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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Corbyn now Betfair favourite to be PM after TMay

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    ChrisChris Posts: 11,150
    Jonathan said:

    Apparently the real Theresa May resigned weeks ago. What we have now is a stooge wearing her clothes being fed lines via a hidden earpiece.

    Sounds uncannily like what happened in the fifth season of "Buffy the Vampire Slayer".

    As I remember, the BuffyBot came to a sticky end.
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,232
    edited June 2017

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    Both could do Cabinet Minister but did not have the charisma or empathy for party leader or PM sadly, as PB probably has an above average percentage on the autistic spectrum to some degree, including most probably myself I expect we can empathise a little with Brown and May
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,464
    4/1 is ludicrously long for a LotO in a hung parliament.
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    PatrickPatrick Posts: 225

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    With Brown we got all the Prime Mentalist stuff. Not autistic but just straightforwardly psychotic. He was and is a complete loon - quite unsuited temperamentally to being PM.
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    nichomarnichomar Posts: 7,483
    I wonder how the residents of the tower just next to Grenfell can cope with the stress and not unreasonable fears?
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    MarkSeniorMarkSenior Posts: 4,699
    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:
    Why is the Indy bringing up a 2013 article now ?
    Because it feeds into the media narrative.

    Rather than do their job and report, the media smell blood and are driving the agenda towards some sort of climactic event. They probably won't relent now until May is out, or Javid is fired etc.

    There has to be some sacrifice to sate the media-inspired "public anger".

    Britain, in 2017.
    May should do the decent and honourable thing and resign and the rest of this shower of sh1t government should follow .
    May and the government got 42% of the vote and almost 60 more seats than Labour whether you like it or not, there may be a new Tory leader before the next general election but the government is not going anywhere
    I actually agree with you , the government whoever leads it , will stagger on from crisis to crisis losing ever more voter support until it finally gets booted out and receives a lower vote share in the next GE below that of 1997 . Zombies clinging to power for as long as they can .
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    PaulMPaulM Posts: 613
    Dura_Ace said:

    If so, why would they hate the Corbynator so much?

    Arlene Foster was on a bus that got blew up by The 'RA when she was young so she might be a bit salty about JC's unwholesome obsession with men in balaclavas and ill-fitting DPM jackets.
    The Provos also tried to kill her father who was a part time RUC man, attacking him at the family farm and shooting him in the head.
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    calumcalum Posts: 3,046
    PClipp said:

    Disquiet with Mrs May is becoming a crescendo.
    Her performance at Grenfell towers is becoming an issue.
    How do you solve a problem like Theresa?

    https://twitter.com/MrHarryCole/status/875678337221394432

    Surely the time has come to lay off Mrs May. Talk about kicking someone while they are down!
    Conservatives always kick people when they are down. It`s what they do.
    TM & MSM spent 7 weeks kicking JC - karma kicking in !
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    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,464

    I expect the MPs writing letters are all paying extra for same day delivery.

    If they'd written them yesterday, they could have saved the postman the trouble and delivered them by hand.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    Most successful scientists are Aspies as well
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    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038
    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    The two best leaders they never had are old now but still pretty combative and able to think on their feet: Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke.

    Speaking as a non-Tory I think unless you're led by a One Nation Tory who really believes that we're all in this together you'll lose to Corbyn. I agree with him on most things except the EU and political correctness/free speech (I like the EU to the extent the Greens and Lib.Dems like it.)

    Soubry's of electable age. Who else? The selection process since Thatcher seems to have populated the Tory back benches with too many right-wingers who think

    there's no such thing as society
    the EU is a Commie or German plot, i.e. (c) the late Nicholas Ridley.
  • Options
    When everyone in northern Ireland insists that something that happened yesterday is a direct consequence of something that happened 300 years ago, the idea that the DUP will forget their differences with the IRA because it was all 20 years ago is pretty bizarre.
  • Options
    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,950
    edited June 2017
    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Kwasi Kwarteng
    David Davis
    Steve Baker
    Dominic Raab
    etc
    There's any number of good, sensible and EMPATHETIC Tories to choose from.
    Three of those four aren't in the Cabinet though?

    It would be fine to go for someone like Kwasi as LOTO but your talking about Con Leader AND PM which makes the potential field much smaller.

    Of course they could go for a junior minister or backbencher if they was willing to have an almost immediate election to secure a mandate... But that would be a "risk" to say the least...
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548
    On the one hand it is all the new media, twitter, etc and who on earth should take any notice of that; on the other that is the media today and just like The Sun, they could win it.

    On balance, for the country's sake I think she should stay. I think for all the reasons rehearsed here she is deeply flawed (although we only had her and Leadsom to choose from - some choice) but she now needs to turn that roboticism into a strength, as it was perceived to be when she took office. The country really doesn't need another election of any kind. When things have settled down she can leave.

    As well as the very sensible @DecrepitJohnL's suggestions above, she should invite a few more Remainers into Cabinet with some fanfare. Whatever the vote meant on June 8th, the mood music is a softer Brexit. She needs to have a GOATs but one that is Conservative GOATs, not cross-party.

    By all means bring Soubry in for heaven's sake (there are plenty more sensible Remainers) and then when, should she dare again to say "Brexit means Brexit", we all know that we have a stake in obtaining the kind of Brexit we want.
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    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,814
    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 76,036
    nichomar said:

    I wonder how the residents of the tower just next to Grenfell can cope with the stress and not unreasonable fears?

    Worried. Even people in "luxury" flats might be concerned I think.........
    I'd hat to be selling a London flat right about now, I think @MaxPB sold up at the right time to be honest.
    #PeakLondon
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    SeanT said:



    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/

    I don't agree at all with the tendency, without any clinical evidence or individual contact with the 'patient', to diagnose politicians and others with medical conditions.

    It's dangerous because it tends to mean the underlying condition is used as a form of insult, on minimal evidence, further marginalising those who actually have the condition.

    So Trump is said by some to have early stage dementia, and May mild autism. There's no seriously credible evidence for either diagnosis. It's also perfectly possible, indeed far more likely in my view, that Trump is just a bit of a sh1t, and May is just somewhat introverted and lacking in political judgment. Those aren't medical conditions - we all lie somewhere on both those spectrums.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,232
    edited June 2017
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    Mitt Romney and Al Gore and maybe even Hillary and Nixon also probably had it to some degree
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,232

    HYUFD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    DavidL said:
    Why is the Indy bringing up a 2013 article now ?
    Because it feeds into the media narrative.

    Rather than do their job and report, the media smell blood and are driving the agenda towards some sort of climactic event. They probably won't relent now until May is out, or Javid is fired etc.

    There has to be some sacrifice to sate the media-inspired "public anger".

    Britain, in 2017.
    May should do the decent and honourable thing and resign and the rest of this shower of sh1t government should follow .
    May and the government got 42% of the vote and almost 60 more seats than Labour whether you like it or not, there may be a new Tory leader before the next general election but the government is not going anywhere
    I actually agree with you , the government whoever leads it , will stagger on from crisis to crisis losing ever more voter support until it finally gets booted out and receives a lower vote share in the next GE below that of 1997 . Zombies clinging to power for as long as they can .
    Not necessarily if the Tories get the right leader and dump the dementia tax and do a less hard Brexit they could do a Major 1992
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    The two best leaders they never had are old now but still pretty combative and able to think on their feet: Michael Heseltine, Ken Clarke.

    Speaking as a non-Tory I think unless you're led by a One Nation Tory who really believes that we're all in this together you'll lose to Corbyn. I agree with him on most things except the EU and political correctness/free speech (I like the EU to the extent the Greens and Lib.Dems like it.)

    Soubry's of electable age. Who else? The selection process since Thatcher seems to have populated the Tory back benches with too many right-wingers who think

    there's no such thing as society
    the EU is a Commie or German plot, i.e. (c) the late Nicholas Ridley.
    That's a good point - are there any One Nation tories available?
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    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    I really don't think you can judge whether someone is on the autistic spectrum by watching them on the telly, however used they might be to being on the telly.

    If anything its a bit unusual for someone not to change when a camera is shoved in front of them.

  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,814
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    How the f*ck did this happen, though?

    It started so well. The decisive clear-out. The determined speech on the gates of Downing Street. The first PMQs with the Thatcheresque slapdown of Corbyn, "REMIND him of anybody?", the bitch-slap of Robertson and the work over the Summer on the Brexit position for Conference, the Speech to Congress..

    And then.. the honeymoon continued... and continued... and continued.. no-one was sure why. She was like Boudicca.

    And then it all blew up in her face with barely 3 weeks to go till the General Election.

    Why?

    HOW?
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    When everyone in northern Ireland insists that something that happened yesterday is a direct consequence of something that happened 300 years ago, the idea that the DUP will forget their differences with the IRA because it was all 20 years ago is pretty bizarre.

    Over here people inherit property, money, etc. Over there, they inherit the family grudge, vendetta, etc.

    It is one reason I never felt compelled to return after I made my escape.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    How the f*ck did this happen, though?

    It started so well. The decisive clear-out. The determined speech on the gates of Downing Street. The first PMQs with the Thatcheresque slapdown of Corbyn, "REMIND him of anybody?", the bitch-slap of Robertson and the work over the Summer on the Brexit position for Conference, the Speech to Congress..

    And then.. the honeymoon continued... and continued... and continued.. no-one was sure why. She was like Boudicca.

    And then it all blew up in her face with barely 3 weeks to go till the General Election.

    Why?

    HOW?
    Because being PM is not like running the Home Office.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,444
    The more I read about it, the more information that comes out, the more I think the Grenfell Tower disaster will be a pivotal force for change:

    1. A building seemingly with no functioning alarm system, or sprinkler, or fire protection, with dodgy electrics, with cladding that flashes into flame added at lowest possible cost
    2. Building managed for profit by a company seemingly more interested in threatening legal action against worried residents than listening to their valid concerns
    3. Assurances that the building code was followed - which raises questions about the validity of the code and the thousands of other high rise blocks housing similar low income communities
    4. Recommendations dodged by the Tories in the last parliament after the Camberwell fire, the vote against ensuring housing is fit for habitation, the warnings that cuts to fire cover would be dangerous, and now May/Barwell etc running for cover

    It stinks of an establishment sweeping the poor and dispossessed out of the way, making their unsafe block look pretty, then spending the least possible on it. And we've been here before in the 60s, with unsafe and disfunctional social housing built to become unlivable or dangerous very quickly.

    I can't see how this doesn't further accelerate the growing mood of "enough is enough" amongst large numbers of people when it comes to cuts and the abusive attitude to the poor/sick/foreign so beloved by Dacre and many Tories. And yes, I am politicising something that is by definition political. This is the end result when saving money is the priority over safety.
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    NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    My problem with Davis stems from his flounce out when he resigned his seat and caused an unnecessary by-election. I don't fully trust the guy tbh.
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,584

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.
    There isn't a single problem we face to which Boris is the answer. His only asset is an ability to change his mind and usually get away with it. But the fact that so many people, including at least one foreign ambassador, are telling not to go there, is a hint that we should take.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,481
    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    As the parent of a son on the autistic spectrum, please don't be offended but I am afraid your sweeping generalizations regarding autism are no more than prejudiced nonsense.

    Mrs May perhaps finds socialising with people she meets from a different social strata to herself with some discomfort. That may have more to do her upbringing than the likelihood of her being on the spectrum. I suspect Mrs May is reasonably comfortable with her peers in the Conservative Party. My son finds it difficult to socialise on any level, and let me tell you the condition is no joke.
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    Boris Johnson is on that list. Doesn't sound the least bit plausible.
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,852
    Might as well get it out the way. The only thing that matters for us now is the transition/continuity arrangement and that gets decided last, after the divorce terms and the agreed final desitination
  • Options
    david_herdsondavid_herdson Posts: 17,464

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    If Ken Clarke is prepared to let David Davis continue then it would be the best solution as he is guaranteed to be temporary till a proper leadership election is called, is popular and would wipe the floor with Corbyn. He also exudes competence and a steady nerve.
    I doubt that the PCP would be comfortable with Ken leading the Brexit negotiations. The best that Clarke might do is serve as a temporary PM during a leadership election, though surely May would stay on anyway.

    No, Davis himself might be the best bet. That's not saying he's not without flaws and negatives but then who isn't?
  • Options
    FensterFenster Posts: 2,115
    edited June 2017
    I think the Tories need to have their own internal COBRA meeting and do something quickly.

    May has to go. 100%. She's mentally shot.

    If it is a Davis coronation, I'm happy with that. But I'd like to see people like William Hague and Michael Howard brought in from the Lords and given seats in cabinet. May made a fucking mess of things and the country needs some serious, urgent, greybeard stability.

    And Corbyn needs to be kept out of office. The naive idealism of youth seems to be contagious, and there is a very (un)real prospect of Mcdonnell ended up in the Treasury if more of them vote.

    I don't mind a few risks. But McDonnell and co would be a risk too far.
  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,232
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    Ed Miliband and Osborne are also on the aspie list and Boris is said to have a few traits but not full aspie
  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    How the f*ck did this happen, though?

    It started so well. The decisive clear-out. The determined speech on the gates of Downing Street. The first PMQs with the Thatcheresque slapdown of Corbyn, "REMIND him of anybody?", the bitch-slap of Robertson and the work over the Summer on the Brexit position for Conference, the Speech to Congress..

    And then.. the honeymoon continued... and continued... and continued.. no-one was sure why. She was like Boudicca.

    And then it all blew up in her face with barely 3 weeks to go till the General Election.

    Why?

    HOW?
    It was a bubble. She believed their own hype, got greedy and careless. When faced with reality she catastrophically lost confidence and never recovered.

  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548

    The more I read about it, the more information that comes out, the more I think the Grenfell Tower disaster will be a pivotal force for change:

    1. A building seemingly with no functioning alarm system, or sprinkler, or fire protection, with dodgy electrics, with cladding that flashes into flame added at lowest possible cost
    2. Building managed for profit by a company seemingly more interested in threatening legal action against worried residents than listening to their valid concerns
    3. Assurances that the building code was followed - which raises questions about the validity of the code and the thousands of other high rise blocks housing similar low income communities
    4. Recommendations dodged by the Tories in the last parliament after the Camberwell fire, the vote against ensuring housing is fit for habitation, the warnings that cuts to fire cover would be dangerous, and now May/Barwell etc running for cover

    It stinks of an establishment sweeping the poor and dispossessed out of the way, making their unsafe block look pretty, then spending the least possible on it. And we've been here before in the 60s, with unsafe and disfunctional social housing built to become unlivable or dangerous very quickly.

    I can't see how this doesn't further accelerate the growing mood of "enough is enough" amongst large numbers of people when it comes to cuts and the abusive attitude to the poor/sick/foreign so beloved by Dacre and many Tories. And yes, I am politicising something that is by definition political. This is the end result when saving money is the priority over safety.

    My guess is that there will be enough evidence that both Lab and Cons ignored or postponed critical advice and decisions.

    And talking of personality traits, you seem to have done a full Liz Kendall.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.

    Davis thought we could do a trade deal with Germany after Brexit. His competence and knowledge of detail are far from proved. As for gravitas, it is in the eye of the beholder!

  • Options
    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,232

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    As the parent of a son on the autistic spectrum, please don't be offended but I am afraid your sweeping generalizations regarding autism are no more than prejudiced nonsense.

    Mrs May perhaps finds socialising with people she meets from a different social strata to herself with some discomfort. That may have more to do her upbringing than the likelihood of her being on the spectrum. I suspect Mrs May is reasonably comfortable with her peers in the Conservative Party. My son finds it difficult to socialise on any level, and let me tell you the condition is no joke.
    May's father was a Vicar like Brown so she would have had to mix with his parishioners
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    As the parent of a son on the autistic spectrum, please don't be offended but I am afraid your sweeping generalizations regarding autism are no more than prejudiced nonsense.

    Mrs May perhaps finds socialising with people she meets from a different social strata to herself with some discomfort. That may have more to do her upbringing than the likelihood of her being on the spectrum. I suspect Mrs May is reasonably comfortable with her peers in the Conservative Party. My son finds it difficult to socialise on any level, and let me tell you the condition is no joke.
    I disagree strongly with one part of your comment: I hope to fuck Sean is offended.

    His was a lazy, casual, ill-informed comment and he should realise what a dick he is.
  • Options
    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400
    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Kwasi Kwarteng
    David Davis
    Steve Baker
    Dominic Raab
    etc
    There's any number of good, sensible and EMPATHETIC Tories to choose from.
    There are plenty of good Tory MPs, the problem is the party itself is split on the issue of whether Britain should be business friendly and open to the world or isolationist / protectionist.

    No leader can paper over that divide and since it is the most important issue facing the country at the moment, it leaves the party paralysed.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Davis thought we could do a trade deal with Germany after Brexit. His competence and knowledge of detail are far from proved. As for gravitas, it is in the eye of the beholder!

    Well, after Brexit, Germany will be the EU so he may have a point ;)

  • Options
    JonathanJonathan Posts: 20,913
    JonathanD said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Kwasi Kwarteng
    David Davis
    Steve Baker
    Dominic Raab
    etc
    There's any number of good, sensible and EMPATHETIC Tories to choose from.
    There are plenty of good Tory MPs, the problem is the party itself is split on the issue of whether Britain should be business friendly and open to the world or isolationist / protectionist.

    No leader can paper over that divide and since it is the most important issue facing the country at the moment, it leaves the party paralysed.
    Corn Laws 2.0
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,444
    TOPPING said:

    And talking of personality traits, you seem to have done a full Liz Kendall.

    As Victor Hugo once asked of his publisher, ?
  • Options
    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739
    Fenster said:

    I think the Tories need to have their own internal COBRA meeting and do something quickly.

    May has to go. 100%. She's mentally shot.

    If it is a Davis coronation, I'm happy with that. But I'd like to see people like William Hague and Michael Howard brought in from the Lords and given seats in cabinet. May made a fucking mess of things and the country needs some serious, urgent, greybeard stability.

    And Corbyn needs to be kept out of office. The naive idealism of youth seems to be contagious, and there is a very (un)real prospect of Mcdonnell ended up in the Treasury if more of them vote.

    I don't mind a few risks. But McDonnell and co would be a risk too far.

    With all you suggest, it's still a minority administration with a difficult task. Is it likely to get more popular as time passes?
  • Options
    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,481
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    As the parent of a son on the autistic spectrum, please don't be offended but I am afraid your sweeping generalizations regarding autism are no more than prejudiced nonsense.

    Mrs May perhaps finds socialising with people she meets from a different social strata to herself with some discomfort. That may have more to do her upbringing than the likelihood of her being on the spectrum. I suspect Mrs May is reasonably comfortable with her peers in the Conservative Party. My son finds it difficult to socialise on any level, and let me tell you the condition is no joke.
    Yeah, well you can do one, as I also have close relatives on the spectrum, so I know whereof I speak.
    Classy guy!
  • Options
    SlackbladderSlackbladder Posts: 9,713

    The more I read about it, the more information that comes out, the more I think the Grenfell Tower disaster will be a pivotal force for change:

    1. A building seemingly with no functioning alarm system, or sprinkler, or fire protection, with dodgy electrics, with cladding that flashes into flame added at lowest possible cost
    2. Building managed for profit by a company seemingly more interested in threatening legal action against worried residents than listening to their valid concerns
    3. Assurances that the building code was followed - which raises questions about the validity of the code and the thousands of other high rise blocks housing similar low income communities
    4. Recommendations dodged by the Tories in the last parliament after the Camberwell fire, the vote against ensuring housing is fit for habitation, the warnings that cuts to fire cover would be dangerous, and now May/Barwell etc running for cover

    It stinks of an establishment sweeping the poor and dispossessed out of the way, making their unsafe block look pretty, then spending the least possible on it. And we've been here before in the 60s, with unsafe and disfunctional social housing built to become unlivable or dangerous very quickly.

    I can't see how this doesn't further accelerate the growing mood of "enough is enough" amongst large numbers of people when it comes to cuts and the abusive attitude to the poor/sick/foreign so beloved by Dacre and many Tories. And yes, I am politicising something that is by definition political. This is the end result when saving money is the priority over safety.

    Ignorant. KCTMO is a non-profit company.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,814

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.

    Davis thought we could do a trade deal with Germany after Brexit. His competence and knowledge of detail are far from proved. As for gravitas, it is in the eye of the beholder!

    Citation?
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548

    TOPPING said:

    And talking of personality traits, you seem to have done a full Liz Kendall.

    As Victor Hugo once asked of his publisher, ?
    You as I remember were fervently anti-Jezza and now you are rowing in behind the Labour party as though it was divorced from anything to do with Jezza/Macca/Dazza.

    (!)
  • Options
    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,852

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    How the f*ck did this happen, though?

    It started so well. The decisive clear-out. The determined speech on the gates of Downing Street. The first PMQs with the Thatcheresque slapdown of Corbyn, "REMIND him of anybody?", the bitch-slap of Robertson and the work over the Summer on the Brexit position for Conference, the Speech to Congress..

    And then.. the honeymoon continued... and continued... and continued.. no-one was sure why. She was like Boudicca.

    And then it all blew up in her face with barely 3 weeks to go till the General Election.

    Why?

    HOW?
    I admit I was surprised people were taken in for so long. I thought she was the best available at the time of her election. It took me two weeks, maybe a month, to realise she was a toom tabard, empty coat.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,814
    IanB2 said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.
    There isn't a single problem we face to which Boris is the answer. His only asset is an ability to change his mind and usually get away with it. But the fact that so many people, including at least one foreign ambassador, are telling not to go there, is a hint that we should take.
    Agreed.
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 61,031
    Mr. T, on a similar note, the exercise form of purging in bulimia means it may be radically under-diagnosed in men (who would say a man who eats a lot and exercises a shitload and is ripped has an eating disorder?).

    However, there's also a trend to pathologise every little quirk or eccentricity, and I do think we overdo slapping labels on every action and every person that falls even a little bit outside the norm.

    Anyway, I must be off.
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    JonathanD said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Kwasi Kwarteng
    David Davis
    Steve Baker
    Dominic Raab
    etc
    There's any number of good, sensible and EMPATHETIC Tories to choose from.
    There are plenty of good Tory MPs, the problem is the party itself is split on the issue of whether Britain should be business friendly and open to the world or isolationist / protectionist.

    No leader can paper over that divide and since it is the most important issue facing the country at the moment, it leaves the party paralysed.
    I don't think the Tory party is split on that issue at all. Both the Leavers and Remainers want open trade with the rest of the world and with the EU as much as possible. Any barriers to that are more likely to be imposed by the EU than by a Tory led British Government.

    You make the mistake - certainly where the Tory party is concerned - of equating Brexit with protectionism. If anything it is exactly the reverse.
  • Options
    Casino_RoyaleCasino_Royale Posts: 55,814
    Jonathan said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    How the f*ck did this happen, though?

    It started so well. The decisive clear-out. The determined speech on the gates of Downing Street. The first PMQs with the Thatcheresque slapdown of Corbyn, "REMIND him of anybody?", the bitch-slap of Robertson and the work over the Summer on the Brexit position for Conference, the Speech to Congress..

    And then.. the honeymoon continued... and continued... and continued.. no-one was sure why. She was like Boudicca.

    And then it all blew up in her face with barely 3 weeks to go till the General Election.

    Why?

    HOW?
    It was a bubble. She believed their own hype, got greedy and careless. When faced with reality she catastrophically lost confidence and never recovered.

    Yes, I think so.
  • Options
    NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    SeanT said:

    Fenster said:

    I think the Tories need to have their own internal COBRA meeting and do something quickly.

    May has to go. 100%. She's mentally shot.

    If it is a Davis coronation, I'm happy with that. But I'd like to see people like William Hague and Michael Howard brought in from the Lords and given seats in cabinet. May made a fucking mess of things and the country needs some serious, urgent, greybeard stability.

    And Corbyn needs to be kept out of office. The naive idealism of youth seems to be contagious, and there is a very (un)real prospect of Mcdonnell ended up in the Treasury if more of them vote.

    I don't mind a few risks. But McDonnell and co would be a risk too far.

    With all you suggest, it's still a minority administration with a difficult task. Is it likely to get more popular as time passes?
    The one good reason to keep TMay in place is - as someone else eloquently put it on here - as a kind of pinata. To absorb all the flak and vitriol from brexit, and everything else. When Breit is done she can resign, with honour, having taken all the punishment, and the Tories can rebrand under a different leader.

    But, without labouring the point, I wonder if she can cope with it, mentally. A horrible position to be in. I have great sympathy for her, despite her errors.
    Indeed so. The new DPM could help out but Damian Green is a charisma free zone.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    As the parent of a son on the autistic spectrum, please don't be offended but I am afraid your sweeping generalizations regarding autism are no more than prejudiced nonsense.

    Mrs May perhaps finds socialising with people she meets from a different social strata to herself with some discomfort. That may have more to do her upbringing than the likelihood of her being on the spectrum. I suspect Mrs May is reasonably comfortable with her peers in the Conservative Party. My son finds it difficult to socialise on any level, and let me tell you the condition is no joke.
    I disagree strongly with one part of your comment: I hope to fuck Sean is offended.

    His was a lazy, casual, ill-informed comment and he should realise what a dick he is.
    Fuck off old boy. I have close relatives diagnosed with this.
    Yep they must be proud of you showing off your extensive clinical knowledge with an internet chat group.
  • Options
    nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    theakes said:

    If you were the DUP would you want to be associated with this shambolic out of touch bunch called the government?

    I think the Tories could be too toxic for the DUP!
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.

    Davis thought we could do a trade deal with Germany after Brexit. His competence and knowledge of detail are far from proved. As for gravitas, it is in the eye of the beholder!

    If you think we can't do a trade deal with Germany - and the rest of the EU - then frankly you are deluded. It may not be straight forward but both sides will do a deal eventually.
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.

    Davis thought we could do a trade deal with Germany after Brexit. His competence and knowledge of detail are far from proved. As for gravitas, it is in the eye of the beholder!

    Citation?
    “Post Brexit a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else,” he said on 26 May this year.

    “Similar deals would be reached with other key EU nations. France would want to protect £3 billion of food and wine exports. Italy, its £1 billion fashion exports. Poland its £3 billion manufacturing exports.”


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/minister-for-brexit-davis-davis-eu-european-union-germany-single-market-trade-deals-unaware-mistake-a7136121.html
  • Options
    SeanT said:



    Fair enough. And I will continue with my diagnostic speculations. Also, you're simply wrong about Trump, there is serious evidence that his syntax and vocabulary are both decayed. He used to be very articulate, believe it or not.

    And Tony Blair was a pathological narcissist. I defy ANYONE to disagree with that.

    I completely disagree with this.

    In Trump's case, as people get older, they tend to decline in aspects of cognitive function. That's not a clinical diagnosis; that's life. Someone who trips over their words a bit more, or forgets what they went into the room for more often doesn't (necessarily) have early stage Alzheimer's any more than somebody who isn't as good at the triple jump as they were 50 years ago necessarily has early stage Parkinson's.

    That's not to say older people can't do top jobs. Their cognitive function may have started from a very high base or, to the extent some elements have declined, they may more than make up for it in experience and accumulated wisdom (or, in Trump's case, not).

    There's a huge danger in relation to mental conditions that people see them all as one big spectrum in the way that there's a spectrum between having a good memory and a poor one, or between being introverted and extroverted. There is, in most of these conditions, a qualitative difference between having the condition or not, with real differences for the life of the sufferer.

    In relation to Blair, I just don't see the need to pin a medical diagnosis on him as if it somehow makes the point more powerful or insightful than saying he's an ar$ehole. It's just a form of insult that might or might not be fair, but isn't any more valid for being put in cod-psychological terms.
  • Options
    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,444
    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    And talking of personality traits, you seem to have done a full Liz Kendall.

    As Victor Hugo once asked of his publisher, ?
    You as I remember were fervently anti-Jezza and now you are rowing in behind the Labour party as though it was divorced from anything to do with Jezza/Macca/Dazza.

    (!)
    I lobbied MPs to put him on the ballot. I donated to his 1st campaign. I recruited people to join the party and become affiliated supporters to vote for him. Its as time went on and Jezbollah became increasingly incoherent that I went right off him. It was never a policy objection, I consider myself on the left of the party and think our manifesto was the best thing we've produced in a long time.

    But like PB Tories I back a winner.
  • Options
    TheuniondivvieTheuniondivvie Posts: 40,399
    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Kwasi Kwarteng
    David Davis
    Steve Baker
    Dominic Raab
    etc
    There's any number of good, sensible and EMPATHETIC Tories to choose from.
    Give us some then.
  • Options
    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,231
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Didn't get this with Brown? The autism stuff. I dunno, maybe - maybe - they're just not very good at their jobs (like a lot of people aren't)? There doesn't have to be an 'ism' involved.

    I've been researching hi-funct autism for a thriller. I've read everything and I am now convinced she has it, some kind of mild Asperger's.

    Here are some Asperger's people discussing politicians with the syndrome - and they should know, if anyone does. Gordon Brown and May are both on the list

    https://www.aspiescentral.com/threads/british-politicians-with-aspergers.11450/
    Boris Johnson is on that list. Doesn't sound the least bit plausible.
    I agree. BoJo has an unusual persona (apparently he has few close friends, weirdly enough) but Aspies, nah. He empathises well and is genuinely funny.
    I can utterly believe BoJo has few close friends. He's the sort of clown you observe from afar, in fear that if you get to close some of the custard pie will land on your face.

    Fnarr, fnarr .
  • Options
    rural_voterrural_voter Posts: 2,038

    The more I read about it, the more information that comes out, the more I think the Grenfell Tower disaster will be a pivotal force for change:

    1. A building seemingly with no functioning alarm system, or sprinkler, or fire protection, with dodgy electrics, with cladding that flashes into flame added at lowest possible cost
    2. Building managed for profit by a company seemingly more interested in threatening legal action against worried residents than listening to their valid concerns
    3. Assurances that the building code was followed - which raises questions about the validity of the code and the thousands of other high rise blocks housing similar low income communities
    4. Recommendations dodged by the Tories in the last parliament after the Camberwell fire, the vote against ensuring housing is fit for habitation, the warnings that cuts to fire cover would be dangerous, and now May/Barwell etc running for cover

    It stinks of an establishment sweeping the poor and dispossessed out of the way, making their unsafe block look pretty, then spending the least possible on it. And we've been here before in the 60s, with unsafe and disfunctional social housing built to become unlivable or dangerous very quickly.

    I can't see how this doesn't further accelerate the growing mood of "enough is enough" amongst large numbers of people when it comes to cuts and the abusive attitude to the poor/sick/foreign so beloved by Dacre and many Tories. And yes, I am politicising something that is by definition political. This is the end result when saving money is the priority over safety.

    Technically they spent far too much on this block. £120k per flat. They then tried to faff around saving £15 or so per flat with fatal consequences - though I think the lack of compartments may prove to be a key factor which first allowed the fire to spread.

    You can build very good medium-rise, i.e. ~4-storey terraced housing for less than that cost per dwelling. It can be absolutely delightful; look how well the central London squares have aged. You don't need sprinklers either.
  • Options
    NormNorm Posts: 1,251
    Norm said:

    My problem with Davis stems from his flounce out when he resigned his seat and caused an unnecessary by-election. I don't fully trust the guy tbh.

    I should add I'm perfectly happy with DD as Brexit negotiator - it's him in the top job I'd be a little concerned about.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548
    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    TOPPING said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    As the parent of a son on the autistic spectrum, please don't be offended but I am afraid your sweeping generalizations regarding autism are no more than prejudiced nonsense.

    Mrs May perhaps finds socialising with people she meets from a different social strata to herself with some discomfort. That may have more to do her upbringing than the likelihood of her being on the spectrum. I suspect Mrs May is reasonably comfortable with her peers in the Conservative Party. My son finds it difficult to socialise on any level, and let me tell you the condition is no joke.
    I disagree strongly with one part of your comment: I hope to fuck Sean is offended.

    His was a lazy, casual, ill-informed comment and he should realise what a dick he is.
    Fuck off old boy. I have close relatives diagnosed with this.
    Yep they must be proud of you showing off your extensive clinical knowledge with an internet chat group.
    I don't think the obscure reaches of PB or indeed the random, geriatric thoughts of "Topping", on a Friday afternoon when everyone else is working, are much interest to the wider world.

    But this is getting unnecessarily bad tempered. I need to write a thriller. Later.
    see ya
  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.

    Davis thought we could do a trade deal with Germany after Brexit. His competence and knowledge of detail are far from proved. As for gravitas, it is in the eye of the beholder!

    Citation?
    “Post Brexit a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else,” he said on 26 May this year.

    “Similar deals would be reached with other key EU nations. France would want to protect £3 billion of food and wine exports. Italy, its £1 billion fashion exports. Poland its £3 billion manufacturing exports.”


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/minister-for-brexit-davis-davis-eu-european-union-germany-single-market-trade-deals-unaware-mistake-a7136121.html
    Obviously it will be through the auspices of the EU but effectively no matter what they might think it will not be the EU we are looking to secure deals with but Germany and France etc. They are the power houses that we need to get agreement from.
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787

    How the f*ck did this happen, though?

    It started so well. The decisive clear-out. The determined speech on the gates of Downing Street. The first PMQs with the Thatcheresque slapdown of Corbyn, "REMIND him of anybody?", the bitch-slap of Robertson and the work over the Summer on the Brexit position for Conference, the Speech to Congress..

    And then.. the honeymoon continued... and continued... and continued.. no-one was sure why. She was like Boudicca.

    And then it all blew up in her face with barely 3 weeks to go till the General Election.

    Why?

    HOW?

    There were was a combination of factors, both long and short term that converged at the same time :

    1. Continuing dithering on BREXIT and hard BREXIT and failure to address REMAINERS.
    2. General Austerity overload.
    3. NHS limping from crisis to crisis.
    4. Real term cuts to education.
    5. PM not tested before the election.
    6. Dynamic of terrorist attacks and 20,000 fewer police.
    7. Manifesto fiasco - social care mess.
    8. Failure to engage in debate.
    9. Wooden performances during campaign
    10. Limited campaign strategy overseen by favoured advisers.
    11. Little vision or hope for the future.
    12. Completely underestimated Jezza and his campaign and manifesto.
    13. Failed to engage younger voters who this time bothered to vote.
    14. Over reliance on former UKIP voters moving en-masse to Tories.
    15. Failure to engage effectively on social media.
    16. The Sun "wot won it" strategy failed. Mail and Express too.
  • Options
    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548

    TOPPING said:

    TOPPING said:

    And talking of personality traits, you seem to have done a full Liz Kendall.

    As Victor Hugo once asked of his publisher, ?
    You as I remember were fervently anti-Jezza and now you are rowing in behind the Labour party as though it was divorced from anything to do with Jezza/Macca/Dazza.

    (!)
    I lobbied MPs to put him on the ballot. I donated to his 1st campaign. I recruited people to join the party and become affiliated supporters to vote for him. Its as time went on and Jezbollah became increasingly incoherent that I went right off him. It was never a policy objection, I consider myself on the left of the party and think our manifesto was the best thing we've produced in a long time.

    But like PB Tories I back a winner.
    So as he has proven himself, although not a winner, then at least a lot better than popular opinion (on PB!) had him, are you now fully behind him? What do you make of Kendall?

    I of course think he is too left wing for today's Britain but of course that's not to say Britain won't choose him.
  • Options
    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113
    UK abandons strongly-held position immediately on engagement with the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761
  • Options
    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    If you think we can't do a trade deal with Germany - and the rest of the EU - then frankly you are deluded. It may not be straight forward but both sides will do a deal eventually.

    Eventually.... it reminds me of the (Sun Tzu??) proverb that "If you sit by the river for long enough the bodies of all your enemies will float by"

  • Options
    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    Boris has decided to meet possible critics head on:

    "There has sadly been some political game playing about the terrible fire in London. I find it unbelievable that Labour are suggesting that this tragedy was somehow caused by fire service cuts.

    The fire brigade was there astonishingly quickly and performed with great bravery.

    As for the record, fires in London went down 50 per cent in my mayoralty.
    Fire deaths down year after year.

    London has fastest appliance response times in the country.

    Sadiq Khan conducted his own review of the london fire safety plan. If he felt that the provision in Kensington was deficient he had ample budget to change it.

    Any attack on emergency services performance is outrageous politicking by labour."
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,481
    HYUFD said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    As the parent of a son on the autistic spectrum, please don't be offended but I am afraid your sweeping generalizations regarding autism are no more than prejudiced nonsense.

    Mrs May perhaps finds socialising with people she meets from a different social strata to herself with some discomfort. That may have more to do her upbringing than the likelihood of her being on the spectrum. I suspect Mrs May is reasonably comfortable with her peers in the Conservative Party. My son finds it difficult to socialise on any level, and let me tell you the condition is no joke.
    May's father was a Vicar like Brown so she would have had to mix with his parishioners
    ...and that proves what exactly? The old adage of the C of E being the Tory Party at prayer could be relevant. I don't imagine, although I clearly don't know for certain, that she was the sort of vicar's daughter working the soup kitchens outside Temple underground in the 1980s.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    JackW said:

    There were was a combination of factors, both long and short term that converged at the same time :

    1. Continuing dithering on BREXIT and hard BREXIT and failure to address REMAINERS.
    2. General Austerity overload.
    3. NHS limping from crisis to crisis.
    4. Real term cuts to education.
    5. PM not tested before the election.
    6. Dynamic of terrorist attacks and 20,000 fewer police.
    7. Manifesto fiasco - social care mess.
    8. Failure to engage in debate.
    9. Wooden performances during campaign
    10. Limited campaign strategy overseen by favoured advisers.
    11. Little vision or hope for the future.
    12. Completely underestimated Jezza and his campaign and manifesto.
    13. Failed to engage younger voters who this time bothered to vote.
    14. Over reliance on former UKIP voters moving en-masse to Tories.
    15. Failure to engage effectively on social media.
    16. The Sun "wot won it" strategy failed. Mail and Express too.

    And of course the invariable tendency of the media, and to some extent the public, to build 'em up and then knock em' down. As soon as she seemed to have an overwhelming lead she inevitably became a target, and she handled that extemely badly in the ways you've listed.

    Corbyn will of course be in for the same treatment, with more justification, if (God forbid) he ever gets into power.
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    JonathanDJonathanD Posts: 2,400

    JonathanD said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Kwasi Kwarteng
    David Davis
    Steve Baker
    Dominic Raab
    etc
    There's any number of good, sensible and EMPATHETIC Tories to choose from.
    There are plenty of good Tory MPs, the problem is the party itself is split on the issue of whether Britain should be business friendly and open to the world or isolationist / protectionist.

    No leader can paper over that divide and since it is the most important issue facing the country at the moment, it leaves the party paralysed.
    I don't think the Tory party is split on that issue at all. Both the Leavers and Remainers want open trade with the rest of the world and with the EU as much as possible. Any barriers to that are more likely to be imposed by the EU than by a Tory led British Government.

    You make the mistake - certainly where the Tory party is concerned - of equating Brexit with protectionism. If anything it is exactly the reverse.
    May's conference speech and its attack on citizens of nowhere was protectionist. Her energy cap proposal was protectionist as appeared to be the rest of Nick Timothy's output. The focus on driving down net migration at the expense of the economy and the university sector was also protectionist.
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    Beverley_CBeverley_C Posts: 6,256

    UK abandons strongly-held position immediately on engagement with the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761

    The BBC said:

    The UK has agreed to sort out its EU "divorce bill" and citizens' residence rights before starting Brexit trade talks, EU sources have told the BBC.

    So... no Brexit talks for some weeks / months yet? Thank heavens we are using the world's greatest negotiators to seal the Brexit deal before October 2018 when time runs out otherwise I would be worried.
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    tim80tim80 Posts: 99
    FF43 said:

    Might as well get it out the way. The only thing that matters for us now is the transition/continuity arrangement and that gets decided last, after the divorce terms and the agreed final desitination
    It's sensible to discuss it first and explain to the EU that the UK is owed money on a net basis. They can then choose how to respond.
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    Richard_TyndallRichard_Tyndall Posts: 31,048
    JonathanD said:

    JonathanD said:

    Patrick said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    Kwasi Kwarteng
    David Davis
    Steve Baker
    Dominic Raab
    etc
    There's any number of good, sensible and EMPATHETIC Tories to choose from.
    There are plenty of good Tory MPs, the problem is the party itself is split on the issue of whether Britain should be business friendly and open to the world or isolationist / protectionist.

    No leader can paper over that divide and since it is the most important issue facing the country at the moment, it leaves the party paralysed.
    I don't think the Tory party is split on that issue at all. Both the Leavers and Remainers want open trade with the rest of the world and with the EU as much as possible. Any barriers to that are more likely to be imposed by the EU than by a Tory led British Government.

    You make the mistake - certainly where the Tory party is concerned - of equating Brexit with protectionism. If anything it is exactly the reverse.
    May's conference speech and its attack on citizens of nowhere was protectionist. Her energy cap proposal was protectionist as appeared to be the rest of Nick Timothy's output. The focus on driving down net migration at the expense of the economy and the university sector was also protectionist.
    Oh utter bollocks from you there. I might personally be opposed to immigration controls but even I know they are not in any way protectionist as you try to claim. That is just an utterly stupid argument.
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    SirBenjaminSirBenjamin Posts: 238
    Here's a perspective from the high-functioning end of the spectrum. I can only speak for myself, but these traits may well apply to the PM and others:

    'Empathy', whatever that really is, feels like pretending. It generally comes across as empty platitudes that, when expressed, feel fraudulent. I know what I'm *supposed* to do to appear empathetic. I've learned the things to say and to some extent even the body language etc. to the point where some people have actually complimented me on my level of understanding. But internally, I'm playing a game to which I've studied the rules. I know to others it's a genuine thing, but it feels fake, and when I see others doing it, it looks fake. Disingenuous. Going through the motions. Makes me cynical about it, even if - to 'normals' it's entirely heartfelt.

    Those of us with a self-awareness of our AS tendencies can learn to conceal and work around them, but it's a big step outside of our comfort zone and hard to maintain 24/7. We learn to keep our mouths shut rather than open them and risk making things worse.

    For example, when I heard about the Tower fire, most people - unless they're all playing a game too - would've been filled with sadness, compassion, shock. The human reactions we're all supposed and expected to have.

    I knew I had to keep sthtum because I was instinctively thinking things like 'Maybe there's a God and he's punishing Kensington for electing a Labour MP' and 'Ooh, if 20 people die that'll probably wipe out the slim Labour majority'. 'Hundreds of thousands of people die every day across the word, why single out these ones for attention?'... Yep, I know. Totally inappropriate and makes me come across like a complete cunt, so I bite my tongue and nod along with the platitudes like a silent, cynical dog.

    It's one of the things that has put me off seriously seeking elected office. I just can't be that dishonest all the time, and in my natural state I'd reinforce the baby-eating stereotype like there was no tomorrow. But, when I'm on top of a situation - setting the narrative and playing to my strengths - nobody would know any different. But in politics you have to deal with other people and other narratives.

    I suspect May and Brown might both have a bit of this in them - not that I'm accusing either of them of being anywhere near as heartless a beast as I am, obviously!
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    BromptonautBromptonaut Posts: 1,113

    UK abandons strongly-held position immediately on engagement with the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761

    The BBC said:

    The UK has agreed to sort out its EU "divorce bill" and citizens' residence rights before starting Brexit trade talks, EU sources have told the BBC.

    So... no Brexit talks for some weeks / months yet? Thank heavens we are using the world's greatest negotiators to seal the Brexit deal before October 2018 when time runs out otherwise I would be worried.
    I decided to stop worrying a day or two after the referendum, and instead seek to maintain an attitude of detached amusement, enjoying the slow-motion car crash as best I can.

    So far I haven't been disappointed.
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    isamisam Posts: 41,096
    @Richard_Nabavi do you follow @DaveHill on twitter? His blog, about politics in London, is great. He makes the same point as you re empty homes

    https://twitter.com/davehill/status/875229758438739968
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    RochdalePioneersRochdalePioneers Posts: 27,444
    TOPPING said:



    So as he has proven himself, although not a winner, then at least a lot better than popular opinion (on PB!) had him, are you now fully behind him? What do you make of Kendall?

    I of course think he is too left wing for today's Britain but of course that's not to say Britain won't choose him.

    My view on JC is the same as myself as I come up for reelection onto my CLP Exec - the best person for the job until someone better comes along.

    Do I like some of JC's past waffle? No - but find me any politician or person who has a flawless
    past. He is authentic in how right on he is - and I'll take authentic yoghurt knitter over authentic unscrupulous liar any day.

    Kendall? A non-entity who seemed to think a return to the 'glories' of 2005 was a good idea. We need to look forwards not back - this bloody country always looks backwards, which is how we end up backwards compared to so many of our neighbours.
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    stodgestodge Posts: 12,927
    Afternoon all :)

    If anyone wondered where I was, well, you were wrong again.

    Mrs Stodge and I enjoyed a 10-day break on the beautiful island of Zakynthos in a luxury hotel by the beach. Masterly inactivity ruled the roost but we did venture into the hills and the interior. There are clear signs Greece is on the way back - yes, there are still many abandoned shops and houses but fewer and signs of building work and a return of economic strength predicated, it seems, on a surge of tourism from China and South Korea.

    When I left these shores, most of the evidence suggested the Conservatives under Theresa May (or was it the Theresa May Party including the Conservatives?) were heading for a big win but once I got some wifi on the morning of Friday June 9th, you can imagine my surprise.

    A veritable Niagara Falls worth of water has flowed under the political bridge in my absence and trying to take it all in let alone make sense of it has been difficult.

    I'll keep it local for now - my MP, Stephen Timms, was returned with an increased majority moving to 39,883. I had thought suppressed Labour turnout would take his majority down to 30,000 but I was wrong. Timms even picked up as 2.5% swing from the Conservatives as his vote share rose to 83%.

    The Conservative candidate who effectively did nothing in the seat, saw her share rose to 13% while the others fought for the scraps. UKIP finished third despite not even sending an election address and the LD candidate lost a third of the miniscule 2015 vote share winning just 1.2% but it's fair to say what effort the local LDs could put in went to West Ham.

    I see nothing to stop Labour sweeping all 60 seats in Newham next year and it now seems Ilford North is secure so Redbridge will probably stay in Labour hands. London's local contests next year will be of significance and it may well be the 2022 contests will take place on General Election day.

    I'll talk about the LDs and Tim Farron's resignation in my next outpouring.
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    nunuonenunuone Posts: 1,138
    JackW said:

    How the f*ck did this happen, though?

    It started so well. The decisive clear-out. The determined speech on the gates of Downing Street. The first PMQs with the Thatcheresque slapdown of Corbyn, "REMIND him of anybody?", the bitch-slap of Robertson and the work over the Summer on the Brexit position for Conference, the Speech to Congress..

    And then.. the honeymoon continued... and continued... and continued.. no-one was sure why. She was like Boudicca.

    And then it all blew up in her face with barely 3 weeks to go till the General Election.

    Why?

    HOW?

    There were was a combination of factors, both long and short term that converged at the same time :

    1. Continuing dithering on BREXIT and hard BREXIT and failure to address REMAINERS.
    2. General Austerity overload.
    3. NHS limping from crisis to crisis.
    4. Real term cuts to education.
    5. PM not tested before the election.
    6. Dynamic of terrorist attacks and 20,000 fewer police.
    7. Manifesto fiasco - social care mess.
    8. Failure to engage in debate.
    9. Wooden performances during campaign
    10. Limited campaign strategy overseen by favoured advisers.
    11. Little vision or hope for the future.
    12. Completely underestimated Jezza and his campaign and manifesto.
    13. Failed to engage younger voters who this time bothered to vote.
    14. Over reliance on former UKIP voters moving en-masse to Tories.
    15. Failure to engage effectively on social media.
    16. The Sun "wot won it" strategy failed. Mail and Express too.
    17. No coordinated attacks on the trio's past and painting them as security threat which should have been built months before the election.

    18. No coordinated attacks on his economic literacy which is a narrative that should have been built months before the election.

    You can't come on the middle of a campaign and hope to to paint your opponent in a negative light, it has to be cemented in the voters minds *before* the election.
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    TOPPINGTOPPING Posts: 41,548
    edited June 2017

    TOPPING said:



    So as he has proven himself, although not a winner, then at least a lot better than popular opinion (on PB!) had him, are you now fully behind him? What do you make of Kendall?

    I of course think he is too left wing for today's Britain but of course that's not to say Britain won't choose him.

    My view on JC is the same as myself as I come up for reelection onto my CLP Exec - the best person for the job until someone better comes along.

    Do I like some of JC's past waffle? No - but find me any politician or person who has a flawless
    past. He is authentic in how right on he is - and I'll take authentic yoghurt knitter over authentic unscrupulous liar any day.

    Kendall? A non-entity who seemed to think a return to the 'glories' of 2005 was a good idea. We need to look forwards not back - this bloody country always looks backwards, which is how we end up backwards compared to so many of our neighbours.
    thx

    Edit: to expand!!

    I am truly perplexed at the move so far leftwards, but then my view is also that we are still within the GFC envelope and the consequences of that have not played out. It also of course coincides with the zeitgeist of what have I got to lose.

    Fascinating times regardless; I suppose my partisan point would be that the left's experiment, if it blows up (it often does) will harm most those who can least afford it. Like Brexit, in fact.

    What's your view on Brexit?
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    isam said:

    @Richard_Nabavi do you follow @DaveHill on twitter? His blog, about politics in London, is great. He makes the same point as you re empty homes

    https://twitter.com/davehill/status/875229758438739968

    Thanks, I hadn't seen his comment, but he's referring to the same report which I mentioned.
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    MexicanpeteMexicanpete Posts: 25,481
    SeanT said:

    SeanT said:

    Patrick said:

    The Tory party and the nation are discovering that May is a bit of a dud. She's not an idiot or without good thoughts or intentions. She is just too leaden, robotic and aloof. In our touchy-feely televisual age you need to be able to hang out with normal people. She can't. She's just too other-worldly. Harsh. Unfair. But true. She's becoming the story and there's a new game in town - monstering Theresa. It won't go away. Ever.
    The Tories face a nasty choice. Show loyalty and soldier onwards and downwards. Or be ruthless and get rid at the first sensible moment. As a Tory voter I know what I want. Replace her ASAP.

    She is, as I've said for a while now, almost certainly on the autistic spectrum (at the high functioning end). Everything fits, from her obstinacy and narrow focus, to her social awkwardness and shyness, her inability to empathise, the robotic phrasing, even the facial grimaces and odd posture.

    People like this can be fabulously successful, behind the scenes - Warren Buffet, Bill Gates - they often make great writers and inventors.

    But as national leaders in a social media age they are calamitously bad.

    She does indeed have to go at some point, and I feel sorry for her. But who replaces??
    As the parent of a son on the autistic spectrum, please don't be offended but I am afraid your sweeping generalizations regarding autism are no more than prejudiced nonsense.

    Mrs May perhaps finds socialising with people she meets from a different social strata to herself with some discomfort. That may have more to do her upbringing than the likelihood of her being on the spectrum. I suspect Mrs May is reasonably comfortable with her peers in the Conservative Party. My son finds it difficult to socialise on any level, and let me tell you the condition is no joke.
    But I also have very close relatives on the spectrum - and diagnosed as such - so I know whereof I speak. It's a long spectrum, and at the high functioning end you can be "almost normal".

    Asperger's is particularly hard to spot in girls unless you know what you're looking for, because they just appear rather awkward or shy, and some "female" traits are actually reinforced - quietness, rule-following, precision.

    In males Aspies is much more obvious; outright autism even more so.
    No one calls it 'Aspies'! Are you just taking the piss? The term 'Asperger's Syndrome' is seldom used these days. Yes the 'autistic spectrum' is as wide as it is long, but labelling anyone who displays any social unease as being autistic is downright crass and certainly unhelpful.
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    logical_songlogical_song Posts: 9,739

    UK abandons strongly-held position immediately on engagement with the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761

    The BBC said:

    The UK has agreed to sort out its EU "divorce bill" and citizens' residence rights before starting Brexit trade talks, EU sources have told the BBC.

    So... no Brexit talks for some weeks / months yet? Thank heavens we are using the world's greatest negotiators to seal the Brexit deal before October 2018 when time runs out otherwise I would be worried.
    I decided to stop worrying a day or two after the referendum, and instead seek to maintain an attitude of detached amusement, enjoying the slow-motion car crash as best I can.

    So far I haven't been disappointed.
    Lord Buckethead to the rescue
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/item/35e52bfa-8165-4de8-99b2-07898bce3dd4?intc_type=singletheme&intc_location=bbcthree&intc_campaign=bbcthree&intc_linkname=article_bucketheadbrexit_contentcard50
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    isamisam Posts: 41,096
    Voice of reason Michael Portillo break the bad news to Lovely Liz

    https://twitter.com/jamin2g/status/875498901888958464
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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,336
    Amazon, the world's biggest online retailer, is buying Whole Foods in a $13.7bn (£10.7bn) deal that marks its biggest push into traditional bricks-and-mortar retailing yet.

    Wowzers....
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    dyingswandyingswan Posts: 189
    Sometime soon the media need to be confronted on their agenda of demanding empathy from politicians. They should be asked- how much emoting will suffice? Is it three filmed hugs, five minutes of weeping or should an MP signal virtue for at least an hour? Is it necessary to reach Lily Allen levels or will Gary Lineker standard do? I have had a gutsful of media hypocrisy in their coverage of each new horror. I have every sympathy for the victims of this tragedy. At the same time our elected representatives are not grief counsellors and they should not be judged on their acting abilities.
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    booksellerbookseller Posts: 423

    Here's a perspective from the high-functioning end of the spectrum. I can only speak for myself, but these traits may well apply to the PM and others:

    'Empathy', whatever that really is, feels like pretending. It generally comes across as empty platitudes that, when expressed, feel fraudulent. I know what I'm *supposed* to do to appear empathetic. I've learned the things to say and to some extent even the body language etc. to the point where some people have actually complimented me on my level of understanding. But internally, I'm playing a game to which I've studied the rules. I know to others it's a genuine thing, but it feels fake, and when I see others doing it, it looks fake. Disingenuous. Going through the motions. Makes me cynical about it, even if - to 'normals' it's entirely heartfelt.

    There are probably good evolutionary reasons for a lack of empathy - being able to respond quickly in a crisis without emotions clouding the judgement in extreme survival situations, something our predecessors would have been more used to dealing with than us.

    But equally, empathy binds us together more generally - so on balance having a bigger ratio of empathic people to non-empathics was the Darwinian outcome for social groupings.

    But of course all that genetic stuff has a big switch - the environment. Genes can be switched on or off by it, so in our current environment where we are bombarded by a ton of information which triggers an emotional response, to me it seems that non-empathic people (AS, or whichever 'syndrome' you want to dub them with) might be able to function and prosper better (are 'fitter') in society in general.

    That still doesn't let TM off the hook, most people would look at her actions and see them through the lens of someone with empathy. Maybe if Nick and Fiona had been around they'd have advised her differently. Ah well...
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    tim80tim80 Posts: 99

    UK abandons strongly-held position immediately on engagement with the EU.

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-40303761

    The BBC said:

    The UK has agreed to sort out its EU "divorce bill" and citizens' residence rights before starting Brexit trade talks, EU sources have told the BBC.

    So... no Brexit talks for some weeks / months yet? Thank heavens we are using the world's greatest negotiators to seal the Brexit deal before October 2018 when time runs out otherwise I would be worried.
    An EU source? They'll be spinning. A UK source would be spinning. Critical faculties should be applied when taking on these comments.
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    Richard_NabaviRichard_Nabavi Posts: 30,820
    Yes. We'll have to wait and see what the public inquiry and the technical reports say, but we should remember that it is perfectly possible that everyone concerned with the refurbishment - the council, the management company, the architects, the contractors, the sub-contractors, the suppliers and the building inspectors who signed it all off - did everything absolutely correctly and diligently ensured that the regulations and 'best practice' were followed. The problem might simply be that the regulations and 'best practice' are wrong, but if so it's not the fault of those working on this particular project. Of course, it's also possible that corners were cut; the cladding might not have been installed correctly, for example, or the fire-barriers not properly resealed between floors. We'll just have to wait for the answers.
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    GIN1138GIN1138 Posts: 20,950
    dyingswan said:

    Sometime soon the media need to be confronted on their agenda of demanding empathy from politicians. They should be asked- how much emoting will suffice? Is it three filmed hugs, five minutes of weeping or should an MP signal virtue for at least an hour? Is it necessary to reach Lily Allen levels or will Gary Lineker standard do? I have had a gutsful of media hypocrisy in their coverage of each new horror. I have every sympathy for the victims of this tragedy. At the same time our elected representatives are not grief counsellors and they should not be judged on their acting abilities.

    A politician doesn't need to turn up at a tragedy and have a full on emotional breakdown with the victims... But they do need to turn up, show respect, show sympathy, give the victims some of their time, depending on the circumstances let the victims vent their anger a bit and basically take an interest.

    All of which Theresa May notably failed to do.
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    Off topic.
    I've just been YouGov'd on how I would have voted last week under different voting systems.
    AV & SV were the two proffered alternatives.
    Is @TSE on the board of YouGov now?
    We should be told.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.

    Davis thought we could do a trade deal with Germany after Brexit. His competence and knowledge of detail are far from proved. As for gravitas, it is in the eye of the beholder!

    If you think we can't do a trade deal with Germany - and the rest of the EU - then frankly you are deluded. It may not be straight forward but both sides will do a deal eventually.

    We can do a trade deal with the EU, not Germany. Davis did not know this.

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    FrancisUrquhartFrancisUrquhart Posts: 76,336
    edited June 2017

    Yes. We'll have to wait and see what the public inquiry and the technical reports say, but we should remember that it is perfectly possible that everyone concerned with the refurbishment - the council, the management company, the architects, the contractors, the sub-contractors, the suppliers and the building inspectors who signed it all off - did everything absolutely correctly and diligently ensured that the regulations and 'best practice' were followed. The problem might simply be that the regulations and 'best practice' are wrong, but if so it's not the fault of those working on this particular project. Of course, it's also possible that corners were cut; the cladding might not have been installed correctly, for example, or the fire-barriers not properly resealed between floors. We'll just have to wait for the answers.
    Sky had a guardian journo on yesterday comparing this to a possible Hillsborough, where the authorities are up to no good. I found this very concerning to making such claims without any evidence, which some might say how the media incorrectly reported Hillsborough in the first place.

    The media stoking up that somebody must have been doing something dodgy is very worrying and leads to rent a mobs.
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    engineerengineer Posts: 9

    The more I read about it, the more information that comes out, the more I think the Grenfell Tower disaster will be a pivotal force for change:

    1. A building seemingly with no functioning alarm system, or sprinkler, or fire protection, with dodgy electrics, with cladding that flashes into flame added at lowest possible cost
    2. Building managed for profit by a company seemingly more interested in threatening legal action against worried residents than listening to their valid concerns
    3. Assurances that the building code was followed - which raises questions about the validity of the code and the thousands of other high rise blocks housing similar low income communities
    4. Recommendations dodged by the Tories in the last parliament after the Camberwell fire, the vote against ensuring housing is fit for habitation, the warnings that cuts to fire cover would be dangerous, and now May/Barwell etc running for cover

    It stinks of an establishment sweeping the poor and dispossessed out of the way, making their unsafe block look pretty, then spending the least possible on it. And we've been here before in the 60s, with unsafe and disfunctional social housing built to become unlivable or dangerous very quickly.

    I can't see how this doesn't further accelerate the growing mood of "enough is enough" amongst large numbers of people when it comes to cuts and the abusive attitude to the poor/sick/foreign so beloved by Dacre and many Tories. And yes, I am politicising something that is by definition political. This is the end result when saving money is the priority over safety.

    Technically they spent far too much on this block. £120k per flat. They then tried to faff around saving £15 or so per flat with fatal consequences - though I think the lack of compartments may prove to be a key factor which first allowed the fire to spread.

    You can build very good medium-rise, i.e. ~4-storey terraced housing for less than that cost per dwelling. It can be absolutely delightful; look how well the central London squares have aged. You don't need sprinklers either.
    I think that the report will find that the plastic window frames melted with the external fire which allowed the flames to access the individual flats.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,987

    Pulpstar said:

    Dodds and Foster will have an understanding that May will go shortly I think. On that basis they will vote through the Queens Speech.
    I doubt it will be Davis as he'll be the continuity with the Brexit talks, indeed the fact those are now off indicates to my mind that the new putative leaders won't rock that boat too much. Boris and Hammond I think might well be the final two, with Davis taking a senior role to either.

    Of course that all might be completely wrong.

    I think it'd be Davis as PM, the gravitas, competence and knowledge of the detail to be able to deal with the European Council. Davis actually was at Tate & Lyle for 15 years as a senior executive, so does actually know something about running complex organisations and business. And he's tough enough: territorial SAS. And he answers questions too.

    At DexEU, I think someone like Gove, Hammond or Rudd who can master detail and brief, quickly. The junior ministers in DexEU would be whoever is required to balance up perceptions of the Secretary of State.

    There's an argument for a good cop/bad cop approach to the EU negotiations from the UK point of view.

    On the basis of the above, I'm backing Davis at the moment at 5/1 on Betfair, and not Boris, who I think is too short.

    Again.

    Davis thought we could do a trade deal with Germany after Brexit. His competence and knowledge of detail are far from proved. As for gravitas, it is in the eye of the beholder!

    Citation?
    “Post Brexit a UK-German deal would include free access for their cars and industrial goods, in exchange for a deal on everything else,” he said on 26 May this year.

    “Similar deals would be reached with other key EU nations. France would want to protect £3 billion of food and wine exports. Italy, its £1 billion fashion exports. Poland its £3 billion manufacturing exports.”


    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/minister-for-brexit-davis-davis-eu-european-union-germany-single-market-trade-deals-unaware-mistake-a7136121.html
    Obviously it will be through the auspices of the EU but effectively no matter what they might think it will not be the EU we are looking to secure deals with but Germany and France etc. They are the power houses that we need to get agreement from.

    Not obvious to Mr Davis.

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    nunununu Posts: 6,024
    edited June 2017

    Here's a perspective from the high-functioning end of the spectrum. I can only speak for myself, but these traits may well apply to the PM and others:

    'Empathy', whatever that really is, feels like pretending. It generally comes across as empty platitudes that, when expressed, feel fraudulent. I know what I'm *supposed* to do to appear empathetic. I've learned the things to say and to some extent even the body language etc. to the point where some people have actually complimented me on my level of understanding. But internally, I'm playing a game to which I've studied the rules. I know to others it's a genuine thing, but it feels fake, and when I see others doing it, it looks fake. Disingenuous. Going through the motions. Makes me cynical about it, even if - to 'normals' it's entirely heartfelt.

    Those of us with a self-awareness of our AS tendencies can learn to conceal and work around them, but it's a big step outside of our comfort zone and hard to maintain 24/7. We learn to keep our mouths shut rather than open them and risk making things worse.

    For example, when I heard about the Tower fire, most people - unless they're all playing a game too - would've been filled with sadness, compassion, shock. The human reactions we're all supposed and expected to have.

    I knew I had to keep sthtum because I was instinctively thinking things like 'Maybe there's a God and he's punishing Kensington for electing a Labour MP' and 'Ooh, if 20 people die that'll probably wipe out the slim Labour majority'. 'Hundreds of thousands of people die every day across the word, why single out these ones for attention?'... Yep, I know. Totally inappropriate and makes me come across like a complete cunt, so I bite my tongue and nod along with the platitudes like a silent, cynical dog.

    It's one of the things that has put me off seriously seeking elected office. I just can't be that dishonest all the time, and in my natural state I'd reinforce the baby-eating stereotype like there was no tomorrow. But, when I'm on top of a situation - setting the narrative and playing to my strengths - nobody would know any different. But in politics you have to deal with other people and other narratives.

    I suspect May and Brown might both have a bit of this in them - not that I'm accusing either of them of being anywhere near as heartless a beast as I am, obviously!

    Thanks for sharing this. Although I am a "normie" many times I have seen outpourings of empathy and thought "well they are simply doing what is expected of them, it's just a bit fake". I think it's because I normally don't show that much emotion when it comes to tragic events so I am projecting on to others which I shouldn't do.
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