Look Corbynistas, who 'hate' Nigel Farage and have called him all kinds of names in the past. Your guy is in his good books. Imagine calling yourself a 'progressive' and getting the stamp of approval by the man who supports Trump. And Corbynistas want to tell people like me, we're Blairites and Tories? Corbyn getting approval from one of the most right-wing men in the country.
.....and it starts again. I have to say, Corbyn has brought this all on himself.
In what way?
By thinking that he could take a line on Brexit that signifcantly departs from what many Labour MPs think.
Erm - have a look at the manifesto. It's the Labour Remainer Ultras who are in the wrong party.
No, Labour have been a pro-EU party for years and years. It's Corbyn who is in the wrong party - Labour is not a Hard Left organisation, yet he and McDonnell are both on the Hard Left.
The manifesto line on Brexit does not reflect what many Labour MPs think. It by and large reflects the thoughts of Corbyn and McDonnell.
Corbyn was being unrealistic if he thought that all Labour MPs were going to stick to his line on Brexit.
And many of it's voters.
Many of Labour's voters are also Remainers. That's the trouble - in accquiring some of the Kipper vote as well as Labour Leavers there is now a coalition between them and Remainers that Corbyn has to negotiate.
If Corbyn and Labour run on a ticket of staying in the customs union, single market and to keep FOM the Kippers will go back to voting for Ukip or maybe even Tory, Labour will be demolished.
It's the WWC that Labour used to represent, remember them?
.....and it starts again. I have to say, Corbyn has brought this all on himself.
In what way?
By thinking that he could take a line on Brexit that signifcantly departs from what many Labour MPs think.
Erm - have a look at the manifesto. It's the Labour Remainer Ultras who are in the wrong party.
No, Labour have been a pro-EU party for years and years. It's Corbyn who is in the wrong party - Labour is not a Hard Left organisation, yet he and McDonnell are both on the Hard Left.
The manifesto line on Brexit does not reflect what many Labour MPs think. It by and large reflects the thoughts of Corbyn and McDonnell.
Christ, where have you been for the last four weeks? Who the fuck do you think those people were voting for? It certainly wasn't Chuka Umunna.
Where have you been for the last four weeks?
Everything I've said is true. Why, you think Labour have become a party full of Hard Brexiteers because Corbyn and McDonnell are leading them?
You think all Labour voters are Hard Brexiteers, do you? Think again.
You said "Labour is not a Hard Left organisation". Oh yes it is.
In many respects, it is. But have a look at its immigration policy, and its position on policing, security and related matters. It's pretty hard right on those.
I believe that democratic decision has been made and I'm not in favour of cancelling Brexit. Don't think that just because someone respects the vote that they desire a Hard off the cliff edge Brexit. Even some of the Leavers on this site don't want that.
Corbyn reassured Kippers, and that's what got them on board - Remainers were not looking for such 'reassurance'.
There is no consensus in this country on what kind of Brexit we should have.
Sorry, but in my view, the public would consider that your preferred way forward would be "cancelling Brexit" to all intents and purposes -- although I don't think most people would have a clue what "the Single Market" was if you said it to them, most people do think controls on immigration are a non-negotiable part of Brexit, which staying in the SM would seem to preclude.
And a lot of Remain voters certainly were looking for reassurance - loads of them were citing a concern that Labour would overturn Brexit in the first couple of weeks of the campaign as a reason why they felt they couldn't vote for the party, even if they did vote Remain. And if you don't trust my anecdotes, there's been a fair few polls from YouGov and the like which have put the number of people who want to overturn Brexit at about 20-25%.
There are alot more Don Valley, Sunderland Central Brexity constituencies than there are Streathams and Batterseas for Labour to be honest.
.....and it starts again. I have to say, Corbyn has brought this all on himself.
In what way?
By thinking that he could take a line on Brexit that signifcantly departs from what many Labour MPs think.
Erm - have a look at the manifesto. It's the Labour Remainer Ultras who are in the wrong party.
No, Labour have been a pro-EU party for years and years. It's Corbyn who is in the wrong party - Labour is not a Hard Left organisation, yet he and McDonnell are both on the Hard Left.
The manifesto line on Brexit does not reflect what many Labour MPs think. It by and large reflects the thoughts of Corbyn and McDonnell.
Christ, where have you been for the last four weeks? Who the fuck do you think those people were voting for? It certainly wasn't Chuka Umunna.
Where have you been for the last four weeks?
Everything I've said is true. Why, you think Labour have become a party full of Hard Brexiteers because Corbyn and McDonnell are leading them?
You think all Labour voters are Hard Brexiteers, do you? Think again.
You said "Labour is not a Hard Left organisation". Oh yes it is.
In many respects, it is. But have a look at its immigration policy, and its position on policing, security and related matters. It's pretty hard right on those.
I assume on this scale the Tories would be to the right of Genghis Khan?
I believe that democratic decision has been made and I'm not in favour of cancelling Brexit. Don't think that just because someone respects the vote that they desire a Hard off the cliff edge Brexit. Even some of the Leavers on this site don't want that.
Corbyn reassured Kippers, and that's what got them on board - Remainers were not looking for such 'reassurance'.
There is no consensus in this country on what kind of Brexit we should have.
Sorry, but in my view, the public would consider that your preferred way forward would be "cancelling Brexit" to all intents and purposes -- although I don't think most people would have a clue what "the Single Market" was if you said it to them, most people do think controls on immigration are a non-negotiable part of Brexit, which staying in the SM would seem to preclude.
And a lot of Remain voters certainly were looking for reassurance - loads of them were citing a concern that Labour would overturn Brexit in the first couple of weeks of the campaign as a reason why they felt they couldn't vote for the party, even if they did vote Remain. And if you don't trust my anecdotes, there's been a fair few polls from YouGov and the like which have put the number of people who want to overturn Brexit at about 20-25%.
There are alot more Don Valley, Sunderland Central Brexity constituencies than there are Streathams and Batterseas for Labour to be honest.
I was in a constituency which is probably slap-bang in the middle of those (close to 50/50 in the referendum), and I'm pretty sure Labour wouldn't have won even here if they hadn't accepted Brexit.
Rightly or wrongly, it is just seen as a basic point of democracy to everyone who wasn't a hardcore EU supporter.
I believe that democratic decision has been made and I'm not in favour of cancelling Brexit. Don't think that just because someone respects the vote that they desire a Hard off the cliff edge Brexit. Even some of the Leavers on this site don't want that.
Corbyn reassured Kippers, and that's what got them on board - Remainers were not looking for such 'reassurance'.
There is no consensus in this country on what kind of Brexit we should have.
Sorry, but in my view, the public would consider that your preferred way forward would be "cancelling Brexit" to all intents and purposes -- although I don't think most people would have a clue what "the Single Market" was if you said it to them, most people do think controls on immigration are a non-negotiable part of Brexit, which staying in the SM would seem to preclude.
And a lot of Remain voters certainly were looking for reassurance - loads of them were citing a concern that Labour would overturn Brexit in the first couple of weeks of the campaign as a reason why they felt they couldn't vote for the party, even if they did vote Remain. And if you don't trust my anecdotes, there's been a fair few polls from YouGov and the like which have put the number of people who want to overturn Brexit at about 20-25%.
My preferred way is membership of either the single market or the customs union.
As I showed in my previous link, many members of the public say that they support single market membership so they certainly don't see it as 'cancelling Brexit.' They just believe that you can hold two opposing positions at once.
In regard to 'reassurances' - I was using that in the context of Hard Brexit, not no Brexit at all. But in any case, I wouldn't correlate your ancedotes with polls you've mentioned. If I was asked by pollster 'would I want to overturn Brexit' I would say no - that doesn't mean that I was looking for reassurances from Labour that they wouldn't overturn Brexit.
.....and it starts again. I have to say, Corbyn has brought this all on himself.
In what way?
By thinking that he could take a line on Brexit that signifcantly departs from what many Labour MPs think.
Erm - have a look at the manifesto. It's the Labour Remainer Ultras who are in the wrong party.
No, Labour have been a pro-EU party for years and years. It's Corbyn who is in the wrong party - Labour is not a Hard Left organisation, yet he and McDonnell are both on the Hard Left.
The manifesto line on Brexit does not reflect what many Labour MPs think. It by and large reflects the thoughts of Corbyn and McDonnell.
Corbyn was being unrealistic if he thought that all Labour MPs were going to stick to his line on Brexit.
And many of it's voters.
Many of Labour's voters are also Remainers. That's the trouble - in accquiring some of the Kipper vote as well as Labour Leavers there is now a coalition between them and Remainers that Corbyn has to negotiate.
If Corbyn and Labour run on a ticket of staying in the customs union, single market and to keep FOM the Kippers will go back to voting for Ukip or maybe even Tory, Labour will be demolished.
It's the WWC that Labour used to represent, remember them?
Labour certainly has a problem keeping its WWC Leavers onside, but the situation could change. If Brexit turns out to be a disaster for them, as many expect, their view may well change and that would dispel Corbyn's dilemma.
Of course the country would be in deep shit by then, but that's looking increasingly inevitable anyway.
You said "Labour is not a Hard Left organisation". Oh yes it is.
No it is not.
Corbyn and McDonnell don't have controls over Labour's internal structures just yet....
'Yet' being the operative word.
My view is that Corbyn doesn't want to be PM; or at least he didn't before the last GE. His task is to alter the party to make it hard, if not impossible, for a centrist Blairite to come to power again. He'll then hand over to a leftist who is more electable.
However I think Glastonbury makes it clear that it's all gone to his head, poor chap. He's been an MP long enough to realise that such mass adulation soon turns to anger and hatred.
(Godwin alert)
Glastonbury: the 21st century Nuremberg Rally for losers. With Corbyn as Adolf and Jon Snow as Goebbels. Instead of massed ranks of blonde lookalikes, lots of middle-class numpties standing in mud as they tweet to their two equally vacuous followers.
(Do you get the impression I dislike Glastonbury? Who can blame me: they allowed Radiohead in this year).
.....and it starts again. I have to say, Corbyn has brought this all on himself.
In what way?
By thinking that he could take a line on Brexit that signifcantly departs from what many Labour MPs think.
Erm - have a look at the manifesto. It's the Labour Remainer Ultras who are in the wrong party.
No, Labour have been a pro-EU party for years and years. It's Corbyn who is in the wrong party - Labour is not a Hard Left organisation, yet he and McDonnell are both on the Hard Left.
The manifesto line on Brexit does not reflect what many Labour MPs think. It by and large reflects the thoughts of Corbyn and McDonnell.
Corbyn was being unrealistic if he thought that all Labour MPs were going to stick to his line on Brexit.
And many of it's voters.
Many of Labour's voters are also Remainers. That's the trouble - in accquiring some of the Kipper vote as well as Labour Leavers there is now a coalition between them and Remainers that Corbyn has to negotiate.
If Corbyn and Labour run on a ticket of staying in the customs union, single market and to keep FOM the Kippers will go back to voting for Ukip or maybe even Tory, Labour will be demolished.
It's the WWC that Labour used to represent, remember them?
Labour represent more than WWC people. There are others in Labour's coalition of voters that deserve a voice as well.
I'm not asking Labour to run on a ticket of staying in the customs union and the single market - just one of them, at the very least.
If Kippers want to go back to voting UKIP (unlikely to go Tory given that they didn't in this GE) that's fine. Labour said they believed in a jobs first Brexit - they need to put their money where their mouth is.
I believe that democratic decision has been made and I'm not in favour of cancelling Brexit. Don't think that just because someone respects the vote that they desire a Hard off the cliff edge Brexit. Even some of the Leavers on this site don't want that.
Corbyn reassured Kippers, and that's what got them on board - Remainers were not looking for such 'reassurance'.
There is no consensus in this country on what kind of Brexit we should have.
Sorry, but in my view, the public would consider that your preferred way forward would be "cancelling Brexit" to all intents and purposes -- although I don't think most people would have a clue what "the Single Market" was if you said it to them, most people do think controls on immigration are a non-negotiable part of Brexit, which staying in the SM would seem to preclude.
And a lot of Remain voters certainly were looking for reassurance - loads of them were citing a concern that Labour would overturn Brexit in the first couple of weeks of the campaign as a reason why they felt they couldn't vote for the party, even if they did vote Remain. And if you don't trust my anecdotes, there's been a fair few polls from YouGov and the like which have put the number of people who want to overturn Brexit at about 20-25%.
My preferred way is membership of either the single market or the customs union.
As I showed in my previous link, many members of the public say that they support single market membership so they certainly don't see it as 'cancelling Brexit.' They just believe that you can hold two opposing positions at once.
In regard to 'reassurances' - I was using that in the context of Hard Brexit, not no Brexit at all. But in any case, I wouldn't correlate your ancedotes with polls you've mentioned. If I was asked by pollster 'would I want to overturn Brexit' I would say no - that doesn't mean that I was looking for reassurances from Labour that they wouldn't overturn Brexit.
That's because Joe Public has no clue what "the single market" is. If you asked them if they thought keeping immigration policies exactly the same would be respecting the referendum result, I'm pretty sure you'd get a resounding 'No', including from many Remain voters.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
the push for continued Single Market membership, supported by a Remain coalition stretching through George Osborne’s Evening Standard through Vince Cable to Chuka Umanna, will get nowhere. And that Corbyn’s take and instincts on Brexit are part of the reason why.
I believe that democratic decision has been made and I'm not in favour of cancelling Brexit. Don't think that just because someone respects the vote that they desire a Hard off the cliff edge Brexit. Even some of the Leavers on this site don't want that.
Corbyn reassured Kippers, and that's what got them on board - Remainers were not looking for such 'reassurance'.
There is no consensus in this country on what kind of Brexit we should have.
Sorry, but in my view, the public would consider that your preferred way forward would be "cancelling Brexit" to all intents and purposes -- although I don't think most people would have a clue what "the Single Market" was if you said it to them, most people do think controls on immigration are a non-negotiable part of Brexit, which staying in the SM would seem to preclude.
And a lot of Remain voters certainly were looking for reassurance - loads of them were citing a concern that Labour would overturn Brexit in the first couple of weeks of the campaign as a reason why they felt they couldn't vote for the party, even if they did vote Remain. And if you don't trust my anecdotes, there's been a fair few polls from YouGov and the like which have put the number of people who want to overturn Brexit at about 20-25%.
My preferred way is membership of either the single market or the customs union.
As I showed in my previous link, many members of the public say that they support single market membership so they certainly don't see it as 'cancelling Brexit.' They just believe that you can hold two opposing positions at once.
In regard to 'reassurances' - I was using that in the context of Hard Brexit, not no Brexit at all. But in any case, I wouldn't correlate your ancedotes with polls you've mentioned. If I was asked by pollster 'would I want to overturn Brexit' I would say no - that doesn't mean that I was looking for reassurances from Labour that they wouldn't overturn Brexit.
That's because Joe Public has no clue what "the single market" is. If you asked them if they thought keeping immigration policies exactly the same would be respecting the referendum result, I'm pretty sure you'd get a resounding 'No', including from many Remain voters.
And if you asked them would they accept a possibility of a drop in living standards and higher taxes in order to lower immigration, I wonder what they'd say.
There is no consensus on what kind of Brexit we should have, which is why you have members of the public wanting to have their cake and eat despite it being explained numerous times that we cannot have single market membership and control EU immigration.
.....and it starts again. I have to say, Corbyn has brought this all on himself.
In what way?
By thinking that he could take a line on Brexit that signifcantly departs from what many Labour MPs think.
Erm - have a look at the manifesto. It's the Labour Remainer Ultras who are in the wrong party.
No, Labour have been a pro-EU party for years and years. It's Corbyn who is in the wrong party - Labour is not a Hard Left organisation, yet he and McDonnell are both on the Hard Left.
The manifesto line on Brexit does not reflect what many Labour MPs think. It by and large reflects the thoughts of Corbyn and McDonnell.
Christ, where have you been for the last four weeks? Who the fuck do you think those people were voting for? It certainly wasn't Chuka Umunna.
Where have you been for the last four weeks?
Everything I've said is true. Why, you think Labour have become a party full of Hard Brexiteers because Corbyn and McDonnell are leading them?
You think all Labour voters are Hard Brexiteers, do you? Think again.
You said "Labour is not a Hard Left organisation". Oh yes it is.
In many respects, it is. But have a look at its immigration policy, and its position on policing, security and related matters. It's pretty hard right on those.
I assume on this scale the Tories would be to the right of Genghis Khan?
Well I never got to read Ghenghis's Manifesto but on the two named issues, they would certainly be to the left of Labour.
I wonder how many of those at Glasto singing his name realise this?
Not many.
But what about the REMAIN Tories in places like Canterbury who went for Jezz this time?
They must have realized Jezza was for LEAVE (in fact he'd have been for "don't go in" before he was for "come out") longer than pretty much anyone currently in public life, including Farage...
And if you asked them would they accept a possibility of a drop in living standards and higher taxes in order to lower immigration, I wonder what they'd say.
People (again, Leavers and a hell of a lot of Remainers) won't accept that would be a consequence. They may be right about that, they may be wrong, but it doesn't change that it would be a politically-suicidal position for Labour to take.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
I wonder how many of those at Glasto singing his name realise this?
Not many.
But what about the REMAIN Tories in places like Canterbury who went for Jezz this time?
They must have realized Jezza was for LEAVE (in fact he'd have been for "don't go in" before he was for "come out") longer than pretty much anyone currently in public life, including Farage...
As I said a day or so before the GE and since, May managed to lose massive support among the 35-50 year olds. Although the naive youngsters certainly boosted Labour score (I believe by 2-3%), what ensured May didn't get a good majority was that massive middled aged bracket where she went from super popular to toxic.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
Link to these questions? And did the questions explicitly say that a "soft Brexit" would involve no changes to immigration? (By which I mean questions where they explicitly used the term "immigration", rather than "freedom of movement" -- if my mum is any guide, a lot of people interpret the latter as meaning the right to go on holiday in Europe without excessive Customs checks, rather than the right to settle/work somewhere permanently.)
And if you asked them would they accept a possibility of a drop in living standards and higher taxes in order to lower immigration, I wonder what they'd say.
People (again, Leavers and a hell of a lot of Remainers) won't accept that would be a consequence. They may be right about that, they may be wrong, but it doesn't change that it would be a politically-suicidal position for Labour to take.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
I've already addressed the LD point in a previous post.
They may not accept that as a conscequence now, but if it happens they'll have no choice to. And then they'll be the first people to get upset about it.
Right now Labour's position is terrible politically. May have been great in the short-term, but is hugely problematic in terms of party unity long-term, which is was always going to be.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
I believe that democratic decision has been made and I'm not in favour of cancelling Brexit. Don't think that just because someone respects the vote that they desire a Hard off the cliff edge Brexit. Even some of the Leavers on this site don't want that.
Corbyn reassured Kippers, and that's what got them on board - Remainers were not looking for such 'reassurance'.
There is no consensus in this country on what kind of Brexit we should have.
Sorry, but in my view, the public would consider that your preferred way forward would be "cancelling Brexit" to all intents and purposes -- although I don't think most people would have a clue what "the Single Market" was if you said it to them, most people do think controls on immigration are a non-negotiable part of Brexit, which staying in the SM would seem to preclude.
And a lot of Remain voters certainly were looking for reassurance - loads of them were citing a concern that Labour would overturn Brexit in the first couple of weeks of the campaign as a reason why they felt they couldn't vote for the party, even if they did vote Remain. And if you don't trust my anecdotes, there's been a fair few polls from YouGov and the like which have put the number of people who want to overturn Brexit at about 20-25%.
My preferred way is membership of either the single market or the customs union.
As I showed in my previous link, many members of the public say that they support single market membership so they certainly don't see it as 'cancelling Brexit.' They just believe that you can hold two opposing positions at once.
In regard to 'reassurances' - I was using that in the context of Hard Brexit, not no Brexit at all. But in any case, I wouldn't correlate your ancedotes with polls you've mentioned. If I was asked by pollster 'would I want to overturn Brexit' I would say no - that doesn't mean that I was looking for reassurances from Labour that they wouldn't overturn Brexit.
Why do you want to be in the single market? Obviously we want to have tariff free trade with the single market but why would we want to be in it?
If we are in it we are bound by all of its rules and regulations. We have to make them UK law. We can be taken to court and fined if we don't. We allow people who we don't elect and cannot remove to make our laws. Why would we want to do that? It's a genuine question. I can understand the argument for being in the EU but being out the EU and still being bound by the single market is probably worse than low level tariffs.
You said "Labour is not a Hard Left organisation". Oh yes it is.
No it is not.
Corbyn and McDonnell don't have controls over Labour's internal structures just yet....
'Yet' being the operative word.
My view is that Corbyn doesn't want to be PM; or at least he didn't before the last GE. His task is to alter the party to make it hard, if not impossible, for a centrist Blairite to come to power again. He'll then hand over to a leftist who is more electable.
However I think Glastonbury makes it clear that it's all gone to his head, poor chap. He's been an MP long enough to realise that such mass adulation soon turns to anger and hatred.
(Godwin alert)
Glastonbury: the 21st century Nuremberg Rally for losers. With Corbyn as Adolf and Jon Snow as Goebbels. Instead of massed ranks of blonde lookalikes, lots of middle-class numpties standing in mud as they tweet to their two equally vacuous followers.
(Do you get the impression I dislike Glastonbury? Who can blame me: they allowed Radiohead in this year).
I actually like Glastonbury - sorry Josias!
But I hated how it became a Corbyn worshipping rally this year. Wouldn't be remotely surprised if half the people who would have called Leavers 'racist' are now defending Corbyn's position on Brexit. A shambles.
I agree it's going to his head. I think him allegedly saying 'I'm going to be PM in six months' would have united Tories, more than anything else.
I wonder how many of those at Glasto singing his name realise this?
I wonder how many Tory Breixteers realise they've been doing the bidding of the hard left all along?
Brexit isn't exclusively a hard left endeavour.
If only Maggie were still around to hand out copies of the Road to Serfdom the right might understand the extent to which their witless obsessions have made advancing the cause of the hard left into a shared endeavour.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
I wonder how many of those at Glasto singing his name realise this?
I wonder how many Tory Breixteers realise they've been doing the bidding of the hard left all along?
Brexit isn't exclusively a hard left endeavour.
If only Maggie were still around to hand out copies of the Road to Serfdom the right might understand the extent to which their witless obsessions have made advancing the cause of the hard left into a shared endeavour.
Although it looks as though Brexit is pretty much guaranteed thanks to their unusual bedfellows. You must be bitterly disappointed.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Corbyn's lukewarm attitude during the referendum was not much different from May's. In fact, both nominally supported staying in.
Ironically, Corbyn's point on workers rights should make him a Remainer, the very same reason why I am a Remainer.
In the UK, the EU workers rights can be changed by any government by a single majority. If we were within the EU, a British government could not unilaterally change those rights.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
Link to these questions? And did the questions explicitly say that a "soft Brexit" would involve no changes to immigration? (By which I mean questions where they explicitly used the term "immigration", rather than "freedom of movement" -- if my mum is any guide, a lot of people interpret the latter as meaning the right to go on holiday in Europe without excessive Customs checks, rather than the right to settle/work somewhere permanently.)
Asking 'would you stay in the single market' amounts to essentially asking for a Soft Brexit, and you weren't questioning that even though that question doesn't explictly say a 'soft brexit.' Although the polls do mention a soft and hard Brexit.
The public believes it can get a Soft Brexit and controls on immigration from the link I posted previously, which is why they can support immigration controls and SMM.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Ironically, Corbyn's point on workers rights should make him a Remainer, the very same reason why I am a Remainer.
In the UK, the EU workers rights can be changed by any government by a single majority. If we were within the EU, a British government could not unilaterally change those rights.
He's planning to avoid that risk by eliminating all opposition once he takes over.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Corbyn's lukewarm attitude during the referendum was not much different from May's. In fact, both nominally supported staying in.
Ironically, Corbyn's point on workers rights should make him a Remainer, the very same reason why I am a Remainer.
In the UK, the EU workers rights can be changed by any government by a single majority. If we were within the EU, a British government could not unilaterally change those rights.
I can recall one time during the whole campaign when someone used the term "Single Market" on the doorstep.
Unprompted, I assume? All sides were saying that a vote to leave would mean leaving the single market.
I meant during the election campaign just gone. People whatever their views were either seemingly not aware what it was, or didn't care one way or the other - regardless of how they voted in the referendum.
And yes, I meant unprompted (generally, when the EU came up we would just say that Corbyn respected the result and would deliver it, then move the conversation onto something else as quickly as possible!)
I wonder how many of those at Glasto singing his name realise this?
I wonder how many Tory Breixteers realise they've been doing the bidding of the hard left all along?
Brexit isn't exclusively a hard left endeavour.
If only Maggie were still around to hand out copies of the Road to Serfdom the right might understand the extent to which their witless obsessions have made advancing the cause of the hard left into a shared endeavour.
Although it looks as though Brexit is pretty much guaranteed thanks to their unusual bedfellows. You must be bitterly disappointed.
A soft Brexit amendment would have offered a potential way out for the government. If that's off the table then the pressure will only mount.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
I wonder how many of those at Glasto singing his name realise this?
I wonder how many Tory Breixteers realise they've been doing the bidding of the hard left all along?
Brexit isn't exclusively a hard left endeavour.
If only Maggie were still around to hand out copies of the Road to Serfdom the right might understand the extent to which their witless obsessions have made advancing the cause of the hard left into a shared endeavour.
Although it looks as though Brexit is pretty much guaranteed thanks to their unusual bedfellows. You must be bitterly disappointed.
A soft Brexit amendment would have offered a potential way out for the government. If that's off the table then the pressure will only mount.
This current government is rather adept at U turns. Or have you not been paying attention?
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Oh so nasty! You horrid name caller!
Fascist is becoming so overused it too will soon lose its meaning.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Strange. I have always thought the term fascist was far more applicable to.people like you who seek to undermine democracy in the name of your utterly warped view of the greater good. All that rubbish about a bunch of sticks bound together being stronger than a single stick.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Oh so nasty! You horrid name caller!
Fascist is becoming so overused it too will soon lose its meaning.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Do you know what the single market and customs union are?
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Corbyn's lukewarm attitude during the referendum was not much different from May's. In fact, both nominally supported staying in.
Ironically, Corbyn's point on workers rights should make him a Remainer, the very same reason why I am a Remainer.
In the UK, the EU workers rights can be changed by any government by a single majority. If we were within the EU, a British government could not unilaterally change those rights.
No, but changes could be forced on us by QMV.
But the chances of that happening is infinitesimally small. 19 countries would have to agree to change policies they had previously agreed to.
In the UK, any majority government, even with 37% of the votes, say, could change it.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Oh so nasty! You horrid name caller!
Fascist is becoming so overused it too will soon lose its meaning.
It's like "racist" and other similar words. Overused until they've become debased and valueless as a concept.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Do you know what the single market and customs union are?
They are mythical bodies that no advanced economy could possibly survive outside of.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
How would we have tariff free access if we are not in the single market ?
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Strange. I have always thought the term fascist was far more applicable to.people like you who seek to undermine democracy in the name of your utterly warped view of the greater good. All that rubbish about a bunch of sticks bound together being stronger than a single stick.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Strange. I have always thought the term fascist was far more applicable to.people like you who seek to undermine democracy in the name of your utterly warped view of the greater good. All that rubbish about a bunch of sticks bound together being stronger than a single stick.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Oh so nasty! You horrid name caller!
Fascist is becoming so overused it too will soon lose its meaning.
It's like "racist" and other similar words. Overused until they've become debased and valueless as a concept.
Fascist, trotsky, maoist, commie all overused on this site imho. Wouldn't agree that 'racist' fits in the same category inasmuch as a) I haven't seen it used much but sadly b) I think racist behaviour and thinking, often subconscious, is more prevalent anyway.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
But we can negotiate a continuation of our membership of the single market?
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
But we can negotiate a continuation of our membership of the single market?
Yes, the A50 can be revoked. Some of us are dreamers !!
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
But we can negotiate a continuation of our membership of the single market?
Yes.
I believe the EU will be more receptive to that then a separate free trade deal.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
But we can negotiate a continuation of our membership of the single market?
Yes.
I believe the EU will be more receptive to that then a separate 'free trade' deal.
They themselves have said there is no such thing as 'hard brexit' or 'soft brexit'. There is only brexit. I take that to mean we can't be half in and half out.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
But we can negotiate a continuation of our membership of the single market?
Yes, the A50 can be revoked. Some of us are dreamers !!
Why do you want to be in the single market? Obviously we want to have tariff free trade with the single market but why would we want to be in it?
If we are in it we are bound by all of its rules and regulations. We have to make them UK law. We can be taken to court and fined if we don't. We allow people who we don't elect and cannot remove to make our laws. Why would we want to do that? It's a genuine question. I can understand the argument for being in the EU but being out the EU and still being bound by the single market is probably worse than low level tariffs.
Essentially it's damage limitation. In a connected world the EU is the only thing worth being connected to in Europe. It's our main market accounting for about half or exports and not amenable to substitution. We don't sell more elsewhere just because we're disconnected from the EU. The opposite in fact.It's better being part of the Single Market than not being so. In our circumstances the disadvantages you point to will kick in. Those disadvantages can be removed by staying as full members of the EU, but we voted against that. If we reject the best option we have to choose amongst worse options. Not being in the SM is worse again than being in it. It was stupid to hold a referendum where you don't choose between alternatives. The Leave campaign made sure not to present a plan or direction because it would be apparent that remaining was better than any particular likely alternative.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
But we can negotiate a continuation of our membership of the single market?
Yes.
I believe the EU will be more receptive to that then a separate 'free trade' deal.
They themselves have said there is no such thing as 'hard brexit' or 'soft brexit'. There is only brexit. I take that to mean we can't be half in and half out.
Isn't that what Norway and Switzerland have achieved? Trouble is it wouldn't satisfy the Brexit head-bangers in the Tory party, so May daren't go down that route.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
Link to these questions? And did the questions explicitly say that a "soft Brexit" would involve no changes to immigration? (By which I mean questions where they explicitly used the term "immigration", rather than "freedom of movement" -- if my mum is any guide, a lot of people interpret the latter as meaning the right to go on holiday in Europe without excessive Customs checks, rather than the right to settle/work somewhere permanently.)
Asking 'would you stay in the single market' amounts to essentially asking for a Soft Brexit, and you weren't questioning that even though that question doesn't explictly say a 'soft brexit.' Although the polls do mention a soft and hard Brexit.
The public believes it can get a Soft Brexit and controls on immigration from the link I posted previously, which is why they can support immigration controls and SMM.
Again, I'm afraid I don't think that simply asking people "do you want to stay in the Single Market" is valid evidence, unless the question specifically points out of the negative trade-offs of that in terms of immigration, since my view is most people wouldn't automatically be aware that that's what the SM entails.
But while we're talking about Survation polls, here's one that shows only 6% of Labour's voters said that Brexit was the #1 issue (though it was the #1 issue for significantly more Tory and LibDem voters), on pg.15. That finding hardly supports the idea that the main reason a lot of people were voting Labour was to stop a "hard Brexit":
Sky news business has just interviewed Dr Marcus C Kerber, professor of political economy technology of the uni of Berlin and until march the director general of Germany's CBI. He said that in Brexit Germany was losing a very firm ally and without GB, Germany is on it's own maybe with the Netherlands, Finland and Austria perhaps they have to challenge the national and German policy on this. There is great concern that it will harm German industry and British Industry so everyone is looking for British pragmatism to find a solution that respects the vote of the British people but does not separate the UK from continental europe, because whatever happens the UK remains a part of Europe and we should pay tribute to these special ties.
He condemned the whole political class who said they have got rid of the Brits and they are going to make them pay. He said the sums mentioned by Barnier were ridiculous . Germany remains a strategic ally of UK and will try to mitigate these claims which illustrate this battle for revenge by the EU
He referred to Henry Kissinger, the wise man of transatlantic relations by saying
'lets try to make the most of it by maintaining good relations between the UK and Germany in particular, anything less than that is not real politic'
And that will be the shout from business throughout the EU who simply will knock sense into the eurocrats if they do not listen
It's certainly true that there are drawbacks to being in the single market without directly influencing the rules. But if the EU suddenly changed their mind, realised that "German cars prosecco exports etc", and offered us EEA without Freedom of Movement, how many people would still reject it then?
The real problem with the single market is nothing to do with the single market, it's the FoM that comes with it. Yet there are measures we can take to adapt freedom of movement within the single market that would represent a change, and it would certainly work at least on a short term basis while we decide how we want to move forward as a country.
I'm off to Paris on business later in the year. And it's not the friendly Paris of old.
This app looks really useful. It lets you know if you're entering a No Go Zone and if you're in danger of attack and/or sexual assault in the more violent Islamist gang-run parts..
One review: “It is an indispensable application for anyone who thinks that the cultural ‘enrichment’ of non-natives is not compatible with our way of life.”
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
They aren't. What's more, Labour won votes by keeping leavers on board AND by sweeping up many remainers. Labour's voter base is now much more remainer than leaver. So it would absolutely foolish for Corbyn to turn his back entirely on the remainers who accept the result but also want a softer brexit. He needs a Brexit which offers something to everyone, much like he did in the campaign, and the only option there is a soft brexit. Theresa May literally just made the same mistake of taking remainers for granted. He really should have left it as a free vote and kicked the can further down the road.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
Why not? We run a huge deficit with the EU. Tariff free trade saves them a lot more money than it saves us. But the sums involved are larger for us than any one EU country and the risks to our economy make it a good deal. It looks win win to me.
Why do you want to be in the single market? Obviously we want to have tariff free trade with the single market but why would we want to be in it?
If we are in it we are bound by all of its rules and regulations. We have to make them UK law. We can be taken to court and fined if we don't. We allow people who we don't elect and cannot remove to make our laws. Why would we want to do that? It's a genuine question. I can understand the argument for being in the EU but being out the EU and still being bound by the single market is probably worse than low level tariffs.
Essentially it's damage limitation. In a connected world the EU is the only thing worth being connected to in Europe. It's our main market accounting for about half or exports and not amenable to substitution. We don't sell more elsewhere just because we're disconnected from the EU. The opposite in fact.It's better being part of the Single Market than not being so. In our circumstances the disadvantages you point to will kick in. Those disadvantages can be removed by staying as full members of the EU, but we voted against that. If we reject the best option we have to choose amongst worse options. Not being in the SM is worse again than being in it. It was stupid to hold a referendum where you don't choose between alternatives. The Leave campaign made sure not to present a plan or direction because it would be apparent that remaining was better than any particular likely alternative.
We can still be connected to the EU through a trade agreement without being linked to the political side of things. They want to continue down the path of ever closer union, which I don't think is a view shared by many in Britain.
It's certainly true that there are drawbacks to being in the single market without directly influencing the rules. But if the EU suddenly changed their mind, realised that "German cars prosecco exports etc", and offered us EEA without Freedom of Movement, how many people would still reject it then?
The real problem with the single market is nothing to do with the single market, it's the FoM that comes with it. Yet there are measures we can take to adapt freedom of movement within the single market that would represent a change, and it would certainly work at least on a short term basis while we decide how we want to move forward as a country.
"The real problem with the single market is nothing to do with the single market, it's the FoM that comes with it."
Spot on. Apart from hard nutters, most would want to remain in the SM and in the CU. But, the hatred of the foreigner overwhelms everything else. So much so, some people will take savage cuts in living standards to achieve that.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
Link to these questions? And did the questions explicitly say that a "soft Brexit" would involve no changes to immigration? (By which I mean questions where they explicitly used the term "immigration", rather than "freedom of movement" -- if my mum is any guide, a lot of people interpret the latter as meaning the right to go on holiday in Europe without excessive Customs checks, rather than the right to settle/work somewhere permanently.)
Asking 'would you stay in the single market' amounts to essentially asking for a Soft Brexit, and you weren't questioning that even though that question doesn't explictly say a 'soft brexit.' Although the polls do mention a soft and hard Brexit.
The public believes it can get a Soft Brexit and controls on immigration from the link I posted previously, which is why they can support immigration controls and SMM.
Again, I'm afraid I don't think that simply asking people "do you want to stay in the Single Market" is valid evidence, unless the question specifically points out of the negative trade-offs of that in terms of immigration, since my view is most people wouldn't automatically be aware that that's what the SM entails.
But while we're talking about Survation polls, here's one that shows only 6% of Labour's voters said that Brexit was the #1 issue (though it was the #1 issue for significantly more Tory and LibDem voters), on pg.15:
But then you cannot take support for cutting immigration as gold either. People may not understand the intricacies of the single market (and they don't, I'm sure many on this board including myself don't), but then it is also much easier to criticise immigration in an abstract concept than when you really get down to details (should there be fewer foreign NHS nurses, would you want to pay more for you plumber, how many should there be etc).
Isn't that what Norway and Switzerland have achieved? Trouble is it wouldn't satisfy the Brexit head-bangers in the Tory party, so May daren't go down that route.
They were never in the EU to start with, so the situation isn't really the same. The UK would rightly be rebuffed if it tired a 'have our cake and eat it' approach.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
Link to these questions? And did the questions explicitly say that a "soft Brexit" would involve no changes to immigration? (By which I mean questions where they explicitly used the term "immigration", rather than "freedom of movement" -- if my mum is any guide, a lot of people interpret the latter as meaning the right to go on holiday in Europe without excessive Customs checks, rather than the right to settle/work somewhere permanently.)
Asking 'would you stay in the single market' amounts to essentially asking for a Soft Brexit, and you weren't questioning that even though that question doesn't explictly say a 'soft brexit.' Although the polls do mention a soft and hard Brexit.
The public believes it can get a Soft Brexit and controls on immigration from the link I posted previously, which is why they can support immigration controls and SMM.
Again, I'm afraid I don't think that simply asking people "do you want to stay in the Single Market" is valid evidence, unless the question specifically points out of the negative trade-offs of that in terms of immigration, since my view is most people wouldn't automatically be aware that that's what the SM entails.
But while we're talking about Survation polls, here's one that shows only 6% of Labour's voters said that Brexit was the #1 issue (though it was the #1 issue for significantly more Tory and LibDem voters), on pg.15:
And I could also argue that questions on immigration controls isn't 'valid' evidence as they rarely point out the possible negative economic concequences of a Hard Brexit.
If you want what you call 'valid evidence' where both SMM and immigration controls are mentioned, then I've already provided that to you via the previous Guardian link, which again found that my views weren't 'niche'.
Re your last point: doesn't that contradict your argument it was Corbyn's position on Brexit which 'gave Labour's polices' a hearing, given that according to that poll, not many cared to begin with?
.....and it starts again. I have to say, Corbyn has brought this all on himself.
In what way?
By thinking that he could take a line on Brexit that signifcantly departs from what many Labour MPs think.
Erm - have a look at the manifesto. It's the Labour Remainer Ultras who are in the wrong party.
No, Labour have been a pro-EU party for years and years. It's Corbyn who is in the wrong party - Labour is not a Hard Left organisation, yet he and McDonnell are both on the Hard Left.
The manifesto line on Brexit does not reflect what many Labour MPs think. It by and large reflects the thoughts of Corbyn and McDonnell.
Corbyn was being unrealistic if he thought that all Labour MPs were going to stick to his line on Brexit.
And many of it's voters.
Many of Labour's voters are also Remainers. That's the trouble - in accquiring some of the Kipper vote as well as Labour Leavers there is now a coalition between them and Remainers that Corbyn has to negotiate.
Having been on the doorsteps a fair bit during the campaign, I can assure you that most people whether Remainers or Leavers think a democratic decision has been made, and that Labour needs to respect it by supporting a proper Brexit. It was only because of Corbyn reassuring people that that was the case in the early weeks of the campaign that the rest of Labour's popular policies even got a hearing.
You've craftily slipped in the word "proper" there. Of course there is, quite rightly, a general belief that the referendum result should be respected. But there's no mandate for a "proper" Brexit, only for a minimum Brexit.
Sky news business has just interviewed Dr Marcus C Kerber, professor of political economy technology of the uni of Berlin and until march the director general of Germany's CBI. He said that in Brexit Germany was losing a very firm ally and without GB, Germany is on it's own maybe with the Netherlands, Finland and Austria perhaps we haveto challenge the national and German policy on this. There is great concern that it will harm German industry and British Industry so everyone is looking for British pragmatism to find a solution that respects the vote of the British people but does not separate the UK from continental europe, because whatever happens the UK remains a part of Europe and we should pay tribute to these special ties.
He condemned the whole political class who said they have got rid of the Brits and they are going to make them pay. He said the sums mentioned by Barnier were riduculous . Germany remains a strategic ally of UK and will try to mitigate these riducolous claims which illustrate this battle for revenge by the EU
He referred to Henry Kissinger, the wise man of transatlantic relations by saying
'lets try to make the most of it by maintaining good relations between the UK and Germany in particular, anything less than that is not real politic '
What a sensible chap and sentiment from the sound of it. Is anyone like Juncker or Barnier or Merkel paying any attention though? Free trade no FOM - sorted (!)
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
Link to these questions? And did the questions explicitly say that a "soft Brexit" would involve no changes to immigration? (By which I mean questions where they explicitly used the term "immigration", rather than "freedom of movement" -- if my mum is any guide, a lot of people interpret the latter as meaning the right to go on holiday in Europe without excessive Customs checks, rather than the right to settle/work somewhere permanently.)
Asking 'would you stay in the single market' amounts to essentially asking for a Soft Brexit, and you weren't questioning that even though that question doesn't explictly say a 'soft brexit.' Although the polls do mention a soft and hard Brexit.
The public believes it can get a Soft Brexit and controls on immigration from the link I posted previously, which is why they can support immigration controls and SMM.
Again, I'm afraid I don't think that simply asking people "do you want to stay in the Single Market" is valid evidence, unless the question specifically points out of the negative trade-offs of that in terms of immigration, since my view is most people wouldn't automatically be aware that that's what the SM entails.
But while we're talking about Survation polls, here's one that shows only 6% of Labour's voters said that Brexit was the #1 issue (though it was the #1 issue for significantly more Tory and LibDem voters), on pg.15. That finding hardly supports the idea that the main reason a lot of people were voting Labour was to stop a "hard Brexit":
Sky news business has just interviewed Dr Marcus C Kerber, professor of political economy technology of the uni of Berlin and until march the director general of Germany's CBI. He said that in Brexit Germany was losing a very firm ally and without GB, Germany is on it's own maybe with the Netherlands, Finland and Austria perhaps they have to challenge the national and German policy on this. There is great concern that it will harm German industry and British Industry so everyone is looking for British pragmatism to find a solution that respects the vote of the British people but does not separate the UK from continental europe, because whatever happens the UK remains a part of Europe and we should pay tribute to these special ties.
He condemned the whole political class who said they have got rid of the Brits and they are going to make them pay. He said the sums mentioned by Barnier were ridiculous . Germany remains a strategic ally of UK and will try to mitigate these claims which illustrate this battle for revenge by the EU
He referred to Henry Kissinger, the wise man of transatlantic relations by saying
'lets try to make the most of it by maintaining good relations between the UK and Germany in particular, anything less than that is not real politic'
And that will be the shout from business throughout the EU who simply will knock sense into the eurocrats if they do not listen
Isn't that what Norway and Switzerland have achieved? Trouble is it wouldn't satisfy the Brexit head-bangers in the Tory party, so May daren't go down that route.
They were never in the EU to start with, so the situation isn't really the same. The UK would rightly be rebuffed if it tired a 'have our cake and eat it' approach.
You think? If we asked to join the EEA we'd be rebuffed? I think there would be a huge sigh of relief in Europe and they would bite our hand off. Aint gonna happen though because May and Davis won't go down that route.
Poor Lib Dems. If Remainers knew Corbyn was so much an adherent of Brexit, many would not have voted Labour.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
Beginning to think? Did you miss Corbyn during the EU ref?
Dislike of the EU brings together unlikely bedfellows, loved by their followers, loathed by the centrists
Benn and Powell Corbyn and Farage
When a fascist tweets to support Corbyn, he should be worried.
Strange. I have always thought the term fascist was far more applicable to.people like you who seek to undermine democracy in the name of your utterly warped view of the greater good. All that rubbish about a bunch of sticks bound together being stronger than a single stick.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
Don't know why you're bringing up the LDs stance when their stance and mine aren't the same. They don't want Brexit at all, and they want a Second ref. I want a Soft Brexit. The only reason I voted LD was because I didn't like either Corbyn or TMay.
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
.
Exactly. Corbyn making the same mistakes TMay did:
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you - Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay - Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
Why would we hit a wall if we have tariff free access?
I don't see this govt being able to successfully negotiate that, tbqf.
Why not? We run a huge deficit with the EU. Tariff free trade saves them a lot more money than it saves us. But the sums involved are larger for us than any one EU country and the risks to our economy make it a good deal. It looks win win to me.
Why do we have to read this garbage continually ? The EU exports to the UK is 3% of their GDP. For the UK, it is 10% of our GDP.
The fact that 3% of the EU GDP is larger than 10% of our GDP is neither here nor there. It is a very small proportion of their economy.
And, it also does not mean their exports will immediately stop on Brexit. The EU [ particularly, Germany ] successfully export to the whole world , notably, China, the USA etc. They still will keep on exporting to the UK.
The UK's exports to the rest of the world is puny compared to that of Germany, Italy or France.
Why do you want to be in the single market? Obviously we want to have tariff free trade with the single market but why would we want to be in it?
If we are in it we are bound by all of its rules and regulations. We have to make them UK law. We can be taken to court and fined if we don't. We allow people who we don't elect and cannot remove to make our laws. Why would we want to do that? It's a genuine question. I can understand the argument for being in the EU but being out the EU and still being bound by the single market is probably worse than low level tariffs.
Essentially it's damage limitation. In a connected world the EU is the only thing worth being connected to in Europe. It's our main market accounting for about half or exports and not amenable to substitution. We don't sell more elsewhere just because we're disconnected from the EU. The opposite in fact.It's better being part of the Single Market than not being so. In our circumstances the disadvantages you point to will kick in. Those disadvantages can be removed by staying as full members of the EU, but we voted against that. If we reject the best option we have to choose amongst worse options. Not being in the SM is worse again than being in it. It was stupid to hold a referendum where you don't choose between alternatives. The Leave campaign made sure not to present a plan or direction because it would be apparent that remaining was better than any particular likely alternative.
We can still be connected to the EU through a trade agreement without being linked to the political side of things. They want to continue down the path of ever closer union, which I don't think is a view shared by many in Britain.
Not in the same way and not soon. If we want continuity we need to sign up quickly to the EEA. I'm not a booster for the EEA. I don't actually think it will work for us. I agree with David on the problems he's listed. But the alternative is the cliff edge. My problem since June last year is that it is clear to me that the only practical solution for the UK if we want to maintain our lifestyles is to remain in the EU as full members. But the vote was valid even if the referendum itself was stupid. The vote must be respected.
Isn't that what Norway and Switzerland have achieved? Trouble is it wouldn't satisfy the Brexit head-bangers in the Tory party, so May daren't go down that route.
They were never in the EU to start with, so the situation isn't really the same. The UK would rightly be rebuffed if it tired a 'have our cake and eat it' approach.
You think? If we asked to join the EEA we'd be rebuffed? I think there would be a huge sigh of relief in Europe and they would bite our hand off. Aint gonna happen though because May and Davis won't go down that route.
If the UK joined the EEA it would have to accept freedom of movement.
It really doesn't matter what the Tories do. Labour will always be a shambles under their current leadership. I was told a year ago by someone who would know that Corbyn had the leadership qualities of a grasshopper. Theresa's thin majority is giving us all a laugh but it will never be exploited under Labour's current leadership.
Comments
It's the WWC that Labour used to represent, remember them?
Rightly or wrongly, it is just seen as a basic point of democracy to everyone who wasn't a hardcore EU supporter.
https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status/880478065083777025
https://twitter.com/Nigel_Farage/status/880477525306216448
As I showed in my previous link, many members of the public say that they support single market membership so they certainly don't see it as 'cancelling Brexit.' They just believe that you can hold two opposing positions at once.
In regard to 'reassurances' - I was using that in the context of Hard Brexit, not no Brexit at all. But in any case, I wouldn't correlate your ancedotes with polls you've mentioned. If I was asked by pollster 'would I want to overturn Brexit' I would say no - that doesn't mean that I was looking for reassurances from Labour that they wouldn't overturn Brexit.
Labour "rebels" dominated by London, Manchester and Liverpool MPs. Noticeably very few from Birmingham.
Interestingly, I was at a gathering yesterday and Chris Bryant was effusive in his praise for Corbyn. Today he voted for Umunna's amendment.
Of course the country would be in deep shit by then, but that's looking increasingly inevitable anyway.
My view is that Corbyn doesn't want to be PM; or at least he didn't before the last GE. His task is to alter the party to make it hard, if not impossible, for a centrist Blairite to come to power again. He'll then hand over to a leftist who is more electable.
However I think Glastonbury makes it clear that it's all gone to his head, poor chap. He's been an MP long enough to realise that such mass adulation soon turns to anger and hatred.
(Godwin alert)
Glastonbury: the 21st century Nuremberg Rally for losers. With Corbyn as Adolf and Jon Snow as Goebbels. Instead of massed ranks of blonde lookalikes, lots of middle-class numpties standing in mud as they tweet to their two equally vacuous followers.
(Do you get the impression I dislike Glastonbury? Who can blame me: they allowed Radiohead in this year).
I'm not asking Labour to run on a ticket of staying in the customs union and the single market - just one of them, at the very least.
If Kippers want to go back to voting UKIP (unlikely to go Tory given that they didn't in this GE) that's fine. Labour said they believed in a jobs first Brexit - they need to put their money where their mouth is.
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
http://www.conservativehome.com/leftwatch/2017/06/corbyn-whips-labour-mps-against-continuing-single-market-membership-and-begins-sacking-front-bench-rebels.html
There is no consensus on what kind of Brexit we should have, which is why you have members of the public wanting to have their cake and eat despite it being explained numerous times that we cannot have single market membership and control EU immigration.
But what about the REMAIN Tories in places like Canterbury who went for Jezz this time?
They must have realized Jezza was for LEAVE (in fact he'd have been for "don't go in" before he was for "come out") longer than pretty much anyone currently in public life, including Farage...
And I have to ask, if you're so sure that your preferred politics is a winner, then why did the LibDems do so badly this time? You're perfectly entitled to your own views, but do you not think those views seem to be even more niche than the dreaded Corbynistas' political views?
A recent Survation poll showed results that were sympathetic to a 'Soft Brexit' BTW, so I don't think my views are *that* niche.
Many believed Corbyn's acceptance of Brexit was lukewarm and whilst Labour technically accepted Brexit , they would work towards close relationship with the EU.
I am beginning to think the lukewarm attitude is more towards the EU. So did the Tories really need a pact with the nutters from NI.
They may not accept that as a conscequence now, but if it happens they'll have no choice to. And then they'll be the first people to get upset about it.
Right now Labour's position is terrible politically. May have been great in the short-term, but is hugely problematic in terms of party unity long-term, which is was always going to be.
If we are in it we are bound by all of its rules and regulations. We have to make them UK law. We can be taken to court and fined if we don't. We allow people who we don't elect and cannot remove to make our laws. Why would we want to do that? It's a genuine question. I can understand the argument for being in the EU but being out the EU and still being bound by the single market is probably worse than low level tariffs.
But I hated how it became a Corbyn worshipping rally this year. Wouldn't be remotely surprised if half the people who would have called Leavers 'racist' are now defending Corbyn's position on Brexit. A shambles.
I agree it's going to his head. I think him allegedly saying 'I'm going to be PM in six months' would have united Tories, more than anything else.
Even the terms "soft Brexit" and "hard Brexit" were barely ever used.
Ironically, Corbyn's point on workers rights should make him a Remainer, the very same reason why I am a Remainer.
In the UK, the EU workers rights can be changed by any government by a single majority. If we were within the EU, a British government could not unilaterally change those rights.
The public believes it can get a Soft Brexit and controls on immigration from the link I posted previously, which is why they can support immigration controls and SMM.
http://survation.com/latest-polls-indicate-majority-support-soft-brexit/
https://twitter.com/TSEofPB/status/876194220125671424
Benn and Powell
Corbyn and Farage
And yes, I meant unprompted (generally, when the EU came up we would just say that Corbyn respected the result and would deliver it, then move the conversation onto something else as quickly as possible!)
- Assuming voters have *no choice* but to vote for you
- Believing you can ignore all Remainers - yes, that really helped TMay
- Believing that you are destined to win and no one and nothing can stop you.
@DavidL I support SM membership because I don't want our economy to totally hit the wall when we leave. If we don't stay in the SMM, then at least stay in the customs union.
The verdict of her former colleagues on South Oxfordshire District Council on poor Andrea when she was a district councillor between 2003 and 2007.
Bunnco - Your Man on the Spot
In the UK, any majority government, even with 37% of the votes, say, could change it.
Overused until they've become debased and valueless as a concept.
La République En Marche?
Just my opinion, naturally.
I believe the EU will be more receptive to that then a separate free trade deal.
But while we're talking about Survation polls, here's one that shows only 6% of Labour's voters said that Brexit was the #1 issue (though it was the #1 issue for significantly more Tory and LibDem voters), on pg.15. That finding hardly supports the idea that the main reason a lot of people were voting Labour was to stop a "hard Brexit":
http://survation.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/Final-Post-Election-GMB-Tables-160617TOCH-1c0d0h5.pdf
He condemned the whole political class who said they have got rid of the Brits and they are going to make them pay. He said the sums mentioned by Barnier were ridiculous . Germany remains a strategic ally of UK and will try to mitigate these claims which illustrate this battle for revenge by the EU
He referred to Henry Kissinger, the wise man of transatlantic relations by saying
'lets try to make the most of it by maintaining good relations between the UK and Germany in particular, anything less than that is not real politic'
And that will be the shout from business throughout the EU who simply will knock sense into the eurocrats if they do not listen
The real problem with the single market is nothing to do with the single market, it's the FoM that comes with it. Yet there are measures we can take to adapt freedom of movement within the single market that would represent a change, and it would certainly work at least on a short term basis while we decide how we want to move forward as a country.
This app looks really useful. It lets you know if you're entering a No Go Zone and if you're in danger of attack and/or sexual assault in the more violent Islamist gang-run parts..
https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.nogozonefr&hl=fr
One review:
“It is an indispensable application for anyone who thinks that the cultural ‘enrichment’ of non-natives is not compatible with our way of life.”
Spot on. Apart from hard nutters, most would want to remain in the SM and in the CU. But, the hatred of the foreigner overwhelms everything else. So much so, some people will take savage cuts in living standards to achieve that.
If you want what you call 'valid evidence' where both SMM and immigration controls are mentioned, then I've already provided that to you via the previous Guardian link, which again found that my views weren't 'niche'.
Re your last point: doesn't that contradict your argument it was Corbyn's position on Brexit which 'gave Labour's polices' a hearing, given that according to that poll, not many cared to begin with?
NEW THREAD
He's not negotiating.
The fact that 3% of the EU GDP is larger than 10% of our GDP is neither here nor there. It is a very small proportion of their economy.
And, it also does not mean their exports will immediately stop on Brexit. The EU [ particularly, Germany ] successfully export to the whole world , notably, China, the USA etc. They still will keep on exporting to the UK.
The UK's exports to the rest of the world is puny compared to that of Germany, Italy or France.
https://www.thesun.co.uk/news/3913814/jeremy-corbyn-forced-to-sack-six-frontbenchers-after-they-rebel-against-him-in-bid-to-keep-uk-in-single-market/