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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It looks like David Davis will ensure the Brexit delivered is

SystemSystem Posts: 12,260
edited July 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It looks like David Davis will ensure the Brexit delivered is exactly as Vote Leave campaigned for (sans the £350m for the NHS)

Ministers dash business hopes of transitional Brexit deal https://t.co/N58qbJtyAp

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    edited July 2017
    The downside to a lengthy transition is what, exactly?

    Edit: OK; having read to the end, DD foresees a "political backlash". This is presumably him signalling that he is a resolute 'ard brexiteer, in advance of a possible leadership contest.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    Ishmael_Z said:

    The downside to a lengthy transition is what, exactly?

    Farage and the hardcore get the horn over leaving Brexiteers will make the life of the government untenable.

    I suspect if Labour were lead by a passionate pro-European the situation might be different.
  • LeedsprinterLeedsprinter Posts: 94
    Ishmael_Z said:

    The downside to a lengthy transition is what, exactly?

    Political backlash from leave voters. Like me.
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    Ishmael_Z said:

    The downside to a lengthy transition is what, exactly?

    Uncertainty over what we're transitioning to and whether it will happen.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,529
    edited July 2017
    Absolutely insane.

    "The government will do all it can to minimise the shock to business."

    Says the Chancellor of the Exchequer, of an entirely voluntary policy course.

  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,288
    edited July 2017
    Everything the government does appears to make Brexit actually happening ever less likely.
  • MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    Leedsprinter said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The downside to a lengthy transition is what, exactly?

    Political backlash from leave voters. Like me.
    Nothing like the backlash that will come as business leaders take their businesses and jobs out of this country .
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,529
    IanB2 said:

    Everything the government does appears to make Brexit actually happening ever less likely.

    Who exactly is the government playing chicken with? The EU? Itself? Or you and me?
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    The government will deliver Brexit according to what they believe are the whims of their party supporters, not what people at large think, nor what's good for the country.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    If Davis sticks to the above, there will be trouble ahead. There is no majority support for Brexit today.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    Matt is an absolute genius at putting two stories together
    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/883388899497660416
  • FF43FF43 Posts: 17,402
    You may notice that the government defines everything Brexit related in the negative. We are not going to be Norway; we're not having a lengthy transition; we're not paying large sums of money; we won't be bound by the ECJ; we won't be part of a customs union:; we won't allow parliament to have a vote.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,103
    FF43 said:

    The government will deliver Brexit according to what they believe are the whims of their party supporters, not what people at large think, nor what's good for the country.

    It looks very much like hard ball at this stage which in a difficult negotiation you would expect but not good for those of a nervous disposition
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited July 2017
    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.
  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635
    Turns out Brexit does in fact mean Brexit.

    Who knew :o ?
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,141
    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    Didn't Labour's manifesto also say they would leave the single market/customs union?
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846
    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    Before we get to the stage of another referendum, Brexit will have to have tested itself to utter destruction so that Leave will be struggling to reach 30%.

    Davis seems to be doing his duty by pouring fuel on the funeral pyre.
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,529
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    FF43 said:

    The government will deliver Brexit according to what they believe are the whims of their party supporters, not what people at large think, nor what's good for the country.

    It looks very much like hard ball at this stage which in a difficult negotiation you would expect but not good for those of a nervous disposition
    In what sense it is hardball to reject one of the most obvious, easiest and least harmful Brexits?
  • PeterCPeterC Posts: 1,275
    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    It is not as easy as that. A50 has been legislated and the EU treaties are automatically disapplied in March 2019, deal or no deal.

    To stop Brexit the A50 enabling Act would have to be repealed and the EU27 would have to agree to the revoking of A50. A referendum would also require to be legislated. Legislation is vitually impossible outside of the government business agenda.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846
    Gardenwalker said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    FF43 said:

    The government will deliver Brexit according to what they believe are the whims of their party supporters, not what people at large think, nor what's good for the country.

    It looks very much like hard ball at this stage which in a difficult negotiation you would expect but not good for those of a nervous disposition
    In what sense it is hardball to reject one of the most obvious, easiest and least harmful Brexits?
    As you said, the question is who are they playing hardball with? It's really a domestic negotiation; a domestic battle.

    Their mistake was winning the referendum and then inviting the EU to play chicken. Do that and you end up as roadkill.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    Didn't Labour's manifesto also say they would leave the single market/customs union?
    Certainly, nothing Davis and Hammond have said contradicts what Corbyn and Starmer have said either. Both Labour and the Tories are committed to leaving the single market and the customs union to control free movement, a transition period does not stop that eventuality. Of the main parties only the LDs maintain the pretence of keeping membership of the single market
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    Always said Andy Murray is a brilliant scottish British tennis player...
  • FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 82,546
    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/07/kagiso-rabada-suspended-second-test-ben-stokes

    I think the ICC should f##k off. What a stupid ruling .
  • currystarcurrystar Posts: 1,171
    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy
  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,529
    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,141
    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    30 years is the par waiting period. :p
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Didn't I say this? Proper Brexit is baked in. Opponents are too disparate and too indecisive to block it.

    EVERY TIME the Eurosages here assured us that it is Soft Brexit or no Brexit they have been wrong.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?

  • GardenwalkerGardenwalker Posts: 21,529
    Mortimer said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?

    Our representatives.

    Currently failing to represent, as you say.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846
    Mortimer said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?
    It starts with people directly involved in the process changing their minds. Do they have enough strength of conviction to get through two years with most of the country against them and with the rest of the world looking on in bemusement?
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,380
    Pulpstar said:

    Turns out Brexit does in fact mean Brexit.

    Who knew :o ?

    Proper Brexit for Proper People :)
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,141
    williamglenn said:

    Mortimer said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?
    It starts with people directly involved in the process changing their minds. Do they have enough strength of conviction to get through two years with most of the country against them and with the rest of the world looking on in bemusement?
    Most of the country against them?
  • FenmanFenman Posts: 1,047
    MarkSenior said:

    Leedsprinter said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The downside to a lengthy transition is what, exactly?

    Political backlash from leave voters. Like me.
    Nothing like the backlash that will come as business leaders take their businesses and jobs out of this country .
    Spot on, Mark. Our economic decline will be dire. God knows what terms we can expect in 20 years time.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,380
    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,103
    williamglenn said:

    Mortimer said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?
    It starts with people directly involved in the process changing their minds. Do they have enough strength of conviction to get through two years with most of the country against them and with the rest of the world looking on in bemusement?
    I believe a key moment will be when the EU demand an exit fee. All polls have shown resistance to a fee and outright rejection of 100 billion suggested by some on the EU side.

    UK opinion could swing very much against the EU if they overplay their hand
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,141
    Fenman said:

    MarkSenior said:

    Leedsprinter said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The downside to a lengthy transition is what, exactly?

    Political backlash from leave voters. Like me.
    Nothing like the backlash that will come as business leaders take their businesses and jobs out of this country .
    Spot on, Mark. Our economic decline will be dire. God knows what terms we can expect in 20 years time.
    Even the treasury forecast wasn't that bad :D
  • PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited July 2017
    Sandpit said:

    Matt is an absolute genius at putting two stories together
    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/883388899497660416

    That is good.

    But redefining impartiality? pft. When Blair was backed into a corner, he tried this on with Hutton/Gilligan. Governments bullsh*t all the time and need to be constantly questioned about stuff that doesn't add up.

    The blue brexiteers need to ask themselves whether they still want an independent BBC to be around holding a Corbyn government to account
  • stodgestodge Posts: 14,056
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    They look like the trains on the Thameslink line from Three Bridges built by Siemens.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,141
    edited July 2017
    stodge said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    They look like the trains on the Thameslink line from Three Bridges built by Siemens.
    Nice photos. How did you get a sneak peek? :o

    Edit: ah, they aren't actually empty :D
  • Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    https://twitter.com/mshelicat/status/883424217630466048
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    I don't like the lack of yellow on the front of the train. I'm surprised the unions aren't kicking off about it. And aside from the safety aspect I think it just looks wrong.
  • RobDRobD Posts: 60,141
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/mshelicat/status/883424217630466048

    What about one with the EU?
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    Mortimer said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?
    It starts with people directly involved in the process changing their minds. Do they have enough strength of conviction to get through two years with most of the country against them and with the rest of the world looking on in bemusement?
    I believe a key moment will be when the EU demand an exit fee. All polls have shown resistance to a fee and outright rejection of 100 billion suggested by some on the EU side.

    UK opinion could swing very much against the EU if they overplay their hand
    Or maybe it will swing against the Brexiteers who said we could exit cost-free
  • nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    So we've gone from Newsnight saying brexit probably won't happen to no transitional period inside the single market?

    Maybe everyone should stop giving a running commentary.
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    tlg86 said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    I don't like the lack of yellow on the front of the train. I'm surprised the unions aren't kicking off about it. And aside from the safety aspect I think it just looks wrong.
    No other railway in the world requires yellow fronts now. There are better, more sophisticated ways of warning trackside workers that a train is coming now then painting it yellow.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    edited July 2017
    williamglenn said:

    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    Before we get to the stage of another referendum, Brexit will have to have tested itself to utter destruction so that Leave will be struggling to reach 30%.

    Davis seems to be doing his duty by pouring fuel on the funeral pyre.
    I asked last night but didn't see a reply ( apols if you wrote one): do you identify with Wilson in Dad's Army? Genuinely interested.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,103
    not_on_fire said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    Mortimer said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?
    It starts with people directly involved in the process changing their minds. Do they have enough strength of conviction to get through two years with most of the country against them and with the rest of the world looking on in bemusement?
    I believe a key moment will be when the EU demand an exit fee. All polls have shown resistance to a fee and outright rejection of 100 billion suggested by some on the EU side.

    UK opinion could swing very much against the EU if they overplay their hand
    Or maybe it will swing against the Brexiteers who said we could exit cost-free
    I do not see the UK voter paying a substantial exit fee, indeed can anyone imagine any politician endorsing a large exit fee. The vast majority will say no
  • Chris_AChris_A Posts: 1,237
    They're all mad the lot of them. The electors will not put up with the disruption caused by the Tory ultra Brexiteers.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Scott_P said:

    https://twitter.com/mshelicat/status/883424217630466048

    Hammond is cranking up the pace. Virtually, talking against the government line. How long is Theresa going to tolerate this ? Or , is this part of the strategy ?
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    not_on_fire said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    I don't like the lack of yellow on the front of the train. I'm surprised the unions aren't kicking off about it. And aside from the safety aspect I think it just looks wrong.
    No other railway in the world requires yellow fronts now. There are better, more sophisticated ways of warning trackside workers that a train is coming now then painting it yellow.
    No other railway in the world has a safety record as good as our's.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    Chris_A said:

    They're all mad the lot of them. The electors will not put up with the disruption caused by the Tory ultra Brexiteers.

    One needs to consider the possibility that the electors really don't like the EU.
  • sealo0sealo0 Posts: 48
    O/t I'm amazed over the last 7 months I have been polled by Yougov three times.

    First time this year was in February and then not once until Fri 30th June and again just now. Both very political and this time a little more about Brexit.

    So not once during the election but twice since.

    I do not recall seeing any results from the pol of the 30th June. I'll wait and see if we get results from this one?

    Mike
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    FrancisUrquhart said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/07/kagiso-rabada-suspended-second-test-ben-stokes

    I think the ICC should f##k off. What a stupid ruling .

    Not at all. It is not as if this is a first offence and he is being punished for this alone. There should be no place in Cricket for deliberate physical contact nor for swearing at other players. If he is dumb enough to ignore the rules he deserves all he gets.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    edited July 2017
    Pong said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt is an absolute genius at putting two stories together
    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/883388899497660416

    That is good.

    But redefining impartiality? pft. When Blair was backed into a corner, he tried this on with Hutton/Gilligan. Governments bullsh*t all the time and need to be constantly questioned about stuff that doesn't add up.

    The blue brexiteers need to ask themselves whether they still want an independent BBC to be around holding a Corbyn government to account
    For all that's said, I do actually think the BBC is reasonable when it comes to impartiality between Lab and Con, although maybe this wasn't the case at the height of Blair's popularity they've worked hard to restore a balance and they're not Corbyn's biggest fans.

    Between Leave and Remain though, I think they've regressed to 1997 all over again. It's not just the BBC either, Sky News and C4 News have the same problem that almost everyone who works for them took the same side of an issue which split the country outside of their middle class metropolitan bubble.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,103
    Chris_A said:

    They're all mad the lot of them. The electors will not put up with the disruption caused by the Tory ultra Brexiteers.

    To be honest no one has a clue how this will work out or how public opinion will evolve.

    Politics for the foreseeable future is unpredictable and volatile and opinions will ebb and flow.

    Been enjoying watching cricket, tennis and golf today with the Lions in the morning. Far better and much more rewarding than obsessing over the controversies of the day. Think we all need to chill out a bit
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    not_on_fire said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    I don't like the lack of yellow on the front of the train. I'm surprised the unions aren't kicking off about it. And aside from the safety aspect I think it just looks wrong.
    No other railway in the world requires yellow fronts now. There are better, more sophisticated ways of warning trackside workers that a train is coming now then painting it yellow.
    https://www.rssb.co.uk/News/Pages/making-sure-trains-are-seen-and-heard.aspx
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    Very EU. Keep voting till we get the pro EU answer. What then? Best of three?

    And what of the anger of those who will feel democracy has been subverted? Why bother with it? The clever dicks in Westminster will just ignore you.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    MarkSenior said:

    Leedsprinter said:

    Ishmael_Z said:

    The downside to a lengthy transition is what, exactly?

    Political backlash from leave voters. Like me.
    Nothing like the backlash that will come as business leaders take their businesses and jobs out of this country .
    Just like they did after we didn't join the Euro... oh.

    Businesses will decide where to base themselves based on their own financial interests. This will not just be the level of tariffs but dozens of other factors including the availability of trained skilled workforce, infrastructure and, probably most importantly, the tax arrangements.

    Besides being in the EU has facilitated the move of many jobs out of the UK to other countries, not least because in some cases the EU have provided grants for the moves.
  • williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 52,846
    welshowl said:

    williamglenn said:

    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    Before we get to the stage of another referendum, Brexit will have to have tested itself to utter destruction so that Leave will be struggling to reach 30%.

    Davis seems to be doing his duty by pouring fuel on the funeral pyre.
    I asked last night but didn't see a reply ( apols if you wrote one): do you identify with Wilson in Dad's Army? Genuinely interested.
    No, but I'm intrigued that my online personality might come across that way.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    FrancisUrquhart said:

    https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2017/jul/07/kagiso-rabada-suspended-second-test-ben-stokes

    I think the ICC should f##k off. What a stupid ruling .

    Not at all. It is not as if this is a first offence and he is being punished for this alone. There should be no place in Cricket for deliberate physical contact nor for swearing at other players. If he is dumb enough to ignore the rules he deserves all he gets.
    Yes, reading the report it wasn't the first time he's been in trouble and it's the accumulation of minor offences that have led to the ban. We've also seen rugby and cycling authorities come down hard on serious gamesmanship this week, and F1 authorities fail to do so.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,103
    Sandpit said:

    Pong said:

    Sandpit said:

    Matt is an absolute genius at putting two stories together
    https://twitter.com/Telegraph/status/883388899497660416

    That is good.

    But redefining impartiality? pft. When Blair was backed into a corner, he tried this on with Hutton/Gilligan. Governments bullsh*t all the time and need to be constantly questioned about stuff that doesn't add up.

    The blue brexiteers need to ask themselves whether they still want an independent BBC to be around holding a Corbyn government to account
    For all that's said, I do actually think the BBC is reasonable when it comes to impartiality between Lab and Con, although maybe this wasn't the case at the height of Blair's popularity they've worked hard to restore a balance and they're not Corbyn's biggest fans.

    Between Leave and Remain though, I think they've regressed to 1997 all over again. It's not just the BBC either, Sky News and C4 News have the same problem that almost everyone who works for them took the same side of an issue which split the country outside of their middle class metropolitan bubble.
    Sky news was the channel we watched all the time but the likes of Islam and Rigby together with others have driven us to watching the BBC who on the whole are not too bad compared to Sky
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited July 2017
    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Surrey > Essex.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    Erm, go and read the thread header. Proper Brexit it is.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    You have made it patently clear you neither understand nor respect democracy. It is no wonder you are such a Euroloon. You share their contempt for the democratic process.

  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    Erm, go and read the thread header. Proper Brexit it is.
    Getting frit, eh ? Is Hammond on your side ?
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    Erm, go and read the thread header. Proper Brexit it is.
    Getting frit, eh ? Is Hammond on your side ?
    Not at all. I'm confident we'll Brexit and that it will massively reduce low paid immigration.

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    So you are suggesting we should have another vote in 40 years time? Or do you want a fresh vote every two years no matter what the result?

    Of course what we all know is that had the vote gone the other way you would not be calling for a fresh referendum after a couple of years. You would have said the matter was settled for another generation or two.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,380
    not_on_fire said:

    tlg86 said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    I don't like the lack of yellow on the front of the train. I'm surprised the unions aren't kicking off about it. And aside from the safety aspect I think it just looks wrong.
    No other railway in the world requires yellow fronts now. There are better, more sophisticated ways of warning trackside workers that a train is coming now then painting it yellow.
    The Tube trains don't have yelllow ends - even though most of the network is above ground.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    I suppose we have a right to be nervous when people like you take the view that we have no right to secede, regardless of the wishes of the majority.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    You have made it patently clear you neither understand nor respect democracy. It is no wonder you are such a Euroloon. You share their contempt for the democratic process.

    Parliament is sovereign. It can pass an Act to hold a referendum on any subject it deems proper by a majority voting for it.

    That is democracy.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    williamglenn said:

    welshowl said:

    williamglenn said:

    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    Before we get to the stage of another referendum, Brexit will have to have tested itself to utter destruction so that Leave will be struggling to reach 30%.

    Davis seems to be doing his duty by pouring fuel on the funeral pyre.
    I asked last night but didn't see a reply ( apols if you wrote one): do you identify with Wilson in Dad's Army? Genuinely interested.
    No, but I'm intrigued that my online personality might come across that way.
    Hmm. Well it does to me. All respect for your views, which are anathema to me, but fair play to you expressing them and all that. But Wilson seems to fit pretty well in many respects ( not suggesting you are sleeping with Mrs Pike on the side though!!).

  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    surbiton said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    You have made it patently clear you neither understand nor respect democracy. It is no wonder you are such a Euroloon. You share their contempt for the democratic process.

    Parliament is sovereign. It can pass an Act to hold a referendum on any subject it deems proper by a majority voting for it.

    That is democracy.
    So a vote every two years it is then.


  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    surbiton said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    You have made it patently clear you neither understand nor respect democracy. It is no wonder you are such a Euroloon. You share their contempt for the democratic process.

    Parliament is sovereign. It can pass an Act to hold a referendum on any subject it deems proper by a majority voting for it.

    That is democracy.
    The people are sovereign, you dolt. Parliament is elected by the people.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    I suppose we have a right to be nervous when people like you take the view that we have no right to secede, regardless of the wishes of the majority.
    There could always be a majority, in fact, a large one to stay IN. You know by now in your heart of hearts that there will be no Brexit.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,380
    stodge said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    They look like the trains on the Thameslink line from Three Bridges built by Siemens.
    The Class 700 trains are Siemens, the Class 345s on Crossrail are "Aventra" family built by Bombardier at Derby.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    You have made it patently clear you neither understand nor respect democracy. It is no wonder you are such a Euroloon. You share their contempt for the democratic process.

    Parliament is sovereign. It can pass an Act to hold a referendum on any subject it deems proper by a majority voting for it.

    That is democracy.
    So a vote every two years it is then.


    Whenever, Parliament wants one actually. By your argument, there should not have been a referendum in 2016 since we already had one in 1975.
  • surbitonsurbiton Posts: 13,549
    edited July 2017
    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    Erm, go and read the thread header. Proper Brexit it is.
    Getting frit, eh ? Is Hammond on your side ?
    Not at all. I'm confident we'll Brexit and that it will massively reduce low paid immigration.

    And, suitably price ourselves out of international markets and also lead to higher prices at home.
  • SandpitSandpit Posts: 55,520
    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    The nervousness comes from hearing the constant complaint of a vocal minority, who don't wish to respect the result the people gave to the question of EU membership only a year ago.
  • Sunil_PrasannanSunil_Prasannan Posts: 52,380
    RobD said:

    stodge said:

    Sunil_Prasannan said:

    **Trainspotting post**

    Some crazy ubergeek took a lot of brand new Class 345 Crossrail* train pics today!

    https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Special:Search&limit=50&offset=0&ns0=1&ns6=1&ns9=1&ns12=1&ns14=1&ns100=1&ns106=1&search=Class+345+Sunil060902&searchToken=4kvsqy1azdqq8a8fxunvyjff6

    * or should I say "Elizabeth Line" :)

    They look like the trains on the Thameslink line from Three Bridges built by Siemens.
    Nice photos. How did you get a sneak peek? :o

    Edit: ah, they aren't actually empty :D
    I had to ask on Great Eastern Railway Society's email list, but they directed me to the Real Time Trains website, which revealed the timings:

    Mon-Fri
    1035 from Liverpool Street arrives 1118 Shenfield
    1139 from Shenfield arrives 1225 Liverpool Street

    That's the only round trip currently operated by the new trains!
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    edited July 2017
    Just listened to a interview with Ian Hislop where he described himself as an unashamed Remoaner who would continue Remoaning indefinitely. As he said when a Party loses an election it doesn't pack its bags and give up.....

    But the point is that the intelligent media, business, the professions, the City, academia and the vast majority of thinking people are on the same side and for that reason I really can see it happening.

    The other side might have a slightly larger army but against all the generals and modern weaponry it counts for nothing. It's now easier to visualize this government-and even the next- falling than theresa May's version of Brexit ever becoming enacted.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    I suppose we have a right to be nervous when people like you take the view that we have no right to secede, regardless of the wishes of the majority.
    There could always be a majority, in fact, a large one to stay IN. You know by now in your heart of hearts that there will be no Brexit.
    Who are you really trying to convince?
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    Roger said:

    Just listened to a interview with Ian Hislop where he described himself as an unashamed Remoaner who would continue Remoaning indefinitely. As he said when a Party loses an election it doesn't pack its bags and say it's all yours.....

    But the point is that the intelligent media business the professions the City academia the vast majority of thinking people (and we all know what that means are on one side and for that reason I really can see it happening.

    The other side might have a slightly larger army but against all the generals and modern weaponry it counts for nothing. It's now easier to visualize this government-and even the next- falling than theresa May's version of Brexit ever becoming enacted.

    Yes I know, all the nice people who holiday in Tuscany and eat truffles think it's a frightful idea so it won't happen.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    I suppose we have a right to be nervous when people like you take the view that we have no right to secede, regardless of the wishes of the majority.
    There could always be a majority, in fact, a large one to stay IN. You know by now in your heart of hearts that there will be no Brexit.
    No, I don't know that.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    sealo0 said:

    O/t I'm amazed over the last 7 months I have been polled by Yougov three times.

    First time this year was in February and then not once until Fri 30th June and again just now. Both very political and this time a little more about Brexit.

    So not once during the election but twice since.

    I do not recall seeing any results from the pol of the 30th June. I'll wait and see if we get results from this one?

    Mike

    Yougov have just polled me on AV and Scottish type PR etc.

    One to look out for!
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    Roger said:

    Just listened to a interview with Ian Hislop where he described himself as an unashamed Remoaner who would continue Remoaning indefinitely. As he said when a Party loses an election it doesn't pack its bags and give up.....

    But the point is that the intelligent media, business, the professions, the City, academia and the vast majority of thinking people are on the same side and for that reason I really can see it happening.

    The other side might have a slightly larger army but against all the generals and modern weaponry it counts for nothing. It's now easier to visualize this government-and even the next- falling than theresa May's version of Brexit ever becoming enacted.

    Armies of determined peasants frequently do rather well against better armed, but less committed, opponents.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    Erm, go and read the thread header. Proper Brexit it is.
    Getting frit, eh ? Is Hammond on your side ?
    Not at all. I'm confident we'll Brexit and that it will massively reduce low paid immigration.

    And, suitably price ourselves out of international markets and also lead to higher prices at home.
    Eh? Our company's non European business is booming not entirely unconnected to the fall in Sterling. We can always remove the tariff barrier on world food too and eat South African rather than French apples.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    welshowl said:

    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    Erm, go and read the thread header. Proper Brexit it is.
    Getting frit, eh ? Is Hammond on your side ?
    Not at all. I'm confident we'll Brexit and that it will massively reduce low paid immigration.

    And, suitably price ourselves out of international markets and also lead to higher prices at home.
    Eh? Our company's non European business is booming not entirely unconnected to the fall in Sterling. We can always remove the tariff barrier on world food too and eat South African rather than French apples.
    And New Zealand rather than Welsh lamb.
  • MortimerMortimer Posts: 14,158
    I've just had my best ever July.

    Yes, already, by the 7th. The economy seems to be going gangbusters.
  • tlg86tlg86 Posts: 26,274
    Lol! BBC piece on migrants in France end by saying one family want to move to the UK because they like the government!
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    edited July 2017
    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    Didn't Labour's manifesto also say they would leave the single market/customs union?
    Certainly, nothing Davis and Hammond have said contradicts what Corbyn and Starmer have said either. Both Labour and the Tories are committed to leaving the single market and the customs union to control free movement, a transition period does not stop that eventuality. Of the main parties only the LDs maintain the pretence of keeping membership of the single market
    Labour's manifesto said: "We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. "

    Nothing about leaving the single market/customs union unless I have missed it.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    not_on_fire said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    Mortimer said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?
    It starts with people directly involved in the process changing their minds. Do they have enough strength of conviction to get through two years with most of the country against them and with the rest of the world looking on in bemusement?
    I believe a key moment will be when the EU demand an exit fee. All polls have shown resistance to a fee and outright rejection of 100 billion suggested by some on the EU side.

    UK opinion could swing very much against the EU if they overplay their hand
    Or maybe it will swing against the Brexiteers who said we could exit cost-free
    I do not see the UK voter paying a substantial exit fee, indeed can anyone imagine any politician endorsing a large exit fee. The vast majority will say no
    I agree. It is why the talks will halt and hard Brexit happen.

    Hard Brexit is the default option and just 20 short months away. A modicum of preparation would be wise.
  • welshowlwelshowl Posts: 4,464
    foxinsoxuk said:

    welshowl said:

    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Mortimer said:

    surbiton said:

    Sean_F said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    What would you do if you lost a second time around? Argue for best out of five?
    We voted to stay in in 1975. If that vote can be overturned by another referendum, then we can have another one, as long as Parliament passes the Act to do so. Parliament is sovereign, remember.

    Lets face it, you lot are getting nervous that there will be no Brexit after all. No Soft, hard, runny whatever. The game is up.
    Erm, go and read the thread header. Proper Brexit it is.
    Getting frit, eh ? Is Hammond on your side ?
    Not at all. I'm confident we'll Brexit and that it will massively reduce low paid immigration.

    And, suitably price ourselves out of international markets and also lead to higher prices at home.
    Eh? Our company's non European business is booming not entirely unconnected to the fall in Sterling. We can always remove the tariff barrier on world food too and eat South African rather than French apples.
    And New Zealand rather than Welsh lamb.
    Quite. I'm not dying in the ditch for a couple of thousand hill farmers ( who may go upmarket and sell as "local lamb" for all I know) at the expense of the 99.999% of us who are not lamb producers. I don't get sheltered from world markets in my line of work so I don't expect to pay subsidies for others so to be.
  • Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 32,726
    surbiton said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    You have made it patently clear you neither understand nor respect democracy. It is no wonder you are such a Euroloon. You share their contempt for the democratic process.

    Parliament is sovereign. It can pass an Act to hold a referendum on any subject it deems proper by a majority voting for it.

    That is democracy.
    So a vote every two years it is then.


    Whenever, Parliament wants one actually. By your argument, there should not have been a referendum in 2016 since we already had one in 1975.
    Since what we entered in 1973 bears no comparison to what we are leaving I would suggest it was high time we had a referendum. Not least because the vast majority of today's electorate never got to vote in the 1975 referendum. I would be quite content with a vote once every 40 years.

    I do note that of course Heath never dared have a referendum in 1972 prior to us joining as he knew he would have lost.
  • Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 64,103
    foxinsoxuk said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    not_on_fire said:

    Big_G_NorthWales said:

    williamglenn said:

    Mortimer said:

    Gardenwalker said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    I note this now remains the sole argument advanced for Brexit.

    Apparently, having placed the muzzle to our temple, we must pull the trigger, "or there'll be blood on the streets".

    What happens if we've changed our minds?

    Who decides that it is a possibility?
    It starts with people directly involved in the process changing their minds. Do they have enough strength of conviction to get through two years with most of the country against them and with the rest of the world looking on in bemusement?
    I believe a key moment will be when the EU demand an exit fee. All polls have shown resistance to a fee and outright rejection of 100 billion suggested by some on the EU side.

    UK opinion could swing very much against the EU if they overplay their hand
    Or maybe it will swing against the Brexiteers who said we could exit cost-free
    I do not see the UK voter paying a substantial exit fee, indeed can anyone imagine any politician endorsing a large exit fee. The vast majority will say no
    I agree. It is why the talks will halt and hard Brexit happen.

    Hard Brexit is the default option and just 20 short months away. A modicum of preparation would be wise.
    You may be right but not sure - again this is who knows ?
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    Benpointer said:

    HYUFD said:

    RobD said:

    surbiton said:

    If this government persists with this line, it will break up. Many Tory MPs will not go along with this. Another referendum will be called by Parliament [ as it is it's sovereign right ] and that will settle matters.

    Didn't Labour's manifesto also say they would leave the single market/customs union?
    Certainly, nothing Davis and Hammond have said contradicts what Corbyn and Starmer have said either. Both Labour and the Tories are committed to leaving the single market and the customs union to control free movement, a transition period does not stop that eventuality. Of the main parties only the LDs maintain the pretence of keeping membership of the single market
    Labour's manifesto said: "We will scrap the Conservatives’ Brexit White Paper and replace it with fresh negotiating priorities that have a strong emphasis on retaining the benefits of the Single Market and the Customs Union – which are essential for maintaining industries, jobs and businesses in Britain. "

    Nothing about leaving the single market/customs union unless I have missed it.
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4okLzPWPAE

    The manifesto mentioned making "best-in-class trade deals", which is difficult when in the Customs Union.
  • EssexitEssexit Posts: 1,963
    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    Richard_Tyndall said:

    surbiton said:

    currystar said:

    The country voted for brexit so it has to be brexit. I voted remain but I believe in democracy

    The country can also vote not to have Brexit. Parliament is sovereign. So the Brexiters told us. Parliament can call for another referendum, this time there will be real information.

    That will be democracy in action.
    You have made it patently clear you neither understand nor respect democracy. It is no wonder you are such a Euroloon. You share their contempt for the democratic process.

    Parliament is sovereign. It can pass an Act to hold a referendum on any subject it deems proper by a majority voting for it.

    That is democracy.
    So a vote every two years it is then.


    Whenever, Parliament wants one actually. By your argument, there should not have been a referendum in 2016 since we already had one in 1975.
    Since what we entered in 1973 bears no comparison to what we are leaving I would suggest it was high time we had a referendum. Not least because the vast majority of today's electorate never got to vote in the 1975 referendum. I would be quite content with a vote once every 40 years.

    I do note that of course Heath never dared have a referendum in 1972 prior to us joining as he knew he would have lost.
    Of course, in 2057 there won't necessarily be an EU to rejoin. I can live with that.
  • BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 34,849
    Completely O/T but can anyone give any advice as to why I can logon to PB to comment from my macbook no problem but if I try to logon from my imac or iphone, I put in my username and password, press enter, the screen refreshes with no error but I am not logged on?

    Totally baffled. Just concerned you guys are all missing out on my wise and witty contributions whenever I am not on my macbook :smiley:
This discussion has been closed.