Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
That is the “between the lines” message of the British government’s offer on EU citizens’ rights after Brexit. The 3 million EU nationals will be joining the ranks of at least 1 million foreign nationals from outside the EU with “indefinite leave to remain” status who already form a largely invisible disenfranchised subclass in Britain.
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
That is the “between the lines” message of the British government’s offer on EU citizens’ rights after Brexit. The 3 million EU nationals will be joining the ranks of at least 1 million foreign nationals from outside the EU with “indefinite leave to remain” status who already form a largely invisible disenfranchised subclass in Britain.
That's no difference from my experience in the US. I had to be fingerprinted at the embassy, I have a residency document that I have to keep, and I have no vote. Yet still tens/hundreds of thousands want to emigrate here every year.
But
So not strictly comparable?
I'm on a dual-intent visa, I could apply for permanent residency if I wished. Even if I did that I would still have beenaround with me, and I still wouldn't get a vote.
But there's a route for you to get the vote, unlike these poor EU souls, they'd be better off being Commonwealth citizens.
No wonder one third of them are considering leaving the UK.
Since foreign nationals have never had the vote in Parliamentary elections in this country, how are they being disenfranchised?
It seems entirely right to me that voting is linked to citizenship.
Can't EU nationals vote in local elections currently? Taking that right away is disenfranchising them.
What we are making UK a far less attractive place to locate or remain for those whose skillsets give them a choice.
The damage the UK is currently doing to its international standing is immense. The flag-waving party is inflicting substantial harm on what it professes to care about most. But there is an upside: as the UK becomes ever-more irrelevant internationally, we can drop the pretence that we sre a major international player and save ourselves a lot of money on projects like Trident.
The Guardian article does not suggest they will lose the right to vote in local elections.
The government is proposing that EU citizens will have settled status in the UK post-Brexit. That would preclude voting in local elections.
The LibDems need to be highly pragmatic. They need to be noticed and not ignored and that means Cable. He's one of the few LibDem heavyweights in the HoC and is far more high profile and media friendly than any LibDem other than Clegg.
That said the yellow peril should avoid a coronation for the same reason - media coverage. Even a token opponent would be better and also have the merit of introducing a new (female) MP to the country.
It's Strictly Come On Vince.
A combination of Vince and Jo Swinson could be very media friendly.
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
That is the “between the lines” message of the British government’s offer on EU citizens’ rights after Brexit. The 3 million EU nationals will be joining the ranks of at least 1 million foreign nationals from outside the EU with “indefinite leave to remain” status who already form a largely invisible disenfranchised subclass in Britain.
That's no difference from my experience in the US. I had to be fingerprinted at the embassy, I have a residency document that I have to keep, and I have no vote. Yet still tens/hundreds of thousands want to emigrate here every year.
But
So not strictly comparable?
I'm on a dual-intent visa, I could apply for permanent residency if I wished. Even if I did that I would still have beenaround with me, and I still wouldn't get a vote.
But there's a route for you to get the vote, unlike these poor EU souls, they'd be better off being Commonwealth citizens.
No wonder one third of them are considering leaving the UK.
Since foreign nationals have never had the vote in Parliamentary elections in this country, how are they being disenfranchised?
It seems entirely right to me that voting is linked to citizenship.
Can't EU nationals vote in local elections currently? Taking that right away is disenfranchising them.
What we are making UK a far less attractive place to locate or remain for those whose skillsets give them a choice.
The damage the UK is currently doing to its international standing is immense. The flag-waving party is inflicting substantial harm on what it professes to care about most. But there is an upside: as the UK becomes ever-more irrelevant internationally, we can drop the pretence that we sre a major international player and save ourselves a lot of money on projects like Trident.
The Guardian article does not suggest they will lose the right to vote in local elections.
The government is proposing that EU citizens will have settled status in the UK post-Brexit. That would preclude voting in local elections.
"48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut"
People want reasonable services, there is a time lag but it's getting through that more money is needed. I'm afraid that this will help Corbyn most. Finding £1,000,000,000 for 10 DUP members votes, but making emergency services personnel poorer by giving sub-inflation rises is not a good look for the Tories.
"Labour is to table an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for the 1% public sector pay cap and cuts to the police and emergency services to end."
Funnily enough I have just been reading a ConHome thread and was surprised how many Tories on there were arguing for higher taxes on the wealthy to support doing more for the so-called JAMS, including some of them toying with the idea of a wealth or property tax. Times are changing.
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
That's no difference from my experience in the US. I had to be fingerprinted at the embassy, I have a residency document that I have to keep, and I have no vote. Yet still tens/hundreds of thousands want to emigrate here every year.
But
So not strictly comparable?
I'm on a dual-intent visa, I could apply for permanent residency if I wished. Even if I did that I would still have beenaround with me, and I still wouldn't get a vote.
But there's a route for you to get the vote, unlike these poor EU souls, they'd be better off being Commonwealth citizens.
No wonder one third of them are considering leaving the UK.
Since foreign nationals have never had the vote in Parliamentary elections in this country, how are they being disenfranchised?
It seems entirely right to me that voting is linked to citizenship.
Can't EU nationals vote in local elections currently? Taking that right away is disenfranchising them.
What we are making UK a far less attractive place to locate or remain for those whose skillsets give them a choice.
The damage the UK is currently doingdrop the pretence that we sre a major international player and save ourselves a lot of money on projects like Trident.
The Guardian article does not suggest they will lose the right to vote in local elections.
The government is proposing that EU citizens will have settled status in the UK post-Brexit. That would preclude voting in local elections.
Rubbish.
There is no right to vote in local elections with settled status. Once we have left the EU we will no longer be required to allow EU citizens to vote in local elections and the government does not say we will in its proposal.
"48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut"
People want reasonable services, there is a time lag but it's getting through that more money is needed. I'm afraid that this will help Corbyn most. Finding £1,000,000,000 for 10 DUP members votes, but making emergency services personnel poorer by giving sub-inflation rises is not a good look for the Tories.
"Labour is to table an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for the 1% public sector pay cap and cuts to the police and emergency services to end."
A massive 28% of workers in Northern Ireland work in the public sector, and I would expect very many of them support the DUP. I doubt the Tories will want to vote Labour's amendment down. Despite Corbyn having previously shown little aptitude for parliamentary tactics, it would appear he has advisors with a bit more cunning.
""The government announcement on EU citizens leaves so much in doubt. From the description it seems as if this is ID cards by the backdoor," Liberal Democrat MP Ed Davey said.
"David Davis resigned his seat and caused a by-election because he was disgusted by the assault on civil liberties by the then Labour government. What will he do this time round?
However, Brexit secretary David Davis on Monday denied claims from the opposition benches that the documents would amount to an ID card for EU citizens.
"It is not an ID card," he said in the House of Commons.
"We are talking about documentation to prove that people have the right to a job and the right to residence, but they will not have to carry that around all the time. It is not an ID card; it is rather like your birth certificate. It’s not an ID card!""
Funnily enough I have just been reading a ConHome thread and was surprised how many Tories on there were arguing for higher taxes on the wealthy to support doing more for the so-called JAMS, including some of them toying with the idea of a wealth or property tax. Times are changing.
Huh.. You think they are Tories on Con Home? Probably just like the three quid Corbynites.
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
That's no difference from my experience in the US. I had to be fingerprinted at the embassy, I have a residency document that I have to keep, and I have no vote. Yet still tens/hundreds of thousands want to emigrate here every year.
But
So not strictly comparable?
I'm on a dual-intent visa, I could apply for permanent residency if I wished. Even if I did that I would still have beenaround with me, and I still wouldn't get a vote.
But there's a route for you to get the vote, unlike these poor EU souls, they'd be better off being Commonwealth citizens.
No wonder one third of them are considering leaving the UK.
Since foreign nationals have never had the vote in Parliamentary elections in this country, how are they being disenfranchised?
It seems entirely right to me that voting is linked to citizenship.
Can't EU nationals vote in local elections currently? Taking that right away is disenfranchising them.
What we are making UK a far less attractive place to locate or remain for those whose skillsets give them a choice.
The damage the UK is currently doing to its international standing is immense. The flag-waving party is inflicting substantial harm on what it professes to care about most. But there is an upside: as the UK
The Guardian article does not suggest they will lose the right to vote in local elections.
The government is proposing that EU citizens will have settled status in the UK post-Brexit. That would preclude voting in local elections.
Rubbish.
There is no right to vote in local elections with settled status.
"48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut"
People want reasonable services, there is a time lag but it's getting through that more money is needed. I'm afraid that this will help Corbyn most. Finding £1,000,000,000 for 10 DUP members votes, but making emergency services personnel poorer by giving sub-inflation rises is not a good look for the Tories.
"Labour is to table an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for the 1% public sector pay cap and cuts to the police and emergency services to end."
There is encouragement for both right and left, in the full report.
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
That's no difference from my experience in the US. I had to be fingerprinted at the embassy, I have a residency document that I have to keep, and I have no vote. Yet still tens/hundreds of thousands want to emigrate here every year.
But
So not strictly comparable?
I'm on a dual-intent visa, I could apply for permanent residency if I wished. Even if I did that I would still have beenaround with me, and I still wouldn't get a vote.
But there's a route for you to get the vote, unlike these poor EU souls, they'd be better off being Commonwealth citizens.
No wonder one third of them are considering leaving the UK.
Since foreign nationals have never had the vote in Parliamentary elections in this country, how are they being disenfranchised?
It seems entirely right to me that voting is linked to citizenship.
Can't EU nationals vote in local elections currently? Taking that right away is disenfranchising them.
What we are making UK a far less attractive place to locate or remain for those whose skillsets give them a choice.
The damage the UK is currently doingdrop the pretence that we sre a major international player and save ourselves a lot of money on projects like Trident.
The Guardian article does not suggest they will lose the right to vote in local elections.
The government is proposing that EU citizens will have settled status in the UK post-Brexit. That would preclude voting in local elections.
Rubbish.
There is no right to vote in local elections with settled status. Once we have left the EU we will no longer be required to allow EU citizens to vote in local elections and the government does not say we will in its proposal.
It is crazy that permanent residents with settled status will not be able to vote, while someone just off the plane from Bangladesh or Mozambique can.
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
That's no difference from my experience in the US. I had to be fingerprinted at the embassy, I have a residency document that I have to keep, and I have no vote. Yet still tens/hundreds of thousands want to emigrate here every year.
But
So not strictly comparable?
I'm on a duala vote.
But there's a route for you to get the vote, unlike these poor EU souls, they'd be better off being Commonwealth citizens.
No wonder one third of them are considering leaving the UK.
Since foreign nationals have never had the vote in Parliamentary elections in this country, how are they being disenfranchised?
It seems entirely right to me that voting is linked to citizenship.
Can't EU nationals vote in local elections currently? Taking that right away is disenfranchising them.
What we are making UK a far less attractive place to locate or remain for those whose skillsets give them a choice.
The damage the UK about most. But there is an upside: as the UK
The Guardian article does not suggest they will lose the right to vote in local elections.
The government is proposing that EU citizens will have settled status in the UK post-Brexit. That would preclude voting in local elections.
Rubbish.
There is no right to vote in local elections with settled status.
Actually, I don't think the issue has been addressed, in the policy paper. They ought to retain this right.
No, it hasn't been addressed. The more you look at the proposals the more holes there are in them.
What we do know is that the government is proposing EU citizens will have the equivalent of settled status post-Brexit. As things stand, those with settled status generally cannot vote in local elections.
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
That's no difference from my experience in the US. I had to be fingerprinted at the embassy, I have a residency document that I have to keep, and I have no vote. Yet still tens/hundreds of thousands want to emigrate here every year.
But
So not strictly comparable?
I'm on a dual-intent visa, I could apply for permanent residency if I wished. Even if I did that I would still have beenaround with me, and I still wouldn't get a vote.
But there's a route for you to get the vote, unlike these poor EU souls, they'd be better off being Commonwealth citizens.
No wonder one third of them are considering leaving the UK.
Since foreign nationals have never had the vote in Parliamentary elections in this country, how are they being disenfranchised?
It seems entirely right to me that voting is linked to citizenship.
Can't EU nationals vote in local elections currently? Taking that right away is disenfranchising them.
What we are making UK a far less attractive
The Guardian article does not suggest they will lose the right to vote in local elections.
The government is proposing that EU citizens will have settled status in the UK post-Brexit. That would preclude voting in local elections.
Rubbish.
There is no right to vote in local elections with settled status. Once we have left the EU we will no longer be required to allow EU citizens to vote in local elections and the government does not say we will in its proposal.
It is crazy that permanent residents with settled status will not be able to vote, while someone just off the plane from Bangladesh or Mozambique can.
Voting rights for Commonwealth citizens are an absurd anomaly.
"48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut"
People want reasonable services, there is a time lag but it's getting through that more money is needed. I'm afraid that this will help Corbyn most. Finding £1,000,000,000 for 10 DUP members votes, but making emergency services personnel poorer by giving sub-inflation rises is not a good look for the Tories.
"Labour is to table an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for the 1% public sector pay cap and cuts to the police and emergency services to end."
There is encouragement for both right and left, in the full report.
I'm not interested in whether Left or Right are being encouraged.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
The LibDems need to be highly pragmatic. They need to be noticed and not ignored and that means Cable. He's one of the few LibDem heavyweights in the HoC and is far more high profile and media friendly than any LibDem other than Clegg.
That said the yellow peril should avoid a coronation for the same reason - media coverage. Even a token opponent would be better and also have the merit of introducing a new (female) MP to the country.
It's Strictly Come On Vince.
A combination of Vince and Jo Swinson could be very media friendly.
People are naive if they think any leader of the SNP, a party for which Scottish independence is their raison d'etre, is going to come out and say "we're going to put off holding a referendum indefinitely". Of course not; she is going to to talk in some vague way about a time not 2 years but not as much as 5 years hence, to keep her base happy while committing to nothing.
And in 2021 lose her majority and the end of Independence for a generation
"It is not an ID card," he said in the House of Commons.
"We are talking about documentation to prove that people have the right to a job and the right to residence
Also known as a card for identification...
Look, he's in a difficult situation and is trying to squeeze through a tiny gap in the difference between a 'document' and a 'card'. Give him a break, we know what a snowflake he is he might just resign and cause a by-election.
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
Would probably be higher than 48% if it was for 'other people'.
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
My guess is that putting up higher rates of tax to fund public spending would be wildly popular. Putting up VAT or the basic rate to do so would provoke a shitstorm.
"The Times says splits have emerged at the top of government after Brexit Secretary David Davis and Chancellor Philip Hammond set out alternative timetables for leaving the EU, with different timings for new customs arrangements, while Mr Hammond mocked Foreign Secretary Boris Johnson's claim that the UK could "have our cake and eat it" after Brexit."
"48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut"
People want reasonable services, there is a time lag but it's getting through that more money is needed. I'm afraid that this will help Corbyn most. Finding £1,000,000,000 for 10 DUP members votes, but making emergency services personnel poorer by giving sub-inflation rises is not a good look for the Tories.
"Labour is to table an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for the 1% public sector pay cap and cuts to the police and emergency services to end."
A massive 28% of workers in Northern Ireland work in the public sector, and I would expect very many of them support the DUP. I doubt the Tories will want to vote Labour's amendment down. Despite Corbyn having previously shown little aptitude for parliamentary tactics, it would appear he has advisors with a bit more cunning.
Hold on isn't voting for an opposition amendment on the Queens Speech a confidence issue for the PM ?
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
It's always for other people.
The "rich" start with people who earn just a little bit more than I do, whatever that is.
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
My guess is that putting up higher rates of tax to fund public spending would be wildly popular.
Unfortunately it might not actually generate that much more revenue.......
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
Would probably be higher than 48% if it was for 'other people'.
Probably about 95% for "Other people" and 5% for "Me."
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
In that case, perhaps we should form a Holy Alliance with Russia and Turkey?
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
My guess is that putting up higher rates of tax to fund public spending would be wildly popular. Putting up VAT or the basic rate to do so would provoke a shitstorm.
Would that raise enough?
I have been saying that the government should increase spending on the NHS, education, and public services. I'm not sure that a higher marginal rate would pay for that, then again, as we are now not due to balance the books until 2025, there is some wiggle room.
There needs to be some kind of fiscal stimulus also.
The Times front page strongly suggests that David Davis continues to wing it. I wonder if he still believes we'll be signing a trade deal with Germany post-Brexit.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
My guess is that putting up higher rates of tax to fund public spending would be wildly popular. Putting up VAT or the basic rate to do so would provoke a shitstorm.
Would that raise enough?
I have been saying that the government should increase spending on the NHS, education, and public services. I'm not sure that a higher marginal rate would pay for that, then again, as we are now not due to balance the books until 2025, there is some wiggle room.
There needs to be some kind of fiscal stimulus also.
48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
My guess is that putting up higher rates of tax to fund public spending would be wildly popular. Putting up VAT or the basic rate to do so would provoke a shitstorm.
And wouldn't raise much revenue and would be economically counterproductive.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
It will not be easy, just as in the late 1930s/1940 it would have been much easier for the UK to align itself with the Axis powers. The EU is a modern less militant version of Großdeutsches reich.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
No, the damage to the UK will be completely self inflicted.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
It will not be easy, just as in the late 1930s/1940 it would have been much easier for the UK to align itself with the Axis powers.
I don't see the EU as the equivalent of the Axis powers. It is a rational actor. Right now, the UK is not.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
No, the damage to the UK will be completely self inflicted.
There won't be any damage.
Project Fear failed, you persist with the same rubbish but nobody is listening. According to the BBC 75% want to leave the EU, we're sick of it.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
Actually, I don't think the issue has been addressed, in the policy paper. They ought to retain this right.
No, it hasn't been addressed. The more you look at the proposals the more holes there are in them.
What we do know is that the government is proposing EU citizens will have the equivalent of settled status post-Brexit. As things stand, those with settled status generally cannot vote in local elections.
It's inconceivable that EU citizens permanently settled here will lose local election voting rights.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
No, the damage to the UK will be completely self inflicted.
I agree. The question becomes how quickly the damage can be repaired, and whether we are better off in the long term.
I'm bemused by the way some hardcore leavers (though not all) seem to think that our negotiating position is fine and moral, whilst theirs is nasty and evil.
It was always obvious that there was going to be some pour encourager les autres in the EU's position - because that's in their interest. They're going for what they think is right for them, just as we are for ourselves. It then becomes a question of who has the better hand of cards.
On the other hand, we have some prominent leavers who want not just to leave the EU, but for the EU to be destroyed. This was not a position designed to help negotiations.
"48% say they want higher taxes to pay for more spending on health, education and social benefits; 44% say they want it to stay the same and 4% would like to see taxes cut"
People want reasonable services, there is a time lag but it's getting through that more money is needed. I'm afraid that this will help Corbyn most. Finding £1,000,000,000 for 10 DUP members votes, but making emergency services personnel poorer by giving sub-inflation rises is not a good look for the Tories.
"Labour is to table an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for the 1% public sector pay cap and cuts to the police and emergency services to end."
A massive 28% of workers in Northern Ireland work in the public sector, and I would expect very many of them support the DUP. I doubt the Tories will want to vote Labour's amendment down. Despite Corbyn having previously shown little aptitude for parliamentary tactics, it would appear he has advisors with a bit more cunning.
Hold on isn't voting for an opposition amendment on the Queens Speech a confidence issue for the PM ?
Probably. Which doesn't mean it wont be discussed behind the scenes.
edit/ BBC reporting that the Tories "can rely on the DUP to vote it down". No guesses as to who fed them that line. A welcome to government for the DUP...
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
It will not be easy, just as in the late 1930s/1940 it would have been much easier for the UK to align itself with the Axis powers.
the EU..... is a rational actor. Right now, the UK is not.
Is the UK arguing that UK citizens in the EU should protect their rights via the UK Supreme Court, as the EU is demanding for EU citizens in the UK & the ECJ?
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
It neatly encapsulates the obssesive anti-European, Atlanticist right who are prepared to inflict immense damage on the UK's citizens and the country's international standing in order to turn us into a low regulation offshore island. I find that pretty offensive. Trump's toxicity and the general election result have scuppered them. Rejoice!
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
No, the damage to the UK will be completely self inflicted.
There won't be any damage.
Project Fear failed, you persist with the same rubbish but nobody is listening. According to the BBC 75% want to leave the EU, we're sick of it.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
No, the damage to the UK will be completely self inflicted.
There won't be any damage.
Project Fear failed, you persist with the same rubbish but nobody is listening. According to the BBC 75% want to leave the EU, we're sick of it.
Dream on!
Dream on? Its on the BBC website mate, the link is below
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
It neatly encapsulates the obssesive anti-European, Atlanticist right who are prepared to inflict immense damage on the UK's citizens and the country's international standing in order to turn us into a low regulation offshore island. I find that pretty offensive. Trump's toxicity and the general election result have scuppered them. Rejoice!
Bollocks. They are just passionate advocates of an independent self-governing Britain, that's all. They don't get everything right, by all means, but they don't deserve the insults you throw at them.
I've rarely met non-UK EU citizns who cared much about voting in local elections - the LibDems made a serious effort to harvest their votes and I don't think got very far. Equally I doubt if many people seriously object to somone who pays council tax in Little Snodsbury getting a say in how Little Snodsbury is governed. So IMO it's a bit of a non-issue, and one side or the other can make it a goodwill concession.
The willingness of Ministers to disagree more or less openly is the much more significant story today. The European view is increasingly that it's hard to negotiate Brexit since we neither know exactly what we want nor are able to agree on the details among ourselves. May needs to bite the bullet and have a reshuffle that gets rid of one side or the other, and then dare the losers to bring the Government down (they won't). Going into the serious talks with the current Cabinet-as-debating-club is going to be a serious handicap. This isn't a partisan point- I would rather she fired the hard Brexit people but really a consistent Cabinet either way would be better.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
It will not be easy, just as in the late 1930s/1940 it would have been much easier for the UK to align itself with the Axis powers.
the EU..... is a rational actor. Right now, the UK is not.
Is the UK arguing that UK citizens in the EU should protect their rights via the UK Supreme Court, as the EU is demanding for EU citizens in the UK & the ECJ?
Which is rationale?
The EU seems to have got what it wants - a UK commitment to creating a mechanism that ensures the UK cannot unilaterally change the rights of EU citizens residing in the UK post-Brexit. So, I'd say the EU's decision to make its opening position ECJ control was entirely rational.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
I'm tired of it. If I used the same term (analogous of the mentally retarded) to describe those on the Left you'd be the first to complain.
Stick to the arguments. As soon as it gets personal, I know you're on shaky ground.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
Where's that list?
Just a joke, turning the tables really ;-) However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today. Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
It will not be easy, just as in the late 1930s/1940 it would have been much easier for the UK to align itself with the Axis powers.
the EU..... is a rational actor. Right now, the UK is not.
Is the UK arguing that UK citizens in the EU should protect their rights via the UK Supreme Court, as the EU is demanding for EU citizens in the UK & the ECJ?
Which is rational?
Both EU and UK citizens rightly or wrongly trust the ECJ to protect their rights better than any UK court. The UK proposals don't include any legally enforceable guarantees.
It's inconceivable that EU citizens permanently settled here will lose local election voting rights.
So we'd have three classes of permanent residents - Commonwealth (vote everything), EU (vote local) and Other (no votes). Seems ripe for simplification!
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
It will not be easy, just as in the late 1930s/1940 it would have been much easier for the UK to align itself with the Axis powers.
the EU..... is a rational actor. Right now, the UK is not.
Is the UK arguing that UK citizens in the EU should protect their rights via the UK Supreme Court, as the EU is demanding for EU citizens in the UK & the ECJ?
Which is rational?
Both EU and UK citizens rightly or wrongly trust the ECJ to protect their rights better than any UK court.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
I'm tired of it. If I used the same term (analogous of the mentally retarded) to describe those on the Left you'd be the first to complain.
Stick to the arguments. As soon as it gets personal, I know you're on shaky ground.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
It neatly encapsulates the obssesive anti-European, Atlanticist right who are prepared to inflict immense damage on the UK's citizens and the country's international standing in order to turn us into a low regulation offshore island. I find that pretty offensive. Trump's toxicity and the general election result have scuppered them. Rejoice!
Bollocks. They are just passionate advocates of an independent self-governing Britain, that's all. They don't get everything right, by all means, but they don't deserve the insults you throw at them.
You need to have a lie down.
Ha, ha - they called people like me citizens of nowhere, saboteurs and enemies of the people. They are not passionate, they are cynical and mendacious plastic patriots with no interest whatsoever in the UK's good standing or the welfare of its citizens. I will not take that lying down. I am British, after all.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
Where's that list?
Just a joke, turning the tables really ;-) However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today. Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
Oh I don't mind - it is the vernacular and we all know what is meant. And I think anyone who gets hugely offended by something written on an internet chat board shouldn't be on that internet chat board
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
It neatly encapsulates the obssesive anti-European, Atlanticist right who are prepared to inflict immense damage on the UK's citizens and the country's international standing in order to turn us into a low regulation offshore island. I find that pretty offensive. Trump's toxicity and the general election result have scuppered them. Rejoice!
Bollocks. They are just passionate advocates of an independent self-governing Britain, that's all. They don't get everything right, by all means, but they don't deserve the insults you throw at them.
You need to have a lie down.
Ha, ha - they called people like me a citizen of nowhere, a saboteur and an enemy of the people. They are not passionate, they are cynical and mendacious plastic patriots with no interest whatsoever in the UK's good standing or the welfare of its citizens.
Scared. Plus they are scared. They didn't have the confidence to think that the UK could hold its own in the EU and therefore cut and run.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
Where's that list?
Just a joke, turning the tables really ;-) However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today. Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
I used "plank" gratuitously and deliberately to highlight the stupidity of those Remainers who think public opinion is with them. To emphasise my point, to them the majority are "swivel eyed".
Brexit Britain will be home to 3 million second-class European Union “settled citizens” who have been fingerprinted, registered and issued with a residence identity document and with no vote in general elections.
Actually, I don't think the issue has been addressed, in the policy paper. They ought to retain this right.
No, it hasn't been addressed. The more you look at the proposals the more holes there are in them.
What we do know is that the government is proposing EU citizens will have the equivalent of settled status post-Brexit. As things stand, those with settled status generally cannot vote in local elections.
It's inconceivable that EU citizens permanently settled here will lose local election voting rights.
They will be losing other rights, having been told by the likes of our foreign secretary they wouldn't be, so why not that one, too?
People come on here for various reasons, I most enjoy the wealthy contributors who clearly have plenty of time on their hands telling us how much they care for the poor.
Mr Smithson should change the name to www.virtuesignalling.com
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
I don't. The problem at the moment is that our side - Hammond excepted, it seems - has yet to come to grips with what the reality of Brexit entails. People like Davis have been religious about it for so long they have yet to accept that leaving the EU is not as easy and as beneficial is they had always thought. Reality will intrude, of course, and is beginning to do so.
It will not be easy, just as in the late 1930s/1940 it would have been much easier for the UK to align itself with the Axis powers.
the EU..... is a rational actor. Right now, the UK is not.
Is the UK arguing that UK citizens in the EU should protect their rights via the UK Supreme Court, as the EU is demanding for EU citizens in the UK & the ECJ?
Which is rational?
Both EU and UK citizens rightly or wrongly trust the ECJ to protect their rights better than any UK court.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
Where's that list?
Just a joke, turning the tables really ;-) However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today. Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
I used "plank" gratuitously and deliberately to highlight the stupidity of those Remainers who think public opinion is with them. To emphasise my point, to them the majority are "swivel eyed".
Ah..I see you meant in our exchange that Remainers were ignoring public opinion (or thinking that it was one thing when the poll said it was another).
Apols; I thought you had meant that as the public was in favour of something, it was right.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
Where's that list?
Just a joke, turning the tables really ;-) However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today. Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
I used "plank" gratuitously and deliberately to highlight the stupidity of those Remainers who think public opinion is with them. To emphasise my point, to them the majority are "swivel eyed".
Ah..I see you meant in our exchange that Remainers were ignoring public opinion (or thinking that it was one thing when the poll said it was another).
Apols; I thought you had meant that as the public was in favour of something, it was right.
I meant both.
If I believe in Father Christmas you have every right to call me names, if I vote for Corbyn (along with millions of others) I am not wrong.
Its called democracy mate, one man one vote, not one person telling others they're wrong to prefer one politician over another.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
Where's that list?
Just a joke, turning the tables really ;-) However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today. Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
I used "plank" gratuitously and deliberately to highlight the stupidity of those Remainers who think public opinion is with them. To emphasise my point, to them the majority are "swivel eyed".
Ah..I see you meant in our exchange that Remainers were ignoring public opinion (or thinking that it was one thing when the poll said it was another).
Apols; I thought you had meant that as the public was in favour of something, it was right.
I meant both.
If I believe in something Father Christmas you have every right to call me names, if I vote for Corbyn (along with millions of others) I am not wrong.
Its called democracy mate, one man one vote, not one person telling others they're wrong to prefer one politician over another.
Ah good because I thought I hadn't misread your post too much.
If you vote for Jeremy Corbyn you most certainly are wrong because he would be a disaster for the country.
You would be definitely, categorically, this is the one objective truth, incontrovertibly wrong.
Bit surprised Ladbrokes don't appear to have a market at all any more. Would've thought they'd make Cable 1.02 or something daft and try to tempt punters into backing others.
From a betting perspective, Cable's fine for me, though I think he's a poor choice. Damned shame Lamb ruled himself out.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
Where's that list?
Just a joke, turning the tables really ;-) However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today. Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
I used "plank" gratuitously and deliberately to highlight the stupidity of those Remainers who think public opinion is with them. To emphasise my point, to them the majority are "swivel eyed".
Ah..I see you meant in our exchange that Remainers were ignoring public opinion (or thinking that it was one thing when the poll said it was another).
Apols; I thought you had meant that as the public was in favour of something, it was right.
I meant both.
If I believe in something Father Christmas you have every right to call me names, if I vote for Corbyn (along with millions of others) I am not wrong.
Its called democracy mate, one man one vote, not one person telling others they're wrong to prefer one politician over another.
Ah good because I thought I hadn't misread your post too much.
If you vote for Jeremy Corbyn you most certainly are wrong because he would be a disaster for the country.
You would be definitely, categorically, this is the one objective truth, incontrovertibly wrong.
In which case you'll need to alter your approach when facing people who disagree with you because at the moment its not working.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
The damage to the UK will be done by the EU who will be bloody difficult dealing with the recalcitrant ex-member and impose a punitive Brexit pour encourager les autres. I expect the relationship between the EU and the UK post 29/3/19 to be similar to be that between them and other major countries close to but not fully within Europe, namely Russia and Turkey.
No, the damage to the UK will be completely self inflicted.
I agree. The question becomes how quickly the damage can be repaired, and whether we are better off in the long term.
I'm bemused by the way some hardcore leavers (though not all) seem to think that our negotiating position is fine and moral, whilst theirs is nasty and evil.
It was always obvious that there was going to be some pour encourager les autres in the EU's position - because that's in their interest. They're going for what they think is right for them, just as we are for ourselves. It then becomes a question of who has the better hand of cards.
On the other hand, we have some prominent leavers who want not just to leave the EU, but for the EU to be destroyed. This was not a position designed to help negotiations.
All things being equal, we will also be worse off long term. The longer you go out the less likely things will be equal. It doesn't mean necessarily they will get better and repair the damage; they could get even worse. The main thing is that long term we stop worrying and live with it.
The EU's principal objective is to keep the show on the road. They want us out with the least damage to them and where possible for the damage to fall on us rather than them. Beyond that and after the initial shock they are not that interested in Brexit. It's an unwelcome distraction for them. I wouldn't overstress the punishment aspect. There's a deal to be done, but they won't offer any favours. That's why the May/Davis approach has been submitted wrong headed.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
It neatly encapsulates the obssesive anti-European, Atlanticist right who are prepared to inflict immense damage on the UK's citizens and the country's international standing in order to turn us into a low regulation offshore island. I find that pretty offensive. Trump's toxicity and the general election result have scuppered them. Rejoice!
Bollocks. They are just passionate advocates of an independent self-governing Britain, that's all. They don't get everything right, by all means, but they don't deserve the insults you throw at them.
You need to have a lie down.
Ha, ha - they called people like me citizens of nowhere, saboteurs and enemies of the people. They are not passionate, they are cynical and mendacious plastic patriots with no interest whatsoever in the UK's good standing or the welfare of its citizens. I will not take that lying down. I am British, after all.
Yep - this is precisely why the election result filled me with so much joy. The swivel-eyed, Brexit right lost its power to wreak untold damage on the UK.
I think a fine system should be introduced for every time you use 'swivel-eyed'.
Hugely offensive.
Snowflake.
Where's that list?
Just a joke, turning the tables really ;-) However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today. Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
I used "plank" gratuitously and deliberately to highlight the stupidity of those Remainers who think public opinion is with them. To emphasise my point, to them the majority are "swivel eyed".
Ah..I see you meant in our exchange that Remainers were ignoring public opinion (or thinking that it was one thing when the poll said it was another).
Apols; I thought you had meant that as the public was in favour of something, it was right.
I meant both.
If I believe in something Father Christmas you have every right to call me names, if I vote for Corbyn (along with millions of others) I am not wrong.
Its called democracy mate, one man one vote, not one person telling others they're wrong to prefer one politician over another.
Ah good because I thought I hadn't misread your post too much.
If you vote for Jeremy Corbyn you most certainly are wrong because he would be a disaster for the country.
You would be definitely, categorically, this is the one objective truth, incontrovertibly wrong.
In which case you'll need to alter your approach when facing people who disagree with you because at the moment its not working.
Simply saying YOU'RE WRONG isn't enough.
We have come to a pretty pass when it is necessary to explain how much of a catastrophe a Jeremy Corbyn-led government would be for the country.
Bit surprised Ladbrokes don't appear to have a market at all any more. Would've thought they'd make Cable 1.02 or something daft and try to tempt punters into backing others.
From a betting perspective, Cable's fine for me, though I think he's a poor choice. Damned shame Lamb ruled himself out.
Sadly, I have messed up on this one. Original bet had a bit of a joke bet on Carmicheal during the GE campaign as I thought he might end up being leader by default. Then bet on Swinson, who dropped out, and Davey, who kept me hanging on and then dropped out.
Comments
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-40408576
People want reasonable services, there is a time lag but it's getting through that more money is needed. I'm afraid that this will help Corbyn most.
Finding £1,000,000,000 for 10 DUP members votes, but making emergency services personnel poorer by giving sub-inflation rises is not a good look for the Tories.
"Labour is to table an amendment to the Queen's Speech calling for the 1% public sector pay cap and cuts to the police and emergency services to end."
http://uk.businessinsider.com/eu-citizens-living-in-uk-will-need-identity-cards-after-brexit-2017-6
""The government announcement on EU citizens leaves so much in doubt. From the description it seems as if this is ID cards by the backdoor," Liberal Democrat MP Ed Davey said.
"David Davis resigned his seat and caused a by-election because he was disgusted by the assault on civil liberties by the then Labour government. What will he do this time round?
However, Brexit secretary David Davis on Monday denied claims from the opposition benches that the documents would amount to an ID card for EU citizens.
"It is not an ID card," he said in the House of Commons.
"We are talking about documentation to prove that people have the right to a job and the right to residence, but they will not have to carry that around all the time. It is not an ID card; it is rather like your birth certificate. It’s not an ID card!""
What we do know is that the government is proposing EU citizens will have the equivalent of settled status post-Brexit. As things stand, those with settled status generally cannot vote in local elections.
Yeah....is that higher taxes for themselves or for other people?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-the-papers-40425839
The "rich" start with people who earn just a little bit more than I do, whatever that is.
I have been saying that the government should increase spending on the NHS, education, and public services. I'm not sure that a higher marginal rate would pay for that, then again, as we are now not due to balance the books until 2025, there is some wiggle room.
There needs to be some kind of fiscal stimulus also.
https://www.ringtv.com/503429-shocking-floyd-mayweather-conor-mcgregor-betting-odds-explained/
-2500 = 1.04, What the bookie thinks the true odds should be
-725 = 1.14, Where the odds are now.
He might start even longer.
"76% of people said the UK should leave the EU or that if it stays the EU's powers should be reduced, up from 65% in 2015."
Yet still the planks on here persist with their nonsense.
http://www.aec.gov.au/Enrolling_to_vote/British_subjects.htm
We could phase out Commonweatlth voting by a similar law, only affecting new registrations.
D'unt mean they're right.
Project Fear failed, you persist with the same rubbish but nobody is listening. According to the BBC 75% want to leave the EU, we're sick of it.
Hugely offensive.
Of course they can think that way and their views are very relevant (to the question of who should be PM).
But it doesn't mean they are right.
I'm bemused by the way some hardcore leavers (though not all) seem to think that our negotiating position is fine and moral, whilst theirs is nasty and evil.
It was always obvious that there was going to be some pour encourager les autres in the EU's position - because that's in their interest. They're going for what they think is right for them, just as we are for ourselves. It then becomes a question of who has the better hand of cards.
On the other hand, we have some prominent leavers who want not just to leave the EU, but for the EU to be destroyed. This was not a position designed to help negotiations.
edit/ BBC reporting that the Tories "can rely on the DUP to vote it down". No guesses as to who fed them that line. A welcome to government for the DUP...
Which is rational?
It'll only be the Little Englanders left soon.
You need to have a lie down.
The willingness of Ministers to disagree more or less openly is the much more significant story today. The European view is increasingly that it's hard to negotiate Brexit since we neither know exactly what we want nor are able to agree on the details among ourselves. May needs to bite the bullet and have a reshuffle that gets rid of one side or the other, and then dare the losers to bring the Government down (they won't). Going into the serious talks with the current Cabinet-as-debating-club is going to be a serious handicap. This isn't a partisan point- I would rather she fired the hard Brexit people but really a consistent Cabinet either way would be better.
Stick to the arguments. As soon as it gets personal, I know you're on shaky ground.
However, do you think that 'swivel-eyed' is worse than being called a 'plank'. Both are used about anti and pro EU posts respectively today.
Personally I dislike that sort of insult but can't get too worked up about it. I certainly don't think that it was 'Hugely offensive'.
See my post above.
Mr Smithson should change the name to www.virtuesignalling.com
Apols; I thought you had meant that as the public was in favour of something, it was right.
If I believe in Father Christmas you have every right to call me names, if I vote for Corbyn (along with millions of others) I am not wrong.
Its called democracy mate, one man one vote, not one person telling others they're wrong to prefer one politician over another.
If you vote for Jeremy Corbyn you most certainly are wrong because he would be a disaster for the country.
You would be definitely, categorically, this is the one objective truth, incontrovertibly wrong.
From now on I'm calling Remainers King Canuters, he got a bit wet despite his protests.
Bit surprised Ladbrokes don't appear to have a market at all any more. Would've thought they'd make Cable 1.02 or something daft and try to tempt punters into backing others.
From a betting perspective, Cable's fine for me, though I think he's a poor choice. Damned shame Lamb ruled himself out.
Simply saying YOU'RE WRONG isn't enough.
The EU's principal objective is to keep the show on the road. They want us out with the least damage to them and where possible for the damage to fall on us rather than them. Beyond that and after the initial shock they are not that interested in Brexit. It's an unwelcome distraction for them. I wouldn't overstress the punishment aspect. There's a deal to be done, but they won't offer any favours. That's why the May/Davis approach has been submitted wrong headed.
:-(