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  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    The graph shows the rise trending downwards before hitting zero in 2015. I take it you can't extrapolate.
    It's trended down before and gone up again. No evidence here that it is dropping.. not yet!
    how can you trend down and not be dropping
    If its a rate of increase.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    The graph shows the rise trending downwards before hitting zero in 2015. I take it you can't extrapolate.
    I take it you can't read graphs that go back more than a few years.
    Don't know wtf you're on about.
    The change in retirement age won't come with the caveat that it will go back to 67 if life expectancy doesn't rise, that's for sure.
    Look at the graph for the increase in life expectancy since WW2. In that time life expectancy has gone up from 64 to 81 years. There have been individual years when it has not risen or has dropped back slightly but overall the change has always been one way. Whilst that is no guarantee that that will continue, the fact that it is slowing at the moment is meaningless in the overall picture of improvement. We will only now if it was significant in 10 or 15 years time.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056
    Afternoon all :)

    Fascinating development:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40658993

    Grayling has invited ASLEF and the RMT to talks subject to the strikes and overtime ban being suspended to which the unions have agreed.

    After months of anti-Union haranguing, the Government are now intervening perhaps to bring all sides together but it marks an interesting switch in emphasis from a Conservative Government.

    Talking to Unions - beer and sandwiches at No. 10 next ?
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    edited July 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    I can't say I have a huge problem with £200k for Neil or Kuenssberg, especially as they are doing way more than just reading the autocue. They are proper journalists and I doubt LK ever switches off her mobile.

    Some of the R2 DJs on the other hand, my god e.g. Jeremy Vine.

    We also already know there is a load of presenter on just below the £150k level. Again some no-name only reading the autocue on BBC News in the middle of the night, that seems a very well paid gig, when lots of journalists won't get near that.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,142
    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    The graph shows the rise trending downwards before hitting zero in 2015. I take it you can't extrapolate.
    It's trended down before and gone up again. No evidence here that it is dropping.. not yet!
    how can you trend down and not be dropping
    Life expectancy is still going up, albeit a lot slower.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    And I would love to be able to provide it, but that's going to be very tricky. The evidence is circumstantial but it's at least conceivable that austerity has had an effect.

    In the article Sir Michael Marmot, director of the Institute of Health Equity at UCL, said:
    it was "entirely possible" austerity had played a role. He explained social factors such as education, employment and working conditions and poverty all affected life expectancy by influencing lifestyles. And as austerity was placing pressures on these, they may in turn be influencing life expectancy. He also highlighted what he said was "miserly" funding settlements for the NHS and social care, which meant the quality of life for older people would have deteriorated and could well affect their life expectancy.
    As soon as I got to the phrase "Health Equity" I realised that the bloke has a paid-for political agenda.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?


    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    And I would love to be able to provide it, but that's going to be very tricky. The evidence is circumstantial but it's at least conceivable that austerity has had an effect.

    In the article Sir Michael Marmot, director of the Institute of Health Equity at UCL, said:
    it was "entirely possible" austerity had played a role. He explained social factors such as education, employment and working conditions and poverty all affected life expectancy by influencing lifestyles. And as austerity was placing pressures on these, they may in turn be influencing life expectancy. He also highlighted what he said was "miserly" funding settlements for the NHS and social care, which meant the quality of life for older people would have deteriorated and could well affect their life expectancy.
    It's "entirely possible" that many things can play a role.

    In any case, the report does not say life expectancy has fallen, rather the rate of increase has slowed.
    Agreed - slowed to virtually nothing... after a couple of centuries of steady increase.

    If a link to austerity does exist could there be a greater example of a government failing in its duty to protect and improve the lives of its citizens?
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    GeoffM said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    And I would love to be able to provide it, but that's going to be very tricky. The evidence is circumstantial but it's at least conceivable that austerity has had an effect.

    In the article Sir Michael Marmot, director of the Institute of Health Equity at UCL, said:
    it was "entirely possible" austerity had played a role. He explained social factors such as education, employment and working conditions and poverty all affected life expectancy by influencing lifestyles. And as austerity was placing pressures on these, they may in turn be influencing life expectancy. He also highlighted what he said was "miserly" funding settlements for the NHS and social care, which meant the quality of life for older people would have deteriorated and could well affect their life expectancy.
    As soon as I got to the phrase "Health Equity" I realised that the bloke has a paid-for political agenda.
    Doesn't mean austerity is not to blame though does it?
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520

    Sandpit said:

    Okay, another brief delurk to laugh at the BBC. Given that the media in general love nothing more than talking about themselves this is going to run for days as everyone compares their salaries.

    A few notes on the list:

    The worst excesses, as always, are in radio. BBC are top of the tree in this medium, the biggest earners have been there for decades and are less likely to get poached by commercial media. They could probably cut every one of those on the list to under £150k and they wouldn't complain.

    Graham Norton - this published salary is for his radio and Eurovision work - his TV show is made by his own production company (So Television) who pay him separately.

    Chris Evans - this may include some Top Gear salary from last year, although most of his earnings from that show will come from Worldwide royalties. Ditto why Matt Le Blanc doesn't appear on the list.

    There will be loads of others they've managed to get 'off the books' in similar ways, by subcontracting production or paying a basic 'salary' and a large bonus from Worldwide. Also people who are genuine contractors, working for a number of media outlets.

    Lineker - I know footballer salaries are mad, but does he really deserve nearly 12,000 licence fees? People are going to watch MOTD no matter who presents it.

    Don't recognise most of the entertainment names, I guess mainly from Eastenders and the dancing show. What did we pay Emilia Clarke £200k for, she's the young actress from Game of Thrones who can't act but can get naked?!

    Alex Jones must have a really good agent, she was a regional TV nobody five years ago when the One Show picked her up - can only guess that someone tried to poach her and the Beeb matched the offer to avoid changing the lineup of the show twice in quick succession.

    News - this is obviously where most of the media attention will be, as 20 people there earn more than the PM, plus the original 'autocutie' Fiona Bruce. The only salary justified there is Andrew Neil, but does even he really deserve to earn twice as much as the ministers he holds to account? An interesting side effect will be if people in other TV news organisations (ITV, C4, Sky) get asked about their salaries. I'd guess Adam Boulton is probably on close to £1m at Sky for example.

    If Emilia Clarke is in GoT she is not on the BBC. Emilia Fox plays the lead in Silent Witness, a long-running BBC series about crime-fighting pathologists. Chris Evans has the biggest radio audience in the country and one imagines rival broadcasters would open their cheque books for popular entertainers like Evans or Graham Norton, who have established track records over more than one programme.
    Ah feck, I did indeed confuse two actresses with the same first name there.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Pointer, do you think there's no upper limit to human life expectancy? That's the logical conclusion of thinking life expectancy will continually increase as a matter of course.

    It's possible technology may alter the natural state of affairs, but we aren't there yet.

    Indeed, the obesity time bomb has often been used to suggest the generation born in the 1990s may live shorter lives than those of earlier decades. I remember reading at school the optimistic assessment people of my age might reach 130, but those born later might have shorter lives.

    Then there's the increase in antibiotic resistant disease to consider as well.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    I can't say I have a huge problem with £200k for Neil or Kuenssberg, especially as they are doing way more than just reading the autocue. They are proper journalists and I doubt LK ever switches off her mobile.

    Some of the R2 DJs on the other hand, my god e.g. Jeremy Vine.

    We also already know there is a load of presenter on just below the £150k level. Again some no-name only reading the autocue on BBC News in the middle of the night, that seems a very well paid gig, when lots of journalists won't get near that.
    The free market at work eh?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    I can't say I have a huge problem with £200k for Neil or Kuenssberg, especially as they are doing way more than just reading the autocue. They are proper journalists and I doubt LK ever switches off her mobile.

    Some of the R2 DJs on the other hand, my god e.g. Jeremy Vine.

    We also already know there is a load of presenter on just below the £150k level. Again some no-name only reading the autocue on BBC News in the middle of the night, that seems a very well paid gig, when lots of journalists won't get near that.
    The free market at work eh?
    Not with the BBC, obviously, no.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Mr. Pointer, do you think there's no upper limit to human life expectancy? That's the logical conclusion of thinking life expectancy will continually increase as a matter of course.

    It's possible technology may alter the natural state of affairs, but we aren't there yet.

    Indeed, the obesity time bomb has often been used to suggest the generation born in the 1990s may live shorter lives than those of earlier decades. I remember reading at school the optimistic assessment people of my age might reach 130, but those born later might have shorter lives.

    Then there's the increase in antibiotic resistant disease to consider as well.

    I plan to live forever.

    So far, so good.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. M, careful. It didn't work out for Tithonus.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    FPT
    Brom said
    'If the match is good people will watch. Des Lynam or Lineker it does not matter. They are just smooth linkmen and not irreplaceable. Lineker no doubt likes his BBC profile to keep him in the papers and to earn more from Walkers. Does he justify £1.8m? Of course not'

    I agree with that. Lineker is a nice guy - but in no sense is he a top class polished broadcaster! He started off being embarassingly poor in the 1990s when he took over from Des Lynam , and whilst he has improved with time he has never come close to matching Lynam in terms of underlying talent for such a role. He has always lacked a certain natural authority and has not been well blessed in terms of charisma or strength of personality. People like Alan Hansen invariably outshone him and were more obviously the stars of the programme - as were Jimmy Hill and Bob Wilson in earlier years. David Coleman, Frank Bough et al were journalists who became good professional broadcasters, whilst Lineker was a good footballer perceived to be squeaky clean and a nice guy but never a natural broadcaster. Why would the BBC have wished to invest considerable resources in training him up to be just 'OK' when there must have been other more naturally talented journalists available who would have done the job better at a fraction of the cost?To me it is beyond belief that people tune into MOTD just because he appears on it. Viewing figures are well down anyway compared with when he took over. Who seriously would wish to switch to Sky just to watch Lineker?What he is paid is obscene -and not based on merit at all - and I sympathise with those inclined to withold their License Payments in protest at such abuse of revenues.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    stodge said:

    Afternoon all :)

    Fascinating development:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-40658993

    Grayling has invited ASLEF and the RMT to talks subject to the strikes and overtime ban being suspended to which the unions have agreed.

    After months of anti-Union haranguing, the Government are now intervening perhaps to bring all sides together but it marks an interesting switch in emphasis from a Conservative Government.

    Talking to Unions - beer and sandwiches at No. 10 next ?

    The Gibb report has somewhat weakened the unions' hands:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/619795/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail.pdf

    Note it is more complex than just blaming the unions - there are other factors as well (including much less publicised ones such as the location of depots). But it's clear the unions are the most important of all these factors. They are most to blame for the disruption to passengers.
  • nigel4englandnigel4england Posts: 4,800

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    I can't say I have a huge problem with £200k for Neil or Kuenssberg, especially as they are doing way more than just reading the autocue. They are proper journalists and I doubt LK ever switches off her mobile.

    Some of the R2 DJs on the other hand, my god e.g. Jeremy Vine.

    We also already know there is a load of presenter on just below the £150k level. Again some no-name only reading the autocue on BBC News in the middle of the night, that seems a very well paid gig, when lots of journalists won't get near that.
    £400k for the inane drivel spouted by Alan Shearer is for me the most astonishing revelation.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Mr. M, careful. It didn't work out for Tithonus.

    That was the fault of Eos, though, and I'd like to think I've learned from her mistake.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    GeoffM said:

    Mr. Pointer, do you think there's no upper limit to human life expectancy? That's the logical conclusion of thinking life expectancy will continually increase as a matter of course.

    It's possible technology may alter the natural state of affairs, but we aren't there yet.

    Indeed, the obesity time bomb has often been used to suggest the generation born in the 1990s may live shorter lives than those of earlier decades. I remember reading at school the optimistic assessment people of my age might reach 130, but those born later might have shorter lives.

    Then there's the increase in antibiotic resistant disease to consider as well.

    I plan to live forever.

    So far, so good.
    My experience is that few seem to enjoy life much after 95 years at the top end and the mid 70's for many.

    The obesity epidemic also means that shrinking longevity is very possible.

  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    GeoffM said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    And I would love to be able to provide it, but that's going to be very tricky. The evidence is circumstantial but it's at least conceivable that austerity has had an effect.

    In the article Sir Michael Marmot, director of the Institute of Health Equity at UCL, said:
    it was "entirely possible" austerity had played a role. He explained social factors such as education, employment and working conditions and poverty all affected life expectancy by influencing lifestyles. And as austerity was placing pressures on these, they may in turn be influencing life expectancy. He also highlighted what he said was "miserly" funding settlements for the NHS and social care, which meant the quality of life for older people would have deteriorated and could well affect their life expectancy.
    As soon as I got to the phrase "Health Equity" I realised that the bloke has a paid-for political agenda.

    I am missing some health equity in my lower back. It needs an injection of equity to boost the capital.
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056


    The Gibb report has somewhat weakened the unions' hands:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/619795/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail.pdf

    Note it is more complex than just blaming the unions - there are other factors as well (including much less publicised ones such as the location of depots). But it's clear the unions are the most important of all these factors. They are most to blame for the disruption to passengers.

    You'd think the Government would be shoving Gibb in the Unions' faces and telling them to end the nonsense but instead Grayling offers a meeting.

    I find it curious and interesting and suspect it wouldn't have happened if May had won the 100-150 seat majority many were predicting just six weeks ago.

  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?


    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    And I would love to be able to provide it, but that's going to be very tricky. The evidence is circumstantial but it's at least conceivable that austerity has had an effect.

    In the article Sir Michael Marmot, director of the Institute of Health Equity at UCL, said:
    it was "entirely possible" austerity had played a role. He explained social factors such as education, employment and working conditions er people would have deteriorated and could well affect their life expectancy.
    It's "entirely possible" that many things can play a role.

    In any case, the report does not say life expectancy has fallen, rather the rate of increase has slowed.
    Agreed - slowed to virtually nothing... after a couple of centuries of steady increase.

    If a link to austerity does exist could there be a greater example of a government failing in its duty to protect and improve the lives of its citizens?

    Not if austerity is necessary, which I believe it is. In 2010, the government was spending £4 for every £3 it raised. Failing to deal with that would entail very savage cuts in public spending down the line.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Mr. Pointer, do you think there's no upper limit to human life expectancy? That's the logical conclusion of thinking life expectancy will continually increase as a matter of course.

    It's possible technology may alter the natural state of affairs, but we aren't there yet.

    Indeed, the obesity time bomb has often been used to suggest the generation born in the 1990s may live shorter lives than those of earlier decades. I remember reading at school the optimistic assessment people of my age might reach 130, but those born later might have shorter lives.

    Then there's the increase in antibiotic resistant disease to consider as well.

    I plan to live forever.

    So far, so good.
    My experience is that few seem to enjoy life much after 95 years at the top end and the mid 70's for many.

    The obesity epidemic also means that shrinking longevity is very possible.

    That was the point of the Tithonus story from Mr Dancer. Eos' mistake is the plea to the Zeus of eternal life but not eternal youth - so he decays but does not ever die.

    My grandfather recently passed away at 97. I would not seek to emulate his final years.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. M, he became the first grasshopper, apparently.

    (Tithonus, that is).

  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited July 2017
    Meh
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    stodge said:


    The Gibb report has somewhat weakened the unions' hands:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/619795/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail.pdf

    Note it is more complex than just blaming the unions - there are other factors as well (including much less publicised ones such as the location of depots). But it's clear the unions are the most important of all these factors. They are most to blame for the disruption to passengers.

    You'd think the Government would be shoving Gibb in the Unions' faces and telling them to end the nonsense but instead Grayling offers a meeting.

    I find it curious and interesting and suspect it wouldn't have happened if May had won the 100-150 seat majority many were predicting just six weeks ago.
    Perhaps the meeting is to shove it under their faces in person. ;)
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2017
    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    Mr. Pointer, do you think there's no upper limit to human life expectancy? That's the logical conclusion of thinking life expectancy will continually increase as a matter of course.

    It's possible technology may alter the natural state of affairs, but we aren't there yet.

    Indeed, the obesity time bomb has often been used to suggest the generation born in the 1990s may live shorter lives than those of earlier decades. I remember reading at school the optimistic assessment people of my age might reach 130, but those born later might have shorter lives.

    Then there's the increase in antibiotic resistant disease to consider as well.

    I plan to live forever.

    So far, so good.
    My experience is that few seem to enjoy life much after 95 years at the top end and the mid 70's for many.

    The obesity epidemic also means that shrinking longevity is very possible.

    That was the point of the Tithonus story from Mr Dancer. Eos' mistake is the plea to the Zeus of eternal life but not eternal youth - so he decays but does not ever die.

    My grandfather recently passed away at 97. I would not seek to emulate his final years.
    The age at death of my grandparents varied from 86 years to 98, so actuarially I need to plan for a long retirement. Fortunately with NHS superannuation, I can, though may go part time in a couple of years.

    My 98 year old granny was pretty fit and mentally strong, but her last years were little pleasure, after she outlived her husband by a couple of years and all of her contemporaries.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,533
    Anybody else think that the fiasco that is implementation of Universal Credit does not bode well for the complexity of this government/civil service delivering Brexit, in particular any new IT infrastructure for things like farmers payments and customs stuff?
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    stodge said:


    The Gibb report has somewhat weakened the unions' hands:
    https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/619795/chris-gibb-report-southern-rail.pdf

    Note it is more complex than just blaming the unions - there are other factors as well (including much less publicised ones such as the location of depots). But it's clear the unions are the most important of all these factors. They are most to blame for the disruption to passengers.

    You'd think the Government would be shoving Gibb in the Unions' faces and telling them to end the nonsense but instead Grayling offers a meeting.

    I find it curious and interesting and suspect it wouldn't have happened if May had won the 100-150 seat majority many were predicting just six weeks ago.
    Perhaps the meeting is to shove it under their faces in person. ;)
    I'd like to hope that the unions are invited to turn up at the building featured in the Monty Python Architects Sketch

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DyL5mAqFJds
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506
    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    If not approved then there certainly will not be any money left to pay state pensions in 20 years time.

    State pensions are unfunded and depend on future governments getting approval to tax enough to pay future state pensions.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Jessop, when Roman 'negotiators' met a certain Macedonian king (I forget who, maybe a Perseus) on a beach, the Roman got a stick, drew a circle around the king and said that if he stepped outside the circle without agreeing to all Rome's terms (becoming a vassal state) his kingdom would be essentially obliterated.
  • ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    The graph shows the rise trending downwards before hitting zero in 2015. I take it you can't extrapolate.
    It's trended down before and gone up again. No evidence here that it is dropping.. not yet!
    how can you trend down and not be dropping
    Life expectancy is still going up, albeit a lot slower.
    In the fall of 1972 President Nixon announced that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing. This was the first time a sitting president used the third derivative to advance his case for reelection.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,533
    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    Dunno. It make come under regulations that a minister can implement without legislation, as it is a date change rather than something substantial in law.

    I escape this particular change by a handful of years, as will apply to those born 1970 onwards.

    I suspect they will be back again though with new dates later in Parliament.

    Looks like sticking it to the under 40s again, so soon after the Tories got shellacked by this cohort. Bonkers politics, even if required for the government finances long term.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Quidder, would that we had people capable of that now.

    I think I heard a newsreader the other day say that prices were falling because inflation had declined to 2.6%.

    ......

    Honestly. It was like listening to Mr. Eagles try and talk about classical history.
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    GeoffM said:

    GeoffM said:

    Mr. Pointer, do you think there's no upper limit to human life expectancy? That's the logical conclusion of thinking life expectancy will continually increase as a matter of course.

    It's possible technology may alter the natural state of affairs, but we aren't there yet.

    Indeed, the obesity time bomb has often been used to suggest the generation born in the 1990s may live shorter lives than those of earlier decades. I remember reading at school the optimistic assessment people of my age might reach 130, but those born later might have shorter lives.

    Then there's the increase in antibiotic resistant disease to consider as well.

    I plan to live forever.

    So far, so good.
    My experience is that few seem to enjoy life much after 95 years at the top end and the mid 70's for many.

    The obesity epidemic also means that shrinking longevity is very possible.

    That was the point of the Tithonus story from Mr Dancer. Eos' mistake is the plea to the Zeus of eternal life but not eternal youth - so he decays but does not ever die.

    My grandfather recently passed away at 97. I would not seek to emulate his final years.
    The age at death of my grandparents varied from 86 years to 98, so actuarially I need to plan for a long retirement. Fortunately with NHS superannuation, I can, though may go part time in a couple of years.

    My 98 year old granny was pretty fit and mentally strong, but her last years were little pleasure, after she outlived her husband by a couple of years and all of her contemporaries.
    My wife's surgeon retired recently. He said he could not afford to go part time because of the costs of insurance in the event of being sued for a mistake, because it did not go down pro rata with the time worked. He was the Chief surgeon at a large hospital.

    He was applying to join Medicine sans Frontiere instead.
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,533
    GeoffM said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    I can't say I have a huge problem with £200k for Neil or Kuenssberg, especially as they are doing way more than just reading the autocue. They are proper journalists and I doubt LK ever switches off her mobile.

    Some of the R2 DJs on the other hand, my god e.g. Jeremy Vine.

    We also already know there is a load of presenter on just below the £150k level. Again some no-name only reading the autocue on BBC News in the middle of the night, that seems a very well paid gig, when lots of journalists won't get near that.
    The free market at work eh?
    Not with the BBC, obviously, no.
    None of this can be useful analysed (as far as journalism goes) unless we had the same types of figures from Sky and ITV. Can an autocue reading journo working at 2am get more or less money at Sky?
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,533

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    I can't say I have a huge problem with £200k for Neil or Kuenssberg, especially as they are doing way more than just reading the autocue. They are proper journalists and I doubt LK ever switches off her mobile.

    Some of the R2 DJs on the other hand, my god e.g. Jeremy Vine.

    We also already know there is a load of presenter on just below the £150k level. Again some no-name only reading the autocue on BBC News in the middle of the night, that seems a very well paid gig, when lots of journalists won't get near that.
    The Corbyn cultists hate Kuenssberg.

    I would double her salary tomorrow and tell her to keep at it :-)
  • felixfelix Posts: 15,180
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    Indeed - more likely the result of prosperity - everybody eating too much cake and drinking too much wine.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    justin124 said:

    FPT
    Brom said
    'If the match is good people will watch. Des Lynam or Lineker it does not matter. They are just smooth linkmen and not irreplaceable. Lineker no doubt likes his BBC profile to keep him in the papers and to earn more from Walkers. Does he justify £1.8m? Of course not'

    I agree with that. Lineker is a nice guy - but in no sense is he a top class polished broadcaster! He started off being embarassingly poor in the 1990s when he took over from Des Lynam , and whilst he has improved with time he has never come close to matching Lynam in terms of underlying talent for such a role. He has always lacked a certain natural authority and has not been well blessed in terms of charisma or strength of personality. People like Alan Hansen invariably outshone him and were more obviously the stars of the programme - as were Jimmy Hill and Bob Wilson in earlier years. David Coleman, Frank Bough et al were journalists who became good professional broadcasters, whilst Lineker was a good footballer perceived to be squeaky clean and a nice guy but never a natural broadcaster. Why would the BBC have wished to invest considerable resources in training him up to be just 'OK' when there must have been other more naturally talented journalists available who would have done the job better at a fraction of the cost?To me it is beyond belief that people tune into MOTD just because he appears on it. Viewing figures are well down anyway compared with when he took over. Who seriously would wish to switch to Sky just to watch Lineker?What he is paid is obscene -and not based on merit at all - and I sympathise with those inclined to withold their License Payments in protest at such abuse of revenues.

    Since gender pay gap is an issue, it is difficult to raise the point why Moira Stewart is paid more than £150k to read the news. If reading the news is so difficult, then why aren't everyone else ?
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    I intend downloading myself into computer form some time around 2050.

    How else am I going to continue the discussions about the Brexit catastrophe?
  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    RobD said:

    malcolmg said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    The graph shows the rise trending downwards before hitting zero in 2015. I take it you can't extrapolate.
    It's trended down before and gone up again. No evidence here that it is dropping.. not yet!
    how can you trend down and not be dropping
    Life expectancy is still going up, albeit a lot slower.
    In the fall of 1972 President Nixon announced that the rate of increase of inflation was decreasing. This was the first time a sitting president used the third derivative to advance his case for reelection.
    Media talk about inflation falling when it changes from 3% to 2% when of course prices are still continuing to rise by 2%.

    Yesterday a commentator said the current inflation caused by the fall in the exchange rate would wash itself out before too long - but whilst the annual rate of inflation will decline, prices will not decline unless inflation goes negative eg if the exchange rate returns to 1.50 to the dollar.

    Much better to look at the price index itself over time rather than its rate of change (inflation).
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    Jeremy Vine gets £700k
  • rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 63,533

    I intend downloading myself into computer form some time around 2050.

    How else am I going to continue the discussions about the Brexit catastrophe?

    :lol:

    In 300 years you can reuse the old joke:

    "Do you think the The French Revolution worked?"

    Chinese PM: "Too early to say"



  • David_EvershedDavid_Evershed Posts: 6,506

    I intend downloading myself into computer form some time around 2050.

    How else am I going to continue the discussions about the Brexit catastrophe?

    That would be AMEXIT.
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    I can't say I have a huge problem with £200k for Neil or Kuenssberg, especially as they are doing way more than just reading the autocue. They are proper journalists and I doubt LK ever switches off her mobile.

    Some of the R2 DJs on the other hand, my god e.g. Jeremy Vine.

    We also already know there is a load of presenter on just below the £150k level. Again some no-name only reading the autocue on BBC News in the middle of the night, that seems a very well paid gig, when lots of journalists won't get near that.
    £400k for the inane drivel spouted by Alan Shearer is for me the most astonishing revelation.
    He, like Lineker, is living on the fact he WAS a great footballer. Whereas Gary Neville, lets say not the most talented player to ever play for England, but really knows the modern game, tactics, techniques, etc.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,854

    I intend downloading myself into computer form some time around 2050.

    How else am I going to continue the discussions about the Brexit catastrophe?

    :lol:

    In 300 years you can reuse the old joke:

    "Do you think the The French Revolution worked?"

    Chinese PM: "Too early to say"
    You think they might start purging Remoaners to make sure Brexit happens?

    That would be AMEXIT.

    Once in computer form, Alastair should launch a crypto-currency called the Ameeks.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    edited July 2017

    I intend downloading myself into computer form some time around 2050.

    How else am I going to continue the discussions about the Brexit catastrophe?

    I've just uploaded you. Though I might have used 1980s tech rather than 2050's ...:

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    DDDDDDDDDDDDD8D=~::~$7=88~~~:DDDDDDDDDDD
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    DDDDDDDDDDDDDDDDO~~$+?=+D8D=~DDDDDDDDDDD
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    surbiton said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    Jeremy Vine gets £700k
    John Humphreys on R4 seems overpaid unless he also does TV work. I've seen little evidence of it. How can he be worth 2.5x as much as Andrew Neil?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919

    surbiton said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    Jeremy Vine gets £700k
    John Humphreys on R4 seems overpaid unless he also does TV work. I've seen little evidence of it. How can he be worth 2.5x as much as Andrew Neil?
    He also does Mastermind,
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    felix said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    A quick glance at the Conservative manifesto doesn't find any mention of raising the retirement age. Can anyone give me a page number?
    They say state pension will go up in line with life expectancy on page 66 online, 64 in document.

    "We will also ensure that the state pension age reflects increases in life expectancy, while protecting each generation fairly".

    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    Indeed - more likely the result of prosperity - everybody eating too much cake and drinking too much wine.
    Life expectancy is now dropping across the pond, and in these trends we usually follow:

    https://www.theatlantic.com/health/archive/2016/12/why-are-so-many-americans-dying-young/510455/
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:



    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    And I would love to be able to provide it, but that's going to be very tricky. The evidence is circumstantial but it's at least conceivable that austerity has had an effect.

    In the article Sir Michael Marmot, director of the Institute of Health Equity at UCL, said:
    it was "entirely possible" austerity had played a role. He explained social factors such as education, employment and working conditions er people would have deteriorated and could well affect their life expectancy.
    It's "entirely possible" that many things can play a role.

    In any case, the report does not say life expectancy has fallen, rather the rate of increase has slowed.
    Agreed - slowed to virtually nothing... after a couple of centuries of steady increase.

    If a link to austerity does exist could there be a greater example of a government failing in its duty to protect and improve the lives of its citizens?

    Not if austerity is necessary, which I believe it is. In 2010, the government was spending £4 for every £3 it raised. Failing to deal with that would entail very savage cuts in public spending down the line.
    The gap could have been closed with tax increases. There are three components to the equation: deficit, spending and taxes. Why do some people reduce it to just deficit versus spending?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Dr. Foxinsox, obesity time bomb starting to go off?

    [I lost weight recently. Surprised, given I haven't exercised much of late].
  • Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    It's "entirely possible" that many things can play a role.

    In any case, the report does not say life expectancy has fallen, rather the rate of increase has slowed.

    Agreed - slowed to virtually nothing... after a couple of centuries of steady increase.

    If a link to austerity does exist could there be a greater example of a government failing in its duty to protect and improve the lives of its citizens?

    Not if austerity is necessary, which I believe it is. In 2010, the government was spending £4 for every £3 it raised. Failing to deal with that would entail very savage cuts in public spending down the line.
    Indeed. Our so-called "austerity" has been increasing spending at a lower rate than before.

    Other nations in Europe that ran out of money have had real austerity where spending has been reduced year after year. That is the ultimately alternative to our so-called austerity.

    In Greece where healthcare spending etc have been slashed as there was no money left, life expectancy has fallen. Actually fallen, not just increased at a slower rate.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Can't believe this escaped me before (bit distracted) but the prime example of wealth and health not tallying was one of the Eastern countries, maybe Hungary, after a failed uprising against the Soviets. In the years following, the economy increased but life expectancy declined, contrary to all expectations.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924

    Mr. Jessop, when Roman 'negotiators' met a certain Macedonian king (I forget who, maybe a Perseus) on a beach, the Roman got a stick, drew a circle around the king and said that if he stepped outside the circle without agreeing to all Rome's terms (becoming a vassal state) his kingdom would be essentially obliterated.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antiochus_IV_Epiphanes#Wars_against_Egypt
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    edited July 2017
    "Somewheres" as opposed to "Anywheres" undoubtedly contain a significant number of football supporters and fans in their ranks. Indeed it was reported to me by a local Leave campaigner that the largest numbers of leavers he found in a single place when canvassing last year was at a football ground where they merrily informed him "We're all Leave here mate." Admittedly we are not talking Chelsea/Arsenal or Man City/Utd here but Vanarama National League stuff. Gary Lineker though for reasons best known to him has enjoyed his recent status as an arch-remoaner in chief in between emitting plenty of other guff that tends to annoy such people. Not surprisingly then sympathy for his little embarrassment today is limited. If you earn so much money at the expense of the little people who pay the TV licence perhaps staying mum on matters that divide the country 50:50 is a smarter option particularly when not that many people would really be that bothered, at least after a couple of weeks reflection perhaps, if he went permanently awol on Saturday nights.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726

    Sean_F said:

    Sean_F said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Pro_Rata said:

    RobD said:

    felix said:

    felix said:

    rkrkrk said:



    I think that's the basis of it...
    Trouble is life expectancy is dropping.
    Wrong.
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-40608256
    I take it you can't read a graph.
    If only they had a graph showing the rate of change of the change in life expectancy per year... :D
    Given these stats can only be collated in arrears, and given the trend line, 'life expectancy is falling' could well be true at the present moment. Stick a 'probably' in there and you're covered.
    That graph shows it has gone up as many times as it has gone down in recent years. So probably not 'probably'.
    Another wonderful result for 7 years of austerity!
    Hm, would like to see evidence of that link.
    And I would love to be able to provide it, but that's going to be very tricky. The evidence is circumstantial but it's at least conceivable that austerity has had an effect.

    In the article Sir Michael Marmot, director of the Institute of Health Equity at UCL, said:
    it was "entirely possible" austerity had played a role. well affect their life expectancy.
    It's "entirely possible" that many things can play a role.

    In any case, the report does not say life expectancy has fallen, rather the rate of increase has slowed.
    Agreed - slowed to virtually nothing... after a couple of centuries of steady increase.

    If a link to austerity does exist its duty to protect and improve the lives of its citizens?

    Not if austerity is necessary, which I believe it is. In 2010, the government was spending £4 for every £3 it raised. Failing to deal with that would entail very savage cuts in public spending down the line.
    The gap could have been closed with tax increases. There are three components to the equation: deficit, spending and taxes. Why do some people reduce it to just deficit versus spending?
    Tax increases have been a part of it, as have public spending reductions, and deficit spending. The public would certainly not tolerate using tax increases as the only means of closing the gap.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Richard, ah, cheers. I was wrong, alas. Seleucid, not Macedonian (I was thinking of geography not ethnicity).
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dr. Foxinsox, obesity time bomb starting to go off?

    [I lost weight recently. Surprised, given I haven't exercised much of late].

    That is part of it, but also the opiate epidemic. More Americans now die of overdoses than either motor vehicle accidents or shootings. Each society has its own problems, but other issues are international. Obesity is a worldwide epidemic, though the variation across social classes and similar countries shows that it is not inevitable. SE class effect on mortality varies substantially due to smoking and obesity, rather than other markers of poverty.
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    edited July 2017
    USA Polling News

    Public Policy Polling have just released some fieldwork. There's some interesting stuff in there. Lots of questions on Russia, healthcare, potential Presidential election match-ups, opinions on the various news outlets. All the stuff you'd expect.

    All very interesting but I loved one question in particular: Would you approve/disapprove of Trump if he shot someone.

    Brilliantly a plurality (45%) of Trump voters would approve of his job performance if he actually did gun someone down. Plus, oddly, 4% of Hillary supporters would approve too. You've got to wonder if they think they are in on a joke.

    Anyway, useful stuff if you're betting (as I am) on Trump's survival.

    http://www.publicpolicypolling.com/main/2017/07/health-care-a-mine-field-for-republicans-many-trump-voters-in-denial-on-russia.html
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Dr. Foxinsox, ah, that's interesting. I was unaware of the opiate angle.
  • DadgeDadge Posts: 2,052
    Read some of the comments from today's General Election conference at https://twitter.com/hashtag/CMP2017?s=09
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Lol, Clive Myrie presenting the Six O'Clock News tonight.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    BBC News at 6 presented by sub 150k Clive Myrie.
    Piece here by 250k Kuennsberg.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    tlg86 said:

    Lol, Clive Myrie presenting the Six O'Clock News tonight.

    His agent should be on the blower :)
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    ARF. Amusing Myrie reeling out his overpaid colleagues.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    Radio 2 seems to pay bloody well !
  • GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    GeoffM said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    I can't say I have a huge problem with £200k for Neil or Kuenssberg, especially as they are doing way more than just reading the autocue. They are proper journalists and I doubt LK ever switches off her mobile.

    Some of the R2 DJs on the other hand, my god e.g. Jeremy Vine.

    We also already know there is a load of presenter on just below the £150k level. Again some no-name only reading the autocue on BBC News in the middle of the night, that seems a very well paid gig, when lots of journalists won't get near that.
    The free market at work eh?
    Not with the BBC, obviously, no.
    None of this can be useful analysed (as far as journalism goes) unless we had the same types of figures from Sky and ITV. Can an autocue reading journo working at 2am get more or less money at Sky?
    When I have to, under penalty of imprisonment, pay a Sky News Tax then I will auto-adjust the number of shits given and get back to you.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Dr. Foxinsox, ah, that's interesting. I was unaware of the opiate angle.

    There is a pretty good correlation between Trump voting and opiate addiction:

    https://www.inverse.com/article/23509-trump-election-rural-america-opioid-epidemic-heroin

    I suspect that there is a similar correlation in the UK between Leave voting and premature mortality, but do not have such maps to hand. The sorts of alienation and dissatisfaction that cause unhealthy living are similar to the demographics of Leave. As always there is a lot of overlap.
  • MonksfieldMonksfield Posts: 2,838
    Pensions - personally I wouldn't be affected this time but my wife is.

    My only real problem is the way that whilst ever thinner gruel is being passed on to millenials and gen Xers - the former in particular are being hammered from all sides - boomers are still being cosseted and shielded from any of the pain. Truly they are the Whitney Houston generation.





  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,718
    I ma going to see it Friday on IMAX with grandson , seems to be getting rave reviews.
  • malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 43,718
    surbiton said:

    Pulpstar said:

    On the BBC.
    Andrew Neil seems v good value at 250k to me. God knows why alot of them are paid what they are though

    Jeremy Vine gets £700k
    that is unbelievable
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,381
    Pulpstar said:

    ARF. Amusing Myrie reeling out his overpaid colleagues.

    So that's what Hammond meant by "public sector workers"!!! :lol:
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    If not approved then there certainly will not be any money left to pay state pensions in 20 years time.

    State pensions are unfunded and depend on future governments getting approval to tax enough to pay future state pensions.
    I suspect that most people would rather see higher taxes than be forced to work any longer.
    In practice,of course, most people could effectively thwart this by simply going sick when they reach circa 65. Three months paid sick leave would offset the loss of a year's State Pension for most people.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    malcolmg said:

    I ma going to see it Friday on IMAX with grandson , seems to be getting rave reviews.
    The story of the Scottish 51st and 52nd Divisions is an interesting one, the latter being landed in France after the fall of Dunkirk, but being evacuated quickly from Cherbourg, as part of the follow up evacuations from Normandy and the Atlantic coast.

    Nearly all the 100 000 French evacuated at Dunkirk were landed back in France too, only delaying their surrender by a few weeks.
  • NemtynakhtNemtynakht Posts: 2,329
    Interesting podcast - the thing that would interest me would be to tie the scores in with statements about what the politicians believe. I think Boris before and Corbyn have been able to be vague on policy and let people project onto them. I think this is why leaders have Honeymoon periods, and why Theresa May tanked when she actually had to say what she believed.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,381

    malcolmg said:

    I ma going to see it Friday on IMAX with grandson , seems to be getting rave reviews.
    The story of the Scottish 51st and 52nd Divisions is an interesting one, the latter being landed in France after the fall of Dunkirk, but being evacuated quickly from Cherbourg, as part of the follow up evacuations from Normandy and the Atlantic coast.

    Nearly all the 100 000 French evacuated at Dunkirk were landed back in France too, only delaying their surrender by a few weeks.
    PB's Alanbrooke was there :)
  • NormNorm Posts: 1,251

    Pensions - personally I wouldn't be affected this time but my wife is.

    My only real problem is the way that whilst ever thinner gruel is being passed on to millenials and gen Xers - the former in particular are being hammered from all sides - boomers are still being cosseted and shielded from any of the pain. Truly they are the Whitney Houston generation.






    Not entirely true. The term boomers cover those born between 1945 and 1964 yet younger "boomers" born after 1961 will not draw a state pension until 67, only a year earlier, while older female boomers born before 1951 were lucky enough to retire at 60 so even within the "boomer" generation there is some variation. The age you receive winter fuel allowance has also increased to the disadvantage of younger boomers.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    If not approved then there certainly will not be any money left to pay state pensions in 20 years time.

    State pensions are unfunded and depend on future governments getting approval to tax enough to pay future state pensions.
    I suspect that most people would rather see higher taxes than be forced to work any longer.
    In practice,of course, most people could effectively thwart this by simply going sick when they reach circa 65. Three months paid sick leave would offset the loss of a year's State Pension for most people.
    Raising the state pension age doesn't force you to keep on working. Instead of seeing anything as an opportunity for the state to tax people more, why not use it to encourage a bit of personal responsibility for providing for yourself in old age.

    I don't expect to receive a state pension.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,106
    edited July 2017
    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    If not approved then there certainly will not be any money left to pay state pensions in 20 years time.

    State pensions are unfunded and depend on future governments getting approval to tax enough to pay future state pensions.
    I suspect that most people would rather see higher taxes than be forced to work any longer.
    In practice,of course, most people could effectively thwart this by simply going sick when they reach circa 65. Three months paid sick leave would offset the loss of a year's State Pension for most people.
    You do know this one measure saves 75 billion pounds. And if you want to game the system well the system needs changing in fairness to all tax payers
  • NigelbNigelb Posts: 72,971
    Mortimer said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    If not approved then there certainly will not be any money left to pay state pensions in 20 years time.

    State pensions are unfunded and depend on future governments getting approval to tax enough to pay future state pensions.
    I suspect that most people would rather see higher taxes than be forced to work any longer.
    In practice,of course, most people could effectively thwart this by simply going sick when they reach circa 65. Three months paid sick leave would offset the loss of a year's State Pension for most people.
    Raising the state pension age doesn't force you to keep on working. Instead of seeing anything as an opportunity for the state to tax people more, why not use it to encourage a bit of personal responsibility for providing for yourself in old age.

    I don't expect to receive a state pension.
    Yep, I'm not sure whether I'll die working, or retire on my ill gotten gains.

    Time will tell.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Mortimer said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    If not approved then there certainly will not be any money left to pay state pensions in 20 years time.

    State pensions are unfunded and depend on future governments getting approval to tax enough to pay future state pensions.
    I suspect that most people would rather see higher taxes than be forced to work any longer.
    In practice,of course, most people could effectively thwart this by simply going sick when they reach circa 65. Three months paid sick leave would offset the loss of a year's State Pension for most people.
    Raising the state pension age doesn't force you to keep on working. Instead of seeing anything as an opportunity for the state to tax people more, why not use it to encourage a bit of personal responsibility for providing for yourself in old age.

    I don't expect to receive a state pension.
    No Government is going to get rid of the State Pension. Recent events have highlighted how toxic it was even to abandon the Triple Lock on annual increases or to restrict the Winter Fuel Payment to those on low incomes.
    I can sympathise with those who feel embittered at being denied what was given to others just a year older. A person born in Autumn 1954 will not receive the State Pension until 66 whilst those born in Autumn 1953 will still get it at 65.I can well understand how the former might react by saying 'To hell with it - I will get it back by another route - I will go sick for 3 months.' Full pay for 3 months would more than offset the loss of a year's State Pension.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Mortimer said:

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    If not approved then there certainly will not be any money left to pay state pensions in 20 years time.

    State pensions are unfunded and depend on future governments getting approval to tax enough to pay future state pensions.
    I suspect that most people would rather see higher taxes than be forced to work any longer.
    In practice,of course, most people could effectively thwart this by simply going sick when they reach circa 65. Three months paid sick leave would offset the loss of a year's State Pension for most people.
    Raising the state pension age doesn't force you to keep on working. Instead of seeing anything as an opportunity for the state to tax people more, why not use it to encourage a bit of personal responsibility for providing for yourself in old age.

    I don't expect to receive a state pension.
    Yes, I'd recommend anyone young enough to get a lifetime ISA even if you have a decent pension anyway. If I don't buy a house I'll be able to take the money at 60 (assuming no funny business!).
  • nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    Nobody should be reying on the state pension there has now been plenty of warning that the age is going up. Maybe it should just be abolished but i suppose that would mean many more people claiming benefits in latter life to compensate.
  • justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527

    justin124 said:

    justin124 said:

    Scott_P said:

    @steve_hawkes: Rumours David Gauke may be about to signal that he wants to bring forward an increase in state retirement age. Would be a good day to do it

    Oh FFS. I was saying only the other day to a mate that the buggers would pull this stunt straight after the election, meaning I will have to wait another year.
    Does this require a parliamentary vote? If so , I suspect it may not be approved.
    If not approved then there certainly will not be any money left to pay state pensions in 20 years time.

    State pensions are unfunded and depend on future governments getting approval to tax enough to pay future state pensions.
    I suspect that most people would rather see higher taxes than be forced to work any longer.
    In practice,of course, most people could effectively thwart this by simply going sick when they reach circa 65. Three months paid sick leave would offset the loss of a year's State Pension for most people.
    You do know this one measure saves 75 billion pounds. And if you want to game the system well the system needs changing in fairness to all tax payers
    But if fairness is the issue the Government needs to be looking at some means of removing some of the first year's State Pension paid to those who have already retired. 'The Govt has decided that you were allowed to retire a year earlier than our public finances or the national interest can afford'. There is no prospect of that happening!
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Sci-fi fans: tomorrow at the San Diego Comic-Con there'll be an announcement about the future of Stargate.

    Indeed.
  • rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    nichomar said:

    Nobody should be reying on the state pension there has now been plenty of warning that the age is going up. Maybe it should just be abolished but i suppose that would mean many more people claiming benefits in latter life to compensate.

    People with hard-right views might like to go and live in Chile. It tried to privatise its pension system at the same time Thatcher at her height was trying to destroy ours and got rid of Barbara Castle's SERPS.

    Ah ... but on checking I find as usual that the private sector wouldn't guarantee anything. So it takes the profits in the good times and the govt pays any deficits in pensioners' incomes

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pensions_in_Chile

    Plus ca change.

    Stae provision is cheaper.

    AFAIK all developed countries except the UK pay a high enough state pension to live on provided you've paid a normal number of contributions. This includes Ireland and the US.

    What are there ... 13 million pensioners? Let's pay them an average of £6.5k/y each. That's £85 bn/yr or just over 5% of GDP.

    You seriously claim this should be ended/privatised? You must be mad.

    The UK spends £52 bn/yr on tax relief to private pensions. FFS.
  • JonnyJimmyJonnyJimmy Posts: 2,548
    I think President of the People's Republic of Grenfell would be an ideal job for Corbyn. The residents would probably be happy with it too.
This discussion has been closed.