‘There’s speculation he swallowed the drugs. One of the bags split which then caused a heart attack and a severe overdose of crack cocaine and heroin.’
As the investigation continues, the cause of death is yet to be established.
Indeed. Most senior politicians are unpleasant people; Trump just doesn't bother to hide it by projecting a false personality toward voters. This feels a lot worse; whether it actually is, time will tell.
That's a view that surprised me. I know all the current and recent party leaders well enough to have an opinion on what they're like - none of them seem to me actually unpleasant, unless you count Galloway. For example, May is criticised for being remote, but I've not heard it said that she's personally nasty, and the nephew of a friend works for her and says she's a great boss. And even Corbyn's strongest opponents don't usually say he's unpleasant.
My sense would be most aren't unpleasant - but a fair few are.
I think Gordon Brown certainly had a reputation of being aggressive/bullying/shouting a lot. From people who have worked with them I've heard Andrew Mitchell was a nightmare and also Keith Vaz.
Theresa May tolerated those SpADs who everyone seems to have agreed were horrible, something Gordon Brown was guilty of as well.
‘There’s speculation he swallowed the drugs. One of the bags split which then caused a heart attack and a severe overdose of crack cocaine and heroin.’
As the investigation continues, the cause of death is yet to be established.
"Maria said, "I wish people could have gone to the hospital and seen him. The first thing you noticed was his neck. It was triple the normal size. He had to have something to hold his head straight because his neck wasn't strong enough.
"They say the police didn't injure him. So how did that happen? We want justice." "
I'm sure all those on the left will now be calling Merkel an anti-homophobic bigot in the same way they do with the DUP....
Your prejudices are showing. Why not ask what conservative gays and civil libertarians think of Chancellor Merkel? In any case it is all yesterday's news given her overnight conversion to the cause of German gay marriage.
Edit: sorry if your anti-homophobic joke went over my head.
I'm not sure. Just amusing that Merkel votes against gay marriage (although allowing the vote) but I expect she won't be viewed in the same way as other people which have.
Perhaps but surely the Chancellor is on the right of German politics? I'm not seeing a left-right issue here.
What I am finding delicious today is people who voted for Corbyn to protest against Brexit finding he was and is FOR Brexit.
Compare and contrast Corbyn in the Brexit Referendum with Corbyn in the 2017 GE. Spot the difference in campaigning? Corbyn showed with the difference that he never wanted to be in the EU.
Remainers suddenly discovering this gives me some hope that Corbyn won't win power in the future (although not much).
Socialist Worker - est. circulation: <10,000; Der Stürmer 1938 circulation c. 480,000; Daily 'Crush The Saboteurs' Mail circulation: 1,500,000;
Influence of DS - truly frightening at the time Influence of DM - questionable these days Influence of SW - diddly-squat (even with Mike's retweeting help!)
Compare and contrast Corbyn in the Brexit Referendum with Corbyn in the 2017 GE. Spot the difference in campaigning? Corbyn showed with the difference that he never wanted to be in the EU. snip
What I am finding delicious today is people who voted for Corbyn to protest against Brexit finding he was and is FOR Brexit.
Compare and contrast Corbyn in the Brexit Referendum with Corbyn in the 2017 GE. Spot the difference in campaigning? Corbyn showed with the difference that he never wanted to be in the EU.
Remainers suddenly discovering this gives me some hope that Corbyn won't win power in the future (although not much).
As per prev post: public services, public services and public services are the three main drivers for people turning to Labour imo. Brexit not in top five. And I speak as an ardent (but defeated) Remainer.
When Theresa called the GE we all (well me at least) thought it would be about Brexit but she made the mistake of having nothing to say on Brexit - and Jezza took advantage.
Not sure if the BBC report on the cladding adds much to the conversation. The cladding was changed from the original specified but for one with the same classification. Saved £250k. In all normal circumstances this would be regarded as good management. I'd like to see the results if the original panels were subjected to the same tests. If there's a significant difference in fire retardence then the classification needs to be challenged, not the original decision that was made in good faith.
We also already knew this, it was reported in the daily mail over a week ago.
Compare and contrast Corbyn in the Brexit Referendum with Corbyn in the 2017 GE. Spot the difference in campaigning? Corbyn showed with the difference that he never wanted to be in the EU. snip
An excellent point, which hadn't occurred to me.
A good point indeed. Also note that Corbyn had no personal investment in 2016 - the victory would have been Cameron's. In 2017 he had a huge personal investment.
I share your concern about Vince. The most rosy scenario is that Vince recognises that his role is to provide an apprenticeship and transitional period for his deputy, assuming she wants to step up in the first place. However, humility and selflessness do not appear to be Vince's most obvious characteristics. The centre faces the challenge of how to recapture its radicalism, after the damage of the coalition years. Liberals in particular used to be driven by a very strong desire to change the world - their image of splitting the difference between the two larger parties was always thrust upon them by the voters rather than part of the self-image. Coalition has dented this dramatically but, like Macron, the LDs need to try and become the radical centre once again, championing the interests of the young in particular. Radical centerism would be hugely less risky than radical left or right. Again, Vince would appear to be the last person to go in this direction. It already feels to me that we will be treading water waiting for Vince to move on.
Vince is a poor choice for leader. Still 20 days to the deadline to stand.
As someone who finds himself trapped politically between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives, I fail to see what Vince would bring to the table policywise that I'd like. But perhaps he'll surprise me, or perhaps I'm not the sort of voter he'll aim for.
Your worries are groundless, I think, Mr Jessop. Unlike the Conservative Party, Lib Dems do not wait for their leader to have a brilliant new idea while running through the cornfields. There is a structure and process for developing policy. It might be a good idea to wait and see what the Lib Dems discuss at their Conference in Bournemouth in September. It is not just the Lib Dem leader who matters.
Yep, the country is holding its breath for the LibDem conference discussion...
I too find these kind of remarks frankly hilarious. The LibDems are of no account at all. It is actually decadent to spend an instant thinking about them given what else is up in the world.
Bavaria in particular is still very socially conservative and she still needs the support of her CSU allies, while having allowed gay marriage to be legalised she has neutralised an SPD campaign issue (she did vote for gay adoption)
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
Indeed. Most senior politicians are unpleasant people; Trump just doesn't bother to hide it by projecting a false personality toward voters. This feels a lot worse; whether it actually is, time will tell.
That's a view that surprised me. I know all the current and recent party leaders well enough to have an opinion on what they're like - none of them seem to me actually unpleasant, unless you count Galloway. For example, May is criticised for being remote, but I've not heard it said that she's personally nasty, and the nephew of a friend works for her and says she's a great boss. And even Corbyn's strongest opponents don't usually say he's unpleasant.
My sense would be most aren't unpleasant - but a fair few are.
I think Gordon Brown certainly had a reputation of being aggressive/bullying/shouting a lot. From people who have worked with them I've heard Andrew Mitchell was a nightmare and also Keith Vaz.
Theresa May tolerated those SpADs who everyone seems to have agreed were horrible, something Gordon Brown was guilty of as well.
The last point is a good one - leaders tend to feel beleaguered (and often are indeed exactly that) and they cling to people who are personally loyal (Cameron/Osborne, Corbyn/McDnnell, May/SpaDs). Sometimes the loyalists then get cocky and nasty to anyone who doesn't share their personal loyalty. The exception that springs to mind is Blair/Brown - Brown was not a comfortable mate for Blair, but Blair felt he provided something that was needed and stuck to him despite numerous temptations to dump him - partly because he'd have been a dangerous enemy on the backbenches, but mainly because Blair is predominantly a rationalist, who coolly judges what he thinks is the best tactical option.
But you can make a case that the Labour government was poisoned by the Blair-Brown relationship and Blair would have been better advised to choose a loyal mate - Chancellor Mandelson? It's hard to think of anyone who is really a May loyalist, and that must be damned lonely.
I too find these kind of remarks frankly hilarious. The LibDems are of no account at all. It is actually decadent to spend an instant thinking about them given what else is up in the world.
Well quite. Let's have done with it and have a one party state and total group think.
Indeed. Most senior politicians are unpleasant people; Trump just doesn't bother to hide it by projecting a false personality toward voters. This feels a lot worse; whether it actually is, time will tell.
That's a view that surprised me. I know all the current and recent party leaders well enough to have an opinion on what they're like - none of them seem to me actually unpleasant, unless you count Galloway. For example, May is criticised for being remote, but I've not heard it said that she's personally nasty, and the nephew of a friend works for her and says she's a great boss. And even Corbyn's strongest opponents don't usually say he's unpleasant.
My sense would be most aren't unpleasant - but a fair few are.
I think Gordon Brown certainly had a reputation of being aggressive/bullying/shouting a lot. From people who have worked with them I've heard Andrew Mitchell was a nightmare and also Keith Vaz.
Theresa May tolerated those SpADs who everyone seems to have agreed were horrible, something Gordon Brown was guilty of as well.
It's hard to think of anyone who is really a May loyalist, and that must be damned lonely.
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
Indeed. Most senior politicians are unpleasant people; Trump just doesn't bother to hide it by projecting a false personality toward voters. This feels a lot worse; whether it actually is, time will tell.
That's a view that surprised me. I know all the current and recent party leaders well enough to have an opinion on what they're like - none of them seem to me actually unpleasant, unless you count Galloway. For example, May is criticised for being remote, but I've not heard it said that she's personally nasty, and the nephew of a friend works for her and says she's a great boss. And even Corbyn's strongest opponents don't usually say he's unpleasant.
My sense would be most aren't unpleasant - but a fair few are.
I think Gordon Brown certainly had a reputation of being aggressive/bullying/shouting a lot. From people who have worked with them I've heard Andrew Mitchell was a nightmare and also Keith Vaz.
Theresa May tolerated those SpADs who everyone seems to have agreed were horrible, something Gordon Brown was guilty of as well.
The last point is a good one - leaders tend to feel beleaguered (and often are indeed exactly that) and they cling to people who are personally loyal (Cameron/Osborne, Corbyn/McDnnell, May/SpaDs). Sometimes the loyalists then get cocky and nasty to anyone who doesn't share their personal loyalty. The exception that springs to mind is Blair/Brown - Brown was not a comfortable mate for Blair, but Blair felt he provided something that was needed and stuck to him despite numerous temptations to dump him - partly because he'd have been a dangerous enemy on the backbenches, but mainly because Blair is predominantly a rationalist, who coolly judges what he thinks is the best tactical option.
But you can make a case that the Labour government was poisoned by the Blair-Brown relationship and Blair would have been better advised to choose a loyal mate - Chancellor Mandelson? It's hard to think of anyone who is really a May loyalist, and that must be damned lonely.
May loyalist? Damien Green. They go way back.
As for Blair/Brown. Rereading 'The Rivals' the other day it struck me how much Blair owed Brown from their early days when Blair first came into Parliament. Brown taught him everything and introduced him to the party and union systems.
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
OT. It is extraordinary that people-even the really stupid ones on here- couldn't see what was obvious; that as well as being a misogynist and a hopeless president he was also an odious human being.
I share your concern about Vince. The most rosy scenario is that Vince recognises that his role is to provide an apprenticeship and transitional period for his deputy, assuming she wants to step up in the first place. However, humility and selflessness do not appear to be Vince's most obvious characteristics. The centre faces the challenge of how to recapture its radicalism, after the damage of the coalition years. Liberals in particular used to be driven by a very strong desire to change the world - their image of splitting the difference between the two larger parties was always thrust upon them by the voters rather than part of the self-image. Coalition has dented this dramatically but, like Macron, the LDs need to try and become the radical centre once again, championing the interests of the young in particular. Radical centerism would be hugely less risky than radical left or right. Again, Vince would appear to be the last person to go in this direction. It already feels to me that we will be treading water waiting for Vince to move on.
Vince is a poor choice for leader. Still 20 days to the deadline to stand.
As someone who finds himself trapped politically between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives, I fail to see what Vince would bring to the table policywise that I'd like. But perhaps he'll surprise me, or perhaps I'm not the sort of voter he'll aim for.
Your worries are groundless, I think, Mr Jessop. Unlike the Conservative Party, Lib Dems do not wait for their leader to have a brilliant new idea while running through the cornfields. There is a structure and process for developing policy. It might be a good idea to wait and see what the Lib Dems discuss at their Conference in Bournemouth in September. It is not just the Lib Dem leader who matters.
Yep, the country is holding its breath for the LibDem conference discussion...
I too find these kind of remarks frankly hilarious. The LibDems are of no account at all. It is actually decadent to spend an instant thinking about them given what else is up in the world.
Where are we on the LibDem leadership? Do we really need to wait until the middle of July to find out if Sir Vince is on for a coronation?
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
I share your concern about Vince. The most rosy scenario is that Vince recognises that his role is to provide an apprenticeship and transitional period for his deputy, assuming she wants to step up in the first place. However, humility and selflessness do not appear to be Vince's most obvious characteristics. The centre faces the challenge of how to recapture its radicalism, after the damage of the coalition years. Liberals in particular used to be driven by a very strong desire to change the world - their image of splitting the difference between the two larger parties was always thrust upon them by the voters rather than part of the self-image. Coalition has dented this dramatically but, like Macron, the LDs need to try and become the radical centre once again, championing the interests of the young in particular. Radical centerism would be hugely less risky than radical left or right. Again, Vince would appear to be the last person to go in this direction. It already feels to me that we will be treading water waiting for Vince to move on.
Vince is a poor choice for leader. Still 20 days to the deadline to stand.
As someone who finds himself trapped politically between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives, I fail to see what Vince would bring to the table policywise that I'd like. But perhaps he'll surprise me, or perhaps I'm not the sort of voter he'll aim for.
Your worries are groundless, I think, Mr Jessop. Unlike the Conservative Party, Lib Dems do not wait for their leader to have a brilliant new idea while running through the cornfields. There is a structure and process for developing policy. It might be a good idea to wait and see what the Lib Dems discuss at their Conference in Bournemouth in September. It is not just the Lib Dem leader who matters.
Yep, the country is holding its breath for the LibDem conference discussion...
I too find these kind of remarks frankly hilarious. The LibDems are of no account at all. It is actually decadent to spend an instant thinking about them given what else is up in the world.
What are your views on an even smaller party = the DUP?
The joke will be on Hannan when the hard left get into power on the back of Brexit. I'm sure he'll be fine though, will probably end up at a lobbying job in Brussels.
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
Indeed. Most senior politicians are unpleasant people; Trump just doesn't bother to hide it by projecting a false personality toward voters. This feels a lot worse; whether it actually is, time will tell.
That's a view that surprised me. I know all the current and recent party leaders well enough to have an opinion on what they're like - none of them seem to me actually unpleasant, unless you count Galloway. For example, May is criticised for being remote, but I've not heard it said that she's personally nasty, and the nephew of a friend works for her and says she's a great boss. And even Corbyn's strongest opponents don't usually say he's unpleasant.
My sense would be most aren't unpleasant - but a fair few are.
I think Gordon Brown certainly had a reputation of being aggressive/bullying/shouting a lot. From people who have worked with them I've heard Andrew Mitchell was a nightmare and also Keith Vaz.
Theresa May tolerated those SpADs who everyone seems to have agreed were horrible, something Gordon Brown was guilty of as well.
It's hard to think of anyone who is really a May loyalist, and that must be damned lonely.
One thing that hasn't been talked about enough is that half of ukip vote went to a Jeremy Corbyn led Labour, even after May basically threw herself at them. Some right wingers on here are predictability saying she wasn't "right wing enough", If she went further right Putney would be a labour seat right now, whilst it's not clear people in the north who have *never* voted Tory would have started.
For a while left wingers have been saying concern over immigration is actually because of a lack of "investment" in public services rather than cultural anxiety. Jeremy Corbyn has painted himself as unashamedly anti austerity so the argument that much the concern over immigration is economic rather than cultural is compelling especially after TMay couldn't dog whistle more even if she tried.
The right wing headbangers (there are lefty ones too) should sit and ponder this, but they wont.
Top trolling of Corbynistas from Daniel Hannan mobile.twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/878970574789324806
Corbyn:
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
OT. It is extraordinary that people-even the really stupid ones on here- couldn't see what was obvious; that as well as being a misogynist and a hopeless president he was also an odious human being.
You must be looking forward to his visit on July 14 at the behest of Macron.
Macron has invited Trump over from a position of strength. The problem with May's invitation for most people was two-fold, 1) it was from a position of weakness, when we were scrabbling around for allies post-brexit, it made us look desperate, and 2) it was a full royal state visit, something normally not offered to Presidents so early in their post.
Only a few nutjobs were saying Trump should be completely banned from setting foot in the UK, and those same nutjobs will be saying the same thing in France.
OT. It is extraordinary that people-even the really stupid ones on here- couldn't see what was obvious; that as well as being a misogynist and a hopeless president he was also an odious human being.
OT. It is extraordinary that people-even the really stupid ones on here- couldn't see what was obvious; that as well as being a misogynist and a hopeless president he was also an odious human being.
You must be looking forward to his visit on July 14 at the behest of Macron.
Macron has invited Trump over from a position of strength. The problem with May's invitation for most people was two-fold, 1) it was from a position of weakness, when we were scrabbling around for allies post-brexit, it made us look desperate, and 2) it was a full royal state visit, something normally not offered to Presidents so early in their post.
Only a few nutjobs were saying Trump should be completely banned from setting foot in the UK, and those same nutjobs will be saying the same thing in France.
The joke will be on Hannan when the hard left get into power on the back of Brexit. I'm sure he'll be fine though, will probably end up at a lobbying job in Brussels.
They will not get into power on the back of Brexit, if they win it will be anti austerity, people forget Corbyn won the 2016 local elections before Brexit but lost the 2017 local elections after Brexit
Top trolling of Corbynistas from Daniel Hannan mobile.twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/878970574789324806
Corbyn:
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
Grant Shapps refuses to appear on channel 4 news as he could not be sure of its impartiality.Can we be sure of any of the main news organisations and their main interviewers.I always thought Tom Bradby used to be the most anti Labour.However I think ITV news and him gave a very balanced and fair coverage through the election campaign.
Indeed. Most senior politicians are unpleasant people; Trump just doesn't bother to hide it by projecting a false personality toward voters. This feels a lot worse; whether it actually is, time will tell.
That's a view that surprised me. I know all the current and recent party leaders well enough to have an opinion on what they're like - none of them seem to me actually unpleasant, unless you count Galloway. For example, May is criticised for being remote, but I've not heard it said that she's personally nasty, and the nephew of a friend works for her and says she's a great boss. And even Corbyn's strongest opponents don't usually say he's unpleasant.
My sense would be most aren't unpleasant - but a fair few are.
I think Gordon Brown certainly had a reputation of being aggressive/bullying/shouting a lot. From people who have worked with them I've heard Andrew Mitchell was a nightmare and also Keith Vaz.
Theresa May tolerated those SpADs who everyone seems to have agreed were horrible, something Gordon Brown was guilty of as well.
The last point is a good one - leaders tend to feel beleaguered (and often are indeed exactly that) and they cling to people who are personally loyal (Cameron/Osborne, Corbyn/McDnnell, May/SpaDs). Sometimes the loyalists then get cocky and nasty to anyone who doesn't share their personal loyalty. The exception that springs to mind is Blair/Brown - Brown was not a comfortable mate for Blair, but Blair felt he provided something that was needed and stuck to him despite numerous temptations to dump him - partly because he'd have been a dangerous enemy on the backbenches, but mainly because Blair is predominantly a rationalist, who coolly judges what he thinks is the best tactical option.
But you can make a case that the Labour government was poisoned by the Blair-Brown relationship and Blair would have been better advised to choose a loyal mate - Chancellor Mandelson? It's hard to think of anyone who is really a May loyalist, and that must be damned lonely.
The country benefited from having Brown stand up to Blair on the euro I think. In a way they complimented each other.
But clearly it dissolved into nastiness and backstabbing. Damien McBride's book was interesting and showed just how toxic things became.
Mr. City, there's a difference between uncertainty, though, and the lead presenter/newsreader being accused of shouting "**** the Tories" [or any party] and refusing to deny it.
Grant Shapps refuses to appear on channel 4 news as he could not be sure of its impartiality.Can we be sure of any of the main news organisations and their main interviewers.I always thought Tom Bradby used to be the most anti Labour.However I think ITV news and him gave a very balanced and fair coverage through the election campaign.
All journos have a certain bias, which is natural, but I feel that Mr Snow might have let his feelings out the bag that it's impacting his image too much.
I said on election night that I struggled to comprehend a world where the Tories held Mansfield and Labour held Canterbury, still do.
To understand Canterbury, you need to realise quite how much anger there was amongst lifelong Tories that Brazier reneged on his promise to stand down.
I wish I'd asked my mum, who lives in the constituency, about this before the election as I would have been tipping it to fall.
OT. It is extraordinary that people-even the really stupid ones on here- couldn't see what was obvious; that as well as being a misogynist and a hopeless president he was also an odious human being.
Before he was elected, there was little doubt that Trump was a nasty little man. But that does not automatically mean he'll be a bad president.
However, I see little reason to think he isn't a terrible president, and that he's rapidly degrading the very office he holds.
As an aside, I think JFK was an absolutely terrible presidential candidate and president, a small man and a liar whose mistruths brought us to the brink of nuclear war. Yet he's now lauded as a great president, so what do I know?
Indeed. Most senior politicians are unpleasant people; Trump just doesn't bother to hide it by projecting a false personality toward voters. This feels a lot worse; whether it actually is, time will tell.
I fundamentally disagree with this, though I've never met a senior politician to know if I'm right to disagree.
I think Cameron, Miliband and even Blair are probably pleasant people; broad-minded and accepting of other views and perspectives, even if they disagree with them. Or perhaps they really are unpleasant, and are successful at projecting an opposite image.
Yeah. I'd also disagree to a large extent. I obviously haven't met everyone (though I guess a few here have). But I think there's a fairly normal split between pleasant and unpleasant people. And most are both depending on when you catch them!
I have always found most MPs and other elected reps to be broadly decent and most have relatively thick skin (after a fashion). After all, the majority (or at least a decent number) have not gone into politics as a financial game. Many really DO want to serve the people. A fair number have effectively landed into it as the obvious person from their local party to 'have a go' at a particular time.
Some of the most obviously unpleasant ones are the ones who are chippy and needy. There's a former Lib Dem MP who hangs around Westminster like a groupie who always seemed like a tool.
Gordon Brown was so angry you could tell he was a git from the other side of the room, while looking at his back.
I never met Cameron after he became PM but before it he came over well.
In NI, I always find most of the politicians perfectly pleasant to talk to. They just become incredibly defensive and they lose any nuance or interesting things to say the moment the microphone is switched on. It's astonishingly frustrating.
I said on election night that I struggled to comprehend a world where the Tories held Mansfield and Labour held Canterbury, still do.
To understand Canterbury, you need to realise quite how much anger there was amongst lifelong Tories that Brazier reneged on his promise to stand down.
I wish I'd asked my mum, who lives in the constituency, about this before the election as I would have been tipping it to fall.
I suppose it shows how embarrassed she is, but it's not advisable for an MP to block a constituent.
This is going to happen quite a lot I suspect. Labour is in a terrible place on Brexit. Many of its younger voters were anti Brexit, it's senior leadership is pro Brexit, many of its MPs are pro Single Market. Very few of them seem to know any detail at all on either the SM or CU, or the difference between the Turkey CU and EU CU, or Norway and Switzerland.
The abstention was simply to allow people to believe that it was all a Tory issue, to allow people to potentially paint whichever outcome on Labour that it wanted to see. Sooner or later they will have to pick a side on this, and then the loose coalition of Remainers/Soft Brexiters/hard socialists/Hard Brexiteers is going to break apart in a spectacular way.
Grant Shapps refuses to appear on channel 4 news as he could not be sure of its impartiality.Can we be sure of any of the main news organisations and their main interviewers.I always thought Tom Bradby used to be the most anti Labour.However I think ITV news and him gave a very balanced and fair coverage through the election campaign.
All journos have a certain bias, which is natural, but I feel that Mr Snow might have let his feelings out the bag that it's impacting his image too much.
Wasn't John Snow previously lauded for revealing (or at least alleging) the BBC's lefty bias, or am I mixing him up with someone else?
Grant Shapps refuses to appear on channel 4 news as he could not be sure of its impartiality.Can we be sure of any of the main news organisations and their main interviewers.I always thought Tom Bradby used to be the most anti Labour.However I think ITV news and him gave a very balanced and fair coverage through the election campaign.
Jon Snow has to go. I have suspicions about various people's views but he really should (and I'm sure does) know that he's ruined his position.
He's always had rather obvious opinions which differ from mine but he has overstepped the mark as a serious journalist now.
Grant Shapps refuses to appear on channel 4 news as he could not be sure of its impartiality.Can we be sure of any of the main news organisations and their main interviewers.I always thought Tom Bradby used to be the most anti Labour.However I think ITV news and him gave a very balanced and fair coverage through the election campaign.
All journos have a certain bias, which is natural, but I feel that Mr Snow might have let his feelings out the bag that it's impacting his image too much.
Wasn't John Snow previously lauded for revealing (or at least alleging) the BBC's lefty bias, or am I mixing him up with someone else?
The Times making the point this morning that Northern Ireland is the only place in the UK where same-sex marriage is still not allowed. This will be a surprise in our local, Anglican Parish church.
OT. It is extraordinary that people-even the really stupid ones on here- couldn't see what was obvious; that as well as being a misogynist and a hopeless president he was also an odious human being.
Certainly it vindicates Corbyn's decision not to take up his offer to return to the Shadow Cabinet - preesumably he'd have resigned again. I think any appointee should be asked whether they're prepared to stay on for the forseeable future despite whatever unease they may feel about the Brexit position.
Opposing Brexit matters very much to some of the Labour vote, especially the traditional middle-class vote (like me), which is well-represented in the PLP. Corbyn is as usual exactly what he says he is - he'd mildly prefer us to be members of the EU but as you say of the campaigners he's not that bothered. The nature of Brexit and what we make of it is much more relevant for him, and going to the stake for single market membership seems to him an odd and probably impractical idea.
Most voters are also in oh-well-let's-get-on-with-it mood, mingled with apprehension. Labour's position is probably closest of the main parties in that, but clearly reemergence of splits isn't helpful.
Alistair's piece is good, as usual. An underlying issue is that most floating voters don't seem to think in left-right terms any more. They genuinely float around, looking for politicians who catch their eye.
I was a Labour member for years and Corbyn has never been pro-EU he just didn't have the guts to say so during the referendum campaign. I'm not buying your honest man of principle I'm afraid.
I do feel strongly about the EU and when we look back on this period of history the big mistake the party made will not be choosing a left winger per se but choosing one of only the handful of MPs that was happy to see us Brexit.
Amazing. A few hours is a long time in politics. The swift abortion U-turn and the QS debate becomes a disaster for Labour.
The kremlinology will be interesting. It will be interesting to see if Jezza or Chukka cops the blame for taking the spotlight off Stella's triumph and the government's toils.
Have a feeling the Remainer bubble was burst for good yesterday.
Corbyn has been anti EU all along, he managed to kid a few gullible lefties but then that's not hard.
It might end up being quite the opposite.
I'm sure it will. At last there's a real remainer with some clout and a huge potential support. The only likely loser is Corbyn and if his party splits on this then he'll find himself on the wrong side of his powerbase. Momentum
Indeed. Most senior politicians are unpleasant people; Trump just doesn't bother to hide it by projecting a false personality toward voters. This feels a lot worse; whether it actually is, time will tell.
That's a view that surprised me. I know all the current and recent party leaders well enough to have an opinion on what they're like - none of them seem to me actually unpleasant, unless you count Galloway. For example, May is criticised for being remote, but I've not heard it said that she's personally nasty, and the nephew of a friend works for her and says she's a great boss. And even Corbyn's strongest opponents don't usually say he's unpleasant.
My sense would be most aren't unpleasant - but a fair few are.
I think Gordon Brown certainly had a reputation of being aggressive/bullying/shouting a lot. From people who have worked with them I've heard Andrew Mitchell was a nightmare and also Keith Vaz.
Theresa May tolerated those SpADs who everyone seems to have agreed were horrible, something Gordon Brown was guilty of as well.
It's hard to think of anyone who is really a May loyalist, and that must be damned lonely.
Why has it taken people who are supposedly the brightest this long to work out that Corbyn and fellow clowns hate the EU and all its works (except the social chapter)?
The Times making the point this morning that Northern Ireland is the only place in the UK where same-sex marriage is still not allowed. This will be a surprise in our local, Anglican Parish church.
It's says something about progress that the Republic is now considerably more socially liberal than Northern Ireland, given that until the 1990's the Republic's laws and constitution were pretty much written by the catholic church.
Have a feeling the Remainer bubble was burst for good yesterday.
Corbyn has been anti EU all along, he managed to kid a few gullible lefties but then that's not hard.
It might end up being quite the opposite.
I'm sure it will. At last there's a real remainer with some clout and a huge potential support. The only likely loser is Corbyn and if his party splits on this then he'll find himself on the wrong side of his powerbase. Momentum
Once more, since when was Angela Merkel on the left?
Left wingers in the UK have tended to take her side in recent years, although that's probably because they instinctively reject anything her uk detractors say more than agreeing with her
I suppose it shows how embarrassed she is, but it's not advisable for an MP to block a constituent.
This is going to happen quite a lot I suspect. Labour is in a terrible place on Brexit. Many of its younger voters were anti Brexit, it's senior leadership is pro Brexit, many of its MPs are pro Single Market. Very few of them seem to know any detail at all on either the SM or CU, or the difference between the Turkey CU and EU CU, or Norway and Switzerland.
The abstention was simply to allow people to believe that it was all a Tory issue, to allow people to potentially paint whichever outcome on Labour that it wanted to see. Sooner or later they will have to pick a side on this, and then the loose coalition of Remainers/Soft Brexiters/hard socialists/Hard Brexiteers is going to break apart in a spectacular way.
Yes, they have fooled most of the people most of the time up to now. I hope you're right.
The Times making the point this morning that Northern Ireland is the only place in the UK where same-sex marriage is still not allowed. This will be a surprise in our local, Anglican Parish church.
It's says something about progress that the Republic is now considerably more socially liberal than Northern Ireland, given that until the 1990's the Republic's laws and constitution were pretty much written by the catholic church.
But it's a terribly tragedy how and why the Catholic church's grip was loosened.
Strange thing is there are enough politicians out there in NI and the people to move NI level with the rest of these islands, socially.
But the constitutional question queers the pitch (sorry).
But no point going back there. I can definitely tell you there's no difference in opinion of the normal people in my village than in the next one along over the border. Rural Ireland both sides of the border is still socially conservative while being nowhere near as old-fashioned as you might think from an English city.
One thing that hasn't been talked about enough is that half of ukip vote went to a Jeremy Corbyn led Labour, even after May basically threw herself at them. Some right wingers on here are predictability saying she wasn't "right wing enough", If she went further right Putney would be a labour seat right now, whilst it's not clear people in the north who have *never* voted Tory would have started.
For a while left wingers have been saying concern over immigration is actually because of a lack of "investment" in public services rather than cultural anxiety. Jeremy Corbyn has painted himself as unashamedly anti austerity so the argument that much the concern over immigration is economic rather than cultural is compelling especially after TMay couldn't dog whistle more even if she tried.
The right wing headbangers (there are lefty ones too) should sit and ponder this, but they wont.
I think this is one of the most interesting questions that came out of the election result.
Why did UKIP voters support Corbyn? He didn't even promise to reduce immigration! Your view that it may have been driven by economic rather than cultural concerns is interesting... Having been consistently anti-austerity, ex-UKIP voters trust him to invest in public services.
I wonder if part of it is that there was a general dissatisfaction among many UKIPers with politics as usual, and Corbyn clearly represents a break with that.
Mr. Fletcher, cheers. It's especially rubbish because the deal with Sky only originated in the BBC actively seeking them out to throw away coverage for which they'd already paid. Very Judas Iscariot.
Have a feeling the Remainer bubble was burst for good yesterday.
Corbyn has been anti EU all along, he managed to kid a few gullible lefties but then that's not hard.
Fooling a few gullible lefties is one thing... But what about all those daft remain Tories who voted for him in seats like Canterbury?
Bet they're feeling pretty darn stupid now!
The irony is that I have a feeling if Theresa had got her landslide she'd probably have gone for a softer Brexit because it would have protected her from the Peter Bone's of the Tory Party,
The hung parliament has actually made a hard Brexit much more probable.
Mr. Fletcher, cheers. It's especially rubbish because the deal with Sky only originated in the BBC actively seeking them out to throw away coverage for which they'd already paid. Very Judas Iscariot.
I share your concern about Vince. The most rosy scenario is that Vince recognises that his role is to provide an apprenticeship and transitional period for his deputy, assuming she wants to step up in the first place. However, humility and selflessness do not appear to be Vince's most obvious characteristics. The centre faces the challenge of how to recapture its radicalism, after the damage of the coalition years. Liberals in particular used to be driven by a very strong desire to change the world - their image of splitting the difference between the two larger parties was always thrust upon them by the voters rather than part of the self-image. Coalition has dented this dramatically but, like Macron, the LDs need to try and become the radical centre once again, championing the interests of the young in particular. Radical centerism would be hugely less risky than radical left or right. Again, Vince would appear to be the last person to go in this direction. It already feels to me that we will be treading water waiting for Vince to move on.
Vince is a poor choice for leader. Still 20 days to the deadline to stand.
As someone who finds himself trapped politically between the Lib Dems and the Conservatives, I fail to see what Vince would bring to the table policywise that I'd like. But perhaps he'll surprise me, or perhaps I'm not the sort of voter he'll aim for.
Your worries are groundless, I think, Mr Jessop. Unlike the Conservative Party, Lib Dems do not wait for their leader to have a brilliant new idea while running through the cornfields. There is a structure and process for developing policy. It might be a good idea to wait and see what the Lib Dems discuss at their Conference in Bournemouth in September. It is not just the Lib Dem leader who matters.
Yep, the country is holding its breath for the LibDem conference discussion...
I too find these kind of remarks frankly hilarious. The LibDems are of no account at all. It is actually decadent to spend an instant thinking about them given what else is up in the world.
Where are we on the LibDem leadership? Do we really need to wait until the middle of July to find out if Sir Vince is on for a coronation?
Comments
As the investigation continues, the cause of death is yet to be established.
http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/28/man-who-died-in-custody-had-drugs-overdose-from-packets-in-his-throat-6739660/#ixzz4lTEtSbum
I think Gordon Brown certainly had a reputation of being aggressive/bullying/shouting a lot.
From people who have worked with them I've heard Andrew Mitchell was a nightmare and also Keith Vaz.
Theresa May tolerated those SpADs who everyone seems to have agreed were horrible, something Gordon Brown was guilty of as well.
"Maria said, "I wish people could have gone to the hospital and seen him. The first thing you noticed was his neck. It was triple the normal size. He had to have something to hold his head straight because his neck wasn't strong enough.
"They say the police didn't injure him. So how did that happen? We want justice." "
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/angela-merkel-same-sex-marriage-vote-germany-legalisation-lgbt-rights-christian-democrat-man-woman-a7815846.html?amp
Compare and contrast Corbyn in the Brexit Referendum with Corbyn in the 2017 GE. Spot the difference in campaigning? Corbyn showed with the difference that he never wanted to be in the EU.
Remainers suddenly discovering this gives me some hope that Corbyn won't win power in the future (although not much).
Socialist Worker - est. circulation: <10,000;
Der Stürmer 1938 circulation c. 480,000;
Daily 'Crush The Saboteurs' Mail circulation: 1,500,000;
Influence of DS - truly frightening at the time
Influence of DM - questionable these days
Influence of SW - diddly-squat (even with Mike's retweeting help!)
It's all relative.
Andy Street as next Tory leader?
When Theresa called the GE we all (well me at least) thought it would be about Brexit but she made the mistake of having nothing to say on Brexit - and Jezza took advantage.
https://mobile.twitter.com/DanielJHannan/status/878970574789324806
To believe that he will suddenly tear up Labour’s present approach to Brexit is to misunderstand his entire political career, his character – and his recent record on Brexit. Corbyn is an old-time Eurosceptic who leads a markedly pro-EU party. He pays lip-service to its consensus, but without much action to follow it up. With the assistance of John McDonnell, Seumas Milne and Andrew Fisher, he played a stonewalling blinder during the referendum campaign. As we have pointed out previously, Milne used “every trick in the bureaucratic book, and then some, to stop Corbyn upping the ante for Remain. Speeches were watered down, e-mails queried, press releases blocked or delayed, meetings rearranged or cancelled – or simply not turned up to”. In effect, Labour’s leader and his cabal sabotaged the cause that he was nominally signed up to.
http://www.conservativehome.com/thetorydiary/2017/06/the-future-may-or-may-not-be-bright-but-either-way-the-futures-brexit.html
But you can make a case that the Labour government was poisoned by the Blair-Brown relationship and Blair would have been better advised to choose a loyal mate - Chancellor Mandelson? It's hard to think of anyone who is really a May loyalist, and that must be damned lonely.
As for Blair/Brown. Rereading 'The Rivals' the other day it struck me how much Blair owed Brown from their early days when Blair first came into Parliament. Brown taught him everything and introduced him to the party and union systems.
https://tinyurl.com/ycqpxkdv
https://tinyurl.com/yd3t7vvd
https://tinyurl.com/y99lrjll
For a while left wingers have been saying concern over immigration is actually because of a lack of "investment" in public services rather than cultural anxiety. Jeremy Corbyn has painted himself as unashamedly anti austerity so the argument that much the concern over immigration is economic rather than cultural is compelling especially after TMay couldn't dog whistle more even if she tried.
The right wing headbangers (there are lefty ones too) should sit and ponder this, but they wont.
I am puzzled. I thought the Tories were a ship united under Capt May and sailing towards a bright Brexit future.
Only a few nutjobs were saying Trump should be completely banned from setting foot in the UK, and those same nutjobs will be saying the same thing in France.
His return a few years ago was not an unparalleled success.
Roger is forsaking the South of France in protest and decamping to Brexitannia.
From Grasse to Grimsby
http://www.lefigaro.fr/politique/2017/06/28/01002-20170628ARTFIG00104-pour-melenchon-trump-n-est-pas-le-bienvenu-au-defile-du-14-juillet.php
But clearly it dissolved into nastiness and backstabbing. Damien McBride's book was interesting and showed just how toxic things became.
Corbyn has been anti EU all along, he managed to kid a few gullible lefties but then that's not hard.
I wish I'd asked my mum, who lives in the constituency, about this before the election as I would have been tipping it to fall.
I have always found most MPs and other elected reps to be broadly decent and most have relatively thick skin (after a fashion). After all, the majority (or at least a decent number) have not gone into politics as a financial game. Many really DO want to serve the people. A fair number have effectively landed into it as the obvious person from their local party to 'have a go' at a particular time.
Some of the most obviously unpleasant ones are the ones who are chippy and needy. There's a former Lib Dem MP who hangs around Westminster like a groupie who always seemed like a tool.
Gordon Brown was so angry you could tell he was a git from the other side of the room, while looking at his back.
I never met Cameron after he became PM but before it he came over well.
In NI, I always find most of the politicians perfectly pleasant to talk to. They just become incredibly defensive and they lose any nuance or interesting things to say the moment the microphone is switched on. It's astonishingly frustrating.
The abstention was simply to allow people to believe that it was all a Tory issue, to allow people to potentially paint whichever outcome on Labour that it wanted to see. Sooner or later they will have to pick a side on this, and then the loose coalition of Remainers/Soft Brexiters/hard socialists/Hard Brexiteers is going to break apart in a spectacular way.
He's always had rather obvious opinions which differ from mine but he has overstepped the mark as a serious journalist now.
I'm sure there's a perch for him with the Canary.
Anyway I think I know what he means and Angela can do no wrong in my eyes
I was a Labour member for years and Corbyn has never been pro-EU he just didn't have the guts to say so during the referendum campaign. I'm not buying your honest man of principle I'm afraid.
I do feel strongly about the EU and when we look back on this period of history the big mistake the party made will not be choosing a left winger per se but choosing one of only the handful of MPs that was happy to see us Brexit.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/40455556
*Runs off to buy a party hat*
Humbug.
Theresa May is more "progressive" than Angela Merkel!
Fancy that...
Well, that's 100 hours I'll be watching something else then.
I saw a lot of Catherine West doing interviews in the run up to and after the election, quite shocked she has now gone.
Worcestershire. Worcestershire. Worcestershire. Yeah, Yeah Yeah
Worcestershire. Worcestershire. Worcestershire. Yeah, Yeah Yeah
Strange thing is there are enough politicians out there in NI and the people to move NI level with the rest of these islands, socially.
But the constitutional question queers the pitch (sorry).
But no point going back there. I can definitely tell you there's no difference in opinion of the normal people in my village than in the next one along over the border. Rural Ireland both sides of the border is still socially conservative while being nowhere near as old-fashioned as you might think from an English city.
Why did UKIP voters support Corbyn?
He didn't even promise to reduce immigration!
Your view that it may have been driven by economic rather than cultural concerns is interesting... Having been consistently anti-austerity, ex-UKIP voters trust him to invest in public services.
I wonder if part of it is that there was a general dissatisfaction among many UKIPers with politics as usual, and Corbyn clearly represents a break with that.
Bet they're feeling pretty darn stupid now!
The irony is that I have a feeling if Theresa had got her landslide she'd probably have gone for a softer Brexit because it would have protected her from the Peter Bone's of the Tory Party,
The hung parliament has actually made a hard Brexit much more probable.
Perhaps it was more than a few people. If so, feck knows where we are.
Who's leading the Space Navies?