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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Body In Number 10. Solving the mystery of Theresa May’s re

SystemSystem Posts: 12,259
edited September 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » The Body In Number 10. Solving the mystery of Theresa May’s replacement

In their own way, Agatha Christie novels are sublime works of art.  Complaining that they lack plausible characterisation or profound social commentary is as silly as complaining that you can’t enjoy the landscapes in a Bridget Riley: that’s not what they’re trying to do.  Mrs Christie successfully provided briskly written puzzles set in a comforting world where her readers would like to live.  She fairly set out all the facts yet still managed to surprise them with her resolution of them, leaving them feeling satisfied rather than cheated.  Very few writers achieve their aims anything like as completely.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,401
    Fun read. Thanks for the chuckle.
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    Not first... Unlike LEAVE
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    edited September 2017
    Interesting piece AL.

    I read today that Dominic Rabb and Michael Gove have formed an alliance to get Rabb into pole position to succeed Mrs May.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,657
    Before Brexit in government Davis

    After Brexit in government Boris

    Before Brexit in opposition JRM

    After Brexit in opposition JRM or Priti Patel
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    HYUFD said:

    Before Brexit in government Davis

    After Brexit in government Boris

    Before Brexit in opposition JRM

    After Brexit in opposition JRM or Priti Patel

    JRM would be a fun LOTO against PM Jezza. :D
  • GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 22,439
    FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Who would the Brexit negotiation dream team be if we weren't stuck with DD who looks like a half pissed pub landlord trying to do his VAT return? I reckon Brown (autistic savant who revels in this type of boring detail as does a swine in its own make) and Mandelson (scheming sociopath who knows one end of Avenue Louise from the other) would have been good.

    Starmer and Mandleson would do a sterling job.

    Mind you, it would be fairly hard to do less well than the current muppets.
    Starmer's position is we should stay permanently in the Single Market and Customs Union but be able to control EU migration and make our own trade deals. It is a position borne out of utter ignorance. Either that or it is completely dishonest. Take your pick because those are the only two choices.
    I know which one I suspect? ;)
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,657
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Before Brexit in government Davis

    After Brexit in government Boris

    Before Brexit in opposition JRM

    After Brexit in opposition JRM or Priti Patel

    JRM would be a fun LOTO against PM Jezza. :D
    Boris as PM too
  • GIN1138 said:

    FPT

    Dura_Ace said:

    Who would the Brexit negotiation dream team be if we weren't stuck with DD who looks like a half pissed pub landlord trying to do his VAT return? I reckon Brown (autistic savant who revels in this type of boring detail as does a swine in its own make) and Mandelson (scheming sociopath who knows one end of Avenue Louise from the other) would have been good.

    Starmer and Mandleson would do a sterling job.

    Mind you, it would be fairly hard to do less well than the current muppets.
    Starmer's position is we should stay permanently in the Single Market and Customs Union but be able to control EU migration and make our own trade deals. It is a position borne out of utter ignorance. Either that or it is completely dishonest. Take your pick because those are the only two choices.
    I know which one I suspect? ;)
    Well quite.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    edited September 2017
    GIN1138 said:

    I know which one I suspect? ;)

    As opposed to the Government position that we should enjoy all of the benefits of being in the Single Market and Customs Union but be able to control EU migration and make our own trade deals. It is a position borne out of utter ignorance. Either that or it is completely dishonest. Take your pick because those are the only two choices.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I know which one I suspect? ;)

    As opposed to the Government position that we should enjoy all of the benefits of being in the Single Market and Customs Union but be able to control EU migration and make our own trade deals. It is a position borne out of utter ignorance. Either that or it is completely dishonest. Take your pick because those are the only two choices.
    I think the difference is that Labour and Starmer could square the circle, being very similar to other Europeans politically, while DD is merely a massive tit.
  • JonathanJonathan Posts: 21,764
    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Before Brexit in government Davis

    After Brexit in government Boris

    Before Brexit in opposition JRM

    After Brexit in opposition JRM or Priti Patel

    JRM would be a fun LOTO against PM Jezza. :D
    Sorry what television programme is this? Sounds like a cracking black comedy / dystopian farce.
  • Boris is the one who does not fit Miss Marple's analysis. The case against Boris is that he is unreliable, inconsistent and plainly out of his depth even as Foreign Secretary. The gilt has come off his gingerbread; he is a busted flush, a lay.

    Except Boris has one special quality unique among the contenders. He is a proven vote-winner. He beat a charismatic incumbent to become mayor of our Labour-leaning capital, and then repeated the trick. If the Conservatives have lost an election or even if, before an election, Labour has a large poll lead, the party may well remember what happened last time when its personality-free leader lost her majority, and turn to its one star.

    Labour had a five point lead in the last thread.
  • Scott_P said:

    GIN1138 said:

    I know which one I suspect? ;)

    As opposed to the Government position that we should enjoy all of the benefits of being in the Single Market and Customs Union but be able to control EU migration and make our own trade deals. It is a position borne out of utter ignorance. Either that or it is completely dishonest. Take your pick because those are the only two choices.
    Given that the Government has said we should leave both the Customs Union and the Single Market it is clear that, as usual, you are talking bollocks. Funny that one of the few posts you make that is not repeating someone else's words is basically a lie.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Or Theresa May might find herself obliged to call an election, given her non-majority, and lose.

    And what if she was to win such an election?
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    Given that the Government has said we should leave both the Customs Union and the Single Market it is clear that, as usual, you are talking bollocks.

    And once again you made a comment without apparently reading what I wrote

    "the Government position that we should enjoy all of the benefits of being in the Single Market and Customs Union"

    They have said we should leave, but that we should enjoy all of the benefits of being in the Single Market and Customs Union. They want no hard border in Ireland, and no tariffs or non-tariff barriers elsewhere.

    Cake. eat it.

    The government's position is ignorant, or cynical.

    And the Brexiteers are increasingly angry that they have failed to convince the people who told them it would be a disaster that they have were wrong...
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,657
    edited September 2017

    Boris is the one who does not fit Miss Marple's analysis. The case against Boris is that he is unreliable, inconsistent and plainly out of his depth even as Foreign Secretary. The gilt has come off his gingerbread; he is a busted flush, a lay.

    Except Boris has one special quality unique among the contenders. He is a proven vote-winner. He beat a charismatic incumbent to become mayor of our Labour-leaning capital, and then repeated the trick. If the Conservatives have lost an election or even if, before an election, Labour has a large poll lead, the party may well remember what happened last time when its personality-free leader lost her majority, and turn to its one star.

    Labour had a five point lead in the last thread.

    Boris also polled best with the public in last month's Survation. He also has all the charisma and populism May did not, albeit with less of the seriousness. Once Brexit talks are complete he has a real shot.

    UKIP were up 3% on the general election in the poll in the previous thread giving Labour a 5 point lead and Survation had Boris polling by far the best with UKIP voters.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    @LazyBoyWilliams: @negotiationguru @jk_rowling I can't believe how the people who want to remain are making David Davis not be very good at negotiating. What amazing power they hold.
  • I see this thread has already descended into the same old same old...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I'm not sure I understand why the EU have adopted this negotiating strategy - assuming they really want a deal.

    Effectively they are saying "give us X billion or you don't get a trade deal". This is pretty meaningless because if there is no trade deal there will be no payment above the legal minimum.

    Surely a better approach would be to negotiate an FTA and then say "if you want this shiny wonderful deal you need to pay us X billion"
  • Mr. Urquhart, can always go read my post-race analysis :)
  • Scott_P said:

    Given that the Government has said we should leave both the Customs Union and the Single Market it is clear that, as usual, you are talking bollocks.

    And once again you made a comment without apparently reading what I wrote

    "the Government position that we should enjoy all of the benefits of being in the Single Market and Customs Union"

    They have said we should leave, but that we should enjoy all of the benefits of being in the Single Market and Customs Union. They want no hard border in Ireland, and no tariffs or non-tariff barriers elsewhere.

    Cake. eat it.

    The government's position is ignorant, or cynical.

    And the Brexiteers are increasingly angry that they have failed to convince the people who told them it would be a disaster that they have were wrong...
    Keep thinking that Scott. It will make the shock all the greater for you once we are out.
  • Charles said:

    I'm not sure I understand why the EU have adopted this negotiating strategy - assuming they really want a deal.

    Effectively they are saying "give us X billion or you don't get a trade deal". This is pretty meaningless because if there is no trade deal there will be no payment above the legal minimum.

    Surely a better approach would be to negotiate an FTA and then say "if you want this shiny wonderful deal you need to pay us X billion"

    You obviously haven't been properly educated by Mr Barnier yet...
  • I see this thread has already descended into the same old same old...

    It is Remoaner denial that does it.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    tlg86 said:

    Or Theresa May might find herself obliged to call an election, given her non-majority, and lose.

    And what if she was to win such an election?

    If she wins, she stays on.

    Not very likely though!
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Scott_P said:
    Jeering at the incompetence of the Brexiteers is one of the few political pleasures left.

    As the Russian proverb puts it "My house is burning down, I may as well warm my hands"
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited September 2017
    .
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274

    tlg86 said:

    Or Theresa May might find herself obliged to call an election, given her non-majority, and lose.

    And what if she was to win such an election?

    If she wins, she stays on.

    Not very likely though!
    Well, someone would still be next Conservative leader and probably the next PM too. I was just wondering if it might change the lay of the land.

  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited September 2017
    @AlastairMeeks

    Great header! I reckon it was Colonel Mustard in the Billiard room with the lead piping.

    Thought you might enjoy this letter from the New European* which seems to have pinched your idea:

    https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/903654314253721600

    *increasingly becoming a very good read, with a broad range of articles suitable for citizens of nowhere.
  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,406
    I imagine the BBC get these letters for almost every politics presenter on television.
    I think they'll know where to file it.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,868
    edited September 2017
    "I reckon it’s at least a 90% chance that Theresa May is replaced as Prime Minister by another Conservative"

    I don't. If the Conservative Party cannot get its Brexit Bill through the House of Commons, then there has to be a 90% chance of another election. Theresa May may not be the Conservative leader at that election, but she would stay in Number 10 until its completion.

    Indeed, my central scenario is that the David Davis comes back with a workable deal from Brussels. But that a combination of DUP rebels (who feel the border is insufficiently "frictionless", Conservative EU-philes and a Labour Party with virtually no rebels) see the Bill defeated.

    I do not believe this would lead to the government of the day shrugging its shoulders and saying, wistfully, "oh well, WTO it its". I believe it would lead to an election.

    Now, what's the chance of this outcome? I'd say at least 20%, possibly as much as 30%. I think Labour Leavers (chief among them Jeremy Corbyn) care far more about grabbing the crown to implement their socialist revolution that about about this country's relationship with the EU. They are oppositionists by instinct. They will oppose whatever Ms May produces.

    Now, if we assume it's a 50% chance that election sees Corbyn as PM, and it's a 25% chance of an early election. Then that's a 12.5% chance of Corbyn as PM plus the chance that May stays until 2022.
  • TomsToms Posts: 2,478
    edited September 2017
    Running with J. K. Rowling's "If nobody mentions the smoke, the house won't be on fire.", let's agree with Pangloss that this is the best of all possible worlds.

    P/S the Vuelta is approaching the end of a crucial stage.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,508
    edited September 2017
    GIN1138 said:

    Interesting piece AL.

    I read today that Dominic Rabb and Michael Gove have formed an alliance to get Rabb into pole position to succeed Mrs May.

    Raab would be mad to trust Gove.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Indeed, my central scenario is that the David Davis comes back with a workable deal from Brussels. But that a combination of DUP rebels (who feel the border is insufficiently "frictionless", Conservative EU-philes and a Labour Party with virtually no rebels) see the Bill defeated.

    I think your sequencing is back to front or I'm misunderstanding which Bill you're talking about. How is Davis going to come back with a deal before the Bill goes through the Commons?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,717

    I see this thread has already descended into the same old same old...

    Dire on here nowadays, same old Tory fanny boys/girls trying to convince themselves they are not losers for supporting the muppets that are ruining the country, meanwhile jezza and his halfwits await in the wings trying to make out he is not a dinosaur.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    @AlastairMeeks

    Great header! I reckon it was Colonel Mustard in the Billiard room with the lead piping.

    Thought you might enjoy this letter from the New European* which seems to have pinched your idea:

    htps://twitter.com/damocrat/status/903654314253721600

    *increasingly becoming a very good read, with a broad range of articles suitable for citizens of nowhere.

    In other words: "let's drastically rig the voting rules since we can't win under universal suffrage despite having the best arguments since Euclid's proof that the number of primes is infinite, and the most hilariously inept bunch of opponents since the Keystone Kops."

    Not as easy as it looks, this satire stuff.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    rcs1000 said:

    "I reckon it’s at least a 90% chance that Theresa May is replaced as Prime Minister by another Conservative"

    I don't. If the Conservative Party cannot get its Brexit Bill through the House of Commons, then there has to be a 90% chance of another election. Theresa May may not be the Conservative leader at that election, but she would stay in Number 10 until its completion.

    Indeed, my central scenario is that the David Davis comes back with a workable deal from Brussels. But that a combination of DUP rebels (who feel the border is insufficiently "frictionless", Conservative EU-philes and a Labour Party with virtually no rebels) see the Bill defeated.

    I do not believe this would lead to the government of the day shrugging its shoulders and saying, wistfully, "oh well, WTO it its". I believe it would lead to an election.

    Now, what's the chance of this outcome? I'd say at least 20%, possibly as much as 30%. I think Labour Leavers (chief among them Jeremy Corbyn) care far more about grabbing the crown to implement their socialist revolution that about about this country's relationship with the EU. They are oppositionists by instinct. They will oppose whatever Ms May produces.

    Now, if we assume it's a 50% chance that election sees Corbyn as PM, and it's a 25% chance of an early election. Then that's a 12.5% chance of Corbyn as PM plus the chance that May stays until 2022.

    I think it's a given that whatever the government proposes, Labour will vote against it. I don't foresee any difficulties with the DUP (a hard border barely affects their voters) so it all comes down to potential Conservative rebels.

    I'm surprised that only Kenneth Clarke voted against A50, because that was the best chance to derail Brexit. The ability for Conservative rebels to alter the Brexit that the government comes up with is now very limited. They're stuck with having voted for A50, and having run on the Conservatives' manifesto. If they vote against the Brexit bill, they're ending their careers.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,868

    rcs1000 said:

    Indeed, my central scenario is that the David Davis comes back with a workable deal from Brussels. But that a combination of DUP rebels (who feel the border is insufficiently "frictionless", Conservative EU-philes and a Labour Party with virtually no rebels) see the Bill defeated.

    I think your sequencing is back to front or I'm misunderstanding which Bill you're talking about. How is Davis going to come back with a deal before the Bill goes through the Commons?
    Deal comes back from Brussels.
    Deal is put into a Bill.
    Bill is defeated.
    Government falls.
    ????
    Profit.
  • Toms said:

    Running with J. K. Rowling's "If nobody mentions the smoke, the house won't be on fire.", let's agree with Pangloss that this is the best of all possible worlds.

    P/S the Vuelta is approaching the end of a crucial stage.

    Indeed. Brilliant finale to today's stage. Completely engrossing. I'd love Yates to do it and only 6k left
  • Nicola Sturgeon will scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay rises when she sets out her legislative plans for the coming year, it is understood.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41141373
  • @AlastairMeeks

    Great header! I reckon it was Colonel Mustard in the Billiard room with the lead piping.

    Thought you might enjoy this letter from the New European* which seems to have pinched your idea:

    https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/903654314253721600

    *increasingly becoming a very good read, with a broad range of articles suitable for citizens of nowhere.

    Of course the corollary of that is that supporters of the EU should have been paying all the financial contributions the UK has made to the EU for forty plus years.

    Though the yearning that some Remainers show for a recession is always amusing - the "if I'm not playing I hope the team loses" mentality.
  • rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Indeed, my central scenario is that the David Davis comes back with a workable deal from Brussels. But that a combination of DUP rebels (who feel the border is insufficiently "frictionless", Conservative EU-philes and a Labour Party with virtually no rebels) see the Bill defeated.

    I think your sequencing is back to front or I'm misunderstanding which Bill you're talking about. How is Davis going to come back with a deal before the Bill goes through the Commons?
    Deal comes back from Brussels.
    Deal is put into a Bill.
    Bill is defeated.
    Government falls.
    ????
    Profit.
    Why should the deal be put to Parliament if they think it will be voted down.

    Don't get me wrong, I think it should be put to Parliament. That is the right thing to do no matter what the outcome.

    But short of a vote of no confidence I can see no way that Parliament can force the Government to put the bill to the House. They have already had the vote they needed to complete the actual basic process of Brexit.


  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    They have already had the vote they needed to complete the actual basic process of Brexit.

    They haven't had the not-so Great Repeal Bill
  • "I'm writing ...............to suggest......."

    Strong stuff !
  • Nicola Sturgeon will scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay rises when she sets out her legislative plans for the coming year, it is understood.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41141373

    No mention of how they plan to pay for it....
  • Nicola Sturgeon will scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay rises when she sets out her legislative plans for the coming year, it is understood.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41141373

    No mention of how they plan to pay for it....
    In modern day politics, nobody worries about trivial things like that.
  • Ishmael_Z said:

    @AlastairMeeks

    Great header! I reckon it was Colonel Mustard in the Billiard room with the lead piping.

    Thought you might enjoy this letter from the New European* which seems to have pinched your idea:

    htps://twitter.com/damocrat/status/903654314253721600

    *increasingly becoming a very good read, with a broad range of articles suitable for citizens of nowhere.

    In other words: "let's drastically rig the voting rules since we can't win under universal suffrage despite having the best arguments since Euclid's proof that the number of primes is infinite, and the most hilariously inept bunch of opponents since the Keystone Kops."

    Not as easy as it looks, this satire stuff.
    You know how much the Remoaners hate this democracy lark.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    Ishmael_Z said:

    @AlastairMeeks

    Great header! I reckon it was Colonel Mustard in the Billiard room with the lead piping.

    Thought you might enjoy this letter from the New European* which seems to have pinched your idea:

    htps://twitter.com/damocrat/status/903654314253721600

    *increasingly becoming a very good read, with a broad range of articles suitable for citizens of nowhere.

    In other words: "let's drastically rig the voting rules since we can't win under universal suffrage despite having the best arguments since Euclid's proof that the number of primes is infinite, and the most hilariously inept bunch of opponents since the Keystone Kops."

    Not as easy as it looks, this satire stuff.
    I don't follow the argument for disenfranchisement. Nobody was disenfranchised, prior to the Brexit referendum.
  • Nicola Sturgeon will scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay rises when she sets out her legislative plans for the coming year, it is understood.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41141373

    No mention of how they plan to pay for it....
    Why didn't she do it years ago ?
  • Scott_P said:

    They have already had the vote they needed to complete the actual basic process of Brexit.

    They haven't had the not-so Great Repeal Bill
    I know but that won't stop Brexit. All it will mean if defeated is that there is legal chaos after Brexit. The actual process of leaving the EU does not have to go before Parliament (although again I think it should)
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    I know but that won't stop Brexit. All it will mean if defeated is that there is legal chaos after Brexit. The actual process of leaving the EU does not have to go before Parliament (although again I think it should)

    That depends if it is a confidence motion. If the government can't get the bill passed, election? Corbyn? Revoke Article 50?
  • Scott_P said:

    I know but that won't stop Brexit. All it will mean if defeated is that there is legal chaos after Brexit. The actual process of leaving the EU does not have to go before Parliament (although again I think it should)

    That depends if it is a confidence motion. If the government can't get the bill passed, election? Corbyn? Revoke Article 50?
    No idea but as I say it doesn't actually stop us leaving the EU. Nothing short of a specific VOte of No Confidence seems like it can do that.
  • Nicola Sturgeon will scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay rises when she sets out her legislative plans for the coming year, it is understood.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41141373

    No mention of how they plan to pay for it....
    Why didn't she do it years ago ?
    Why did the SNP vote down a Labour proposal to do it THIS year?
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    Scott_P said:

    I know but that won't stop Brexit. All it will mean if defeated is that there is legal chaos after Brexit. The actual process of leaving the EU does not have to go before Parliament (although again I think it should)

    That depends if it is a confidence motion. If the government can't get the bill passed, election? Corbyn? Revoke Article 50?
    If it's made a motion of confidence, all Conservative and DUP MP's will vote with the government.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,868
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "I reckon it’s at least a 90% chance that Theresa May is replaced as Prime Minister by another Conservative"

    I don't. If the Conservative Party cannot get its Brexit Bill through the House of Commons, then there has to be a 90% chance of another election. Theresa May may not be the Conservative leader at that election, but she would stay in Number 10 until its completion.

    Indeed, my central scenario is that the David Davis comes back with a workable deal from Brussels. But that a combination of DUP rebels (who feel the border is insufficiently "frictionless", Conservative EU-philes and a Labour Party with virtually no rebels) see the Bill defeated.

    I do not believe this would lead to the government of the day shrugging its shoulders and saying, wistfully, "oh well, WTO it its". I believe it would lead to an election.

    Now, what's the chance of this outcome? I'd say at least 20%, possibly as much as 30%. I think Labour Leavers (chief among them Jeremy Corbyn) care far more about grabbing the crown to implement their socialist revolution that about about this country's relationship with the EU. They are oppositionists by instinct. They will oppose whatever Ms May produces.

    Now, if we assume it's a 50% chance that election sees Corbyn as PM, and it's a 25% chance of an early election. Then that's a 12.5% chance of Corbyn as PM plus the chance that May stays until 2022.

    I think it's a given that whatever the government proposes, Labour will vote against it. I don't foresee any difficulties with the DUP (a hard border barely affects their voters) so it all comes down to potential Conservative rebels.

    I'm surprised that only Kenneth Clarke voted against A50, because that was the best chance to derail Brexit. The ability for Conservative rebels to alter the Brexit that the government comes up with is now very limited. They're stuck with having voted for A50, and having run on the Conservatives' manifesto. If they vote against the Brexit bill, they're ending their careers.
    I disagree with you on both the DUP, and the number of potential Conservative rebels. The way I look at it is this: lots of people are in favour of Brexit in general, but my balk at a specific implementation of it.

    Take Northern Ireland. The DUP are Eurosceptic, and should be natural, long-term allies of Brexit. But they also know that Northern Ireland's economy is tied to the Republic every bit as much as it is to Great Britain. They know that if they are seen to have caused an economic downturn that saw Unionists lose their jobs, then they will lose votes to the UUP. They want the UK removed from the EU, but they want the CTA and cross border trade to continue as it was before. If they see the prospect of economic disruption in Northern Ireland, then they there has to be a serious chance they withdraw support.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,868
    Sean_F said:

    Scott_P said:

    I know but that won't stop Brexit. All it will mean if defeated is that there is legal chaos after Brexit. The actual process of leaving the EU does not have to go before Parliament (although again I think it should)

    That depends if it is a confidence motion. If the government can't get the bill passed, election? Corbyn? Revoke Article 50?
    If it's made a motion of confidence, all Conservative and DUP MP's will vote with the government.
    Confidence votes don't work like that under the FTPA.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,868
    Charles said:

    I'm not sure I understand why the EU have adopted this negotiating strategy - assuming they really want a deal.

    Effectively they are saying "give us X billion or you don't get a trade deal". This is pretty meaningless because if there is no trade deal there will be no payment above the legal minimum.

    Surely a better approach would be to negotiate an FTA and then say "if you want this shiny wonderful deal you need to pay us X billion"

    They've done it this way around, I assume, because under your scenario, Britain would be able to say to (say) a big US investment bank "Hey! You don't need to move staff abroad, because here's the deal on financial services."

    This way around, because the EU will only capitulate at the last minute, many firms will already have moved staff to EU locations.

    It's pretty cynical stuff. But, ultimately, the EU wants - and needs - a deal. So, they will give us almost everything we want. But only at 11:59 on the very last day.
  • rcs1000 said:

    Take Northern Ireland. The DUP are Eurosceptic, and should be natural, long-term allies of Brexit. But they also know that Northern Ireland's economy is tied to the Republic every bit as much as it is to Great Britain. They know that if they are seen to have caused an economic downturn that saw Unionists lose their jobs, then they will lose votes to the UUP. They want the UK removed from the EU, but they want the CTA and cross border trade to continue as it was before. If they see the prospect of economic disruption in Northern Ireland, then they there has to be a serious chance they withdraw support.

    They're in the fairly large category of people who like the EU in practice but not in theory.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,722
    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    "I reckon it’s at least a 90% chance that Theresa May is replaced as Prime Minister by another Conservative"

    I don't. If the Conservative Party cannot get its Brexit Bill through the House of Commons, then there has to be a 90% chance of another election. Theresa May may not be the Conservative leader at that election, but she would stay in Number 10 until its completion.

    Indeed, my central scenario is that the David Davis comes back with a workable deal from Brussels. But that a combination of DUP rebels (who

    I do not believe this would lead to the government of the day shrugging its shoulders and saying, wistfully, "oh well, WTO it its". I believe it would lead to an election.

    Now, what's the chance of this outcome? I'd say at least 20%, possibly as much as 30%. I think Labour Leavers (chief among them Jeremy Corbyn) care far more about grabbing the crown to implement their socialist revolution that about about this country's relationship with the EU. They are oppositionists by instinct. They will oppose whatever Ms May produces.

    Now, if we assume it's a 50% chance that election sees Corbyn as PM, and it's a 25% chance of an early election. Then that's a 12.5% chance of Corbyn as PM plus the chance that May stays until 2022.

    I'm surprised that only Kenneth Clarke voted against A50, because that was the best chance to derail Brexit. The ability for Conservative rebels to alter the Brexit that the government comes up with is now very limited. They're stuck with having voted for A50, and having run on the Conservatives' manifesto. If they vote against the Brexit bill, they're ending their careers.
    I disagree with you on both the DUP, and the number of potential Conservative rebels. The way I look at it is this: lots of people are in favour of Brexit in general, but my balk at a specific implementation of it.

    Take Northern Ireland. The DUP are Eurosceptic, and should be natural, long-term allies of Brexit. But they also know that Northern Ireland's economy is tied to the Republic every bit as much as it is to Great Britain. They know that if they are seen to have caused an economic downturn that saw Unionists lose their jobs, then they will lose votes to the UUP. They want the UK removed from the EU, but they want the CTA and cross border trade to continue as it was before. If they see the prospect of economic disruption in Northern Ireland, then they there has to be a serious chance they withdraw support.
    The parts of Northern Ireland that are closely linked to the Irish Republic, economically, are largely Nationalist-voting. That's not to say there aren't any Unionists living in those areas, but the large majority live in the North and East.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,657

    Nicola Sturgeon will scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay rises when she sets out her legislative plans for the coming year, it is understood.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41141373

    So would Boris if he succeeds May as PM
  • https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/03/planet-tory-radio-signal-earth-weaker-brexit

    Pity a party that has the likes of Ruth Davidson, Amber Rudd and Matt Hancock in its ranks and yet is taking seriously the idea of Jacob Rees-Mogg as May’s prospective successor. What would once have been an amiable joke is now a measure of the Conservatives’ drift into an orbit of their own creation, the radio signal from Earth growing weaker by the day.

    Yes, it really is that bad. To be absolutely sure that Labour forms the next government, all the Tories have to do is carry on as they are.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,868
    Sean_F said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Sean_F said:

    I'm surprised that only Kenneth Clarke voted against A50, because that was the best chance to derail Brexit. The ability for Conservative rebels to alter the Brexit that the government comes up with is now very limited. They're stuck with having voted for A50, and having run on the Conservatives' manifesto. If they vote against the Brexit bill, they're ending their careers.

    I disagree with you on both the DUP, and the number of potential Conservative rebels. The way I look at it is this: lots of people are in favour of Brexit in general, but my balk at a specific implementation of it.

    Take Northern Ireland. The DUP are Eurosceptic, and should be natural, long-term allies of Brexit. But they also know that Northern Ireland's economy is tied to the Republic every bit as much as it is to Great Britain. They know that if they are seen to have caused an economic downturn that saw Unionists lose their jobs, then they will lose votes to the UUP. They want the UK removed from the EU, but they want the CTA and cross border trade to continue as it was before. If they see the prospect of economic disruption in Northern Ireland, then they there has to be a serious chance they withdraw support.
    The parts of Northern Ireland that are closely linked to the Irish Republic, economically, are largely Nationalist-voting. That's not to say there aren't any Unionists living in those areas, but the large majority live in the North and East.
    The level of economic integration between Northern Ireland and the Republic has increased significantly since the Good Friday agreement. While the UK as a whole has less than 50% of its exports going to the EU, I think Northern Ireland is close to 80%, and the bulk of that goes to the Republic. There are a great many Unionists who stand to lose out from a deal which slows the passage of goods and services across the border.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    I'm not sure I understand why the EU have adopted this negotiating strategy - assuming they really want a deal.

    Effectively they are saying "give us X billion or you don't get a trade deal". This is pretty meaningless because if there is no trade deal there will be no payment above the legal minimum.

    Surely a better approach would be to negotiate an FTA and then say "if you want this shiny wonderful deal you need to pay us X billion"


    It's pretty cynical stuff. But, ultimately, the EU wants - and needs - a deal. So, they will give us almost everything we want. But only at 11:59 on the very last day.
    I don't think so, The EU is much better prepared for No Deal than we are.

    WTO means pretty low tariffs on everything bar some agriculture, while working well to keep our devices out.
  • 619619 Posts: 1,784

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/03/planet-tory-radio-signal-earth-weaker-brexit

    Pity a party that has the likes of Ruth Davidson, Amber Rudd and Matt Hancock in its ranks and yet is taking seriously the idea of Jacob Rees-Mogg as May’s prospective successor. What would once have been an amiable joke is now a measure of the Conservatives’ drift into an orbit of their own creation, the radio signal from Earth growing weaker by the day.

    Yes, it really is that bad. To be absolutely sure that Labour forms the next government, all the Tories have to do is carry on as they are.

    Good article.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,717

    Nicola Sturgeon will scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay rises when she sets out her legislative plans for the coming year, it is understood.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41141373

    No mention of how they plan to pay for it....
    Out of their budget you fool, they don't borrow like the UK does , but do have to pay UK's interest.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,717

    Nicola Sturgeon will scrap the 1% cap on public sector pay rises when she sets out her legislative plans for the coming year, it is understood.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-41141373

    No mention of how they plan to pay for it....
    Why didn't she do it years ago ?
    Why did the SNP vote down a Labour proposal to do it THIS year?
    It was the usual half baked Labour crap mumbo jumbo stupidity
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067

    @AlastairMeeks

    Great header! I reckon it was Colonel Mustard in the Billiard room with the lead piping.

    Thought you might enjoy this letter from the New European* which seems to have pinched your idea:

    https://twitter.com/damocrat/status/903654314253721600

    *increasingly becoming a very good read, with a broad range of articles suitable for citizens of nowhere.

    Of course the corollary of that is that supporters of the EU should have been paying all the financial contributions the UK has made to the EU for forty plus years.

    Though the yearning that some Remainers show for a recession is always amusing - the "if I'm not playing I hope the team loses" mentality.
    And that Leavers are not allowed to benefit from medical advances through EU funded research.
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    malcolmg said:

    they don't borrow like the UK does .

    You would think that such an ardent supporter of the Scottish Government would at least pretend to have some clue what they do...

    The Scottish Government will use new borrowing powers "to the max", the finance secretary has said.

    Derek Mackay made the comments while being scrutinised by MSPs at the finance committee on Wednesday at Holyrood.

    From this April, the Scottish Government can borrow up to a maximum of £450m each year.


    https://stv.tv/news/politics/1377805-finance-secretary-i-will-use-borrowing-powers-to-the-max/
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,657
    edited September 2017

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/sep/03/planet-tory-radio-signal-earth-weaker-brexit

    Pity a party that has the likes of Ruth Davidson, Amber Rudd and Matt Hancock in its ranks and yet is taking seriously the idea of Jacob Rees-Mogg as May’s prospective successor. What would once have been an amiable joke is now a measure of the Conservatives’ drift into an orbit of their own creation, the radio signal from Earth growing weaker by the day.

    Yes, it really is that bad. To be absolutely sure that Labour forms the next government, all the Tories have to do is carry on as they are.

    Labour bypassed David Miliband, Yvette Cooper, Andy Burnham and Liz Kendall for Jeremy Corbyn?
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,717
    Scott_P said:

    malcolmg said:

    they don't borrow like the UK does .

    You would think that such an ardent supporter of the Scottish Government would at least pretend to have some clue what they do...

    The Scottish Government will use new borrowing powers "to the max", the finance secretary has said.

    Derek Mackay made the comments while being scrutinised by MSPs at the finance committee on Wednesday at Holyrood.

    From this April, the Scottish Government can borrow up to a maximum of £450m each year.


    https://stv.tv/news/politics/1377805-finance-secretary-i-will-use-borrowing-powers-to-the-max/
    Not a £100 billion a year you dullard , a poxy £450 million. Even someone as stupid as you should be able to tell the difference.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    I have a doubt - does Chris Webster (age 54) know anything? Best estimate used to be 3% loss to be made up, or am I lost.
  • PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Adonis seems to have smile suitable for a gargoyle...
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    rcs1000 said:

    Charles said:

    I'm not sure I understand why the EU have adopted this negotiating strategy - assuming they really want a deal.

    Effectively they are saying "give us X billion or you don't get a trade deal". This is pretty meaningless because if there is no trade deal there will be no payment above the legal minimum.

    Surely a better approach would be to negotiate an FTA and then say "if you want this shiny wonderful deal you need to pay us X billion"

    They've done it this way around, I assume, because under your scenario, Britain would be able to say to (say) a big US investment bank "Hey! You don't need to move staff abroad, because here's the deal on financial services."

    This way around, because the EU will only capitulate at the last minute, many firms will already have moved staff to EU locations.

    It's pretty cynical stuff. But, ultimately, the EU wants - and needs - a deal. So, they will give us almost everything we want. But only at 11:59 on the very last day.
    Possibly why they are all opening small offices (with promises from the UK govt) but have an option to scale up if need be.

    I don't seem that many bankers clamouring to move to Paris, while Frankfurt bombs as an idea*. Dublin and Luxembourg are for back office staff and Amsterdam, isn't for work.

    * too soon?
  • twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/904377075049656322

    Trump might be running out red ties shortly....
  • Well he did say he would bring back jobs to America....
  • Apart from the fact he is a certified loon?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Depends whether a shortage of iPhones is a problem or not
  • That's certainly an interesting statement from Trump.
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138
    HYUFD said:

    GIN1138 said:

    HYUFD said:

    Before Brexit in government Davis
    After Brexit in government Boris
    Before Brexit in opposition JRM
    After Brexit in opposition JRM or Priti Patel

    JRM would be a fun LOTO against PM Jezza. :D
    Boris as PM too
    Only Tories are thinking about fun. The rest of us are suffering already, and starting to feel the pain.

    Are there any serious politicians in the ranks of the Alistair`s suspects?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited September 2017

    twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/904377075049656322

    Is this before or after he has unleashed fire and fury unlike the world has ever seen?
  • Jonathan said:
    Absolutely fatuous.
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,868
    South Korea, of course, "does business" with North Korea. It also has an FTA with the United States, and is home to many US troops.
  • rcs1000 said:

    South Korea, of course, "does business" with North Korea. It also has an FTA with the United States, and is home to many US troops.
    Trump is threatening to tear up the FTA with South Korea at the moment. He probably thinks this whole situation is a way of putting pressure on them to give the US a better 'deal'.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited September 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    South Korea, of course, "does business" with North Korea. It also has an FTA with the United States, and is home to many US troops.
    I seemed to remember reading they even have joint ventures with factories on the border that employ both North and South Koreans.

    I am guessing old Drump didn't confer with General Kelly before this tweet.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    edited September 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    South Korea, of course, "does business" with North Korea. It also has an FTA with the United States, and is home to many US troops.
    According to Al Jazeera, N Korea's main trading partners are China, India, Pakistan, Thailand, Russia and the Philippines. If the man thinks he can just stop trade with those countries he is even more mad than I thought.
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,401
    Charles said:

    I'm not sure I understand why the EU have adopted this negotiating strategy - assuming they really want a deal.

    Effectively they are saying "give us X billion or you don't get a trade deal". This is pretty meaningless because if there is no trade deal there will be no payment above the legal minimum.

    Surely a better approach would be to negotiate an FTA and then say "if you want this shiny wonderful deal you need to pay us X billion"

    The exit fee won't be tied to an FTA because an FTA won't be negotiated as part of the Article 50 talks. It will come much later, if at all. The EU won't accept contingent payment because the whole point of this exercise for them is to get a specific and enforceable obligation from the UK. The Withdrawal Agreement will include that the UK agrees to do, including paying the EU a sum of money, and things the EU agrees to do, which probably include some kind of term limited continuity arrangement and may include access to certain EU programmes on a longer basis. What the EU offers will be partly what they want to include anyway and partly driven by our offer to them. But there won't be any If X Then Y conditionality.

    Would we agree a significant sum of money to the EU without an FTA? I think, yes. Firstly because Leavers wanting a successful Brexit and Remainers wanting a Brexit that is no more damaging than it needs be have a common interest in avoiding a chaotic exit that would be the consequence of leaving without a deal with the EU. Secondly, not paying only puts off the evil hour. At some point we will want to deal with the EU and the first thing they will ask for is the exit fee. And the third reason is that we, counter-intuitively, will want to pay the EU lots of money. We don't have a lot of leverage, ie things they are interested in that we can offer. Money is one leverage we do have. If we are paying them useful amounts of money, particularly if we cover their budget deficit so they don't have to go through a fraught rebudgeting process, we remove a problem for them. Removing problems for people makes you interesting to them.

    Given all that, wouldn't it be better to agree quickly to pay up and then maximise your leverage?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited September 2017

    rcs1000 said:

    South Korea, of course, "does business" with North Korea. It also has an FTA with the United States, and is home to many US troops.
    According to Al Jazeera, N Korea's main trading partners are China, India, Pakistan, Thailand, Russia and the Philippines. If the man thinks he can just stop trade with those countries he is even more mad than I thought.
    Is that over the counter, or under the counter trade? From the Panorama programme the other week, it was stated that for many years N Korea's big income comes from have front companies that are supposed Chinese or Malaysian, but are actually just ways to sell stuff produced in N. Korean factories.
  • The Sun should read pb. Some contributors pointed out soon after the election that Nick & Fiona were being scapegoated to protect Lynton Crosby.
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,367
    Barnier intends to teach us a lesson, no doubt "pour encourager les autres." How will we respond?

    Either 'Come and have a go if you think you're hard enough,' or the Remain way - 'Please don't hurt us anymore us, sir, we are even not worth of your contempt.'
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    rcs1000 said:

    "I reckon it’s at least a 90% chance that Theresa May is replaced as Prime Minister by another Conservative"

    I don't. If the Conservative Party cannot get its Brexit Bill through the House of Commons, then there has to be a 90% chance of another election. Theresa May may not be the Conservative leader at that election, but she would stay in Number 10 until its completion.

    Indeed, my central scenario is that the David Davis comes back with a workable deal from Brussels. But that a combination of DUP rebels (who feel the border is insufficiently "frictionless", Conservative EU-philes and a Labour Party with virtually no rebels) see the Bill defeated.

    I do not believe this would lead to the government of the day shrugging its shoulders and saying, wistfully, "oh well, WTO it its". I believe it would lead to an election.

    Now, what's the chance of this outcome? I'd say at least 20%, possibly as much as 30%. I think Labour Leavers (chief among them Jeremy Corbyn) care far more about grabbing the crown to implement their socialist revolution that about about this country's relationship with the EU. They are oppositionists by instinct. They will oppose whatever Ms May produces.

    Now, if we assume it's a 50% chance that election sees Corbyn as PM, and it's a 25% chance of an early election. Then that's a 12.5% chance of Corbyn as PM plus the chance that May stays until 2022.

    I sort of follow this (though I think a few Tory rebels and perhaps DUP abstain rather than vote against, leading to the bill passing by 5-15), but don't see why an election is triggered?
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    I'm not sure I understand why the EU have adopted this negotiating strategy - assuming they really want a deal.

    Effectively they are saying "give us X billion or you don't get a trade deal". This is pretty meaningless because if there is no trade deal there will be no payment above the legal minimum.

    Surely a better approach would be to negotiate an FTA and then say "if you want this shiny wonderful deal you need to pay us X billion"

    The exit fee won't be tied to an FTA because an FTA won't be negotiated as part of the Article 50 talks. It will come much later, if at all. The EU won't accept contingent payment because the whole point of this exercise for them is to get a specific and enforceable obligation from the UK. The Withdrawal Agreement will include that the UK agrees to do, including paying the EU a sum of money, and things the EU agrees to do, which probably include some kind of term limited continuity arrangement and may include access to certain EU programmes on a longer basis. What the EU offers will be partly what they want to include anyway and partly driven by our offer to them. But there won't be any If X Then Y conditionality.

    Would we agree a significant sum of money to the EU without an FTA? I think, yes. Firstly because Leavers wanting a successful Brexit and Remainers wanting a Brexit that is no more damaging than it needs be have a common interest in avoiding a chaotic exit that would be the consequence of leaving without a deal with the EU. Secondly, not paying only puts off the evil hour. At some point we will want to deal with the EU and the first thing they will ask for is the exit fee. And the third reason is that we, counter-intuitively, will want to pay the EU lots of money. We don't have a lot of leverage, ie things they are interested in that we can offer. Money is one leverage we do have. If we are paying them useful amounts of money, particularly if we cover their budget deficit so they don't have to go through a fraught rebudgeting process, we remove a problem for them. Removing problems for people makes you interesting to them.

    Given all that, wouldn't it be better to agree quickly to pay up and then maximise your leverage?
    It makes sense to pay up if we get a valuable deal. If it doesn't include anything we want over the minimum (e.g. An FTA but it could be something else) then there's no point in paying a premium
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    HYUFD said:

    Boris is the one who does not fit Miss Marple's analysis. The case against Boris is that he is unreliable, inconsistent and plainly out of his depth even as Foreign Secretary. The gilt has come off his gingerbread; he is a busted flush, a lay.

    Except Boris has one special quality unique among the contenders. He is a proven vote-winner. He beat a charismatic incumbent to become mayor of our Labour-leaning capital, and then repeated the trick. If the Conservatives have lost an election or even if, before an election, Labour has a large poll lead, the party may well remember what happened last time when its personality-free leader lost her majority, and turn to its one star.

    Labour had a five point lead in the last thread.

    Boris also polled best with the public in last month's Survation. He also has all the charisma and populism May did not, albeit with less of the seriousness. Once Brexit talks are complete he has a real shot.

    UKIP were up 3% on the general election in the poll in the previous thread giving Labour a 5 point lead and Survation had Boris polling by far the best with UKIP voters.
    UKIP were actually up 2.2% .
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited September 2017
    FF43 said:

    Charles said:

    I'm not sure I understand why the EU have adopted this negotiating strategy - assuming they really want a deal.

    Effectively they are saying "give us X billion or you don't get a trade deal". This is pretty meaningless because if there is no trade deal there will be no payment above the legal minimum.

    Surely a better approach would be to negotiate an FTA and then say "if you want this shiny wonderful deal you need to pay us X billion"

    The exit fee won't be tied to an FTA because an FTA won't be negotiated as part of the Article 50 talks...........

    Would we agree a significant sum of money to the EU without an FTA? I think, yes. Firstly because Leavers wanting a successful Brexit and Remainers wanting a Brexit that is no more damaging than it needs be have a common interest in avoiding a chaotic exit that would be the consequence of leaving without a deal with the EU. Secondly, not paying only puts off the evil hour. At some point we will want to deal with the EU and the first thing they will ask for is the exit fee. And the third reason is that we, counter-intuitively, will want to pay the EU lots of money. We don't have a lot of leverage, ie things they are interested in that we can offer....

    Given all that, wouldn't it be better to agree quickly to pay up and then maximise your leverage?
    Brexiters do not understand or want to understand a simple concept: that the trade deal for the EU with the UK is less important for them than the future integrity of the Union. They are determined not to hand UK separating terms which will be an incentive for others to try and emulate. Already, Poland is sounding bellicose.

    Britain is a trading nation. For us, everything boils down to pound, shilling and pence. We cannot conceive that any country [ or entity ] will accept some instability and loss of temporary income. Of course, per capita, Britain's loss will be far greater. Thankfully, we do not hear that dross anymore that the EU will let us be in the single market because they need us so badly. For many in the continent, the EU is a project, acceptable to almost everyone from centre-right to the centre-left and a bit more. Only the crazy nutters on the far right and the far, far left oppose the EU. Note even at the height of the Greek crisis, no party in Greece wanted to leave the EU or the Euro. For these countries, a division 2 country was playing in the premier league. I remember many here in PB were announcing the death of the Euro. It was £1 = €1.40 then. Today, it is £1= €1.09. Only one currency is imploding!

    Of course, in due course, we will agree an FTA. But don't hold your breath for it. It might take 7-10 years unless we are prepared to do a Norway and not to fall of the cliff.
This discussion has been closed.