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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : June 2017 (post General Election)

SystemSystem Posts: 11,700
edited June 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Local By-Election Review : June 2017 (post General Election)

Dawdon on Durham (Lab defence) Result: Labour 693 (52% +6% on May 2017), Independent 633 (48%, no candidate in May 2017) Labour HOLD with a majority of 60 (4%)

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    ScarfNZScarfNZ Posts: 29
    Surely not first!
  • Options
    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    "Bumblefridge," said the praying mantis.
  • Options
    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    (FPT)

    The statistics in the article seem to be wrong.

    1 Conservative (Eric Forth)
    1 Lib Dem (Patsy Calton)
    1 Independent (Peter Law)

    Labour:
    1. Ipswich (Jamie Cann)
    2. Ogmore (Raymond Powell)
    3. Brent East (Paul Daisley)
    4. Leicester South (Jim Marshall)
    5. Livingston (Robin Cook)
    6. Dunfermline & West Fife (Rachel Squire)
    7. Ealing Southall (Piara Khabra)
    8. Crewe & Nantwich (Gwyneth Dunwoody)
    9. Glenrothes (John MacDougall)
    10. Inverclyde (David Cairns)
    11. Feltham & Heston (Alan Keen)
    [ 12. Bradford West (Marsha Singh) ]
    13. Croydon North (Malcolm Wicks)
    14. Middlesbrough (Stuart Bell)
    15. Wythenshawe & Sale East (Paul Goggins)
    16. Heywood & Middleton (Jim Dobbin)
    17. Oldham West & Royton (Michael Meacher)
    18. Sheffield Brightside & Hillsborough (Harry Harpham)
    [ 19. Batley & Spen (Jo Cox) ]

    Even if you disregard Jo Cox *and* Marsha Singh, it's 17 not 15.
    And who is the second "Other"?
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,408
    edited June 2017
    Third like Vince
  • Options
    JohnLoonyJohnLoony Posts: 1,790
    IanB2 said:

    Third like Vince

    Recount!
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited June 2017
    https://www.ft.com/content/8cddfeea-5c02-11e7-b553-e2df1b0c3220

    Aaron Banks's finances ^

    C&P into google - and click the green "cache" link to get around the paywall.

    ---

    The thing I don't get is - why "loan" money to a political campaign at all?

    Is it a tax thing? Can it be written off as a loss and offset, or something?

    I'm not an accountant. I don't understand why we allow it, or why it's a mechanism that donors use.
  • Options
    woody662woody662 Posts: 255
    Pong said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/8cddfeea-5c02-11e7-b553-e2df1b0c3220

    Aaron Banks's finances ^

    C&P into google - and click the green "cache" link to get around the paywall.

    ---

    The thing I don't get is - why "loan" money to a political campaign at all?

    Is it a tax thing? Can it be written off as a loss and offset, or something?

    I'm not an accountant. I don't understand why we allow it, or why it's a mechanism that donors use.

    Gives you leverage against the Party so they do what you want.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
    Pong said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/8cddfeea-5c02-11e7-b553-e2df1b0c3220

    Aaron Banks's finances ^

    C&P into google - and click the green "cache" link to get around the paywall.

    ---

    The thing I don't get is - why "loan" money to a political campaign at all?

    Is it a tax thing? Can it be written off as a loss and offset, or something?

    I'm not an accountant. I don't understand why we allow it, or why it's a mechanism that donors use.

    No it isn't a tax thing.

    Donating/loaning money to a political party makes no difference to an individual or a company's tax liability.
  • Options
    Isn't it to get round donation rules? Loans for lordship's etc
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
    edited June 2017

    Isn't it to get round donation rules? Loans for lordship's etc

    Nope. All loans/contributions in kind have to be declared.
  • Options

    Isn't it to get round donation rules? Loans for lordship's etc

    Nope. All loans/contributions have to be declared.
    Why was Blair so keen on them?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,308
    Ian Lavary claims Labour is too broad a church! If that means non-Corbynites are unwelcome Labour will be consigned to opposition in perpetuity!

    What a w*****!
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563

    Isn't it to get round donation rules? Loans for lordship's etc

    Nope. All loans/contributions have to be declared.
    Why was Blair so keen on them?
    Rules changed after that.
  • Options

    Ian Lavary claims Labour is too broad a church! If that means non-Corbynites are unwelcome Labour will be consigned to opposition in perpetuity!

    What a w*****!

    Non Corbynistas need to go to re-education camps to learn the true path to greatness
  • Options
    FregglesFreggles Posts: 3,486
    The Dawdon second place was from the Seaham Community Party, not an independent! I think you have updated this on your Twitter though Harry.
  • Options

    Isn't it to get round donation rules? Loans for lordship's etc

    Nope. All loans/contributions have to be declared.
    Why was Blair so keen on them?
    Rules changed after that.
    I take your point
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060
    Pong said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/8cddfeea-5c02-11e7-b553-e2df1b0c3220

    Aaron Banks's finances ^

    C&P into google - and click the green "cache" link to get around the paywall.

    ---

    The thing I don't get is - why "loan" money to a political campaign at all?

    Is it a tax thing? Can it be written off as a loss and offset, or something?

    I'm not an accountant. I don't understand why we allow it, or why it's a mechanism that donors use.

    The thing that is craziest about those accounts is that of his business's £33m of sales, around £30m is from related parties. As an ex-stock analyst, that is a massive red flag.
  • Options
    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    Pong said:

    https://www.ft.com/content/8cddfeea-5c02-11e7-b553-e2df1b0c3220

    Aaron Banks's finances ^

    C&P into google - and click the green "cache" link to get around the paywall.

    ---

    The thing I don't get is - why "loan" money to a political campaign at all?

    Is it a tax thing? Can it be written off as a loss and offset, or something?

    I'm not an accountant. I don't understand why we allow it, or why it's a mechanism that donors use.

    Because you are buying leverage, and if you make an outright gift you lose the ability to threaten to call in the loan?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927
    calum said:
    IMHO, the Country should come first.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060
    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    IMHO, the Country should come first.
    Yes, but which country?
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    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,322
    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
  • Options
    malcolmgmalcolmg Posts: 42,062
    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    IMHO, the Country should come first.
    Yes, it will go down well promoting a bunch of overpaid rich tossers over the public.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    IMHO, the Country should come first.
    In the opinion of some the Country only exists for somewhere the City can make money from.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,322

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Excellent news if true. In fairness to Theresa, it sounds as if she's learnt from her mistakes - she tried appeasing the Kippers and the Tory hard Right and look at the unspeakable mess it landed her in. With luck, now that Corbyn has joined Farage and Leadsom to form the three horsemen of hard Brexit that should focus minds.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128
    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Excellent news if true. In fairness to Theresa, it sounds as if she's learnt from her mistakes - she tried appeasing the Kippers and the Tory hard Right and look at the unspeakable mess it landed her in. With luck, now that Corbyn has joined Farage and Leadsom to form the three horsemen of hard Brexit that should focus minds.
    Another clue must be in the appointment of Gavin Barnwell and Damien Green to Theresa's close advisors and both are remainers
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774

    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.

    When did we stop hunting deer?
  • Options
    ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,819
    It would be a funny turn of events if after all this the tories champion a soft brexit, while labour goes off the brexit deep end.
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,060
    Personal view: I think the biggest problem that the Department for Exiting the EU has is that Dr Fox has failed spectacularly.

    We should have published our planned tariff schedule. We should have published Heads of Terms with a dozen countries (especially those that already have trade relationships with the EU). We should have announced our intention to join EFTA (not EEA, just EFTA). Dr Fox should have stood by the side of the Canadian ambassador and announced that we will be joining the EFTA-Canada FTA.

    All these things increase our leverage with the EU, and insulate us somewhat against the risk of cliff edge Brexit.

    Instead Dr Fox has failed to publish a tariff schedule, and has failed to make any progress ensuring exiting EU relationships are transferred to us, and has made next to no progress with other countries. (The possible exception being the US, but I fear that a US-UK deal will rapidly get bogged down in minutiae.)

    We still have 21 months left to get things together. But we've had 12 months, and even the simplest things haven't been done yet. Business will start getting very nervous if we drift into 2018 and our non-EU trade arrangements appear to have been completely forgotten about.
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    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    May's big achievement this year was to bollox her election.
    Hammond's big achievement this year was to bollox his Budget.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358
    edited June 2017

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    rcs1000 said:

    We should have published our planned tariff schedule. We should have published Heads of Terms with a dozen countries (especially those that already have trade relationships with the EU). We should have announced our intention to join EFTA (not EEA, just EFTA). Dr Fox should have stood by the side of the Canadian ambassador and announced that we will be joining the EFTA-Canada FTA.

    All these things increase our leverage with the EU, and insulate us somewhat against the risk of cliff edge Brexit.

    Do you think the EU is a passive actor in terms of our potential relationship with third countries, especially those that already have treaty commitments with the EU?
  • Options
    Stark_DawningStark_Dawning Posts: 9,322
    rcs1000 said:

    Personal view: I think the biggest problem that the Department for Exiting the EU has is that Dr Fox has failed spectacularly.

    We should have published our planned tariff schedule. We should have published Heads of Terms with a dozen countries (especially those that already have trade relationships with the EU). We should have announced our intention to join EFTA (not EEA, just EFTA). Dr Fox should have stood by the side of the Canadian ambassador and announced that we will be joining the EFTA-Canada FTA.

    All these things increase our leverage with the EU, and insulate us somewhat against the risk of cliff edge Brexit.

    Instead Dr Fox has failed to publish a tariff schedule, and has failed to make any progress ensuring exiting EU relationships are transferred to us, and has made next to no progress with other countries. (The possible exception being the US, but I fear that a US-UK deal will rapidly get bogged down in minutiae.)

    We still have 21 months left to get things together. But we've had 12 months, and even the simplest things haven't been done yet. Business will start getting very nervous if we drift into 2018 and our non-EU trade arrangements appear to have been completely forgotten about.

    Agree with you there. Dr fox is either being photographed beaming with his art collection or still fighting last years battles over the referendum result.

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/06/24/liam-fox-interview-country-made-views-clear-part-dont-people/

    Sharpen up Liam. You've got work to do!
  • Options
    Sean_FSean_F Posts: 35,927

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
  • Options
    JohnLoony said:

    (FPT) The statistics in the article seem to be wrong.

    The figures I have since Election 1997 are 65 by-elections (Con 15, Lab 45, Lib Dem 3, Plaid 1, Ind 1)
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    edited June 2017
    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    Of course it's possible, and all those EU citizens who were motivated to apply for UK passports as a result of the Brexit vote will help create a blocking majority in any future referendum. It's over for (hard) Brexit.
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128

    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.

    When did we stop hunting deer?
    Isn't it rather frowned upon these days ?

    I must admit to having somewhat of a downer about deer - I once ran into one.

    Still I should be thankful I didn't run into a brown bear, that might have had worse consequences.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    Of course it's possible, and all those EU citizens who were motivated to apply for UK passports as a result of the Brexit vote will help create a blocking majority in any future referendum. It's over for Brexit.
    You are confident that the UK will never leave? It's a view...
  • Options
    nielhnielh Posts: 1,307

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    Of course it's possible, and all those EU citizens who were motivated to apply for UK passports as a result of the Brexit vote will help create a blocking majority in any future referendum. It's over for Brexit.
    Think that conclusion is somewhat premature.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    Of course it's possible, and all those EU citizens who were motivated to apply for UK passports as a result of the Brexit vote will help create a blocking majority in any future referendum. It's over for (hard) Brexit.
    For once I agree with you William though it will take sensible compromises by both sides
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    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382
    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774

    It would be a funny turn of events if after all this the tories champion a soft brexit, while labour goes off the brexit deep end.

    It would indeed .

    So... New Labour has turned back into Old Labour and the Tories* are effectively turning into old New Labour.

    *Since they have recently discovered that none of: austerity, untrammelled free-markets, public sector pay caps, hard brexit, grammar schools, fox-hunting, demetia tax etc. etc. are great for electoral prospects (let alone the country). Expect to see tuition fees abolished in the Autumn budget :smiley:
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563

    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.

    When did we stop hunting deer?
    Isn't it rather frowned upon these days ?

    I must admit to having somewhat of a downer about deer - I once ran into one.

    Still I should be thankful I didn't run into a brown bear, that might have had worse consequences.
    David Cameron loves to 'stalk' deer.

    I believe he named some of the deer he shot recently Michael and Boris after Messrs Gove and Johnson.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358
    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563

    It would be a funny turn of events if after all this the tories champion a soft brexit, while labour goes off the brexit deep end.

    One of my bolder predictions is that in 2022* the Tory manifesto will include a pledge to take us back into the single market and customs union, replete with CJEU oversight.

    *More likely in 2027.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989
    edited June 2017
    Fancy seeing you on here at this hour, TSE... :p
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358

    It would be a funny turn of events if after all this the tories champion a soft brexit, while labour goes off the brexit deep end.

    It would indeed .

    So... New Labour has turned back into Old Labour and the Tories* are effectively turning into old New Labour.

    *Since they have recently discovered that none of: austerity, untrammelled free-markets, public sector pay caps, hard brexit, grammar schools, fox-hunting, demetia tax etc. etc. are great for electoral prospects (let alone the country). Expect to see tuition fees abolished in the Autumn budget :smiley:
    Not this Autumn
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128

    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.

    When did we stop hunting deer?
    Isn't it rather frowned upon these days ?

    I must admit to having somewhat of a downer about deer - I once ran into one.

    Still I should be thankful I didn't run into a brown bear, that might have had worse consequences.
    David Cameron loves to 'stalk' deer.

    I believe he named some of the deer he shot recently Michael and Boris after Messrs Gove and Johnson.
    Dear, dear

    :wink:
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989

    It would be a funny turn of events if after all this the tories champion a soft brexit, while labour goes off the brexit deep end.

    One of my bolder predictions is that in 2022* the Tory manifesto will include a pledge to take us back into the single market and customs union, replete with CJEU oversight.

    *More likely in 2027.
    Hm. Would this be on par with the Abbott bet? :D
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    Of course it's possible, and all those EU citizens who were motivated to apply for UK passports as a result of the Brexit vote will help create a blocking majority in any future referendum. It's over for Brexit.
    You are confident that the UK will never leave? It's a view...
    I'm confident that the path of least resistance to the compromise that most resembles what the UK actually wants is to remain on current terms. Any deviation from that path will ultimately just lead to us remaining on different terms such as adopting the Euro.

    Brexit is a poisoned chalice that will destroy any government it touches.
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
    edited June 2017
    RobD said:

    Fancy seeing you on here at this hour, TSE... :p

    I remembered I have to schedule David's piece overnight.

    I really want to be asleep right now.
  • Options
    NorthofStokeNorthofStoke Posts: 1,758

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    If this were to take off expect a good face saving agreement with the EU. We might even be the first of a new category of member!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774
    edited June 2017

    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.

    When did we stop hunting deer?
    Isn't it rather frowned upon these days ?

    I must admit to having somewhat of a downer about deer - I once ran into one.

    Still I should be thankful I didn't run into a brown bear, that might have had worse consequences.
    When we were in Canada we were told never to hit a moose* - apparently you take their legs out and the body topples onto your car and crushes you. Fortunately we never found out if this was just a tourist wind-up.

    *Strange advice though - as if you'd sit in your car thinking, "shall I hit it or not?" Reminds me of the "Beware of falling rocks" signs in Cheddar Gorge - what are you going to do about it if one decides to fall?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    Of course it's possible, and all those EU citizens who were motivated to apply for UK passports as a result of the Brexit vote will help create a blocking majority in any future referendum. It's over for Brexit.
    You are confident that the UK will never leave? It's a view...
    I'm confident that the path of least resistance to the compromise that most resembles what the UK actually wants is to remain on current terms. Any deviation from that path will ultimately just lead to us remaining on different terms such as adopting the Euro.

    Brexit is a poisoned chalice that will destroy any government it touches.
    So the choice is either as we were, or joining the euro?
  • Options
    TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 114,563
    RobD said:

    It would be a funny turn of events if after all this the tories champion a soft brexit, while labour goes off the brexit deep end.

    One of my bolder predictions is that in 2022* the Tory manifesto will include a pledge to take us back into the single market and customs union, replete with CJEU oversight.

    *More likely in 2027.
    Hm. Would this be on par with the Abbott bet? :D
    Backed Abbott at odds as high as 120, she's now 50 on Betfair.

    #ExcellentTradingBetAhem.
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    Of course it's possible, and all those EU citizens who were motivated to apply for UK passports as a result of the Brexit vote will help create a blocking majority in any future referendum. It's over for Brexit.
    You are confident that the UK will never leave? It's a view...
    I'm confident that the path of least resistance to the compromise that most resembles what the UK actually wants is to remain on current terms. Any deviation from that path will ultimately just lead to us remaining on different terms such as adopting the Euro.

    Brexit is a poisoned chalice that will destroy any government it touches.
    So the choice is either as we were, or joining the euro?
    Or become an ungovernable basket case.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    Of course it's possible, and all those EU citizens who were motivated to apply for UK passports as a result of the Brexit vote will help create a blocking majority in any future referendum. It's over for Brexit.
    You are confident that the UK will never leave? It's a view...
    I'm confident that the path of least resistance to the compromise that most resembles what the UK actually wants is to remain on current terms. Any deviation from that path will ultimately just lead to us remaining on different terms such as adopting the Euro.

    Brexit is a poisoned chalice that will destroy any government it touches.
    So the choice is either as we were, or joining the euro?
    Or become an ungovernable basket case.
    That is where we go back to normal - I do not accept that at all
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    What do you mean close to the single market ?
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453

    When we were in Canada we were told never to hit a moose* - apparently you take their legs out and the body topples onto your car and crushes you. Fortunately we never found out if this was just a tourist wind-up.

    It's serious. My colleague hit a large deer and wrote off his car
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    What do you mean close to the single market ?
    EEA or similar
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    What do you mean close to the single market ?
    We will definitely be close to the single market as it's just over the border in NI :smile:
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    Respect to you. Being selfish and running away in the face of a vague threat is an honourable position. Fantastic.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,061

    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.

    h
    When did we stop hunting deer?
    Isn't it rather frowned upon these days ?

    I must admit to having somewhat of a downer about deer - I once ran into one.

    Still I should be thankful I didn't run into a brown bear, that might have had worse consequences.
    When we were in Canada we were told never to hit a moose* - apparently you take their legs out and the body topples onto your car and crushes you. Fortunately we never found out if this was just a tourist wind-up.

    *Strange advice though - as if you'd sit in your car thinking, "shall I hit it or not?" Reminds me of the "Beware of falling rocks" signs in Cheddar Gorge - what are you going to do about it if one decides to fall?
    There's the famous Moose Test for cars:
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moose_test

    I think the falling rocks sign is more to tell you to keep away, or not to linger, in those areas. My favourites are 'beware of rogue waves' signs at seemingly remote areas of the coast (I think there's one near Cairnryan). The waves are caused by passing large ships, often ferries, and from what I've read the signs are at places where the coast's shape magnifies the incoming wake.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774
    GeoffM said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    Respect to you. Being selfish and running away in the face of a vague threat is an honourable position. Fantastic.
    It's called common sense.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358
    GeoffM said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    Respect to you. Being selfish and running away in the face of a vague threat is an honourable position. Fantastic.
    The loss of Airbus in North Wales would not be worth any risk. You do know that every airbus flying throughout the World today has had it's wings made here in Wales
  • Options
    another_richardanother_richard Posts: 25,128

    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.

    When did we stop hunting deer?
    Isn't it rather frowned upon these days ?

    I must admit to having somewhat of a downer about deer - I once ran into one.

    Still I should be thankful I didn't run into a brown bear, that might have had worse consequences.
    When we were in Canada we were told never to hit a moose* - apparently you take their legs out and the body topples onto your car and crushes you. Fortunately we never found out if this was just a tourist wind-up.

    *Strange advice though - as if you'd sit in your car thinking, "shall I hit it or not?" Reminds me of the "Beware of falling rocks" signs in Cheddar Gorge - what are you going to do about it if one decides to fall?
    When I ran into a deer I didn't have a car around me - I literally ran into a deer.

    I was jogging through some woods, went round a corner and there it was, oblivious to the world and in particular to all the noise I had been making as I approached.
  • Options
    YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    What do you mean close to the single market ?
    EEA or similar
    Agreed would be my choice to under the circumstances.
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774

    So stopping hunting deer leads to an increase in deer population.

    "Wolves and brown bears could return to British countryside to 'naturally cut deer population' "

    http://www.telegraph.co.uk/science/2017/06/30/wolves-brown-bears-could-return-british-countryside-naturally/

    What predators do we then introduce when the population of wolves and brown bears need to be cut ?

    Sabre-tooth tigers ? Velociraptors ?

    Maybe dragons and the North can be turned into the North.

    When did we stop hunting deer?
    Isn't it rather frowned upon these days ?

    I must admit to having somewhat of a downer about deer - I once ran into one.

    Still I should be thankful I didn't run into a brown bear, that might have had worse consequences.
    When we were in Canada we were told never to hit a moose* - apparently you take their legs out and the body topples onto your car and crushes you. Fortunately we never found out if this was just a tourist wind-up.

    *Strange advice though - as if you'd sit in your car thinking, "shall I hit it or not?" Reminds me of the "Beware of falling rocks" signs in Cheddar Gorge - what are you going to do about it if one decides to fall?
    When I ran into a deer I didn't have a car around me - I literally ran into a deer.

    I was jogging through some woods, went round a corner and there it was, oblivious to the world and in particular to all the noise I had been making as I approached.
    Good job it wasn't a moose!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774
    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    What do you mean close to the single market ?
    EEA or similar
    Agreed would be my choice to under the circumstances.
    +1 Seems like a ready-made solution.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited June 2017

    GeoffM said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    Respect to you. Being selfish and running away in the face of a vague threat is an honourable position. Fantastic.
    The loss of Airbus in North Wales would not be worth any risk. You do know that every airbus flying throughout the World today has had it's wings made here in Wales
    If it bothered you that much then you should have done something about 13 months ago.

  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130

    GeoffM said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    Respect to you. Being selfish and running away in the face of a vague threat is an honourable position. Fantastic.
    The loss of Airbus in North Wales would not be worth any risk. You do know that every airbus flying throughout the World today has had it's wings made here in Wales
    If it bothered you that much then you should have thought of done something about 13 months ago.

    Big G voted Remain! :)
  • Options
    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    What do you mean close to the single market ?
    EEA or similar
    Agreed would be my choice to under the circumstances.
    +1 Seems like a ready-made solution.
    It's only a "solution" for you because you don't comprehend the initial problem.

    It's impossible for you to come to any useful conclusion about a suitable destination if you don't understand (or, alternatively, don't believe in) the reason for the journey in the first place.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    edited June 2017

    GeoffM said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    Respect to you. Being selfish and running away in the face of a vague threat is an honourable position. Fantastic.
    The loss of Airbus in North Wales would not be worth any risk. You do know that every airbus flying throughout the World today has had it's wings made here in Wales
    If it bothered you that much then you should have thought of done something about 13 months ago.

    Big G voted Remain! :)
    Should have campaigned harder then. It was always clear that Brexit was going to imperil Airbus UK.

    https://www.theguardian.com/business/2016/apr/04/airbus-executives-brexit-warning-letter-uk-eu
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894
    edited June 2017
    We are now the worse performing economy in the G7 and it's probably going to deteriorate further.

    Well there's a surprise
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774
    edited June 2017
    GeoffM said:

    It's only a "solution" for you because you don't comprehend the initial problem.

    It's impossible for you to come to any useful conclusion about a suitable destination if you don't understand (or, alternatively, don't believe in) the reason for the journey in the first place.

    I've no argument with that - I didn't, and don't, see the EU as a problem. It doesn't mean I am not allowed to have a view on where we end up though!
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Roger said:

    We are now the worse performing economy in the G7 and it's probably going to deteriorate further.

    Well there's a surprise

    If only someone had warned us!
  • Options
    BenpointerBenpointer Posts: 31,774
    Roger said:

    We are now the worse performing economy in the G7 and it's probably going to deteriorate further.

    Well there's a surprise

    Why weren't we warned this might happen? Oh...
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989

    Roger said:

    We are now the worse performing economy in the G7 and it's probably going to deteriorate further.

    Well there's a surprise

    If only someone had warned us!
    They slightly over-egged it.
  • Options
    Big_G_NorthWalesBig_G_NorthWales Posts: 60,358

    GeoffM said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    Respect to you. Being selfish and running away in the face of a vague threat is an honourable position. Fantastic.
    The loss of Airbus in North Wales would not be worth any risk. You do know that every airbus flying throughout the World today has had it's wings made here in Wales
    If it bothered you that much then you should have done something about 13 months ago.

    I voted remain reluctantly
  • Options
    RogerRoger Posts: 18,894
    edited June 2017

    Roger said:

    We are now the worse performing economy in the G7 and it's probably going to deteriorate further.

    Well there's a surprise

    If only someone had warned us!
    Sorry it seems I was being kind. It's actually the worst performing advanced economy in the world.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-economy-world-worst-performing-advanced-countries-state-g7-european-union-a7817046.html
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    RobD said:

    Roger said:

    We are now the worse performing economy in the G7 and it's probably going to deteriorate further.

    Well there's a surprise

    If only someone had warned us!
    They slightly over-egged it.
    The BBC are obviously taking the call from Andrea Leadsom to be more patriotic very seriously.

    https://twitter.com/JungleDaily/status/880551067083194368
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    We are now the worse performing economy in the G7 and it's probably going to deteriorate further.

    Well there's a surprise

    If only someone had warned us!
    Sorry it seems I was being kind. It's actually the worst performing advanced economy in the world.

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/uk-economy-world-worst-performing-advanced-countries-state-g7-european-union-a7817046.html
    I see that both Greece and Italy grew twice as fast as us in Q1.

    Will we be in recession by Q3?
  • Options
    AndrewAndrew Posts: 2,900
    edited June 2017
    Roger said:

    We are now the worse performing economy in the G7 and it's probably going to deteriorate further.

    Only if you use pointless quarterly growth figures, which bounce around all over the place. For example, our last 3 years: 0.9%, 0.8%, 0.8%, 0.3%, 0.5%, 0.3%, 0.7%, 0.2%, 0.6%, 0.5%, 0.7%, 0.2%.

    Year on year growth we're 11th of 20 in the G20, ahead of Germany and way ahead of Italy/France and so on. Even that's a bit of an unhelpful comparison, because developing countries like China/India/Turkey/Indonesia/Mexio are always going to have higher growth peaks.
  • Options
    tysontyson Posts: 6,050
    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.

    I think remaining in the single market is not only possible but more than likely....we probably have 2 years plus of actual shit to go through until we return to the bleeding obvious, namely that our interests are best served in Europe.

    Even intransigent eggheads like your good self...the penny may well have dropped by then....finally....
  • Options
    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    tyson said:

    Sean_F said:

    calum said:
    Interesting. From what I'm hearing the fabulous Phil is rallying business and others of good sense and sound judgement against Corbyn, Farage, Leadsom and the rest of the dark forces of hard Brexit. Good man!
    From something that was said a few days ago it seems Theresa May is supporting Hammond on this
    Just a thought - what if TM and Phil Hammond come down in favour of the single market and outflank Corbyn, Farage and Leadsom by using cross party support
    I'd back that. Needs to reach the right point in the negotiations then might be a masterstroke. Both main parties split though. Could be a good thing.
    The country has to come first
    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.

    I think remaining in the single market is not only possible but more than likely....we probably have 2 years plus of actual shit to go through until we return to the bleeding obvious, namely that our interests are best served in Europe.

    Even intransigent eggheads like your good self...the penny may well have dropped by then....finally....
    Corbyn supports pulling out of the single market.

    Only headbangers like you can't see we are leaving the E.U and we will control our borders.
  • Options
    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038

    GeoffM said:

    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:



    The country has to come first

    I agree, certain politicians need to think of their place in history. A liberalish sensible fudge of a Brexit abandoning strong reduction in European immigration and stopping bloody Corbyn are both pretty vital.
    Corbyn must have hurt his remain followers and if you add conservative, lib dem, SNP, green MP's to the 50 - 80 labour pro remain you have a good majority to stay in or close to the single market. Additionally if Theresa can find a way through she will have redeemed herself in spades
    Remaining in the Single Market is not possible.
    I think you will need to explain this to BigG he is all-over the place .
    No I am not. Since Airbus have threatened to leave Wales I have moved my opinion that jobs come first. I no longer support a hard Brexit that threatens 40,000 Welsh jobs including my son in laws. We have to stay in or close to the single market
    Respect to you. Being selfish and running away in the face of a vague threat is an honourable position. Fantastic.
    The loss of Airbus in North Wales would not be worth any risk. You do know that every airbus flying throughout the World today has had it's wings made here in Wales
    If it bothered you that much then you should have done something about 13 months ago.

    I voted remain reluctantly
    "City must come first in Brexit"... the Telegraph and Times have turned into the Daily Express of Brexit. The Express has 6 or 8 cures (or causes) of cancer that reappear on the front page in a regular monthly cycle. Now our more august papers change their mind each month about what the priority in Brexit should be.

    The trouble with Project Fear is that it was Project Realism. Okay, there are a few things that won't be affected very much by Brexit, but most of the warnings were sensible. For many people the medium-term effects of Brexit will be severe, and the only way the government is going to get the country (and itself) through the mess is by seeking out the Magic Money Tree orchard and supplying every region and sector with as much fruit as it wants.
  • Options
    DadgeDadge Posts: 2,038
    For some reason I'm reminded of this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2AvU2cfXRk
  • Options
    williamglennwilliamglenn Posts: 48,130
    Unionism 2017: an Irish politician, Phil Hogan, concludes a deal on behalf of an entire continent thanks to membership of the EU, while a Scottish politician, Liam Fox, sits in London waiting for an invitation.

    https://twitter.com/trade_eu/status/880778219997319168
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,989

    Unionism 2017: an Irish politician, Phil Hogan, concludes a deal on behalf of an entire continent thanks to membership of the EU, while a Scottish politician, Liam Fox, sits in London waiting for an invitation.

    twitter.com/trade_eu/status/880778219997319168

    Weren't you yesterday wondering why he was even bothering starting talks with other countries?
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,360
    No Survation?
This discussion has been closed.