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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,294
    Interesting stuff from Italy: Berlusconi is proposing that the country sets up a parallel currency that people - and the government - can pay for goods and services in. The idea is - effectively - these government IOUs become unanchored from the Euro, thus stimulating domestic demand.

    Longer-term, Berlusconi sees it as a way for Italy to smoothly remove itself from the Eurozone, without breaking its treaty obligations.

    Will it work?

    Well let's leave the politics out of it, and think only of the economics. The problem with a parallel currency is that people have to choose to use it. And if people think you are creating a currency so as to devalue it, then won't want to hold or accept it.

    Imagine you are the Italian government, and you insist that suppliers must accept New Lira in payments. Well, the question then arises of what the exchange rate is. Let's assume it starts off at 1,000 to 1. If the exchange rate stays there, then there is no benefit to the Italian economy, just inconvenience. On the other hand, if it moves to 1,100 to 1 after a few months, then employees, shops and restaraunts would just demand to be paid in Euros.

    Unless you forced Italian banks to mass convert the stock of savings and debt to Euros, then people would be wary about being paid in a currency that depreciated relative to their liabilities.

    And then there's the other problem. You would need to set up parallel bank accounts for everyone in the country. (A problem that does not exist if you leave the Eurozone, where you would have simply forced conversion.)

    So (and this is a personal view), a parallel currency can only succeed because people think it will hold its value better than the incumbent. That's why the Germans or the Dutch could successfully set up a parallel currency, and why people buy Bitcoin. I don't think it works for the New Lira.

    But I do think that this is a very important step for Italy in asking whether the Euro works for them. And I think people need to be aware that there are three political parties, accounting for 60% of the vote, who have varying degrees of Euroscepticism. (Although Beppe Grillo's Euroscepticism flips around like a hyperactive toddler with a TV remote.)
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,307
    2020 GOP primary poll

    Trump 57%
    Someone else 29%
    https://mobile.twitter.com/Politics_Polls/status/900447157597032448
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380

    I don't understand the militant (read aggressive, narcissistic and self satisfied) attitude of many of London's cyclists.

    At times I've wondered if they're looking for a fight.

    At others that I'm not surprised there are so many nasty accidents.

    I have a friend who's loosely involved with the Critical Mass cyclist movement (cf. http://times-up.org/critical-mass/what-critical-mass) As he describes it, they meet in large numbers at an agreed point and then set out to "own the streets", surging into thoroughfares i such numbers that motorists look on helplessly. He described with glee how they'd surged through a shopping complex as well. He's a Tory voter of the libertarian kind and I suggested to him that all this isn't very conservative behaviour, but he says they feel they're constantly pushed around and marginalised and need to assert themselves.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,118

    isam said:

    Alistair said:



    One thing I've only just learned about the case is that he switched his front wheel assembly (presumably for one with a brake) after the accident but police identified that was not kosher and recovered the front assembly he was using at the time of the accident.

    4.8 seconds between the woman stepping onto the road and the collision.

    That seems like quite a long time to be honest.

    Personally I feel more threatened in London by bikes than by cars, which may be irrational (my dad was knocked down by a bike and only had bruises) but reflects the fact the pavements are often involuntarily shared with bikes but virtually never with cars. The sense of alienation is increased by the militant attitude of some cyclists. I didn't feel it much in Denmark, where cycle paths are ubiquitous so there is little shared space.

    The real speed merchants seem to me to be motorbikes. On motorroads, I almost never see a moorbike that is doing less than about 90, and some are clearly above 100.

    Alistair said:



    One thing I've only just learned about the case is that he switched his front wheel assembly (presumably for one with a brake) after the accident but police identified that was not kosher and recovered the front assembly he was using at the time of the accident.

    4.8 seconds between the woman stepping onto the road and the collision.

    That seems like quite a long time to be honest.


    The real speed merchants seem to me to be motorbikes. On motorroads, I almost never see a moorbike that is doing less than about 90, and some are clearly above 100.
    As a regular cyclist, I still do about 100 km a week, I completely agree with the need to clamp down. When i am a pedestrian I deliberately walk in a manner that makes life difficult for the pavement cyclist coming towards me. I put my head down so don't make eye contact, walk faster and not in a consistent manner from either side of the pavement. My objective is to make it hard for the errant rider certainly forcing them to swerve and hopefully to stop. If others did this it would cut down the problem.

    I'm also getting annoyed with those on disabled scooters who in many case are worse than the cyclist.
    They do say "Show me the internet debating style and I'll show you the way a man walks down the street"!

    Well done on the 100km a week. I do about that, the best form of transport.
    I don't speak French.

    What's 100km in real money?
    I think its 62 and a half miles
  • Options
    I was just thinking europe has managed to go a fe days without a terrorist attack....

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4817436/Rotterdam-police-cancel-rock-gig-terror-threat.html
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    RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting stuff from Italy: Berlusconi is proposing that the country sets up a parallel currency that people - and the government - can pay for goods and services in. The idea is - effectively - these government IOUs become unanchored from the Euro, thus stimulating domestic demand.

    Longer-term, Berlusconi sees it as a way for Italy to smoothly remove itself from the Eurozone, without breaking its treaty obligations.

    Will it work?

    Well let's leave the politics out of it, and think only of the economics. The problem with a parallel currency is that people have to choose to use it. And if people think you are creating a currency so as to devalue it, then won't want to hold or accept it.

    Imagine you are the Italian government, and you insist that suppliers must accept New Lira in payments. Well, the question then arises of what the exchange rate is. Let's assume it starts off at 1,000 to 1. If the exchange rate stays there, then there is no benefit to the Italian economy, just inconvenience. On the other hand, if it moves to 1,100 to 1 after a few months, then employees, shops and restaraunts would just demand to be paid in Euros.

    Unless you forced Italian banks to mass convert the stock of savings and debt to Euros, then people would be wary about being paid in a currency that depreciated relative to their liabilities.

    And then there's the other problem. You would need to set up parallel bank accounts for everyone in the country. (A problem that does not exist if you leave the Eurozone, where you would have simply forced conversion.)

    So (and this is a personal view), a parallel currency can only succeed because people think it will hold its value better than the incumbent. That's why the Germans or the Dutch could successfully set up a parallel currency, and why people buy Bitcoin. I don't think it works for the New Lira.

    But I do think that this is a very important step for Italy in asking whether the Euro works for them. And I think people need to be aware that there are three political parties, accounting for 60% of the vote, who have varying degrees of Euroscepticism. (Although Beppe Grillo's Euroscepticism flips around like a hyperactive toddler with a TV remote.)

    Oddly enough one of the Estonian cyber-government types has been talking about Estonia launching it's own cryptocurrency in parallel to the euro.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,425
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    edited August 2017


    I have a friend who's loosely involved with the Critical Mass cyclist movement (cf. http://times-up.org/critical-mass/what-critical-mass) As he describes it, they meet in large numbers at an agreed point and then set out to "own the streets", surging into thoroughfares i such numbers that motorists look on helplessly. He described with glee how they'd surged through a shopping complex as well. He's a Tory voter of the libertarian kind and I suggested to him that all this isn't very conservative behaviour, but he says they feel they're constantly pushed around and marginalised and need to assert themselves.

    I'm not a cyclist but in Edinburgh from my observations cyclists are more sinned against than sinners. I've lost count of the number of grossly unsafe overtaking moves by drivers putting cyclists at risk.
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    isam said:

    Alistair said:



    One thing I've only just learned about the case is that he switched his front wheel assembly (presumably for one with a brake) after the accident but police identified that was not kosher and recovered the front assembly he was using at the time of the accident.

    4.8 seconds between the woman stepping onto the road and the collision.

    That seems like quite a long time to be honest.

    Personally I feel more threatened in London by bikes than by cars, which may be irrational (my dad was knocked down by a bike and only had bruises) but reflects the fact the pavements are often involuntarily shared with bikes but virtually never with cars. The sense of alienation is increased by the militant attitude of some cyclists. I didn't feel it much in Denmark, where cycle paths are ubiquitous so there is little shared space.

    The real speed merchants seem to me to be motorbikes. On motorroads, I almost never see a moorbike that is doing less than about 90, and some are clearly above 100.

    Alistair said:



    One thing I've only just learned about the case is that he switched his front wheel assembly (presumably for one with a brake) after the accident but police identified that was not kosher and recovered the front assembly he was using at the time of the accident.

    4.8 seconds between the woman stepping onto the road and the collision.

    That seems like quite a long time to be honest.


    The real speed merchants seem to me to be motorbikes. On motorroads, I almost never see a moorbike that is doing less than about 90, and some are clearly above 100.
    As a regular cyclist, I still do about 100 km a week, I completely agree with the need to clamp down. When i am a pedestrian I deliberately walk in a manner that makes life difficult for the pavement cyclist coming towards me. I put my head down so don't make eye contact, walk faster and not in a consistent manner from either side of the pavement. My objective is to make it hard for the errant rider certainly forcing them to swerve and hopefully to stop. If others did this it would cut down the problem.

    I'm also getting annoyed with those on disabled scooters who in many case are worse than the cyclist.
    They do say "Show me the internet debating style and I'll show you the way a man walks down the street"!

    Well done on the 100km a week. I do about that, the best form of transport.
    I don't speak French.

    What's 100km in real money?
    18 leagues
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,425
    edited August 2017

    I don't understand the militant (read aggressive, narcissistic and self satisfied) attitude of many of London's cyclists.

    At times I've wondered if they're looking for a fight.

    At others that I'm not surprised there are so many nasty accidents.

    I have a friend who's loosely involved with the Critical Mass cyclist movement (cf. http://times-up.org/critical-mass/what-critical-mass) As he describes it, they meet in large numbers at an agreed point and then set out to "own the streets", surging into thoroughfares i such numbers that motorists look on helplessly. He described with glee how they'd surged through a shopping complex as well. He's a Tory voter of the libertarian kind and I suggested to him that all this isn't very conservative behaviour, but he says they feel they're constantly pushed around and marginalised and need to assert themselves.
    I ride bikes, motorbikes & drive (& and of course am a pedestrian). Your friend is right up to the point of owning your own bit of the street, making it obvious to other vehicles that you're aware of them and you have a right to your piece of the road; this involves a lot of looking over your shoulder (life savers as they're called in your motorbike training) & keeping an idea in your head of what's around you which does become reflexive after a while. The flash mob 'own the streets' stuff sounds a bit wanky & counter productive to me.
  • Options

    isam said:

    Alistair said:



    One thing I've only just learned about the case is that he switched his front wheel assembly (presumably for one with a brake) after the accident but police identified that was not kosher and recovered the front assembly he was using at the time of the accident.

    4.8 seconds between the woman stepping onto the road and the collision.

    That seems like quite a long time to be honest.

    Personally I feel more threatened in London by bikes than by cars, which may be irrational (my dad was knocked down by a bike and only had bruises) but reflects the fact the pavements are often involuntarily shared with bikes but virtually never with cars. The sense of alienation is increased by the militant attitude of some cyclists. I didn't feel it much in Denmark, where cycle paths are ubiquitous so there is little shared space.

    The real speed merchants seem to me to be motorbikes. On motorroads, I almost never see a moorbike that is doing less than about 90, and some are clearly above 100.

    Alistair said:



    One thing I've only just learned about the case is that he switched his front wheel assembly (presumably for one with a brake) after the accident but police identified that was not kosher and recovered the front assembly he was using at the time of the accident.

    4.8 seconds between the woman stepping onto the road and the collision.

    That seems like quite a long time to be honest.


    The real speed merchants seem to me to be motorbikes. On motorroads, I almost never see a moorbike that is doing less than about 90, and some are clearly above 100.
    As a regular cyclist, I still do about 100 km a week, I completely agree with the need to clamp down. When i am a pedestrian I deliberately walk in a manner that makes life difficult for the pavement cyclist coming towards me. I put my head down so don't make eye contact, walk faster and not in a consistent manner from either side of the pavement. My objective is to make it hard for the errant rider certainly forcing them to swerve and hopefully to stop. If others did this it would cut down the problem.

    I'm also getting annoyed with those on disabled scooters who in many case are worse than the cyclist.
    They do say "Show me the internet debating style and I'll show you the way a man walks down the street"!

    Well done on the 100km a week. I do about that, the best form of transport.
    I don't speak French.

    What's 100km in real money?
    54 nautical miles - exactly, by some definitions.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,294
    Rhubarb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting stuff from Italy: Berlusconi is proposing that the country sets up a parallel currency that people - and the government - can pay for goods and services in. The idea is - effectively - these government IOUs become unanchored from the Euro, thus stimulating domestic demand.

    Longer-term, Berlusconi sees it as a way for Italy to smoothly remove itself from the Eurozone, without breaking its treaty obligations.

    Will it work?

    Well let's leave the politics out of it, and think only of the economics. The problem with a parallel currency is that people have to choose to use it. And if people think you are creating a currency so as to devalue it, then won't want to hold or accept it.

    Imagine you are the Italian government, and you insist that suppliers must accept New Lira in payments. Well, the question then arises of what the exchange rate is. Let's assume it starts off at 1,000 to 1. If the exchange rate stays there, then there is no benefit to the Italian economy, just inconvenience. On the other hand, if it moves to 1,100 to 1 after a few months, then employees, shops and restaraunts would just demand to be paid in Euros.

    Unless you forced Italian banks to mass convert the stock of savings and debt to Euros, then people would be wary about being paid in a currency that depreciated relative to their liabilities.

    And then there's the other problem. You would need to set up parallel bank accounts for everyone in the country. (A problem that does not exist if you leave the Eurozone, where you would have simply forced conversion.)

    So (and this is a personal view), a parallel currency can only succeed because people think it will hold its value better than the incumbent. That's why the Germans or the Dutch could successfully set up a parallel currency, and why people buy Bitcoin. I don't think it works for the New Lira.

    But I do think that this is a very important step for Italy in asking whether the Euro works for them. And I think people need to be aware that there are three political parties, accounting for 60% of the vote, who have varying degrees of Euroscepticism. (Although Beppe Grillo's Euroscepticism flips around like a hyperactive toddler with a TV remote.)

    Oddly enough one of the Estonian cyber-government types has been talking about Estonia launching it's own cryptocurrency in parallel to the euro.
    That's a currency expected to hold its value better than the Euro, and which comes with other advantages, so I can see why people would be attracted to it. I can't see who would *want* to hold new Italian Lira, given the official policy of the government would be to see it depreciate.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting stuff from Italy: Berlusconi is proposing that the country sets up a parallel currency that people - and the government - can pay for goods and services in. The idea is - effectively - these government IOUs become unanchored from the Euro, thus stimulating domestic demand.

    Longer-term, Berlusconi sees it as a way for Italy to smoothly remove itself from the Eurozone, without breaking its treaty obligations.

    Will it work?

    Well let's leave the politics out of it, and think only of the economics. The problem with a parallel currency is that people have to choose to use it. And if people think you are creating a currency so as to devalue it, then won't want to hold or accept it.

    Imagine you are the Italian government, and you insist that suppliers must accept New Lira in payments. Well, the question then arises of what the exchange rate is. Let's assume it starts off at 1,000 to 1. If the exchange rate stays there, then there is no benefit to the Italian economy, just inconvenience. On the other hand, if it moves to 1,100 to 1 after a few months, then employees, shops and restaraunts would just demand to be paid in Euros.

    Unless you forced Italian banks to mass convert the stock of savings and debt to Euros, then people would be wary about being paid in a currency that depreciated relative to their liabilities.

    And then there's the other problem. You would need to set up parallel bank accounts for everyone in the country. (A problem that does not exist if you leave the Eurozone, where you would have simply forced conversion.)

    So (and this is a personal view), a parallel currency can only succeed because people think it will hold its value better than the incumbent. That's why the Germans or the Dutch could successfully set up a parallel currency, and why people buy Bitcoin. I don't think it works for the New Lira.

    But I do think that this is a very important step for Italy in asking whether the Euro works for them. And I think people need to be aware that there are three political parties, accounting for 60% of the vote, who have varying degrees of Euroscepticism. (Although Beppe Grillo's Euroscepticism flips around like a hyperactive toddler with a TV remote.)


    Robert, what if the Italian government only paid for its contracts (not salaries) in this currency, at a premium to what the contract would be in Euros at the current exchange rate. The choice would not be to take Euros or the currency - it would be to bid on the work or not. And the fear of devaluation would make the holders of the currency want to spend it quickly, perhaps increasing the velocity of money in the economy. I guess the problem is that they would have to spend it with someone willing to take it ...

    Not saying it's a good idea - just trying to see what could be attractive about it ...
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Re disabled scooters:

    More than once when I've been walking along the pavement I've heard a "Beeb beeb" noise behind me and it's been someone on a disabled scooter wanting me to get out of the way. What is it about being on wheels that stops you just saying "excuse me" like a civilised human being?


    Or slowing down until it's safe to pass, as one would have to for other traffic?
  • Options
    Alistair said:


    I have a friend who's loosely involved with the Critical Mass cyclist movement (cf. http://times-up.org/critical-mass/what-critical-mass) As he describes it, they meet in large numbers at an agreed point and then set out to "own the streets", surging into thoroughfares i such numbers that motorists look on helplessly. He described with glee how they'd surged through a shopping complex as well. He's a Tory voter of the libertarian kind and I suggested to him that all this isn't very conservative behaviour, but he says they feel they're constantly pushed around and marginalised and need to assert themselves.

    I'm not a cyclist but in Edinburgh from my observations cyclists are more sinned against than sinners. I've lost count of the number of grossly unsafe overtaking moves by drivers putting cyclists at risk.
    Nick's comment about motorists "looking on helplessly" as cyclists "surge into thoroughfares" is indicative of the weird sense of entitlement that seems to consume many people when they get behind the wheel of a car. Why should a car driver not occasionally be expected to give way to cyclists? Why should cyclists not be permitted to ride in groups? The roads are there for all travellers, not just those who happen to be driving a car!
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    Alistair said:


    I have a friend who's loosely involved with the Critical Mass cyclist movement (cf. http://times-up.org/critical-mass/what-critical-mass) As he describes it, they meet in large numbers at an agreed point and then set out to "own the streets", surging into thoroughfares i such numbers that motorists look on helplessly. He described with glee how they'd surged through a shopping complex as well. He's a Tory voter of the libertarian kind and I suggested to him that all this isn't very conservative behaviour, but he says they feel they're constantly pushed around and marginalised and need to assert themselves.

    I'm not a cyclist but in Edinburgh from my observations cyclists are more sinned against than sinners. I've lost count of the number of grossly unsafe overtaking moves by drivers putting cyclists at risk.
    I'm both a cyclist and a motorist, not too mention a pedestrian.

    When I'm a cyclist I am considerate towards motorists, and I get very little trouble from them. Cyclists who are obstructive will find motorists have less tolerance towards them. The selfishness and obstructive behaviour of a few cyclists cause many problems, for themselves and costs in general.

    The problems with troublesome motorists are well known and long standing, to fast, in a rush and impolite.
  • Options
    rpjsrpjs Posts: 3,787
    edited August 2017

    philiph said:

    isam said:



    One thing I've only just learned about the case is that he switched his front wheel assembly (presumably for one with a brake) after the accident but police identified that was not kosher and recovered the front assembly he was using at the time of the accident.

    4.8 seconds between the woman stepping onto the road and the collision.

    That seems like quite a long time to be honest.

    Personally I feel more threatened in London by bikes than by cars, which may be irrational (my dad was knocked down by a bike and only had bruises) but reflects the fact the pavements are often involuntarily shared with bikes but virtually never with cars. The sense of alienation is increased by the militant attitude of some cyclists. I didn't feel it much in Denmark, where cycle paths are ubiquitous so there is little shared space.

    The real speed merchants seem to me to be motorbikes. On motorroads, I almost never see a moorbike that is doing less than about 90, and some are clearly above 100.


    They do say "Show me the internet debating style and I'll show you the way a man walks down the street"!

    Well done on the 100km a week. I do about that, the best form of transport.
    I don't speak French.

    What's 100km in real money?
    Soixante miles
    At least we don't have to worry about the mile falling to parity, unlike the pound.
    I've long felt we could have made metrication more palatable if we'd allowed "metric" approximations of customary units to have been used alongside true SI ones. In the same way that a French person can ask for "une livre" or a German "ein pfund" of something from a market stall and they'll get half a kilo of it, we could have simply set a date after which if someone asked for a pound of a commodity they would get a "metric pound", i.e. half a kilogramme. Similarly a "metric pint" would be half a litre (this works better with US pints admittedly) and a "metric yard" a metre. If really necessary you could even define a "metric inch of 2.5cm and a "metric foot" of 10cm. Yes, this would mean there'd be 10 "metric inches" to a "metric foot" and four "metric feet" to a "metric yard" but you wouldn't really be dealing with these convenience units for calculations, you'd do that in true SI units.

    And if you really wanted to be be brave, you could define a "metric mile" to be two kilometres and just legally redefine the MPH speed limits. You could even leave distance signs as they are and just give the proviso that they're advisory. I expect that many distance signs on roads are quite approximate anyway.
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    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    edited August 2017
    I guess very few non Italian companies would want to be paid in IOUs, so it could have the effect of reserving work for home grown companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Pound
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    RhubarbRhubarb Posts: 359
    edited August 2017
    rcs1000 said:

    Rhubarb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting stuff from Italy: Berlusconi is proposing that the country sets up a parallel currency that people - and the government - can pay for goods and services in. The idea is - effectively - these government IOUs become unanchored from the Euro, thus stimulating domestic demand.

    Longer-term, Berlusconi sees it as a way for Italy to smoothly remove itself from the Eurozone, without breaking its treaty obligations.

    Will it work?

    Well let's leave the politics out of it, and think only of the economics. The problem with a parallel currency is that people have to choose to use it. And if people think you are creating a currency so as to devalue it, then won't want to hold or accept it.

    Imagine you are the Italian government, and you insist that suppliers must accept New Lira in payments. Well, the question then arises of what the exchange rate is. Let's assume it starts off at 1,000 to 1. If the exchange rate stays there, then there is no benefit to the Italian economy, just inconvenience. On the other hand, if it moves to 1,100 to 1 after a few months, then employees, shops and restaraunts would just demand to be paid in Euros.

    Unless you forced Italian banks to mass convert the stock of savings and debt to Euros, then people would be wary about being paid in a currency that depreciated relative to their liabilities.

    And then there's the other problem. You would need to set up parallel bank accounts for everyone in the country. (A problem that does not exist if you leave the Eurozone, where you would have simply forced conversion.)

    So (and this is a personal view), a parallel currency can only succeed because people think it will hold its value better than the incumbent. That's why the Germans or the Dutch could successfully set up a parallel currency, and why people buy Bitcoin. I don't think it works for the New Lira.

    But I do think that this is a very important step for Italy in asking whether the Euro works for them. And I think people need to be aware that there are three political parties, accounting for 60% of the vote, who have varying degrees of Euroscepticism. (Although Beppe Grillo's Euroscepticism flips around like a hyperactive toddler with a TV remote.)

    Oddly enough one of the Estonian cyber-government types has been talking about Estonia launching it's own cryptocurrency in parallel to the euro.
    That's a currency expected to hold its value better than the Euro, and which comes with other advantages, so I can see why people would be attracted to it. I can't see who would *want* to hold new Italian Lira, given the official policy of the government would be to see it depreciate.
    It just struck me as an odd route to head down given that they only transitioned to the euro a couple of years ago.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,118
    edited August 2017
    Hats off to the Muslim woman defying the internet trollahs. This isn't the dark ages you repugnant oddmarks

    https://twitter.com/dailymailuk/status/900456888483147778
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    philiphphiliph Posts: 4,704
    rcs1000 said:

    Rhubarb said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Interesting stuff from Italy: Berlusconi is proposing that the country sets up a parallel currency that people - and the government - can pay for goods and services in. The idea is - effectively - these government IOUs become unanchored from the Euro, thus stimulating domestic demand.

    Longer-term, Berlusconi sees it as a way for Italy to smoothly remove itself from the Eurozone, without breaking its treaty obligations.

    Will it work?

    Well let's leave the politics out of it, and think only of the economics. The problem with a parallel currency is that people have to choose to use it. And if people think you are creating a currency so as to devalue it, then won't want to hold or accept it.

    Imagine you are the Italian government, and you insist that suppliers must accept New Lira in payments. Well, the question then arises of what the exchange rate is. Let's assume it starts off at 1,000 to 1. If the exchange rate stays there, then there is no benefit to the Italian economy, just inconvenience. On the other hand, if it moves to 1,100 to 1 after a few months, then employees, shops and restaraunts would just demand to be paid in Euros.

    Unless you forced Italian banks to mass convert the stock of savings and debt to Euros, then people would be wary about being paid in a currency that depreciated relative to their liabilities.

    And then there's the other problem. You would need to set up parallel bank accounts for everyone in the country. (A problem that does not exist if you leave the Eurozone, where you would have simply forced conversion.)

    So (and this is a personal view), a parallel currency can only succeed because people think it will hold its value better than the incumbent. That's why the Germans or the Dutch could successfully set up a parallel currency, and why people buy Bitcoin. I don't think it works for the New Lira.

    But I do think that this is a very important step for Italy in asking whether the Euro works for them. And I think people need to be aware that there are three political parties, accounting for 60% of the vote, who have varying degrees of Euroscepticism. (Although Beppe Grillo's Euroscepticism flips around like a hyperactive toddler with a TV remote.)

    Oddly enough one of the Estonian cyber-government types has been talking about Estonia launching it's own cryptocurrency in parallel to the euro.
    That's a currency expected to hold its value better than the Euro, and which comes with other advantages, so I can see why people would be attracted to it. I can't see who would *want* to hold new Italian Lira, given the official policy of the government would be to see it depreciate.
    I'm amazed the Euro rules allow the establishment of a parallel currency.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 36,013
    MTimT said:

    Re disabled scooters:

    More than once when I've been walking along the pavement I've heard a "Beeb beeb" noise behind me and it's been someone on a disabled scooter wanting me to get out of the way. What is it about being on wheels that stops you just saying "excuse me" like a civilised human being?


    Or slowing down until it's safe to pass, as one would have to for other traffic?
    In my experience, cyclists and scooter drivers are the spawn of Satan.
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,196
    BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Commission on Wednesday rebuffed the idea of a parallel currency put forward by former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi.

    It said there was only one legal currency within the euro zone.

    "There are no exceptions to this rule," a Commision spokesman said, replying to a request for a comment on the proposal.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-currency-berlusconi-commission-idUSKCN1B32BP?il=0
  • Options
    geoffwgeoffw Posts: 8,196
    Apparently Berlusconi floated (sic) the idea already in 2014.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,339
    edited August 2017
    isam said:

    Hats off to the Muslim woman defying the internet trollahs. This isn't the dark ages you repugnant oddmarks

    twitter.com/dailymailuk/status/900456888483147778

    Given the recent announcement that the state will treat online hate speech the same as in person, I wonder if they will persue any of these people who verbally attack her for her choice of swimwear?
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,954
    Has Chappers hacked his account? ;)
  • Options
    Looking like the police may well have foiled a terrorist attack in holland.

    Officers swooped on the venue and found a van with Spanish licence plates filled with gas canisters sitting outside before arresting the driver
  • Options
    Well that is a turn up for the books,

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/23/immigration-figures-review-new-checks-suggest-numbers-far-lower/

    Getting rid of exit checks all those years was absolutely bonkers.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,339
    edited August 2017
    Spain's El Pais newspaper said the driver was Spanish.
    "The ring that the police set up around the concert hall led to the detention of a van with gas bottles," Mr Aboutaleb said.
    "Whether the van with gas bottles can be linked to the threat, that cannot now be established," he added, warning against "swift conclusions".

    But officer my sat nav went wrong.....
  • Options
    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Well that is a turn up for the books,

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/23/immigration-figures-review-new-checks-suggest-numbers-far-lower/

    Getting rid of exit checks all those years was absolutely bonkers.

    Colour me cynical, but this will allow an easy 'victory' in bringing down immigration ...
  • Options
    MTimT said:

    Well that is a turn up for the books,

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/23/immigration-figures-review-new-checks-suggest-numbers-far-lower/

    Getting rid of exit checks all those years was absolutely bonkers.

    Colour me cynical, but this will allow an easy 'victory' in bringing down immigration ...
    You may think that, but I couldn't possibly comment.
  • Options
    RoyalBlueRoyalBlue Posts: 3,223

    Well that is a turn up for the books,

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/23/immigration-figures-review-new-checks-suggest-numbers-far-lower/

    Getting rid of exit checks all those years was absolutely bonkers.

    I'm sure the Civil Service will do a detailed exercise showing how these figures can be reconciled with population growth in recent years.

    Who am I kidding?
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981

    Spain's El Pais newspaper said the driver was Spanish.
    "The ring that the police set up around the concert hall led to the detention of a van with gas bottles," Mr Aboutaleb said.
    "Whether the van with gas bottles can be linked to the threat, that cannot now be established," he added, warning against "swift conclusions".

    But officer my sat nav went wrong.....

    I am all for not giving an inch to terrorism, but if I were the Allah-Las I would give serious consideration to a name change to something less (almost literally) inflammatory.
  • Options
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Spain's El Pais newspaper said the driver was Spanish.
    "The ring that the police set up around the concert hall led to the detention of a van with gas bottles," Mr Aboutaleb said.
    "Whether the van with gas bottles can be linked to the threat, that cannot now be established," he added, warning against "swift conclusions".

    But officer my sat nav went wrong.....

    I am all for not giving an inch to terrorism, but if I were the Allah-Las I would give serious consideration to a name change to something less (almost literally) inflammatory.
    The reason they give for calling themselves is incrediblely dumb, because they wanted something holy sounding...How much dope had they been smoking when they decided that was the smartest name they could come up with!
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380



    Nick's comment about motorists "looking on helplessly" as cyclists "surge into thoroughfares" is indicative of the weird sense of entitlement that seems to consume many people when they get behind the wheel of a car. Why should a car driver not occasionally be expected to give way to cyclists? Why should cyclists not be permitted to ride in groups? The roads are there for all travellers, not just those who happen to be driving a car!

    I think that deliberately "occupying" the street (my friend's phrase, and I don't think he made it up) is a bit different from respecting the right of cyclists to travel along the road like everyone else. It's comparable to pedestrians blocking a road by marching up and down a zebra crossing, or the lorry protest which blocked roads to make a political point about fuel tax.


  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    edited August 2017
    Question for the PB brains trust. A former constituent (call him X) has asked if this is legal under UK law. He wrote to someone else suggesting a weekend encounter. His friend (call him Y) has Outlook and Hotmail, and when he got the message it had an insertion:

    "We think we've found an event"...(then X's sentence) then a box to click on in order to insert "the event" in Outlook, with a note that no other attendees had signd up yet. The rest of X's message follows. X and Y are both spooked by this - is Outlook allowed to "read" messages and intersperse offers to use it to schedule any encounter that is being discussed?

  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,339
    edited August 2017

    Question for the PB brains trust. A former constituent (call him X) has asked if this is legal under UK law. He wrote to someone else suggesting a weekend encounter. His friend (call him Y) has Outlook and Hotmail, and when he got the message it had an insertion:

    "We think we've found an event"...(then X's sentence) then a box to click on in order to insert "the event" in Outlook, with a note that no other attendees had signd up yet. The rest of X's message follows. X and Y are both spooked by this - is Outlook allowed to "read" messages and intersperse offers to use it to schedule any encounter that is being discussed?

    Gmail has "read" emails since they began and the ads are then targeted based upon the contents. They are now rolling out auto suggesting what your reply should be.

    I believe their legal defence has always been no human reads it.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    edited August 2017

    Question for the PB brains trust. A former constituent (call him X) has asked if this is legal under UK law. He wrote to someone else suggesting a weekend encounter. His friend (call him Y) has Outlook and Hotmail, and when he got the message it had an insertion:

    "We think we've found an event"...(then X's sentence) then a box to click on in order to insert "the event" in Outlook, with a note that no other attendees had signd up yet. The rest of X's message follows. X and Y are both spooked by this - is Outlook allowed to "read" messages and intersperse offers to use it to schedule any encounter that is being discussed?

    Gmail has "read" emails since they began and the ads are then targeted based upon the contents. They are now rolling out auto suggesting what your reply should be.

    I believe their legal defence has always been no human reads it.
    Yes, I knew Gmail did this (one reason I've never touched it), but I asked X and apparently neither he and Y use it. Have Hotmail or Outlook followed suit? Also it seems extra-intrusive to insert the suggesiton into the middle of an email.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,238

    I don't understand the militant (read aggressive, narcissistic and self satisfied) attitude of many of London's cyclists.

    At times I've wondered if they're looking for a fight.

    At others that I'm not surprised there are so many nasty accidents.

    I have a friend who's loosely involved with the Critical Mass cyclist movement (cf. http://times-up.org/critical-mass/what-critical-mass) As he describes it, they meet in large numbers at an agreed point and then set out to "own the streets", surging into thoroughfares i such numbers that motorists look on helplessly. He described with glee how they'd surged through a shopping complex as well. He's a Tory voter of the libertarian kind and I suggested to him that all this isn't very conservative behaviour, but he says they feel they're constantly pushed around and marginalised and need to assert themselves.
    In shopping complexes ??
    Sounds a bit like going home and kicking the cat to take out your feelings of frustration; both ineffective and a bit unhinged.

    Good to know though, that you haven't eschewed all friendships with Tories as they are 'the enemy'...
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,238
    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    He and Barnier seem to enjoy a bit of trolling.
    Not ideal in international diplomacy.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,339
    edited August 2017

    Question for the PB brains trust. A former constituent (call him X) has asked if this is legal under UK law. He wrote to someone else suggesting a weekend encounter. His friend (call him Y) has Outlook and Hotmail, and when he got the message it had an insertion:

    "We think we've found an event"...(then X's sentence) then a box to click on in order to insert "the event" in Outlook, with a note that no other attendees had signd up yet. The rest of X's message follows. X and Y are both spooked by this - is Outlook allowed to "read" messages and intersperse offers to use it to schedule any encounter that is being discussed?

    Gmail has "read" emails since they began and the ads are then targeted based upon the contents. They are now rolling out auto suggesting what your reply should be.

    I believe their legal defence has always been no human reads it.
    Yes, I knew Gmail did this (one reason I've never touched it), but I asked X and apparently neither he and Y use it. Have Hotmail or Outlook followed suit? Also it seems extra-intrusive to insert the suggesiton into the middle of an email.
    Outlook / hotmail has scanned emails for donkey years as well. Microsoft always claimed they wouldnt' however use this for advertising. I don't know if that policy has changed.

    Edit: a quick google search suggests yes they have. And they want you to purchase a "premium" account to remove them.

    Personally I would never surf the web without an adblocker on, plus my VPN provides another layer of adblocking.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Nigelb said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    He and Barnier seem to enjoy a bit of trolling.
    Not ideal in international diplomacy.
    I assume it was after a good dinner. But not helpful
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,294
    geoffw said:

    BRUSSELS (Reuters) - The European Commission on Wednesday rebuffed the idea of a parallel currency put forward by former Italian prime minister Silvio Berlusconi.

    It said there was only one legal currency within the euro zone.

    "There are no exceptions to this rule," a Commision spokesman said, replying to a request for a comment on the proposal.

    http://www.reuters.com/article/us-italy-currency-berlusconi-commission-idUSKCN1B32BP?il=0

    The commission spokesman is, of course, talking absolute nonsense. It is correct that the only currency that firms *must* take inside the Eurozone is the Euro (as firms in the UK must take pounds sterling), but there is no restriction on firms transacting in other currencies.

    In shops near the Swiss border, you can transact in Swiss francs, for example.

    But ignoring this for a second, a parallel currency did effectively exist in Greece during the height of the Greek debt crisis. Unable to pay its bills, the Greek government paid for everything with IOUs. These IOUs were then used by suppliers to the Greek government to pay their own suppliers. Indeed, these IOUs kept the Greek economy going for a while.

    There is one important distinction, however. The IOUs traded at a discount to cash, but implicit in them was the promise that if Greece stayed in the Eurozone they would be honoured. The discount, then, varied with the level of confidence that Greece would stay in the Eurozone. And ultimately, Greece continued in the Eurozone and they were all paid out at par.
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,238
    Even by the extraordinary standards or the Trump administration, his 'spiritual advisor' is a bit of an outlier on the sanity scale; resisting him is "resisting the hand of God"...
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2017/08/23/paula_white_defends_trump_post_charlottesville_on_jim_bakker_s_tv_show.html
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,294
    PAW said:

    I guess very few non Italian companies would want to be paid in IOUs, so it could have the effect of reserving work for home grown companies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bristol_Pound

    Presumably there will be a liquid market in Euros to New Lira, unless the government is planning on implementing exchange controls on their new currency.
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    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    Whatever it is we'll doubtless get told its yet more brilliant negotiating tactics from the EU.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,294
    Nigelb said:

    Even by the extraordinary standards or the Trump administration, his 'spiritual advisor' is a bit of an outlier on the sanity scale; resisting him is "resisting the hand of God"...
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2017/08/23/paula_white_defends_trump_post_charlottesville_on_jim_bakker_s_tv_show.html

    The Divine Right of Trump is a well known theological doctrine.
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,380
    Nigelb said:



    Good to know though, that you haven't eschewed all friendships with Tories as they are 'the enemy'...

    If I was like that, I wouldn't post here! I think of most people here as friends at one remove, don't you? When one of us gets in trouble, people here generally rally round impressively,

    Anyway life's too short to pick friends according to one's idea of what they ought to think.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
  • Options
    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited August 2017

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    Nope. Really it wasn't. Someone pressed the wrong button (or there was a mislink in the programme) and 100 automatic letters were wrongly sent out.

    It really is just a cock up.
  • Options
    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,339
    edited August 2017

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    This is the home office we are talking about....for as long as I can remember they have been a clusterf##k. It is where most politicians have gone to have their careers wrecked.

    Somehow Kim Jong May bucked the trend and managed to avoid a major media scandal, even though things didn't run smooth when she was there.

    However, if we were to list all the f##k ups during the Labour governments time, we would be filling page upon page upon page of this website. This admin errors doesn't even register on the level of f##k ups.

  • Options

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    This is the home office we are talking about....for as long as I can remember they have been a clusterf##k. It is where most politicians have gone to have their careers wrecked.

    Somehow Kim Jong May bucked the trend and managed to avoid a major media scandal, even though things didn't run smooth when she was there.

    However, if we were to list all the f##k ups during the Labour governments time, we would be filling page upon page upon page of this website. This admin errors doesn't even register on the level of f##k ups.

    Should be "May Jong Un" - Koreans use their family name first :)
  • Options

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    ' Home Secretary John Reid has damned his department's immigration operation as "not fit for purpose" with "inadequate" leadership and management systems.

    Other failings showed the Home Office could be "dysfunctional" and "wholesale transformation" was "probably" needed.

    Although he did not rule out splitting the Home Office, he told MPs there was some logic to its current structure.

    The Conservatives said they were not convinced the home secretary could sort the problems out.

    Labour ex-minister John Denham meanwhile called Mr Reid's comments "a fairly stark assessment of the state of the Home Office".

    Mr Reid told the Commons home affairs committee that jobs could still go after 1,019 foreign prisoners were released without deportation being considered.

    But Tory opposite number David Davis said: "It will be alarming for the public to hear that, 10 months after the government were made aware of this problem, there might be a whole new group of foreign criminals on our streets, putting them at risk." '

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/5007148.stm
  • Options

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    This is the home office we are talking about....for as long as I can remember they have been a clusterf##k. It is where most politicians have gone to have their careers wrecked.

    Somehow Kim Jong May bucked the trend and managed to avoid a major media scandal, even though things didn't run smooth when she was there.

    However, if we were to list all the f##k ups during the Labour governments time, we would be filling page upon page upon page of this website. This admin errors doesn't even register on the level of f##k ups.

    Should be "May Jong Un" - Koreans use their family name first :)
    Yes I know...but it doesn't sound as good.
  • Options
    CyclefreeCyclefree Posts: 25,255

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    Oh get real. You think the EU has never committed any bureaucratic cock ups, failed to be transparent in its decisions or treated its employees in an appalling way? Who are they to get on their moral high horse?

    I could point you to a number of examples of behaviour by the EU which does not show its administration in a good light, which shows it to be incompetent, not willing to explain its decisions and which make it not credible that it can, for instance, deal competently or even honestly with the monies entrusted to it.

    A bit of self-awareness might do the EU good.
  • Options
    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    Oh get real. You think the EU has never committed any bureaucratic cock ups, failed to be transparent in its decisions or treated its employees in an appalling way? Who are they to get on their moral high horse?

    I could point you to a number of examples of behaviour by the EU which does not show its administration in a good light, which shows it to be incompetent, not willing to explain its decisions and which make it not credible that it can, for instance, deal competently or even honestly with the monies entrusted to it.

    A bit of self-awareness might do the EU good.
    This is the EU, who nobody would sign off their accounts for donkeys years, because they were such a clusterf##k.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,294

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    Oh get real. You think the EU has never committed any bureaucratic cock ups, failed to be transparent in its decisions or treated its employees in an appalling way? Who are they to get on their moral high horse?

    I could point you to a number of examples of behaviour by the EU which does not show its administration in a good light, which shows it to be incompetent, not willing to explain its decisions and which make it not credible that it can, for instance, deal competently or even honestly with the monies entrusted to it.

    A bit of self-awareness might do the EU good.
    This is the EU, who nobody would sign off their accounts for donkeys years, because they were such a clusterf##k.
    That's not actually true. It's worth reading the text of the Court of Auditors report on EU accounts. http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/annualreports-2015/annualreports-2015-EN.pdf

    This is one of the few areas where I think the EU is actually pretty transparent. Certainly, I wish other governments did a better job of assessing the extent to which money was disbursed according to correct policies.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,294
    rcs1000 said:

    That's not actually true. It's worth reading the text of the Court of Auditors report on EU accounts. http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/annualreports-2015/annualreports-2015-EN.pdf

    This is one of the few areas where I think the EU is actually pretty transparent. Certainly, I wish other governments did a better job of assessing the extent to which money was disbursed according to correct policies.

    Just to add: it's not like PWC signs off on the US government accounts, or Deloitte signs off on the UK.
  • Options
    rcs1000 said:

    Cyclefree said:

    Charles said:

    Charles said:

    I'm intrigued. What does he hope to achieve by that? Unless he doesn't want a deal it seems totally counterproductive
    I suppose that he wants EU citizens applying for residency to be treated fairly, decently and with some intelligent compassion.

    I agree that is a big ask for a government that doesn't treat its own citizens with those attributes.

    It was clearly an administrative error.

    In any event I can't think of a less constructive way to achieve what you state is his objective. He's simply using her.
    It was clearly an administrative error by an incompetent administration not willing to explain its decisions.

    It really does not show our government in a good light, or make credible that it can deal competently with millions of applications
    Oh get real. You think the EU has never committed any bureaucratic cock ups, failed to be transparent in its decisions or treated its employees in an appalling way? Who are they to get on their moral high horse?

    I could point you to a number of examples of behaviour by the EU which does not show its administration in a good light, which shows it to be incompetent, not willing to explain its decisions and which make it not credible that it can, for instance, deal competently or even honestly with the monies entrusted to it.

    A bit of self-awareness might do the EU good.
    This is the EU, who nobody would sign off their accounts for donkeys years, because they were such a clusterf##k.
    That's not actually true. It's worth reading the text of the Court of Auditors report on EU accounts. http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/annualreports-2015/annualreports-2015-EN.pdf

    This is one of the few areas where I think the EU is actually pretty transparent. Certainly, I wish other governments did a better job of assessing the extent to which money was disbursed according to correct policies.
    And you know why they have to do it this way....
  • Options
    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,238

    Nigelb said:



    Good to know though, that you haven't eschewed all friendships with Tories as they are 'the enemy'...

    If I was like that, I wouldn't post here! I think of most people here as friends at one remove, don't you? When one of us gets in trouble, people here generally rally round impressively,

    Anyway life's too short to pick friends according to one's idea of what they ought to think.
    I absolutely agree with that, Nick - I am not a party political animal at all myself.
    I was referring by inference to the press story today about a Labour MP who expressed exactly that opinion... 'they are the enemy'. It's a mode of thinking completely alien to me.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,238
    This is a fascinating story about Alphabet's efforts to develop completely autonomous self-driving cars. It seems to me this will happen much sooner than many think:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/inside-waymos-secret-testing-and-simulation-facilities/537648/
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,339
    edited August 2017
    Nigelb said:

    This is a fascinating story about Alphabet's efforts to develop completely autonomous self-driving cars. It seems to me this will happen much sooner than many think:
    https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2017/08/inside-waymos-secret-testing-and-simulation-facilities/537648/

    It depends what you want to define as "completely autonomous self-driving" car and in what contexts it will be able to operate.

    There are two competing approaches from the various companies.

    1) One is to make it work 99.9% of the time in a small well defined region / area. Then expand the region.

    2) The other is to make it work anywhere in the world, but under only certain scenarios, and hopefully over time to increase the scenarios it will work in.

    One of the big issues raised by leading academics with approach #1, which is what Google are doing, is they are using high def maps. It will cost $10's bn to map just the US and even of course it is an ever changing environment.

    Learning to work without high def maps is a much harder problem.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,238
    rcs1000 said:

    rcs1000 said:

    That's not actually true. It's worth reading the text of the Court of Auditors report on EU accounts. http://www.eca.europa.eu/Lists/ECADocuments/annualreports-2015/annualreports-2015-EN.pdf

    This is one of the few areas where I think the EU is actually pretty transparent. Certainly, I wish other governments did a better job of assessing the extent to which money was disbursed according to correct policies.

    Just to add: it's not like PWC signs off on the US government accounts, or Deloitte signs off on the UK.
    Motes and beams...
    A parable both we and the EU would do well to keep in mind during the Brexit negotiations. We do seem to see the worst in each other.

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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 63,238
    rcs1000 said:

    Nigelb said:

    Even by the extraordinary standards or the Trump administration, his 'spiritual advisor' is a bit of an outlier on the sanity scale; resisting him is "resisting the hand of God"...
    http://www.slate.com/blogs/xx_factor/2017/08/23/paula_white_defends_trump_post_charlottesville_on_jim_bakker_s_tv_show.html

    The Divine Right of Trump is a well known theological doctrine.
    Didn't America have a revolution over that idea... ?

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    To add to my post below. Uber are trying approach #2, and keen to formulate a solution without the need for hd maps.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 59,029
    Speaking of administrative cockups.. can the government meet the commitment on migration numbers after all? :D

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/23/immigration-figures-review-new-checks-suggest-numbers-far-lower/
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,876
    ".......there are French and German politicians who want to see this happen. But they really need to understand the logistics of this change and also how this would impact on the cost to the industry. This move is purely based on politics and a form of euro-nationalism rather than economics."
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,876
    Jon Snow:

    The Grenfell Tower disaster taught me a harrowing lesson – that in increasingly fractured Britain, we in the media are comfortably with the elite, with little awareness, contact, or connection with those not of the elite.

    https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/aug/23/grenfell-british-media-divide
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