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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » How the Tories are still paying the price for Cameron’s failur

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  • PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.

    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,885

    And I thought I had been on a few bad dates.

    I recently took a girl I met on tinder to Nandos. We had a lovely evening, and enjoyed each others company very much. After our meal, we repaired back to my house for a bottle of wine and a scientology doccumentary.

    About an hour in to Louis Theroux and chill, my date got up to use the toilet. She returned with a panicked look in her eye, and told me she had something to tell me.

    "I went for a poo in your toilet", she told me "and it would not flush. I don't know why I did this, but I panicked", she continued "I reached into the toilet bowl, wrapped it in tissue paper, and threw it out of the window".

    I was understandably concerned, and told her we would go outside, bag up the offending poo in the garden, bin it, and pretend the whole sorry affair had never happened. Unfortunately, owing to a design quirk of my house, the toilet window does not in fact open to the garden, but instead into a narrow gap of about a foot and a half, seperated from the outside world by another (non-opening) double glazed window. It was into this twilight zone that my date had thrown her poo. Here are two photos to illustrate:

    As can be seen in the picture, the inside window opens at the top, into the gap that is seperated from the garden by a non-opening double-glazed window pane. Seeing only one solution, I messaged our house group-chat, and went upstairs to find a hammer and chisel to smash open the window.

    My date had other ideas.

    Being an amateur gymnast, she was convinced that she could reach into the window and pull the poo out, using the tried and tested "inside out blag as glove" technique. Unfortunately she couldn't reach. She climbed further in and had the same problem. Eventually I agreed to give her a boost up and into the window. She climbed in head first after her own turd, reached deeper into the window, bagged it up, and passed it out, over the top and back into the toilet from whence it came. She called out to me to help her climb out from the window, I grabbed her waist and I pulled. But she was stuck. Stuck fast. Try as we might, we could not remove her from the window. She was stuck fast, upside down in the gap....

    https://www.gofundme.com/9wvxt9-replacement-window



    I am shocked, shocked I tell you. Watching a scientology documentary. :o
    Is that a euphemism for Ugandan discussions?
  • PAW said:

    So the powers are too wide ranging for an elected UK government, but OK for the non elected EU Commission to have?

    That is a brilliant argument.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.

    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
    diddums
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681

    And I thought I had been on a few bad dates.

    I recently took a girl I met on tinder to Nandos. We had a lovely evening, and enjoyed each others company very much. After our meal, we repaired back to my house for a bottle of wine and a scientology doccumentary.

    About an hour in to Louis Theroux and chill, my date got up to use the toilet. She returned with a panicked look in her eye, and told me she had something to tell me.

    "I went for a poo in your toilet", she told me "and it would not flush. I don't know why I did this, but I panicked", she continued "I reached into the toilet bowl, wrapped it in tissue paper, and threw it out of the window".

    I was understandably concerned, and told her we would go outside, bag up the offending poo in the garden, bin it, and pretend the whole sorry affair had never happened. Unfortunately, owing to a design quirk of my house, the toilet window does not in fact open to the garden, but instead into a narrow gap of about a foot and a half, seperated from the outside world by another (non-opening) double glazed window. It was into this twilight zone that my date had thrown her poo. Here are two photos to illustrate:

    As can be seen in the picture, the inside window opens at the top, into the gap that is seperated from the garden by a non-opening double-glazed window pane. Seeing only one solution, I messaged our house group-chat, and went upstairs to find a hammer and chisel to smash open the window.

    My date had other ideas.

    Being an amateur gymnast, she was convinced that she could reach into the window and pull the poo out, using the tried and tested "inside out blag as glove" technique. Unfortunately she couldn't reach. She climbed further in and had the same problem. Eventually I agreed to give her a boost up and into the window. She climbed in head first after her own turd, reached deeper into the window, bagged it up, and passed it out, over the top and back into the toilet from whence it came. She called out to me to help her climb out from the window, I grabbed her waist and I pulled. But she was stuck. Stuck fast. Try as we might, we could not remove her from the window. She was stuck fast, upside down in the gap....

    https://www.gofundme.com/9wvxt9-replacement-window

    On the subject of tinder dating, I ran across this the other day. Most of us blokes are not good enough it seems...

    https://twitter.com/SteveStuWill/status/903902395352080385
    Tinder is largely a hlookup app for good looking people, average or below average looking people looking for something longer term are better off with eharmony
  • Nigelb said:

    Another cost of Brexit (given our governments' parsimony when it comes to research investment)...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41160914

    Cambridge soaring in the rankings, Oxford stagnating.
    Not in Prime Minister count........
    A minor functionary, now Nobel Laureates, that's the real benchmark for a top university, 90 odd v 50 odd, another good benchmark is how many Cambridge graduates were recruited to work for MI5 and SIS.

    We don't win the WWII without the Alan Turing.
    MI5, MI6 and the KGB.

    Question is, what happened to the Oxford spy ring? Were they all caught, or were none caught?
    The rumour is that that the Cambridge spy ring was a cover to infiltrate the KGB, whereas the Oxford spy ring were a bunch of traitors that betrayed The United Kingdom, so it was covered up.
    That was the irony -- the Cambridge spies were so good that the Russians were never really sure they were not double-agents.

    But the staggering ineptitude of MI6 in housing these traitors -- two of whom were more-or-less permanently drunk -- is, well, not entirely unprecedented: didn't MI5 employ a relative of an IRA commander?
    MI5 has had the holy grail of defectors, their coups de main, the head of the IRA's Nutting Squad and Oleg Gordievsky.

    How can youi ever tell which side double agents are really on?

    In practice they are on both sides.
  • YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited September 2017
    Nigelb said:

    Another cost of Brexit (given our governments' parsimony when it comes to research investment)...
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/education-41160914

    Superb double-think. Maybe the best yet.

    How many EU Universities are there in the top 20? How many French? How many German? How many Dutch? How many Italian?

    The ONLY University in continental Europe in the top 20 lies OUTSIDE the EU.

    How anyone could dispassionately look at that list and claim that it is supportive of the EU & its research objective agenda is beyond me.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,718

    So the Scots would hate me then?

    The battle to become Labour’s next leader in Scotland has been marred by claims of dirty tricks after opponents of one of the frontrunners claimed it could be disastrous to pick a privately educated Englishman.

    MSP Richard Leonard, an organiser for the GMB union for 20 years, is believed to be preparing to confirm his candidacy as the choice of the left after Kezia Dugdale unexpectedly quit last week.

    He would be the first Englishman to lead the Scottish party but some Labour opponents say his broad Yorkshire accent and private schooling would play badly among Scottish voters as the party tries to regain ground lost to the SNP after a spate of poor elections.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/english-row-in-scots-labour-race-tc8n9vxjs

    Typical Labour , always infighting , though Leonard did say they should not vote for his opponent as he was a millionaire. So we have private schoolboy versus private schoolboy millionaire, how very Labour.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681

    David Davis is obviously not a reader of PB lead articles.
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/905103541987139586

    Depends where you go, in Hartlepool, Knowsley, Barrow, Bishop Auckland, Barnsley and Coventry the answer may be sonewhat different
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,878

    Totally O/t but we do have cricket fans on here. Any comments on this story from the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/05/the-spin-carew-vilage-spirit-cricket about a team which, due to the vagaries of their leagues points system decalred at 18-1 to prevent their opponents getting enough bonus points to win the league.

    Didn't Lancashire famously declare for nothing in a one day match to avoid the risk that they'd lose the Sunday League if they lost heavily? (It being decided on net run rate in the event of a tie in points.)
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,344
    edited September 2017


    Is that a euphemism for Ugandan discussions?

    That's Netflix and Chill.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111

    PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.

    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
    I mean that is their sole purpose for existence, isn't it?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,344
    edited September 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    Totally O/t but we do have cricket fans on here. Any comments on this story from the Guardian https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/sep/05/the-spin-carew-vilage-spirit-cricket about a team which, due to the vagaries of their leagues points system decalred at 18-1 to prevent their opponents getting enough bonus points to win the league.

    Didn't Lancashire famously declare for nothing in a one day match to avoid the risk that they'd lose the Sunday League if they lost heavily? (It being decided on net run rate in the event of a tie in points.)
    Somerset and it was in the Benson and Hedges cup.
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    David Davis is obviously not a reader of PB lead articles.
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/905103541987139586

    He is sort of right in a limited way. The most vociferous anti-EU arguments I have heard have been from very left wing working class men. (Yes, all men.) These would also be active trade unionists and Labour Party activists. Think Denis Skinner. But that was a long time ago when I used to spend more time in factories. This kind of person is much less common nowadays, and there were never as many of them in the first place as some people suppose.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/montie/status/905097619671838726

    Don't worry, they'll grow up :p
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/benchu_/status/905087384106217473

    Brexit was never the answer to an economic question though, was it?
  • HYUFD said:

    And I thought I had been on a few bad dates.

    I recently took a girl I met on tinder to Nandos. We had a lovely evening, and enjoyed each others company very much. After our meal, we repaired back to my house for a bottle of wine and a scientology doccumentary.

    About an hour in to Louis Theroux and chill, my date got up to use the toilet. She returned with a panicked look in her eye, and told me she had something to tell me.

    "I went for a poo in your toilet", she told me "and it would not flush. I don't know why I did this, but I panicked", she continued "I reached into the toilet bowl, wrapped it in tissue paper, and threw it out of the window".

    I was understandably concerned, and told her we would go outside, bag up the offending poo in the garden, bin it, and pretend the whole sorry affair had never happened. Unfortunately, owing to a design quirk of my house, the toilet window does not in fact open to the garden, but instead into a narrow gap of about a foot and a half, seperated from the outside world by another (non-opening) double glazed window. It was into this twilight zone that my date had thrown her poo. Here are two photos to illustrate:

    As can be seen in the picture, the inside window opens at the top, into the gap that is seperated from the garden by a non-opening double-glazed window pane. Seeing only one solution, I messaged our house group-chat, and went upstairs to find a hammer and chisel to smash open the window.

    My date had other ideas.

    Being an amateur gymnast, she was convinced that she could reach into the window and pull the poo out, using the tried and tested "inside out blag as glove" technique. Unfortunately she couldn't reach. She climbed further in and had the same problem. Eventually I agreed to give her a boost up and into the window. She climbed in head first after her own turd, reached deeper into the window, bagged it up, and passed it out, over the top and back into the toilet from whence it came. She called out to me to help her climb out from the window, I grabbed her waist and I pulled. But she was stuck. Stuck fast. Try as we might, we could not remove her from the window. She was stuck fast, upside down in the gap....

    https://www.gofundme.com/9wvxt9-replacement-window

    On the subject of tinder dating, I ran across this the other day. Most of us blokes are not good enough it seems...

    https://twitter.com/SteveStuWill/status/903902395352080385
    Tinder is largely a hlookup app for good looking people, average or below average looking people looking for something longer term are better off with eharmony
    Sample size 27.

    As the author admits.

    An analysis of actual Tinder data stream would be more useful. I guess that is secret.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    Scott_P said:
    When have young people ever been conservative?

    As Churchill allegedly said 'if you are young and not a socialist you have no heart, if you are old and not a conservative you have no head!'
  • Mike Smithson says

    "The Salisbury Convention that the Lords should not stand in the way of a government implementing its manifesto commitments doesn’t apply ..........."

    But surely the Government IS implementing its manifesto commitments so the convention ought to still stand..

    I suspect Mike would argue that the manifesto did not receive a mandate - as DUP needed to form a government. This is a minority administration.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited September 2017
    Team Sky's protein powders up to scratch again...

    Chris Froome widens his lead with victory in stage 16's time trial

    http://www.bbc.com/sport/cycling/41162100
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    malcolmg said:

    So the Scots would hate me then?

    The battle to become Labour’s next leader in Scotland has been marred by claims of dirty tricks after opponents of one of the frontrunners claimed it could be disastrous to pick a privately educated Englishman.

    MSP Richard Leonard, an organiser for the GMB union for 20 years, is believed to be preparing to confirm his candidacy as the choice of the left after Kezia Dugdale unexpectedly quit last week.

    He would be the first Englishman to lead the Scottish party but some Labour opponents say his broad Yorkshire accent and private schooling would play badly among Scottish voters as the party tries to regain ground lost to the SNP after a spate of poor elections.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/english-row-in-scots-labour-race-tc8n9vxjs

    Typical Labour , always infighting , though Leonard did say they should not vote for his opponent as he was a millionaire. So we have private schoolboy versus private schoolboy millionaire, how very Labour.
    I hope it is not his Yorkshire accent causing the most distress to Scots.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    Haven't you heard... anything from the EU side is the gospel truth.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.
    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
    Voting against measures intended to give Mrs May dictatorial powers is hardly "trouble for trouble`s sake"
  • Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,762
    edited September 2017
    Scott_P said:
    What's happened to Monty? He was in everyone's favourite regional free-sheet yesterday, the London Evening Standard, being beastly to Theresa. After he left the Tory party because of Dave, I thought he'd have warmed to it again in its current incarnation, but clearly not.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    Scott_P said:
    Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capita outside the EU
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    When have young people ever been conservative?

    As Churchill allegedly said 'if you are young and not a socialist you have no heart, if you are old and not a conservative you have no head!'
    Those numbers are hardly disastrous. Between 39% and 60% of young people support the small c conservative options, proportions that will probably increase as they get older.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    Scott_P said:
    Yet a majority of young Britain's put freedom above equality and say the causes of crime are moral not social, almost half say Britain does more good than harm in the world and over a third want more Christianity
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    PClipp said:

    PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/905053913191251968

    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.
    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
    Voting against measures intended to give Mrs May dictatorial powers is hardly "trouble for trouble`s sake"
    Don't you think you are over-egging it somewhat?
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    When have young people ever been conservative?

    As Churchill allegedly said 'if you are young and not a socialist you have no heart, if you are old and not a conservative you have no head!'
    Those numbers are hardly disastrous. Between 39% and 60% of young people support the small c conservative options, proportions that will probably increase as they get older.
    It doesnt mean they will vote Conservative though, as the over 65's figures demonstrate.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,878
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capita outside the EU
    While Switzerland is a good compare, I think comparing Norway - with its massive oil & gas revenues - with the UK is unhelpful.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capita outside the EU
    While Switzerland is a good compare, I think comparing Norway - with its massive oil & gas revenues - with the UK is unhelpful.
    Norway maybe less so but we still have North Sea oil revenues
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    HYUFD said:

    And I thought I had been on a few bad dates.

    I recently took a girl I met on tinder to Nandos. We had a lovely evening, and enjoyed each others company very much. After our meal, we repaired back to my house for a bottle of wine and a scientology doccumentary.

    About an hour in to Louis Theroux and chill, my date got up to use the toilet. She returned with a panicked look in her eye, and told me she had something to tell me.

    "I went for a poo in your toilet", she told me "and it would not flush. I don't know why I did this, but I panicked", she continued "I reached into the toilet bowl, wrapped it in tissue paper, and threw it out of the window".

    I was understandably concerned, and told her we would go outside, bag up the offending poo in the garden, bin it, and pretend the whole sorry affair had never happened. Unfortunately, owing to a design quirk of my house, the toilet window does not in fact open to the garden, but instead into a narrow gap of about a foot and a half, seperated from the outside world by another (non-opening) double glazed window. It was into this twilight zone that my date had thrown her poo. Here are two photos to illustrate:

    As can be seen in the picture, the inside window opens at the top, into the gap that is seperated from the garden by a non-opening double-glazed window pane. Seeing only one solution, I messaged our house group-chat, and went upstairs to find a hammer and chisel to smash open the window.

    My date had other ideas.

    Being an amateur gymnast, she was convinced that she could reach into the window and pull

    https://www.gofundme.com/9wvxt9-replacement-window

    On the subject of tinder dating, I ran across this the other day. Most of us blokes are not good enough it seems...

    https://twitter.com/SteveStuWill/status/903902395352080385
    Tinder is largely a hlookup app for good looking people, average or below average looking people looking for something longer term are better off with eharmony
    Sample size 27.

    As the author admits.

    An analysis of actual Tinder data stream would be more useful. I guess that is secret.
    It may be as simple as most tinder users being male and not very fussy. Who looks at the mantlepiece when poking the fire?
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    When have young people ever been conservative?

    As Churchill allegedly said 'if you are young and not a socialist you have no heart, if you are old and not a conservative you have no head!'
    Those numbers are hardly disastrous. Between 39% and 60% of young people support the small c conservative options, proportions that will probably increase as they get older.
    Yes Monty is just on another whingeorama as he has been ever since IDS lost the leadership, young people were flocking to him of course!
  • Sean_F said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    When have young people ever been conservative?

    As Churchill allegedly said 'if you are young and not a socialist you have no heart, if you are old and not a conservative you have no head!'
    Those numbers are hardly disastrous. Between 39% and 60% of young people support the small c conservative options, proportions that will probably increase as they get older.
    I agree. I'm not too worried about that.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capita outside the EU
    I think you are implying Switzerland and Norway have higher GDP outside than they would in. We don't know that. In fact Swiss GDP growth picked up in relative terms after the EU bilaterals were implemented post-millennium.
  • Scott_P said:
    What's happened to Monty? He was in everyone's favourite regional free-sheet yesterday, the London Evening Standard, being beastly to Theresa. After he left the Tory party because of Dave, I thought he'd have warmed to it again in its current incarnation, but clearly not.
    He's criticised every Tory leader since IDS.

    His main complaint is that he's not in the inner circle.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/905053913191251968

    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.
    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
    Voting against measures intended to give Mrs May dictatorial powers is hardly "trouble for trouble`s sake"
    Don't you think you are over-egging it somewhat?
    Not at all. These are the "Henry VIII powers". Some of the top courtiers did not fare very well under Henry VIII, did they? Conservatives who voted Leave in order that our Parliament should take back power, should think twice about giving Mrs May these dictatorial powers. They are likely to be inherited by Mr Corbyn and his gang.
  • PClipp said:

    PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.
    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
    Voting against measures intended to give Mrs May dictatorial powers is hardly "trouble for trouble`s sake"
    Labour does not have a practical alternative proposal for adopting the EU laws into UK law.
  • Mike Smithson says

    "The Salisbury Convention that the Lords should not stand in the way of a government implementing its manifesto commitments doesn’t apply ..........."

    But surely the Government IS implementing its manifesto commitments so the convention ought to still stand..

    I suspect Mike would argue that the manifesto did not receive a mandate - as DUP needed to form a government. This is a minority administration.

    The DUP is not part of the government.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    David Davis is obviously not a reader of PB lead articles.
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/905103541987139586

    He is sort of right in a limited way. The most vociferous anti-EU arguments I have heard have been from very left wing working class men. (Yes, all men.) These would also be active trade unionists and Labour Party activists. Think Denis Skinner. But that was a long time ago when I used to spend more time in factories. This kind of person is much less common nowadays, and there were never as many of them in the first place as some people suppose.
    Only 25% of Labour voters support Brexit. Just because some of them maybe "working class men" does not give them 3 times as many votes as other Labour voters.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    PClipp said:

    RobD said:

    PClipp said:

    PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:

    twitter.com/jessicaelgot/status/905053913191251968

    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.
    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
    Voting against measures intended to give Mrs May dictatorial powers is hardly "trouble for trouble`s sake"
    Don't you think you are over-egging it somewhat?
    Not at all. These are the "Henry VIII powers". Some of the top courtiers did not fare very well under Henry VIII, did they? Conservatives who voted Leave in order that our Parliament should take back power, should think twice about giving Mrs May these dictatorial powers. They are likely to be inherited by Mr Corbyn and his gang.
    No, the powers expire.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681

    Scott_P said:
    What's happened to Monty? He was in everyone's favourite regional free-sheet yesterday, the London Evening Standard, being beastly to Theresa. After he left the Tory party because of Dave, I thought he'd have warmed to it again in its current incarnation, but clearly not.
    He's criticised every Tory leader since IDS.

    His main complaint is that he's not in the inner circle.
    Yes he and IDS are in the unique position amongst Tories of seeing their careers take a downward trajectory since IDS lost the leadership
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,681
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capita outside the EU
    I think you are implying Switzerland and Norway have higher GDP outside than they would in. We don't know that. In fact Swiss GDP growth picked up in relative terms after the EU bilaterals were implemented post-millennium.
    You could argue the same about Chip's figures claiming the benefits of EU membership
  • Mike Smithson says

    "The Salisbury Convention that the Lords should not stand in the way of a government implementing its manifesto commitments doesn’t apply ..........."

    But surely the Government IS implementing its manifesto commitments so the convention ought to still stand..

    I suspect Mike would argue that the manifesto did not receive a mandate - as DUP needed to form a government. This is a minority administration.
    The government is the government that got a majority of British MPs working with the party of Northern Ireland that got a majority of Northern Irish MPs.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capita outside the EU
    I think you are implying Switzerland and Norway have higher GDP outside than they would in. We don't know that. In fact Swiss GDP growth picked up in relative terms after the EU bilaterals were implemented post-millennium.
    The same implication Chu made for all the other states inside the EU. :p
  • The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants
  • RecidivistRecidivist Posts: 4,679

    PClipp said:

    PClipp said:

    Scott_P said:
    Sounds as though Labour are falling in behind the Lib Dems. Not before time, either.
    Labour just concocting a reason to vote against the government to cause trouble for troubles sake.
    Voting against measures intended to give Mrs May dictatorial powers is hardly "trouble for trouble`s sake"
    Labour does not have a practical alternative proposal for adopting the EU laws into UK law.
    surbiton said:

    David Davis is obviously not a reader of PB lead articles.
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/905103541987139586

    He is sort of right in a limited way. The most vociferous anti-EU arguments I have heard have been from very left wing working class men. (Yes, all men.) These would also be active trade unionists and Labour Party activists. Think Denis Skinner. But that was a long time ago when I used to spend more time in factories. This kind of person is much less common nowadays, and there were never as many of them in the first place as some people suppose.
    Only 25% of Labour voters support Brexit. Just because some of them maybe "working class men" does not give them 3 times as many votes as other Labour voters.
    I agree entirely. It's just that there is a very strong anti-EU thread in one of the strands of Labour support. They haven't given the Labour Party as much trouble as the Tory Euroskeptics have, but they are still there. Incidentally I think the people who thought that Europe was an issue that would lead working class voters into the Conservative fold didn't really realise that a lot of those folk might well hate Brussels but they hate the Tories even more.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p
  • The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    If this is in any way accurate a cliff edge Brexit is nailed on.

  • RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p
    I particularly enjoyed this bit of the Guardian's account:

    [The government's] proposals to end the protection of the ECJ for the rights of EU nationals to bring non-EU family members to Britain, to end the use of EU national identity cards instead of passports at the UK border, and the extension of Home Office registration powers are all potential major trouble spots in the Brexit negotiations.

    Since the EU keep telling us that we'll be a third-party country after Brexit, with no special relationship, I really can't see what potential there is for disagreement.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    If this is in any way accurate a cliff edge Brexit is nailed on.

    Note it was subject to approval, and pending negotiations with Brussels (although their idea of negotiation seems to be sticking to their position and not changing whatsoever).
  • RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

  • Off-topic:

    At 21.00 on BBC Two this evening there's a program about New Space, hosted by Brian Cox. It should be interesting, but there seems a rather interesting conflict of interest that I'm surprised the BBC hasn't picked up on. The program apparently features Virgin Galactic strongly (and for little reason, given that company's abject failure to fly), and the program is being produced by a company that has a director called ... Sam Branson.

    Yep, Branson's son. I hope the program doesn't become a puff-piece for Virgin Galactic, as they're the least interesting New Space company.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,878
    HYUFD said:

    rcs1000 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capita outside the EU
    While Switzerland is a good compare, I think comparing Norway - with its massive oil & gas revenues - with the UK is unhelpful.
    Norway maybe less so but we still have North Sea oil revenues
    We import more than half a million barrels of oil per day. Norway exports one and a half million barrels per day.

    That's a pretty massive difference. (Especially given that there are 13x more Brits than Norwegians. And I haven't even mentioned LNG.)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140

    RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    I'm not sure I see the problem. That study can be used to set quotas etc.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    If this is in any way accurate a cliff edge Brexit is nailed on.

    Why are we bothering with the negotiations with the EU ? We should go straight to Hard Brexit and I see no point waiting until March 2019.
  • RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    I'm not sure I see the problem. That study can be used to set quotas etc.

    The problem is that the government has developed a position before knowing whether it will be harmful or not tot he UKL economy.
  • RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    You might almost say that there are unrealistic expectations in the EU27 about the consequences of their own intransigence, about which they need to be educated.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,878
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    I'm not sure I see the problem. That study can be used to set quotas etc.
    I must admit, while I'm very happy with the government setting points based systems, I'm very unhappy with the government doing "per industry" or "per job" quotas. That seems like a recipe for having the government being three years behind actual conditions on the ground.

    Much better, surely, to have a simple market based system, where people pay to be resident, which would largely eliminate low-skilled immigration, and would not distort price signals.
  • How to get on with your neighbours, part 1:

    "I want travellers to live on my land and hope they ruin Cambridgeshire village"

    http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/travellers-cambridgeshire-land-racing-live-13573704
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    You might almost say that there are unrealistic expectations in the EU27 about the consequences of their own intransigence, about which they need to be educated.
    What consequences should they be worried about ? Like strawberries will not be picked in East Anglia. Maybe, the government thinks PhD holders would pick them.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    I'm not sure I see the problem. That study can be used to set quotas etc.

    The problem is that the government has developed a position before knowing whether it will be harmful or not tot he UKL economy.
    The durations/numbers can all be adjusted based on that report, but the overarching theme of ending freedom of movement probably won't be.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    HYUFD said:

    David Davis is obviously not a reader of PB lead articles.
    https://twitter.com/faisalislam/status/905103541987139586

    Depends where you go, in Hartlepool, Knowsley, Barrow, Bishop Auckland, Barnsley and Coventry the answer may be sonewhat different
    Sorry HYUFD, the nativist out vote only stretches so far in these constituencies, as evidenced by your failure to capture any of them despite May's laudably quixotic focus on them in the campaign. I reckon you've topped out now.

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    surbiton said:

    RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    You might almost say that there are unrealistic expectations in the EU27 about the consequences of their own intransigence, about which they need to be educated.
    What consequences should they be worried about ? Like strawberries will not be picked in East Anglia. Maybe, the government thinks PhD holders would pick them.
    That enormous hole in their budget for starters. ;)
  • RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    You might almost say that there are unrealistic expectations in the EU27 about the consequences of their own intransigence, about which they need to be educated.

    Not sure why. The EU27 will see a government that has no idea about the impact EU immigration has on the UK economy commissioning a report to find out and then deciding that it will not bother to wait for its findings before developing a policy designed to deter EU immigrants from coming to the UK.

  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2017
    surbiton said:

    What consequences should they be worried about ? Like strawberries will not be picked in East Anglia. Maybe, the government thinks PhD holders would pick them.

    The right of EU citizens to come and work here is very highly valued by the Visegrad countries. The dosh we pay towards the EU budget is very highly valued by both donor and recipient countries. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have quite got their heads around the idea that these cakes won't be available to be had or eaten if they are not prepared to discuss the post-Brexit relationship between the UK and the EU.
  • surbiton said:

    What consequences should they be worried about ? Like strawberries will not be picked in East Anglia. Maybe, the government thinks PhD holders would pick them.

    The right of EU citizens to come and work here is very highly valued by the Visigrad countries. The dosh we pay towards the EU budget is very highly valued by both donor and recipient countries. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have quite got their heads around the idea that these cakes won't be available to be had or eaten if they are not prepared to discuss the post-Brexit relationship between the UK and the EU.

    Of course - and there is a ready supply of UK labour ready to do the work that EU nationals will be deterred from doing. Again, we lose more than they do.

  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    surbiton said:

    RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    You might almost say that there are unrealistic expectations in the EU27 about the consequences of their own intransigence, about which they need to be educated.
    What consequences should they be worried about ? Like strawberries will not be picked in East Anglia. Maybe, the government thinks PhD holders would pick them.
    At least they'd be usefully employed then.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140
    felix said:

    surbiton said:

    RobD said:

    The Guardian says it has a leaked copy of the UK's position paper on immigration:

    https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/sep/05/leaked-document-reveals-uk-brexit-plan-to-deter-eu-immigrants

    More indications of the government's lack of preparation. :p

    It has prepared a position paper before getting the findings of the study it has asked for on the benefits or otherwise of EU immigration. Not sure how that indicates anything other than crass stupidity.

    You might almost say that there are unrealistic expectations in the EU27 about the consequences of their own intransigence, about which they need to be educated.
    What consequences should they be worried about ? Like strawberries will not be picked in East Anglia. Maybe, the government thinks PhD holders would pick them.
    At least they'd be usefully employed then.
    Oi :p
  • Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,822
    edited September 2017

    Of course - and there is a ready supply of UK labour ready to do the work that EU nationals will be deterred from doing. Again, we lose more than they do.

    No, we don't lose more than they do, or at least than the Visegrad countries do. The excessive level of EU immigration was always the strongest argument in favour of Brexit, indeed really the only one which made much sense. In any case, the government is only proposing to control it, not eliminate it. What on earth else should it do? That's kinda the idea of leaving the EU.

    It's regrettable, of course, that our EU friends didn't listen when David Cameron asked nicely for some modest changes which would have helped. But they didn't.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    HYUFD said:

    FF43 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Scott_P said:
    Switzerland and Norway both have higher GDP per capita outside the EU
    I think you are implying Switzerland and Norway have higher GDP outside than they would in. We don't know that. In fact Swiss GDP growth picked up in relative terms after the EU bilaterals were implemented post-millennium.
    You could argue the same about Chip's figures claiming the benefits of EU membership
    Strictly, yes, in terms of _knowledge_. However there is evidence to suggest countries may be better off in the system. There are specific reasons for thinking this but it isn't definite. I haven't read Ben Chu's piece.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    edited September 2017
    Evening Saboteurs of PB.

    Anybody can a brief summary of what happened in Parliament today?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,344
    edited September 2017
    Asking for a friend, what's the plural of 'magnum opus'?

    I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, and I'm sure I'm disappointing my Latin tutor.
  • How to get on with your neighbours, part 1:

    "I want travellers to live on my land and hope they ruin Cambridgeshire village"

    http://www.cambridge-news.co.uk/news/cambridge-news/travellers-cambridgeshire-land-racing-live-13573704

    Revenge is a dish best served cold.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Evening Saboteurs of PB.

    Anybody can a brief summary of what happened in Parliament today?

    The opposition opposes what the government plans to do.
  • Of course - and there is a ready supply of UK labour ready to do the work that EU nationals will be deterred from doing. Again, we lose more than they do.

    No, we don't lose more than they do, or at least than the Visegrad countries do. The excessive level of EU immigration was always the strongest argument in favour of Brexit, indeed really the only one which made much sense. In any case, the government is only proposing to control it, not eliminate it. What on earth else should it do? That's kinda the idea of leaving the EU.

    It's regrettable, of course, that our EU friends didn't listen when David Cameron asked nicely for some modest changes which would have helped. But they didn't.

    As the government has conceded, we have absolutely no idea about the impact that EU immigration (and UK emigration to the EU, of course) has had on the UK economy. Despite this, it has decided that it wants to deter EU immigration at a time when we have full employment and significant reliance on EU nationals in many key industries. Quite rightly, our EU friends will conclude that the UK is clueless and will plan accordingly for the cliff edge Brexit that will hurt us much more than it will hurt them.

  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    Of course - and there is a ready supply of UK labour ready to do the work that EU nationals will be deterred from doing. Again, we lose more than they do.

    No, we don't lose more than they do, or at least than the Visegrad countries do. The excessive level of EU immigration was always the strongest argument in favour of Brexit, indeed really the only one which made much sense. In any case, the government is only proposing to control it, not eliminate it. What on earth else should it do? That's kinda the idea of leaving the EU.

    It's regrettable, of course, that our EU friends didn't listen when David Cameron asked nicely for some modest changes which would have helped. But they didn't.
    Quite. Some Social Security changes that the Germans wanted too and he would have won the referendum. The refusal to engage with a British PM facing a referendum persuaded me that the EU will be better when it reforms was not a rational position.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    It's regrettable, of course, that our EU friends didn't listen when David Cameron asked nicely for some modest changes which would have helped. But they didn't.

    Do you have any evidence to support your statement that David Cameron "spoke nicely" to our friends in the EU? Most of his time in office he was an arrogant B---- towards people he looked down on. It might have helped the British cause if he had spoken nicely to people all the time he was prime minister.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,140

    Asking for a friend, what's the plural of 'magnum opus'?

    I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, and I'm sure I'm disappointing my Latin tutor.

    We can't be having two AV threads this week, can we? :o:D:o
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    Of course - and there is a ready supply of UK labour ready to do the work that EU nationals will be deterred from doing. Again, we lose more than they do.

    No, we don't lose more than they do, or at least than the Visegrad countries do. The excessive level of EU immigration was always the strongest argument in favour of Brexit, indeed really the only one which made much sense. In any case, the government is only proposing to control it, not eliminate it. What on earth else should it do? That's kinda the idea of leaving the EU.

    It's regrettable, of course, that our EU friends didn't listen when David Cameron asked nicely for some modest changes which would have helped. But they didn't.
    For someone who was so pro-Remain, you have had a radical change of heart. Could it be that your leader is now pro-Leave ?
  • GIN1138 said:

    Evening Saboteurs of PB.

    Anybody can a brief summary of what happened in Parliament today?

    The opposition opposes what the government plans to do.

    And everyone laughed at David Davis when he claimed that nobody said the Brexit negotiations would be easy.

  • DavidL said:

    Of course - and there is a ready supply of UK labour ready to do the work that EU nationals will be deterred from doing. Again, we lose more than they do.

    No, we don't lose more than they do, or at least than the Visegrad countries do. The excessive level of EU immigration was always the strongest argument in favour of Brexit, indeed really the only one which made much sense. In any case, the government is only proposing to control it, not eliminate it. What on earth else should it do? That's kinda the idea of leaving the EU.

    It's regrettable, of course, that our EU friends didn't listen when David Cameron asked nicely for some modest changes which would have helped. But they didn't.
    Quite. Some Social Security changes that the Germans wanted too and he would have won the referendum. The refusal to engage with a British PM facing a referendum persuaded me that the EU will be better when it reforms was not a rational position.
    Me too, it along with a powerful argument from Michael Gove swung me from Remain to Leave.

    Cameron's renegotiation failure laid clear that reforming the EU was not viable. To be fair the EU never showed any interest in being reformed in the way we wanted it to.

    The only choice was leave and control our own destiny or be passengers along for the ride in the EU's vision of the future - which is quite clearly not our own.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,878

    surbiton said:

    What consequences should they be worried about ? Like strawberries will not be picked in East Anglia. Maybe, the government thinks PhD holders would pick them.

    The right of EU citizens to come and work here is very highly valued by the Visegrad countries. The dosh we pay towards the EU budget is very highly valued by both donor and recipient countries. Unfortunately, they don't seem to have quite got their heads around the idea that these cakes won't be available to be had or eaten if they are not prepared to discuss the post-Brexit relationship between the UK and the EU.
    They get it.

    They also get that they benefit from a last minute deal, while we benefit from the deal being agreed now.

    Now, in a win-win scenario, they recognise that a good long-term relationship is in both our interests, and that this isn't about trying to grab every last shred of advantage.

    The problem is that this is more like a divorce settlement, where even if the estranged partners would both benefit from working together for the good of the children (citizens), there is far too much bitterness for either side to work particularly constructively.

    On our side, I think we got the initial tone in the months following the referendum completely wrong. We should have a done a better job of saying "it's not you, it's me". On their side, the big problem is that electoral cycles aren't exactly encouraging nuance.
  • Same old conversation tonight with the remainers and leavers stuck in their own positions.

    As far as I am concerned whatever will be, will be, and life is too short to be fighting the referendum month after month.

    However, the significant news today is that Nicola (at last) is going to use her tax raising/reducing powers. Will be interesting to see how different tax rates influence the debate on tax and how the Scots take on the rest of the UK either in higher or lower taxes
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439

    Same old conversation tonight with the remainers and leavers stuck in their own positions.

    As far as I am concerned whatever will be, will be, and life is too short to be fighting the referendum month after month.

    But what would PB find to talk about? :D
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    Asking for a friend, what's the plural of 'magnum opus'?

    I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, and I'm sure I'm disappointing my Latin tutor.

    I would have said magnum opera. But I think some say opi. Hey, it's been 40 years.
  • GIN1138 said:

    Same old conversation tonight with the remainers and leavers stuck in their own positions.

    As far as I am concerned whatever will be, will be, and life is too short to be fighting the referendum month after month.

    But what would PB find to talk about? :D
    The fluid dynamics of sheep?
    https://twitter.com/Rainmaker1973/status/904593854644539392
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,344
    edited September 2017
    DavidL said:

    Asking for a friend, what's the plural of 'magnum opus'?

    I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, and I'm sure I'm disappointing my Latin tutor.

    I would have said magnum opera. But I think some say opi. Hey, it's been 40 years.
    It's magna opera, though I did like this suggestion,

    https://twitter.com/wsctb/status/905132574770647040
  • AlanbrookeAlanbrooke Posts: 25,712
    DavidL said:

    Asking for a friend, what's the plural of 'magnum opus'?

    I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, and I'm sure I'm disappointing my Latin tutor.

    I would have said magnum opera. But I think some say opi. Hey, it's been 40 years.
    magna opera

    magnum is only every singular
  • GIN1138 said:

    Same old conversation tonight with the remainers and leavers stuck in their own positions.

    As far as I am concerned whatever will be, will be, and life is too short to be fighting the referendum month after month.

    But what would PB find to talk about? :D
    Thats true. How about Jacob becoming the next political cult figure
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    DavidL said:

    Of course - and there is a ready supply of UK labour ready to do the work that EU nationals will be deterred from doing. Again, we lose more than they do.

    No, we don't lose more than they do, or at least than the Visegrad countries do. The excessive level of EU immigration was always the strongest argument in favour of Brexit, indeed really the only one which made much sense. In any case, the government is only proposing to control it, not eliminate it. What on earth else should it do? That's kinda the idea of leaving the EU.

    It's regrettable, of course, that our EU friends didn't listen when David Cameron asked nicely for some modest changes which would have helped. But they didn't.
    Quite. Some Social Security changes that the Germans wanted too and he would have won the referendum. The refusal to engage with a British PM facing a referendum persuaded me that the EU will be better when it reforms was not a rational position.
    Me too, it along with a powerful argument from Michael Gove swung me from Remain to Leave.

    Cameron's renegotiation failure laid clear that reforming the EU was not viable. To be fair the EU never showed any interest in being reformed in the way we wanted it to.

    The only choice was leave and control our own destiny or be passengers along for the ride in the EU's vision of the future - which is quite clearly not our own.
    They are on a different path. As I was saying this morning the EU will move forward much faster now we are not moaning and groaning on the sidelines slowing everything down. It's been like this for 25 years and both sides are getting bored and frustrated. We were right to leave. If the EU could get over the jilted John stage they would see we have done them a favour.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402

    Same old conversation tonight with the remainers and leavers stuck in their own positions.

    As far as I am concerned whatever will be, will be, and life is too short to be fighting the referendum month after month.

    However, the significant news today is that Nicola (at last) is going to use her tax raising/reducing powers. Will be interesting to see how different tax rates influence the debate on tax and how the Scots take on the rest of the UK either in higher or lower taxes

    Do you think the government should aim to retain the customs union and single market access and as far as possible current third country trade deals for the medium term and on EU rules and terms? Or do you think we should move quickly to make a clean and total break and let the chips fall where they may? The first is supported by about half of Conservatives and most of everybody else. The second by the other half of Conservatives. To me that has been the interesting question since the referendum.
  • DavidLDavidL Posts: 54,215

    DavidL said:

    Asking for a friend, what's the plural of 'magnum opus'?

    I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, and I'm sure I'm disappointing my Latin tutor.

    I would have said magnum opera. But I think some say opi. Hey, it's been 40 years.
    magna opera

    magnum is only every singular
    Yeah ok.

    One of my pals was asked something by a Sheriff and replied "ok".

    "Ok? What sort of language is that for my Court?" asked the Sheriff.
    Quick as a flash my pal replied, "My Lord, I believe it comes from the Latin okeydocky".
  • surbiton said:

    For someone who was so pro-Remain, you have had a radical change of heart. Could it be that your leader is now pro-Leave ?

    I haven't changed my view at all.
  • Any predictions for May's surprise on the 21st?

    - A rehash of Lancaster House with added aggression?
    - A major shift on the long term goal towards staying in the single market? (Based on the leaked Home Office papers this seems impossible.)
    - A dramatic move on Northern Ireland? Perhaps announcing a request for special status or even calling a border poll.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Asking for a friend, what's the plural of 'magnum opus'?

    I'm having a crisis of faith at the moment, and I'm sure I'm disappointing my Latin tutor.

    I thought the whole point of a magnum opus is that there can only ever be one (per person)
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