politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two thirds of Britons want other parties included in the Brexi

System

politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Two thirds of Britons want other parties included in the Brexit negotiations

YouGov has published some polling on whether other parties should be involved in the Brexit negotiations, they found

Read the full story here

SquareRoot

First

SquareRoot

Any poll result such as this cannot be trusted., who knows what weightings are being used and indeed if they are correct.

SquareRoot

third

SquareRoot

fourth

SquareRoot

fifth

TheScreamingEagles

SquareRoot said:

Any poll result such as this cannot be trusted., who knows what weightings are being used and indeed if they are correct.

YouGov have published their weightings, and included in the link above.

Nigelb

SquareRoot said:

fifth

More of an arithmetic progression than a square root.

SquareRoot

TheScreamingEagles said:

SquareRoot said:

Any poll result such as this cannot be trusted., who knows what weightings are being used and indeed if they are correct.

YouGov have published their weightings, and included in the link above.

thanks. Hugely sceptical about any poll about anything.

GIN1138

In theory including lot's of other people in a negotiation is a good idea as it's inclusive and makes things look more transparent.

In practice it doesn't work and just complicates the issue...

Richard_Nabavi

Don't voters always say that about any aspect of government?

In any case, it's a load of nonsense. The problem isn't too little consultation, it's the fact that what the UK ideally wants is not attainable, and therefore compromises are going to have to be made in the negotiation. As always, people seem to think that the nature of Brexit is something to be determined by debate within the UK, without bothering to speak with our EU friends.

I see, BTW, that as I predicted the cost of any deal already seems to be going up as a result of the GE. That is the effect of other parties trying to make political capital out of what was always going to be a very tricky negotiation. What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

Nigelb

That's an intriguing poll result, but how on earth do the respondents propose that Labour should be involved in the negotiations 'on an equal basis' ?

Maybe if we had an extra decade during which to hold the talks...

TheScreamingEagles

Nigelb said:

That's an intriguing poll result, but how on earth do the respondents propose that Labour should be involved in the negotiations 'on an equal basis' ?

Maybe if we had an extra decade during which to hold the talks...

Grand coalition.

Theresa May running the war Brexit.

Clement AttleeJeremy Corbyn in charge of the domestic affairs.

RoyalBlue

TheScreamingEagles said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

Vote for Corbyn

No.

There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.

They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.

The ability of remainers to embrace the batshit craziness of Corbyn & McDonnell is worrying !

Tell me about it, I spent six hours with JohnO of this parish, that's what's really worrying us, and a Brexit recession were it happen = Corbyn landslide.

Oh and the worry that the only way the people will oppose Corbyn's economic policies is when they've had five years of it.

Landslides are much more likely when the left or right is split. Your hero is intensely relaxed about splitting the Tory Party, so he's obviously quite relaxed about such an outcome. I hope the Europhile Tories who actually had the guts to stay in the Commons and argue their case will adopt a more constructive approach.

Then again, that's setting the bar pretty low.

Cameron's my hero.

You own Brexit, George runs a free sheet in London, he has no influence any more.

WE own Brexit. As a party, we own it and must deliver it. I think there's enormous scope for Europhiles to propose improvements to the current plans (e.g. accepting ECJ jurisdiction for Euratom scientists and other minor technical matters) but that is dependent on them not trying to crash the whole process at the same time.

Cameron follows the constructive approach. Osborne sadly does not.

GIN1138

Richard_Nabavi said:

What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

You don't think it's worth swapping Theresa with Boris (I know you aren't a fan of Boris but he is a populist and could take on Corbyn) and having another election in September?

RoyalBlue

Who has commissioned this poll, and why?

There is no point consulting with people who want to bring you down. Labour's position on Brexit is like their position on Maastricht; utterly opportunist and unprincipled.

Nigelb

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

That's an intriguing poll result, but how on earth do the respondents propose that Labour should be involved in the negotiations 'on an equal basis' ?

Maybe if we had an extra decade during which to hold the talks...

Grand coalition.

Theresa May running the war Brexit.

Clement AttleeJeremy Corbyn in charge of the domestic affairs.

Great idea.
Harness the shared sense of national purpose that we had during the war...

Nigelb

RoyalBlue said:

Who has commissioned this poll, and why?

There is no point consulting with people who want to bring you down. Labour's position on Brexit is like their position on Maastricht; utterly opportunist and unprincipled.

I know, unfair of the public to be so utterly unreasonable, isn't it ?

GIN1138

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

That's an intriguing poll result, but how on earth do the respondents propose that Labour should be involved in the negotiations 'on an equal basis' ?

Maybe if we had an extra decade during which to hold the talks...

Grand coalition.

Theresa May running the war Brexit.

Clement AttleeJeremy Corbyn in charge of the domestic affairs.

Now a national government would indeed the the ideal outcome and natural conclusion of what the voters wanted from GE 2017.

However it's not going to happen as Jezza would "betray" all his Momentum backers and become Labour's Ramsay Macdonald...

Danny565

Richard_Nabavi said:

Don't voters always say that about any aspect of government?

In any case, it's a load of nonsense. The problem isn't too little consultation, it's the fact that what the UK ideally wants is not attainable, and therefore compromises are going to have to be made in the negotiation. As always, people seem to think that the nature of Brexit is something to be determined by debate within the UK, without bothering to speak with our EU friends.

Obviously Britain alone won't decide the end results of the negotiations, but we can decide what we want to pitch for in the negotiations. As of now, we still seem to be pitching with the position that May decided with a couple of special advisers back in January, without even any consultation with most in her party, let alone with opposition parties or with the country as a whole.

TOPPING

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

Vote for Corbyn

No.

There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.

They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.

The ability of remainers to embrace the batshit craziness of Corbyn & McDonnell is worrying !

Tell me about it, I spent six hours with JohnO of this parish, that's what's really worrying us, and a Brexit recession were it happen = Corbyn landslide.

Oh and the worry that the only way the people will oppose Corbyn's economic policies is when they've had five years of it.

Landslides are much more likely when the left or right is split. Your hero is intensely relaxed about splitting the Tory Party, so he's obviously quite relaxed about such an outcome. I hope the Europhile Tories who actually had the guts to stay in the Commons and argue their case will adopt a more constructive approach.

Then again, that's setting the bar pretty low.

Cameron's my hero.

You own Brexit, George runs a free sheet in London, he has no influence any more.

WE own Brexit. As a party, we own it and must deliver it. I think there's enormous scope for Europhiles to propose improvements to the current plans (e.g. accepting ECJ jurisdiction for Euratom scientists and other minor technical matters) but that is dependent on them not trying to crash the whole process at the same time.

Cameron follows the constructive approach. Osborne sadly does not.

If the Europhobes didn't have a conniption fit at the first mention of ECJ then we would have a chance at a sensible settlement.

Richard_Nabavi

GIN1138 said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

You don't think it's worth swapping Theresa with Boris (I know you aren't a fan of Boris but he is a populist and could take on Corbyn) and having another election in September?

No! The Article 50 clock is ticking, already too much valuable time has been wasted, and what on earth would happen if the result were much the same, or even more inconclusive? Remember also that voters don't like being troubled with unnecessary elections.

There is only one possible course of action for government and the Conservative Party, which is to follow the advice of Winston Churchill and keep buggering on. We need to get through the Article 50 process, sort out as much of the mess as possible, beef up the party organisation and strategy, and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Possibly it would have been better to have done all that under a different leader (Phil Hammond), but the moment for a swift coup has passed.

GIN1138

Richard_Nabavi said:

GIN1138 said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

You don't think it's worth swapping Theresa with Boris (I know you aren't a fan of Boris but he is a populist and could take on Corbyn) and having another election in September?

No! The Article 50 clock is ticking, already too much valuable time has been wasted, and what on earth would happen if the result were much the same, or even more inconclusive? Remember also that voters don't like being troubled with unnecessary elections.

There is only one possible course of action for government and the Conservative Party, which is to follow the advice of Winston Churchill and keep buggering on. We need to get through the Article 50 process, sort out as much of the mess as possible, beef up the party organisation and strategy, and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its contradictions. Possibly it would have been better to have done all that under a different leader (Phil Hammond), but the moment for a swift coup has passed.

OK.

Philip_Thompson

TOPPING said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

Vote for Corbyn

No.

There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.

They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.

The ability of remainers to embrace the batshit craziness of Corbyn & McDonnell is worrying !

Tell me about it, I spent six hours with JohnO of this parish, that's what's really worrying us, and a Brexit recession were it happen = Corbyn landslide.

Oh and the worry that the only way the people will oppose Corbyn's economic policies is when they've had five years of it.

Landslides are much more likely when the left or right is split. Your hero is intensely relaxed about splitting the Tory Party, so he's obviously quite relaxed about such an outcome. I hope the Europhile Tories who actually had the guts to stay in the Commons and argue their case will adopt a more constructive approach.

Then again, that's setting the bar pretty low.

Cameron's my hero.

You own Brexit, George runs a free sheet in London, he has no influence any more.

WE own Brexit. As a party, we own it and must deliver it. I think there's enormous scope for Europhiles to propose improvements to the current plans (e.g. accepting ECJ jurisdiction for Euratom scientists and other minor technical matters) but that is dependent on them not trying to crash the whole process at the same time.

Cameron follows the constructive approach. Osborne sadly does not.

If the Europhobes didn't have a conniption fit at the first mention of ECJ then we would have a chance at a sensible settlement.

The ECJ should have as much jurisdiction in the UK as the Supreme Court of the United States has in Canada. Is that unreasonable?

Richard_Nabavi

Danny565 said:

Obviously Britain alone won't decide the end results of the negotiations, but we can decide what we want to pitch for in the negotiations. As of now, we still seem to be pitching with the position that May decided with a couple of special advisers back in January, without even any consultation with most in her party, let alone with opposition parties or with the country as a whole.

Her position is much the same as Labour's, and indeed is the only sensible one which respects the referendum result.

TonyE

TOPPING said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

It was often said that the purpose of the Tory party was to clean up the mess after the Labour party had been in govt. Labour's last splurge will be with us for some time to come yet but the Tory party seems to be focused on infighting and Brexit arguments.

I am fairly certain that the purpose of the Labour party is to remind the Tories that they do NOT have a God-given right to govern.

So although I think Labour's policies are bad, I think continuing governance by the Tories in their current state is marginally worse.

Vote for Corbyn

No.

There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.

They are ..uppers.

The ability of ... worrying !

Tell me .... happen = Corbyn landslide.

Oh and the worry that the only way the people will oppose Corbyn's economic policies is when they've had five years of it.

Landslides are much more likely when the left or right is split. Your hero is intensely relaxed about splitting the Tory Party, so he's obviously quite relaxed about such an outcome. I hope the Europhile Tories who actually had the guts to stay in the Commons and argue their case will adopt a more constructive approach.

Then again, that's setting the bar pretty low.

Cameron's my hero.

You own Brexit, George runs a free sheet in London, he has no influence any more.

WE own Brexit. As a party, we own it and must deliver it. I think there's enormous scope for Europhiles to propose improvements to the current plans (e.g. accepting ECJ jurisdiction for Euratom scientists and other minor technical matters) but that is dependent on them not trying to crash the whole process at the same time.

Cameron follows the constructive approach. Osborne sadly does not.

If the Europhobes didn't have a conniption fit at the first mention of ECJ then we would have a chance at a sensible settlement.

It's not Europhobic. But there has to be a recognition that the ECJ isn't a normal court - it exists to protect the 'Project'. In some areas this has little effect, but in many this cannot be acceptable to any free nation state, that a foreign power has jurisdiction above its own courts of law. This is the difference between intergovernmental and supranational.

Scott_P

Richard_Nabavi said:

We need to get through the Article 50 process, ... and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions.

Bless

You think the second is inevitable, whereas Brexit is far more likely to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions, long before Labour

Danny565

Philip_Thompson said:

The ECJ should have as much jurisdiction in the UK as the Supreme Court of the United States has in Canada. Is that unreasonable?

What % of Leave voters do you think were primarily motivated by wanting to leave ECJ jurisdiction?

Alice_Aforethought

I am pleased to report that there are now just 11 Talbot Solaras left on the road in this country:
https://www.howmanyleft.co.uk/?utf8=✓&q=talbot+solara&commit=Search

What is slightly baffling is that there are as many as 41 more that have been SORNed.

If you can't drive the horrible shed, why wouldn't you just scrap it?

A sales rep mate of mine used to wave and gesticulate at Solara drivers at traffic lights and when the driver wound their window down he would say "Oi, mate, do you know your caravan's fallen off?"

rpjs

GIN1138 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

That's an intriguing poll result, but how on earth do the respondents propose that Labour should be involved in the negotiations 'on an equal basis' ?

Maybe if we had an extra decade during which to hold the talks...

Grand coalition.

Theresa May running the war Brexit.

Clement AttleeJeremy Corbyn in charge of the domestic affairs.

Now a national government would indeed the the ideal outcome and natural conclusion of what the voters wanted from GE 2017.

However it's not going to happen as Jezza would "betray" all his Momentum backers and become Labour's Ramsay Macdonald...

Uh, Ramsay MacDonald was Labour's Ramsay MacDonald...

Richard_Nabavi

Scott_P said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

We need to get through the Article 50 process, ... and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions.

Bless

You think the second is inevitable, whereas Brexit is far more likely to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions, long before Labour

The second is certainly inevitable, but you are right that Brexit might well also collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. The best way to minimise that risk (which unfortunately has been hugely increased by the election result) is to follow my suggested course of action and get on with the goddamned negotiations. Introducing yet more uncertainty with a change of leader and another election would simply leave even less time and even more of a political vacuum.

Philip_Thompson

Danny565 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

The ECJ should have as much jurisdiction in the UK as the Supreme Court of the United States has in Canada. Is that unreasonable?

What % of Leave voters do you think were primarily motivated by wanting to leave ECJ jurisdiction?

It doesn't matter.

You can't have a sovereign nation that is subject to another nation's supreme court having precedence over its own. That's an absurdity, please point to any other nation which accepts another nation's supreme court as having precedence over their own?

Once we have left the EU then that is what the ECJ is to us. Another's supreme court, not our own.

TOPPING

Philip_Thompson said:

TOPPING said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

It worbyn

No.

There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.

They are not unfit to govern. And, even if they were, they'd be ten times better than Corbyn/McDonnell who are professional nation fucker-uppers.

The ability of remainers to embrace the batshit craziness of Corbyn & McDonnell is worrying !

Tell me about it, I spent six hours with JohnO of this parish, that's what's really worrying us, and a Brexit recession were it happen = Corbyn landslide.

Oh and the worry that the only way the people will oppose Corbyn's economic policies is when they've had five years of it.

Landslides are much more likely when the left or right is split. Your hero is intensely relaxed about splitting the Tory Party, so he's obviously quite relaxed about such an outcome. I hope the Europhile Tories who actually had the guts to stay in the Commons and argue their case will adopt a more constructive approach.

Then again, that's setting the bar pretty low.

Cameron's my hero.

You own Brexit, George runs a free sheet in London, he has no influence any more.

WE own Brexit. As a party, we own it and must deliver it. I think there's enormous scope for Europhiles to propose improvements to the current plans (e.g. accepting ECJ jurisdiction for Euratom scientists and other minor technical matters) but that is dependent on them not trying to crash the whole process at the same time.

Cameron follows the constructive approach. Osborne sadly does not.

If the Europhobes didn't have a conniption fit at the first mention of ECJ then we would have a chance at a sensible settlement.

The ECJ should have as much jurisdiction in the UK as the Supreme Court of the United States has in Canada. Is that unreasonable?

First off I have no idea what jurisdiction it has. Has it got the power, for example, to extradite Canadian citizens to the US for trial, like it has over us here?

Second, we are talking international trade agreements. While I understand that the ECJ could be seen as being "on their side", we nevertheless need a supranational institution opining on banana curvature if we want to "access" the single market (it is their market, after all).

TheScreamingEagles

Philip_Thompson said:

The ECJ should have as much jurisdiction in the UK as the Supreme Court of the United States has in Canada. Is that unreasonable?

Well not so long ago the highest appellate court of Canada (and many other countries*) was a foreign court, The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council, based in the House of Lords.

To think that a 'foreign court' is unreasonable ignores history and recent legal precedents.

*Jamaica's highest appellate court was The Judicial Committee of the Privy Council until two years ago.

Danny565

I'm starting to think we really should have had a second referendum - but not on whether Brexit should happen at all, but on what type of Brexit we as a country wanted to bid for. I am just not convinced by the "Brexit elite"'s claims that the country is demanding a total "escape" from the ECJ, and ability to strike trade deals around the world, even with the costs that those two things come with.

Charles

SquareRoot said:

fifth

Surely 1 1 2 3 5?

TOPPING

TonyE said:

TOPPING said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

RoyalBlue said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Pulpstar said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

Casino_Royale said:

Beverley_C said:

It was oir current state is marginally worse.

Vote for Corbyn

No.

There are only two options: Tory or Labour.

If the Tories become unfit to govern then there is only one option left. There are no others.

They are ..uppers.

The ability of ... worrying !

Tell me .... happen = Corbyn landslide.

Oh and the worry that the only way the people will oppose Corbyn's economic policies is when they've had five years of it.

e bar pretty low.

Cameron's my hero.

You own Brexit, George runs a free sheet in London, he has no influence any more.

WE own Brexit. As a party, we own it and must deliver it. I think there's enormous scope for Europhiles to propose improvements to the current plans (e.g. accepting ECJ jurisdiction for Euratom scientists and other minor technical matters) but that is dependent on them not trying to crash the whole process at the same time.

Cameron follows the constructive approach. Osborne sadly does not.

If the Europhobes didn't have a conniption fit at the first mention of ECJ then we would have a chance at a sensible settlement.

It's not Europhobic. But there has to be a recognition that the ECJ isn't a normal court - it exists to protect the 'Project'. In some areas this has little effect, but in many this cannot be acceptable to any free nation state, that a foreign power has jurisdiction above its own courts of law. This is the difference between intergovernmental and supranational.

Yep. The project that we want to trade with. Apparently.

Danny565

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

The ECJ should have as much jurisdiction in the UK as the Supreme Court of the United States has in Canada. Is that unreasonable?

What % of Leave voters do you think were primarily motivated by wanting to leave ECJ jurisdiction?

It doesn't matter.

You can't have a sovereign nation that is subject to another nation's supreme court having precedence over its own. That's an absurdity, please point to any other nation which accepts another nation's supreme court as having precedence over their own?

Once we have left the EU then that is what the ECJ is to us. Another's supreme court, not our own.

"It doesn't matter"?!?!

I thought the whole claim from commentators (rightly) was that we have to follow through with Brexit because otherwise faith in democracy won't be respected. But surely a big part of that faith in democracy is also to understand the reasons people voted the way they did?

TonyE

Danny565 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

The ECJ should have as much jurisdiction in the UK as the Supreme Court of the United States has in Canada. Is that unreasonable?

What % of Leave voters do you think were primarily motivated by wanting to leave ECJ jurisdiction?

I certainly think a lot of more educated voters understood that this was a feature of the proposal. But you can ask many less educated voters what they voted for on either side in that referendum and get a lot of answers that certainly wouldn't make any sense if you know how the EU and UK actually work in a legal and bureaucratic sense.

TheScreamingEagles

I think I know what Mike's next thread will be about.

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/885772391523246080

Richard_Tyndall

On topic I would be in this crowd. Matters of such huge constitutional change should be cross party affairs.

stodge

Richard_Nabavi said:

There is only one possible course of action for government and the Conservative Party, which is to follow the advice of Winston Churchill and keep buggering on. We need to get through the Article 50 process, sort out as much of the mess as possible, beef up the party organisation and strategy, and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Possibly it would have been better to have done all that under a different leader (Phil Hammond), but the moment for a swift coup has passed.

OTOH, you could stick with May, go down to a huge defeat in 2022 and spend the next 20 years in Opposition.

Works for me.

The country will be fine if the Conservatives aren't in Government.

Alice_Aforethought

Danny565 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

Danny565 said:

Philip_Thompson said:

The ECJ should have as much jurisdiction in the UK as the Supreme Court of the United States has in Canada. Is that unreasonable?

What % of Leave voters do you think were primarily motivated by wanting to leave ECJ jurisdiction?

It doesn't matter.

You can't have a sovereign nation that is subject to another nation's supreme court having precedence over its own. That's an absurdity, please point to any other nation which accepts another nation's supreme court as having precedence over their own?

Once we have left the EU then that is what the ECJ is to us. Another's supreme court, not our own.

"It doesn't matter"?!?!

I thought the whole claim from commentators (rightly) was that we have to follow through with Brexit because otherwise faith in democracy won't be respected. But surely a big part of that faith in democracy is also to understand the reasons people voted the way they did?

Remainers understand very well, and deprecate, the reasons Leavers voted as they did. The trouble is that they don't agree amongst themselves what those reasons were, which makes it hard to hate them on a consistent basis.

Richard_Nabavi

stodge said:

The country will be fine if the Conservatives aren't in Government.

You should retain that thought and come back to it in the event of a Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott government. I absolutely, 100%, guarantee that you will eat your words.

Scott_P

Richard_Nabavi said:

The second is certainly inevitable, but you are right that Brexit might well also collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. The best way to minimise that risk (which unfortunately has been hugely increased by the election result) is to follow my suggested course of action and get on with the goddamned negotiations. Introducing yet more uncertainty with a change of leader and another election would simply leave even less time and even more of a political vacuum.

Oh dear, I agree with you. Sorry.

Changing Tory leader would be waste of time and effort. Another referendum on the original terms, would be futile. A normal general election would return no better result than we have now

Danny565 said:

I'm starting to think we really should have had a second referendum - but not on whether Brexit should happen at all, but on what type of Brexit we as a country wanted to bid for. I am just not convinced by the "Brexit elite"'s claims that the country is demanding a total "escape" from the ECJ, and ability to strike trade deals around the world, even with the costs that those two things come with.

This is sort of what I was hinting at yesterday

I propose a Brexit election, with a view to electing a Government of Brexit unity

The candidates stand on Brexit platforms, not party platforms.

1. WTO
2. Norway
3. Revoke A50

The PM would then be 'elected' by the winning faction. Could be Soubry, Thornberry, Wishart...

DavidL

Richard_Tyndall said:

On topic I would be in this crowd. Matters of such huge constitutional change should be cross party affairs.

Agreed. It was one of the reasons I think that the government should have taken Mandelson's offer to help with the negotiations seriously.

foxinsoxuk

TheScreamingEagles said:

SquareRoot said:

Any poll result such as this cannot be trusted., who knows what weightings are being used and indeed if they are correct.

YouGov have published their weightings, and included in the link above.

I did this Yougov, there were a number of other Brexit related questions, and on voting reform. We may just be able to squeeze in an AV thread in amongst the Leave/Remain brickbats.

SquareRoot

stodge said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

There is only one possible course of action for government and the Conservative Party, which is to follow the advice of Winston Churchill and keep buggering on. We need to get through the Article 50 process, sort out as much of the mess as possible, beef up the party organisation and strategy, and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Possibly it would have been better to have done all that under a different leader (Phil Hammond), but the moment for a swift coup has passed.

OTOH, you could stick with May, go down to a huge defeat in 2022 and spend the next 20 years in Opposition.

Works for me.

The country will be fine if the Conservatives aren't in Government.

Why post something you know not to be true Every Labour Govt has eventually trashed the economy in the last 50 yrs.

TheScreamingEagles

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SquareRoot said:

Any poll result such as this cannot be trusted., who knows what weightings are being used and indeed if they are correct.

YouGov have published their weightings, and included in the link above.

I did this Yougov, there were a number of other Brexit related questions, and on voting reform. We may just be able to squeeze in an AV thread in amongst the Leave/Remain brickbats.

There's an AV thread written and waiting to be published.

I think it will go up either Sunday or Monday.

foxinsoxuk

rpjs said:

GIN1138 said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

Nigelb said:

That's an intriguing poll result, but how on earth do the respondents propose that Labour should be involved in the negotiations 'on an equal basis' ?

Maybe if we had an extra decade during which to hold the talks...

Grand coalition.

Theresa May running the war Brexit.

Clement AttleeJeremy Corbyn in charge of the domestic affairs.

Now a national government would indeed the the ideal outcome and natural conclusion of what the voters wanted from GE 2017.

However it's not going to happen as Jezza would "betray" all his Momentum backers and become Labour's Ramsay Macdonald...

Uh, Ramsay MacDonald was Labour's Ramsay MacDonald...

I think TSE was making a point about Corbyn being Labour's second Attlee, who was Deputy PM for five years before taking power in a landslide, then transforming the country with nationalisation and expansion of the welfare state.

foxinsoxuk

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SquareRoot said:

Any poll result such as this cannot be trusted., who knows what weightings are being used and indeed if they are correct.

YouGov have published their weightings, and included in the link above.

I did this Yougov, there were a number of other Brexit related questions, and on voting reform. We may just be able to squeeze in an AV thread in amongst the Leave/Remain brickbats.

There's an AV thread written and waiting to be published.

I think it will go up either Sunday or Monday.

Excited dance!

stodge

Richard_Nabavi said:

You should retain that thought and come back to it in the event of a Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott government. I absolutely, 100%, guarantee that you will eat your words.

Well, according to some fear-mongers on the Right, words will be about all we have to eat after a couple of years of Corbyn.

The only problem is, that's wrong.

I'm NOT saying a Corbyn Government will be a success and it's clear some, whose patriotism extends only as far as their wallet, will see the election of Corbyn as a chance to send a message by sending either themselves, their money or both offshore.

There will be an initial period of ideologically-driven policy excess which will last 12-18 months before some form of crisis hits after which a more technocratic approach will be followed. Corbyn will be more like MacMillan as Prime Minister and the real power will lie with McDonnell who will not want to see the whole Government sacrificed on the altar of a few ideologues and will throw the likes of Abbott overboard.

The 2020s may not be a comfortable time whichever party is in Government as Britain tries to find its place post-EU but I simply don't see the apocalyptic visions conjured by the pro-Conservative media.

PClipp

Richard_Nabavi said:

I see, BTW, that as I predicted the cost of any deal already seems to be going up as a result of the GE. That is the effect of other parties trying to make political capital out of what was always going to be a very tricky negotiation. What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

Wouldn`t you rather say, Mr Navabi, that it comes a result of the Conservatives trying to make political capital out of it? Let`s just keep the blame where it rightly belongs.

PClipp

SquareRoot said:

stodge said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

There is only one possible course of action for government and the Conservative Party, which is to follow the advice of Winston Churchill and keep buggering on. We need to get through the Article 50 process, sort out as much of the mess as possible, beef up the party organisation and strategy, and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Possibly it would have been better to have done all that under a different leader (Phil Hammond), but the moment for a swift coup has passed.

OTOH, you could stick with May, go down to a huge defeat in 2022 and spend the next 20 years in Opposition.
Works for me.
The country will be fine if the Conservatives aren't in Government.

Why post something you know not to be true Every Labour Govt has eventually trashed the economy in the last 50 yrs.

Yes, better still if Labour are nowhere near government either.......

Pulpstar

Cycling:

Lay Froome for the overall I think. Doesn't look an odds on shot to me right now.

MarkHopkins

Richard_Nabavi said:

stodge said:

The country will be fine if the Conservatives aren't in Government.

You should retain that thought and come back to it in the event of a Corbyn/McDonnell/Abbott government. I absolutely, 100%, guarantee that you will eat your words.

At least stodge will have something to eat...

Richard_Nabavi

stodge said:

[snip] the real power will lie with McDonnell [snip]

Yes, exactly. That is precisely the biggest danger of all. Corbyn is a bumbling buffoon, with bonkers views. McDonnell has the same, or even worse, bonkers views, but is less bumbling, and much nastier.

What you seem to be missing is that the Labour Party now is not like the relatively harmless Labour Party we have known in the past; it has been taken over by a very extreme faction.

Danny565

Richard_Nabavi said:

stodge said:

[snip] the real power will lie with McDonnell [snip]

Yes, exactly. That is precisely the biggest danger of all. Corbyn is a bumbling buffoon, with bonkers views. McDonnell has the same, or even worse, bonkers views, but is less bumbling, and much nastier.

What you seem to be missing is that the Labour Party now is not like the relatively harmless Labour Party we have known; it has been taken over by a very extreme faction.

But you were also making these melodramatic claims about a possible Ed Miliband government a few years ago.

"Boy Who Cried Wolf" comes to mind....

nichomar

Are their no costs or potential damage to the UK that leavers still consider worth the paying/incuring to leave? The usual answer is its "scaremongering" but at what point would leavers out there say its not worth it?

Richard_Nabavi

Danny565 said:

But you were also making these melodramatic claims about a possible Ed Miliband government a few years ago..

No I wasn't. A Miliband government would have been bad (and a Miliband government in thrall to the SNP even worse), but only within the normal limits of bad; think François Hollande or Gordon Brown. At least Ed Balls as Chancellor would have been within the limits of the sane. Life would have gone on, and economy wouldn't have collapsed, although it would have been badly affected. Corbyn/McDonnell (and Abbott, FFS!) are in a completely different league of extremist lunacy.

Nigelb

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

foxinsoxuk said:

TheScreamingEagles said:

SquareRoot said:

Any poll result such as this cannot be trusted., who knows what weightings are being used and indeed if they are correct.

YouGov have published their weightings, and included in the link above.

I did this Yougov, there were a number of other Brexit related questions, and on voting reform. We may just be able to squeeze in an AV thread in amongst the Leave/Remain brickbats.

There's an AV thread written and waiting to be published.

I think it will go up either Sunday or Monday.

Excited dance!

Shouldn't the AV thread, like the nuclear deterrent, be kept in a constant state of readiness, but never used ?

BannedInParis

Danny565 said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

stodge said:

[snip] the real power will lie with McDonnell [snip]

Yes, exactly. That is precisely the biggest danger of all. Corbyn is a bumbling buffoon, with bonkers views. McDonnell has the same, or even worse, bonkers views, but is less bumbling, and much nastier.

What you seem to be missing is that the Labour Party now is not like the relatively harmless Labour Party we have known; it has been taken over by a very extreme faction.

But you were also making these melodramatic claims about a possible Ed Miliband government a few years ago.

"Boy Who Cried Wolf" comes to mind....

In Hollande, we have a good indicator of just what a Miliband government would have looked like. Incompetent, blinkered, best forgotten and left to the alternative history text books.

BannedInParis

"There will be an initial period of ideologically-driven policy excess which will last 12-18 months"

right.

you're selling it to me hard here.

FF43

Richard_Nabavi said:

Don't voters always say that about any aspect of government?

In any case, it's a load of nonsense. The problem isn't too little consultation, it's the fact that what the UK ideally wants is not attainable, and therefore compromises are going to have to be made in the negotiation. As always, people seem to think that the nature of Brexit is something to be determined by debate within the UK, without bothering to speak with our EU friends.

I see, BTW, that as I predicted the cost of any deal already seems to be going up as a result of the GE. That is the effect of other parties trying to make political capital out of what was always going to be a very tricky negotiation. What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

Oh I don't know. It was very mitigated from my point of view. A strong and stable Maybot wasn't on my priority list.

Nigelb

Silverstone... Mercedes look ominously quick against the rest, though Ferrari have improved a bit, which should please Mr.D.
Hamilton for pole & the win, barring mechanical problems, I think (don't be fooled by his mistake in FP2 which cost him fastest lap).

calum

https://twitter.com/FT/status/885858953955078145

volcanopete

Richard_Nabavi said:

stodge said:

[snip] the real power will lie with McDonnell [snip]

Yes, exactly. That is precisely the biggest danger of all. Corbyn is a bumbling buffoon, with bonkers views. McDonnell has the same, or even worse, bonkers views, but is less bumbling, and much nastier.

What you seem to be missing is that the Labour Party now is not like the relatively harmless Labour Party we have known in the past; it has been taken over by a very extreme faction.

Non sense.John is a lovely bloke.He can trust a man who likes a bit of sailing on the Broads,just as Mr Corbyn can be because of his allotment.Their lifestyle shows they are quite sane and understand how to keep their sanity.Both are very similar to Churchill,who used to lay bricks and build walls for the same reason and both are men of sobriety.Try to remember,if John McDonnell could balance a legal budget for the GLC under Ken Livingstone's GLC,the nation's finances should be a piece of pee for him.As for Diane Abbot,Isn't it more than appropriate that the nation's 1st black female MP should be in a senior position on the front bench?

GeoffM

nichomar said:

Are their no costs or potential damage to the UK that leavers still consider worth the paying/incuring to leave? The usual answer is its "scaremongering" but at what point would leavers out there say its not worth it?

The price of freedom may be high, but never so costly as the loss of freedom.

R Reagan

FF43

I think the question in the poll is inaccurate. The DUP can't decide everything on their own. They have to consult a little with the Conservatives

NickPalmer

Danny565 said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

stodge said:

[snip] the real power will lie with McDonnell [snip]

Yes, exactly. That is precisely the biggest danger of all. Corbyn is a bumbling buffoon, with bonkers views. McDonnell has the same, or even worse, bonkers views, but is less bumbling, and much nastier.

What you seem to be missing is that the Labour Party now is not like the relatively harmless Labour Party we have known; it has been taken over by a very extreme faction.

But you were also making these melodramatic claims about a possible Ed Miliband government a few years ago.

"Boy Who Cried Wolf" comes to mind....

It's interesting that Tories have moved on from "Corbyn is an evil Marxist mastermind" to "Corbyn's an amiable buffer manipulated by McDonnell, who is an evil Marxist mastermind". In particular, Richard has taken a half-sentence from Danny's post (which basically said that McDonnell was sensible) and used it in precisely the opposite meaning.

There is no question that Corbyn is the idealist and McDonnell the wily politician of the two, though McDonnell has a sense of humour that leads him into beartraps of his own making at times (cf. the little Red Book stunt). I think the Tory caricatures of both are misleading, and McDonnell has made a more serious effort that Ed Balls did to have a coherent manifesto with a stab at full costing. He is unlikely to lead us into serious economic trouble, though I suspect he'd be much more likely than Corbyn to scrap manifesto promises to avoid it. People concerned about the country should be glad he's on the team; ironically, serious Marxist ideologues should feel a little uneasy. He is, basically, a realistic politician.

CarlottaVance

Another reason for holding the GE in 2022:

https://www.politicshome.com/news/uk/political-parties/snp/alex-salmond/news/87506/alex-salmond-says-he-will-stand-next-general

stevef

Only a minority think that other parties should be included on an equal basis with the Tory government.
I think the reality is that there is still a substantial minority of people (about the 35% who want other parties to have equal representation) who are determined to frustrate Brexit, either by stipping it altogether, or by getting us out on on the same terms that we were in, with no control of our borders, freedom of movement and the EU still in control over the UK.

Brom

TheScreamingEagles said:

I think I know what Mike's next thread will be about.

https://twitter.com/MSmithsonPB/status/885772391523246080

Next up: Why all pedophiles vote remain!

Richard_Nabavi

NickPalmer said:

It's interesting that Tories have moved on from "Corbyn is an evil Marxist mastermind" to "Corbyn's an amiable buffer manipulated by McDonnell, who is an evil Marxist mastermind". In particular, Richard has taken a half-sentence from Danny's post (which basically said that McDonnell was sensible) and used it in precisely the opposite meaning.
[snip]

You are rewriting history there, Nick! No-one ever claimed Corbyn was a mastermind of any sort, evil or otherwise. Rather the opposite, in fact.

Morris_Dancer

Good afternoon, everyone.

Bracketing together two wildly different options is statistical shenanigans.

A consultation and on equal basis to the government are hugely different.

F1: just checked the timings and Bottas topped both sessions, with tiny leads over Hamilton. Got to say, if Bottas beats Hamilton this weekend I'd be rather pleased.

marke09

Elgin City North (Moray) result: CON: 40.0% (+7.0) SNP: 38.8% (+6.1) LAB: 15.8% (+3.8) IND: 5.4% (-16.9) Con GAIN from Independent.

surbiton

Richard_Nabavi said:

NickPalmer said:

It's interesting that Tories have moved on from "Corbyn is an evil Marxist mastermind" to "Corbyn's an amiable buffer manipulated by McDonnell, who is an evil Marxist mastermind". In particular, Richard has taken a half-sentence from Danny's post (which basically said that McDonnell was sensible) and used it in precisely the opposite meaning.
[snip]

You are rewriting history there, Nick! No-one ever claimed Corbyn was a mastermind of any sort, evil or otherwise. Rather the opposite, in fact.

Who is re-writing history ? Even last week Richard was insisting the Tories did not get dirty enough.

Richard_Nabavi

surbiton said:

Who is re-writing history ? Even last week Richard was insisting the Tories did not get dirty enough.

No I wasn't, I was insisting that they never got round to exposing the reality of Corbyn and McDonnell to the electorate (and I certainly never called Corbyn a mastermind!!). Which is obvious enough, given the truly shocking figure of how many people voted Labour despite that reality.

surbiton

calum said:

https://twitter.com/FT/status/885858953955078145

Recession is here. We were booking space in a exhibition at the NEC for next year. The asking price was £400 a sq.m. Obviously, we played hard ball. My Marketing Manager got it for £220 sq.ft including sponsoring the event.

Even six months ago , we were having difficulty getting space at £320 per sq.ft.

MarkHopkins

surbiton said:

calum said:

https://twitter.com/FT/status/885858953955078145

Recession is here. We were booking space in a exhibition at the NEC for next year. The asking price was £400 a sq.m. Obviously, we played hard ball. My Marketing Manager got it for £220 sq.ft including sponsoring the event.

Even six months ago , we were having difficulty getting space at £320 per sq.ft.

Perhaps the thought of a Corbyn government is scaring people.

Roger

Richard_Nabavi said:

What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

A bigger disaster than the Referendum result?

eek

You didn't negotiate that well if it started off a £400 a sq m and you are now paying £220 a sq ft.. (hint there are 10.7sq ft to a sq m)

CarlottaVance

marke09 said:

Elgin City North (Moray) result: CON: 40.0% (+7.0) SNP: 38.8% (+6.1) LAB: 15.8% (+3.8) IND: 5.4% (-16.9) Con GAIN from Independent.

So the Scottish Tory Conservative & Unionist surge continues......

rottenborough

BannedInParis said:

Danny565 said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

stodge said:

[snip] the real power will lie with McDonnell [snip]

Yes, exactly. That is precisely the biggest danger of all. Corbyn is a bumbling buffoon, with bonkers views. McDonnell has the same, or even worse, bonkers views, but is less bumbling, and much nastier.

What you seem to be missing is that the Labour Party now is not like the relatively harmless Labour Party we have known; it has been taken over by a very extreme faction.

But you were also making these melodramatic claims about a possible Ed Miliband government a few years ago.

"Boy Who Cried Wolf" comes to mind....

In Hollande, we have a good indicator of just what a Miliband government would have looked like. Incompetent, blinkered, best forgotten and left to the alternative history text books.

Look at Ed's Shadow Cabinet. Ed Balls as CoE; Yvette as Home Office etc etc

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadow_Cabinet_of_Ed_Miliband

Compare that with the potential incoming Labour government under Corbyn.

619

NickPalmer said:

Danny565 said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

stodge said:

[snip] the real power will lie with McDonnell [snip]

Yes, exactly. That is precisely the biggest danger of all. Corbyn is a bumbling buffoon, with bonkers views. McDonnell has the same, or even worse, bonkers views, but is less bumbling, and much nastier.

What you seem to be missing is that the Labour Party now is not like the relatively harmless Labour Party we have known; it has been taken over by a very extreme faction.

But you were also making these melodramatic claims about a possible Ed Miliband government a few years ago.

"Boy Who Cried Wolf" comes to mind....

It's interesting that Tories have moved on from "Corbyn is an evil Marxist mastermind" to "Corbyn's an amiable buffer manipulated by McDonnell, who is an evil Marxist mastermind". In particular, Richard has taken a half-sentence from Danny's post (which basically said that McDonnell was sensible) and used it in precisely the opposite meaning.

There is no question that Corbyn is the idealist and McDonnell the wily politician of the two, though McDonnell has a sense of humour that leads him into beartraps of his own making at times (cf. the little Red Book stunt). I think the Tory caricatures of both are misleading, and McDonnell has made a more serious effort that Ed Balls did to have a coherent manifesto with a stab at full costing. He is unlikely to lead us into serious economic trouble, though I suspect he'd be much more likely than Corbyn to scrap manifesto promises to avoid it. People concerned about the country should be glad he's on the team; ironically, serious Marxist ideologues should feel a little uneasy. He is, basically, a realistic politician.

Perceptive. I think that's true.

Its the same under-estimation of the two from most people on here. Attacking them in this manner didn't work in June, won't work next time.

Richard_Nabavi

Roger said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

A bigger disaster than the Referendum result?

It's the combination which is particularly disastrous, because trying to negotiate Brexit from a position of government weakness and instability makes it hard, or perhaps even impossible, to reach a sensible deal.

Morris_Dancer

Incidentally, the 40% of the 35%, who believe the Greens should have equal footing with the Conservatives in negotiation, are off their bloody rockers.

Pulpstar

Once again no way Froome should be even money for the Tour at this point.

DecrepitJohnL

MarkHopkins said:

surbiton said:

calum said:

https://twitter.com/FT/status/885858953955078145

Recession is here. We were booking space in a exhibition at the NEC for next year. The asking price was £400 a sq.m. Obviously, we played hard ball. My Marketing Manager got it for £220 sq.ft including sponsoring the event.

Even six months ago , we were having difficulty getting space at £320 per sq.ft.

Perhaps the thought of a Corbyn government is scaring people.

Since the election, it is surely the near-certainty of Conservative government till 2022 that is scaring business.

williamglenn

Richard_Nabavi said:

Roger said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

A bigger disaster than the Referendum result?

It's the combination which is particularly disastrous, because trying to negotiate Brexit from a position of government weakness and instability makes it hard, or perhaps even impossible, to reach a sensible deal.

A different way of looking at it is that it makes it easier to see that a 'sensible deal' is impossible while we still have time to do something about it.

rottenborough

MarkHopkins said:

surbiton said:

calum said:

https://twitter.com/FT/status/885858953955078145

Recession is here. We were booking space in a exhibition at the NEC for next year. The asking price was £400 a sq.m. Obviously, we played hard ball. My Marketing Manager got it for £220 sq.ft including sponsoring the event.

Even six months ago , we were having difficulty getting space at £320 per sq.ft.

Perhaps the thought of a Corbyn government is scaring people.

We were probably due a recession soon anyway, just on the normal cycles.

Throw in Brexit and Corbyn concerns and the fact that the UK economy seems to have been kept going over last couple of years based on massive personal debt increases on credit cards, car loans etc and we are in for a rocky time.

foxinsoxuk

Richard_Nabavi said:

Roger said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

What an unmitigated disaster the GE result was.

A bigger disaster than the Referendum result?

It's the combination which is particularly disastrous, because trying to negotiate Brexit from a position of government weakness and instability makes it hard, or perhaps even impossible, to reach a sensible deal.

On the contrary, it was a good election result. Ideally the Tories another dozen down and LDs a dozen up, but a good one that forces the government to listen. May has a tin ear though, so needs to go.

Morris_Dancer

Mr. Pulpstar, think he's a dead cert?

Richard_Nabavi

foxinsoxuk said:

On the contrary, it was a good election result. Ideally the Tories another dozen down and LDs a dozen up, but a good one that forces the government to listen. May has a tin ear though, so needs to go.

You are one of the many making the error of thinking that the nature of Brexit is somehow determinable by an internal British debate. This is one of the most bizarre, and bizarrely widespread, errors of current politics.

Morris_Dancer

Dr. Foxinsox, that might be true if the Leader of the Opposition weren't a member of the far left.

David_Evershed

surbiton said:

calum said:

https://twitter.com/FT/status/885858953955078145

Recession is here. We were booking space in a exhibition at the NEC for next year. The asking price was £400 a sq.m. Obviously, we played hard ball. My Marketing Manager got it for £220 sq.ft including sponsoring the event.

Even six months ago , we were having difficulty getting space at £320 per sq.ft.

£400 a sq m is a lower price than £220 a sq ft.

You should sack your Marketing Manager.

surbiton

Richard_Nabavi said:

surbiton said:

Who is re-writing history ? Even last week Richard was insisting the Tories did not get dirty enough.

No I wasn't, I was insisting that they never got round to exposing the reality of Corbyn and McDonnell to the electorate (and I certainly never called Corbyn a mastermind!!). Which is obvious enough, given the truly shocking figure of how many people voted Labour despite that reality.

So your opt-out is that you did not use the word "mastermind". We heard nothing but how Corbyn and McDonnell were friends of terrorists. Maybe, their street cred even went up.

Of course, two month is a long time in politics. The fulsome praise heaped upon Corbyn by May in the 5 Live interview was mind blowing ! This guy was a terrorist lover only a few weeks back !

surbiton

eek said:

You didn't negotiate that well if it started off a £400 a sq m and you are now paying £220 a sq ft.. (hint there are 10.7sq ft to a sq m)

OK. Smart Alec. Sq.m all the way.

Pulpstar

Morris_Dancer said:

Mr. Pulpstar, think he's a dead cert?

No I've laid him, though he has improved since I bet. But I still don't think he shd be odds on.

surbiton

SquareRoot said:

stodge said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

There is only one possible course of action for government and the Conservative Party, which is to follow the advice of Winston Churchill and keep buggering on. We need to get through the Article 50 process, sort out as much of the mess as possible, beef up the party organisation and strategy, and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Possibly it would have been better to have done all that under a different leader (Phil Hammond), but the moment for a swift coup has passed.

OTOH, you could stick with May, go down to a huge defeat in 2022 and spend the next 20 years in Opposition.

Works for me.

The country will be fine if the Conservatives aren't in Government.

Why post something you know not to be true Every Labour Govt has eventually trashed the economy in the last 50 yrs.

Black Wednesday !

GeoffM

surbiton said:

SquareRoot said:

stodge said:

Richard_Nabavi said:

There is only one possible course of action for government and the Conservative Party, which is to follow the advice of Winston Churchill and keep buggering on. We need to get through the Article 50 process, sort out as much of the mess as possible, beef up the party organisation and strategy, and leave time for Corbyn to burn out and Labour's unity to collapse under the weight of its own contradictions. Possibly it would have been better to have done all that under a different leader (Phil Hammond), but the moment for a swift coup has passed.

OTOH, you could stick with May, go down to a huge defeat in 2022 and spend the next 20 years in Opposition.

Works for me.

The country will be fine if the Conservatives aren't in Government.

Why post something you know not to be true Every Labour Govt has eventually trashed the economy in the last 50 yrs.

Black Wednesday !

White Wednesday!