium subjects should charge above £9000 a year and lower ranked universities far less.

    The biggest move to Labour the entire campaign came after the dementia tax, that was what cost May her majority
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015, actually most students repay their fees after they graduate.

    It was not fees which cost May her majority but the dementia tax that was when the big shift from Tories to Labour with the 40s to 50s came. Though the Tories are promising some sensible proposals like cheaper 2 year degrees now
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
    Even on the governments own figures at leat a third of the fees will be written off, or more accurately, paid off by the taxpayer. It could well be more. There is a virtue trap in that those that do pay it off, will pay a second time via taxation.

    As the system grinds on, more and more get sucked into that whirlpool of debt. They are unlikely to feel gratitude to the Tories, or indeed Vince Cable's LDs.

    As a fifty something, I was quite OK with the Dementia tax.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    These Remoaner twats are beyond pathetic. They're not just bad losers, they're feeble snowflakey pissabed nonces of the very first water. utterly laughable.

    How are you gonna win over a nation to your way of thinking if, whenever someone engages your argument, you literally run away and hide?

    Brexiteers are much better

    https://twitter.com/litchick79/status/906642050988298245

    Oh, wait...
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
    Even on the governments own figures at leat a third of the fees will be written off, or more accurately, paid off by the taxpayer. It could well be more. There is a virtue trap in that those that do pay it off, will pay a second time via taxation.

    As the system grinds on, more and more get sucked into that whirlpool of debt. They are unlikely to feel gratitude to the Tories, or indeed Vince Cable's LDs.

    As a fifty something, I was quite OK with the Dementia tax.
    You are centre left, hardly surprising you are not bothered by the government taking people's main asset nor taxpayers paying the entire fees of middle class students' degree courses
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SeanT said:

    Here comes the dirge some bellends want as our national anthem.

    nah this

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rF7kzj4lCnE
    Our new national anthem, or England's national anthem should be Bohemian Rhapsody.
    dont give a shit as long as we can nail katie dereham

    Just one bottle? ;-)

    way beyond that SO :-)

    Good on you!

    My allergy to hangovers means I have cutback on the booze big time this year. Never do more than half a bottle now and then only rarely. I splashed out on a very fine 2005 Tioja last time I eas in Barcelona and was saving it for Xmas. Got back from holiday to discover my daughter and her friends had drunk it. A body blow.

    I went through that with red wine

    love the stuff but the tannin kills me next day, these days I stick mostly to white

    do you get hit with all alcohol ?
    I get the same to a degree, but I find lighter reds such as Beaujolais are fine
    Me too doc fox

    I love chilled light reds and can just about cope with them

    pinot noir d'alsace, gamay dornfelder et al are great
    I don't know if I am lucky, or a secretly dying alcoholic, but I very rarely get hangovers these days.

    I do a bottle of red a night, on average, with a day off once a week. I can go up to a bottle and a half, or two bottles of champagne, and STILL there's no hangover.

    More than that and I do feel fuggy, but..... not unless.

    It's quite weird. I wonder if my body has just adapted.
    Quite possibly it is adaption. I drink around 10 units per week, and rarely if at all during the week outside holidays. When I have a couple of pints or a half bottle of wine, it is enough. I don't enjoy nursing hangovers any more.
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's up againyear
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former onservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student loan system is in crisis and d policies
    That is an issue with the leadership of the company which is extremely slow in processing repayments but at least there are still repayments rather than loading all the burden on the taxpayer, half of all will not be graduates.

    If an 18 year old wants to do a degree which will likely significantly increase their lifetime earnings then it is only right that they pay for it on graduation at 21 not taxpayers. The problem is their is not enough of a market not too much ideally Russell Group universities and high earnings premium subjects should charge above £9000 a year and lower ranked universities far less.

    The biggest move to Labour the entire campaign came after the dementia tax, that was what cost May her majority
    older people are great at asking the young to pick up their tab

    the most encouraging thing in 2017 was the Jezza turnout for Jezza among young voters

    I can only applaud their two fingered salute to the Conservatives it gives hope for the country's future

    the blues need to go back to the drawing board or string up Osborna and Willetts pour encourager les autres
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015, actually mes now
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
    Even on the governments own figures at leat a third of the fees will be written off, or more accurately, paid off by the taxpayer. It could well be more. There is a virtue trap in that those that do pay it off, will pay a second time via taxation.

    As the system grinds on, more and more get sucked into that whirlpool of debt. They are unlikely to feel gratitude to the Tories, or indeed Vince Cable's LDs.

    As a fifty something, I was quite OK with the Dementia tax.
    me too

    the tax on youth just sucks
  • Options
    AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 23,964
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
    Even on the governments own figures at leat a third Cable's LDs.

    As a fifty something, I was quite OK with the Dementia tax.
    You are centre left, hardly surprising you are not bothered by the government taking people's main asset nor taxpayers paying the entire fees of middle class students' degree courses
    the government could pay all the fees within existing taxation if it didnt piss money up the walls

    start there
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
    Even on the governments own .
    You are centre left, hardly surprising you are not bothered by the government taking people's main asset nor taxpayers paying the entire fees of middle class students' degree courses
    Grandpa Fox has a house worth £500 000, so I would be one of those affected, but yes. I do believe that the intergenerational spread of wealth in the country needs addressing.

    Reducing immigration significantly worsens the dependency ratio of working age Britons. There are simply a finite amount of workers to support the elderly either financially or socially. Load them with further debt and their disposeable income vanishes. Brexit does not cause the problem, but will exacerbate it, even if the youngsters do not emigrate themselves.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's up againyear
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats in 1992. Labour's potential to make substantial gains in Scotland next time might well mean that Corbyn performs a fair bit better than that.
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former onservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student loan system is in crisis and d policies
    That is an issue with the leadership of the company which is extremely slow in processing repayments but at least there are still repayments rather than loading all the burden on the taxpayer, half of all will not be graduates.

    If an 18 year old

    The biggest move to Labour the entire campaign came after the dementia tax, that was what cost May her majority
    older people are great at asking the young to pick up their tab

    the most encouraging thing in 2017 was the Jezza turnout for Jezza among young voters

    I can only applaud their two fingered salute to the Conservatives it gives hope for the country's future

    the blues need to go back to the drawing board or string up Osborna and Willetts pour encourager les autres
    A turnout which still saw Labour lose because of the Tories lead amongst even higher turnout older voters despite the losses they made with middle aged over the dementia tax
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015, actually mes now
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
    Even on the governments own figures at leat a third of the fees will be written off, or more accurately, paid off by the with the Dementia tax.
    me too

    the tax on youth just sucks
    It is not a 'tax on youth' when just over half of youth never go to university nor have to repay fees but it would be if they had to pay the taxes of those who do
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    They need to engage their opponents, get out there and make their case

    Unlike Brexiteers who engage their opponents by shouting "Get Over It" for a year
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been true 15 out of 20 times since 1945 in the UK what does this mean for the next election in Britain? Because Corbyn still trails behind in the leadership stakes, even against the hapless Theresa May.

    It means Corbyn's better than expected performance at the last general election may turn into a pyrrhic victory for Labour, instead of losing and getting someone who looks more like a leader and is a bit more centrist they may have given the Tories a 4th general election where they win most seats.

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories with the 40 to 50 swing voter bracket, the young vote Labour anyway and university fees were brought in by Labour in the first place
    not that simple

    parents fund their kids, Uni fees stopped me voting conservative in 2015 and I agreed with Jezza in 2017

    double whammy
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student loan system is in crisis and doesnt pay its way, eventually it will get dumped back on the tax paying public

    why is it reasonable to stuff a 21 year old up with £57k of debt before they even have a job

    what cost May a majority was having no policies
    Even on the governments own figures at leat a third Cable's LDs.

    As a fifty something, I was quite OK with the Dementia tax.
    You are centre left, hardly surprising you are not bothered by the government taking people's main asset nor taxpayers paying the entire fees of middle class students' degree courses
    the government could pay all the fees within existing taxation if it didnt piss money up the walls

    start there
    So what spending do you propose to slash to pay for middle class student fees then? The NHS perhaps
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been May.

    It means

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories
    not that
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student
    Even on .
    You
    Grandpa Fox has a house worth £500 000, so I would be one of those affected, but yes. I do believe that the intergenerational spread of wealth in the country needs addressing.

    Reducing immigration significantly worsens the dependency ratio of working age Britons. There are simply a finite amount of workers to support the elderly either financially or socially. Load them with further debt and their disposeable income vanishes. Brexit does not cause the problem, but will exacerbate it, even if the youngsters do not emigrate themselves.
    Well it is hardly going to be helped if the older generation get to keep a wealthy asset the entirety of their lives and then their children get to inherit virtually none of it if they get dementia and need personal care now is it.

    Reducing immigration also reduces the number who will themselves need care at some future stage and healthcare, education, housing etc too. Given the focus is on reducing low skilled rather than high skilled immigration those who make the greatest net contribution to the country will still in the main be able to come here.

    Load taxpayers with yet more taxes to fund universities and you not only place a burden on a higher percentage of the population than fees you also fail to provide the investment our universities need to remain at the top of the league table
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    SeanT said:

    We Brexiteers don't have to do anything. We don't have to engage or persuade or caucus.

    Keep telling yourself that if it helps you sleep at night
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    SeanT said:

    I agree with the opponents of student loans. It is a subject on which I have almost completely changed my mind.

    It's not working. It needs to be majorly finessed, or scrapped entirely.

    What needs to happen is a proper market, slash fees for the lowest ranked universities and degrees with the lowest graduate premium, double them for Russell Group universities and degrees which will produce investment bankers, corporate lawyers, doctors and Google and Apple employees.

    The problem with fees is the universal £9000 fee not the principle of fees themselves
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,458
    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    I agree with the opponents of student loans. It is a subject on which I have almost completely changed my mind.

    It's not working. It needs to be majorly finessed, or scrapped entirely.

    What needs to happen is a proper market, slash fees for the lowest ranked universities and degrees with the lowest graduate premium, double them for Russell Group universities and degrees which will produce investment bankers, corporate lawyers, doctors and Google and Apple employees.

    The problem with fees is the universal £9000 fee not the principle of fees themselves
    Yes. That makes a lot of sense to me.
    Just needs a politician to take the plunge
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    justin124 said:

    HYUFD said:

    stevef said:

    So given that this has been May.

    It means

    Much like puttinar
    Kinnock did win an additional 42 seats
    Kinnock only won an additional 42 seatority as SNP MPs will back Labour anyway

    His st
    I disagree . Many of the Labour voters who switched to the Tories this year did so on an 'Anti - Corbyn' basis which was very distinct
    Corbyn
    which is more damaging

    dementia tax or university fees ?
    The former as it cost the Tories
    not that
    The Tories won a majority in 2015,
    the student
    Even on .
    You
    Grandpa Fox has a house
    Well it is hardly going to be helped if the older generation get to keep a wealthy asset the entirety of their lives and then their children get to inherit virtually none of it if they get dementia and need personal care now is it.

    Reducing immigration also reduces the number who will themselves need care at some future stage and healthcare, education, housing etc too. Given the focus is on reducing low skilled rather than high skilled immigration those who make the greatest net contribution to the country will still in the main be able to come here.

    Load taxpayers with yet more taxes to fund universities and you not only place a burden on a higher percentage of the population than fees you also fail to provide the investment our universities need to remain at the top of the league table
    It is all about whether we have policies that favour the young, or the retired. I think May suffered substantially by favouring the latter.

    Jezza hadn't done his sums, but his policy resonated because at least he recognises that there is a problem. A big one too.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,110
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    I agree with the opponents of student loans. It is a subject on which I have almost completely changed my mind.

    It's not working. It needs to be majorly finessed, or scrapped entirely.

    What needs to happen is a proper market, slash fees for the lowest ranked universities and degrees with the lowest graduate premium, double them for Russell Group universities and degrees which will produce investment bankers, corporate lawyers, doctors and Google and Apple employees.

    The problem with fees is the universal £9000 fee not the principle of fees themselves
    Yes. That makes a lot of sense to me.
    Just needs a politician to take the plunge
    The current policy is basically a graduate tax that turns off after 30 years. Why not just turn it into an actual graduate tax. The rate could be a lot lower if people pay it for the rest of their lives.
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    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Not in the ame class as special whiskey - my mother is keen to that her carers should have birthday presents, I give them Pommery champagne and harry spektor chocolates. Was suprised how many mixed the champagne with orange juice.
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