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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It was the Question Time special exactly a week before polling

SystemSystem Posts: 12,260
edited June 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » It was the Question Time special exactly a week before polling day that sealed Theresa’s fate

Last night I watched again the Question Time leaders’ special with Corbyn and TMay from the University of York that took place on June 1st exactly a week before the election. On the night itself the PMs performance was well received particularly by right wing commentators.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
  • not_on_firenot_on_fire Posts: 4,449
    edited June 2017

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    Or told her she'd find the tree in Belfast.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
  • asjohnstoneasjohnstone Posts: 1,276
    Bit unfair on Yougov, they've also came out looking fairly good I think
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726
    The election was such a near-run thing that one can point to numerous single events that cost the Conservatives their majority.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    Yeah but, the Survation post debate survey also had a ludicrously high number of people who said they watched the whole thing.

    The 72% saying they had heard something was believable, the numbers saying they had watched it all were not.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345

    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?

    Well when you're up against Mother Superior Leadsome then you're going to look brilliant.
  • AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670

    Bit unfair on Yougov, they've also came out looking fairly good I think

    Their eve of election herding adjusment to their headline poll torpedoed them as brilliant as their mode was.
  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Bit unfair on Yougov, they've also came out looking fairly good I think

    YouGov would have done very well at GE17 if it had not changed its methodology for its final poll. It joined the pack. It takes a brave pollster to stick its neck out.

  • MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382

    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?

    Well when you're up against Mother Superior Leadsome then you're going to look brilliant.
    Please do not knock Andrea Leadsom. She is a mother
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Eagles, the letter was never mentioned. More importantly, neither was over 80% of the PLP signing a motion of no confidence in Corbyn.

    There was no promotion of Conservative economic success in reducing the deficit and maintaining, increasing, indeed, high employment. It was a shockingly poor campaign.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?

    Well when you're up against Mother Superior Leadsome then you're going to look brilliant.
    It was the PCP.
  • IanB2IanB2 Posts: 50,288
    Except that Survation themselves say that turnout modelling only played a relatively minor part in explaining the difference between their poll and the others?
  • CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 60,229
    UK and EU citizens rights proposals compared:

    http://brexitcentral.com/uk-eu-will-square-citizens-rights/
  • JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 43,919
    More trouble in Corbyn's favourite country:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-latin-america-40426642
  • OldKingColeOldKingCole Posts: 33,885
    I wonder how bad the situation would have been for the Tories if the QT had been before postal voting really got going?

    I suspect the Tories were ‘lucky’ it was after the postals.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062
    Sean_F said:

    The election was such a near-run thing that one can point to numerous single events that cost the Conservatives their majority.

    Theresa being crap....and again....and again....and again....and again
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?

    Well when you're up against Mother Superior Leadsome then you're going to look brilliant.
    It was the PCP.
    That narrowed it down to May and Leadsom. Poor judgement is more widespread.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345

    Mr. Eagles, the letter was never mentioned. More importantly, neither was over 80% of the PLP signing a motion of no confidence in Corbyn.

    There was no promotion of Conservative economic success in reducing the deficit and maintaining, increasing, indeed, high employment. It was a shockingly poor campaign.

    Mrs May wanted to own the election result, that's why she didn't focus on Osborne's golden economic legacy or use Sir John Major to nail Corbyn's lies on his contributions to the Northern
    Ireland peace process. It had to be all about her.

    To be fair to her, she does own the 2017 election result.
  • saddosaddo Posts: 534
    Letting the crazy Marx Brother's have a free run on their UK destroying economic policies was the biggest failure of all. Hence without the context, saying what she said about nurses pay sounded very poor.
    As we see today, the voters madness continues with the stated belief in more tax and spend on the rise.

    People may not have liked Osborne all that much, but he'd have massacred Labour on economics this time.
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Mr. Eagles, the letter was never mentioned. More importantly, neither was over 80% of the PLP signing a motion of no confidence in Corbyn.

    There was no promotion of Conservative economic success in reducing the deficit and maintaining, increasing, indeed, high employment. It was a shockingly poor campaign.

    Mrs May wanted to own the election result, that's why she didn't focus on Osborne's golden economic legacy or use Sir John Major to nail Corbyn's lies on his contributions to the Northern
    Ireland peace process. It had to be all about her.

    To be fair to her, she does own the 2017 election result.
    The Tories find her a convenient scapegoat, they do not want to face up to the facts of more widespread discontent and disconnect from the narrow Tory view of Britain.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    Conservative Cabinet Crackpot Coalition of Chaos Update :

    CCCCC - Day of Days - 0910 hrs.

    BREXIT news that Hammond, Davis and Johnson have spat out their dummies and thrown the toys out their prams has caused consternation at Mothercare as the iconic British company try to assess the damage of politicians acting like naughty infants would do to their brand.

    Reports suggest that"Spreadshit Phil" filled his nappy and demanded the widest possible access for British prams within a customs union. David Davis indicated that no toys were better that id less toys and Boris Johnson said that he wanted out now so that Conservatives could continue to eat other babies without interference from the European Court of Justice.

    The Prime Minister was challenged about the dummy problem and stated that she would speak to the rest of the Cabinet dummies as soon as possible.
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Eagles, indeed.

    Daft sod.
  • Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    The one exception to my otherwise perfect record of being wrong about this election was that I did say, on here, immediately after QT was that we had just seen a man adhering to his deeply held convictions when it would have paid him to disown them, and a woman not doing that.
  • RogerRoger Posts: 20,062

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924
    Of course there's a magic money tree.

    The only questions are who gets most shakes of it and who eventually pays for it.

    The answer to the first question is George Osborne and David Cameron plus pensioners in general.

    The answer to the second question is the young.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300
    From OP -- What wasn’t appreciated was that 72% of those sampled had said they’d had seen or heard something about the debate. This wasn’t an audience figure.

    Let me commend to OGH a useful site called politicalbetting.com which discussed this very point.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    saddo said:

    Letting the crazy Marx Brother's have a free run on their UK destroying economic policies was the biggest failure of all. Hence without the context, saying what she said about nurses pay sounded very poor.
    As we see today, the voters madness continues with the stated belief in more tax and spend on the rise.

    People may not have liked Osborne all that much, but he'd have massacred Labour on economics this time.

    Mrs May didn't want Phil Hammond to have a good election campaign because if he did, she couldn't sack him, so she locked him in a cupboard for the campaign and so the economy wasn't discussed during the campaign.

    I think Hammond would have massacred Labour on the economy if he had been given the opportunity.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    JackW said:

    Conservative Cabinet Crackpot Coalition of Chaos Update :

    If Mr Corbyn becomes PM would that mean he would in charge of the Chaos Cabinet of Crackpots Party - CCCP?

    :D


  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
  • AlastairMeeksAlastairMeeks Posts: 30,340
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    I've wondered about that letter. It was addressed to David Laws in his capacity of Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Yet David Cameron kept producing it out of his pocket. (Presumably David Cameron's version was a photocopy.)

    How did it cross party lines to end up in David Cameron's hands, even in a photocopied version? I have a feeling the answer to that question would tell us something about how the coalition government worked.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,988

    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?

    Wishful thinking, I think. She had done well at the Home Office and not getting into many scrapes (and largely getting into the right ones when she did), was seen as a significant positive: a safe pair of hands and all that. And indeed, she can do the business of government well. What wasn't foreseen was how bad she'd be at the politics and the PR of government and of party management; requirements that she'd avoided providing hostages to fortune on as Home Secretary by ducking out but which couldn't be avoided as leader.

    But in any case, what were the options? Boris is flaky and blustering; Osborne was tied to the Cameron project, austerity and the Remain Project Fear; Leadsom was grossly underqualified and proved within days her unsuitability; Gove is divisive and overly intellectual; Hammond might or might not be a male version of May but is uncharismatic and untested on the campaign trail. Indeed, the entire field of possibles all had significant question marks against them. At the time, May had fewer confirmed negatives which is why she won.
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    JackW said:

    Conservative Cabinet Crackpot Coalition of Chaos Update :

    If Mr Corbyn becomes PM would that mean he would in charge of the Chaos Cabinet of Crackpots Party - CCCP?

    :D


    Certainly not .... You can "P" off.

    Corbyn's Crazy Crackpot Co-operative of Chaos

    Up The Workers .. :smiley:

  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,367
    Yes, it was a very poor campaign by the Tories, but sometimes there's a mood around in the country for a change - no matter what.

    No one mentioned Venezuela and brought up the Corbynista's glowing tributes to it a year or so ago. And it probably wouldn't have mattered. I teased a Corbyn supporter about it a few weeks ago. "It's nothing to do with Venezuela," he said. "It's the oil price."
  • rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 57,892

    UK and EU citizens rights proposals compared:

    http://brexitcentral.com/uk-eu-will-square-citizens-rights/

    Good article.
  • david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,988
    CD13 said:

    Yes, it was a very poor campaign by the Tories, but sometimes there's a mood around in the country for a change - no matter what.

    [snip]

    Which there wasn't. The Tories massacred Labour in the local elections five weeks before the General. When there's a mood for change, you get the kind of local elections that we had in 1994-6 or 2008-9.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843

    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?

    Well when you're up against Mother Superior Leadsome then you're going to look brilliant.
    It was the PCP.
    That narrowed it down to May and Leadsom. Poor judgement is more widespread.
    Yes but go back to that leadership contest. There were 5 choices - Fox, May, Leadsom, Gove, Crabb, and Boris before he got shafted.

    Leadsom would have been so far over her head as PM she would have lost her honeymoon pretty quickly. Crabb was something of a nonentity. Fox is disgraced, and a headbanger. Gove is more unappealing than May, he rubs people the wrong way. Boris would have made us a complete laughing stock - look at how people reacted to him becoming foreign secretary. He is also incredibly divisive because of the EUref, not like his mayoral days.

    Despite everything, May was genuinely the best option on offer for the tories!
  • CD13CD13 Posts: 6,367
    Mr Herdson,

    Don't over-think. You should have chosen Pritti Patel. At least, she's easy on the eye.
  • Sean_FSean_F Posts: 37,726

    CD13 said:

    Yes, it was a very poor campaign by the Tories, but sometimes there's a mood around in the country for a change - no matter what.

    [snip]

    Which there wasn't. The Tories massacred Labour in the local elections five weeks before the General. When there's a mood for change, you get the kind of local elections that we had in 1994-6 or 2008-9.
    Polling probably overstated the Tory lead, but I don't doubt they truly had a big lead at the outset.
  • TheScreamingEaglesTheScreamingEagles Posts: 120,345
    Jon Snow faced calls for his resignation yesterday after it was claimed that he shouted “f*** the Tories” while dancing with students at Glastonbury.

    The veteran broadcaster, who issued a statement in response that did not deny the allegation, was criticised by a Conservative MP for espousing “extreme views” that were incompatible with an impartial interviewer.

    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/news/jon-snow-s-glastonbury-outburst-upsets-tories-rnszbkkt6?
  • PendduPenddu Posts: 265
    About one hour ago I logged on to Sky News to catch up, and first headlines were discussing the "Runners and Riders" in the Tory Leadership contest, and something about another politician dismissing the candidates so far.... I choked on my cornflakes and when I tried to acess first article it gave me an error message and then the main news page changed...

    Did anyone else see this? Am I going mad? Was this someone at Sky messing around or was site hacked???
  • foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?

    Wishful thinking, I think. She had done well at the Home Office and not getting into many scrapes (and largely getting into the right ones when she did), was seen as a significant positive: a safe pair of hands and all that. And indeed, she can do the business of government well. What wasn't foreseen was how bad she'd be at the politics and the PR of government and of party management; requirements that she'd avoided providing hostages to fortune on as Home Secretary by ducking out but which couldn't be avoided as leader.

    But in any case, what were the options? Boris is flaky and blustering; Osborne was tied to the Cameron project, austerity and the Remain Project Fear; Leadsom was grossly underqualified and proved within days her unsuitability; Gove is divisive and overly intellectual; Hammond might or might not be a male version of May but is uncharismatic and untested on the campaign trail. Indeed, the entire field of possibles all had significant question marks against them. At the time, May had fewer confirmed negatives which is why she won.
    I have always said that May's record at the Home Office was poor. The only reason she lasted was because the coalition fossilised reshuffles. What did she achieve there apart from the highest non EU immigration for decades and insulting the police federation*?

    *Something that came back to bite her in the campaign.
  • ParistondaParistonda Posts: 1,843
    CD13 said:

    Yes, it was a very poor campaign by the Tories, but sometimes there's a mood around in the country for a change - no matter what.

    No one mentioned Venezuela and brought up the Corbynista's glowing tributes to it a year or so ago. And it probably wouldn't have mattered. I teased a Corbyn supporter about it a few weeks ago. "It's nothing to do with Venezuela," he said. "It's the oil price."

    The Venezuela meme is not going to help the tories, even if Corbyn has previously expressed praise for that regime. It sounds hyperbolic, just like saying we will be the new North Korea if he gets in.
  • TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 43,111

    Perhaps Toxic Theresa was right to dodge the public then, if one of her few appearances went heavily against her. Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

    She really is an astonishingly poor candidate for leader, and PM. What were the Tories thinking?

    Wishful thinking, I think. She had done well at the Home Office and not getting into many scrapes (and largely getting into the right ones when she did), was seen as a significant positive: a safe pair of hands and all that. And indeed, she can do the business of government well. What wasn't foreseen was how bad she'd be at the politics and the PR of government and of party management; requirements that she'd avoided providing hostages to fortune on as Home Secretary by ducking out but which couldn't be avoided as leader.
    That was all very well known.
  • another_richardanother_richard Posts: 26,924
    Sean_F said:

    CD13 said:

    Yes, it was a very poor campaign by the Tories, but sometimes there's a mood around in the country for a change - no matter what.

    [snip]

    Which there wasn't. The Tories massacred Labour in the local elections five weeks before the General. When there's a mood for change, you get the kind of local elections that we had in 1994-6 or 2008-9.
    Polling probably overstated the Tory lead, but I don't doubt they truly had a big lead at the outset.
    There's too much focus on the crapness of the Conservative campaign and too little on where all the extra Labour votes came from.

    And as it seems that Labour were themselves expecting a big defeat they didn't know who their new voters were either.
  • BarnesianBarnesian Posts: 8,755

    UK and EU citizens rights proposals compared:

    http://brexitcentral.com/uk-eu-will-square-citizens-rights/

    That's really useful and surprisingly balanced, given the source.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    As was said during the campaign, the Tories offered nothing to vote FOR, and plenty to vote against or abstain from supporting. Consequently they maintained most of those that had made their decision prior to the campaign, that wanted brexit and no Corbyn but failed to attract floaters and waverers who broke en masse for Labour, who also united the left against the misery of the Tory offer. With a positive manifesto she would have pushed 50%. Events like QT showed the paucity of the offer to the electorate. Too far from 2010 to offer more of the same, misery has a shelf life no matter how necessary or essential that misery is meant to be
  • JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    edited June 2017
    CD13 said:

    Mr Herdson,

    Don't over-think. You should have chosen Pritti Patel. At least, she's easy on the eye.

    Dear me, she is worse than May - Pritti Dire .... the packaging might be superficially appealing but the content would be immediately referred to trading standards and be judged as a fake product. She a political speak your weight machine.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Also worth nothing Cameron, even though he dropped the ball on the EU and was an unabashed toff had a way of convincing you the sun was shining on a cloudy day. May has you getting out your brolly in a heatwave.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    CD13 said:

    Mr Herdson,

    Don't over-think. You should have chosen Pritti Patel. At least, she's easy on the eye.

    ... and that would solve the country's problems if she was no better than Mrs May would it?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256
    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    CD13 said:

    Mr Herdson,

    Don't over-think. You should have chosen Pritti Patel. At least, she's easy on the eye.

    ... and that would solve the country's problems if she was no better than Mrs May would it?
    +1
  • PClippPClipp Posts: 2,138

    But in any case, what were the options? Boris is flaky and blustering; Osborne was tied to the Cameron project, austerity and the Remain Project Fear; Leadsom was grossly underqualified and proved within days her unsuitability; Gove is divisive and overly intellectual; Hammond might or might not be a male version of May but is uncharismatic and untested on the campaign trail. Indeed, the entire field of possibles all had significant question marks against them. At the time, May had fewer confirmed negatives which is why she won.

    In fact, Mr Herdson, there is nobody in the ranks of the Conservative Party who has any leadership qualities, who would be capable of uniting the nation. Except for your good self, of course. And I get the feeling that recently you have started to become a bit disenchanted with the Conservatives.
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.

    It was even worse than that because, as was repeatedly pointed out to some of the astroturfers on here, the polling evidence was that the specific attacks used against Corbyn, mainly the SF/IRA links, were not resonating with voters. That directs some of the blame (and heaven knows there is enough to share around) back at Crosby and Messina who should have seen the attacks were ineffective. It was not just the manifesto and not just Theresa May: the whole campaign was a clusterfuck.
  • YorkcityYorkcity Posts: 4,382

    Sean_F said:

    CD13 said:

    Yes, it was a very poor campaign by the Tories, but sometimes there's a mood around in the country for a change - no matter what.

    [snip]

    Which there wasn't. The Tories massacred Labour in the local elections five weeks before the General. When there's a mood for change, you get the kind of local elections that we had in 1994-6 or 2008-9.
    Polling probably overstated the Tory lead, but I don't doubt they truly had a big lead at the outset.
    There's too much focus on the crapness of the Conservative campaign and too little on where all the extra Labour votes came from.

    And as it seems that Labour were themselves expecting a big defeat they didn't know who their new voters were either.
    Very true to understand the result surely you would need to know where the Labour voters came from in such big numbers and why.In my area York Outer the increase in Labour support was massive in a safe Conservative seat.Usually that would diminish turnout , with why bother comments.Labour were surprised as there is also no council representation either.There could be a spread from York central to the suburbs and the wider countryside areas but why and how ?
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.

    It was even worse than that because, as was repeatedly pointed out to some of the astroturfers on here, the polling evidence was that the specific attacks used against Corbyn, mainly the SF/IRA links, were not resonating with voters. That directs some of the blame (and heaven knows there is enough to share around) back at Crosby and Messina who should have seen the attacks were ineffective. It was not just the manifesto and not just Theresa May: the whole campaign was a clusterfuck.
    I'm not sure thats true totally. Corbyn's ratings were pretty low. It was the lack of ANY reason to vote Tory which was the issue.

    It's a mistake they won't/can't make again, which at least provides some hope for the blues for the future.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    Well the debt is always going to increase until the deficit is zero.

    You do understand that, don't you.....
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    Well the debt is always going to increase until the deficit is zero.
    And when was the last time that happened?
  • ChrisChris Posts: 11,783
    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    Well the debt is always going to increase until the deficit is zero.
    And when was the last time that happened?
    During Gordon Brown's chancellorship, I guess.
  • Bobajob_PBBobajob_PB Posts: 928
    Priti Patel is a moron.

    https://youtu.be/_DrsVhzbLzU
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.

    It was even worse than that because, as was repeatedly pointed out to some of the astroturfers on here, the polling evidence was that the specific attacks used against Corbyn, mainly the SF/IRA links, were not resonating with voters. That directs some of the blame (and heaven knows there is enough to share around) back at Crosby and Messina who should have seen the attacks were ineffective. It was not just the manifesto and not just Theresa May: the whole campaign was a clusterfuck.
    I'm not sure thats true totally. Corbyn's ratings were pretty low. It was the lack of ANY reason to vote Tory which was the issue.

    It's a mistake they won't/can't make again, which at least provides some hope for the blues for the future.
    A mistake they won't make again? Why not? They'd not learned from the previous failures of purely negative campaigning in the London mayoral election, or in EUref, or its near-failure in IndyRef. Why will the Conservatives learn this time?
  • Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 62,074
    Mr. L, indeed.

    The next election will be... interesting.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    Well the debt is always going to increase until the deficit is zero.
    And when was the last time that happened?
    During Gordon Brown's chancellorship, I guess.
    When Brown was following Tory spending levels, yes.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,766

    As was said during the campaign, the Tories offered nothing to vote FOR, and plenty to vote against or abstain from supporting. Consequently they maintained most of those that had made their decision prior to the campaign, that wanted brexit and no Corbyn but failed to attract floaters and waverers who broke en masse for Labour, who also united the left against the misery of the Tory offer. With a positive manifesto she would have pushed 50%. Events like QT showed the paucity of the offer to the electorate. Too far from 2010 to offer more of the same, misery has a shelf life no matter how necessary or essential that misery is meant to be

    The general unpleasantness of the Tory campaign - and the newspaper headlines it was associated with it - reignited the anti-Tory party that had lain dormant in England since 2010. The Tories retoxified themselves by insisting that the views of 48% of the population could be ignored, and the votes of the elderly and the non-votes of the young could be taken for granted. The big question for next time is whether the anti-Tory party slinks back into hibernation or gets even bigger. As I argued the other day, the reaction of Labour to the election may lead to the former scenario; but the DUP hook-up may well mitigate that. The Tories need to find a unifying leader from somewhere. If they were smart they might start to see if there are ways to move Amber Rudd into a safe seat.

  • rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 8,407
    Chris said:

    Chris said:

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    Well the debt is always going to increase until the deficit is zero.
    And when was the last time that happened?
    During Gordon Brown's chancellorship, I guess.
    Yes it was.

    But debt as % of GDP is a better indicator. And that can decrease as long as economy grows faster than debt.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Sun reporting 30 NHS trusts have identified at risk cladding with 9 high rise hospitals classified at most risk. Pricey.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.

    It was even worse than that because, as was repeatedly pointed out to some of the astroturfers on here, the polling evidence was that the specific attacks used against Corbyn, mainly the SF/IRA links, were not resonating with voters. That directs some of the blame (and heaven knows there is enough to share around) back at Crosby and Messina who should have seen the attacks were ineffective. It was not just the manifesto and not just Theresa May: the whole campaign was a clusterfuck.
    I'm not sure thats true totally. Corbyn's ratings were pretty low. It was the lack of ANY reason to vote Tory which was the issue.

    It's a mistake they won't/can't make again, which at least provides some hope for the blues for the future.
    A mistake they won't make again? Why not? They'd not learned from the previous failures of purely negative campaigning in the London mayoral election, or in EUref, or its near-failure in IndyRef. Why will the Conservatives learn this time?
    Well if they don't then they rightfully deserve to lose, just as they did deserve to lose in 1997.

    The public mood is clearly changing to wanting more public spending, they can either be in front of that curve, or behind it.

    I would prefer that increased spending and increased taxes are done by the Tories than Labour clearly.
  • Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    So you are saying that they should have restricted spending more harshly than they did? Austerity was not harsh enough?
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587

    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.

    It was even worse than that because, as was repeatedly pointed out to some of the astroturfers on here, the polling evidence was that the specific attacks used against Corbyn, mainly the SF/IRA links, were not resonating with voters. That directs some of the blame (and heaven knows there is enough to share around) back at Crosby and Messina who should have seen the attacks were ineffective. It was not just the manifesto and not just Theresa May: the whole campaign was a clusterfuck.
    In retrospect the London Mayorals should have been a warning - there again, Crosby's big pitch was "Stop Khan, he had dodgy associates" and people felt that was a pretty feeble argument for voting Goldsmith. It's a real plus for democracy as a whole that it's increasingly clear that you can't win an election just by rubbishing people on the other side (and part of Corbyn's appeal that he doesn't). Even if the voters accept that there's something in the rubbishing, it isn't a clincher for them. This is rather a new development - it used to be true that the way to get votes was to bash the other side.

    Some posters here reckon that going after McDonnell instead of Corbyn will be more productive next time. But "Your team includes a bloke who had dodgy associates" is even weaker than "Your leader had dodgy associates". The Tories just have to have a positive reason to vote for them, and I wonder if they're capable of it without a period of opposition to regroup. Like Labour in 2010, they feel as though they've simply run out of steam.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    As was said during the campaign, the Tories offered nothing to vote FOR, and plenty to vote against or abstain from supporting. Consequently they maintained most of those that had made their decision prior to the campaign, that wanted brexit and no Corbyn but failed to attract floaters and waverers who broke en masse for Labour, who also united the left against the misery of the Tory offer. With a positive manifesto she would have pushed 50%. Events like QT showed the paucity of the offer to the electorate. Too far from 2010 to offer more of the same, misery has a shelf life no matter how necessary or essential that misery is meant to be

    The general unpleasantness of the Tory campaign - and the newspaper headlines it was associated with it - reignited the anti-Tory party that had lain dormant in England since 2010. The Tories retoxified themselves by insisting that the views of 48% of the population could be ignored, and the votes of the elderly and the non-votes of the young could be taken for granted. The big question for next time is whether the anti-Tory party slinks back into hibernation or gets even bigger. As I argued the other day, the reaction of Labour to the election may lead to the former scenario; but the DUP hook-up may well mitigate that. The Tories need to find a unifying leader from somewhere. If they were smart they might start to see if there are ways to move Amber Rudd into a safe seat.

    Also, no one was looking at labour policies as actual policies for government. That won't be the case next time.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,766

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    I've wondered about that letter. It was addressed to David Laws in his capacity of Chief Secretary to the Treasury. Yet David Cameron kept producing it out of his pocket. (Presumably David Cameron's version was a photocopy.)

    How did it cross party lines to end up in David Cameron's hands, even in a photocopied version? I have a feeling the answer to that question would tell us something about how the coalition government worked.

    It tells us how it worked at the start. The LibDems got very close to the Tories and together they went after Labour. I think it was this, rather than the student fees fiasco, which really harmed them.

  • PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 78,635

    Sun reporting 30 NHS trusts have identified at risk cladding with 9 high rise hospitals classified at most risk. Pricey.

    All under PFI contracts no doubt.
  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    edited June 2017
    JackW said:

    JackW said:

    Conservative Cabinet Crackpot Coalition of Chaos Update :

    If Mr Corbyn becomes PM would that mean he would in charge of the Chaos Cabinet of Crackpots Party - CCCP?

    :D


    Certainly not .... You can "P" off.

    Corbyn's Crazy Crackpot Co-operative of Chaos

    Up The Workers .. :smiley:

    Would @Beverley_C 's joke be easier to understand if she wrote in Cyrillic?
  • houndtanghoundtang Posts: 450
    Yorkcity said:

    Sean_F said:

    CD13 said:

    Yes, it was a very poor campaign by the Tories, but sometimes there's a mood around in the country for a change - no matter what.

    [snip]

    Which there wasn't. The Tories massacred Labour in the local elections five weeks before the General. When there's a mood for change, you get the kind of local elections that we had in 1994-6 or 2008-9.
    Polling probably overstated the Tory lead, but I don't doubt they truly had a big lead at the outset.
    There's too much focus on the crapness of the Conservative campaign and too little on where all the extra Labour votes came from.

    And as it seems that Labour were themselves expecting a big defeat they didn't know who their new voters were either.
    Very true to understand the result surely you would need to know where the Labour voters came from in such big numbers and why.In my area York Outer the increase in Labour support was massive in a safe Conservative seat.Usually that would diminish turnout , with why bother comments.Labour were surprised as there is also no council representation either.There could be a spread from York central to the suburbs and the wider countryside areas but why and how ?
    Yes it's very easy to forget that the Conservative vote actually went up 5.5% - a substantial increase and bigger than that achieved by Dave in 2010. It's just the Labour vote went up even more. Whether that was down to a great Labour campaign or the poor Tory one or a combination of both, or the implosion of the minor parties particularly UKIP is debateable.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited June 2017
    It was not the programme itself which hit May so much as the general perception that if you voted for Corbyn you would get a freebie, like free tuition fees, hence the higher youth turnout whilst if you voted for May you would have to use most of your estate to pay for your care costs if you got dementia and if you were middle aged you would then lose much of your inheritance and if you were a public sector worker you would still face a cap on your pay and if you were a pensioner you would get no triple lock or means tested fuel payments. There was no question which was the more electorally appealing and it was certainly not May and there was no question which was more fiscally prudent and it was certainly not Corbyn however the fact May lost her majority means Corbyn effectively won the war of ideas even if not the actual election. Hence Hammond has already effectively said there will now be an easing off of austerity, the Tories have abandoned the 'dementia tax' and ending the triple lock and means testing winter fuel payments and have had to give £1 billion to Northern Ireland to ensure DUP support. The age of austerity may not be completely over but that Question Time certainly symbolises that there is no longer much appetite for it
  • DecrepitJohnLDecrepitJohnL Posts: 13,300

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    So you are saying that they should have restricted spending more harshly than they did? Austerity was not harsh enough?
    No. The paradox is that austerity limits growth (remember Ed Balls's flat-lining hand gestures). Osborne should have concentrated on expanding the economy.
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    Pulpstar said:

    Sun reporting 30 NHS trusts have identified at risk cladding with 9 high rise hospitals classified at most risk. Pricey.

    All under PFI contracts no doubt.
    17,000 care homes, hospices snd private hospitals have been contacted to check too.
    Just the schools, offices, other public buildings to go then the inevitable requirement on private landlords.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682

    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.

    It was even worse than that because, as was repeatedly pointed out to some of the astroturfers on here, the polling evidence was that the specific attacks used against Corbyn, mainly the SF/IRA links, were not resonating with voters. That directs some of the blame (and heaven knows there is enough to share around) back at Crosby and Messina who should have seen the attacks were ineffective. It was not just the manifesto and not just Theresa May: the whole campaign was a clusterfuck.
    In retrospect the London Mayorals should have been a warning - there again, Crosby's big pitch was "Stop Khan, he had dodgy associates" and people felt that was a pretty feeble argument for voting Goldsmith. It's a real plus for democracy as a whole that it's increasingly clear that you can't win an election just by rubbishing people on the other side (and part of Corbyn's appeal that he doesn't). Even if the voters accept that there's something in the rubbishing, it isn't a clincher for them. This is rather a new development - it used to be true that the way to get votes was to bash the other side.

    Some posters here reckon that going after McDonnell instead of Corbyn will be more productive next time. But "Your team includes a bloke who had dodgy associates" is even weaker than "Your leader had dodgy associates". The Tories just have to have a positive reason to vote for them, and I wonder if they're capable of it without a period of opposition to regroup. Like Labour in 2010, they feel as though they've simply run out of steam.
    Except the Tories won 42%, the same as they got in 1987 and they were able to win 1 more election after that against a Labour leader also trying to win on his second attempt while in 2010 Labour only got 29%
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786
    @HYUFD they haven't abandoned dementia tax, it's still in the QS albeit under the heading of getting feedback on how to implement.
  • SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 39,766

    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.

    It was even worse than that because, as was repeatedly pointed out to some of the astroturfers on here, the polling evidence was that the specific attacks used against Corbyn, mainly the SF/IRA links, were not resonating with voters. That directs some of the blame (and heaven knows there is enough to share around) back at Crosby and Messina who should have seen the attacks were ineffective. It was not just the manifesto and not just Theresa May: the whole campaign was a clusterfuck.
    In retrospect the London Mayorals should have been a warning - there again, Crosby's big pitch was "Stop Khan, he had dodgy associates" and people felt that was a pretty feeble argument for voting Goldsmith. It's a real plus for democracy as a whole that it's increasingly clear that you can't win an election just by rubbishing people on the other side (and part of Corbyn's appeal that he doesn't). Even if the voters accept that there's something in the rubbishing, it isn't a clincher for them. This is rather a new development - it used to be true that the way to get votes was to bash the other side.

    Some posters here reckon that going after McDonnell instead of Corbyn will be more productive next time. But "Your team includes a bloke who had dodgy associates" is even weaker than "Your leader had dodgy associates". The Tories just have to have a positive reason to vote for them, and I wonder if they're capable of it without a period of opposition to regroup. Like Labour in 2010, they feel as though they've simply run out of steam.

    Yep - this ties in with the loss of power of the right wing press. So many people get their news and views from other sources now that the headlines in the newspapers no longer sway opinions as they used to. That downside of this compartmentalisation, of course, is that politicians can hide away, scream fake news and get away with it. I was totally wrong about Corbyn's strong IRA and Hamas links, as well as his tolerance of anti-semitism and apologists for Stalinism, being a negative; but I am far from convinced that is a good thing. After all, it also means that other very important issues will struggle to get a wide hearing. Like this, for example:

    https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/may/07/the-great-british-brexit-robbery-hijacked-democracy



  • CharlesCharles Posts: 35,758
    Barnesian said:

    UK and EU citizens rights proposals compared:

    http://brexitcentral.com/uk-eu-will-square-citizens-rights/

    That's really useful and surprisingly balanced, given the source.
    he predominating narrative in the UK thus far in the negotiations has essentially been that every proclamation from the EU or one of its member states is more or less infallible, as if handed down by Moses on stone tablets, while every divergence in the UK’s position from the EU’s demands is seized upon as some sort of moral flaw and a sign that Britain is supposedly handling the negotiations badly. This hugely asymmetric way in which scrutiny is being applied by the British press will do little to advance an agreement that is beneficial for both sides

    That's the most important comment, I think.

    There was a discussion on Today a couple of days ago on the question of whether the media should be more "patriotic" in their coverage of Brexit.

    I think that is the wrong question. However, what we are seeing is the full scale elision of of opinion and reporting: the (generally) anti-Brexit view of the much of the media is leading them to cover the topic from a narrative of "it's all going horribly wrong" - not very constructive.

    A more balanced discussion would be valuable to everyone (except possibly newspaper commercial revenues...)
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    So you are saying that they should have restricted spending more harshly than they did? Austerity was not harsh enough?
    No. The paradox is that austerity limits growth (remember Ed Balls's flat-lining hand gestures). Osborne should have concentrated on expanding the economy.
    Yes. We have the deficit and spending profile of a larger economy than we have. We can never address that without massive economic growth
  • calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    HYUFD said:

    It was not the programme itself which hit May so much as the general perception that if you voted for Corbyn you would get a freebie, like free tuition fees, hence the higher youth turnout whilst if you voted for May you would have to use most of your estate to pay for your care costs if you got dementia and if you were a public sector worker you would still face a cap on your pay and if you were a pensioner you would get no triple lock or means tested fuel payments. There was no question which was the more electorally appealing and it was certainly not May and there was no question which was more fiscally prudent and it was certainly not Corbyn however the fact May lost her majority means Corbyn effectively won the war of ideas even if not the actual election. Hence Hammond has already effectively said there will now be an easing off of austerity, the Tories have abandoned the 'dementia tax' and ending the triple lock and means testing winter fuel payments and have had to give £1 billion to Northern Ireland to ensure DUP support. The age of austerity may not be completely over but that Question Time certainly symbolises that there is no longer much appetite for it

    Bizzarely abandoning the "Dementia Tax" saves a few £Billion !
  • NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,587



    And as it seems that Labour were themselves expecting a big defeat they didn't know who their new voters were either.

    Not exactly. Veteran Labour MPs (who had a big overlap with Corbyn-sceptics) felt from experience that all this stuff about energising the youth vote and mobilising disenchanted leftists just wasn't going to work. Momentum and Corbyn's office essentially thought it might work and we had to try, and because we had lots of new members it was possible to make an effort in both Tory and Labour marginals.

    That's why the unofficial campaign and some of Corbyn's visits included Tory marginals, while the official campaign gloomily focused on defending moderately strong existing Labour seats (right up to polling day Broxtowe activists were being told to help out in places like ultra-safe Nottingham North, advice they rightly ignored).
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,497
    Ishmael_Z said:

    The one exception to my otherwise perfect record of being wrong about this election was that I did say, on here, immediately after QT was that we had just seen a man adhering to his deeply held convictions when it would have paid him to disown them, and a woman not doing that.

    Well you are a gentleman and a scholar, Ishmael, in admitting you were wrong. So few do.

    My own mea culpa can be illustrated by my comment to a very special friend just before election day that she should not waste £50 on backing a Hung Parliament at 10/1 'because it would be a total waste of money.'

    Naturally I coughed the monkey up.
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    So you are saying that they should have restricted spending more harshly than they did? Austerity was not harsh enough?
    No. The paradox is that austerity limits growth (remember Ed Balls's flat-lining hand gestures). Osborne should have concentrated on expanding the economy.
    Yes. We have the deficit and spending profile of a larger economy than we have. We can never address that without massive economic growth
    We could always cut spending
  • dyedwooliedyedwoolie Posts: 7,786

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    So you are saying that they should have restricted spending more harshly than they did? Austerity was not harsh enough?
    No. The paradox is that austerity limits growth (remember Ed Balls's flat-lining hand gestures). Osborne should have concentrated on expanding the economy.
    Yes. We have the deficit and spending profile of a larger economy than we have. We can never address that without massive economic growth
    We could always cut spending
    No, we couldnt, the economy is too small to generate an income that can support 66 million people. We need to expand the economy the way we are expanding the population.
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    So you are saying that they should have restricted spending more harshly than they did? Austerity was not harsh enough?
    No. The paradox is that austerity limits growth (remember Ed Balls's flat-lining hand gestures). Osborne should have concentrated on expanding the economy.
    Yes. We have the deficit and spending profile of a larger economy than we have. We can never address that without massive economic growth
    We could always cut spending
    We could, but pretty sure the public have had enough of that.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067


    The Tories retoxified themselves by insisting that the views of 48% of the population could be ignored

    Sounds like Mitt Romney
  • freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Roger said:

    Roger said:

    When it came to that magic money tree answer to that nurse, she should have done a Dave and mentioned Liam Byrne's letter.

    A bit moth eaten by now i'd have thought
    I think Dave had it laminated.
    It'll need carbon dating
    It should be enlarged, cast in bronze and mounted on the gates to Downing St until Gordon's debt pile is finally paid off.
    As the Conservatives have driven that debt up to levels undreamt of by Labour even at the height of the global financial crisis "which started in America" I do not suppose even a campaigner as bad as Theresa May will entertain that suggestion.
    So you are saying that they should have restricted spending more harshly than they did? Austerity was not harsh enough?
    No. The paradox is that austerity limits growth (remember Ed Balls's flat-lining hand gestures). Osborne should have concentrated on expanding the economy.
    Yes. We have the deficit and spending profile of a larger economy than we have. We can never address that without massive economic growth
    We could always cut spending
    No, we couldnt, the economy is too small to generate an income that can support 66 million people. We need to expand the economy the way we are expanding the population.
    We could cut foreign aid and slash the number of local councillors and bureaucrats.

    That's a start.
  • eristdooferistdoof Posts: 5,067
    "What was really damaging to TMay was the widespread discussion and distribution on social media and news clips of the “no magic money tree” response to the NHS nurse who talked about her effective pay cut. "

    Another lie from Mrs May. There is a magic money tree, one that has DUP written on it rather than NHS.
  • Peter_the_PunterPeter_the_Punter Posts: 14,497

    Bit unfair on Yougov, they've also came out looking fairly good I think

    YouGov would have done very well at GE17 if it had not changed its methodology for its final poll. It joined the pack. It takes a brave pollster to stick its neck out.

    Nate Silver was pretty critical though, Mike. It wasn't that they ended up getting it wrong that bothered him - that happens and no pollster can ensure that voters don't just behave differently to what they say - it was more that they didn't trust and use their own data. As a result they introduced a contamination that wasn't there in the first play.

    In other words, the criticism is not that they were wrong, but that they were wrong for the wrong reason.
  • HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 124,682
    edited June 2017
    calum said:

    HYUFD said:

    It was not the programme itself which hit May so much as the general perception that if you voted for Corbyn you would get a freebie, like free tuition fees, hence the higher youth turnout whilst if you voted for May you would have to use most of your estate to pay for your care costs if you got dementia and if you were a public sector worker you would still face a cap on your pay and if you were a pensioner you would get no triple lock or means tested fuel payments. There was no question which was the more electorally appealing and it was certainly not May and there was no question which was more fiscally prudent and it was certainly not Corbyn however the fact May lost her majority means Corbyn effectively won the war of ideas even if not the actual election. Hence Hammond has already effectively said there will now be an easing off of austerity, the Tories have abandoned the 'dementia tax' and ending the triple lock and means testing winter fuel payments and have had to give £1 billion to Northern Ireland to ensure DUP support. The age of austerity may not be completely over but that Question Time certainly symbolises that there is no longer much appetite for it

    Bizzarely abandoning the "Dementia Tax" saves a few £Billion !
    For those with wealthy parents yes, for the government it means they have to keep subsidising those who need personal care so they pass on the value of their homes in full to their children once they pass away. Osborne's raising the IHT threshold to £1 million and scrapping the dementia tax is a huge bonus to children of middle class home owning parents in London and the South East certainly, thanks George and Jeremy!
  • SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,786

    Mr. Woolie, spot on. Criticising the opposition is fine, but you can't have a situation where the only positive to vote for your own side is because you're not another party.

    It was even worse than that because, as was repeatedly pointed out to some of the astroturfers on here, the polling evidence was that the specific attacks used against Corbyn, mainly the SF/IRA links, were not resonating with voters. That directs some of the blame (and heaven knows there is enough to share around) back at Crosby and Messina who should have seen the attacks were ineffective. It was not just the manifesto and not just Theresa May: the whole campaign was a clusterfuck.
    In retrospect the London Mayorals should have been a warning - there again, Crosby's big pitch was "Stop Khan, he had dodgy associates" and people felt that was a pretty feeble argument for voting Goldsmith. It's a real plus for democracy as a whole that it's increasingly clear that you can't win an election just by rubbishing people on the other side (and part of Corbyn's appeal that he doesn't). Even if the voters accept that there's something in the rubbishing, it isn't a clincher for them. This is rather a new development - it used to be true that the way to get votes was to bash the other side.

    Some posters here reckon that going after McDonnell instead of Corbyn will be more productive next time. But "Your team includes a bloke who had dodgy associates" is even weaker than "Your leader had dodgy associates". The Tories just have to have a positive reason to vote for them, and I wonder if they're capable of it without a period of opposition to regroup. Like Labour in 2010, they feel as though they've simply run out of steam.

    Yep - this ties in with the loss of power of the right wing press. So many people get their news and views from other sources now that the headlines in the newspapers no longer sway opinions as they used to. That downside of this compartmentalisation, of course, is that politicians can hide away, scream fake news and get away with it.
    Ignoring the 'bias' of the press (although my opinion is that the press can be biased on both sides, just that one side is more popular than the other). I'm not sure the decline of this is a good thing, just like other parts of social media, it allows individuals to retreat into echo chambers and 'fake news', look at all the fake claims going around Grendell for example.

    social media/the internet may be focusing on right-ring fake-news and internet activity (alt-right etc) and rightly so, but the left wing fake-news and 'alt-left' is just as active, if not more so.

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