Sort of on-topic: I'm increasingly unconfident about any Brexit bill passing the HoC.
There are too many people on both sides who have a vested interest in voting it down.
Which Tory MPs have a 'vested interest' in opposing the bill (Clarke and Soubry aside)? If the Tories fail to deliver some kind of Brexit, they will be annihilated at the next election. They know that, hence some kind of Brexit will take place.
The interests of the Tory Party will take us out of the EU. Let's also remember the handful of Labour leavers who I expect to abstain on the final vote.
Very few of them are going to vote for the kind of Brexit that will be on offer at the end of this protracted process. The Brexit the Tories will deliver will be toxic to their poll chances for years to come. I expect the Commons will vote down the eventual agreement but we'll avoid the hard Brexit by having an election and withdrawing Article 50. (Can't be done? Watch this space in a couple of years!)
But will there be a majority for an election? Will there be a majority for legislation to revoke A50? If there is no majority for anything at all I think we simply cease to be a member of the EU after March 2019.
Absolutely. If nothing is agreed, we leave at the end of March 2019 with no deal at all.
This scenario would bring a dramatic climax where there will be three options:
1. Extend A50.
2. Revoke A50
3. Crash out.
1 & 2 are not fully in our control 2 would require legislation 3 would require extensive preparatory work to avoid logistical and legal chaos.
Sort of on-topic: I'm increasingly unconfident about any Brexit bill passing the HoC.
There are too many people on both sides who have a vested interest in voting it down.
GE2017 truly was a disaster. May really did need that 60-80 majority to make it stick.
Which Tory MPs have a 'vested interest' in opposing the bill (Clarke and Soubry aside)?
If the Tories fail to deliver some kind of Brexit, they will be annihilated at the next election. They know that, hence some kind of Brexit will take place. As the only one available will be agreed by Barnier and Davis, that is what we'll get.
The interests of the Tory Party will take us out of the EU. Let's also remember the handful of Labour leavers who I expect to abstain on the final vote.
Rees Mogg et al may vote it down due to the bill.
If you have believed for years that it is in our national interest to leave the EU, why endanger it with a vote that may scupper the whole process? I don't believe he, Cash or any of the others would do it. They would never be forgiven.
They might see it as guaranteeing a full hard Brexit with no bill.
If the Tories fail to deliver some kind of Brexit, they will be annihilated at the next election.
The reverse is (also) true. If they fail to find a way to exit from Brexit they will be annihilated at the next election.
They are in a terrible place.
Rubbish. 75% of current Tory supporters are Brexiteers; if half walk away, the party will suffer a bigger defeat than 1997. If half the Tory Remainers walk away the party will lose, but it will clearly be strong enough to fight another day.
Why do you think delivering Brexit will prevent voters who currently support Brexit from walking away from the ensuing mess? They won't be forgiving if it doesn't turn out the way they currently expect it to.
I don't think you're the sort of person in a position to tell me how Leavers 'really' think.
No Brexit means Labour landslide with Corbyn as PM. It won't happen.
Why do you think Labour got over 40% in the last election? The same would happen in reverse if Corbyn ever looked like winning a landslide. It would become a binary choice between him and the most credible opponent - whether that is the Conservatives or the Democrats.
The Conservatives will get crushed if they do not become the party of Remain in time, but they have been too completely infiltrated by hardcore Eurosceptic fruitcakes to realise it.
There is literally no point engaging with you. I won't make that mistake again.
I hope your loss of faith in the British electorate is short-lived. Believing a Corbyn landslide is possible under any circumstances whatsoever must be an alienating place to be for a royal blue Conservative.
I'm considering campaigning for a second referendum, the reaction of the Remainers when they lose for the second time would be priceless.
This is not a football match that was won or lost. Brexit negotiations are currently taking place in the real world, and there are real world choices and consequences. You'd do better to face up to them instead of gloating about a Pyrrhic victory scored against your perceived enemies.
When people lose they often try to say there are no winners or losers
Oh but there are losers. Brexit and the Brexiteers have been found out by contact with reality. How they must wish they never got their referendum.
Indeed. In so-called "winning" they have merely fallen into the cunning trap set for them by Remain.
If only. They fell into a trap set by themselves.
Blast! We should have been more like those cunning Lib Dems, continually suffering electoral humiliation as part of their master plan to make Nick Clegg our eternal President.
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Sort of on-topic: I'm increasingly unconfident about any Brexit bill passing the HoC.
There are too many people on both sides who have a vested interest in voting it down.
Which Tory MPs have a 'vested interest' in opposing the bill (Clarke and Soubry aside)? If the Tories fail to deliver some kind of Brexit, they will be annihilated at the next election. They know that, hence some kind of Brexit will take place.
The interests of the Tory Party will take us out of the EU. Let's also remember the handful of Labour leavers who I expect to abstain on the final vote.
Very few of them are going to vote for the kind of Brexit that will be on offer at the end of this protracted process. The Brexit the Tories will deliver will be toxic to their poll chances for years to come. I expect the Commons will vote down the eventual agreement but we'll avoid the hard Brexit by having an election and withdrawing Article 50. (Can't be done? Watch this space in a couple of years!)
This is also wrong.
It's wrong because there will be deep political consequences well before the final deal sees the light of day as news of the various compromises comes out. The UK that votes on the deal will be a different place to the UK we're living in today.
You keep preaching what you hope for as facts beyond doubt.
No doubt when this fails to materialise you will simply push out the deadlines for your predictions being realised rather than admit you were wrong.
Like all fanatics (although you are - usually - a polite one) this makes engaging with you rather pointless.
And if it is a disastrous national humiliation, the electorate, whatever their prior view, will not deliver a thank you note.
One thing is for sure; the leave voting Morlocks won't be holding themselves responsible for the inevitable consequences. (Remainers are Eloi in this analogy)
Send that to James Chapman, he'll probably use it as a slogan.
Sort of on-topic: I'm increasingly unconfident about any Brexit bill passing the HoC.
There are too many people on both sides who have a vested interest in voting it down.
GE2017 truly was a disaster. May really did need that 60-80 majority to make it stick.
Which Tory MPs have a 'vested interest' in opposing the bill (Clarke and Soubry aside)?
If the Tories fail to deliver some kind of Brexit, they will be annihilated at the next election. They know that, hence some kind of Brexit will take place. As the only one available will be agreed by Barnier and Davis, that is what we'll get.
The interests of the Tory Party will take us out of the EU. Let's also remember the handful of Labour leavers who I expect to abstain on the final vote.
Rees Mogg et al may vote it down due to the bill.
If you have believed for years that it is in our national interest to leave the EU, why endanger it with a vote that may scupper the whole process? I don't believe he, Cash or any of the others would do it. They would never be forgiven.
They might see it as guaranteeing a full hard Brexit with no bill.
It's far, far too risky. They know that.
I agree. Getting to the point where we are legally outside the EU is crucially important. REMAIN then is otiose and must turn into the much more problematic REJOIN. Once we have left, even if initially in name only, puts LEAVE in a commanding position. Surely they are not daft enough to let that slip away by playing games in parliament.
US President Donald Trump has spoken out against racist violence after the killing of a protester in Charlottesville, Virginia, on Saturday. "Racism is evil and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs," he told reporters. Breaking news on BBC
And if it is a disastrous national humiliation, the electorate, whatever their prior view, will not deliver a thank you note.
One thing is for sure; the leave voting Morlocks won't be holding themselves responsible for the inevitable consequences. (Remainers are Eloi in this analogy)
Speaking for myself, I find it hard to get beyond Mr Cameron's dereliction of duty in not having made contingency plans for a Leave vote.
(I shall have to google your analogy, as it's meaningless to me )
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The 'Democrats' leadership would presumably include Chuka Umunna, Vince Cable, Anna Soubry etc with outside backing (maybe even standing for Parliament again) from Osborne and David Miliband and Lord Mandelson as godfather?
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
The 'Democrats' leadership would presumably include Chuka Umunna, Vince Cable, Anna Soubry etc with outside backing (maybe even standing for Parliament again) from Osborne and David Miliband and Lord Mandelson as godfather?
No Tony Blair?
That collection you list is repugnant.
A bunch of real we used to be but now we are not..
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
The public threw the arguments in the bin last June
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
The abuse to argument ratio in Mr Chapman's offerings is rather high, I think.
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
The public threw the arguments in the bin last June
You mean when they voted for an extra £350m a week to the NHS which was the main message of the officially designated campaign.
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
The 'Democrats' leadership would presumably include Chuka Umunna, Vince Cable, Anna Soubry etc with outside backing (maybe even standing for Parliament again) from Osborne and David Miliband and Lord Mandelson as godfather?
No Tony Blair?
That collection you list is repugnant.
A bunch of real we used to be but now we are not..
Blair would be sympathetic but would not endorse them as a former Labour leader unless they started getting clear and consistent poll leads. As you say it's key figures would be ex New Labour and ex Coalition diehards
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
The public threw the arguments in the bin last June
You mean when they voted for an extra £250m a week to the NHS.
The positioning for jobs in the Tory cabinet aka Vote Leave was a sideshow. Most of them probably don't care if we leave or not. But whatever their reasons, the public voted out
The EU was a big issue, and people wanted out. Praise the Lord
The 'Democrats' leadership would presumably include Chuka Umunna, Vince Cable, Anna Soubry etc with outside backing (maybe even standing for Parliament again) from Osborne and David Miliband and Lord Mandelson as godfather?
There is nothing to show that any of these people have any interest in a new party. It is much more productive to seek to influence the existing parties.
The 'Democrats' leadership would presumably include Chuka Umunna, Vince Cable, Anna Soubry etc with outside backing (maybe even standing for Parliament again) from Osborne and David Miliband and Lord Mandelson as godfather?
There is nothing to show that any of these people have any interest in a new party. It is much more productive to seek to influence the existing parties.
I agree FPTP is the biggest obstacle the Democrats champions face, if we had PR its formation would be inevitable
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
It's strange they pay so much attention to it. It's not a phenomenon - no one will remember his name in four months. He had a bit of juicy gossip is all - and there's not much else going on.
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
The public threw the arguments in the bin last June
You mean when they voted for an extra £250m a week to the NHS.
The positioning for jobs in the Tory cabinet aka Vote Leave was a sideshow. Most of them probably don't care if we leave or not. But whatever their reasons, the public voted out
The EU was a big issue, and people wanted out. Praise the Lord
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
I wasn't attacking the man, beyond calling him 'flakey', which I hope you'd accept is quite mild. I was making the point that his combination of ideas, abuse against specific individuals and random thoughts would not be given the time of day in normal circumstances. Your comments suggest my characterisation of the reaction of Remainers as a mixture of hope and hysteria was spot on.
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
The public threw the arguments in the bin last June
You mean when they voted for an extra £250m a week to the NHS.
The positioning for jobs in the Tory cabinet aka Vote Leave was a sideshow. Most of them probably don't care if we leave or not. But whatever their reasons, the public voted out
The EU was a big issue, and people wanted out. Praise the Lord
No. They wanted more money for the NHS
Maybe they'll get it when we leave? Let's see, can't wait!
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
The public threw the arguments in the bin last June
You mean when they voted for an extra £250m a week to the NHS.
The positioning for jobs in the Tory cabinet aka Vote Leave was a sideshow. Most of them probably don't care if we leave or not. But whatever their reasons, the public voted out
The EU was a big issue, and people wanted out. Praise the Lord
No. They wanted more money for the NHS
Maybe they'll get it when we leave? Let's see, can't wait!
Except that the figures were based on a lie which, as Chapman has observed, would result in prison sentences in parts of the old Commonwealth
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
It's strange they pay so much attention to it. It's not a phenomenon - no one will remember his name in four months. He had a bit of juicy gossip is all - and there's not much else going on.
Given all that has happened in recent couple of years, I don't think we can be sure this party isn't going to happen. It seems highly unlikely, and has ridiculously large obstacles, but given the times, maybe something will come of it.
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
The public threw the arguments in the bin last June
You mean when they voted for an extra £250m a week to the NHS.
The positioning for jobs in the Tory cabinet aka Vote Leave was a sideshow. Most of them probably don't care if we leave or not. But whatever their reasons, the public voted out
The EU was a big issue, and people wanted out. Praise the Lord
No. They wanted more money for the NHS
Maybe they'll get it when we leave? Let's see, can't wait!
Except that the figures were based on a lie which, as Chapman has observed, would result in prison sentences in parts of the old Commonwealth
Oh well it's all old news now. What's done is done. Thanks to the momentum UKIP built up with all those 2nd places in by elections and the 2015 GE we knew where to target.
Whatever happened to Vote Leave's four year framework? The leading members of that campaign are now in the cabinet, so where's the cross-party negotiating team? Where's the abolition of VAT on household energy? Where's the cash for the NHS?
Whatever happened to Vote Leave's four year framework? The leading members of that campaign are now in the cabinet, so where's the cross-party negotiating team? Where's the abolition of VAT on household energy? Where's the cash for the NHS?
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Indeed, Remainers are quite clear why voters chose to Leave... it's because they is thick. As it happens, I voted Remain. My reasons were founded in Project Fear, but, as many a psychologist will tell you, when you face your fears, you realise they aren't that frightening.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Indeed, Remainers are quite clear why voters chose to Leave... it's because they is thick. As it happens, I voted Remain. My reasons were founded in Project Fear, but, as many a psychologist will tell you, when you face your fears, you realise they aren't that frightening.
I nearly voted Remain as I thought that Cameron's Government would not lie to us that interest rates would immediately increase and the economy would immediately crash into a recession. 14 months later and they and the Treasury either lied or the Treasury are incompetent forecasters. Probably a mixture of both.
The leave majority on here piss me off with their arrogance and complete faith in an outcome that is unclear but seem to believe whatever happens its worth it. I've never seen a reasoned argument for leaving that would leave us better off with no obvious benefits to the man on the Clapham omnibus.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Indeed, Remainers are quite clear why voters chose to Leave... it's because they is thick. As it happens, I voted Remain. My reasons were founded in Project Fear, but, as many a psychologist will tell you, when you face your fears, you realise they aren't that frightening.
I nearly voted Remain as I thought that Cameron's Government would not lie to us that interest rates would immediately increase and the economy would immediately crash into a recession. 14 months later and they and the Treasury either lied or the Treasury are incompetent forecasters. Probably a mixture of both.
Spot on. All this talk of locking up Leavers, and 'where's our £350m' conveniently airbrushes the Treasury's apocalyptic visions and the government funded 'information' mailed out to every voter in the land. Chapman and his fellow travellers are on a fools' mission. No-one can genuinely argue that all the arguments were not put during the campaign ad infinitum by both sides, and that each voter was entitled to choose which argument/exaggeration/hyperbole or hero/villain/charlatan to believe. The voters voted. End of. Next...
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Indeed, Remainers are quite clear why voters chose to Leave... it's because they is thick. As it happens, I voted Remain. My reasons were founded in Project Fear, but, as many a psychologist will tell you, when you face your fears, you realise they aren't that frightening.
I nearly voted Remain as I thought that Cameron's Government would not lie to us that interest rates would immediately increase and the economy would immediately crash into a recession. 14 months later and they and the Treasury either lied or the Treasury are incompetent forecasters. Probably a mixture of both.
Spot on. All this talk of locking up Leavers, and 'where's our £350m' conveniently airbrushes the Treasury's apocalyptic visions and the government funded 'information' mailed out to every voter in the land. Chapman and his fellow travellers are on a fools' mission. No-one can genuinely argue that all the arguments were not put during the campaign ad infinitum by both sides, and that each voter was entitled to choose which argument/exaggeration/hyperbole or hero/villain/charlatan to believe. The voters voted. End of. Next...
The Treasury through Osborne said that an emergency budget would have to happen. What a dangerous joke that was.
The Leavil Dead always seem very keen to close down any discussion of the merits or otherwise accruing from their defining project. I wonder why that is?
The Chapman #democrats phenomenon is fascinating. If anyone on here, including seanT and others with extensive contacts books pumped out from their Greek holiday villa this stream of witless wishful thinking and personal abuse against Boris and others, they'd be totally ignored. Yet, simply because Mr C used to be a senior hack and then a senior Spad, and it's August, the Remain cult has dissolved into a frenzy of hope and anti-democratic hysteria. Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate. Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
The way the Brexiteers are going out of their way to try to rubbish Chapman at every opportunity suggests they're a tad worried. You don't kick a dead dog.
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
He has arguments?
Again proving my point.
You have a point?
I was a Remainer for as long as it was rationally possible to be such a thing - that is up to 10pm bst on 23/6/16. I think the greatest ever aphorism on politics was by that wily old Hun Bismarck: "Politics is the art of the possible." Continuity Remainers should have a think about what he meant by this.
As for Chapman, I'm seeing nothing beyond a failed attempt to initiate a twitterspat with Guido.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
We know something about the motivations of Leavers and Remainers because controlled opinion polls have asked the questions. So only 7% of Leave voters think Britain will be worse off economically after Brexit (only a small percentage of Remain think Britain WON'T be worse off). They also think the "ability to do deals" with the rest of the rest of the world is a benefit of Brexit. Etc
I can't say Leavers were wrong to vote the way they did. Leavers and Remainers voted for what they thought was right. I do however think most Leavers were operating off some seriously false premises about the outcomes and continue to do so. They will either have to accept the country being in a mess and worse off as a price to pay - in an after the event justification of their decision; or change their minds about Brexit; or continue to deny reality.
The Leavil Dead always seem very keen to close down any discussion of the merits or otherwise accruing from their defining project. I wonder why that is?
Well done. Leavil Dead. Ho Ho Ho.
I'm not shutting down debate on how we Brexit, I'm reminding those in Remain dreamland that we had a referendum campaign that was free and fair and decided that the UK should leave the EU. We've also had a general election campaign that skirted the issue but was dominated (82%) by parties committed to leaving the EU. The next question is how... Please give us your views.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
We know something about the motivations of Leavers and Remainers because controlled opinion polls have asked the questions. So only 7% of Leave voters think Britain will be worse off economically after Brexit (only a small percentage of Remain think Britain WON'T be worse off). They also think the "ability to do deals" with the rest of the rest of the world is a benefit of Brexit. Etc
I can't say Leavers were wrong to vote the way they did. Leavers and Remainers voted for what they thought was right. I do however think most Leavers were operating off some seriously false premises about the outcomes and continue to do so. They will either have to accept the country being in a mess and worse off as a price to pay - in an after the event justification of their decision; or change their minds about Brexit; or continue to deny reality.
Denying reality always seems to me the best option.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
The referendum no longer has any democratic legitimacy due to the propensity of leavers to die of old age. Which is, admittedly, their only redeeming feature.
On Nate Silver's chart he's at 37.4%. He's been lower - 36.6% - but these are dangerously low numbers, If he touches 35% on Nate's model, I think it's over.
The Leavil Dead always seem very keen to close down any discussion of the merits or otherwise accruing from their defining project. I wonder why that is?
Myself, and a few others that managed to escape being banned, made the case for leaving the EU on here thousands of times bermtween 2010-2016. We were dismissed by the hardcore Remainers as chasing an impossible dream. Apparently IPSOS MORIs Polls meant no one cared about the EU, even though they showed immigration was v important.
Ukip kept getting 25% of the vote in By elections where they'd previously lost their deposits, but EU lovers mocked them saying '2nd is useless in FPTP'
Then we won. Now it's over to the losers to make the case for rejoining.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
The referendum no longer has any democratic legitimacy due to the propensity of leavers to die of old age. Which is, admittedly, their only redeeming feature.
Now, you're being ridiculous. I could counter that the - larger, as it happens- group of people moving into the older age bracket balances this out, but I'm not so shallow nor statistically challenged to do so. Now, what are your views on how we Brexit, as the (living) voters decided?
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
We know something about the motivations of Leavers and Remainers because controlled opinion polls have asked the questions. So only 7% of Leave voters think Britain will be worse off economically after Brexit (only a small percentage of Remain think Britain WON'T be worse off). They also think the "ability to do deals" with the rest of the rest of the world is a benefit of Brexit. Etc
I can't say Leavers were wrong to vote the way they did. Leavers and Remainers voted for what they thought was right. I do however think most Leavers were operating off some seriously false premises about the outcomes and continue to do so. They will either have to accept the country being in a mess and worse off as a price to pay - in an after the event justification of their decision; or change their minds about Brexit; or continue to deny reality.
Denying reality always seems to me the best option.
I agree - as long as it's a pretence. "Declare victory and bring the boys home" sort of thing. But if you make decisions based on the false reality you will likely come a cropper. You carry on fighting your Vietnam because you think you will win.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
What has that got to do with 'venture capitalists' ?
On Nate Silver's chart he's at 37.4%. He's been lower - 36.6% - but these are dangerously low numbers, If he touches 35% on Nate's model, I think it's over.
For a PM in Britain or Germany, getting rid of them is straightforward. A simple vote will do it. To remove a US president who doesn't want to go - and he resembles Corbyn in more than being a wealthy mealy-mouthed populist - is very nearly impossible. Either he has to be impeached and convicted - a lengthy and difficult process that has only ever been completed once and has never removed a President from office - or he has to be certified insane by his cabinet, which has never been done at all and would therefore undoubtedly cause legal arguments that would drag on for years.
I do not think Trump will resign merely because people hate him. A more likely possibility will be he gets frustrated and throws things up in a fit of pique. But that would seem uncharacteristic for a man who survived the large number of avaoidable setbacks he had in business.
Unless he dies or something really drastic happens, we are stuck with him for four years. I doubt however if he will run for re-election.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
What has that got to do with 'venture capitalists' ?
And England hasn't been ripped apart. Far from.
Aside from that, well done!
I thought I heard a lot of people saying England was more divided than ever?
To be fair it was s bit of a throwaway comment that I thought sounded good. I forgot how many nitpickers there were in here.
The thrust of my point is there are a lot of very rich people in high places who profit from globalism destroying existing communities. I called them venture capitalists, if that's the wrong term, fair enough, my bad.
I think I meant asset strippers not venture capitalist
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
I think we're debating how the poor quality of the hinges was a factor in the horse taking the stable door with him when he bolted!
Although actually to my mind it resembles more two follicly challenged men arguing over whose comb it is.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
Actually there was only a modest difference between those earning below 20k and those over 60 k. The biggest predictor was education, followed by age.
"Groups vulnerable to poverty were more likely to support Brexit. Age, income and education matter, though it is educational inequality that was the strongest driver. Other things being equal, support for leave was 30 percentage points higher among those with GCSE qualifications or below than it was for people with a degree. In contrast, support for leave was just 10 points higher among those on less than £20,000 per year than it was among those with incomes of more than £60,000 per year, and 20 points higher among those aged 65 than those aged 25."
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
So when we have left will they see their wages rise if they actually still have a job?
Maybe, it was the only hope they had left
I think that we will have to totally scrap unemployment benifit to force people into jobs they don't want. Maybe not a bad thing but in some sectors, care homes etc, do we really want people doing the job that don't want it?
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
Actually there was only a modest difference between those earning below 20k and those over 60 k. The biggest predictor was education, followed by age.
"Groups vulnerable to poverty were more likely to support Brexit. Age, income and education matter, though it is educational inequality that was the strongest driver. Other things being equal, support for leave was 30 percentage points higher among those with GCSE qualifications or below than it was for people with a degree. In contrast, support for leave was just 10 points higher among those on less than £20,000 per year than it was among those with incomes of more than £60,000 per year, and 20 points higher among those aged 65 than those aged 25."
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
I think we're debating how the poor quality of the hinges was a factor in the horse taking the stable door with him when he bolted!
Although actually to my mind it resembles more two follicly challenged men arguing over whose comb it is.
That Otto quote in full:
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
Is that right, though?
Suppose Parliament passes legislation revoking Article 50. Suppose the government sends a letter to the EU saying that it is withdrawing its previous letter. What then happens?
This may all be hugely impractical, politically and in every other way. But those who are advocating the cancellation of Brexit must have some idea of how they would propose to do it. Surely?
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
So when we have left will they see their wages rise if they actually still have a job?
Maybe, it was the only hope they had left
I think that we will have to totally scrap unemployment benifit to force people into jobs they don't want. Maybe not a bad thing but in some sectors, care homes etc, do we really want people doing the job that don't want it?
People who refuse to take available unskilled/low skilled jobs shouldn't get unemployment benefit, I have been saying it on here for years
On Nate Silver's chart he's at 37.4%. He's been lower - 36.6% - but these are dangerously low numbers, If he touches 35% on Nate's model, I think it's over.
For a PM in Britain or Germany, getting rid of them is straightforward. A simple vote will do it. To remove a US president who doesn't want to go - and he resembles Corbyn in more than being a wealthy mealy-mouthed populist - is very nearly impossible. Either he has to be impeached and convicted - a lengthy and difficult process that has only ever been completed once and has never removed a President from office - or he has to be certified insane by his cabinet, which has never been done at all and would therefore undoubtedly cause legal arguments that would drag on for years.
I do not think Trump will resign merely because people hate him. A more likely possibility will be he gets frustrated and throws things up in a fit of pique. But that would seem uncharacteristic for a man who survived the large number of avaoidable setbacks he had in business.
Unless he dies or something really drastic happens, we are stuck with him for four years. I doubt however if he will run for re-election.
I agree with this summary in most respects but am genuinely baffled by one comment: Do you seriously think Trump and Corbyn resemble each other in being wealthy mealy-mouthed populists ?!?
On Nate Silver's chart he's at 37.4%. He's been lower - 36.6% - but these are dangerously low numbers, If he touches 35% on Nate's model, I think it's over.
For a PM in Britain or Germany, getting rid of them is straightforward. A simple vote will do it. To remove a US president who doesn't want to go - and he resembles Corbyn in more than being a wealthy mealy-mouthed populist - is very nearly impossible. Either he has to be impeached and convicted - a lengthy and difficult process that has only ever been completed once and has never removed a President from office - or he has to be certified insane by his cabinet, which has never been done at all and would therefore undoubtedly cause legal arguments that would drag on for years.
I do not think Trump will resign merely because people hate him. A more likely possibility will be he gets frustrated and throws things up in a fit of pique. But that would seem uncharacteristic for a man who survived the large number of avaoidable setbacks he had in business.
Unless he dies or something really drastic happens, we are stuck with him for four years. I doubt however if he will run for re-election.
I agree with this summary in most respects but am genuinely baffled by one comment: Do you seriously think Trump and Corbyn resemble each other in being wealthy mealy-mouthed populists ?!?
Do you not think they resemble each other in that way?
Trump is much richer than Corbyn, but otherwise they are in many crucial respects very similar. Both are members of the establishment they purport to despise, both offer huge numbers of goodies that they insist other people will pay for (what Hopi Sen called the 'would you like a pony?' policy approach) both will unhesitatingly support their allies no matter what awful things they do and both will equivocate or seek to turn the conversation to the less savoury aspects of their opponents when pressed.
Of course there are important differences as well - nuclear weapons and climate change spring to mind - but the similarities between them are far more than superficial.
Oh, and they are both very good campaigners but very incompetent administrators. And just to be cheeky, they both came a narrow second in the popular vote having been repeatedly written off as having no hope of doing well.
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
What has that got to do with 'venture capitalists' ?
And England hasn't been ripped apart. Far from.
Aside from that, well done!
I thought I heard a lot of people saying England was more divided than ever?
To be fair it was s bit of a throwaway comment that I thought sounded good. I forgot how many nitpickers there were in here.
The thrust of my point is there are a lot of very rich people in high places who profit from globalism destroying existing communities. I called them venture capitalists, if that's the wrong term, fair enough, my bad.
I think I meant asset strippers not venture capitalist
There's a lot of difference between being divided and being 'ripped apart'.
Asset strippers can be bad (mostly are IMV), but they're a world apart from VC, which is generally about creating, not destroying. And I'm unsure how asset strippers are ripping countries apart, either. Companies, yes. Countries, generally not.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
I think we're debating how the poor quality of the hinges was a factor in the horse taking the stable door with him when he bolted!
Although actually to my mind it resembles more two follicly challenged men arguing over whose comb it is.
That Otto quote in full:
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”.
“The statesman's task is to hear God's footsteps marching through history, and to try and catch on to His coattails as He marches past.”
History is marching away from Brexit. Do we have a statesman among us to sense the change in circumstances since last June?
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
People of working age voted Remain, it was the retired wot won it.
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
So when we have left will they see their wages rise if they actually still have a job?
Maybe, it was the only hope they had left
I think that we will have to totally scrap unemployment benifit to force people into jobs they don't want. Maybe not a bad thing but in some sectors, care homes etc, do we really want people doing the job that don't want it?
People who refuse to take available unskilled/low skilled jobs shouldn't get unemployment benefit, I have been saying it on here for years
Why do so many Remainers purport to know why Leavers voted leave?
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
Addicted to the profits of cheap/slave labour?
Maybe
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
The venture capitalists who rip countries apart to get richer are annoyed the people don't like it.
Which countries have 'venture capitalists' ripped apart?
England for one. Low paid workers have been laid off or undercut thanks to cheap EU Labour to boost the profits of corporate bosses. When they complain they're called racist, when they vote to leave they're called stupid.
What has that got to do with 'venture capitalists' ?
And England hasn't been ripped apart. Far from.
Aside from that, well done!
I thought I heard a lot of people saying England was more divided than ever?
To be fair it was s bit of a throwaway comment that I thought sounded good. I forgot how many nitpickers there were in here.
The thrust of my point is there are a lot of very rich people in high places who profit from globalism destroying existing communities. I called them venture capitalists, if that's the wrong term, fair enough, my bad.
I think I meant asset strippers not venture capitalist
There's a lot of difference between being divided and being 'ripped apart'.
Asset strippers can be bad (mostly are IMV), but they're a world apart from VC, which is generally about creating, not destroying. And I'm unsure how asset strippers are ripping countries apart, either. Companies, yes. Countries, generally not.
Yes I got the two mixed up. I think treating countries as companies has become a modern thing and has caused most of the current problems. Both major parties indulged it for too long, which resulted in UKIP 13%, Brexit 52% and Corbyn 40%
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
I think we're debating how the poor quality of the hinges was a factor in the horse taking the stable door with him when he bolted!
Although actually to my mind it resembles more two follicly challenged men arguing over whose comb it is.
That Otto quote in full:
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”.
“The statesman's task is to hear God's footsteps marching through history, and to try and catch on to His coattails as He marches past.”
History is marching away from Brexit. Do we have a statesman among us to sense the change in circumstances since last June?
Mr Glenn: that is a good jury speech. But how would you answer my 3 questions? Genuinely curious.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
I think we're debating how the poor quality of the hinges was a factor in the horse taking the stable door with him when he bolted!
Although actually to my mind it resembles more two follicly challenged men arguing over whose comb it is.
That Otto quote in full:
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”.
“The statesman's task is to hear God's footsteps marching through history, and to try and catch on to His coattails as He marches past.”
History is marching away from Brexit. Do we have a statesman among us to sense the change in circumstances since last June?
Mr Glenn: that is a good jury speech. But how would you answer my 3 questions? Genuinely curious.
I'll try and answer.
1. Gain enough votes and claim that people have changed their minds.
2. Retract Art 50. The rest of the EU will be relieved and agree to it.
3. See 1.
Don't think any of this will happen though. Brexit may be difficult, but I believe it is still the right course of action for us.
“The statesman's task is to hear God's footsteps marching through history, and to try and catch on to His coattails as He marches past.”
History is marching away from Brexit. Do we have a statesman among us to sense the change in circumstances since last June?
I'd be very careful about making claims on which way history will go. It's not that long ago that Khrushchev told Eisenhower with a straight face that the ineluctable logic of history meant Eisenhower's grandson would be a Communist. Khrushchev's son Sergei is now not only a capitalist, but an American. (Khrushchev would of course as firm atheist not have invoked God either, but that's a side issue.)
The simple fact is we none of us know what will happen next (hence 'uncertainty'). We may get a deal, although that seems less likely than that we won't. We may change our minds and apply to stay in, although that seems less probable than departure given the dates. We may have a decline in trade, or an increase in internal markets to make up, although the latter seems less likely.
As a Remainer, I am still angry with the way the EU has behaved (and is behaving) and am content for the moment to wait on events as they have forfeited my loyalty and any inclination I might have to keep campaigning against the result with their petulance. It has been appallingly mishandled by the Commission, who will surely now be sacked en bloc at the earliest possible moment if it wishes to retain any vestige of credibility.
What is becoming clear is that those who referred to it as corrupt, federalistic and undemocratic have been proven absolutely right. I suspect those who predicted economic hardship are right too, but we will have to live through that to convince them the way living through this last year has opened the EU to more scrutiny. That's not a nice thought, but your increasingly hysterical posts and those of the likes of Chapman are doing no good and possibly more harm. Do you honestly think posing as a medium is going to convince anyone you are right? Just as Chapman calling for people he has quarrelled with (and that is what is at the root of his behaviour) to be arrested makes him look anything other than an absolute Tristram?
Calm down, return to facts and see if people are willing to engage on that basis. If nothing else it gives you the moral high ground when they don't.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
Is that right, though?
Suppose Parliament passes legislation revoking Article 50. Suppose the government sends a letter to the EU saying that it is withdrawing its previous letter. What then happens?
This may all be hugely impractical, politically and in every other way. But those who are advocating the cancellation of Brexit must have some idea of how they would propose to do it. Surely?
On Nate Silver's chart he's at 37.4%. He's been lower - 36.6% - but these are dangerously low numbers, If he touches 35% on Nate's model, I think it's over.
Unless he dies or something really drastic happens, we are stuck with him for four years. I doubt however if he will run for re-election.
I agree with this summary in most respects but am genuinely baffled by one comment: Do you seriously think Trump and Corbyn resemble each other in being wealthy mealy-mouthed populists ?!?
Do you not think they resemble each other in that way?
Trump is much richer than Corbyn, but otherwise they are in many crucial respects very similar. Both are members of the establishment they purport to despise, both offer huge numbers of goodies that they insist other people will pay for (what Hopi Sen called the 'would you like a pony?' policy approach) both will unhesitatingly support their allies no matter what awful things they do and both will equivocate or seek to turn the conversation to the less savoury aspects of their opponents when pressed.
Of course there are important differences as well - nuclear weapons and climate change spring to mind - but the similarities between them are far more than superficial.
Oh, and they are both very good campaigners but very incompetent administrators. And just to be cheeky, they both came a narrow second in the popular vote having been repeatedly written off as having no hope of doing well.
Ok, I quite like the outrageousness of your suggestion! There are some similarities (both good campaigners, both wierdly charismatic, neither follow conventional political wisdom).
But many, many more differences imo. For example:
Trump is nasty; Corbyn is (possibly too) nice. Trump was born mega-rich; Corbyn just middle-class comfortable. Trump is unprincipled; Corbyn is (too) principled. Trump trashes those around him; Corbyn is loyal to his supporters. Trump is illiterate; Corbyn not. Trump is narcissic; Corbyn not.
... I could go on.
As for getting rid of Trump, why would the Democrats want to do that just now? He's clearly ineffective and if he went now they'd have Pence as POTUS. Better to let an ieffective Trump continue to drag the GOP down until 2020. I can see they might impeach him (i.e. start the process) but they wouldn't really want him to resign ahead of 2020.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
That is exactly the point. There is no mechanism. The course has been set, for all practical purposes, since the referendum, and since the invocation of Article 50 it is also set in legal terms. It really is bizarre that so much effort is going into discussion of quality of the hinges on the stable door.
Is that right, though?
Suppose Parliament passes legislation revoking Article 50. Suppose the government sends a letter to the EU saying that it is withdrawing its previous letter. What then happens?
This may all be hugely impractical, politically and in every other way. But those who are advocating the cancellation of Brexit must have some idea of how they would propose to do it. Surely?
I don't think there is a majority (or anything close to a majority) in the Commons to revoke A50.
Comments
1. Extend A50.
2. Revoke A50
3. Crash out.
1 & 2 are not fully in our control
2 would require legislation
3 would require extensive preparatory work to avoid logistical and legal chaos.
I wonder what would happen.
"Racism is evil and those who cause violence in its name are criminals and thugs," he told reporters.
Breaking news on BBC
No doubt when this fails to materialise you will simply push out the deadlines for your predictions being realised rather than admit you were wrong.
Like all fanatics (although you are - usually - a polite one) this makes engaging with you rather pointless.
(I shall have to google your analogy, as it's meaningless to me
If I'm wrong, and it takes off to wild acclaim, then I'll still not be interested either.
Let's see who turns up to his rally on 9/9, who this group's leaders will be and what they have in common as policy other than reversing the democratically expressed view of the British electorate.
Will Shadsy offer a price on The Democrats fielding a candidate in a parliamentary election other than the flakey Mr Chapman?
Notice how they go or the man not the arguments.
That collection you list is repugnant.
A bunch of real we used to be but now we are not..
The EU was a big issue, and people wanted out. Praise the Lord
I was making the point that his combination of ideas, abuse against specific individuals and random thoughts would not be given the time of day in normal circumstances.
Your comments suggest my characterisation of the reaction of Remainers as a mixture of hope and hysteria was spot on.
Happy Days
I think I would be classed as one of the most pro NHS Leavers on here I didn't vote leave because of any extra monies supposed to be coming its way.
Shall all the Leavers now state why the Remainers voted Remain???
https://www.twitter.com/vote_leave/status/743185226470305792
Global Business certainly seems to be telling the people what type of BREXIT they will allow the Democratically elected Politicians to negotiate.
The Elite just dont get it. We have had enough.
12,878,460 Votes out of 32,203,481 cast is 39.99%.
Of course, Justin will be along shortly to protest that if you exclude Northern Ireland the figure rises slightly.
Should I get my coat before then?
https://twitter.com/rosaltmann/status/897153810031927297
Spot on from The Donald
A party standing for abolition of the Monarchy, and with a New Model Army approach to trouble.
Chapman and his fellow travellers are on a fools' mission. No-one can genuinely argue that all the arguments were not put during the campaign ad infinitum by both sides, and that each voter was entitled to choose which argument/exaggeration/hyperbole or hero/villain/charlatan to believe.
The voters voted. End of.
Next...
What a dangerous joke that was.
I was a Remainer for as long as it was rationally possible to be such a thing - that is up to 10pm bst on 23/6/16. I think the greatest ever aphorism on politics was by that wily old Hun Bismarck: "Politics is the art of the possible." Continuity Remainers should have a think about what he meant by this.
As for Chapman, I'm seeing nothing beyond a failed attempt to initiate a twitterspat with Guido.
1. Given the referendum result, how does any party or group wanting to put a halt to Brexit, gain the necessary democratic legitimacy to enact such a policy?
2. How does such a decision get agreed with the rest of the EU? Is it cancellation of Article 50 so that Britain remains on the same terms as before (minus Cameron's deal) or is it on some new basis?
3. And if the latter, does that require approval by voters?
I can understand all the arguments put forward that Brexit is more complicated and damaging than thought, that our government is proving itself incompetent or has drawn unnecessary red lines etc. But what I don't understand is how those making such arguments propose to achieve what they want and get the necessary democratic backing for it.
I can't say Leavers were wrong to vote the way they did. Leavers and Remainers voted for what they thought was right. I do however think most Leavers were operating off some seriously false premises about the outcomes and continue to do so. They will either have to accept the country being in a mess and worse off as a price to pay - in an after the event justification of their decision; or change their minds about Brexit; or continue to deny reality.
I'm not shutting down debate on how we Brexit, I'm reminding those in Remain dreamland that we had a referendum campaign that was free and fair and decided that the UK should leave the EU.
We've also had a general election campaign that skirted the issue but was dominated (82%) by parties committed to leaving the EU.
The next question is how...
Please give us your views.
https://twitter.com/brianklaas/status/897143844772433920
JRM led Tories will feast on roasted kipper babies.
https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/trump-approval-ratings/?ex_cid=rrpromo
Ukip kept getting 25% of the vote in By elections where they'd previously lost their deposits, but EU lovers mocked them saying '2nd is useless in FPTP'
Then we won. Now it's over to the losers to make the case for rejoining.
I could counter that the - larger, as it happens- group of people moving into the older age bracket balances this out, but I'm not so shallow nor statistically challenged to do so.
Now, what are your views on how we Brexit, as the (living) voters decided?
And England hasn't been ripped apart. Far from.
Aside from that, well done!
For a PM in Britain or Germany, getting rid of them is straightforward. A simple vote will do it. To remove a US president who doesn't want to go - and he resembles Corbyn in more than being a wealthy mealy-mouthed populist - is very nearly impossible. Either he has to be impeached and convicted - a lengthy and difficult process that has only ever been completed once and has never removed a President from office - or he has to be certified insane by his cabinet, which has never been done at all and would therefore undoubtedly cause legal arguments that would drag on for years.
I do not think Trump will resign merely because people hate him. A more likely possibility will be he gets frustrated and throws things up in a fit of pique. But that would seem uncharacteristic for a man who survived the large number of avaoidable setbacks he had in business.
Unless he dies or something really drastic happens, we are stuck with him for four years. I doubt however if he will run for re-election.
To be fair it was s bit of a throwaway comment that I thought sounded good. I forgot how many nitpickers there were in here.
The thrust of my point is there are a lot of very rich people in high places who profit from globalism destroying existing communities. I called them venture capitalists, if that's the wrong term, fair enough, my bad.
I think I meant asset strippers not venture capitalist
Although actually to my mind it resembles more two follicly challenged men arguing over whose comb it is.
"Groups vulnerable to poverty were more likely to support Brexit. Age, income and education matter, though it is educational inequality that was the strongest driver. Other things being equal, support for leave was 30 percentage points higher among those with GCSE qualifications or below than it was for people with a degree. In contrast, support for leave was just 10 points higher among those on less than £20,000 per year than it was among those with incomes of more than £60,000 per year, and 20 points higher among those aged 65 than those aged 25."
https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/brexit-vote-explained-poverty-low-skills-and-lack-opportunities
“Politics is the art of the possible, the attainable — the art of the next best”.
Suppose Parliament passes legislation revoking Article 50. Suppose the government sends a letter to the EU saying that it is withdrawing its previous letter. What then happens?
This may all be hugely impractical, politically and in every other way. But those who are advocating the cancellation of Brexit must have some idea of how they would propose to do it. Surely?
Trump is much richer than Corbyn, but otherwise they are in many crucial respects very similar. Both are members of the establishment they purport to despise, both offer huge numbers of goodies that they insist other people will pay for (what Hopi Sen called the 'would you like a pony?' policy approach) both will unhesitatingly support their allies no matter what awful things they do and both will equivocate or seek to turn the conversation to the less savoury aspects of their opponents when pressed.
Of course there are important differences as well - nuclear weapons and climate change spring to mind - but the similarities between them are far more than superficial.
Oh, and they are both very good campaigners but very incompetent administrators. And just to be cheeky, they both came a narrow second in the popular vote having been repeatedly written off as having no hope of doing well.
Asset strippers can be bad (mostly are IMV), but they're a world apart from VC, which is generally about creating, not destroying. And I'm unsure how asset strippers are ripping countries apart, either. Companies, yes. Countries, generally not.
https://twitter.com/kylegriffin1/status/897150223528509440
History is marching away from Brexit. Do we have a statesman among us to sense the change in circumstances since last June?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/world-europe-40929625/stuck-container-ship-in-hot-water
That's going to cost someone a lot of money? Who would it be, the captain or the port pilot?
1. Gain enough votes and claim that people have changed their minds.
2. Retract Art 50. The rest of the EU will be relieved and agree to it.
3. See 1.
Don't think any of this will happen though. Brexit may be difficult, but I believe it is still the right course of action for us.
Those ships are huuugge.
The simple fact is we none of us know what will happen next (hence 'uncertainty'). We may get a deal, although that seems less likely than that we won't. We may change our minds and apply to stay in, although that seems less probable than departure given the dates. We may have a decline in trade, or an increase in internal markets to make up, although the latter seems less likely.
As a Remainer, I am still angry with the way the EU has behaved (and is behaving) and am content for the moment to wait on events as they have forfeited my loyalty and any inclination I might have to keep campaigning against the result with their petulance. It has been appallingly mishandled by the Commission, who will surely now be sacked en bloc at the earliest possible moment if it wishes to retain any vestige of credibility.
What is becoming clear is that those who referred to it as corrupt, federalistic and undemocratic have been proven absolutely right. I suspect those who predicted economic hardship are right too, but we will have to live through that to convince them the way living through this last year has opened the EU to more scrutiny. That's not a nice thought, but your increasingly hysterical posts and those of the likes of Chapman are doing no good and possibly more harm. Do you honestly think posing as a medium is going to convince anyone you are right? Just as Chapman calling for people he has quarrelled with (and that is what is at the root of his behaviour) to be arrested makes him look anything other than an absolute Tristram?
Calm down, return to facts and see if people are willing to engage on that basis. If nothing else it gives you the moral high ground when they don't.
But many, many more differences imo. For example:
Trump is nasty; Corbyn is (possibly too) nice.
Trump was born mega-rich; Corbyn just middle-class comfortable.
Trump is unprincipled; Corbyn is (too) principled.
Trump trashes those around him; Corbyn is loyal to his supporters.
Trump is illiterate; Corbyn not.
Trump is narcissic; Corbyn not.
... I could go on.
As for getting rid of Trump, why would the Democrats want to do that just now? He's clearly ineffective and if he went now they'd have Pence as POTUS. Better to let an ieffective Trump continue to drag the GOP down until 2020. I can see they might impeach him (i.e. start the process) but they wouldn't really want him to resign ahead of 2020.
Here's your light summer jacket, sir.