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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Concern about immigration drops sharply although nearly 3 time

SystemSystem Posts: 11,708
edited August 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Concern about immigration drops sharply although nearly 3 times as many CON voters raised it than LAB ones

NHS remains top issue facing country according to Aug @IpsosMORI Issues Index which uniquely does not prompt responses pic.twitter.com/a4uWqWYFWh

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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    It would be nice to know whether concern over NHS varies with any objective data about the NHS. I am surprised at it scoring so high in high summer, NHS crises being a winter thing.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,149
    Doesn't this show that Brexit is actually *the* top issue and the NHS is the top *other* issue.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,184
    Brexit + immigration are interlinked and combined are the most important issues ahead of the NHS. Brexit is the most important single issue followed by the NHS then immigration
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,032
    Labour supporters name Labour issues, Tory supporters, Tory issues. Why a Brexit election was always a daft idea.
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    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:
    Highly doubtful. A DDG like an Arleigh Burke doesn't navigate with just GPS.

    One thing I learned on my US Navy exchange is that they have a ruthless, transparent and highly effective blame culture. The career of the captain of the USS McCain is now over. In the RN he would get an MoD posting in London until "the stink" died down...
    They may not navigate just with GPS, but people (on both ships) get lazy...

    That was my initial thought. In any event, the sudden rash of collisions lacks an obvious explanation, and the USN interruption of naval operations suggests something fairly serious afoot.

    As far as the blame culture is concerned, earlier centuries might have seen the odd exemplary hanging from the yardarm...
    I don't understand why on earth a naval ship would lack something as basic as a radar to detect other ships.

    If a commercial ship can crash into a naval ship undetected then how could the naval ship cope against rival naval ships in a war footing?
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited August 2017

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:
    Highly doubtful. A DDG like an Arleigh Burke doesn't navigate with just GPS.

    One thing I learned on my US Navy exchange is that they have a ruthless, transparent and highly effective blame culture. The career of the captain of the USS McCain is now over. In the RN he would get an MoD posting in London until "the stink" died down...
    They may not navigate just with GPS, but people (on both ships) get lazy...

    That was my initial thought. In any event, the sudden rash of collisions lacks an obvious explanation, and the USN interruption of naval operations suggests something fairly serious afoot.

    As far as the blame culture is concerned, earlier centuries might have seen the odd exemplary hanging from the yardarm...
    I don't understand why on earth a naval ship would lack something as basic as a radar to detect other ships.

    If a commercial ship can crash into a naval ship undetected then how could the naval ship cope against rival naval ships in a war footing?
    It will have had radar, and ARPA (automatic plotting aid) to predict collisions. No use if no one looks at it.

    Edit: VI and I like King James!
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,998
    Ishmael_Z said:

    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:
    Highly doubtful. A DDG like an Arleigh Burke doesn't navigate with just GPS.

    One thing I learned on my US Navy exchange is that they have a ruthless, transparent and highly effective blame culture. The career of the captain of the USS McCain is now over. In the RN he would get an MoD posting in London until "the stink" died down...
    They may not navigate just with GPS, but people (on both ships) get lazy...

    That was my initial thought. In any event, the sudden rash of collisions lacks an obvious explanation, and the USN interruption of naval operations suggests something fairly serious afoot.

    As far as the blame culture is concerned, earlier centuries might have seen the odd exemplary hanging from the yardarm...
    I don't understand why on earth a naval ship would lack something as basic as a radar to detect other ships.

    If a commercial ship can crash into a naval ship undetected then how could the naval ship cope against rival naval ships in a war footing?
    It will have had radar, and ARPA (automatic plotting aid) to predict collisions. No use if no one looks at it.

    Edit: VI and I like King James!
    I know someone who went to sleep on a yacht, and woke up underwater. By a miracle, he survived. His rescuers reckoned that a large ship must have ploughed through the yacht without anyone noticing.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,995
    Ishmael_Z said:


    Edit: VI and I like King James!

    Is that your second VI and I? :D
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    Ishmael_Z said:

    It would be nice to know whether concern over NHS varies with any objective data about the NHS. I am surprised at it scoring so high in high summer, NHS crises being a winter thing.

    This survey normally correlates pretty well with "what is in the news". Maybe the £350m bus did penetrate after all.
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    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    RobD said:

    Ishmael_Z said:


    Edit: VI and I like King James!

    Is that your second VI and I? :D
    XIV.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    This is soooo much cooler than robots picking strawberries!

    The Hadrian X is a bricklaying robot courtesy Australia's Fastbrick Robotics, which uses its 30-metre metal arm to lay bricks at a rate of 1,000 bricks per hour, compared to a human worker's average of 1,000 a day. Due for release in late 2017, Hadrian X can read a 3D CAD model of the house and then it follows those instructions precisely, working day and night.

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a33kxg/bricklaying-robots-and-exoskeletons-are-the-future-of-the-construction-industry
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    PAWPAW Posts: 1,074
    Enormous courage shown by the sailors on the Fitzgerald after that collision. Looking at the report of the loss of the Irish search and rescue helicopter at Black Rock, interpreting radar responses and tuning out clutter isn't so easy... I think the RN has standardised on Kelvin Hughes' SharpEye used by many commercial vessels, I wonder how that compares with the Raytheon on the American destroyers.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Damned new thread. Ahem.

    FPT: Betting Post

    F1: Backed Raikkonen each way at 17 with Ladbrokes to get pole (that's 1/3 the odds for top 2). It's likely to be a four horse race (with Mercedes and his team mate). Last year he beat Vettel in Belgian qualifying and has had some good qualifying so far this year. He's also got a great record at Spa and, unlike the race, the team can't possibly want him to do other than his best.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    Off topic observation.

    Watching Trump's speech about Afghanistan just now I was reminded of nobody more than Springfield's Mayor Quimby.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Off topic observation.

    Watching Trump's speech about Afghanistan just now I was reminded of nobody more than Springfield's Mayor Quimby.

    Mayor Quimby was modeled on Ted Kennedy!
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    FTPT
    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    Way off-topic:

    Here's the eclipse taken from deep space.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/2nGmyPAvrTmJG/giphy.gif

    Taken by DSCVR at the Sun-Earth L1 point. I *think* that's the satellite that Trump's turning off the Earth-observation functions. You know, because observing the Earth is a bad thing, obviously....

    To give you an idea of how far away this probe is, here's an animation of the Moon crossing he Earth:
    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/from-a-million-miles-away-nasa-camera-shows-moon-crossing-face-of-earth

    Eh? It was the Obama administration who first tried to turn it in to a solar observatory.

    The Trump administration is implementing Obama's plan for the satellite. But that doesn't fir the narrative so it gets lost in pure anti-Trump propaganda,
    Do you have linkys for those claims?
    I don't have a linky, but I have a link: https://web.archive.org/web/20110226184401/http://www.spaceflightnow.com:80/news/n1102/21dscovr/
    I think you've misunderstood what that article's saying, and what Trump's proposing.

    A satellite can perform more than one task at once, using multiple instruments.
    No, its crystal clear. The Obama admin proposed the re-purposing and NASA under Trump are implementing it.

    If you weren't so blinded by your anti-Trump views and if the names of the Presidents were reversed you'd see this as simple scientific reallocation of resources to replace ACE.
    It was launched with fully functional Earth observation instruments which are currently used - here are images from it https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/from-a-million-miles-away-nasa-camera-shows-moon-crossing-face-of-earth. It was launched with the enhanced solar storm observational equipment but also it's suite of looking at the earth equipment.

    For reasons unstated Trump is ordering that the Earth observation equipment be turned off.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    GeoffM said:

    Off topic observation.

    Watching Trump's speech about Afghanistan just now I was reminded of nobody more than Springfield's Mayor Quimby.

    Mayor Quimby was modeled on Ted Kennedy!
    Trump seems an equally good fit. Life imitating art perhaps.
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    MikeLMikeL Posts: 7,318
    Notable how low Poverty / Inequality is - despite it appearing to be the issue Corbyn is most concerned about.

    Though that certainly didn't stop Corbyn gaining so many votes at the GE.
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    This story gets weirder and weirder.....

    A headless and limbless corpse found in waters off Denmark was deliberately mutilated, say Copenhagen police.

    http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-41016881
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,014
    Mr. Urquhart, headline sounds similar to that black magic case in London a few years ago.

    Anyway, must be off.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,998

    Mr. Urquhart, headline sounds similar to that black magic case in London a few years ago.

    Anyway, must be off.

    Or the limbs in the loch murder.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Is there any other country in Europe where the health service is such a political issue?
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869
    GeoffM said:

    This is soooo much cooler than robots picking strawberries!

    The Hadrian X is a bricklaying robot courtesy Australia's Fastbrick Robotics, which uses its 30-metre metal arm to lay bricks at a rate of 1,000 bricks per hour, compared to a human worker's average of 1,000 a day. Due for release in late 2017, Hadrian X can read a 3D CAD model of the house and then it follows those instructions precisely, working day and night.

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a33kxg/bricklaying-robots-and-exoskeletons-are-the-future-of-the-construction-industry

    I like it!

    The specification will need to be very precise and accurate. Remember all those Satnav early adopters who ended up in impassible 'roads'?

    Good evening, everyone. Still lurking.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Imagine being this desperate for a date:

    https://www.wired.com/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/
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    GeoffM said:

    This is soooo much cooler than robots picking strawberries!

    The Hadrian X is a bricklaying robot courtesy Australia's Fastbrick Robotics, which uses its 30-metre metal arm to lay bricks at a rate of 1,000 bricks per hour, compared to a human worker's average of 1,000 a day. Due for release in late 2017, Hadrian X can read a 3D CAD model of the house and then it follows those instructions precisely, working day and night.

    https://motherboard.vice.com/en_us/article/a33kxg/bricklaying-robots-and-exoskeletons-are-the-future-of-the-construction-industry

    Surely a better productiviy improvement over bricks and bricklaying would be prefabricated walls.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Is there any other country in Europe where the health service is such a political issue?

    No. But then again, nobody has been daft enough to copy our system so its a dataset of one.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,995

    Imagine being this desperate for a date:

    https://www.wired.com/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/

    Sleeping in his cubicle? Dedication....
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    Nigelb said:

    Dura_Ace said:

    Dura_Ace said:
    Highly doubtful. A DDG like an Arleigh Burke doesn't navigate with just GPS.

    One thing I learned on my US Navy exchange is that they have a ruthless, transparent and highly effective blame culture. The career of the captain of the USS McCain is now over. In the RN he would get an MoD posting in London until "the stink" died down...
    They may not navigate just with GPS, but people (on both ships) get lazy...

    That was my initial thought. In any event, the sudden rash of collisions lacks an obvious explanation, and the USN interruption of naval operations suggests something fairly serious afoot.

    As far as the blame culture is concerned, earlier centuries might have seen the odd exemplary hanging from the yardarm...
    I don't understand why on earth a naval ship would lack something as basic as a radar to detect other ships.

    If a commercial ship can crash into a naval ship undetected then how could the naval ship cope against rival naval ships in a war footing?
    Maybe the ship was practicing hidding from enemy radar behind the oil tanker - then got too close to the bow.


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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,298
    edited August 2017
    A Guardian columnist has written that Nelson’s Column in Trafalgar Square should be toppled - but Maajid Nawaz has perfectly summed up why that suggestion is “puerile”.

    Discussing the article on his show, Maajid denounced the idea, describing it as an attempt to try and censor history just because it offends some people.

    “Where do you draw the line,” the LBC presenter said as he embarked on his passionate rant.

    “Let’s start tearing down Richard the Lion Heart because he participated in the crusade and that offends me too.

    “Why stop there? Queen Victoria, she reigned over the British Empire and colonised large parts of the world including South Asia.

    “Let’s stop calling it Victoria Station, Victoria Hall, let’s remove everything with Queen Victoria’s name on it - including all the Navy ships we named after her.”

    He continued: “What about Queen Elizabeth? Queen Elizabeth reigned over for a brief time when we still had some remanence of the Empire left.

    “Let’s remove everything with Queen Elizabeth’s name on it, including any monuments and statues put up to her name.”

    Maajid finished: “Hold on, she’s still our Queen isn’t she - that means we’ve got to remove the monarchy.”

    http://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/maajid-nawaz/maajid-destroys-guardian-columnists-suggestion-to/
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,995
    edited August 2017

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    Threat of, rather than actual? What was project fear predicting again? :p
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    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    Well the BBC keep telling us it is all fake news that unemployment is right down....
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,751
    dixiedean said:

    Labour supporters name Labour issues, Tory supporters, Tory issues. Why a Brexit election was always a daft idea.

    So not liking foreigners is a Tory issue. Glad we've cleared that up.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,149
    edited August 2017
    It's impressive that Theresa May managed to torpedo a 'Brexit' election campaign with a flagship policy to deal with an issue that only 1% of people think is most important.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    There are still substantial numbers of unemployment, but I expect people also mean underemployment and lack of job security.

    Leicester line up of the reserves looks very vulnerable for an away cup tie in Sheffield. 4/1 on Sheffield looks value to me.
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    It's impressive that Theresa May managed to torpedo a 'Brexit' election campaign with a flagship policy to deal with an issue that only 1% of people think is most important.

    May's mistake was to turn the election into one about personalities - hers versus Corbyns.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    @ NigelB "That was my initial thought. In any event, the sudden rash of collisions lacks an obvious explanation, and the USN interruption of naval operations suggests something fairly serious afoot."

    I was musing with the wife about this. I wonder whether there is a technology overload issue here. Something along the lines of too many different gadgets to manage that the pilot forgets to fly the plane, [or, in this case, the captain fails to steer the ship].

    There is history in this regard - the US plane where pilot and co-pilot were so intent on fixing a problem with the landing gear that they forgot about flying the plane and it crashed

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,032

    dixiedean said:

    Labour supporters name Labour issues, Tory supporters, Tory issues. Why a Brexit election was always a daft idea.

    So not liking foreigners is a Tory issue. Glad we've cleared that up.
    Seeing immigration as an important issue tends to put you on the Right, yes.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Labour supporters name Labour issues, Tory supporters, Tory issues. Why a Brexit election was always a daft idea.

    So not liking foreigners is a Tory issue. Glad we've cleared that up.
    Seeing immigration as an important issue tends to put you on the Right, yes.
    That depends. Those on the Left see flooding a country with a swarm of client voters as an important route to power.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    GeoffM said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Labour supporters name Labour issues, Tory supporters, Tory issues. Why a Brexit election was always a daft idea.

    So not liking foreigners is a Tory issue. Glad we've cleared that up.
    Seeing immigration as an important issue tends to put you on the Right, yes.
    That depends. Those on the Left see flooding a country with a swarm of client voters as an important route to power.
    I support unhindered movement of people including anyone who wishes to go out of the UK.
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    Alistair said:

    For reasons unstated Trump is ordering that the Earth observation equipment be turned off.

    NASA should just tell him they did it...
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,995
    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Labour supporters name Labour issues, Tory supporters, Tory issues. Why a Brexit election was always a daft idea.

    So not liking foreigners is a Tory issue. Glad we've cleared that up.
    Seeing immigration as an important issue tends to put you on the Right, yes.
    While it sounds likely, it would be interesting to see some polling on this.
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    surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549

    It's impressive that Theresa May managed to torpedo a 'Brexit' election campaign with a flagship policy to deal with an issue that only 1% of people think is most important.

    May's mistake was to turn the election into one about personalities - hers versus Corbyns.
    Small problem - she does not have a personality.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,995
    surbiton said:

    GeoffM said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Labour supporters name Labour issues, Tory supporters, Tory issues. Why a Brexit election was always a daft idea.

    So not liking foreigners is a Tory issue. Glad we've cleared that up.
    Seeing immigration as an important issue tends to put you on the Right, yes.
    That depends. Those on the Left see flooding a country with a swarm of client voters as an important route to power.
    I support unhindered movement of people including anyone who wishes to go out of the UK.
    Totally unhindered?
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,998

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    Perhaps naming unemployment is, for some people, a socially correct response.
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    SandyRentoolSandyRentool Posts: 20,751
    GeoffM said:

    dixiedean said:

    dixiedean said:

    Labour supporters name Labour issues, Tory supporters, Tory issues. Why a Brexit election was always a daft idea.

    So not liking foreigners is a Tory issue. Glad we've cleared that up.
    Seeing immigration as an important issue tends to put you on the Right, yes.
    That depends. Those on the Left see flooding a country with a swarm of client voters as an important route to power.
    Flooding with a swarm. I think we have a winner in the PB Mixed Metaphor of the Month competition.
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    619619 Posts: 1,784

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    There are still substantial numbers of unemployment, but I expect people also mean underemployment and lack of job security.

    Leicester line up of the reserves looks very vulnerable for an away cup tie in Sheffield. 4/1 on Sheffield looks value to me.
    Ipswhich are 14-1 to do over Palace with both teams to score. Considering Ipswichs form at the mo, that seems good to me
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,952
    MTimT said:

    @ NigelB "That was my initial thought. In any event, the sudden rash of collisions lacks an obvious explanation, and the USN interruption of naval operations suggests something fairly serious afoot."

    I was musing with the wife about this. I wonder whether there is a technology overload issue here. Something along the lines of too many different gadgets to manage that the pilot forgets to fly the plane, [or, in this case, the captain fails to steer the ship].

    There is history in this regard - the US plane where pilot and co-pilot were so intent on fixing a problem with the landing gear that they forgot about flying the plane and it crashed

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401

    Or this one, where four pilots (three of whom were Captains) failed to notice they were far too slow on approach and they crashed.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

    Or this one, again too slow on approach after a minor systems failure
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951

    Or this one, where a couple of muppets completely forgot the basics of how to fly a plane
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

    As planes become more mechanically reliable, autopilot systems better and airlines more cost conscious, more accidents are being caused by pilots being out of practice at the point their skills are most needed.

    I don’t know much about boats, but I’d suspect the same is possible with over-reliance on GPS and auto manoeuvring systems.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,998
    The EU/Brexit could be either a Remain issue, or a Leave issue, but the demographic breakdown suggests it's a Leave issue.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,149
    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034
    Sandpit said:

    MTimT said:

    @ NigelB "That was my initial thought. In any event, the sudden rash of collisions lacks an obvious explanation, and the USN interruption of naval operations suggests something fairly serious afoot."

    I was musing with the wife about this. I wonder whether there is a technology overload issue here. Something along the lines of too many different gadgets to manage that the pilot forgets to fly the plane, [or, in this case, the captain fails to steer the ship].

    There is history in this regard - the US plane where pilot and co-pilot were so intent on fixing a problem with the landing gear that they forgot about flying the plane and it crashed

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Air_Lines_Flight_401

    Or this one, where four pilots (three of whom were Captains) failed to notice they were far too slow on approach and they crashed.
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asiana_Airlines_Flight_214

    Or this one, again too slow on approach after a minor systems failure
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkish_Airlines_Flight_1951

    Or this one, where a couple of muppets completely forgot the basics of how to fly a plane
    https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_France_Flight_447

    As planes become more mechanically reliable, autopilot systems better and airlines more cost conscious, more accidents are being caused by pilots being out of practice at the point their skills are most needed.

    I don’t know much about boats, but I’d suspect the same is possible with over-reliance on GPS and auto manoeuvring systems.
    I think the Stockholm/Andrea Doria collision had some elements of that. Certainly skills atrophy is a common side effect of technology.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,009
    edited August 2017

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    Strange that he refers to himself as an immigrant. Imagine the outrageux if a politician referred to him as such
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited August 2017
    619 said:

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    There are still substantial numbers of unemployment, but I expect people also mean underemployment and lack of job security.

    Leicester line up of the reserves looks very vulnerable for an away cup tie in Sheffield. 4/1 on Sheffield looks value to me.
    Ipswhich are 14-1 to do over Palace with both teams to score. Considering Ipswichs form at the mo, that seems good to me
    Sounds good*, Both teams to score / Sheffield win probably value too at 15/2.

    It is our defence that is makeshift. Away to Man U this weekend also.

    *I see Palace have fielded a strong team though.
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,149
    isam said:

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    Strange that he refers to himself as an immigrant. Imagine the outrageux if a politician refereed to him as such
    He did not do it in a positive sense. The headline of the article is 'Brexit made me an immigrant in the country I was born in—I can’t just “let it go”'.
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    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,307

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    That's conjured up an image of Dan floating about Nijinsky-like in a leotard to something by Elgar.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,009

    isam said:

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    Strange that he refers to himself as an immigrant. Imagine the outrageux if a politician refereed to him as such
    He did not do it in a positive sense. The headline of the article is 'Brexit made me an immigrant in the country I was born in—I can’t just “let it go”'.
    "It’s time for to fold away my beloved red-white-and-blue and pack it away somewhere safe.But I will always call on that one, precious commodity we immigrants have in abundance: hope."

    He is a melodramatic prat by the sound of it.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Imagine being this desperate for a date:

    https://www.wired.com/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/

    Great line:

    Even for a mathematician, McKinlay is unusual.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,370
    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,998

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    There wasn't a dry eye in the house.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,009
    edited August 2017

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    There was no control over it, people thought there should beand now the govt have the opportunity to do something... That's all people wanted. Cameron won power on a false prospectus of cutting immigration, so drastic measures were required
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    Sean_F said:

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    Perhaps naming unemployment is, for some people, a socially correct response.
    Which is why so many people say the NHS.
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    NigelbNigelb Posts: 62,855
    Alistair said:

    FTPT

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    Way off-topic:

    Here's the eclipse taken from deep space.

    https://media.giphy.com/media/2nGmyPAvrTmJG/giphy.gif

    Taken by DSCVR at the Sun-Earth L1 point. I *think* that's the satellite that Trump's turning off the Earth-observation functions. You know, because observing the Earth is a bad thing, obviously....

    To give you an idea of how far away this probe is, here's an animation of the Moon crossing he Earth:
    https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/from-a-million-miles-away-nasa-camera-shows-moon-crossing-face-of-earth

    Eh? It was the Obama administration who first tried to turn it in to a solar observatory.

    The Trump administration is implementing Obama's plan for the satellite. But that doesn't fir the narrative so it gets lost in pure anti-Trump propaganda,
    Do you have linkys for those claims?
    I don't have a linky, but I have a link: https://web.archive.org/web/20110226184401/http://www.spaceflightnow.com:80/news/n1102/21dscovr/
    I think you've misunderstood what that article's saying, and what Trump's proposing.

    A satellite can perform more than one task at once, using multiple instruments.
    No, its crystal clear. The Obama admin proposed the re-purposing and NASA under Trump are implementing it.

    If you weren't so blinded by your anti-Trump views and if the names of the Presidents were reversed you'd see this as simple scientific reallocation of resources to replace ACE.
    It was launched with fully functional Earth observation instruments which are currently used - here are images from it https://www.nasa.gov/feature/goddard/from-a-million-miles-away-nasa-camera-shows-moon-crossing-face-of-earth. It was launched with the enhanced solar storm observational equipment but also it's suite of looking at the earth equipment.

    For reasons unstated Trump is ordering that the Earth observation equipment be turned off.
    I think, for once, that might be with absolute accuracy be labelled denialism...
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    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    Charles said:

    Imagine being this desperate for a date:

    https://www.wired.com/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/

    Great line:

    Even for a mathematician, McKinlay is unusual.
    "Most unsuccessful daters confront self-esteem issues. For McKinlay it was worse. He had to question his calculations."
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    AnneJGPAnneJGP Posts: 2,869

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,298
    edited August 2017
    I see Barnet have a young player starting this evening called Fonguck....I am sure the supporters hope that he doesn't make a right Fonguck of the opportunity.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Sean_F said:

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    Perhaps naming unemployment is, for some people, a socially correct response.
    Which is why so many people say the NHS.
    "The NHS" is the cop-out easy virtue signalling option.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,995
    AnneJGP said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
    Yeah, that thought had occurred to me too.
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    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Another post by Nick that in my opinion identifies a majority view, mine included
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,684
    GeoffM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    Perhaps naming unemployment is, for some people, a socially correct response.
    Which is why so many people say the NHS.
    "The NHS" is the cop-out easy virtue signalling option.
    If you're old and vote Tory, you're going to be quite interested in it. Very few of those with money bother paying for private healthcare at that age.

    If you're younger, and vote Labour, you're going to be interested in it if you work in it, have friends that work in it, or if you want to signal what you're about over it.

    Ergo, the NHS scores highly. It is both important to many, and a national religion at the same time.
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    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Got to be stronger than that I feel. I want it under the total control of a govt I can elect and fire. I feel people would be more comfortable about numbers, even not inconsiderable ones (and yes of course we will need immigrants), if they feel they are getting a say. At present we have signed away all control on 440m. If you don't control your borders, you are not a proper country, nor can your realistically plan for the future as a state for the benefit of your citizens if you only have a pretty inaccurate idea of how many will be here and where in five and ten years time.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,995
    edited August 2017

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Wasn't limiting early access to benefits part of Cameron's grand *ahem* renegotiation?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    This is cool!

    STEVE BANNON FIDGET SPINNER
    Leftists need comfort at times like these. Gift them this pacifying item that will give them something to do in between pulling down monuments. Or keep one for yourself!
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,684

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    I don't know what some people expect to achieve by resorting to such hyperbole.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,684

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    They could mean underemployment.
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    AnneJGP said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
    You should feel enriched about the vibrant new Britain of suburban shanty towns, Jew hatred, industrial scale racist child rape, female genital mutilation, human trafficking and slavery.
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    That's a very misleading way to present it.

    Hannan's response to a Prospect article about Brexit was "those who were dancing were thought to be insane by those who could not hear the music"

    i.e. those who don't understand why Leavers voted for Brexit tend to believe that Leavers are mad or stupid or both.
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    dixiedeandixiedean Posts: 28,032

    GeoffM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    Perhaps naming unemployment is, for some people, a socially correct response.
    Which is why so many people say the NHS.
    "The NHS" is the cop-out easy virtue signalling option.
    If you're old and vote Tory, you're going to be quite interested in it. Very few of those with money bother paying for private healthcare at that age.

    If you're younger, and vote Labour, you're going to be interested in it if you work in it, have friends that work in it, or if you want to signal what you're about over it.

    Ergo, the NHS scores highly. It is both important to many, and a national religion at the same time.
    If you are younger and your parents or grandparents are in and out of hospital, or you are having a baby, or have a disabled child, you will take an interest, too.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    That's conjured up an image of Dan floating about Nijinsky-like in a leotard to something by Elgar.
    https://twitter.com/matchico/status/900061084878614529
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    CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Pong said:

    Charles said:

    Imagine being this desperate for a date:

    https://www.wired.com/2014/01/how-to-hack-okcupid/

    Great line:

    Even for a mathematician, McKinlay is unusual.
    "Most unsuccessful daters confront self-esteem issues. For McKinlay it was worse. He had to question his calculations."
    Wired is a bit hit and miss, but sometimes they really nail it
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    AnneJGP said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
    You should feel enriched about the vibrant new Britain of suburban shanty towns, Jew hatred, industrial scale racist child rape, female genital mutilation, human trafficking and slavery.
    It certainly gives us things to be passionate about.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    dixiedean said:

    GeoffM said:

    Sean_F said:

    Amazing how many people name unemployment, given the current statistics. Some people are never satisfied.

    Perhaps naming unemployment is, for some people, a socially correct response.
    Which is why so many people say the NHS.
    "The NHS" is the cop-out easy virtue signalling option.
    If you're old and vote Tory, you're going to be quite interested in it. Very few of those with money bother paying for private healthcare at that age.

    If you're younger, and vote Labour, you're going to be interested in it if you work in it, have friends that work in it, or if you want to signal what you're about over it.

    Ergo, the NHS scores highly. It is both important to many, and a national religion at the same time.
    If you are younger and your parents or grandparents are in and out of hospital, or you are having a baby, or have a disabled child, you will take an interest, too.
    Not necessarily in a positive way.
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    MTimTMTimT Posts: 7,034

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    That's conjured up an image of Dan floating about Nijinsky-like in a leotard to something by Elgar.
    https://twitter.com/matchico/status/900061084878614529

    I used to like pogoing to the Sex Pistols. But then I was young and my knees still worked.
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    MattWMattW Posts: 18,767

    AnneJGP said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
    You should feel enriched about the vibrant new Britain of suburban shanty towns, Jew hatred, industrial scale racist child rape, female genital mutilation, human trafficking and slavery.
    So Rotherham grooming (from the early 1990s onwards), FGM (for at least a generation), Human Trafficking (ditto), Jew hatred (SWP / Nazis / National Front) etc etc were all caused by Brexit.

    Dr Who Lives !

    Or perhaps Brexit will help us recover from these things that happened on the EU watch.

    Or perhaps someone is blowing smoke.
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    Is there any other country in Europe where the health service is such a political issue?

    It's due to the British inferiority complex with the Americans. The NHS is the main thing we beat them at these days.
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    MonkeysMonkeys Posts: 755
    FPT: Apols if it's off-topic but I think it's interesting.

    Monkeys said:

    It just occurred to me that the Pope wears a £10 analogue watch.

    I wonder what Satoshi Nakamoto wears?

    This may be the age of narcissists, but shaped by the Ascetic Monk

    The BBC4 documentary on the Silk Road last night was fascinating. He was making $20k a day, while sub-renting an upstairs room in a house in San Francisco for $1k a month and using the public library wifi for internet.

    I have no idea how many, is any of the bitcoins he made he still has. I can only imagine what they would be worth now.

    I know the feds seized hundreds of thousands of them. What's really interesting is selling them off immediately would have crashed the market, so they sold them off in blocks, and slightly above market price.

    They didn't want to crash it.

    Another bitcoin incident: an exchange, Mt Gox, got hacked and a bunch of bitcoin stolen. We can see the movement of the coins through the blockchain, and at the end of July someone running another exchange was arrested for money laundering, and part of that was involvement in the Mt Gox hack.

    Around the time of his arrest, we can see 66,000 of them suddenly shift on the Blockchain:

    https://blockchain.info/address/18f1yugoAJuXcHAbsuRVLQC9TezJ6iVRLp

    Had a beer after work so I might be insensible.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,009
    edited August 2017
    MattW said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
    You should feel enriched about the vibrant new Britain of suburban shanty towns, Jew hatred, industrial scale racist child rape, female genital mutilation, human trafficking and slavery.
    So Rotherham grooming (from the early 1990s onwards), FGM (for at least a generation), Human Trafficking (ditto), Jew hatred (SWP / Nazis / National Front) etc etc were all caused by Brexit.

    Dr Who Lives !

    Or perhaps Brexit will help us recover from these things that happened on the EU watch.

    Or perhaps someone is blowing smoke.
    These things have happened in a large way because of mass immigration. The public never wanted it, the politicians never listened to them, then we had a referendum which was a proxy for immigration control, and a chance to slap the political elite in the face...
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Maybe we should replace Nelson with Farage, I'm sure some would agree
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    nichomar said:

    Maybe we should replace Nelson with Farage, I'm sure some would agree

    You can't remove a statue of a disabled person.

    That's definitely something-ist.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    isam said:

    MattW said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
    You should feel enriched about the vibrant new Britain of suburban shanty towns, Jew hatred, industrial scale racist child rape, female genital mutilation, human trafficking and slavery.
    So Rotherham grooming (from the early 1990s onwards), FGM (for at least a generation), Human Trafficking (ditto), Jew hatred (SWP / Nazis / National Front) etc etc were all caused by Brexit.

    Dr Who Lives !

    Or perhaps Brexit will help us recover from these things that happened on the EU watch.

    Or perhaps someone is blowing smoke.
    These things have happened in a large way because of mass immigration. The public never wanted it, the politicians never listened to them, then we had a referendum which was a proxy for immigration control, and a chance to slap the political elite in the face...
    But it wasn't EU migration it was migration the government could have controlled, so who did they slap in the face?
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,074
    RobD said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Wasn't limiting early access to benefits part of Cameron's grand *ahem* renegotiation?
    Yes. Except he didn't actually get that. He got the possibility that, if all the other EU governments agreed, then he could temporarily suspend early access to benefits.
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    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,074
    welshowl said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Got to be stronger than that I feel. I want it under the total control of a govt I can elect and fire. I feel people would be more comfortable about numbers, even not inconsiderable ones (and yes of course we will need immigrants), if they feel they are getting a say. At present we have signed away all control on 440m. If you don't control your borders, you are not a proper country, nor can your realistically plan for the future as a state for the benefit of your citizens if you only have a pretty inaccurate idea of how many will be here and where in five and ten years time.
    It's a continuum even for "free movement", though isn't it?

    Free movement for those with certain qualifications, no criminal records, no possibility of benefits, and a job offer paying more than x

    Through to

    Free movement and free benefits for anyone from anywhere.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,998

    Hannan's reaction to a third generation Indian immigrant saying he was always proud to be British but now, the country he thought he knew is unrecognisable is that he "can't hear the music".

    https://twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/900059068680810499

    I don't know what some people expect to achieve by resorting to such hyperbole.
    Some people think that no case can be sufficiently overstated, and to be fair, equality and diversity practice makes it rational to overstate one's case.
  • Options
    welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,460
    rcs1000 said:

    welshowl said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Got to be stronger than that I feel. I want it under the total control of a govt I can elect and fire. I feel people would be more comfortable about numbers, even not inconsiderable ones (and yes of course we will need immigrants), if they feel they are getting a say. At present we have signed away all control on 440m. If you don't control your borders, you are not a proper country, nor can your realistically plan for the future as a state for the benefit of your citizens if you only have a pretty inaccurate idea of how many will be here and where in five and ten years time.
    It's a continuum even for "free movement", though isn't it?

    Free movement for those with certain qualifications, no criminal records, no possibility of benefits, and a job offer paying more than x

    Through to

    Free movement and free benefits for anyone from anywhere.
    Indeed.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,998
    rcs1000 said:

    welshowl said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Got to be stronger than that I feel. I want it under the total control of a govt I can elect and fire. I feel people would be more comfortable about numbers, even not inconsiderable ones (and yes of course we will need immigrants), if they feel they are getting a say. At present we have signed away all control on 440m. If you don't control your borders, you are not a proper country, nor can your realistically plan for the future as a state for the benefit of your citizens if you only have a pretty inaccurate idea of how many will be here and where in five and ten years time.
    It's a continuum even for "free movement", though isn't it?

    Free movement for those with certain qualifications, no criminal records, no possibility of benefits, and a job offer paying more than x

    Through to

    Free movement and free benefits for anyone from anywhere.
    There's probably about 10% of the population, and perhaps 15% among opinion formers, who do actually believe in the latter.
  • Options
    isamisam Posts: 41,009
    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    MattW said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
    You should feel enriched about the vibrant new Britain of suburban shanty towns, Jew hatred, industrial scale racist child rape, female genital mutilation, human trafficking and slavery.
    So Rotherham grooming (from the early 1990s onwards), FGM (for at least a generation), Human Trafficking (ditto), Jew hatred (SWP / Nazis / National Front) etc etc were all caused by Brexit.

    Dr Who Lives !

    Or perhaps Brexit will help us recover from these things that happened on the EU watch.

    Or perhaps someone is blowing smoke.
    These things have happened in a large way because of mass immigration. The public never wanted it, the politicians never listened to them, then we had a referendum which was a proxy for immigration control, and a chance to slap the political elite in the face...
    But it wasn't EU migration it was migration the government could have controlled, so who did they slap in the face?
    Successive governments allowed immigration, both EU and non EU, to increase beyond all known records, while promising to be tough on it. The public always want less immigration said the polls, but no matter who was in charge, they increased it. UKIP went from 3% to 13% once they majored on immigration, despite being a one man band. Then we had a chance to slap the bosses in the face...
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,149
    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Wasn't limiting early access to benefits part of Cameron's grand *ahem* renegotiation?
    Yes. Except he didn't actually get that. He got the possibility that, if all the other EU governments agreed, then he could temporarily suspend early access to benefits.
    There have always been any number of ways we could reform the benefits system in full compliance with EU law as long as it was non-discriminatory.
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    MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,237
    nichomar said:

    Maybe we should replace Nelson with Farage, I'm sure some would agree

    We could call it Farage's Folly
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    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,149
    isam said:

    nichomar said:

    isam said:

    MattW said:

    AnneJGP said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Perhaps the saddest thing of all is that the feeling of having been turned into a stranger in one's own country only matters when it's expressed from one side of a multi-faceted issue.
    You should feel enriched about the vibrant new Britain of suburban shanty towns, Jew hatred, industrial scale racist child rape, female genital mutilation, human trafficking and slavery.
    So Rotherham grooming (from the early 1990s onwards), FGM (for at least a generation), Human Trafficking (ditto), Jew hatred (SWP / Nazis / National Front) etc etc were all caused by Brexit.

    Dr Who Lives !

    Or perhaps Brexit will help us recover from these things that happened on the EU watch.

    Or perhaps someone is blowing smoke.
    These things have happened in a large way because of mass immigration. The public never wanted it, the politicians never listened to them, then we had a referendum which was a proxy for immigration control, and a chance to slap the political elite in the face...
    But it wasn't EU migration it was migration the government could have controlled, so who did they slap in the face?
    Successive governments allowed immigration, both EU and non EU, to increase beyond all known records, while promising to be tough on it. The public always want less immigration said the polls, but no matter who was in charge, they increased it. UKIP went from 3% to 13% once they majored on immigration, despite being a one man band. Then we had a chance to slap the bosses in the face...
    You should be most angry at the Eurosceptic takeover of the Tory party in the 90s that gave Blair a free run. If Ken Clarke had been leader in 1997, a lot of things would have been different.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,998

    rcs1000 said:

    RobD said:

    Although Brexit was seen by many commentators as being mostly about immigration (and for many perhaps it was), it also seems to have had a detoxifying effect - people who used to worry a lot about the issue now feel vaguely that something is being done.

    The zealots who really disliked foreigners were always a small minority - most people who were and to some extent still are concerned mainly felt it was out of control rather than terrible per se, and I reckon most would be up for some sort of fudge on freedom of movement - something more about limiting early access to benefits, say.

    Wasn't limiting early access to benefits part of Cameron's grand *ahem* renegotiation?
    Yes. Except he didn't actually get that. He got the possibility that, if all the other EU governments agreed, then he could temporarily suspend early access to benefits.
    There have always been any number of ways we could reform the benefits system in full compliance with EU law as long as it was non-discriminatory.
    It is however, reasonable to discriminate between British Nationals and non-nationals.
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