Prison policy is either (a) privatise or (b) build superprisons miles from anywhere and stuff them to the gills. Neither seems to have worked. It is a shame the government won the case to stop prisoners voting.
Your last sentence is a total non-sequiter.
However, I agree prison reform is an urgent issue. And I'm depressed the Government hasn't done more in this area.
I suspect the real issue is that it's not a politically resonant area in which to spend limited public funds.
Can you imagine having to work as one of those poor prison officers?
It must be one of the worst jobs in the country.
Prisons vary a lot. Gartree prison is all lifers and seems a decent place within obvious limits. Leicester Prison is pretty hellish place, being short term before prisoners are despatched elsewhere. Recently it was inspected, but didn't know how many prisoners it had, a fairly core bit of knowledge.
As Hurd said, prison is an expensive way to make bad people worse, to which we should add that it also is a strong strand of Islamist radicalism.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
+1
-1
-2
-3
If a person's behaviour leads them to deal out insults, and patronise and provoke those whom they disagree with, they it always seems to be "personal" when they're called out on it with a taste of their own medicine and they cry wolf at the first opportunity.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I am sitting here watching my country hurtle down the road to oblivion and you are chiding me because I do not believe in "My country - right or wrong"? I am supposed to have a stiff upper lip and put on my diamonds and best gown and discuss the weather with tuxedo clad gents whilst the ship sinks under us all?
Get over yourself. The 19th Century is long gone.
Brexit is about the future, not the past.
If you weren't such a hyperbolic dimwit, you'd recognise that.
Deluded thinking. The future is about greater and closer international co-operation, and Brexit is Britain (England) trying to stop the world and get off.
Brexit is exactly about greater and closer international co-operation.
To reach the wider world we've got to step beyond our back yard.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Sorry I thought we were on an open forum, my mistake obviously.
But to what extent has the growth in student numbers brought about an increase in academic and administrative staff at the universities? Much of the effect is to be seen in much bigger seminar/tutorial groups and fewer hours of direct teaching or student contact with tutors. I suspect that the quality of many courses is now much lower compared with the 1970s & 1980s.
I don't disagree.
My point is that it will be hard for Labour to trim the Universities because they are attacking their own voters. See Theresa May and Dementia Tax to find out what happens.
There is no way round redundancies in the Universities if Labour don't pay 9250 per student for 1.75 million students. Which equals 16 or so billion pounds per year.
Reduce the number of students or reduce the fee, and you are firing University staff.
In fact, it may well be the right decision for the country to cut back the University sector -- but cuts mean pain (and University cuts mean pain for predominantly Labour voters).
Prison policy is either (a) privatise or (b) build superprisons miles from anywhere and stuff them to the gills. Neither seems to have worked. It is a shame the government won the case to stop prisoners voting.
Your last sentence is a total non-sequiter.
However, I agree prison reform is an urgent issue. And I'm depressed the Government hasn't done more in this area.
I suspect the real issue is that it's not a politically resonant area in which to spend limited public funds.
Can you imagine having to work as one of those poor prison officers?
It must be one of the worst jobs in the country.
Prisons vary a lot. Gartree prison is all lifers and seems a decent place within obvious limits. Leicester Prison is pretty hellish place, being short term before prisoners are despatched elsewhere. Recently it was inspected, but didn't know how many prisoners it had, a fairly core bit of knowledge.
As Hurd said, prison is an expensive way to make bad people worse, to which we should add that it also is a strong strand of Islamist radicalism.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I am sitting here watching my country hurtle down the road to oblivion and you are chiding me because I do not believe in "My country - right or wrong"? I am supposed to have a stiff upper lip and put on my diamonds and best gown and discuss the weather with tuxedo clad gents whilst the ship sinks under us all?
Get over yourself. The 19th Century is long gone.
Brexit is about the future, not the past.
If you weren't such a hyperbolic dimwit, you'd recognise that.
Deluded thinking. The future is about greater and closer international co-operation, and Brexit is Britain (England) trying to stop the world and get off.
Brexit is exactly about greater and closer international co-operation.
To reach the wider world we've got to step beyond our back yard.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
Get over yourself. The 19th Century is long gone.
Brexit is about the future, not the past.
If you weren't such a hyperbolic dimwit, you'd recognise that.
Deluded thinking. The future is about greater and closer international co-operation, and Brexit is Britain (England) trying to stop the world and get off.
Bollocks.
If you listened to Gove, Hannan, Carswell, or Cummings, you'd know that Brexit is about more globalisation, not less, and sees the EU as the past, not the future.
So many knobs on here totally obsessed with their own parodies of Brexit and their own stupid characterisations of it.
You are confusing the idle dreaming of a few proponents with the reality of the consequences of the decision we have taken. Sadly for us and for our country, the stupid characterisations of Brexit are mostly coming from its advocates.
FWIW, I think a lot of that comes from its opponents as well.
It should be clear that EEA-EFTA is something that the country could settle down around - we've tested it a lot on here, for starters.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Sorry I thought we were on an open forum, my mistake obviously.
It is. But my comments weren't directed at you.
If they needed to be, they would be, I can assure you.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
Yep. Coming over like a cornered, injured, rabid weasel right now.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I am sitting here watching my country hurtle down the road to oblivion and you are chiding me because I do not believe in "My country - right or wrong"? I am supposed to have a stiff upper lip and put on my diamonds and best gown and discuss the weather with tuxedo clad gents whilst the ship sinks under us all?
Get over yourself. The 19th Century is long gone.
Brexit is about the future, not the past.
If you weren't such a hyperbolic dimwit, you'd recognise that.
Deluded thinking. The future is about greater and closer international co-operation, and Brexit is Britain (England) trying to stop the world and get off.
Brexit is exactly about greater and closer international co-operation.
To reach the wider world we've got to step beyond our back yard.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Are you OK Casino?
This is how Brexit ends. Not with a bang but with a wimper.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
+1
-1
-2
+5
That's cheating.
What does clicking the "love" or "pride" button equate to on here?
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Are you OK Casino?
This is how Brexit ends. Not with a bang but with a wimper.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Are you OK Casino?
This is how Brexit ends. Not with a bang but with a wimper.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
Yep. Coming over like a cornered, injured, rabid weasel right now.
There's a list somewhere on the internet - I think it's very imaginatively called The List - which is all of the things that global warming nutters have attributed to "climate change". Fewer blue smarties; that sort of thing. All with supporting documentation to show the nuttiness.
I hope someone is doing the same for Brexit. I might actually, thinking about it, take that on as a project.
In the event that no agreement is reached between the UK and rEU, would this mean that all rEU citizens in the UK and all UK citizens in the rEU would become illegal aliens in March 2019 and hence subject to deportation?
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
Yep. Coming over like a cornered, injured, rabid weasel right now.
Probably the same as me, sick to death of the outright disgusting untruths perpetrated here by Project Desperation.
You need to get some self awareness tablets, because right now you are peddling complete and utter bollocks as if it the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Are you OK Casino?
This is how Brexit ends. Not with a bang but with a wimper.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than financE
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I am sitting here watching my country hurtle down the road to oblivion and you are chiding me because I do not believe in "My country - right or wrong"? I am supposed to have a stiff upper lip and put on my diamonds and best gown and discuss the weather with tuxedo clad gents whilst the ship sinks under us all?
Get over yourself. The 19th Century is long gone.
Brexit is about the future, not the past.
If you weren't such a hyperbolic dimwit, you'd recognise that.
Deluded thinking. The future is about greater and closer international co-operation, and Brexit is Britain (England) trying to stop the world and get off.
Brexit is exactly about greater and closer international co-operation.
To reach the wider world we've got to step beyond our back yard.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Are you OK Casino?
This is how Brexit ends. Not with a bang but with a wimper.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Are you OK Casino?
This is how Brexit ends. Not with a bang but with a wimper.
Another saddo speaks.
You might want to look in the mirror
Did about 10 minutes ago, thanks.
I need a shave but other than that I'm looking ok.
In the event that no agreement is reached between the UK and rEU, would this mean that all rEU citizens in the UK and all UK citizens in the rEU would become illegal aliens in March 2019 and hence subject to deportation?
If the EU continue to be as ridiculously unreasonable as they are now, then that is entirely possible but will not be our fault.
In the event that no agreement is reached between the UK and rEU, would this mean that all rEU citizens in the UK and all UK citizens in the rEU would become illegal aliens in March 2019 and hence subject to deportation?
Yes.... in 626 days, 21 hours, 58 minutes.
I'm buying shares in cattle trucks and sharp sticks.
You are confusing the idle dreaming of a few proponents with the reality of the consequences of the decision we have taken. Sadly for us and for our country, the stupid characterisations of Brexit are mostly coming from its advocates.
Your own characterisation, "The future is about greater and closer international co-operation" is a paraphrase of "ever closer union" which the country rejected last year. But you still hark back to that golden ideal. Who is the "idle dreamer"?
In the event that no agreement is reached between the UK and rEU, would this mean that all rEU citizens in the UK and all UK citizens in the rEU would become illegal aliens in March 2019 and hence subject to deportation?
If the EU continue to be as ridiculously unreasonable as they are now, then that is entirely possible but will not be our fault.
Regardless of whose fault it would be, exchanging millions of largely able-bodied, working people for hundreds of thousands of pensioners from Spain would surely bring the NHS to its knees.
For their own sake, if not the country's sake, the Conservatives need a leader who can tell the party we are as a matter of necessity going for Single Market with freedom of movement, ECJ and customs union. There are only two viable options for the UK and if you don't like the Single Market, the other one is full membership of the EU, which you and the country as a whole rejected.
Otherwise the nightmare for the party and the country will go on and on and on. It doesn't matter what you thought you voted for. There will be no comprehensive trade agreement with the EU in the near future. They have no interest in replicating a system they already have just because the UK, a country that they owe no favours to, demands it. There will be no system of trade deals with other countries to make up. The Single Market is the only possible way of putting the EU thing to bed. We go from being half in the EU to being half out, declare the job done. And move on.
One wonders how countries like Canada, Japan and Australia manage given the only viable options for national survival are the EU and the EU in all but name.
It's not impossible but Japan has a long-term-meh economy, and that's despite a substantially bigger domestic population than the UK.
Canada and Australia have huge land masses with lots of natural resources, which makes for quite a different kind of economy.
What does New Zealand have?
Lots of agricultural commodities.
And Norway has fish and oil? Iceland has fish? Switzerland has cuckoo clocks? As far as I can tell it's just a lot of excuses as to why other countries don't have to surrender lots of political sovereignty to trade, whilst the UK does.
Colour me unconvinced.
By far the best "compare" for the UK is Switzerland. It's a similarly advanced economy with limited natural resources and dependent on trade for its prosperity.
But Australia, Canada and New Zealand are all commodity economies. We cannot be like them, because we don't have the resources.
Mrs C, economically things worked pretty well (although it's telling that the single market was completed in areas other than finance).
Politically, that is not the case. If the economic aspect had been available without the politics, I would've happily voted for that. But the EU demands ever more power and is constantly shifting it from nation-states to the centre. Failed referendum results are either ignored or re-run until acceptance is given to EU centralisation. Brown reneged upon a manifesto commitment to a referendum on Lisbon, and now the EU Army, derided as a myth by federalists, is coming ever closer.
We've got to make a choice, ultimately.
Yes Mr Dancer - we do have to make a choice.
I find it remarkable that someone like me who spent years as a mild BOO-er has now shifted to the pro-EU side of the fence and it is Brexit that made me shift. Our handling of Brexit is just making me more and more convinced that the UK is no longer fit for purpose. It is time for Federal Europe. We need to shift our viewpoint to a more integrationist role were we, the Germans and the Nordic countries take control of the EU and liberalise it.
That seems to me to be a grander vision than retreating to a 1957 Mk2 Peak Blighty.
Yes, you have moved over to the dark side and embraced treason, betrayal and double-crossed thinking. And now you feel qualified to gleefully hurl insults the other way, in a childish and petulant manner.
I have far more respect for Labour/Tory Remainers and posters on here than you.
Nobody likes a turncoat that turns enthusiastically on ones former allies. My opinion of you couldn't be lower.
I suspect a lot of us are thinking the same about you with your ill judged and unwarrented personal attacks on Mrs C
I wasn't talking to you.
Mind your own business.
Are you OK Casino?
This is how Brexit ends. Not with a bang but with a wimper.
Comments
As Hurd said, prison is an expensive way to make bad people worse, to which we should add that it also is a strong strand of Islamist radicalism.
If a person's behaviour leads them to deal out insults, and patronise and provoke those whom they disagree with, they it always seems to be "personal" when they're called out on it with a taste of their own medicine and they cry wolf at the first opportunity.
To reach the wider world we've got to step beyond our back yard.
My point is that it will be hard for Labour to trim the Universities because they are attacking their own voters. See Theresa May and Dementia Tax to find out what happens.
There is no way round redundancies in the Universities if Labour don't pay 9250 per student for 1.75 million students. Which equals 16 or so billion pounds per year.
Reduce the number of students or reduce the fee, and you are firing University staff.
In fact, it may well be the right decision for the country to cut back the University sector -- but cuts mean pain (and University cuts mean pain for predominantly Labour voters).
That is my point.
@odysseanproject: 1/ Govt MORONS say they're withdrawing from EURATOM. Near-retarded on every dimension: policy/politics/science/bureaucratic
It should be clear that EEA-EFTA is something that the country could settle down around - we've tested it a lot on here, for starters.
He seems to have grumpiness issues.
If they needed to be, they would be, I can assure you.
What does clicking the "love" or "pride" button equate to on here?
https://order-order.com/2017/07/10/brexit-wont-cause-cancer/
Are you saying we will never, ever trade with the EU again?
I hope someone is doing the same for Brexit. I might actually, thinking about it, take that on as a project.
You need to get some self awareness tablets, because right now you are peddling complete and utter bollocks as if it the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.
Try to move on. They have.
I need a shave but other than that I'm looking ok.
I suppose it's similar to the Ulster Crisis of 1912-14, albeit without the threat of an insurgency.
I'm buying shares in cattle trucks and sharp sticks.
NEW THREAD
But Australia, Canada and New Zealand are all commodity economies. We cannot be like them, because we don't have the resources.