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politicalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May was right, this election should be about Brexit

SystemSystem Posts: 11,687
edited May 2017 in General

imagepoliticalbetting.com » Blog Archive » Theresa May was right, this election should be about Brexit

The appalling events of Monday evening are dominating the election campaign. Young children and teenagers should be able to attend a pop concert without fear of being killed.  I struggle to understand the mind of a man that can choose to inflict so much pain and suffering on so many young people and their families.  Feelings are understandably running high: grief, anger, outrage and despair are mingled.

Read the full story here


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Comments

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Thanks Mr Meeks!
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    Second
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    YellowSubmarineYellowSubmarine Posts: 2,740
    An excellent analysis from Alistair. However the electorate is ultimately in charge. May can only get away with a blank cheque election because opinion hasn't shifted amongst Leave voters. We aren't discussing the hard trade offs because these voters don't think any exist. With half of Remain voters pragmatically going along with it May is being offered a blank cheque by the electorate. Can I in all honesty blame her for taking it ? Equally the electorate will drive the rest of the campaign being about the Security State and a tedious and theologically illiterate fauxtrage about British Muslims. The media only serves up Disaster P*rn because it knows folk like it.

    It's no surprise folk like me think Brexit is going to be a disaster. Though with 11 months hard evidence rather than opinion I feel that more strongly than I did on June 23rd last year. The issue is we're a democracy and most folk don't agree with me. May is not being dishonest or conning anyone. The Conservative manifesto contains some startling and disturbing clarity on how hard Brexit will be, the scale of the tax rises and benefit cuts to come. The evidence is the electorate is not currently bothered. So who can really blame her for taking the offered landslide while it's there before the **** hits the fan ?

    I could argue she should be more Stateswoman like but look where that got all her predecessors. And at least ( all be it with a lousy policy ) she's attempted to use some of this political capital on a big thanks big like social care.

    It's telling in the light of Alistair's drift that May's only turbulence of the campaign came when she told a ' Truth ' to the electorate on social care. The electorate isn't in the mood for it.
  • Options
    viewcodeviewcode Posts: 18,823
    edited May 2017
    On a tangential point, I've just realised I am in That London on Friday and may be able to come to the meetup.

    I'm not sure I'll enjoy it as I imagine you all as a bunch of rabid alt-Right Milo-fondlers who bang on about Brexit continuously sitting in tin baths ladling sour milk over your distended bodies whilst exchanging fluids and doing the shunt between those ahem, special sessions with the cheesegrater.

    But that might just be my imagination.

    I do need to ask one thing tho: will there be any photography there? I like my anonymity and don't want my face online.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    @YellowSubmarine - on your last point.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the big change of the policy was the inclusion of the home in working out how much you would pay for social care. That hasn't changed with the U-turn, and May may have got away without actually spelling out what the cap is, giving her significant flexibility (although the issue could be back in the headlines within days!)
  • Options
    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    edited May 2017
    RobD said:

    @YellowSubmarine - on your last point.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the big change of the policy was the inclusion of the home in working out how much you would pay for social care. That hasn't changed with the U-turn, and May may have got away without actually spelling out what the cap is, giving her significant flexibility (although the issue could be back in the headlines within days!)

    The bigger picture worry is that, as YS spells out very clearly, we are in for a tough time and the government is going to have to make some very hard decisions if the country is ever to balance its books yet deliver any of its promises to the JAMS. Decisions the Tory party itself won't like, let alone the rest of us. This would all be true without Brexit, which simply magnifies the challenges and the potential threats we face. Yet all the signs from May is that whenever her government runs into the slightest difficulty she is immediately weak and wobbly.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    @YellowSubmarine - on your last point.

    Correct me if I am wrong, but the big change of the policy was the inclusion of the home in working out how much you would pay for social care. That hasn't changed with the U-turn, and May may have got away without actually spelling out what the cap is, giving her significant flexibility (although the issue could be back in the headlines within days!)

    The bigger picture worry is that, as YS spells out very clearly, we are in for a tough time and the government is going to have to make some very hard decisions if the country is ever to balance its books yet deliver any of its promises to the JAMS. Decisions the Tory party itself won't like, let alone the rest of us. This would all be true without Brexit, which simply magnifies the challenges and the potential threats we face. Yet all the signs from May is that whenever her government runs into the slightest difficulty she is immediately weak and wobbly.
    Agreed, it isn't a good look. Hopefully lessons will be learnt given this is the second time (although not holding my breath).
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Am I going mad or did the header picture change?
  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    RobD said:

    Am I going mad or did the header picture change?

    Not mutually exclusive.....;-)

  • Options
    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    edited May 2017
    if Brexit does turn out as badly as many of the signs are suggesting,

    Citation required
  • Options
    MikeSmithsonMikeSmithson Posts: 7,382
    edited May 2017

    RobD said:

    Am I going mad or did the header picture change?

    Not mutually exclusive.....;-)

    Yes. It changed because the Getty images embedded pic is now adding ads when you view the site on a phone so I replaced it.
  • Options
    SimonStClareSimonStClare Posts: 7,976
    Morning all.

    A very good article Mr Meeks, where do you find the time?
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    RobD said:

    Am I going mad or did the header picture change?

    Speaking of pictures after seeing your Manchester video toward the end of the last thread, shouldn't your avatar now show your white spectacles ?

    Just asking for a friend .... in MI5
  • Options
    JackWJackW Posts: 14,787
    viewcode said:

    On a tangential point, I've just realised I am in That London on Friday and may be able to come to the meetup.

    I'm not sure I'll enjoy it as I imagine you all as a bunch of rabid alt-Right Milo-fondlers who bang on about Brexit continuously sitting in tin baths ladling sour milk over your distended bodies whilst exchanging fluids and doing the shunt between those ahem, special sessions with the cheesegrater.

    But that might just be my imagination.

    I do need to ask one thing tho: will there be any photography there? I like my anonymity and don't want my face online.

    Wear a veil ?!?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    JackW said:

    RobD said:

    Am I going mad or did the header picture change?

    Speaking of pictures after seeing your Manchester video toward the end of the last thread, shouldn't your avatar now show your white spectacles ?

    Just asking for a friend .... in MI5
    :D
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    edited May 2017
    May was always going to get a huge majority. It's not as if voters ever saw Corbyn as credible.

    Hopefully, though, we will get less bellicose language about our European friends from here on in. For friends they surely are. Our enemies do not sit in the Commission or in government offices in capital cities from Helsinki through Paris and Berlin to Athens. And as Alastair says in his very fine piece, security is not going to be a Brexit bargaining chip. Not least because we now know the Americans are less trustworthy than anyone. The Atlanticist fantasies of some of the more swivel-eyed right wing Brexiteers are dissolving into dust.
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    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    It is doubtful, for example, whether she can continue to argue that sharing security information is a bargaining chip that Britain can play, now that the public have had a reminder of the potential consequences of doing so.

    Has that actually been suggested? Surely it's more a question of resources and I'd suggest that this attack brings this issue in to sharp focus. Why the f*** should we pick up the tab for monitoring what's going on in Europe when we have scumbags flying to Lybia and back from this country?
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    tlg86 said:

    It is doubtful, for example, whether she can continue to argue that sharing security information is a bargaining chip that Britain can play, now that the public have had a reminder of the potential consequences of doing so.

    Has that actually been suggested? Surely it's more a question of resources and I'd suggest that this attack brings this issue in to sharp focus. Why the f*** should we pick up the tab for monitoring what's going on in Europe when we have scumbags flying to Lybia and back from this country?

    They may not only fly to and from Libya. We don't know how big the network is, how it is organised, where its operatives are all based.

  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    FPT

    I'm very concerned about the sort of country we're becoming if people are worried that shopkeepers are growing beards, that sounds flippant but its a serious point. I said on here yesterday that reprisals are inevitable, I might be wrong but its unlikely that Sean T will take direct action, in 1 or 2 places I wouldn't be so sure.

    We are in troubled times and there will be people who say Brexit is the catalyst to violence against foreigners when it is not connected in any way. There will be dozens of reports of "racist" attacks which I find abhorrent, but if Islamists choose to murder children and nothing is "seen" to be done, there will be problems.

    BNP, Britain First etc will be whipping people up into a frenzy, it is unconnected to Brexit in every way.
  • Options
    Scott_PScott_P Posts: 51,453
    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn
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    GallowgateGallowgate Posts: 19,081
    edited May 2017
    Morning all. Boiling hot in Newcastle upon Tyne this morning.

    Any word on when the next batch of opinion polls are likely to come out?
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    @Scott_P - just a flesh wound :smiley:
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    Morning all. Boiling hot in Newcastle upon Tyne this morning.

    Any word on when the next batch of opinion polls are likely to come out?

    TSE was suggesting some today/tomorrow with fieldwork before the attack, and then some for the Sunday newspapers.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited May 2017
    RobD said:

    @Scott_P - just a flesh wound :smiley:

    Also, why am I able to view Times articles? Have they lifted the paywall?

    Edit: no, apparently I was only allowed to read that one article :p
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    Remember, VW will have killed more people this year than ISIS.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited May 2017
    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    That wording seems weirdly familiar. This huge deficiency in the twice elected leader of the Labour Party will now move centre stage. But I don't share Alastair's frustration about Brexit not being discussed. The key for Brexit is who do we trust to negotiate the best possible deal on our behalf? Since the idea of trusting Corbyn about anything is pretty risible there is only one answer to that.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    It looks like May is a lucky politician: lucky that Cameron unexpectedly stood down, lucky to find herself up against Corbyn and lucky (inappropriate word) that Manchester has exposed Corbyn even more.

    This time last year who could possibly have predicted an enormous tory majority with May in charge?

    Events dear boy.....
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

    Although I agree with you it must be remembered that Palmer and others actually support Corbyn and his policies. Asking people to discard their principles in order to get elected doesn't work.
  • Options
    PongPong Posts: 4,693
    edited May 2017
    The intelligence leaks are shocking.

    If we're instantly uploading all our intel to the NSA icloud, it has to be secure.

    They're being the opposite of helpful.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    I thought there was nothing to be discussed.

    It is just a matter of us being informed by the EU what the conditions are for us to exit. And if they box our ears as we leave, then we must thank them as we go.

    There is no point in a serf discussing with his master the terms for manumission.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    the left have no answer, they still believe there is a magic money tree. Things have to be paid for. Its all very will to offer the unaffordable, but who is going to pay for it.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287

    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

    Although I agree with you it must be remembered that Palmer and others actually support Corbyn and his policies. Asking people to discard their principles in order to get elected doesn't work.
    He also supported the Iraq war and Trident renewal. I'm struggling to reconcile that with the idea that his support of the chairman of 'Stop the War' and a leading figure in CND is 'principled'.

    He himself said it was to stop the Greens outflanking Labour to the left, which sounds entirely political as well as absolutely insane.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308

    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

    Although I agree with you it must be remembered that Palmer and others actually support Corbyn and his policies. Asking people to discard their principles in order to get elected doesn't work.
    This comes back to Alastair's central theme. For the 99% of the population who are not political anoraks the central judgement is about leadership and whom you trust to do their best. Even if you thought that Corbyn's ideas were credible or a viable way forward would you trust him, Abbott and McDonnell to deliver them?

    Before Manchester the ineptitude with which the Social Care policy and the lack of clarity on important changes proposed in the Tory Manifesto were eroding that trust in May and making the choice look less stark. I think this will now reset and would not be surprised to see polling somewhat similar to the start of the campaign.
  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    RobD said:

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.

    Crimes will always be committed. Reducing the numbers of those tasked with preventing and solving them may not be the best move. We need the debate. But with no opposition we won't get it. No-one serious believes Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn have anything sensible to say about security.

  • Options
    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

    Although I agree with you it must be remembered that Palmer and others actually support Corbyn and his policies. Asking people to discard their principles in order to get elected doesn't work.
    He also supported the Iraq war and Trident renewal. I'm struggling to reconcile that with the idea that his support of the chairman of 'Stop the War' and a leading figure in CND is 'principled'.

    He himself said it was to stop the Greens outflanking Labour to the left, which sounds entirely political as well as absolutely insane.
    If there had been no Iraq War, there would be no Jeremy.

    Labour have donned sack-cloth & are walking barefoot through the streets of Canterbury while eighty monks flog them with branches.
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107
    DavidL said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

    Although I agree with you it must be remembered that Palmer and others actually support Corbyn and his policies. Asking people to discard their principles in order to get elected doesn't work.
    This comes back to Alastair's central theme. For the 99% of the population who are not political anoraks the central judgement is about leadership and whom you trust to do their best. Even if you thought that Corbyn's ideas were credible or a viable way forward would you trust him, Abbott and McDonnell to deliver them?

    Before Manchester the ineptitude with which the Social Care policy and the lack of clarity on important changes proposed in the Tory Manifesto were eroding that trust in May and making the choice look less stark. I think this will now reset and would not be surprised to see polling somewhat similar to the start of the campaign.
    I agree entirely, my point is that SO has continually stated, with good reason, that Corbyn is unelectable, but the Labour Party members voted for him to lead them. SO needs to find a new party rather than Labour a new leader. If they get Starmer or whoever the Corbyn/Momentum people will still be there.

    The Labour Party needs to grow some balls and split into two or face decades in (weak) opposition.
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    GeoffMGeoffM Posts: 6,071
    rcs1000 said:

    Remember, VW will have killed more people this year than ISIS.

    Worldwide?
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    viewcode said:

    On a tangential point, I've just realised I am in That London on Friday and may be able to come to the meetup.

    I'm not sure I'll enjoy it as I imagine you all as a bunch of rabid alt-Right Milo-fondlers who bang on about Brexit continuously sitting in tin baths ladling sour milk over your distended bodies whilst exchanging fluids and doing the shunt between those ahem, special sessions with the cheesegrater.

    But that might just be my imagination.

    I do need to ask one thing tho: will there be any photography there? I like my anonymity and don't want my face online.

    That sounds a fairly average PB drinks do to be fair.
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    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937
    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

    Although I agree with you it must be remembered that Palmer and others actually support Corbyn and his policies. Asking people to discard their principles in order to get elected doesn't work.
    He also supported the Iraq war and Trident renewal. I'm struggling to reconcile that with the idea that his support of the chairman of 'Stop the War' and a leading figure in CND is 'principled'.

    He himself said it was to stop the Greens outflanking Labour to the left, which sounds entirely political as well as absolutely insane.

    There is nothing principled in gifting the Tories a landslide and denying the country an opposition capable of holding the government to account. The self-indulgence of Labour members post-2015 is unforgiveable.

  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.

    Crimes will always be committed. Reducing the numbers of those tasked with preventing and solving them may not be the best move. We need the debate. But with no opposition we won't get it. No-one serious believes Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn have anything sensible to say about security.

    Hasn't crime been on a downward trend though?
  • Options
    MarqueeMarkMarqueeMark Posts: 50,125

    RobD said:

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.

    Crimes will always be committed. Reducing the numbers of those tasked with preventing and solving them may not be the best move. We need the debate. But with no opposition we won't get it. No-one serious believes Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn have anything sensible to say about security.

    It's not just that they don't have anything sensible to say. What they had said is bat-shit crazy. And that from our putative Chancellor and Home Secretary.

    Yes, Labour has been incredibly self-indulgent in putting these people at the top of their party. They need to be politically eviscerated for that. Parliamentary democracy requires the checks and balances of an Opposition crawling all over them. That Theresa May does not is hardly the fault of Theresa May.

    Labour needs a bare-metal rebuild. If the Party can't do that itself - and the signs are not good - then we will have to subcontract the voters in to do it.
  • Options
    tlg86tlg86 Posts: 25,190
    rcs1000 said:

    Remember, VW will have killed more people this year than ISIS.

    Encouraged by governments too.
  • Options
    DavidLDavidL Posts: 51,308
    Scott_P said:
    I don't believe hell exists but certain people, most recently Ian Brady and Salman Abedi, lead one to regret that conclusion.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

    Although I agree with you it must be remembered that Palmer and others actually support Corbyn and his policies. Asking people to discard their principles in order to get elected doesn't work.
    He also supported the Iraq war and Trident renewal. I'm struggling to reconcile that with the idea that his support of the chairman of 'Stop the War' and a leading figure in CND is 'principled'.

    He himself said it was to stop the Greens outflanking Labour to the left, which sounds entirely political as well as absolutely insane.
    If there had been no Iraq War, there would be no Jeremy.

    Labour have donned sack-cloth & are walking barefoot through the streets of Canterbury while eighty monks flog them with branches.
    Yes, While there were other issues (such as NHS privatisation) that led me to leave New Labour, the mendacity over the Iraq war was the main reason.

    It was that unnecessary war that destroyed the credibility of the old front bench.
  • Options
    foxinsoxukfoxinsoxuk Posts: 23,548
    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.

    Crimes will always be committed. Reducing the numbers of those tasked with preventing and solving them may not be the best move. We need the debate. But with no opposition we won't get it. No-one serious believes Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn have anything sensible to say about security.

    Hasn't crime been on a downward trend though?
    Not all crimes:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39215668
  • Options
    rcs1000rcs1000 Posts: 54,003
    GeoffM said:

    rcs1000 said:

    Remember, VW will have killed more people this year than ISIS.

    Worldwide?
    Yes.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.

    Crimes will always be committed. Reducing the numbers of those tasked with preventing and solving them may not be the best move. We need the debate. But with no opposition we won't get it. No-one serious believes Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn have anything sensible to say about security.

    Hasn't crime been on a downward trend though?
    Not all crimes:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39215668
    I'm not sure that shows there is a problem. For a crime such as murder, an increase would indicate a failing, but this is less clear. It could simply be that more kids/teens are being stopped and searched?
  • Options
    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Good morning, everyone.

    Security is about more than intelligence of imminent threats (which must always be shared, of course). We've stopped telling the Germans as much because their intelligence service resembled a colander and the information kept ending up in nefarious hands.

    On a lighter note, because of Ascension Day the first practice day in Monaco is today, with Friday being empty (on a sporting level) and normal service resumed on Saturday and Sunday.

    On an even lighter note, the second episode in Wandering Phoenix and Roaming Tiger has come out. It's really rather good, do give it a look:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B072335K32/
  • Options
    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095
    edited May 2017

    Good morning, everyone.

    Security is about more than intelligence of imminent threats (which must always be shared, of course). We've stopped telling the Germans as much because their intelligence service resembled a colander and the information kept ending up in nefarious hands.

    On a lighter note, because of Ascension Day the first practice day in Monaco is today, with Friday being empty (on a sporting level) and normal service resumed on Saturday and Sunday.

    On an even lighter note, the second episode in Wandering Phoenix and Roaming Tiger has come out. It's really rather good, do give it a look:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B072335K32/

    Indeed it is Ascension Day
    Acts 1 vv 6-14
  • Options
    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,343
    edited May 2017
    Slightly bemused to wake up and find a series of posts debating my views, as though they mattered now. But for those who give a toss:

    Freetochoose is right that I support Corbyn's policies. I also like him and his political style very much, something I wouldn't say of everyone on the left.

    Ydoethur is wrong to suggest that I was making some tactical manoeuvre to get Green votes. I voted for Iraq, and camre to feel it was a very serious mistake and Corbyn and others had been right to oppose it - the West was attempting to impose a solution on a country that we didn't understand or even bother to try to understand. I've consistently opposed interventions since, notably in Libya (where it seems to me obvious in view of the chaos there that I was right) and Syria. I think a successful rival party on the left would be an existential threat to Labour (cf. France!), but that was just a factual point, not the main reason to change my own views.

    Southam feels that the priority should be to have a leader who takes us to success. Success for me is having government with worthwhile policies. I think that 2015-style campaigning (vote for us 'cos we're not the Tories and we'll give you some marginal benefits) is sterile and ultimately self-defeating. I'd consider voting for a centrist with a programme that seemed worthwhile. None of Corbyn's challengers IMO offered one.

    I agree that the focus on security in view of public doubts about Corbyn is going to make the rest of the campaign difficult. I think we would be safer with Corbyn than May in Number 10 for the reasons set out here

    http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/a-safe-foreign-policy-outsourcing-war-decisions-to-donald-trump/

    but I appreciate that it may be hard to persuade most voters of that. We can only do our best.

    But ultimately, as freetochoose says, I think one has to decide who and what one supports and then try to get a majority of seats for it. Not the other way round.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Good luck with the book Mr. D.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287

    ydoethur said:

    Scott_P said:

    This is what it is to live in a democracy under attack. We disagree on the extent of the danger and what should be done, but we are all on the same side.

    Or are we? This brings us to the rank unsuitability of Jeremy Corbyn to be prime minister and the fact that a once great party like Labour can seriously propose him as the person who could, in a matter of weeks, be chairing meetings of the government’s Cobra emergency committee.

    Almost without fail, Corbyn has expressed support for this country’s enemies, opposed British military deployments overseas, or sided with assorted fringe elements who say we deserve what we get. The man is by no reasonable definition a patriot. He is quite simply unfit to hold office.


    https://www.thetimes.co.uk/edition/comment/it-s-time-we-talked-about-corbyn-s-patriotism-2f2xwzcnn

    This is not new. It's why the Tories were always going to win big. Labour members were warned time and again. On here, I had rows with Nick Palmer and others about it. Not only has their self-indulgence gifted the Tories a landslide, it has denied the country an opposition at a time when one has never been more needed. The next sane Labour leader - if there ever is another one - should make his/her first act a fulsome apology for the party's abdication from responsibility since 2015.

    Although I agree with you it must be remembered that Palmer and others actually support Corbyn and his policies. Asking people to discard their principles in order to get elected doesn't work.
    He also supported the Iraq war and Trident renewal. I'm struggling to reconcile that with the idea that his support of the chairman of 'Stop the War' and a leading figure in CND is 'principled'.

    He himself said it was to stop the Greens outflanking Labour to the left, which sounds entirely political as well as absolutely insane.
    If there had been no Iraq War, there would be no Jeremy.

    Labour have donned sack-cloth & are walking barefoot through the streets of Canterbury while eighty monks flog them with branches.
    It was an error. A stupid and avoidable error that around half the population were opposed to. An error that could and should have been foreseen. An error that has had terrible consequences.

    But to try and atone for it by electing Corbyn as leader is the equivalent of Stalin making amends for the Ukrainian famine of 1931 by shooting all the coal miners in the Donbass, blowing up every steel factory with the workers inside and ordering Moscow burned to the ground.

    There is failure - and there is compounding the failure.
  • Options
    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908



    If there had been no Iraq War, there would be no Jeremy.

    Not so sure about that. I think it's more the financial crisis than Iraq.

    Globally many centre left parties have collapsed and in many cases been supplanted by more left wing alternatives. In the UK because of our system that battle has taken place within the Labour party rather than seen the Labour party replaced.
  • Options
    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    Slightly bemused to wake up and find a series of posts debating my views, as though they mattered now. But for those who give a toss:

    Freetochoose is right that I support Corbyn's policies. I also like him and his political style very much, something I wouldn't say of everyone on the left.

    Ydoethur is wrong to suggest that I was making some tactical manoeuvre to get Green votes. I voted for Iraq, and camre to feel it was a very serious mistake and Corbyn and others had been right to oppose it - the West was attempting to impose a solution on a country that we didn't understand or even bother to try to understand. I've consistently opposed interventions since, notably in Libya (where it seems to me obvious in view of the chaos there that I was right) and Syria. I think a successful rival party on the left would be an existential threat to Labour (cf. France!), but that was just a factual point, not the main reason to change my own views.

    Southam feels that the priority should be to have a leader who takes us to success. Success for me is having government with worthwhile policies. I think that 2015-style campaigning (vote for us 'cos we're not the Tories and we'll give you some marginal benefits) is sterile and ultimately self-defeating. I'd consider voting for a centrist with a programme that seemed worthwhile. None of Corbyn's challengers IMO offered one.

    I agree that the focus on security in view of public doubts about Corbyn is going to make the rest of the campaign difficult. I think we would be safer with Corbyn than May in Number 10 for the reasons set out here

    http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/a-safe-foreign-policy-outsourcing-war-decisions-to-donald-trump/

    but I appreciate that it may be hard to persuade most voters of that. We can only do our best.

    But ultimately, as freetochoose says, I think one has to decide who and what one supports and then try to get a majority of seats for it. Not the other way round.

    Well said Nick.

    I joined, campaigned and stood for UKIP, receiving all sorts of abuse along the way but I believed in what UKIP stood for and we achieved our aim.

    It seems these "centrists" - what a bland, nondescript word that is - believe in nothing but power. Good for you, but please don't sneer at people who can't be bought and sold.
  • Options
    ydoethurydoethur Posts: 67,287


    Ydoethur is wrong to suggest that I was making some tactical manoeuvre to get Green votes.

    I'm not the one who said it. You said several times in 2015 that you were concerned at the seepage of votes to the Greens which you felt had cost you Broxtowe (which incidentally was wrong anyway and appeared to be borne of the shock of losing a seat you clearly expected to regain - not that you were alone in that, I expected you to do so as well and I was just as wrong) and you were voting Corbyn to correct that. You were warned at the time that this was a stupid idea, by SO, by me, by Alistair, but you ignored us. You are now reaping the disaster.

    If you wish to rewrite history a la Tony Blair to try and shut me up about you or Corbyn whom you so foolishly voted for, go ahead. It won't work, but that's your problem. It might demonstrate to other posters why I will not be voting Labour this time, having voted for them in 2015.

    As I have to get to work I cannot discuss this with you further now. I hope you have a productive and enjoyable morning.
  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,436

    Good morning, everyone.

    Security is about more than intelligence of imminent threats (which must always be shared, of course). We've stopped telling the Germans as much because their intelligence service resembled a colander and the information kept ending up in nefarious hands.

    This - a surprising number of people seem to believe that "intelligence" is just the names of the next fuckwit(s) with a lorry/AK/bag-of-crap.
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Good morning, everyone.

    Security is about more than intelligence of imminent threats (which must always be shared, of course). We've stopped telling the Germans as much because their intelligence service resembled a colander and the information kept ending up in nefarious hands.

    On a lighter note, because of Ascension Day the first practice day in Monaco is today, with Friday being empty (on a sporting level) and normal service resumed on Saturday and Sunday.

    On an even lighter note, the second episode in Wandering Phoenix and Roaming Tiger has come out. It's really rather good, do give it a look:
    https://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B072335K32/

    Morning,

    Yes, dunno what the Septics are up to but it's not a good look to see your intelligence appear in the newspapers within hours.

    Monaco: As you say, the holiday leads to the only Thursday in the F1 calendar, although nowadays they do run the support race cars on Friday morning. P1 starts in just under two hours' time at 11am local.
  • Options
    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    I don't think there is any chance now that the PM can pull this back to brexit, there isn't time and the mood has changed.

    It is clear that Labour are now itching to turn this around to "police cuts" and the PM's record as Home Secretary. Hence, the pinzer movement being orchestrated by Ms Balls-Cooper and Andy (walk on water) Burnham.

    I pose the question of whether Mr Burnham is overstepping the mark, regarding his remit as Mayor!

  • Options
    SouthamObserverSouthamObserver Posts: 38,937

    Slightly bemused to wake up and find a series of posts debating my views, as though they mattered now. But for those who give a toss:

    Freetochoose is right that I support Corbyn's policies. I also like him and his political style very much, something I wouldn't say of everyone on the left.

    Ydoethur is wrong to suggest that I was making some tactical manoeuvre to get Green votes. I voted for Iraq, and camre to feel it was a very serious mistake and Corbyn and others had been right to oppose it - the West was attempting to impose a solution on a country that we didn't understand or even bother to try to understand. I've consistently opposed interventions since, notably in Libya (where it seems to me obvious in view of the chaos there that I was right) and Syria. I think a successful rival party on the left would be an existential threat to Labour (cf. France!), but that was just a factual point, not the main reason to change my own views.

    Southam feels that the priority should be to have a leader who takes us to success. Success for me is having government with worthwhile policies. I think that 2015-style campaigning (vote for us 'cos we're not the Tories and we'll give you some marginal benefits) is sterile and ultimately self-defeating. I'd consider voting for a centrist with a programme that seemed worthwhile. None of Corbyn's challengers IMO offered one.

    I agree that the focus on security in view of public doubts about Corbyn is going to make the rest of the campaign difficult. I think we would be safer with Corbyn than May in Number 10 for the reasons set out here

    http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/a-safe-foreign-policy-outsourcing-war-decisions-to-donald-trump/

    but I appreciate that it may be hard to persuade most voters of that. We can only do our best.

    But ultimately, as freetochoose says, I think one has to decide who and what one supports and then try to get a majority of seats for it. Not the other way round.

    The big problem that Labour has is that at a personal level a lot of its members do not now feel they need a Labour government - or, like Corbyn and most of his closest advisers, have never needed one - while at the same time not particularly fearing a Tory one. A Labour government would be nice, but as you say - not at any price. Having personally benefited hugely from a society and state that Labour played a significant role in creating I don't feel that way. But I have come to the conclusion that the party has left me behind. It does not represent people with my background and experiences anymore. Maybe it will again one day.

  • Options
    MalmesburyMalmesbury Posts: 44,436

    FPT

    I'm very concerned about the sort of country we're becoming if people are worried that shopkeepers are growing beards, that sounds flippant but its a serious point. I said on here yesterday that reprisals are inevitable, I might be wrong but its unlikely that Sean T will take direct action, in 1 or 2 places I wouldn't be so sure.

    We are in troubled times and there will be people who say Brexit is the catalyst to violence against foreigners when it is not connected in any way. There will be dozens of reports of "racist" attacks which I find abhorrent, but if Islamists choose to murder children and nothing is "seen" to be done, there will be problems.

    BNP, Britain First etc will be whipping people up into a frenzy, it is unconnected to Brexit in every way.

    Ah, you are falling into the trap that our "Betters" live in - that we are 30 seconds away from a pogrom, complete with pitchforks and torches.

    I think events in the last few years have demonstrated a ridiculous high bar for such a thing to happen.
  • Options
    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Mr. Sandpit, I was unaware of support cars on Friday. That being so... why no practice for F1? A tradition of its own now?
  • Options
    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    ydoethur said:


    Ydoethur is wrong to suggest that I was making some tactical manoeuvre to get Green votes.

    I'm not the one who said it. You said several times in 2015 that you were concerned at the seepage of votes to the Greens which you felt had cost you Broxtowe (which incidentally was wrong anyway and appeared to be borne of the shock of losing a seat you clearly expected to regain - not that you were alone in that, I expected you to do so as well and I was just as wrong) and you were voting Corbyn to correct that. You were warned at the time that this was a stupid idea, by SO, by me, by Alistair, but you ignored us. You are now reaping the disaster.

    If you wish to rewrite history a la Tony Blair to try and shut me up about you or Corbyn whom you so foolishly voted for, go ahead. It won't work, but that's your problem. It might demonstrate to other posters why I will not be voting Labour this time, having voted for them in 2015.

    As I have to get to work I cannot discuss this with you further now. I hope you have a productive and enjoyable morning.
    As the issue, iirc, was that the Labour + Green vote of 2015 would have been sufficient for Nick to have taken Broxtowe, then clearly Labour should stand aside and let the Greens have a clear run at the seat!
  • Options
    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Slightly bemused to wake up and find a series of posts debating my views, as though they mattered now. But for those who give a toss:

    Freetochoose is right that I support Corbyn's policies. I also like him and his political style very much, something I wouldn't say of everyone on the left.

    Ydoethur is wrong to suggest that I was making some tactical manoeuvre to get Green votes. I voted for Iraq, and camre to feel it was a very serious mistake and Corbyn and others had been right to oppose it - the West was attempting to impose a solution on a country that we didn't understand or even bother to try to understand. I've consistently opposed interventions since, notably in Libya (where it seems to me obvious in view of the chaos there that I was right) and Syria. I think a successful rival party on the left would be an existential threat to Labour (cf. France!), but that was just a factual point, not the main reason to change my own views.

    Southam feels that the priority should be to have a leader who takes us to success. Success for me is having government with worthwhile policies. I think that 2015-style campaigning (vote for us 'cos we're not the Tories and we'll give you some marginal benefits) is sterile and ultimately self-defeating. I'd consider voting for a centrist with a programme that seemed worthwhile. None of Corbyn's challengers IMO offered one.

    I agree that the focus on security in view of public doubts about Corbyn is going to make the rest of the campaign difficult. I think we would be safer with Corbyn than May in Number 10 for the reasons set out here

    http://www.nickpalmer.org.uk/a-safe-foreign-policy-outsourcing-war-decisions-to-donald-trump/

    but I appreciate that it may be hard to persuade most voters of that. We can only do our best.

    But ultimately, as freetochoose says, I think one has to decide who and what one supports and then try to get a majority of seats for it. Not the other way round.

    Well said Nick.

    I joined, campaigned and stood for UKIP, receiving all sorts of abuse along the way but I believed in what UKIP stood for and we achieved our aim.

    It seems these "centrists" - what a bland, nondescript word that is - believe in nothing but power. Good for you, but please don't sneer at people who can't be bought and sold.
    The one thing that Nick is completely right about, is that the other three candidates offered nothing to the Labour electorate in 2015. Their whole 'movement' had run out of steam and they had nothing left to say.

    Corbyn and his ilk will remain at the top of the party until the next Tony Blair appears, someone with a vision for the future. It's difficult from here to see who that might be.
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    LadyBucketLadyBucket Posts: 590
    As a Mancunian, I would now like the 24-hour media circus to leave. Enough is enough. It has never been more obvious what low-grade commentators we now have. It is just endless banal chatter.
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    freetochoosefreetochoose Posts: 1,107

    FPT

    I'm very concerned about the sort of country we're becoming if people are worried that shopkeepers are growing beards, that sounds flippant but its a serious point. I said on here yesterday that reprisals are inevitable, I might be wrong but its unlikely that Sean T will take direct action, in 1 or 2 places I wouldn't be so sure.

    We are in troubled times and there will be people who say Brexit is the catalyst to violence against foreigners when it is not connected in any way. There will be dozens of reports of "racist" attacks which I find abhorrent, but if Islamists choose to murder children and nothing is "seen" to be done, there will be problems.

    BNP, Britain First etc will be whipping people up into a frenzy, it is unconnected to Brexit in every way.

    Ah, you are falling into the trap that our "Betters" live in - that we are 30 seconds away from a pogrom, complete with pitchforks and torches.

    I think events in the last few years have demonstrated a ridiculous high bar for such a thing to happen.
    No, I'm saying that there will be a rise in attacks on foreign people and that Remainers will blame it on Brexit. It has nothing to do with Brexit, its to do with foreigners blowing up concerts.

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    YBarddCwscYBarddCwsc Posts: 7,172
    ydoethur said:



    It was an error. A stupid and avoidable error that around half the population were opposed to. An error that could and should have been foreseen. An error that has had terrible consequences.

    But to try and atone for it by electing Corbyn as leader is the equivalent of Stalin making amends for the Ukrainian famine of 1931 by shooting all the coal miners in the Donbass, blowing up every steel factory with the workers inside and ordering Moscow burned to the ground.

    There is failure - and there is compounding the failure.

    No-one even tries to defend the Iraq War anymore (or if they do it is some pussy-footing, like the War was right but we lost the Aftermath).

    But, the concomitant of Theresa being lucky is that Jeremy has been unlucky.

    First, the Labour centre-left refused to accept his election. Second, Brexit delivered to Labour an almost unplayable hand. And third, terrorism has now forced the election onto the worst arena of all for him.

    After all that, I kind of feel amazed that Jeremy has kept going.

    I won’t be voting for him, but I would buy his home-made jam.
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    dr_spyndr_spyn Posts: 11,288
    Young, impressionable students radicalised or manipulated by hotheads in a foreign land, went on to cause the deaths of millions by shooting heir to Habsburg empire in 1914.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908

    I don't think there is any chance now that the PM can pull this back to brexit, there isn't time and the mood has changed.

    It is clear that Labour are now itching to turn this around to "police cuts" and the PM's record as Home Secretary. Hence, the pinzer movement being orchestrated by Ms Balls-Cooper and Andy (walk on water) Burnham.

    I pose the question of whether Mr Burnham is overstepping the mark, regarding his remit as Mayor!

    I wonder if we will see a new manifesto commitment to more police or more money for intelligence services from TM?

    Easier for her to do since she hasn't costed things whereas Labour have at least attempted to do so - and therefore would need to propose a new tax to pay for it.
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    PulpstarPulpstar Posts: 75,929
    RobD said:
    Michael Fallon is 'disappointed' with the US.
    That's "utterly and completely furious" for anyone who needs the translation from British English.
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,797
    My only quibble is you state she called the election on the pretext of obtaining a mandate in one area but now looks set to gain that mandate for something entirely different. I think that underestimates the publics ability to consider the factors, particularly since you expected a very big win, and thus mandate, for May before the tragic events of this week.
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    RobD said:
    'm generally not a conspiracy nut but these leaks may be of benefit to the traditional politicians in the US. I find it difficult to believe that changing one or two people at the top of the intelligence tree means the whole edifice suddenly leaks like a sieve.

    I'm wondering if this is a play on depicting the Trump administration as untrustworthy and the leaks are part of a bigger domestic game.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Blue_rog said:

    RobD said:
    'm generally not a conspiracy nut but these leaks may be of benefit to the traditional politicians in the US. I find it difficult to believe that changing one or two people at the top of the intelligence tree means the whole edifice suddenly leaks like a sieve.

    I'm wondering if this is a play on depicting the Trump administration as untrustworthy and the leaks are part of a bigger domestic game.
    Except it's not coming from the White House, according to the BBC. Trump could easily say that this is a perfect example of how leaky the US intelligence service is.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited May 2017
    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:
    Michael Fallon is 'disappointed' with the US.
    That's "utterly and completely furious" for anyone who needs the translation from British English.
    I'm hoping Trump comments on it at the NATO meeting. *grabs popcorn*
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    Blue_rogBlue_rog Posts: 2,019
    RobD said:

    Blue_rog said:

    RobD said:
    'm generally not a conspiracy nut but these leaks may be of benefit to the traditional politicians in the US. I find it difficult to believe that changing one or two people at the top of the intelligence tree means the whole edifice suddenly leaks like a sieve.

    I'm wondering if this is a play on depicting the Trump administration as untrustworthy and the leaks are part of a bigger domestic game.
    Except it's not coming from the White House, according to the BBC. Trump could easily say that this is a perfect example of how leaky the US intelligence service is.
    That's what I meant. The leaks being orchestrated from Capital Hill
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    CarlottaVanceCarlottaVance Posts: 59,703
    RobD said:
    Police investigating the Manchester Arena bomb attack have stopped sharing information with the US after leaks to the media, the BBC understands.
    UK officials were outraged when photos appearing to show debris from the attack appeared in the New York Times.


    And who can blame them?
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898

    Mr. Sandpit, I was unaware of support cars on Friday. That being so... why no practice for F1? A tradition of its own now?

    Yes, I think it started a few years back as the support races increased in number. This year we have F2, Formula Renault and Porsche Supercup supporting - the latter are well worth watching, they always have plenty of incidents.

    Weekend schedule, that I dug out for @Roger yesterday. I think he's going to watch today, lucky bugger.
    https://www.grandprixevents.com/f1-races/monaco/race-program-monaco

    Incidentally, the moveable nature of the holiday always causes the F1 schedulers problems. Basically, it's the first race written into the schedule every year, and they have to organise all the other races around it.

    The Indy 500 also always takes place on the same day, conveniently a couple of hours after the F1 finishes at 5pm UK time. Alonso starts 5th in that race on Sunday.
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    rkrkrkrkrkrk Posts: 7,908
    Blue_rog said:

    RobD said:
    'm generally not a conspiracy nut but these leaks may be of benefit to the traditional politicians in the US. I find it difficult to believe that changing one or two people at the top of the intelligence tree means the whole edifice suddenly leaks like a sieve.

    I'm wondering if this is a play on depicting the Trump administration as untrustworthy and the leaks are part of a bigger domestic game.
    It's possible its an attempt to damage Trump. I was wondering that too.
    I doubt it's very organised​ though.


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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    Blue_rog said:

    RobD said:

    Blue_rog said:

    RobD said:
    'm generally not a conspiracy nut but these leaks may be of benefit to the traditional politicians in the US. I find it difficult to believe that changing one or two people at the top of the intelligence tree means the whole edifice suddenly leaks like a sieve.

    I'm wondering if this is a play on depicting the Trump administration as untrustworthy and the leaks are part of a bigger domestic game.
    Except it's not coming from the White House, according to the BBC. Trump could easily say that this is a perfect example of how leaky the US intelligence service is.
    That's what I meant. The leaks being orchestrated from Capital Hill
    If they wanted to discredit Trump, surely they should make it look like the leaks are coming from there?
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    AlistairAlistair Posts: 23,670
    nunu said:

    Pulpstar said:

    Well I think this thread tells us all we need to know about why so many terrorists slip through the net.

    No it doesn't. "the muslim community" reported the Manchester bombing several times and he "slipped through the net".

    Anyway, a Congressional candidate just did this to a guardian reporter, I know the Guardian hey are anooying but .......

    https://twitter.com/Bencjacobs/status/867517225820966912
    And then fled the scene when police started taking statements. He's been charged with misdemenour assault apparently
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.

    Crimes will always be committed. Reducing the numbers of those tasked with preventing and solving them may not be the best move. We need the debate. But with no opposition we won't get it. No-one serious believes Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn have anything sensible to say about security.

    Hasn't crime been on a downward trend though?
    Not all crimes:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39215668
    It's non-violent crime that has taken the big fall - burglarly, car theft etc. - thanks to technology (cars that are harder to start and easier to track, DNA testing, cctv, internet cams) - it's been happening across the world since the mid-90s so not really tied to any domestic change in policing or spending. There is also a view that technology has 'diverted' some criminals into online crime, which isn't so easily measured.

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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    rkrkrk said:

    I don't think there is any chance now that the PM can pull this back to brexit, there isn't time and the mood has changed.

    It is clear that Labour are now itching to turn this around to "police cuts" and the PM's record as Home Secretary. Hence, the pinzer movement being orchestrated by Ms Balls-Cooper and Andy (walk on water) Burnham.

    I pose the question of whether Mr Burnham is overstepping the mark, regarding his remit as Mayor!

    I wonder if we will see a new manifesto commitment to more police or more money for intelligence services from TM?

    Easier for her to do since she hasn't costed things whereas Labour have at least attempted to do so - and therefore would need to propose a new tax to pay for it.
    Give some of the foreign aid budget to MI6. ;)
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    FF43FF43 Posts: 15,723
    Theresa May knows what she's doing on security. Unlike Brexit. It's not just that Corbyn can't be trusted. I don't think she enjoys Brexit and seems easily distracted from it. She doesn't like situations where she is not in control and where you have to make the least unsatisfactory compromise, which is Brexit. The ideal, but unlikely, outcome is that she concentrates on security issues and delegates Brexit to someone like Hammond. A more be likely outcome is that she delegates to Davies, who is generally more competent than she is, but needs steering. The most likely outcome unfortunately is that no-one pushes Brexit forward to a reasonable conclusion
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    Morris_DancerMorris_Dancer Posts: 60,987
    Can't blame Manchester police for ceasing to share information. The leaks are totally unacceptable.

    Mr. Rog, it might be that sort of game-playing, but it's so short-sighted and stupid it's deeply disappointing.
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    NickPalmerNickPalmer Posts: 21,343
    I won't pursue the personal debate further as I can't imagine it's of general interest, but it's certainly true that lots of Labour members who are not always left-wing will not vote to replace Corbyn after a possible election defeat unless someone offers an attractive alternative. To write all of us off as deluded zealots misses the point and is self-defeating for centrists.
    Anyway, we have an election to fight now: time to worry about what happens next thereafter.

    In the meantime, there's an interesting discussion here of the challenges faced by voters and MPs in our electronic age:

    https://www.demos.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/Signal-and-Noise-Demos.pdf

    At first skim, I think they're right about the problem, but I don't instantly see that their dashboards etc. solve it. But perhaps I've not studied it enough?
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289
    rkrkrk said:



    If there had been no Iraq War, there would be no Jeremy.

    Not so sure about that. I think it's more the financial crisis than Iraq.

    Globally many centre left parties have collapsed and in many cases been supplanted by more left wing alternatives. In the UK because of our system that battle has taken place within the Labour party rather than seen the Labour party replaced.
    Ditto on the right, with the energy that went into UKIP/Brexit now subsumed back into the Tory Party.
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    rottenboroughrottenborough Posts: 58,257
    sky reporting the bomber was in germany just before attack.
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    SandpitSandpit Posts: 49,898
    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:
    Michael Fallon is 'disappointed' with the US.
    That's "utterly and completely furious" for anyone who needs the translation from British English.
    I'm hoping Trump comments on it at the NATO meeting. *grabs popcorn*
    I think Trump is going to be on the receiving end of comments about it, from Mrs May.

    Fallon' diplomatic language hides furious anger at how pictures of a British crime scene ended up in an American newspaper within 24 hours.
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    RobDRobD Posts: 58,969
    edited May 2017
    Sandpit said:

    RobD said:

    Pulpstar said:

    RobD said:
    Michael Fallon is 'disappointed' with the US.
    That's "utterly and completely furious" for anyone who needs the translation from British English.
    I'm hoping Trump comments on it at the NATO meeting. *grabs popcorn*
    I think Trump is going to be on the receiving end of comments about it, from Mrs May.

    Fallon' diplomatic language hides furious anger at how pictures of a British crime scene ended up in an American newspaper within 24 hours.
    She might find he is in agreement with her about how leaky they are. Given it's Trump, we might see him badmouthing his own intelligence services at a press conference :p
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    Ishmael_ZIshmael_Z Posts: 8,981
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.

    Crimes will always be committed. Reducing the numbers of those tasked with preventing and solving them may not be the best move. We need the debate. But with no opposition we won't get it. No-one serious believes Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn have anything sensible to say about security.

    Hasn't crime been on a downward trend though?
    Not all crimes:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39215668
    It's non-violent crime that has taken the big fall - burglarly, car theft etc. - thanks to technology (cars that are harder to start and easier to track, DNA testing, cctv, internet cams) - it's been happening across the world since the mid-90s so not really tied to any domestic change in policing or spending. There is also a view that technology has 'diverted' some criminals into online crime, which isn't so easily measured.

    Tis also that stuff doesn't cost anything anymore. 1983 vhs recorder £3500 nominal, 2017 Sony dvd recorder £50 or if you want second hand, £30 on ebay, so who would buy one off a bloke in the pub?
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    kle4kle4 Posts: 91,797

    ydoethur said:



    It was an error. A stupid and avoidable error that around half the population were opposed to. An error that could and should have been foreseen. An error that has had terrible consequences.

    But to try and atone for it by electing Corbyn as leader is the equivalent of Stalin making amends for the Ukrainian famine of 1931 by shooting all the coal miners in the Donbass, blowing up every steel factory with the workers inside and ordering Moscow burned to the ground.

    There is failure - and there is compounding the failure.

    No-one even tries to defend the Iraq War anymore (or if they do it is some pussy-footing, like the War was right but we lost the Aftermath).

    But, the concomitant of Theresa being lucky is that Jeremy has been unlucky.

    First, the Labour centre-left refused to accept his election. Second, Brexit delivered to Labour an almost unplayable hand. And third, terrorism has now forced the election onto the worst arena of all for him.

    After all that, I kind of feel amazed that Jeremy has kept going.

    I won’t be voting for him, but I would buy his home-made jam.
    He is not up to the job of leader if he cannot get a grip on his party, that they won't let him is still his failure. Stubbornness in remaining as he has has also progressed beyond the admirable. That said, his resilience and discipline has been impressive, and labours rise lately has not been solely down to poor ld campaigning and strength of the labour brand, he has to so ecextebt inspired people. I regret that as I think he's bad for labour, but I'll give him that much.
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    JosiasJessopJosiasJessop Posts: 39,035
    IanB2 said:

    RobD said:

    RobD said:

    A very good article by Mr Meeks. It should be about Brexit, but I cannot see it being so. The Manchester outrage will be on our TV;s for some while with the aftermath .The Tories will undoubtedly hammer home the Labour leadership as security risks, after all its not as tho it isn't true.

    Yep - so the fact that Theresa May cut police numbers, and the number of armed police by 10%, goes under-reported and undebated. That's what having no opposition does. We are all wose off as a result.

    Higher numbers didn't seem to make much difference in 2005. If anything, more needs to be spent on the intelligence services - more eyes to keep an eye on their watchlist.

    Crimes will always be committed. Reducing the numbers of those tasked with preventing and solving them may not be the best move. We need the debate. But with no opposition we won't get it. No-one serious believes Diane Abbott or Jeremy Corbyn have anything sensible to say about security.

    Hasn't crime been on a downward trend though?
    Not all crimes:

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-39215668
    It's non-violent crime that has taken the big fall - burglarly, car theft etc. - thanks to technology (cars that are harder to start and easier to track, DNA testing, cctv, internet cams) - it's been happening across the world since the mid-90s so not really tied to any domestic change in policing or spending. There is also a view that technology has 'diverted' some criminals into online crime, which isn't so easily measured.
    One law I'd like to be brought in is that any public institution (e.g. councils, hospitals etc) or publicly-traded company (e.g. banks) need to disclose every year an estimate of how much money has been lost to cybercrime - either directly or indirectly.

    Rumours are that the figures for banks alone are shocking. And given the stupidity banks show (e.g. Barclays' voice biometric verification), it's not surprise.
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    SquareRootSquareRoot Posts: 7,095

    ydoethur said:



    It was an error. A stupid and avoidable error that around half the population were opposed to. An error that could and should have been foreseen. An error that has had terrible consequences.

    But to try and atone for it by electing Corbyn as leader is the equivalent of Stalin making amends for the Ukrainian famine of 1931 by shooting all the coal miners in the Donbass, blowing up every steel factory with the workers inside and ordering Moscow burned to the ground.

    There is failure - and there is compounding the failure.

    No-one even tries to defend the Iraq War anymore (or if they do it is some pussy-footing, like the War was right but we lost the Aftermath).

    But, the concomitant of Theresa being lucky is that Jeremy has been unlucky.

    First, the Labour centre-left refused to accept his election. Second, Brexit delivered to Labour an almost unplayable hand. And third, terrorism has now forced the election onto the worst arena of all for him.

    After all that, I kind of feel amazed that Jeremy has kept going.

    I won’t be voting for him, but I would buy his home-made jam.

    Corbyn believes in his own invincibility. He will still be directing his "armies" long after the war has been lost. His bunker has been prepared. They will have to smoke him out. He aint quitting evah..
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    HYUFDHYUFD Posts: 117,028
    Theresa May set out her plans to leave the single market and customs union, reduce payments to the EU, control free movement and regain sovereignty months ago. If staying in the single market is so important to you you can vote LD who have clearly committed to doing so at the cost of leaving free movement much as it is now. The fact few voters are likely to do so according to polls suggests May will have a mandate for her Brexit position once the results are in and until an opposition party starts to really rise in the polls with a pro single market position that will remain the case
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    IanB2IanB2 Posts: 47,289

    FPT

    I'm very concerned about the sort of country we're becoming if people are worried that shopkeepers are growing beards, that sounds flippant but its a serious point. I said on here yesterday that reprisals are inevitable, I might be wrong but its unlikely that Sean T will take direct action, in 1 or 2 places I wouldn't be so sure.

    We are in troubled times and there will be people who say Brexit is the catalyst to violence against foreigners when it is not connected in any way. There will be dozens of reports of "racist" attacks which I find abhorrent, but if Islamists choose to murder children and nothing is "seen" to be done, there will be problems.

    BNP, Britain First etc will be whipping people up into a frenzy, it is unconnected to Brexit in every way.

    Ah, you are falling into the trap that our "Betters" live in - that we are 30 seconds away from a pogrom, complete with pitchforks and torches.

    I think events in the last few years have demonstrated a ridiculous high bar for such a thing to happen.
    No, I'm saying that there will be a rise in attacks on foreign people and that Remainers will blame it on Brexit. It has nothing to do with Brexit, its to do with foreigners blowing up concerts.

    *foreigners* ?
This discussion has been closed.