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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Well red, Alastair Meeks on Labour’s new MPs

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Well red, Alastair Meeks on Labour’s new MPs

One in five of Labour’s current MPs did not serve in the last Parliament.  With more than 50 new MPs, the new crop is going to make a big difference to Labour’s political balance.  So what does it look like?

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    In the last 2 hours there have been more than twice as many lightning strikes in the UK as in the whole of North America.

    http://en.blitzortung.org/live_lightning_maps.php?map=12
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    Fascinating! Outstanding work, Mr Meeks - with slim parliamentary arithmetic we're in for interesting times....
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    DAVE IN MAY'S CORNER Former PM David Cameron encourages Theresa May to ‘keep on going’ during No10 pep talk and says he’s DESPERATE for Brexit to succeed

    https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/4047731/former-pm-david-cameron-encourages-theresa-may-to-keep-on-going-during-no10-pep-talk-and-says-hes-desperate-for-to-brexit-suceed/

    Wonder what the editor of Two Beard's free-sheet will make of that.....
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    Thanks, Mr Meeks. This is brilliant.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    Off-topic:

    Forgive me for going off-topic so soon, but I know we have some OnePlus fans and users on here. They may be interested in the following story:
    http://www.popularmechanics.com/technology/gadgets/news/a27339/oneplus-5-reboots-911/
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Interesting thread.

    So why do we think scientists and engineers aren't becoming MPs?
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting thread.

    So why do we think scientists and engineers aren't becoming MPs?

    We had a chemist as the most outstanding Prime Minister in living/voting memory.

    It's more interesting to ask why they are avoiding the Labour Party.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    GeoffM said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting thread.

    So why do we think scientists and engineers aren't becoming MPs?

    We had a chemist as the most outstanding Prime Minister in living/voting memory.

    It's more interesting to ask why they are avoiding the Labour Party.
    Margaret Beckett was a metallurgist and Labour deputy leader and Foreign Secretary. Maybe the question is why women scientists prosper -- though that is based on a sample of only three (Thatcher, Beckett, and Angela Merkel who was a chemist) so might be only slightly more reliable than a pre-election opinion poll.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    As ever, thanks Alastair, very interesting.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    GeoffM said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting thread.

    So why do we think scientists and engineers aren't becoming MPs?

    We had a chemist as the most outstanding Prime Minister in living/voting memory.

    It's more interesting to ask why they are avoiding the Labour Party.
    Thatcher first became an MP in 1959.

    At present I think there are 10 conservative MPs with a degree in science and 7 in the labour party.
    https://duncan.hull.name/2015/05/08/scientist-mps/amp/

    That feels low for both parties to be honest.
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    OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 32,003
    GeoffM said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting thread.

    So why do we think scientists and engineers aren't becoming MPs?

    We had a chemist as the most outstanding Prime Minister in living/voting memory.

    It's more interesting to ask why they are avoiding the Labour Party.
    She'd switched to law long before that, though!
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    felixfelix Posts: 15,124
    GeoffM said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting thread.

    So why do we think scientists and engineers aren't becoming MPs?

    We had a chemist as the most outstanding Prime Minister in living/voting memory.

    It's more interesting to ask why they are avoiding the Labour Party.
    Mostly too thick for the more academic pursuits as shown in the education questions recently.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    DecrepitJohnL said:

    GeoffM said:

    rkrkrk said:

    Interesting thread.

    So why do we think scientists and engineers aren't becoming MPs?

    We had a chemist as the most outstanding Prime Minister in living/voting memory.

    It's more interesting to ask why they are avoiding the Labour Party.
    Margaret Beckett was a metallurgist and Labour deputy leader and Foreign Secretary. Maybe the question is why women scientists prosper -- though that is based on a sample of only three (Thatcher, Beckett, and Angela Merkel who was a chemist) so might be only slightly more reliable than a pre-election opinion poll.
    Surley the answer to that was they had to be determined to study science and go to university in the first place given generational attitudes at the time. They carried that determination through into polotics.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    edited July 2017
    JohnLoony said:

    In the last 2 hours there have been more than twice as many lightning strikes in the UK as in the whole of North America.

    http://en.blitzortung.org/live_lightning_maps.php?map=12

    bloody unions....
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    I'm surprised the BBC head office isn't taking off, the amount of spinning that'll be going on today.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited July 2017
    Good morning, everyone.

    Interesting article, Mr. Meeks.

    Of course, people who enjoy 'well red' things may also enjoy my mid-season review: http://enormo-haddock.blogspot.co.uk/2017/07/mid-season-review-2017.html

    Edited extra bit: weird thing. Click to stop loading (comments already up) and then it starts again.

    Edited extra bit 2: annoying me, so I'll use the Vanilla forum directly, I think.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    The ConHome surveys are occasionally reported on here and always followed up with questions about the methods.

    This morning they've published an update on the recent attempt to game the system and their countermeasures. This should also provide PB with a reasonable baseline on which to judge the usefulness of the surveys ongoing.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/07/improving-the-conhome-monthly-survey.html
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Morning all. I have a corrigendum, courtesy of twitter:

    https://twitter.com/MXRXISM/status/887514126842548224
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    GeoffM said:

    The ConHome surveys are occasionally reported on here and always followed up with questions about the methods.

    This morning they've published an update on the recent attempt to game the system and their countermeasures. This should also provide PB with a reasonable baseline on which to judge the usefulness of the surveys ongoing.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/07/improving-the-conhome-monthly-survey.html

    In other words, it's rubbish, and we only know it's rubbish because someone incompetently tried to game it. We have no idea if, or how frequently, it was gamed it. We have no idea of these self-reporting 'party members' really are. The poll is non-scientific and will continue to be so.

    ;)
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    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    The author of the European Union’s Article 50 has issued a call for Brexit to be halted, warning that its “disastrous consequences” are becoming clearer every day.

    Lord Kerr of Kinlochard was among more than 60 prominent figures in Scotland who signed a letter warning that Brexit has seriously damaged the UK’s international reputation, and demanding a “UK-wide debate about calling a halt to the process”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/article-50-author-calls-for-halt-on-uks-withdrawal-bn0kxcsdz
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    A bit more info on Matt Western, the new Labour MP for Warwick & Leamington. He worked in procurement for Peugeot until 2008, when the company shut most of its UK operation (it used to have a big plant in Ryton just outside Coventry). Then he set up and ran his own branding and marketing consultancy.
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    AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Bad news for those backing Jacob Rees-Mogg at 6/1:

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/887557601835274240
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    Brief delurk having managed to find a 2G internet connection at my dodgy ex-Soviet resort in the middle of Ukraine. Very good article @AlastairMeeks, some good names there to watch out for in the future.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited July 2017
    Mr. P, does raise the question of what Article 50's author was thinking of. If he believed the process to be flawed why did he make it that way?

    Edited extra bit: on BBC salaries, worth noting there are various points of view:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4lzS8yW8INA
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    Corbyn looks very smug in the thread picture. Pride cometh before a fall as Mrs May well knows.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    SquareRoot said:

    Corbyn looks very smug in the thread picture. Pride cometh before a fall as Mrs May well knows.

    Corbyn is a hugely successful politician who has probably achieved more of his goals than most others. He has never been interested in being PM or in running a government, but he has tirelessly worked for the far left's control of the Labour parry and the UK's withdrawal from the EU. No wonder he is smiling.

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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    I wonder if someone could draw up a venn diagram of the BBC's overpaid 'talent', people who have been involved in dubious tax avoidance schemes and people who have made posturing leftist statements about public spending.

    Thanks for the article AM.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Observer, be fair. The credit for Corbyn being there is more down to the idiocy of the PLP than his own skills.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    JosiasJessop said:

    GeoffM said:

    The ConHome surveys are occasionally reported on here and always followed up with questions about the methods.

    This morning they've published an update on the recent attempt to game the system and their countermeasures. This should also provide PB with a reasonable baseline on which to judge the usefulness of the surveys ongoing.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/07/improving-the-conhome-monthly-survey.html

    In other words, it's rubbish, and we only know it's rubbish because someone incompetently tried to game it. We have no idea if, or how frequently, it was gamed it. We have no idea of these self-reporting 'party members' really are. The poll is non-scientific and will continue to be so.

    ;)
    My Babel Fish translated your comment as "Thanks for letting us know. We properly understand the basis of the survey now".

    You're welcome.
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    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,481
    I said this exact phrase last week.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/887567968623788032
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    GeoffM said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    GeoffM said:

    The ConHome surveys are occasionally reported on here and always followed up with questions about the methods.

    This morning they've published an update on the recent attempt to game the system and their countermeasures. This should also provide PB with a reasonable baseline on which to judge the usefulness of the surveys ongoing.

    http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/07/improving-the-conhome-monthly-survey.html

    In other words, it's rubbish, and we only know it's rubbish because someone incompetently tried to game it. We have no idea if, or how frequently, it was gamed it. We have no idea of these self-reporting 'party members' really are. The poll is non-scientific and will continue to be so.

    ;)
    My Babel Fish translated your comment as "Thanks for letting us know. We properly understand the basis of the survey now".

    You're welcome.
    You shouldn't need a Babelfish to work out what my comment meant. Your need to use it highlights that you're from a different planet, and are just visiting Earth.

    That would certainly explain your posts. ;)

    Seriously though, that article just confirms that ConHome surveys (like almost all online surveys) is just GIGO. It should be used for amusement purposes only.
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    DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    another_richard said:

    I wonder if someone could draw up a venn diagram of the BBC's overpaid 'talent', people who have been involved in dubious tax avoidance schemes and people who have made posturing leftist statements about public spending.

    Or a venn diagram showing papers attacking the BBC and their involvement with rival broadcasters?
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    SouthamObserver said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Corbyn looks very smug in the thread picture. Pride cometh before a fall as Mrs May well knows.

    Corbyn is a hugely successful politician who has probably achieved more of his goals than most others. He has never been interested in being PM or in running a government, but he has tirelessly worked for the far left's control of the Labour parry and the UK's withdrawal from the EU. No wonder he is smiling.

    I suppose if one has very limited ages one can be easily satisfied....
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Bad news for those backing Jacob Rees-Mogg at 6/1:

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/887557601835274240

    Only a true messiah would deny he was the messiah!

    Great summary of the new intake. There seem to be a lot of teachers. O verall they seem a decent and diverse bunch, notable for their local roots rather than being parachuted in, and party members through thick and thin.

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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    edited July 2017
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Bad news for those backing Jacob Rees-Mogg at 6/1:

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/887557601835274240

    I know I suggested a few weeks before the Moggmentum event that he could do it one day, but the idea he'll be the next leader or PM is beyond mad. 6/1? Bonkers.

    Thanks for the article Alastair!
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    MortimerMortimer Posts: 13,946
    Scott_P said:

    The author of the European Union’s Article 50 has issued a call for Brexit to be halted, warning that its “disastrous consequences” are becoming clearer every day.

    Lord Kerr of Kinlochard was among more than 60 prominent figures in Scotland who signed a letter warning that Brexit has seriously damaged the UK’s international reputation, and demanding a “UK-wide debate about calling a halt to the process”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/article-50-author-calls-for-halt-on-uks-withdrawal-bn0kxcsdz

    Good grief. Another one who needs a joint honours in self-awareness and democracy...
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    Morning all,
    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I said this exact phrase last week.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/887567968623788032

    If this assessment is true, then it is astonishing that May actively chose to go into politics.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    SouthamObserver said:

    SquareRoot said:

    Corbyn looks very smug in the thread picture. Pride cometh before a fall as Mrs May well knows.

    Corbyn is a hugely successful politician who has probably achieved more of his goals than most others. He has never been interested in being PM or in running a government, but he has tirelessly worked for the far left's control of the Labour parry and the UK's withdrawal from the EU. No wonder he is smiling.

    I am beginning to think that having achieved hegemony in the party, he is quite keen on being PM. He really has grown on me over the last 2 years, and has grown into the role himself.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    Mortimer said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Bad news for those backing Jacob Rees-Mogg at 6/1:

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/887557601835274240

    I know I suggested a few weeks before the Moggmentum event that he could do it one day, but the idea he'll be the next leader or PM is beyond mad. 6/1? Bonkers.

    Thanks for the article Alastair!
    morning all,

    as everthing has gone bonkers of late - why not this as well?
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    simoninthehillssimoninthehills Posts: 15
    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Mortimer said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Bad news for those backing Jacob Rees-Mogg at 6/1:

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/887557601835274240

    I know I suggested a few weeks before the Moggmentum event that he could do it one day, but the idea he'll be the next leader or PM is beyond mad. 6/1? Bonkers.

    Thanks for the article Alastair!
    There is money to be had laying him on BFEx at 11
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,101
    Mortimer said:

    Scott_P said:

    The author of the European Union’s Article 50 has issued a call for Brexit to be halted, warning that its “disastrous consequences” are becoming clearer every day.

    Lord Kerr of Kinlochard was among more than 60 prominent figures in Scotland who signed a letter warning that Brexit has seriously damaged the UK’s international reputation, and demanding a “UK-wide debate about calling a halt to the process”.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/scotland/article-50-author-calls-for-halt-on-uks-withdrawal-bn0kxcsdz

    Good grief. Another one who needs a joint honours in self-awareness and democracy...
    Democracy is only a means to an end for some people.

    If it produces results they disagree with they think it should be dispensed with.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    It's a shame Huppert didn't get back in for Cambridge, as a rare exception to your rule.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    Telegraph reporting on more issues of voter fraud with students this morning. There is a private members bill on the way apparently on the issue.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    rottenborough said:

    Morning all,

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I said this exact phrase last week.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/887567968623788032

    If this assessment is true, then it is astonishing that May actively chose to go into politics.
    A politician needs either to have strong convictions or good interpersonal skills. May has neither. I have no idea why she would wish to be PM.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    rottenborough said:

    Morning all,

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I said this exact phrase last week.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/887567968623788032

    If this assessment is true, then it is astonishing that May actively chose to go into politics.
    Was the same for Gordon Brown. Some people can be good team members but not someone who should ever be put in the top job.
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,723
    AlastairMeeks said:

    Bad news for those backing Jacob Rees-Mogg at 6/1:

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/887557601835274240

    He doesn't actually rule it out. I think JRM's role is to construct a political philosophy for Brexit, which in reality is an exercise in mediocrity.

    Theresa May is the Brexiteer's puppet leader. They don't respect her but think they can control her.

    Good article, as was your earlier one on the new business Conservative intake.
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    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    A lot of great scientists find it difficult to communicate with people outside their field.

    And as a generalisation, I'd say they tend to have a world outlook that makes very little allowance for human nature.

    Those are big drawbacks for politicians.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Sean_F said:

    rottenborough said:

    Morning all,

    TheScreamingEagles said:

    I said this exact phrase last week.

    https://twitter.com/PickardJE/status/887567968623788032

    If this assessment is true, then it is astonishing that May actively chose to go into politics.
    A politician needs either to have strong convictions or good interpersonal skills. May has neither. I have no idea why she would wish to be PM.
    The trouble is that our political system has (particularly since Mrs T and latterly Blair) concentrated a lot of power in the PM - the days of more collegiate Cabinet government are long gone. So as Home Secretary May's future was always at the whim of the PM, with hardly any job security, and pretty much every move she made would have needed to be cleared with No. 10, and probably with the Treasury as well. Whatever her personal drive and self assessment of her own strengths and weaknesses, the desire to be free of such power and wield it instead yourself is understandably very high.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    FF43 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Bad news for those backing Jacob Rees-Mogg at 6/1:

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/887557601835274240

    He doesn't actually rule it out. I think JRM's role is to construct a political philosophy for Brexit, which in reality is an exercise in mediocrity.

    Theresa May is the Brexiteer's puppet leader. They don't respect her but think they can control her.

    Good article, as was your earlier one on the new business Conservative intake.
    Indeed, he doesn't rule it out.

    HE also thinks May will last longer than many people think. I agree with him.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    rottenborough said:

    Telegraph reporting on more issues of voter fraud with students this morning. There is a private members bill on the way apparently on the issue.

    A bill is overkill, the rules and penalties against double voting are already there. All it needs is an investigation and a few convictions, and hardly anyone will dare next time, once the idea that no-one ever checks is dispelled. With registration tied to NI numbers, checking is much easier than heretofore.
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    What an extraordinary thread header, the research must have taken hours. I must admit its a bit anoraky for me, I don't care if somebody is Jewish or gay, but well done anyway.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    Is there really an absence of scientists? 17 in the two main parties makes for about 3% of the house, which doesn't sound too far from the general population.
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    TykejohnnoTykejohnno Posts: 7,362
    JohnLoony said:

    In the last 2 hours there have been more than twice as many lightning strikes in the UK as in the whole of North America.

    http://en.blitzortung.org/live_lightning_maps.php?map=12

    I blame brexit ;-)
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    Sean_F said:

    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    A lot of great scientists find it difficult to communicate with people outside their field.

    And as a generalisation, I'd say they tend to have a world outlook that makes very little allowance for human nature.

    Those are big drawbacks for politicians.
    But engineers are in many ways the opposite: they have to work with the real world, as the real word doesn't bend to their will.

    I think there might be something deeper: good scientists and engineers believe in process, in testing and planning. These are anathema to many politicians, and often the political process itself.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    SouthamObserver said:

    A bit more info on Matt Western, the new Labour MP for Warwick & Leamington. He worked in procurement for Peugeot until 2008, when the company shut most of its UK operation (it used to have a big plant in Ryton just outside Coventry). Then he set up and ran his own branding and marketing consultancy.

    Ryton where all the Sunbeams and Hillmans were made, at the prime of the British car industry.
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. B2, agreed. The law appears sufficient but just isn't being applied.
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    AndyJSAndyJS Posts: 29,395
    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rottenborough said:

    FF43 said:

    AlastairMeeks said:

    Bad news for those backing Jacob Rees-Mogg at 6/1:

    https://twitter.com/ConHome/status/887557601835274240

    He doesn't actually rule it out. I think JRM's role is to construct a political philosophy for Brexit, which in reality is an exercise in mediocrity.

    Theresa May is the Brexiteer's puppet leader. They don't respect her but think they can control her.

    Good article, as was your earlier one on the new business Conservative intake.
    Indeed, he doesn't rule it out.

    HE also thinks May will last longer than many people think. I agree with him.
    The current cabinet warfare is out of hand, it clearly needs strong and stable leadership, but that is sadly lacking. One or other faction needs to go to the backbenches. When that happens there is very likely to be a leadership challenge. May is the guest who just cannot take the hint to go at the end of a party.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    IanB2 said:

    rottenborough said:

    Telegraph reporting on more issues of voter fraud with students this morning. There is a private members bill on the way apparently on the issue.

    A bill is overkill, the rules and penalties against double voting are already there. All it needs is an investigation and a few convictions, and hardly anyone will dare next time, once the idea that no-one ever checks is dispelled. With registration tied to NI numbers, checking is much easier than heretofore.
    The whole thing feels like a US style attempt to limit the vote, in the same way the republicans do

    A few instances here or there doesnt justify a disproportinate response
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    JosiasJessop said:

    Sean_F said:

    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    A lot of great scientists find it difficult to communicate with people outside their field.

    And as a generalisation, I'd say they tend to have a world outlook that makes very little allowance for human nature.

    Those are big drawbacks for politicians.
    But engineers are in many ways the opposite: they have to work with the real world, as the real word doesn't bend to their will.

    I think there might be something deeper: good scientists and engineers believe in process, in testing and planning. These are anathema to many politicians, and often the political process itself.
    I wouldn't read too much into this, the people most in touch with public opinion are hairdressers and bar staff, very few go on to be MPs.
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    BBC Salary day live updates:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/media/live/2017/jul/19/bbc-publishes-salaries-of-highest-earning-stars-live-updates
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    freetochoose said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Sean_F said:

    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    A lot of great scientists find it difficult to communicate with people outside their field.

    And as a generalisation, I'd say they tend to have a world outlook that makes very little allowance for human nature.

    Those are big drawbacks for politicians.
    But engineers are in many ways the opposite: they have to work with the real world, as the real word doesn't bend to their will.

    I think there might be something deeper: good scientists and engineers believe in process, in testing and planning. These are anathema to many politicians, and often the political process itself.
    I wouldn't read too much into this, the people most in touch with public opinion are hairdressers and bar staff, very few go on to be MPs.
    One of the Ministers out here is an ex taxi driver - he claims that's a real advantage.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2017
    IanB2 said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    A bit more info on Matt Western, the new Labour MP for Warwick & Leamington. He worked in procurement for Peugeot until 2008, when the company shut most of its UK operation (it used to have a big plant in Ryton just outside Coventry). Then he set up and ran his own branding and marketing consultancy.

    Ryton where all the Sunbeams and Hillmans were made, at the prime of the British car industry.
    The Hillman Imp was made in Scotland. I taught Mrs Fox to drive in one. It had several unusual features. The hot water pipes in the sills being one of these, and a tendency to burnout alternators.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    edited July 2017
    F1: I'm going to think about it before deciding, but Raikkonen's each way for the win at 17 on Ladbrokes and 26 for the win on Betfair. Hungary's probably better for Ferrari than Silverstone. He is a bit hamstrung by the number one status Vettel has, but also in one of the top two cars. Might check his recent performances there.

    Edited extra bit: performances in last three years not very helpful. He had one DNF, and the other two times he started around 14/16 and rose to 5/6th or so.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    edited July 2017
    Politicians want to change the world. To do that effectively, it helps to see things in black and white. Science is never settled, it's the best guess at the time but that is always open to dispute.

    Effective politicians are more like barristers and that could be why we have so many of the latter in politics. They will defend a guilty man to the best of their abilities. because it's the right thing to do.

    Often politicians will support a world view they want to be right despite evidence to the contrary. And they have a strange belief that passing a law will make voters agree with it. I await a law against gravity because it's dangerous and anti-social and it's the right thing to do.

    Becoming a politician is usually an admission that you have an over-inflated opinion of your own judgement and a lack of regard for other's thought processes. That perhaps explains why Parliament still elects more Remainers than Leavers. And thank you Mr Meeks for that quick survey.
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Defence? How? By "collected" they mean "stole" and all that does is add to the offences committed.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    CarlottaVance said:

    BBC Salary day live updates:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/media/live/2017/jul/19/bbc-publishes-salaries-of-highest-earning-stars-live-updates

    Honestly, I can't get in a lather about this. Aren't there many many bigger problems facing the country?
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    CD13 said:

    Politicians want to change the world. To do that effectively, it helps to see things in black and white. Science is never settled

    Don't tell the AGW zealots that.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,313
    1. interesting to hear Sarah Montague interviewing BBC's DG asking about the gender pay gap. You could hear between the lines the thought: "yippee - pay rise for me!"

    2. interesting article, thanks Alistair - shows that no matter how anti- or pro-Jezza MPs were, they spot an opportunity for power and are happy to set aside those worries in order to achieve it. If you assume that they objected to him because they didn't want to see the country dragged back to the 70s with unions gaining 35% payrises, and holding the country to ransom, plus British Leyland's return, etc, then it is perfectly acceptable to say:

    Labour - Party before Country.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    foxinsoxuk said:

    IanB2 said:

    SouthamObserver said:

    A bit more info on Matt Western, the new Labour MP for Warwick & Leamington. He worked in procurement for Peugeot until 2008, when the company shut most of its UK operation (it used to have a big plant in Ryton just outside Coventry). Then he set up and ran his own branding and marketing consultancy.

    Ryton where all the Sunbeams and Hillmans were made, at the prime of the British car industry.
    The Hillman Imp was made in Scotland. I taught Mrs Fox to drive in one. It had several unusual features. The hot water pipes in the sills being one of these, and a tendency to burnout alternators.
    My very first car was a fastback Sunbeam Rapier made at Ryton. Its sills were very rust prone, which was a problem in that, without a chassis, they were holding the car together.

    Its best feature by far was an overdrive that you could engage by flicking a little leaver sticking out of the steering wheel. Very useful to disengage when needing a boost of speed overtaking.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    JosiasJessop said:

    Sean_F said:

    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    A lot of great scientists find it difficult to communicate with people outside their field.

    And as a generalisation, I'd say they tend to have a world outlook that makes very little allowance for human nature.

    Those are big drawbacks for politicians.
    But engineers are in many ways the opposite: they have to work with the real world, as the real word doesn't bend to their will.

    I think there might be something deeper: good scientists and engineers believe in process, in testing and planning. These are anathema to many politicians, and often the political process itself.
    The great thing about science and engineering is that there's a right answer and a wrong answer.

    In politics, the right answer or wrong answer is much less clear.
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    freetochoose said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Sean_F said:

    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    A lot of great scientists find it difficult to communicate with people outside their field.

    And as a generalisation, I'd say they tend to have a world outlook that makes very little allowance for human nature.

    Those are big drawbacks for politicians.
    But engineers are in many ways the opposite: they have to work with the real world, as the real word doesn't bend to their will.

    I think there might be something deeper: good scientists and engineers believe in process, in testing and planning. These are anathema to many politicians, and often the political process itself.
    I wouldn't read too much into this, the people most in touch with public opinion are hairdressers and bar staff, very few go on to be MPs.
    Personally, I think it is more than most scientists and engineers I have met over my life (I was a computer scientist, programmer, manager etc etc) tend not to like any aspect of self-promotion, especially if it involves over-promoting and over-selling yourself. Obviously there are exceptions.

    Politics tends to the opposite.
  • Options
    CD13CD13 Posts: 6,351
    Mr Quidder,

    I'm happy to accept AGW as proven once they can predict and it can be tested. Otherwise, I'll only go along with it being a best guess. And wait and see.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    rottenborough said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.
    I cannot see a hung parliament co operating with pro-Tory voter suppression. If anyone has evidence ratber than anecdotes of students bragging on twitter then they should take it to the police under existing laws.
  • Options
    ThreeQuidderThreeQuidder Posts: 6,133
    foxinsoxuk said:

    rottenborough said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.
    I cannot see a hung parliament co operating with pro-Tory voter suppression. If anyone has evidence ratber than anecdotes of students bragging on twitter then they should take it to the police under existing laws.
    It's interesting how, to a Lib Dem, ensuring that people vote only once is "pro-Tory voter suppression".
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    GeoffM said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Defence? How? By "collected" they mean "stole" and all that does is add to the offences committed.
    You are a student who voted at home and at university. When challenged you simply point to the article and say that your university vote was used by some random Corbynite, since you didn't use it.

    Since most students vote at the same polling station, and no-one is going to risk impersonating more than one voter at a station, I would be very surprised if there was any industrial-scale personation going on, despite the obvious paranoia of Tory MPs.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited July 2017
    rottenborough said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    BBC Salary day live updates:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/media/live/2017/jul/19/bbc-publishes-salaries-of-highest-earning-stars-live-updates

    Honestly, I can't get in a lather about this. Aren't there many many bigger problems facing the country?
    I cannot get excited by it. A few people in media (like sport, acting or music) get paid very well, but most just scrape by on insecure jobs and pay.

    The BBC is a bastion of our cultural and creative industries, and incubator of new talent.
  • Options
    justin124justin124 Posts: 11,527
    Re- BBC salaries. Whilst I am not really into sport at all and do not personally dislike Gary Lineker, I simply cannot understand why the BBC sees it as appropriate to pay him £2million per annum of licence-payers' money. He has never been a naturally talented broadcaster unlike - say - David Dimbleby or Paxman, and I find it difficult to believe that people tune into a BBC channel on account of his appearing there. When he first became Match of the Day anchorman back in 1996 he was utterly dreadful, and significant resources were used to train him up. Whilst he has improved over the years , even today he is no better than'adequate '- well short of the likes of Des Lynam and David Coleman. Why on earth hasthe BBC effectively wasted so much money on him when there were - and are - others more naturally skilled to do the job and who would willingly do so for a fraction of what he is paid?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    rottenborough said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.
    Students are at least entitled to register twice, genuinely having a home in two locations. Most of the people illegitimately double-registered right now will be landlords and holiday home owners, who are no longer entitled to be on the register at addresses they don't regularly use as a home.

    Remember that the register isn't just used for national elections. In a local election it is reasonable that someone like a student who is genuinely resident in two places should have a say in how those places' local government is run.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    ThreeQuidder said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    rottenborough said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.
    I cannot see a hung parliament co operating with pro-Tory voter suppression. If anyone has evidence ratber than anecdotes of students bragging on twitter then they should take it to the police under existing laws.
    It's interesting how, to a Lib Dem, ensuring that people vote only once is "pro-Tory voter suppression".
    It is already against the law.

    Increasing the requirement for ID etc is classic voter suppression.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    justin124 said:

    Re- BBC salaries. Whilst I am not really into sport at all and do not personally dislike Gary Lineker, I simply cannot understand why the BBC sees it as appropriate to pay him £2million per annum of licence-payers' money. He has never been a naturally talented broadcaster unlike - say - David Dimbleby or Paxman, and I find it difficult to believe that people tune into a BBC channel on account of his appearing there. When he first became Match of the Day anchorman back in 1996 he was utterly dreadful, and significant resources were used to train him up. Whilst he has improved over the years , even today he is no better than'adequate '- well short of the likes of Des Lynam and David Coleman. Why on earth hasthe BBC effectively wasted so much money on him when there were - and are - others more naturally skilled to do the job and who would willingly do so for a fraction of what he is paid?

    They should bring back David Icke.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    edited July 2017
    rottenborough said:

    uote>

    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.

    I agree students should register in one place.

    The other slightly odd aspect of the present system is that students can legally vote twice in Local Elections (I think the same is true of second home owners). But not General Elections, of course.

    I see no reason for this. Students (or second home owners) should be able to vote in Local elections once (like everyone else)
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,313
    justin124 said:

    Re- BBC salaries. Whilst I am not really into sport at all and do not personally dislike Gary Lineker, I simply cannot understand why the BBC sees it as appropriate to pay him £2million per annum of licence-payers' money. He has never been a naturally talented broadcaster unlike - say - David Dimbleby or Paxman, and I find it difficult to believe that people tune into a BBC channel on account of his appearing there. When he first became Match of the Day anchorman back in 1996 he was utterly dreadful, and significant resources were used to train him up. Whilst he has improved over the years , even today he is no better than'adequate '- well short of the likes of Des Lynam and David Coleman. Why on earth hasthe BBC effectively wasted so much money on him when there were - and are - others more naturally skilled to do the job and who would willingly do so for a fraction of what he is paid?

    Jacob?
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    I think showing voter ID was one of the Tory manifesto pledges. One which isn't going to get through parliament.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    foxinsoxuk said:

    rottenborough said:

    CarlottaVance said:

    BBC Salary day live updates:

    https://amp.theguardian.com/media/live/2017/jul/19/bbc-publishes-salaries-of-highest-earning-stars-live-updates

    Honestly, I can't get in a lather about this. Aren't there many many bigger problems facing the country?
    I cannot get excited by it. A few people in media (like sport, acting or music) get paid very well, but most just scrape by on insecure jobs and pay.

    The BBC is a bastion of our cultural and creative industries, and incubator of new talent.
    It is another small part of the picture of wealth and income being sucked up towards the top of organisations; the 'talent' aspect of broadcasting is missing the point (many CEOs see themselves as 'talent', even if many are there through luck or connections). Openness and transparency is a good thing, particularly if taxpayers money is involved.
  • Options
    619619 Posts: 1,784
    YBarddCwsc said:

    rottenborough said:



    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.

    I agree students should register in one place.

    The other slightly odd aspect of the present system is that students can legally vote twice in Local Elections (I think the same is true of second home owners). But not General Elections s, of course.

    I see no reason for this. Students (or second home owners) should be able to vote in Local elections once (like everyone else)
    Do they pay local council tax in both areas? If not, then yes, vote once. if they do, then they should be able to vote once in each council area they have to pay council tax in
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    GeoffM said:

    freetochoose said:

    JosiasJessop said:

    Sean_F said:

    simoninthehills said:

    The abscence of engineers and scientists is surely another piece of evidence that politics, like character, is dispositional not intellectual.

    In my forty years of working with scientists on public issues, it is striking how few of them have much knowledge of, or interest in, how the country they live in works. There is some, highly controversial, evidence that there is a genetic element to the understanding of other people, it is not evenly distributed amongst the population. Is Mr. Meeks observation of this absence of scientists/engineers in the house, in his excellent article, further evidence for this theory? Whilst there are many great scientists who have taken an active part in politics, my suspicion is that they are not proportional to their presence in the general population.

    The 'two cultures' problem is hardly new but the emerging genetic science makes it even more fascinating: and very relevant to politics.

    Given that PBers include quite a few 'quant people' it would be interesting to know what any of them may feel about this issue.

    A lot of great scientists find it difficult to communicate with people outside their field.

    And as a generalisation, I'd say they tend to have a world outlook that makes very little allowance for human nature.

    Those are big drawbacks for politicians.
    But engineers are in many ways the opposite: they have to work with the real world, as the real word doesn't bend to their will.

    I think there might be something deeper: good scientists and engineers believe in process, in testing and planning. These are anathema to many politicians, and often the political process itself.
    I wouldn't read too much into this, the people most in touch with public opinion are hairdressers and bar staff, very few go on to be MPs.
    One of the Ministers out here is an ex taxi driver - he claims that's a real advantage.
    I agree with him, real conversations with people who have nothing to gain.

    Incidentally where is out here?
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    IanB2 said:

    GeoffM said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Defence? How? By "collected" they mean "stole" and all that does is add to the offences committed.
    You are a student who voted at home and at university. When challenged you simply point to the article and say that your university vote was used by some random Corbynite, since you didn't use it.

    Since most students vote at the same polling station, and no-one is going to risk impersonating more than one voter at a station, I would be very surprised if there was any industrial-scale personation going on, despite the obvious paranoia of Tory MPs.
    Oh, I see what you mean. Good point, thanks. I was looking at it backwards/

    Therefore voter photo ID is the way forward.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    619 said:

    YBarddCwsc said:

    rottenborough said:



    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.

    I agree students should register in one place.

    The other slightly odd aspect of the present system is that students can legally vote twice in Local Elections (I think the same is true of second home owners). But not General Elections s, of course.

    I see no reason for this. Students (or second home owners) should be able to vote in Local elections once (like everyone else)
    Do they pay local council tax in both areas? If not, then yes, vote once. if they do, then they should be able to vote once in each council area they have to pay council tax in
    They don't pay Council Tax in either place. Students are exempt.
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    YBarddCwsc said:

    rottenborough said:

    uote>

    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.

    I agree students should register in one place.

    The other slightly odd aspect of the present system is that students can legally vote twice in Local Elections (I think the same is true of second home owners). But not General Elections, of course.

    I see no reason for this. Students (or second home owners) should be able to vote in Local elections once (like everyone else)
    A local election is a local election, and no-one can vote 'twice'. A different local election is a different election.

    Barring students from participating in the local politics of their university town would be utterly wrong. And, to be consistent, would require a similar clampdown on the many others in society with two homes.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,313
    619 said:

    YBarddCwsc said:

    rottenborough said:



    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.

    I agree students should register in one place.

    The other slightly odd aspect of the present system is that students can legally vote twice in Local Elections (I think the same is true of second home owners). But not General Elections s, of course.

    I see no reason for this. Students (or second home owners) should be able to vote in Local elections once (like everyone else)
    Do they pay local council tax in both areas? If not, then yes, vote once. if they do, then they should be able to vote once in each council area they have to pay council tax in
    Indeed. People pay council taxes in each area they live and therefore have the right to vote on how those taxes are spent.
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    foxinsoxuk said:

    ThreeQuidder said:

    foxinsoxuk said:

    rottenborough said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.
    I cannot see a hung parliament co operating with pro-Tory voter suppression. If anyone has evidence ratber than anecdotes of students bragging on twitter then they should take it to the police under existing laws.
    It's interesting how, to a Lib Dem, ensuring that people vote only once is "pro-Tory voter suppression".
    It is already against the law.

    Increasing the requirement for ID etc is classic voter suppression.
    I've always thought it absurd that there is no requirement to show any form of I/D to the polling clerk. As a matter of course, one shows I/D when instructing estate agents or solicitors, or opening a bank account.
  • Options
    Philip_ThompsonPhilip_Thompson Posts: 65,826
    619 said:

    I think showing voter ID was one of the Tory manifesto pledges. One which isn't going to get through parliament.

    Why not? It's already the law in Northern Ireland.
  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    619 said:

    YBarddCwsc said:

    rottenborough said:



    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.

    I agree students should register in one place.

    The other slightly odd aspect of the present system is that students can legally vote twice in Local Elections (I think the same is true of second home owners). But not General Elections s, of course.

    I see no reason for this. Students (or second home owners) should be able to vote in Local elections once (like everyone else)
    Do they pay local council tax in both areas? If not, then yes, vote once. if they do, then they should be able to vote once in each council area they have to pay council tax in
    Full time students are exempt from Council Tax.

    So according to your logic, they should have no vote.

    However, Tony Blair, who owns innumerable properties around the country, can vote innumerable times.

  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    GeoffM said:

    IanB2 said:

    GeoffM said:

    IanB2 said:

    AndyJS said:

    "Conservative MPs fear students collected friends' polling cards to cast multiple ballots for Jeremy Corbyn"

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/07/18/conservative-mps-fear-students-collected-friends-polling-cards/

    Thereby giving anyone actually caught an instant defence. Maybe it won't be so easy to get some prosecutions after all.
    Defence? How? By "collected" they mean "stole" and all that does is add to the offences committed.
    You are a student who voted at home and at university. When challenged you simply point to the article and say that your university vote was used by some random Corbynite, since you didn't use it.

    Since most students vote at the same polling station, and no-one is going to risk impersonating more than one voter at a station, I would be very surprised if there was any industrial-scale personation going on, despite the obvious paranoia of Tory MPs.
    Oh, I see what you mean. Good point, thanks. I was looking at it backwards/

    Therefore voter photo ID is the way forward.
    The ones who boasted on Twitter have no such defence. All they need to do is check and then prosecute a few of those, to 'encourage' (discourage) all the others.
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    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    justin124 said:

    Re- BBC salaries. Whilst I am not really into sport at all and do not personally dislike Gary Lineker, I simply cannot understand why the BBC sees it as appropriate to pay him £2million per annum of licence-payers' money. He has never been a naturally talented broadcaster unlike - say - David Dimbleby or Paxman, and I find it difficult to believe that people tune into a BBC channel on account of his appearing there. When he first became Match of the Day anchorman back in 1996 he was utterly dreadful, and significant resources were used to train him up. Whilst he has improved over the years , even today he is no better than'adequate '- well short of the likes of Des Lynam and David Coleman. Why on earth hasthe BBC effectively wasted so much money on him when there were - and are - others more naturally skilled to do the job and who would willingly do so for a fraction of what he is paid?

    Gary makes MOTD a pleasure with his natural wit and charm. His blatant partisanship for Leicester City is purely a bonus
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,850
    TOPPING said:

    619 said:

    YBarddCwsc said:

    rottenborough said:



    Not quite. There are two types of allegations, the one above and also students voting at home and in their uni town.

    No doubt we need a tightening up on all this, especially registering in more than one place. With postal ballot being widely adopted the is no need for this arcane aspect of the system.

    I agree students should register in one place.

    The other slightly odd aspect of the present system is that students can legally vote twice in Local Elections (I think the same is true of second home owners). But not General Elections s, of course.

    I see no reason for this. Students (or second home owners) should be able to vote in Local elections once (like everyone else)
    Do they pay local council tax in both areas? If not, then yes, vote once. if they do, then they should be able to vote once in each council area they have to pay council tax in
    Indeed. People pay council taxes in each area they live and therefore have the right to vote on how those taxes are spent.
    For the same reason, I'd reinstate the business ratepayers' vote for local elections.
This discussion has been closed.